0:00

It's worth knowing what's really

0:02

going on. This

0:05

is the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

0:11

Previously on Breakdown. Can

0:15

you imagine the notion of

0:17

the Republican nominee for president

0:20

not being able to

0:22

campaign for the presidency because he

0:24

is in some form or

0:26

fashion in a courtroom defending himself? There's

0:29

a woman sitting somewhere who knows that I'm

0:32

going to f*** her whole life up when

0:34

this is done. Covering

0:36

a beat can be an interesting thing. Journalists

0:39

like us spend days and weeks at a time

0:41

thinking about and writing about a subject or a

0:44

person. But sometimes we

0:46

can go long, long stretches without getting

0:48

to speak to that newsmaker directly, especially

0:51

if that person is in the middle

0:53

of a sensitive court case or investigation.

0:56

That's certainly been the case with Fulton County

0:59

DA Fonny Willis. She's at

1:01

the heart of this election interference case, at

1:03

the tip of the tongue of defendants and

1:05

pundits and critics. Heck, she's even at the

1:07

center of this podcast. But her

1:09

team has cut back on interviews over the last year and a

1:12

half, especially after the special grand

1:14

jury ramped up its work. So

1:16

we were intrigued when Willis agreed to sit down for

1:18

an end of year interview. The

1:20

last time Breakdown had an extended sit down

1:22

with Madam DA was back in the spring

1:25

of 2022. That

1:27

was before the special grand jury was seated.

1:30

And that's also when she told us this.

1:32

We're going to literally, because I'm

1:34

old school, I'm going to make them on a white

1:36

piece of paper that has a sticky thing at the top.

1:39

I'm going to write the elements to this crime

1:42

are A, B and C. Do

1:44

we have those elements? If so,

1:47

what witness gives me fact

1:49

A, fact B and fact C? What

1:52

document proves fact A, fact B and

1:55

fact C? If we

1:57

can do that, I'm going to bring

1:59

an indictment. When

2:01

we first sat down in Willis's third-floor

2:03

office in the Fulton County Courthouse on

2:05

Tuesday, the DA was not the most

2:08

talkative. She took pains to show that

2:10

the Trump case was like any other

2:12

case her office handled. She

2:14

was vague about some of the things we asked

2:16

her, including some of the newsier items on her

2:18

plate. But Willis opened

2:21

up as the interview progressed, shedding light

2:23

on her future, including whether she'd be

2:25

a major presence in the courtroom as

2:27

the case goes to trial. She

2:29

was also more candid than we expected when

2:32

we asked her about her political future as

2:35

well as some of her fiercest

2:37

Republican critics. This

2:39

is episode 21, a conversation with

2:41

DA Willis of season 10 of

2:43

Breakdown, the Trump indictment from

2:46

the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. hip-hop is

2:49

a product of black people. It's a

2:51

product of black song and

2:53

celebration. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution presents

2:55

hip-hop's most pulled elements of

2:58

pulled from the South, a Southern hip-hop

3:00

story. We always go back to that moment of

3:03

the source award. Everybody wants

3:05

a rhythm, but they don't want some blues. The

3:07

biggest names in hip-hop. Atlanta is still the meta

3:09

for hip-hop. 50 years. No

3:11

one can deny one bill. The power of

3:13

the South now. The South got something

3:15

to say. Streaming now

3:18

at ajc.com/hip-hop. Right

3:20

now, get three months of unlimited digital access

3:22

to the AJC for just 99 cents. That's

3:25

three months of politics, sports, investigations, and

3:27

more for less than a buck. It's

3:30

our best offer of the year and

3:32

it's only for a limited time. Go

3:34

to ajc.com/start so you always know what's

3:36

really going on. Welcome

3:41

back to Breakdown, the podcast by

3:43

the Atlanta Journal-Constitution covering Georgia's most

3:45

important cases. I'm Bill Rankin, the

3:48

AJC's legal affairs reporter. I'm

3:50

Senior Reporter Tamar Hallerman. And

3:53

I'm Shannon McCaffrey, a Senior Editor at

3:55

the AJC. As promised,

3:57

here's our interview with D.A. Fonny Willis.

4:00

We've edited this conversation for length and

4:02

clarity, but we've also given her room

4:04

to say her piece So

4:07

I can't remember how long ago

4:09

it was we sat down with you right over

4:11

there and you said You're

4:14

gonna put some sticky notes up and if you can

4:16

prove this I can prove that and I

4:18

can prove that I'm gonna bring an indictment. I

4:20

guess the sticky notes worked out. Okay case

4:23

is about four months old I guess

4:25

I just want we want to know how it's gone so far. I Think

4:29

we're if you're I'm assuming you're

4:31

talking about the election interference case That's the case

4:33

you asked me about before I think it's going

4:35

like normal cases in the system How

4:38

do you feel about the strength of your case at this point?

4:42

I bring indictments when I am confidence in the

4:44

evidence we bring and so I'm at the same

4:46

place I was on the day we

4:48

indicted Okay, nothing

4:50

You know probably more so than maybe

4:52

national viewers that when I took

4:55

office I changed the philosophy of the way we charge

4:57

cases in this office and so

4:59

it's very important to me that any case whether

5:01

it's a step by shoplifting or Possession

5:03

of drugs or murder or some

5:05

white-collar crime? That

5:08

we get all of the evidence together And

5:11

once we are satisfied with we have

5:13

enough evidence we bring charges And

5:15

so that is followed on every

5:18

single case in this office I

5:20

thought it was an unethical practice to charge

5:22

people by police just Faxing

5:25

over a paragraph and then based

5:27

on that you bring charges But a lot of

5:29

people in a bad position where they have the

5:31

scarlet letter of an indictment You

5:34

really didn't have good evidence because you didn't do the

5:36

research. I thought it was bad for the people that

5:38

were charged as well as Victims

5:41

because you don't do a good job of making

5:43

sure that you have a strong case So there's

5:45

nothing unique about any case in this office. The

5:47

process is the same every time Not

5:50

every case started out with 19 defendants, so

5:54

That's some big number to everybody else in the universe.

5:56

It's not that big to me APS was 35. I got

5:59

a couple 28. I don't

6:01

even know why it's exciting to people. Here

6:04

Willis is talking about the Atlanta Public

6:06

Schools test-cheating case that I covered almost

6:08

a decade ago. Willis

6:10

headed the prosecution which resulted in the

6:13

convictions of more than 30

6:15

educators. We're coming up

6:17

on the end of the year and I'm hoping to reflect

6:19

a little bit on this case over the course of the

6:22

year. Has it kind of unfolded in the way that you

6:24

thought it would? I didn't

6:26

put predictions on that case just like

6:28

any other. It's very important to me

6:30

that you just start with an open

6:32

mind. It's kind of

6:35

like in most cases you get a complaint and then

6:37

you investigate. So I didn't have predictions

6:40

of how long. People were very

6:42

frustrated with time but people need

6:45

to learn to be patient. Justice

6:48

takes time and so the process is

6:50

always the same. But looking

6:52

back on an indictment day and it ended

6:54

up going much faster I think than you

6:56

know people were expecting you know a two-day

6:59

presentations to the grand jury. It ended up

7:01

going pretty quickly. Can you reflect on what

7:03

that day was like for you here? Another

7:05

long day. It was a very long

7:07

day in the office. I

7:10

guess personally I just remember being very tired and

7:13

other than that the process was

7:15

the same. I

7:17

will say that you're correct in that

7:19

we had planned to present witnesses over two

7:21

days and we were able to do it

7:23

in one very long day as

7:26

opposed to two days but other than that I

7:28

think that was really just more of an

7:30

election to keep going as opposed to

7:33

let's stop and come back in the morning.

7:35

One of the most surreal moments I think

7:37

for both of us was when President Trump

7:39

came to surrender at the Fulton County Jail

7:42

and there were so many people out there

7:44

with such a circus and the motorcade going

7:46

through the the downtown connector. What was it

7:48

like seeing that that mugshot for

7:50

you that first time? I mean

7:53

obviously I wasn't in Rice Street when any

7:55

defendant checked themselves in. America

8:00

nor reporters, you all really do not

8:02

believe fundamentally because if you did, it

8:04

wouldn't be so interesting that everyone is

8:06

the same. So the process is always

8:08

the same. And so why

8:11

is that news that it's, and you know, clearly

8:13

it is, it's not a criticism in view, because

8:15

people comment on it, but it shouldn't be news

8:17

that any defendant has to go through the

8:20

process. So it

8:22

wasn't anything special to me. I've seen a lot of

8:24

bookend photos in my day. It's another

8:26

bookend photo from somebody charged with a crime. So

8:30

as you can see, Willis was pretty brief in

8:32

her answers and repeated again and again that the

8:34

Trump case is just like any other case her

8:36

office handles. And what

8:38

has this done for your life personally? I

8:41

know that you've testified a lot about the

8:43

personal threats you've received, but can you reflect

8:45

a little bit on that and how it's

8:47

changed your life and maybe your own personal

8:49

sense of security walking through the world?

8:52

We have a lot of people that are

8:54

mentally ill in the world. It's

8:57

clear to me that people

8:59

are offended when everyone is treated equally.

9:02

And so as a result, I have

9:04

a lot of ignorant, probably

9:07

mentally ill people that

9:09

lodge threats at me and my family.

9:13

That's obviously no one wants to have

9:15

themselves threatened or their families threatened. So

9:17

I take proper precautions, none of which

9:19

I'll discuss, because I wouldn't want my

9:21

safety or my family's safety to be

9:23

jeopardized by discussing them. It is

9:26

a shame though that we

9:28

are at a time in American

9:30

history where someone doesn't like a

9:33

decision, that they think that it's

9:35

appropriate to call them racist

9:37

names, which I've definitely been called.

9:39

You know, everything from a slave

9:41

whore to the N-word more times

9:43

than I can count. There's usually

9:46

ugly racial identifications

9:49

like you're going to be hung or

9:52

you'll be raped and hung, just

9:54

things to bring

9:56

terror. But I've said it before and

9:59

I'll say it again. they're wasting their time. And

10:02

then we would

10:37

want to hold our

10:40

case. I can just talk about process. And I think you probably heard it

10:42

before. And you I know are someone who was an actual experienced journalist and

10:44

experienced with the courtroom and the

10:46

way criminal cases proceed.

10:48

Again, not a unique fact. In APS

10:50

we started with 35 defendants. Two of

10:52

those unfortunately passed,

10:55

meaning they died, which left

10:58

33 defendants remaining. 21 took

11:01

pleas. We used each of those pleas

11:04

to tell further

11:06

the accounts of what happened in

11:08

that incident. Plea agreements in the criminal

11:11

practice, you often give them because someone wants

11:14

to take responsibility for what they did.

11:16

That's why you'll give someone a lesser sentence because

11:18

it's an important part is to just

11:20

have attrition and say, you know, I apologize. I

11:23

shouldn't have been involved in this conduct. And

11:25

it often helps you in making sure that you

11:28

can you're able to prove your case,

11:31

although you should do that at the time of

11:33

indictment, whether you have a plea or not. Do

11:35

you think it'll take having a trial date on the calendar before you're going

11:37

to get some of these people to agree to these deals? So Fulton County

11:41

I've learned, you know, I've practiced almost my

11:43

entire career here is unique from

11:45

other circuits in that that's not the way our process

11:49

kind of works. So you you bring

11:51

an indictment. Typically

11:53

there's a plea and arraignment where people just say that

11:55

they're not guilty for the charges. That's a court date.

11:57

They call it a plea and arraignment court date. Motions

12:01

are filed in big cases. Lots

12:03

and lots and lots of motions are filed by

12:05

many different defendants. And

12:07

so you have motion hearings. The reason

12:09

I mention that is often,

12:11

and before you can have motions, you have

12:13

to file the discovery, which is all the

12:15

information you have on the case. So people

12:17

know what motions they want to file, what

12:20

evidence they want to challenge. What has been

12:22

my practice, what I have seen in my

12:24

practice for these 28 years that I've been

12:26

practicing law and criminal law, is that typically

12:28

it is after motions

12:30

when you'll get the most amount of

12:32

pleas. And so what happens after

12:35

motions in Fulton County, Georgia, and that's all I can

12:37

speak to, is we have what

12:39

we call a final plea date. Most

12:41

judges in Fulton County will use final

12:44

plea date for your last opportunity for

12:46

a negotiated plea. There's a

12:48

great significance to a negotiated plea, and

12:50

that is because if we agree to what

12:52

the sentence is going to be, and you

12:54

as the defendant, the judge can always say,

12:57

I'm not gonna accept that negotiated plea. I

12:59

think that's ridiculous. I don't think that's justice.

13:01

And so a judge can reject it. If

13:04

a judge rejects it, anytime

13:06

up to and including

13:08

final plea, the defendant can say, well, since you

13:11

didn't accept the plea that I negotiated, then I'm

13:13

gonna go ahead to trial. One

13:15

is able to take a plea after final plea,

13:18

but they have to take what's called a

13:20

mom negotiated plea, which means the judge sentences.

13:23

And the second important part about that is you

13:25

do not have the right to withdraw your plea,

13:27

so you're stuck with it. So whatever the judge

13:29

gave you, that's what you're gonna do. If that's

13:31

20 years in jail, then

13:33

you're going to do 20 years in jail

13:35

because you're past the date of

13:37

final plea. And so I

13:40

never really expect pleas in a

13:42

lot of an amount. We certainly

13:44

had them in APS too, but

13:46

you're always just in practicing law,

13:48

gonna see more pleas after

13:50

motions. And it makes sense, because now

13:52

I know what's coming in against me and

13:54

what's not coming in against me. Now lawyers

13:56

are in a position where they can really

13:58

tell their client, okay? you might want to

14:00

take a plea. The easiest example for lay

14:02

people to understand is in a drug case.

14:05

So sometimes you'll have a motion to suppress

14:07

the drugs that were found. And

14:09

lawyers will wait for their clients to take a

14:11

plea until they know if the judge is going

14:14

to say their search was legal or their search

14:16

was illegal. If it's illegal, all the drugs are

14:18

out. Prosecution is in a position where we are going

14:20

to probably dismiss the case because we can't

14:22

use the evidence against you. Or the

14:24

judge is going to say, yeah, them three kilos, they're

14:26

going to come in and the search was good. And

14:28

then they're going to say, hey, what's the best deal

14:31

that we can get? So we are kind of in

14:33

the normal place of the process. And so I'm not

14:35

at all surprised about where we are or how many

14:37

pleas have been taken in that case. I think

14:39

we're following the normal course. We

14:42

saw you for the first time in court in

14:44

the revocation hearing for

14:46

Harrison Floyd. And I guess I'm just

14:48

wondering if we're going to see you in court more

14:50

often in this case. So just to

14:53

correct the record, when we were in a

14:55

pre-indictment stage in this case, I did

14:57

appear in court. But you're speaking post-indictment.

15:01

I told somebody recently, and I think it's

15:03

true, and you'll probably appreciate this more than

15:05

other reporters. I don't think anyone should ever

15:07

be surprised if DA Willis enters a courtroom.

15:09

That's not something that could surprise you. And

15:12

so that's not a straight answer, I guess.

15:14

But I don't think anyone should be surprised

15:16

if I walk into the court to defend

15:18

any case that I have here. Your

15:20

name's on the indictment. My name's on

15:23

every indictment. And so ultimately, my assistant

15:25

district attorneys are carrying out my duties

15:27

and responsibilities. Do you think it's possible

15:29

you might make an appearance at trial

15:32

whenever the trial comes? I think it's

15:34

very possible. That hearing with

15:37

Harrison Floyd, it seemed involving

15:41

threats against witnesses, it seemed almost personal

15:43

for you. Do you feel a heightened

15:46

level of responsibility when it comes to

15:48

the safety of some of these witnesses in this case? Oh,

15:51

I feel a heightened sense of security when it

15:53

comes to my witnesses in all cases. I would

15:55

not say it's personal, but it is at the

15:58

front of my mind in terms of business. This

16:01

is not the only case by

16:03

any stretch of the imagination where

16:05

we very much worry about

16:08

threats. That kind of goes back to

16:10

our first part of our conversation. We are

16:12

living in a time in America where there

16:14

is a lack of respect for authority and

16:16

there's a lack of respect for the process.

16:19

That hit home the largest for me

16:22

earlier in maybe last year

16:24

now, someone threatened our sheriff and

16:27

that seems crazy to me because

16:29

your sheriff in any county is

16:32

your most important law enforcement

16:34

officer, right? You're your chief number one

16:36

law enforcement officer. But to

16:38

me, the reason I bring that up is

16:40

it just shows what a horrible place we

16:42

are at when people think it is okay

16:44

to threaten law enforcement officers who risk

16:47

their life to protect you. And

16:49

so, yes, I take it very, very

16:51

seriously when people get doxxed, which this

16:53

week in a trial, not the one

16:55

you're referring to right now, I've had

16:57

law enforcement officers doxxed. I

16:59

personally, as you know, have been doxxed,

17:01

which for your listeners and viewers who

17:03

don't know what that means, it means

17:05

where someone will share your personal information,

17:07

meaning your home address or your business

17:10

or your telephone number so that people

17:12

can intentionally harass you. And that's been

17:14

done in cases that this office is

17:16

bringing, in cases the attorney general is

17:18

currently bringing against different law

17:20

enforcement officers here, against city council

17:23

people in my city about another case.

17:25

So, yes, I think you can hear

17:28

the passion in my voice. When people

17:30

threaten people that are just coming forward,

17:32

being good citizens, doing their duties, it

17:35

is a very important thing to me and it's something

17:37

we are not going to tolerate. Speaking

17:39

of threats or perceived threats against witnesses in

17:42

this case, we had one of the defendants,

17:44

Trevion Cudi, go on Instagram live recently and

17:46

talk about Ruby Freeman, one of the witnesses

17:48

in this case. There were some legal folks

17:50

I spoke to who said that it was

17:53

grounds for you to seek a revocation of

17:55

Ms. Cudi's bond agreement. Do

17:57

you plan to do that in the future and why haven't we

17:59

seen action? on the DA's part yet? Because

18:02

the DA is patient. Your

18:04

office has requested an August

18:06

5th trial date for next year. We

18:09

have the special counsel in the

18:11

DC case going to

18:13

the Supreme Court right now asking for

18:15

expedited review. Is possible that case could

18:18

be delayed? It's possible. It's

18:20

possible the New York case could be

18:22

delayed for some reason and the classified

18:24

documents. If there is an opening before

18:27

August the 5th, do you think you would be ready

18:30

and willing to step

18:32

forward here? So we would be

18:34

ready and willing. I always say stay ready

18:36

you ain't got to get ready. So the

18:39

state would be ready and willing but we

18:41

have to go through that natural process that

18:43

we talked about of hearing all of the

18:46

defense motions, hearing all of the state's motions,

18:48

having final plea. But the date that we

18:50

asked for was respectful of our sister jurisdictions

18:52

and so we considered that those dates were

18:55

already set and so I wasn't going to

18:57

go in and ask for the same date

18:59

that was set in another jurisdiction. But you

19:01

know I am aware that there are

19:04

things going on elsewhere in the world that could

19:06

delay this but certainly as

19:08

you said there might be openings and it

19:10

would just depend on where we were in

19:12

the process. Meaning have we gone through all

19:14

of those other necessary steps? This

19:17

we have a new judge in this case and

19:19

I think he's been criticized for being a new

19:21

judge but what I watch him do

19:24

not in this case just in all cases

19:26

is he seems to be managing his calendar

19:28

very very efficiently. Having dates

19:30

holding people accountable, jumping in and

19:32

trying cases and so

19:34

I think that's lucky. Not every judge is

19:36

that efficient and so I think it's lucky

19:38

for all the parties involved that you have

19:40

a judge that moves their calendar along efficiently

19:42

and I'm sure if he sees

19:44

an opening and he's made sure that

19:47

everyone's rights are protected and we've done

19:49

all the motions that it's something he

19:51

may set down. But obviously court dates

19:53

that is always that something the judge

19:55

does. The DC case going up

19:57

to the US Supreme Court right now is about

20:00

Presidential immunity and mr. Saydow

20:02

mr. Trump's lawyers said he's gonna

20:04

follow that in January here.

20:06

What do you have to say about a Claim

20:09

of presidential immunity. I

20:11

think we've looked at those issues. I think we're in a

20:13

good place Mr. Saydow is

20:15

a good attorney. He'll do everything he needs to

20:17

do to protect the rights of his client And

20:20

I guess we'll see him in the Supreme Court How

20:22

do you look at those developments right now in

20:25

DC as the Supreme Court has suggested it will

20:27

look at the issue of presidential immunity Do you

20:29

have to feel like in Fulton County you have

20:31

to wait for that challenge to play out in

20:34

Washington before you can move forward? Um,

20:36

I think that a federal case in a state

20:38

case there are different rules and laws that apply

20:41

So we haven't been waiting on anyone to do

20:43

anything The only wait you

20:45

can say we've done is we've been respectful

20:47

of trial dates that are set and I

20:49

think that's just Responsible to be respectful

20:52

of trial dates that are set in

20:54

other jurisdictions Before

20:56

you think it's possible the Fulton trial

20:58

moves up if the US Supreme Court

21:00

agrees to hear Trump's immunity challenge Well,

21:03

maybe not like we said

21:05

Steve Saydow says he's going to file

21:07

an immunity challenge in January So

21:10

would judge McAfee scheduled the Fulton

21:12

trial with the nation's highest court

21:14

considering a similar immunity challenge Very

21:17

likely not or I I think not

21:20

you'd think you'd want to know how the high

21:22

court rules before deciding how to go forward Judge

21:26

McAfee has talked about maybe I know y'all want

21:28

to try everybody together He's talked

21:30

about splitting up the case into what he said

21:32

buckets Have y'all been thinking

21:34

about that possibility and preparing or are you

21:36

gonna keep pushing to try everyone at once?

21:38

I think it's too early to say that

21:41

we're not even a final play date. You don't know how

21:43

many defendants are left I personally

21:45

tried 12 defendants in this courthouse. It

21:47

can be done There's no

21:49

reason to suffer this case. And so we're gonna keep

21:52

pushing that button as you say You

21:55

mentioned recently how this trial could stretch

21:57

into early 2025 and you've talked about

21:59

how politics are not playing a role in your

22:01

decision making. But what would

22:03

happen if Donald Trump wins the White House

22:05

in late 2024? Have you

22:07

studied how this case could continue once

22:10

Trump is inaugurated? I

22:12

believe if a defendant

22:14

is on trial. So I've said many times,

22:17

and I'm not gonna talk about this defendant,

22:19

but this is what I want your viewers

22:21

to appreciate. In

22:24

the United States of America, in Georgia, there

22:27

are 50 district attorney's office. That's in one

22:29

state. There are 50 district attorney's office, with

22:31

many assistant district attorneys in each of those

22:33

offices. And there are district attorneys, or

22:35

some states call them state's attorneys, but

22:38

prosecutors in every state

22:40

in the nation, as well as the federal. And

22:43

in all the federal prosecutor's offices, and

22:45

all the state prosecution offices, people

22:47

are under investigation. Right now, as we

22:50

sit here, they are under investigation for

22:52

theft by shoplifting, they are under investigation

22:54

for murder, they are under investigation for

22:57

burglary, and every kind of crime in between you can

22:59

think of. It

23:01

is nonsensical that

23:03

you're under investigation, and

23:06

you run for office, city council

23:08

person. And because you decide

23:10

to run to be the city council person

23:12

of your city, that that investigation

23:14

would stop, or criminal charges would

23:16

be impacted in any way. I

23:18

hold that position, and I don't care what position

23:20

it is within the United States government. But

23:23

have you anticipated what could happen when all of

23:25

a sudden you, we're talking about presidential power here,

23:27

and I know there isn't a ton of case

23:30

law on it, but this is something that potentially

23:32

would be fought at the Supreme Court, the US

23:34

Supreme Court level. We'll let the

23:36

Supreme Court justices make that decision. But

23:41

the federal law and the state law is

23:43

different. I understand

23:45

that in federal cases, that a

23:47

president can pardon themselves, or

23:50

at least the president can offer a

23:52

pardon to any person that they so choose.

23:55

That's not true in the state of Georgia. At

23:58

that last hearing, a lot of. Talk

24:00

was about allegations of election

24:02

interference with the trial date set

24:05

at the time It was and we know that

24:07

we heard what Nathan Wade had to say about

24:09

that I'd be nice to hear what you would

24:11

have to say I think those claims

24:13

are so silly that we should just move on to

24:16

subject matters that are important. Nobody

24:18

is here on

24:20

January The first 2021

24:23

I became the district attorney. I was

24:26

not thinking about Election

24:28

interference at all. I

24:31

was excited to become the district attorney at Fulton

24:33

County I knew that I had a

24:35

bunch of files that had to clean up that

24:37

there was a backlog that I was walking into

24:39

and I was

24:42

excited about that possibility and

24:44

on the first day of work some information

24:46

came to me that Made

24:49

out that possibly a crime could have been

24:51

committed in my jurisdiction And

24:54

so correct so what I did is

24:56

what I have a legal obligation

24:58

to do and we've been

25:00

proceeding forward ever since In

25:03

the manner in which is appropriate and so I don't

25:07

pay that any attention What I

25:09

have learned is it doesn't matter what I do people don't have something

25:11

to say That's

25:13

what you're getting your 50s and your 50s you start learning

25:16

They don't say something either way But what you should get

25:18

up and do is do the right thing every day follow

25:21

the law follow the facts then you don't have

25:23

to do a bunch of explaining because you tried

25:25

to do hula-hoops or Backflips

25:27

to make something work if you just follow

25:29

the facts follow the law it takes you

25:31

to where you naturally Should end

25:34

up as an officer at the court Coming

25:36

up more from our interview with

25:38

DA Willis and we'll catch

25:41

up with our AJC colleague David Wicker

25:43

who's been in Washington all week covering

25:45

the defamation trial involving Rudy Giuliani and

25:48

Former Fulton County election workers Ruby

25:50

Freeman and Shaye Moss This

25:53

is breakdown from the Atlanta Journal

25:55

Constitution Our

25:57

journalists at the Atlanta Journal Constitution We're

26:00

working around the clock to keep you updated

26:02

on all the developments surrounding the Trump indictment.

26:04

Now, the AJC is putting all of our

26:06

coverage in one place with our new Trump

26:08

19 newsletter. Every

26:10

Wednesday, you'll have our latest coverage and analysis

26:12

on this historic case in your inbox. So

26:15

sign up for free today

26:17

at ajc.com/indictment newsletter. That's all

26:19

one word. ajc.com/indictment

26:23

newsletter. I'm

26:26

Ernie Suggs. And I'm Ned Dravone. Atlanta has been

26:29

known as the Black Mecca for so many years,

26:31

but that means something different to everybody. It

26:34

means everything to me. Every day

26:36

I wake up, I learn something new.

26:38

Well, you all can learn something new

26:40

by subscribing to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution's new

26:42

newsletter called Unapologetically ATL. It's

26:44

all about the people, the

26:46

events, and the entertainment happening

26:49

in metro Atlanta that black

26:51

people might want to know

26:53

about. So subscribe today at

26:56

www.ajc.com/unapologetically atl. Welcome

27:01

back. Here's the rest of our interview

27:03

with DA Willis. How

27:05

helpful was the special purpose grand jury for you?

27:08

And what was that experience like? Every

27:12

jury that serves here and every grand

27:14

jury that serves here, wow,

27:17

they just really

27:20

deserve the thanks of people. You

27:22

hear everybody say that they want to be tough

27:25

on crime or they want to, you

27:27

know, they want somebody else to do it. And

27:30

we have some really great citizens in Fulton

27:32

County that come and serve weeks on

27:34

regular petted juries, which are the juries

27:36

that decide trials. And my grand jury sat

27:38

for two months. They sit two days

27:40

a week. Today is one of the

27:42

days they sit. They're still here. They've been here since

27:44

830 in the morning. I mean, you just want

27:47

to give those people a plaque or an award or

27:49

something. Special purpose grand jury sat for

27:51

months. So I mean,

27:54

they just deserve an award for their service to

27:56

the community. It was very helpful. that

28:01

came forth through them otherwise? No, people were

28:03

telling us to kick rocks. And so

28:05

it became necessary to use special purpose

28:07

grand jury to have subpoena power. And

28:10

so that's what the route I

28:12

need to take. That was the route I took.

28:14

How much of a help was the work of

28:16

the January 6th committee, especially at the end when

28:19

they were releasing all of those raw transcripts? Well,

28:21

we certainly read them. That's

28:23

something I know is under scrutiny by the House Judiciary Committee.

28:25

I know they're also asking a lot of questions about contact you

28:28

may or may not have had with Jack

28:30

Smith's office at DOJ. Have

28:32

they been helpful to you at all? The

28:36

committee that's doing that is foolish. Can

28:38

you talk more about that? Do you feel

28:40

like you're going to have to go up there and

28:43

come testify? If I do, it'll

28:45

be before all of the American people and not in

28:47

some closed door that people can

28:49

misinterpret and lie about what was said.

28:53

And you have taken the step, at

28:56

least with the four defendants who have cut

28:58

plea deals, to request that they write out

29:01

an apology letter to Georgia voters. Can

29:04

you talk about why you did that? I believe you did that

29:06

with the APS case as well. Why did you think

29:08

that was important? We talked

29:10

about the importance of a plea. I

29:13

assume you've been in a relationship before. In

29:16

a relationship, mistakes happen. For

29:18

you to get past those mistakes, they've got to say they're

29:21

sorry. And I think that is

29:23

true. That seems like a very, okay, well,

29:25

that's kind of a silly example, but it's not. If

29:29

you do something wrong that impacts

29:31

the community, just like

29:33

in APS, you did something that hurt so

29:35

many children, then there

29:38

needs to be real contrition. And so

29:40

the contrition doesn't have to be some poetic

29:43

melody. It doesn't have to be pages

29:45

and pages. Sometimes you just need, I'm

29:47

sorry. If you get,

29:49

I'm sorry, then we can move on and move

29:51

past if it's a sincere apology. It doesn't need

29:54

to be very long. In

29:56

fact, all I would rather is a sentence. But

29:59

I think it's important. I think people have to take

30:01

accountability for what they did and that if they

30:03

did something wrong which when you violate the law

30:05

you do something wrong, you

30:07

have to take responsibility for it. And

30:10

so it's important to me in my philosophy is

30:12

that if

30:14

someone commits a crime they have to be held accountable

30:17

and part of being held

30:19

accountable is apologizing for your conduct.

30:22

One defendant in particular has said

30:25

some pretty nasty things about you in

30:27

speeches and campaign

30:30

events. Mr. Trump,

30:32

of course, I'm not suggesting you should

30:34

say anything bad about him but if you were

30:36

to say anything to him what would you have

30:38

to say? I would never

30:40

say anything personally negative about

30:43

him. That's beneath me. His

30:46

conduct that is beneath me and so you

30:48

will never hear me utter anything

30:51

nasty or negative about

30:53

him or any other

30:55

defendant which we prosecute. I

30:58

am here because the conduct that people do

31:00

is against the law and so I have

31:02

a duty to bring charges if someone

31:04

violates the law within my jurisdiction

31:07

and people's opinions of me

31:10

at campaign rallies. I don't value their

31:12

opinions and so they don't weigh on

31:14

me. Before

31:16

we left, we wanted to ask D.A. Willis

31:18

about her political future. Years

31:21

where her openness surprised us a bit. Your

31:24

name always comes up in discussions about

31:26

candidates for higher office in 2026 or beyond

31:30

that. Do you see yourself wanting to run

31:32

for any higher level positions? I know you're running for reelection

31:34

next year but have you thought about your future

31:37

beyond Fulton County potentially? No. When I

31:39

became the district attorney in Fulton County I wanted

31:41

to do three terms, 12 years. My

31:44

philosophy on my three terms in my 12 years

31:46

is that I thought that it would take to

31:49

really turn the office around to exactly

31:51

where it needed to be about six years.

31:54

I think we are well on our way. In

31:56

fact, I think we're ahead of pace of where

31:58

I thought we would be. A lot of long

32:00

15-hour days. but I do think we are ahead

32:02

of pace. And then I thought the next six

32:04

years would be about my legacy as the district

32:06

attorney and the dreams that I

32:08

had for this county. One of those is

32:10

very, very important to me that we get

32:12

a family center here

32:15

who are victims of domestic violence

32:17

and their children and

32:19

everyone that is impacted by domestic violence

32:21

can really get all the services that

32:23

they need. So that is a dream of

32:25

mine that I'm determined to make sure that

32:27

we bring to Fulton County. Another dream is

32:29

that we have a huge diversion program.

32:32

People told me I wouldn't get past 50 people. I

32:35

want them to all know I'm at 566 participants and

32:38

181 that had graduated. Another

32:41

dream is I want to stop seeing all these kids.

32:43

I don't want to see them in court. I don't

32:45

want to see them here. I want to see them

32:48

in the classroom. And so we have a very robust

32:50

what we call the REACH program. I

32:52

went into six schools last year and we touched

32:54

150 kids. I'm

32:56

in 15 schools this year. We have 400 children.

32:59

And my motto is I'd rather see you in a classroom

33:01

than a courtroom. And so we're teaching them

33:03

about all the life opportunities they have, the dangers

33:05

of gang violence. And so although we are

33:07

already starting to put that Tawny Willis stamp

33:09

on what it can look like when you

33:12

really have a DA that's giving back to

33:14

the community, thought the last years would be

33:16

that final stamp. So when people ask me

33:18

about, you know, you should run for higher

33:20

office. I have not thought about it. I

33:22

will tell you the only time that it

33:25

comes to mind. Sometimes what I realize is

33:27

every social issue hits a district attorney's office,

33:29

everything. We just talked about children, right? They

33:31

hit it. The homeless and

33:34

the things that happen with them, all

33:36

of these issues hit it. And so

33:38

sometimes I wish I had the

33:42

power to make decisions in other areas. And

33:45

if there was something that I could do that

33:47

would impact my state in a great way, maybe

33:50

I would consider it. But I'm still doing my work

33:52

here and I've got work left to do here. Maybe

33:55

attorney general, governor. God

33:58

always has a plan. bigger and greater

34:01

than yours but my I'm

34:09

a trial lawyer at my soul so that

34:12

that is my favorite job of all time

34:14

to try murder cases where I shine so

34:17

you know I would be lying to say I don't

34:19

miss the courtroom but I have found an advocacy and

34:21

being the DA one thing that is good

34:23

is I'm not someone who just got elected to this position as and didn't do the work

34:26

as you know I've been practicing 27 years I've been a defense attorney I've been a criminal

34:28

lawyer but my passion was really that 18 years ago. And

34:34

I'm a criminal lawyer and I've been a criminal lawyer for the last 10

34:36

years I spent as a felony level prosecutor

34:38

and that experience it really arms me with

34:40

what I need to know what my people need so

34:42

it was me when my people come in and say

34:44

they need X and I'm like you don't need X

34:47

you can do this job quite effectively without X

34:49

but I also know that the things that they

34:51

do need to be effective and to make sure

34:53

that we're given the citizens what they need which

34:56

is justice when something horrible happens to you you

34:58

need justice and I don't just mean the victims.

35:01

It's a horrible thing to be charged with a

35:03

crime that you did not commit and so it's

35:05

important to have an office that uses my strategy

35:07

which is when the police make an arrest we

35:09

don't just invite you we make sure that we

35:11

look at the case and make sure that the

35:14

charges that are brought against you are appropriate and

35:16

that everyone has a chance and that sometimes we'll

35:19

find that yes the charges were appropriate but

35:21

maybe a better route for you is diversion

35:23

maybe you can learn anger management

35:25

maybe you can learn how deaf really impacts

35:27

the whole community. Maybe we can get you

35:29

job training and restore you and make sure

35:32

that you can be a productive member of

35:34

society so it's an important seat to sit

35:36

in and there's so much good work that

35:38

we are doing and that will continue to

35:40

do. So there

35:42

you have it. Thank you. kind

38:00

of on top of the world. She thought it went really

38:02

well. She was an

38:04

interim supervisor and thought that she might get

38:06

promoted. She got

38:08

called into her supervisor's office about a month

38:10

later thinking that she was

38:12

going to, maybe she was

38:14

gonna find out about the promotion or that she

38:17

would, her people might be getting an award. Instead

38:20

she found out that she and

38:22

her mother were being accused of voting

38:24

fraud. And

38:26

then she started reading all the messages that

38:28

were coming at her from social media, from

38:30

people who had heard these allegations. And

38:33

many of them were vile racist

38:36

threats. Her son received them

38:38

as well because he was using an old

38:40

phone of hers that she had

38:42

given him. And so she

38:44

really talked about how she

38:46

went from kind of an outgoing,

38:49

happy person to someone who's

38:51

suffering from depression and acute

38:53

anxiety. She has

38:56

panic attacks. She's afraid to go out

38:58

at night. She

39:00

has, she's had nightmares about being

39:02

lynched. So a

39:05

pretty dramatic change in her life

39:07

that she described. Yeah,

39:09

and it sounds like her testimony was pretty

39:11

emotional. She choked up on

39:13

the sand, is that right? Yeah,

39:15

she testified for most of the

39:18

day between being examined by her

39:20

own attorneys and then being cross

39:23

examined by Mr. Giuliani's attorney,

39:25

Joseph Sibley. And

39:27

she had a box of

39:29

Kleenexes in front of her

39:31

and she kept using them.

39:33

I mean, she kind of

39:35

wept softly at times and other

39:38

times had to take a break. The judge let

39:41

her collect herself, but it was definitely very emotional.

39:44

Rudy Giuliani has not taken the stand

39:46

yet, but he has made some news

39:48

outside the courtroom. Can you tell us

39:50

about what he said and what's

39:53

been the result of that? Sure,

39:57

yeah, it's interesting. Mr. Giuliani has.

40:00

mostly sat fairly stoically

40:03

in the courtroom, listened

40:05

to, you know, Shay Moss's testimony

40:08

yesterday, but outside he's been very

40:12

vociferous. He, on

40:15

Monday evening after court, he

40:17

told reporters that he planned to

40:19

testify that the allegations he made against

40:21

these election workers were true and

40:25

that we should wait for his testimony because

40:27

all would be revealed. Now that caught the

40:29

attention of the plaintiffs' attorneys and the judge.

40:33

The judge has already ruled that

40:35

the allegations are false. They were

40:37

demonstrated to be false by investigations

40:39

by the FBI, the GBI, and

40:42

the Secretary of State's office. Mr.

40:45

Giuliani himself in court records

40:47

stipulated that the allegations were

40:49

false and in opening

40:51

arguments his attorney acknowledged they were

40:54

false and said it's horrible what

40:56

happened to these election workers. But

40:58

on Monday Mr. Giuliani

41:00

is making other statements

41:03

and the plaintiff's attorney is basically asked

41:05

the judge to prevent him from testifying

41:07

to that effect and she did in

41:10

fact order him that he could

41:12

not testify that his allegations were true.

41:15

Can those comments outside the courtroom be used

41:17

against him in court? Well

41:20

the judge more or less told his

41:23

attorney as much that they

41:26

could be used as

41:28

evidence and punitive damages. She

41:32

more or less said that he's continuing

41:34

to defame the clients and

41:36

in fact the comments came up in

41:38

Ms. Moss's testimony because she said

41:41

you know when I went back to my

41:43

hotel that night there was Mr. Giuliani on

41:46

TV and she listened and

41:48

she heard these comments and

41:50

it's already

41:52

been introduced as evidence. When

41:55

else do you expect before this trial wraps up? What

41:58

should we be looking forward to? Well,

42:01

right now we've been listening

42:03

to testimony from an expert

42:05

witness who is offering

42:08

a rationale for quantifying the damages

42:10

suffered by Ruby Freeman and Shane

42:13

Moss. According

42:15

to her calculations, you know, it would

42:17

cost up to $47 million or so to repair their

42:21

reputations, which have been damaged. We'll

42:24

hear what Mr. Giuliani's attorney says to

42:27

that after lunch. We also expect

42:29

to hear from Ruby Freeman this afternoon, the

42:31

other election worker, Shane Moss's mother.

42:34

And the plaintiff's attorney has indicated

42:36

this morning that they hope to

42:38

wrap up their case today. And

42:40

so that could mean that Ms.

42:42

Freeman is their last witness, but

42:44

Mr. Giuliani may yet testify

42:49

probably tomorrow if it happens. And

42:52

just a reminder that this trial

42:54

is not about defamation per

42:56

se. It's about damages and

42:59

how much damages should be awarded to

43:01

these two women. The

43:03

judge has already ruled that Rudy

43:06

Giuliani defamed them. David,

43:08

how much are Ruby Freeman and

43:10

Shane Moss speaking? And

43:13

what has Giuliani's lawyer said about that number?

43:17

Well, they're seeking that,

43:19

you know, up

43:22

to $47 million in

43:24

compensatory damages. This is

43:26

compensating them for out-of-pocket

43:29

things like, you know, having to move

43:31

from your house or hiring security and

43:33

things like that, but also

43:35

for the

43:38

emotional toll that this has taken on them. But

43:42

in addition to compensatory damages,

43:44

they're seeking unspecified punitive damages

43:46

to deter Mr.

43:50

Giuliani from making these statements in the future

43:53

and to punish him. Now

43:55

Mr. Giuliani's attorney has said that's too

43:57

much. You can't.

43:59

You know, it's horrible what happened to

44:02

them, but you can't hang all of it on him.

44:07

There's been some back and forth about

44:09

what exactly Mr. Giuliani will be able

44:11

to argue when it comes to how

44:14

much damage is appropriate. But one thing he

44:17

can't argue is that he's not responsible for

44:20

defaming them or inflicting emotional

44:22

distress. It would be really

44:24

interesting when and if he takes the

44:26

stand. David, thank you so much. It

44:29

was good to be here. Before

44:31

we go, we have a few last things to catch you

44:33

up on. Shortly after we

44:35

published the last episode of Breakdown, Bill,

44:37

our colleague Greg Blustein and I, broke

44:39

some pretty big news about a few

44:41

of the marquee names on D.A. Willis's

44:43

witness list for the upcoming trial. It

44:46

includes some of the top officials who

44:48

served in the Trump administration, including former

44:51

Vice President Mike Pence, Attorney

44:53

General Bill Barr, Justice

44:55

Department leaders Jeffrey Rosen and Richard

44:57

Donahue, and Steve Bannon, the

45:00

one-time Trump strategist and conservative

45:02

provocateur. Prosecutors

45:05

could also decide to call some of

45:07

Georgia's top officials who received Trump phone

45:09

calls after the 2020 election. They

45:13

include Governor Brian Kim, Secretary

45:15

of State Brad Rappensperger and

45:17

Attorney General Chris Carr. Those

45:20

folks have long been of interest to

45:22

Fulton prosecutors, but we were more

45:24

intrigued to learn about some of the other names on

45:26

the list. John Isaacson and

45:28

C.J. Pearson. They are

45:31

two Republicans who were slated to serve

45:33

as Trump electors, but backed out before

45:35

the group met at the state Capitol

45:37

on December 14, 2020. Prosecutors

45:42

also listed former Chief of

45:44

Staff Mark Meadows' aide Cassidy

45:46

Hutchison and Pennsylvania Congressman Scott

45:48

Perry. The prosecution's witness

45:50

list is nearly 200 people long. It's

45:54

possible the DA's office doesn't ask all of

45:56

them to testify at trial, though their names

45:58

must be on the list. for them to

46:00

be called. So

46:03

that's it for us. Next week,

46:05

we'll update you on the Giuliani defamation

46:07

case as it wraps up, and we'll

46:09

dive into oral arguments from this Friday's

46:12

hearing at the 11th U.S. Circuit Court

46:14

of Appeals in Atlanta, where

46:16

former White House Chief of Staff Mark

46:18

Meadows is trying once again to remove

46:20

his Fulton County case to federal court.

46:24

As always, thanks so very much for

46:26

listening. This month's producer

46:28

is Alexandra Zaslow. Our sound

46:31

engineer is Shane Backler. Our

46:33

podcast program manager is Jay Black. Thanks

46:36

to our presentation specialist Pete Corson,

46:38

our colleague David Wickert, editor

46:40

Jennifer Brett, and the AJC's

46:43

editor-in-chief, Leroy Chapman. You

46:45

can follow our daily coverage on

46:47

our website, ajc.com, and if you

46:49

really want to support local journalism,

46:51

please subscribe to the AJC. Be

46:54

safe and take care. Until next

46:56

time, I'm Bill Rankin. I'm

46:58

Tamar Hallertman. And I'm

47:00

Shannon McCaffrey. This is Breakdown

47:02

from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.