Today on the Brave In Business podcast, Bec chats with Trish Johnstone of Oath + Stone.

Since graduating from the University of Canberra in 2007 with a Bachelor of Graphic Design, Trish Johnstone has worked across a number of industries in both full service and in-house design team environments. She started Oath + Stone in 2017,  a Canberra based graphic design studio for small and medium sized businesses. Artistic and analytical at heart, she gets to know you and your business in a way that allows her to make informed decisions that directly contribute to your success. Trish shares experiences from her career and personal life that has made her call upon her courage and bravery and challenge herself.

Find Trish Johnstone here:

• Oath + Stone Website
• Instagram
• Facebook

16. Trish Johnstone from Oath + Stone - Being Brave and Letting Go of Control - Transcript

Hi, I'm Bec McFarlane from popular business and popular career. In this podcast, I'll be speaking to entrepreneurs who have overcome adversity, made difficult decisions, challenged the status quo and achieved amazing things in their businesses. welcome to Braven business. Since graduating from the University of Canberra in 2007 with a bachelor of graphic design, Trish Johnston has worked across a number of industries in both full service and in-house design team environments. She started Oath and Stone in 2017, artistic and analytical at heart. She gets to know you and your business in a way that allows her to make informed decisions that directly contribute to your success. Trish contributes to the Canberra design industry through mentoring and lecturing at the University of Canberra. Hey, Trish, welcome to brave in business. It's so lovely to have you here. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. They're excellent. And I know just from having a look at your notes that there is a lot that we have to talk about and things that you've done that have been quite brave in your business. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I'm really excited, too. I just love what you've done on the podcast and talking about I guess these points that aren't as glamorous in business that you know, being brave business, I think, is one of the most thing. It's a huge part of it. It's, you know, going and doing things on your own and creating a life that you want and and being brave or courageous is sort of at the heart of that. So yeah, I'm really excited to chat today. This is my first podcast. So I'm excited to be here with you today. Very cool. You're definitely in safe hands. And I love what you just said about bravery not being glamorous, but to agree with you. It's, um, beautiful and messy and delicious, but, uh, definitely not glamorous most of the time, anyway, Um so for the listeners who don't know you, I would love for you to start by just telling us a little bit about your business and how you got to where you are today. So Oak Stone is a graphic design studio based in Canberra, and we support small and medium sized businesses in their graphic design and marketing. We do have a couple of bigger players on the board, but the typical client that we have in in the studio they have a footprint of so between one and 20 team members and mostly Canberra based. But we do work a little bit in, uh, interstate clients as well. fantastic, and I've got to say since the moment that I met you, which I think it was quite a few years ago. Now, at a business chicks event, Um, I have just been in love with your branding, and I actually quite often send people over to your instagram to take a look so gorgeous because we rebranded, uh, earlier in the year, too. Oh, really? Uh, we've been in business for five years now, and it got to the point where, um I I don't think there was anything particularly wrong with that branding it, but I just felt that it didn't reflect. Probably when I first met you at business chicks, I I remember that, um the business has evolved, and I thought time to, uh, to reflect that in the branding. So earlier in February, we engaged just some friends over at another studio and said, You know, we can't do this on our own. We're too close to it. You need to reflect it back to us. And we're really happy with, I guess, new This year, we've really embraced kind of a new mentality around our identity and and what we're capable of, and it's really exciting. So, um, thank you for sending people to my instagram. That's great. Well, it sounds as though I need to get across there and actually have a little refresher. Um, I'm not the, uh not the queen of Instagram at all. Uh, I do try. I go through phases, but most of us, I just find it very, very overwhelming. um but I'm sure that whatever you have come up with will be absolutely glorious because, as I say, I mean that your your old for ending now was, um, just purely delightful. Thank you. I wonder. If you could maybe expand a little bit more on what it was actually like to outsource your branding to someone else when that's like your your whole business, that's kind of the thing that you usually do, right, I know it was some I think it's interesting, because I So we went to new best friends. Uh, they're another graphic design studio in Canberra and they, um, wonderful ladies over there. And we I've known them for a while, and And it it was interesting being on the other side, like on the quiet side of, um, the branding process. Something we do literally every day. You know, we ask ourselves, Are we in line with The client's brand are we are being true to it. I'm speaking in the right voice and I went to the the girls up there and I said, I'm really confused because there's, you know, I guess it's Trish the person and then Trish the graphic designer or O and Stone with brand. You know, Trish, the person I I love, um, the perfection of just a a white and blue dollar hay cake plate and I But I also love me on clients, and I love being loud, but I'm also an introvert. So how does that? It seems like it's not very, um, you know how How did how can one person or one business feed both and not be meticulously designed? But also wanna say what everyone's thinking? And they were just able to distil that into, um I guess a a grown up version of the brand that we've been using and evolved it. And doing things that I never would have thought of and, uh, reflecting that back to us. So it was a really great experience because they could see things that I couldn't. And by the time I showed it around to a couple of clients, they went, yes, they've nailed it so but it was very, uh it was a very informal experience, but I'm really glad we did it because we never would have come up with what they did. Um, and it's it's just it's working so far, So I love it. I love we love our new look. We love our direction, and we love the work that we're doing. So it's, um but yeah, it was, um, sort of like when I was a personal trainer, working fitness. I had a personal trainer as well. And everyone Oh, can't you just train yourself? And I'm like, Oh, I just I sort of want to switch off and just be told what to do. You know, I want someone else to sort of tell me what I need, But only in that situation a trainer having a trainer, I guess, or a business coach leading a business coach. And that's what I was thinking. I mean, you know, I I do business coaching is part of popular business, but I also have my own business coach and have had for many years, so probably won't be without one. Uh, I really do find it really valuable, but I think you know what you're sharing today already. You know, we're only minutes into this podcast, and already I feel like there's been such a lesson for me that I have absolutely heard before. And I may need to hear again. Um, but around some of that ability to let goals control, and recently, my O B M Voucher has been on the podcast before. Um, she had a sales page designed for one of her programmes, and I remember when she told me that she was going to do that and I sort of went, Oh, I could never you know, I could never, ever outsource my sales page design because only I can do that. and then you know, she kind of nodded her head at me in frustration, as she often does. But, um, when her sales page came back, it was absolutely exquisite. And I know I said to her, Well, maybe there is something to this, you know. And so I guess hearing a similar experience from you it makes me wonder whether this might be like an area where I need to kind of step up in the bravery department and really maybe let go and and see the way that my brand or what I'm trying to achieve could actually be perceived by somebody else. Yeah, don't get me wrong. I find it very, very hard. in my personal and my business life. I find it Um, you, um almost let someone take care of me. Yeah, and I just you know, I do it myself, or it'd be quicker if I just do it. Um, but it did get to a point where I was just drowning in the business. I just couldn't, um I was doing so many 1% things that were adding up to 50% of my day. that I just I I couldn't physically mentally couldn't get things done. So that's when um, Carlie my e A. She was my first hire and and she just proved herself to be so reliable. and so proficient at her craft and and to, uh, I I find myself sometimes, like, oh, I'll just do this and this She's like, I can do that. I'm like, Oh, so I have to sort of take a breath and actually go well, is this principle dependent? Because there were so many non principal dependencies in my business that it was really scary. But for the first couple of months, I was like, Oh, someone like, you know, this is my baby. This is that's my reputation and I'll just do it myself. Um, but now I'm like, What can I give to Karl? I love that. And it's almost like a little challenge. I give myself to be like, Oh, what's the least amount of stuff I could do that Kylie take out. But I do. I do find it very hard and And even in my personal life, I find my, um uh like, if a girlfriend says I've booked us a table at 7. 30 we're having noodles. I'll see you there. I'm like, Oh, I just feel so nurtured and just and so, like I've made a booking or um oh, you said you liked this, So I've ordered you one as well. Or if someone just orders for the table Oh, it's just like the love language. Yeah, I feel so nurtured because someone taking care of me, you know, I don't have to make a decision, I think, but, um, I do find it My first, Uh I guess tendencies. Oh, I don't want to bother you. I just do it myself. Yeah, I I found it was a point where I either stay where I am in business, and I literally have only got a certain amount of hours in the day, and I will only ever achieve this much. Or I can automate X y Z. I can bring someone into the fold and bring two people into the fold and let's see what the possibilities are. But it's a very uncomfortable space for me, so I would not. I haven't got all the answers. Well, you're definitely speaking my language with the automation and the outsourcing. That's definitely my jam and the space that I love to hang out. And I find that I am getting a lot better at some of that more day to day like surface level, kind of delegating, and and and, I guess more so than delegating, like asking for help but I do think that sometimes with some of those big, bigger projects like, you know, creative when it is so tied to the identity of the business, or, as you say, your reputation, Um, I think that's where I find those most like prickly edges where it's like, Oh, and then the questions kind of come in of of thinking like Why? You know, like, Why would I You know, I've I've personally to use branding as an example. I've done the branding of all of my businesses myself, and I've never hired anybody else to do that. And the thought of it, absolutely. just like, fresh and sweet But I think as well today, after sharing what you've shared, there is also this, like little bit of excitement, peeping through thinking like yeah, so I know how I would do it. but I've never actually thought about how somebody else would do it or what somebody else might be able to like you say, like, push some of those boundaries and do something the way that you would never have thought of doing it yourself. And it's a lot in the work that we do. Um, I guess being on the other side on the I guess the the designer side. A lot of our clients say it's not what I would have picked, but if You've captured me so well. Yeah. My good friend was briefing me on her personal brand. uh, she just left the Canberra Times, and she was looking for, I guess, a brand that she could put forward as a copywriter and a journalist. And and I said to her, What colour do you, uh, you know, what colour do you love? Like? Purple and castles. And she said, If I if you cut me open, I'd leave Glitter. Yes, that's just It was so her and I had that in the back of my mind. It wasn't a very conventional way of briefing me. Yeah, um but it got to the point where when I presented the first concepts to her. You know, it was unicorns and rainbows and glitter, but it was still a very authentic professional version of that, uh, that she just She said, I don't know how you took that. And turned it into a logo, and I don't know how. Um, like, you just see me, You see who I am and you see the energy I'm putting out of the world. And you captured that. And it wasn't until a good friend of mine a client said to me, How do you take the half baked ideas that I get? It's these weird briefs about whether it's glitter or, you know, um, I want I, uh this This movie crossed with this colour crossed with this brand of car, but also I want it to be sung. She's like I just some of the briefs I gave you were horrendous. Yeah, And it wasn't until then that I realised that that's my special power. I just so cool. I start seeing colours of pops. You know, I've already designed it in my head. And so you're telling me so when bree said that if you cut her open, she'd bleed glitter, I just from that way that I knew exactly what it was gonna look like. Yeah, but I guess the the thing that really resonated with me was the fact that she said, you just see me, This is who I am and you come in there and I I don't think she could have done that herself. And it takes someone else to reflect that back to you and and reflect what they admire about you. uh, their relationship with you as well. So it is a vulnerable place to be in. And so I had absolute. I went through a roller coaster of emotions, uh, with Jacinta branding us. But in the end, I just went, No, this isn't the fact that so I wasn't sure if I liked it. In the beginning, she sent the logos and I was like, Oh, this is really different to what I would have done. And I realised it wasn't that I didn't like it. It's just that I didn't do it. Yeah, And it was this, um uh, almost battle against wall like, Is that me? And does she really know me? And I was like, No, it's just this uncomfortable space that I had never been in before. And then I just handed myself over to it. That's we've never looked better. So, um, but yeah, it's really hard. Yeah, I love it, though. I love it. I'm like I'm already in my mind. I'm like, I'm just buzzing. It's so, so cool. And what an incredible skill as well, Like what you've just shared about. You know, you just see me like I I can't think of a better compliment that a client could give you. It's just amazing. I do feel really That's the, um, when they say that or you've nailed it. That's what I get up and go to work for. That's that just makes me yeah, that's that's what I work towards. That's so great. So you've shared, I guess One really brave thing already that you've done in business, which, you know, as we've talked about, like outsourcing your own branding. It's super cool. I'd love to just know, like when you hear that phrase brave in business, What does that mean to you? well, like any good designer, I'm gonna take your brace, and I'm gonna change it, not change it. But I I I wonder whether I could, uh, swap the word bravery. So, uh, courage, please. Because I think that courage is not, uh, The absence of sea, um, acting in spite of it, Yeah. Never met anyone who was not scared of anything where either we're scared of losing a family member or scared of heights or in my case. I scared of people dressed in costumes at movie world like it's just in a or Moss, you know, and we're all scared of something. But we, um you know, we get in the elevator or we take our kids to movie world, or uh, you know, we we act in spite of it. And I think in all the times that I've been called to be brave or courageous in business or in life, it's not that I wasn't scared. It was the fact that I I did it anyway. And then I'm working out for the best. So I think, um, there have been times where I've had to, Be I've had to be brave. But, um, I think courage is a word that resonates better with me because it reminds me that, um, I think there's a one of my favourite quotes is courage doesn't always roar. It's a quiet voice at the end of the day, it says I'll try again tomorrow. And for me, it's like, Well, you know what? Today was a write off today. Wasn't a great day. Yeah, maybe I didn't tackle that as well as I could be. I could have. But you know what? Tomorrow's a new day, and tomorrow I'm gonna try again instead of giving up. So I think, um, yeah, courage is a word that really resonates with me. But, um, there have been times where I've had to be really Um, you know, leaving jobs with nowhere to go. But I always had a plan. I never left a job without some sort of structure to, you know, I knew I could support myself for two or three months. Um and, I I think to be successful or successful in my as my personal definition of success, I've had to get really good at quitting. Yeah, I I'm a pretty good quitter, but I've always got a plan to go along with the quitting. Um, and I think that we quitting is sometimes disguised as failure, because I think that we don't quit. Enough. Yeah, I think we hold on to these things because we're supposed to be brave and courageous, and I'm gonna persevere. And I'm going to, um, keep lobbying this idea until it, you know, because it has to work. But, you know, If you're playing the violin and you're better suited to the clarinet, quitting the violin could be the best thing you ever do. Um, I think that we there's this sort of mentality around or You know, don't be a quitter, and you've got to be brave and you've gotta para on through. But you know, the amount of jobs I've quit and it's been the best thing that I've ever done. I know it's quite interesting, And I wonder whether it's actually part of your, um, you know, personality or behavioural profile. Uh, one of the things that I do in my business is that I talk a lot about disc behavioural profiling. and I'm really interested in human behaviour and why we do things and how it all kind of packages us together as these individuals that we are. And I think in your bio you mentioned that you are both analytical and creative, and I think that almost what you're describing here is like there is that analytical part of you that's like, got the plan and that, you know, knows that, There is a logical way of moving through this, whereas then you've got the creative part of you that kind of goes, Don't worry about it like it's OK. Like I I will. I will find a way. I will create experiment, innovate. You know, do whatever I need to do in order to make sure that we're OK. I think that's spot on because my husband lucky he describes me as a calculated risk taker. I said to him like, Oh, I just you know, I go with the flow and I'm so easy Breezy. But he's like, you are. Um, you know, on Instagram where it's like, I'm happy to go with the flow. But what time does the flow start? Yes, When I left, I was working as a designer in an agency, and I just just wasn't happy. Just wasn't It was burning out big time, and I I needed to leave for my health. I just I wanted to try new things, that's what I, um I studied in the fitness industry and I had a big break and just creatively I was burning out, and the weekend before I resigned I went to a coffee shop and I sat down and I wrote a list of all my expenses of how much I had in the bank, and I knew I could support myself for three months while I studied, and I made a list of all the parameters and the the structure and the safety net that I had, even though I was throwing the safety net out, that we'd do with a full time job. Um, but it wasn't until then that I went, You know what? Actually, this can work, and now I have, uh, the easy, breathy part can happen where I can I can leave my job because it's never just as simple as leaving a job. It's, um, in every job that I've done. I've I've had an exit strategy, but then, once I have that and once I've made up my mind, I do it very quickly. So I think you're right. It's, um it's like when you go on holiday for me. Um, We say we're going to a place we've never been before or research about the town or what they What's there to do? What's the transport like? And, you know, if we're going overseas, you know, where are the hotspots to visit that? Where shouldn't we go and everything? And then, I can wing it from there. Yeah, I know what the possibilities are. And, you know, we could do one of five things on any given day, but at least I know what those five things are. So, yeah, I love it. Yeah, it's a beautiful blend. that kind of gives you the best of both worlds, right? Yeah, it's, um it's sort of like I mentioned to you before. I'm 39 weeks pregnant, and I'm excited for baby to hopefully come next week. But what I've worked out is I guess the the anxiety that I've had in the past and the anxiety that I, uh, now manage on a daily basis to a lesser extent of, or just general stress in the business, um, it's actually what has protected me, uh, for a long time. And and it might sound strange, but I guess how I've I've resolved myself that, you know, in the next week I'm gonna have to do something really hard and something that I've never done before. It's gonna be painful. It's gonna be hard, but it's gonna be 2 to 3 days of my life. And there is an epic sight and there's a prize at the end of it, which is the But I have imagined every single scenario. What happened? being in the hospital and having aromatherapy and, uh, you know, a gentle banter with the midwives that you know, the the most beautiful, swift pain free, though on the other end of the spectrum, I've also imagined the crece i g a. Where I, you know, my waters break in the aisle and I befriend the 16 year old checkout chicken. We're forever fond for life. Because of this experience, we've had everyone in the supermarket cheers when the they the most horrendous situation you could be in. I've imagined that so on a scale from, like, worst case scenario to best case scenario I've I've imagined that and I've prepared myself for it. And now I can sit back and see what the universe is gonna offer me. So it's but that protection that, um, my rings for me I've actually it. I've realised it's my superpower that in the times where I am stressed or I have a deadline or I need to problem solve and I need to get creative. Um, the old noggin thinks about Well, you could do this. This, this, this, this, this this and any one of those scenarios could work. So now go and implement it. but it's I've actually turned it into something. And instead of working against it, I realised that it actually works very well for me in terms of organisation and, um, protection almost. Yeah, so juicy. So I've got three things I wanna say to you. The first is Oh, my God, I love you. I love all of your scenarios. I just think it's absolutely magical. And I can relate so much. Um Secondly, I really hope that you get your beautiful room. There are people I'm really bothered to think, And, um And third, is that, you know, we haven't really spoken about anxieties here on the podcast before in relation to bravery. And I think what you've just brought up is really, really interesting. I, um you know, I have anxiety myself. I've always been quite an anxious person, And I I guess I've I've understood particularly like from that logical perspective that my anxiety is there to try and protect me and that you know, it's my lizard brain and all of these kinds of things. Uh, but I've never really thought about it in the way that that you've just described it. And it's something that I'm definitely going to reflect on after this episode. because you're absolutely right. You know, when you do have that anxious brain and you are going through all of the scenarios, there is that element of lack of feeling, like you're prepared for anything because you've already kind of you know, gone down all of the rabbit holes to see what the risks are. And and by the time you do that, I think there is a level of acceptance that you get to where you kind of go. Yeah, OK. And, um, you know, I'm not sure whether I've actually spoken about it, uh, on the podcast before, Uh, but there is a book called How To Stop Worrying and Start Living. And it's something that, you know, I To be honest, I haven't even read the whole book. Um, I read I read the parts that mattered, and it shared a a kind of process that you can go through, which is actually, like, kind of forcing yourself down those rabbit holes to say, Like, what would be the worst case scenario? Because, you know, for for most of us who live the the privileged lives that we live, whatever risks that we're planning on taking and not going to end up with us. you know, dead or living in a cardboard box on the side of the road. So it's almost like whatever else you throw at me like, it's gonna be OK, because because it has to be right, the amount of times it's hard for people to understand, I guess the the wiring of of both our brains when I I guess people would go, Well, why would you put yourself through all that unnecessary thought that thought pattern that worst case scenario goes to, um, you know, just just turn up and see how it goes. And I, um and it's hard for I guess people who haven't experienced anxious moments in their life to to understand, I guess why our brains work that way. And he switched it in the last probably 55 years, especially having run the business. But someone said, Well, yes, well, I said, you know, what's the what's the worst that could happen? and then they go, Yeah, but what's the best that could happen? So if we're going to imagine this rabbit hole of horrible things happening is happening to us, so Uh, we're ready for that. Then what about being ready for the awesome stuff that's gonna come, too? And my husband said to me that I was about to leave my job and, uh, the last job that I had And I said, What if it doesn't work like What if it like, what if people laugh at me or what if people, you know, think I'm silly? And what if it doesn't work? And he goes we just get a job. Yeah, very employable. And I was like, Oh, yeah, I have other skills. Like and, um, you know, my mind goes to Oh, I guess I could deliver pizzas or I could work at the as well. But you could just walk back into a job that you like, the one you just had. You might not be as happy, but, like, don't don't go to deliver it. There's nothing wrong with delivering pizzas, but it was like you could go and work in an office again, like, Yeah, you're mostly educated. You're very like you're You're smart. You're clue. Like Worst case scenario, you get a job. And I was like, Oh, yeah, God. Yeah. it's amazing how we forget that one, right? And I think, um, because my husband and I, uh, so lucky ran a business. So when we first met, uh, he was running, he's a real estate shop. He was running a business. And then we got together, and, um, I was working in the fitness industry, and then we both went into around the time we got married. We went into full time jobs and we were employed by other people. and that was really good at the time, because it gave us some stability around buying the house, going on our honeymoon, having to leave. So we had a bit of a break of you know we were employed by people, but then we just got these itchy feet, and I think we're similar in the way like our funeral. Um, destiny is, I guess, And I resigned from my job and then two up two weeks later, he resigned from his. So, yeah, a lot of our friends were like, You mean you, I don't. You quit what we're like, it'll be fine, Don't worry. But that's not to say that my mind didn't go far. where I'm sitting right now to homeless in three steps. Yeah, single day. You know, I'm I'm people are gonna last me and I won't get any work. And then I won't have any money. And then we can't pay the mortgage, and then we get to be homeless and, well, we got to homeless really quickly, right? You realise that there are actually, like, a few more steps involved and that, probably someone that you know would let you sleep on their couch before it got to a point where you are living in a cardboard box. I appreciate you saying that because in my homeless vision we are in a cardboard box on the curb like it's not couch surfing. It's not in a hotel, it's on the curb, and I just go how did I get there so quickly? It would take six months for us to get to from business to home. I feel you. I feel you. So with that in mind, I guess, you know, and we've I've spoken to a few people here on the podcast who have had full time jobs, and then they've gone into business and, you know, I'm I'm the same. um, was starting your business like, Is that the bravest thing that you've done in business so far? Or is there something else that you'd like to tell us about? I think ultimately it is. Um, I think I've left a few jobs that just weren't serving me at the time. And I think recognising that you're in a situation that you either you weren't happy or The job's not getting you to where you wanna be or I guess you don't. Your values don't align with where you're working. And there've been a couple of times where I've just gone. You know what, um, again, where's my safety net and my spreadsheet and my list? I made the decision to leave, and it's all worked out for the best. Um, but I think, yes, starting the business. I I started the business a year before I left my full time job, and I just knew it after hours in my lunch break. Um, and so I feel the business has been around for five years, but it's been four years full time, and yeah, it was about a year before I actually went. You know what? I've got enough saved to go back. I have a plan. Um, I've got a a two great clients that I know. I got a lot in the park one, and I'm ready to make the late And I think at that point, you know, we had a mortgage and my expenses that add a lot more accountability to, you know? So when you're in your early twenties, you just got to make sure you make rent to you, kid. Um I So I think, Yeah, maybe, but it felt right, and I felt I I never really felt, like, no matter where I was or if if I got to a point where I went No, like my time's coming to an end here. I never really felt like I fit in. And it wasn't until I started the business and I started meeting people like you and Grace and a lot of my other small business owner friends. I went Oh, well, I could just click like meant to be. And this is the table. You know, this is the lunch table I'm meant to be sitting at with these people. And I mean, I It was, No matter how scared I was, I knew it was the right decision. Um, and even a like worst day where it's been stressful, or I, you know, there's been a complaint or, you know, the worst day. If business I still never when mine never goes to Well, I'll just get a job and always like, No, I can persist with this, or how can I change this? And how can I, um, do this better tomorrow? I never go to Oh, well, I'll just throw it in, get it? Oh, my God. You're better than me. My, uh my standard is I'm on sea. I'm not gonna give me the It's unreal. Unreal. Um, So before we start talking about, I guess the in inverted commas failures or those less than glamorous parts um, I did just want to ask you about a little brave thing that you have done outside of business. Uh, I see that you've done a body building competition. I did. Can you believe it? I am really, really intrigued because I know how much just incredible discipline and work goes into Crafting a physique. So I was working in. I was working as a personal trainer. Um, I was in the fitness industry and a lot of people around me had done it. And I always was never really my thing. I was more of a yoga stretching kind of gal. I never run about a person. And, um, just one day, I I just I think it's these points in my life where I just go. I'm up for the next challenge and I sort of describe it. I describe it to a friend of when it was about having a baby and becoming a bum. And I said, I feel like I've been standing in a perfectly acceptable warm shower for a really long time. and the warm shower will get you clean and you'll feel OK, but sometimes you just crave like a piping hot shit like scolding shower that you get out and be like, Oh, that was a good shower. And I said, I I just feel like I need another goal. I mean, I'm ready for the next big thing. I've got itchy feet, and that was a point as well where I went. Well, I've been cruising for a little bit. You know, I want to. I want to experience what my clients experience When When I say right, we we're losing two kg. That's our goal. And then you tell me you're struggling with it. I've never had to lose weight. I never been a, uh you know, I might have wanted to, but I've never been told I've had to or I have to for my health Or, uh, you know, a disease or or anything. So I thought, You know what? I want to experience this and and see how challenging it challenging it is. And also just do something that I've never done before. Um, but I'm vegetarian, and I thought, I'm going to do this Part of me wanted to prove people wrong. I think that's, um I The person I'm most competitive with is myself. I can remember. And also, if I can do better than I did yesterday, then that really lights my fire. Hasn't we seen those Tik tok about my toxic trait? Oh, no. Yeah, that one's made for you. Hobby. My toxic trade is I can't stop competing with myself. and I think that, um when someone tells me I can't do something, I don't do it. I don't do the opposite to prove them wrong. I do the opposite to prove to myself that I should never have listened to them in the first place. So, uh, I thought I'm gonna when everyone around me was having, you know, grilled chicken and broccoli and steak and everything. uh, you know, I thought I'm gonna do things differently. And I'm gonna do this vegetarian this, um or I mean, by the end, I was pretty much vegan, and I'm gonna do it as naturally as possible. I'm not gonna have, um, just a as least amount of supplements as I can or what? I can do it as much as I can for my food. And I wanna show that you can get a result from, say, a plant based diet or a, um rather than going that traditional, you know, eating ta eggs a day, grilled chicken and broccoli and everything I've got I'm gonna do, um if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it on my terms and I'll give it a go. And, um, I'm really glad I did it. I I won't do it again, but, um, It's a memory that I have now. It took discipline six months of my life that, um I'd be sitting at the pub with a black coffee and everyone around. You know, I sacrificed a lot, but, you know, I proved to myself that I could do it. Yeah, and I've got some pictures to prove it. And I ticked it off my list. So, um yeah, it was It was really scary because I realised I had to get up on stage and ran around in a tiny little bikini with eight inch heels or whatever they were. And that was me. More than anything, I was like, Oh, I people wouldn't have seen my well, well done, you. I mean, like I say, I I actually, um Used to have a team member who had done done that as well. And like just the the amount of discipline and everything, like, I I really commend you. I think it's absolutely amazing. um so in terms of, I guess, switching back to business and and OS and Stone and everything that has been going on since you originally launched. I'm interested to know about those things that haven't gone to plan. So so many people that I talk to, you know, really see that link between bravery or courage and fear. And most of the time, our fear is fear of failure, I'd just love to know, um, What have you done in your business That hasn't gone the way that you wanted it to. And how did you overcome it? I think, um I'm very uh I'm not very comfortable in that. I a space that shows my weaknesses So that saying that you know, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, Uh, that it is not nothing. I will ruminate on something for a few more days to make sure that I guess, um, we're not showing weaknesses or, you know, by the time it gets to, I guess, a public forum, that it's polished and to my own detriment. Sometimes, you know, And I I could just, uh, you know, let it go out at 90% or 85% and it would still be, you know, I'm the only one that will notice that 15%. So I This is a really challenging area for me, and I think that, um, It there's no, I mean, it's not to say that I'm failure free, but I just find that I I do ruminate on things to a point where, I almost fail before it, you know, I've I've already failed a couple of times before the end product comes out. Um, I think, There are times where I've ignored my intuition, I think, um, which I wouldn't, but I wouldn't call it a failure, but it was definitely a lesson learned. And I think that's probably, um uh, for myself a better way of saying it because I I don't think that, um, you know, failure is a bad thing, you know, if you send five rockets up in the sky and four of them crash, But number five is good. I mean, yes, you have technically failed, but the lessons you've learned from those four rockets have helped to number five. So I I guess if I can spin that to lessons learned, um, there was probably in year two of the business. I was doing some work for a client who didn't end up paying me, and it was about eight or nine grand. So it wasn't anything to sort of blink at And there were probably a lot of red flags that at the time, I didn't. Didn't feel quite right, but it was view business. So, um, I thought, Oh, no, I feel right. No, she hasn't paid me, but I'll just keep working for it, you know, just little things like that. And and sort of, um, a bit of gas lighting in the background. And And And I realise now that we got to the point where I had to, uh it took about six months, but I had to go to court with it and recover the the debt, and it was a really stressful. It was most hands down, the most stressful thing that's ever happened to me in my business. So and I think that it was not only me, I'm being new in business, but also ignoring things that, like my intuition, was quite strongly like, Hello. That's not That's not right. And I just make excuses for it. And I think that what I learned from that was, The person that I I guess I was dealing with was challenging. the values that I had built my business on and at the very crux of that honesty and integrity. And I would challenge you, those values, and it hurt because I thought, you know, I I worked so hard to to be honest with my words and in, um, have integrity in my actions, and you haven't been that way with me, and it was also stepping up for, um, the work that I'd done and not being pushed around as a small business. And, um, you know, it was happening to a lot of people around me and I I think the lessons learned from that was it's worth standing up. Yeah, really worth standing up for it was by the end of it, it wasn't about the money. It was the fact that, you know, she made a promise to me, and she lied to me and and I'm standing up for what I was owed. But it was also a lesson in listening to my intuition and my gut and those red flag which have since come up with other in other scenarios. Um, but I'll never be in that situation again where I'm so deep in it and so emotionally and financially invested that I haven't caught it early. Uh, so again, I wouldn't. I guess I wouldn't call it a failure because I think failure is a good thing. but definitely less than flu. Um, and I've and a couple of times that yes, it has come up. Um, So I guess those red flags, you know, we'll get an inquiry and it's a classic, like we don't have a lot of money, and we needed it yesterday. And you're like, uh, you, uh you're not the client for us. And I think, um, we've since then I've worked really hard with my team to attract the people who are on our side are on our team, a really good fit for the studio. And it's a collaborative effort rather than I will pay you the money and you will give me the designs like it's that kind of So the lessons learned and that was that relationships are really important to me. Um, if you say you're gonna do something and you shake my hand, that's that's the the biggest thing that you can, you know your integrity on that's really important. So, um, I guess so. I mean, there've been lots of little failures along the way. I mean, uh, you know this, the way that I speak or even phrases that I use or, um I don't ways that we communicate with clients and everyone's got their own communication style. Those micro cellies, we're like, OK, well, you're better on the phone than email. Yeah, that word doesn't quite make sense to use or using other words and those little things, but in saying that, I'm very I've already failed. Yeah, three times before you even hear about it, because I I I don't feel comfortable letting people see my weaknesses. I guess it's a, um but I hope that answers your question, but it does. And look, I mean, this question is a little bit cheated. So, uh, I'm a neuro linguistic programming master practitioner and one of the pre suppositions of n LP is actually that there's no such thing as failure. There's only feedback. And I love throwing that one around. It's probably the only one of the pre suppositions I actually remember, um, and I've repeated it so many times in my household that now my husband parrots it back to me as well. But I do think that it is so powerful when we are able to you know, really. Look at the lessons and and what we've learned and just sort of what you've shared, I guess the the kind of standout points in the story to me, I really A around your values. So business values and career values are something that I could literally bang on about all day because I just think it's so important to really understand what it is that you stand for so that when you come to these moments, you can make really aligned decisions that are made with judgement and your own best interests at heart. Um, So I think you know more power to you for, you know, being in a position where you understood what your values were and that this particular client was rubbing your values the wrong way. Uh, I think good on you for chasing her down and, you know, taking her to because I see so many people who end up just deciding to let it go. And I mean, look, we all have our own reasons for doing things, and I understand that sometimes people don't have the energy or the money or the, you know, willpower or the discipline that's required to kind of go through and and fight something to the end. But you know it It does always kind of grind my gears a bit. I guess when I think about these people out there who are effectively being told through our own inaction that their behaviour is appropriate or acceptable and that, you know, it takes somebody strong like yourself to actually stand up and say, actually, hell No. um, you are not failing to get away with this. Um, the the red flags that you've talked about. We've, uh we've We've talked on on the podcast a little bit about this. I know that we talked about red flags in Angie Ray's episode. Uh, and I do think that it's it's something that as a business owner, I'm trying to really get better at around. You know, like listening, hearing when When the intuition is actually screaming and and then responding and find, uh, so I think you know, everything that you've shared, You know, I I can really relate to it. And I'm sure that the people listening will be able to find some lessons in that as well. So thank you so much for sharing that experience. I guess there's one thing that I would love to challenge you on if you don't mind. Um, and that is the last thing that you said around the fact that, you know, because you aren't comfortable sharing your weaknesses or having other people see what's really going on behind the curtain. You've often failed a few times before we get to see it. You know, I'll see it here in the general public I wonder how things could be different for you and your business. if you did allow yourself to fail in a different way. Um I appreciate that. I appreciate the challenge because it's a waste of something that I admire in other people. Where I go, Oh, I I could never, um like even, you know, on social media and and and things like, Oh, I could never be that, Um, vulnerable. Or I could never show that side of me that lying about who I am or I'm not. I just do it in a very different way. I I You know, I I guess I'm more private about my vulnerabilities. And and, uh and I I don't like seeing people. People see me when I haven't got it together. Yeah, in the same way that I don't want my clients to to see that I I'm not organised or I'm not. They're paying me money to sort things for them and to think through problems, and and I don't want them to think that they've made a mistake by, um, engaging my help to do that. But I do. Um, I do know that I, um I'm better at it now, but I used to sort of get caught up in the details and hope it It can't go out until it's panic and it can't do this, and it can't do that. So I've I have gotten better at that. But I know there's a long way for me to go, and it's also finding like, Oh, style of what that is. Yeah, and I talk about it a lot with Grace Costa, and she goes, Oh, I'm just just you've got so much to share Just let people see that side of you And I said, Well, it's, um, I've got to find what that definition is for me and how I can, uh, again not let the perfect get in the way of good, but to a point that I'm comfortable. And I think I'm chipping away, but I do a bit I feel like and I think motherhood's gonna bring that to me as well, because, um, this little one is not gonna be adhering to my briefs. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, definitely. I think, um, it this kind of reminds me of a conversation, and And look, I may have shared it here on the podcast before, but around the concept of, like, person branding and the way that we show up online. And you know, a lot of the time when I'm working with a client, you know, especially if they are new to business or, you know, maybe at a like a pivotal point in their business, where their personal brand may or may not be shifting I often hit this barrier around, you know, um I'm a I'm very private. I don't want to kind of share that on the Internet, and I find it quite interesting, because I I mean, I I share a lot, um, being, uh, uh, you know, I I do believe that it's part of my neo convergence that I'm an over sharer. But what I feel is that I'm able to share to a point and A lot of people will consume my content, whether that be podcast episodes or blog posts or social media posts. But there is that sense of connection or feeling that perhaps they know me when what they actually know about me is quite superficial. but I think that sometimes the way in which I am strategic about sharing points that I know that people will connect with. And for me, it's very much you know, some of that basic stuff like I've got on my about page that in Myers Briggs I'm an i n f j. And I regularly get people contacting me, saying, Oh, I'm an I n f j, too. Or, you know, I've seen that you like dogs or, you know, it's it's never anything. That's really super deep or profound or even necessarily vulnerable. That actually makes that connection. Yeah, it's just, I guess, a willingness to maybe express myself imperfectly. I don't know. And I guess the, you know, as you would know, you know, in in your career, personal branding is such a a completely individual thing and Um, it may be that that is actually not. part of your wheelhouse or what you do, or the way that you present yourself at all. I guess my purpose behind asking the question is, just to, I guess, get you and perhaps some of the audience members who resonate with your statement to think about, What? What would be different? I like the way you put that actually expressing yourself imperfectly because I think it's about the well, there's one part. That's the the level of content that you're prepared to share with people about your life. And, you know, um, whether that's that you let people in wholeheartedly and and every aspect of your life, which is a bit too much for me personally. And me too, to be honest. Yeah, I guess even from a security point of view, there are things that I I just want to keep private in my life so, you know, But then there's that other part of, like, OK, we'll find out what you're comfortable sharing and then share that imperfectly. I like how you put that because it's really funny. And I have again, I have this conversation with Grace because she's always starring me on to, you know, uh, express more of myself imperfectly. And there are times when I do do it. People love it. Yeah, messages. And we get you know Oh, I feel the same way, too. And Oh, that's really funny. And and even, um, a couple of years it was 2020 and the local AC T election was on, and I got a flyer in the bail, and I did a little bit of a A design. Um a critique of it. Yeah, and I thought, Oh, you know, this is the email logos dropped off, but I like the the photos, and it's on brand sort of laden party. I'll give it a seven out of 10. and it just went nuts. People were like, Oh, I got a flyer in the mail, too. Can you do this one. And what do you mean? Oh, wow. It snowballed. And I ended up, uh, learning more about local politics than I ever would. And I ended up interviewing, um, for, uh, c news, which is now two news with my friend Bree. Um, I interviewed Tara Chane and, um, Greg Lloyd and and about their friendship. But, you know, I wrote the article about things and we had a a running leader board who had the best pamphlet and no go so much. And it resonated so much with people. I was like, really? Like, we're talking about election pamphlets, but we it started getting really competitive because, you know, people were like, Oh, I better than so and so And and I get pictures from people on instagram that, like, I got this in my mailbox, can you grow that type of thing? And it was just We'd never received so much engagement on our social media, and I felt like I could I could be myself and I could share my knowledge about printing. And you know, D l versus a four versus. Yeah, all the freeways opposed two. And it was so nerdy and I loved it. And and people just loved it to the point where they said, I went and voted today and I never look at the pull up bans when I walk in. But I thought of you and and, um and it'll be So I know there is a point, you know, it resonates with our audience, and I guess the humour that, um, humorous side of the business that we're known for and and, you know, the the, uh I guess audacious kind of copy that we use and the the sense of humour we have. And I think you're right that there is a balance of working out, like, how much am I allowing these people into my life? So if I decide that how imperfect am I prepared to to be to show the real me. And I think that I do show the real V, But I'm also, um I think I have this. My biggest fear is just people laughing at me and thinking, and especially my industry peers. That is, if another designer thinks that I'm a bit silly then I just it's It's so silly to to think that because, you know, we get nothing but support through our calls, but I'm like, Oh, but what if people laugh at me? What if And I think that's, um, why I probably am a little bit guarded in the way that, um, you know, it's I want it to be perfect. I'm a perfectionist as well. I want it to be the best that it is before it goes out the door. Yeah, I I like I really like how you put that to express ourselves imperfectly. And this podcast episode, your first podcast episode might just be the start. Exactly. Maybe, but I I appreciate the the challenge. As I said before, I. Then I'll challenge myself, my topic I love it. So aside from having a baby next week, what else have you got coming up? um, So I think in the new year, we're gonna be looking for a new team member. I think also, I've spoken to the girls that and I said, I I don't know exactly what what it is yet, but I feel like we're we're destined to grow, which is a really funny thing, because when I went into this, just the thought of having a team and managing, you know, I didn't see the destiny of the business being in a bricks and mortar studio with 10 designers and a, uh, office manager. I just didn't see that in our future. And we're we're seeing a gap in, I guess that when we do get busy, we we see a gap in our capacity that could be filled by someone. And I think that when I get back, um, in the new year, we will start thinking more about that. Um, because now, kind of as we were talking before, I got feel more comfortable now letting people into that inner circle and doing things on my behalf, knowing that they have the same like they've taken all the values of the business. And, and the reputation that we have in taking care of our clients. And that's the most important thing for me. Um, you know it is The next few months ahead will be a big challenge. because we're in a space that we've never navigated before Where, um, you know, we're not principle dependent at this stage, and and I'm also trying to step. Um, not step back, step further away from running the show or feeling the need to have my finger in every single pie, and they're very, very capable. But I think in the new year, we there are a couple of gaps that I've seen and and the team could grow um I think as well, uh, in the last couple of months in leading up to when that leave, I've enjoyed being, you know, more of an art director position where I'm not on the tools as much. And I think that's where that that other team member is gonna come in and maybe be on the tools a little bit more so I can step back and, um, you know, change his colour, move that type. do it, you know? Yes, that concept's good. Send it off. Send it to the printer. And it'd be more in an art director role of the business, which I, uh, I think has been on the bucket list for a really long time. But yeah, it's actually looking more realistic with the nature of, uh, I guess just having a break and stepping back a little bit. Uh, but yeah, that's sort of in the new year, but I think just navigating what? um, work looks like in its new form, work is what's very been very important to me. I I don't define myself by the work I do. But it's very enjoyable for me and I I enjoy working, and I found a career that helps me be creative. Uh, which I like add to my absolute DNA, Uh, and allows me to get paid for it. So I'll tell you. Gee, I can relate to that. Down to my call. Yeah, because I, um and I had this chat with Carlie the other day and she was like, I I enjoy working. I get a lot of, um, running my own business, and and I I I, uh you know, in the last 6 12 months, especially for me, I've learned how to set better of boundaries about the hours that I work or the, uh, You know, the the urgency that I take things on and the capacity that we have in the studio to help people, Um, and also the type of work that we want to do If it's a good fit for us and for the client, you know, it's a two. Um, it's mutually beneficial. So these boundaries have been really important to me. Um, but I also want to explore what work looks like for me when I do have to literally key. all human being and how much care about how his work is going to change. So I think, um, for both of us owning our own businesses, we have the privilege of designing a lock that, uh, works for us and our baby and brings us satisfaction and joy from the work that we do, because that's really important to us. It's we get a lot of the, a lot of joy out of the work that we do. Um, I love it. And, you know, I would really love you to come back on the podcast next year. Once you're back in at work and let's unpack some of that stuff around, you know what it was like taking a break and leaving your team in charge and how you kind of adjust to being back in the workplace, too. I think that'd be a really interesting conversation. And, um, you know, it's been such a pleasure talking to you today. Uh, I would love to talk to you again. Thank you. Well, I think that's a really important conversation to have, too, about, uh And I'm sure that everything you've spoken about today is failure at graves and doing things that you've never done before And everything. Like, I'm gonna be slung into the into the thick of it. And I do believe so, And I think that, um the most research that I've done is asking other small business owners who are moms. And, uh, what did you do? How much time did you take off? How did you balance your life? What's what did you get from your partner and demystifying the fact that um, you know, you have to choose between being a mom and owning a business and going back to work. And and I think, um, I've sort of taken bits and pieces from everyone I've spoken to, but I think it's a really important conversation to have about you know, what is realistic. Uh, but but being in a creative field, it's to me. It's a a brief that I've been given. Yeah. What's the solution to that? And solutions based work is the crux of what we do in the studio. You know, it doesn't matter what time you're working. It doesn't matter. Um, you know, as long as you you find a solution and you get it done by the the deadline. I guess it doesn't matter whether you're working at 11 o'clock at night or six o'clock in the morning or you're working from Bali or none of the So I'm sort of seeing it almost as a a project to say. Well, You know, you need to get this job done, but you can't do it at this time. Um, what's the solution? Um, and creating those opportunities that we were talking about, you know, being more opportunity focused, and yeah, focused. And so, yeah, I'd really Maybe I'll come back and be like, Oh, it was completely wrong. Well, we'll be very interested in your reporting back before we finish up today, though I would love for you to tell the audience where they can find you if they want to go and check out your beautiful brand and connect with you, maybe continue the conversation. Oh, thank you. Um, I think Instagram is a really good place to get a quick idea of the work that we do. It's really portfolio based. And there Sometimes we jump on and do some stories. We talk about the literal pamphlet. Um, our website. Uh so we're on instagram. We are both and stone designs and just our Our website is both and stone dot com dot a u and that goes into a little bit more detail about I guess what we stand for and why we're here doing this work and what we love and a bit more about the team. Um, but Instagram, in terms of a visual platform, works really well for us because people can get a really quicker idea about the types of people that we work with and for who we serve and the style of work that we're doing with that resonates we've been to. It's so great. Trish, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. And thank you for giving up so much of your time. This is by far my longest podcast episode here on bra in business. And that has just been such a magical discuss. that I know that everyone who listens to it is gonna just take so much goodness away. So I really appreciate you doing this even though you have officially commenced your maternity leave. Oh, I'm so busy today. I made a juice litter box Amazing. I am very time rich at the moment. I love it. Well, it was such a pleasure. Thank you so much. And I look forward to talking to you again. Thank you. Thanks for having me, thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Brave in business podcast. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button. Leave me a rating. Although five stars, preferably please, and a review. You can also join me over on socials at Pop your beers. If you've got a topic you'd love me to address here on the pod, be sure to send me AD m. And I'll see you in the next episode