0:00

it's worth knowing what's

0:02

really going on is

0:05

the atlanta journal constitution?

0:10

previously on

0:12

breakdown for , was

0:14

irritating no malice a full of skirting

0:16

around with ballot nobody in the room

0:19

hiding around silva this they

0:21

would i guess has a our job but if

0:23

we narrowed down to the particulars

0:26

of of i understand

0:28

that the a to be looking into would

0:30

into whether there's

0:32

any criminal or a legal product

0:35

at yeah i legal product even think it's

0:37

really close to be fair

0:39

the affable if the da

0:41

i believe she's already indicated she is looking

0:44

into the allegations

0:46

of a collector's it's possible

0:48

that anybody involved in that

0:50

particular skiing the could alter the

0:53

investigated and potentially charged

0:56

under this criminal solicitation

0:58

felony

0:59

that you we've laid out many

1:01

of the state laws fulton county district attorney

1:03

funny well as could consider as see decides

1:05

whether to press charges against donald

1:08

trump and his allies for their conduct in

1:10

georgia following the two thousand and twenty

1:12

election

1:13

proof that any of their behavior with criminal

1:15

prosecutors must show criminal intent

1:18

that trump rudy giuliani and

1:20

others knew that what they were doing was

1:22

illegal and that they met to break the

1:24

law and that's not easy

1:27

this is the the nine episode four

1:30

of breakdown the trump grand jury from

1:32

the atlanta journal constitution

1:35

people say the metaverse will only

1:38

be virtual but one day

1:40

in the metaverse doctors will practice

1:42

high risk surgery hundreds of times

1:44

before they operate on real patient and

1:47

students will be transported to ancient

1:49

rome and saturn's rings improving

1:52

health outcomes learning and more

1:54

the metaverse maybe virtual but the impact

1:57

will be real learn more about

1:59

what better is

1:59

building for the metaverse at the meta dot

2:02

com slash metaverse impact

2:05

i'm already sucks and i'm not sure of one

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atlanta has been known as the black mecca for so many

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years but that means something different to everybody

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it , everything everything day i wake

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social scribe today www

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ait dot com slash

2:34

unapologetically dot com

2:41

welcome back to break down the podcast

2:44

from the atlanta journal constitution the covers

2:46

george's most important cases were

2:49

, the trump grand jury and fulton

2:51

county until rankin legal

2:53

affairs reporter for the a daisy

2:55

i'm i'm are hallerman i covered the

2:57

trump presidency from our washington bureau

2:59

and i'm now closely following the special purpose

3:02

juri legal experts are divided

3:04

on whether the intent was there and

3:07

somewhat surprisingly somewhat surprisingly

3:09

one of those matters that falls neatly along

3:11

party lines there's done samuel

3:13

breakdowns resident legal experts he

3:16

says he disagrees with about ninety percent

3:18

of what trump did as president but

3:21

he also says this about the january

3:23

second phone call when he said

3:25

fire me eleven thousand eight hundred votes people

3:27

think

3:28

that is a clear

3:30

indication of a

3:32

inducement to falsify

3:35

election results by eleven thousand eight hundred

3:39

maybe that's what he meant

3:41

that's not what the words or what the words are

3:44

given all the fraud that has been reported

3:46

given all the mistakes that have been reported

3:49

and just

3:51

there's and tabulations an absentee

3:53

ballots that shouldn't have been counted for biden

3:56

or maybe were thrown out that shouldn't

3:58

have been thrown out for trump

4:00

digg and see if you can find

4:02

those you know enough votes to make up

4:05

the difference

4:05

haven't been there for crown

4:07

the only if you would use the interpretation

4:10

that what he meant

4:12

the unequivocal they what he meant in this

4:14

phone call was i want you to falsify

4:16

the results

4:17

i don't

4:18

i'm not convinced that that's what he meant

4:21

by that

4:21

samuel spoke with us before he was hired

4:24

by the state legislature to represent it's

4:26

members in the fulton da's inquiry

4:28

as i don't want to defend them

4:30

i don't want to be the position of saying he's his

4:32

innocence is this you now as the driven

4:34

snapped site i

4:36

, i understand that he is

4:38

behavior is absolutely reprehensible

4:41

but as but between being immoral

4:45

amoral reprehensible

4:47

and being a criminal

4:49

and prove beyond reasonable doubt requires

4:51

more than was don't you think that's what he meant

4:53

he brings up an important point

4:55

look beyond a reasonable doubt is the highest

4:58

burden of proof if an indictment

5:00

as he ended up the prosecution must convince

5:02

twelve jurors that the standard has been met

5:04

to obtain a conviction but for

5:06

samuel there's an even bigger issue

5:08

than kilter enough

5:09

and for some reason

5:12

the people who are urging funny

5:14

well as to indict one twelve people

5:16

to decide this question

5:18

randomly selected twelve people in fulton

5:21

county the that

5:23

running the way we should decide what to do

5:25

the favor of an ex president you

5:28

know it's a slippery slope as and

5:30

it's really dangerous thing to deal with

5:33

politics to the criminal justice system clapping

5:36

the to on that for a while for

5:38

better or worse this political mess

5:40

is now a criminal investigation as

5:43

we said in these kinds of cases

5:45

prosecutors will have to prove there

5:47

was criminal intent it's called

5:50

mens rea which is latin

5:52

for guilty mind

5:54

many say this is trump's best defense

5:56

that he genuinely believed there was fraud

5:59

and that he wasn't

5:59

the secretary of state brad ross and springer

6:02

to do anything illegal

6:03

it was simply asking him to do his job

6:06

that is really about it

6:08

this is andrew placements he's a criminal

6:10

defense lawyer in atlanta and like samuel

6:12

no fan of trump

6:14

people have would also at the the fried

6:16

statue but again fraud requires

6:18

nine for see if i sell you something that i believe

6:21

will sure your headaches i had it doesn't

6:23

not fraud we did

6:25

both got duped and

6:27

here the president saying all this five

6:30

thousand that people voting i mean

6:32

he still say if he certainly has to

6:34

stop he's never made an admission that is not true

6:37

i don't know what you throwback to say oh

6:39

yeah he's a hypocrite he doesn't really believe the things

6:41

he is very good a bleeding things that are beneficial

6:43

to happen

6:45

the great talents don't

6:47

have troops as crazy things that makes them bullet

6:49

proof it means that a he so

6:51

routinely says the seat and certainly seems to

6:53

believe some there's a

6:54

or came out what last week about how he thought

6:57

china was shooting us with hurricane gun

7:00

there's magic marker on a map

7:02

where he fatherhood you can reach at alabama

7:04

the drawdown because he was so sure that was true

7:07

though you want me to believe beyond

7:10

a reasonable doubt the donald trump couldn't believe a crazy

7:12

thing

7:13

i got doubt

7:14

mercy mccarthy chair of the dekalb

7:16

county geo p is a fan of the former

7:18

president she says there was

7:20

no wrongdoing

7:22

i've listened to call i've listened to

7:24

all the call of with what read the transcripts

7:26

because quite frankly i was quite

7:28

curious myself i am a trump

7:30

supporter that are for nothing wrong

7:33

in the call

7:34

the atlanta lawyer randy evans was trump's

7:36

ambassador to luxembourg the

7:38

also served on the georgia board of elections

7:41

he says it was not unusual for losing candidates

7:43

and campaign managers to come in and

7:45

lodge allegations of fraud and

7:48

on occasion authorities would find

7:51

haven't says he doesn't oppose the special grand

7:53

jury investigation these are

7:55

the their questions get them answered that

7:58

he doesn't see it going anywhere

8:00

and so

8:01

the practitioner at have to say

8:04

i am always a favor

8:06

of why

8:08

she and i'll take a look so when

8:11

people say to may and you

8:13

know you gotta grand jury

8:15

why did doesn't have a diamond power

8:18

taken a lock to make sure

8:21

are you know

8:24

the injury should take a look at anything further

8:26

questions

8:28

both sides of the issue

8:29

the got think there's any

8:32

reasonable basis upon which yeah

8:34

an indictment could be married and the district

8:37

attorney's discretion now i really doubt

8:39

up having looked at the statements

8:41

from everybody on the call i'd

8:44

be pretty hard

8:45

press prove beyond reasonable doubt that they

8:47

were some suggested that

8:49

of anybody was crawling on crawling legal

8:52

product because know we

8:54

all agree there's nothing wrong with asking

8:57

for

8:58

the legal

8:59

remedies

9:01

right like i decide i want

9:03

another account or i want this or are one

9:05

that there's other all without question

9:07

is was there ever a suggested

9:09

that

9:10

they and cat was

9:13

too

9:14

the fabricate a ballot fabricated

9:17

review

9:18

the abrogate of finding a fraud fabricate

9:21

any of that of this everybody

9:23

agrees

9:24

that i've seen that

9:27

nobody nobody thought that

9:29

i felt the pressure the radicals

9:31

pressure when you've got the candidates

9:34

and how places making phone calls are

9:36

you

9:37

but and only there was any suggestion

9:40

that

9:41

there was like we want you to go

9:43

we want to go make stuff up

9:45

evan says there's also the fact that

9:48

even after trump pushed him rapids

9:50

burger didn't do anything to change the

9:52

election results i think that candidates

9:55

try to get reelected or

9:57

to typically gotta break as much

9:59

the bears they key and and the best

10:02

example the

10:03

it wasn't as the didn't work

10:06

the even if you believe the most

10:09

the extreme view you thought okay

10:12

space talalay cross the line that

10:15

would be that would be large labour

10:17

bought it by the fact that

10:19

that is for the dirty

10:21

or i did things but he didn't even

10:23

do it out what people

10:25

were suggesting

10:27

that from was asking him to

10:30

do

10:31

on june nineteenth trump save

10:34

america pac circulated a social media

10:36

posts from the former president it

10:38

was in response to the most recent hearings by

10:40

the select committee investigating the january

10:42

sixth riot proper period

10:44

what he had previously sad about his phone calls

10:47

rations

10:47

he said quote my

10:50

, call to the georgia secretary

10:52

of state with many other people including

10:55

numerous lawyers knowingly on the

10:57

line was absolutely perfect

10:59

and appropriate yes it

11:02

was yes it call

11:03

in a separate post trump accuse

11:05

the committee of trying to create a fake

11:07

narrative that he knew he lost the election

11:10

trump said he believed from the beginning the election

11:12

was rigged and stolen and his belief

11:15

has only gotten stronger since

11:16

also in the months leading

11:19

up to the election trump was saying

11:21

if he were to lose it would be because

11:23

of fraud here , is an os

11:25

kosh wisconsin and august

11:28

two thousand twenty the only

11:30

way i was it allows us allies

11:32

in his if the election is

11:34

rigged remember that the only

11:36

while ago as ago celestial so

11:38

we have to be very careful

11:40

and here he is addressing his supporters

11:42

in the early morning hours after election

11:44

day

11:45

this is a fraud

11:47

the american public this

11:49

is an embarrassment to our country

11:52

we were getting ready to win this

11:55

election frankly we

11:57

did when the

11:59

but prosecutors no doubt

12:02

will show that trump in the lead up to

12:04

the rapids burger call the told

12:06

over and over that there was no widespread

12:08

fraud in the election especially

12:10

nothing on the scale they would overturn george's

12:13

result them by asking for election

12:15

officials to find a different more favorable

12:18

results the knew he was

12:20

asking for something illegal

12:22

here's what trump new shortly after

12:24

the election in the department of homeland security's

12:26

cyber security and in there's

12:32

no evidence that any voting system

12:34

deleted or last votes changed

12:36

votes or was in any way compromised

12:39

years chris crabs who had at the agency

12:41

november twelve two that are two thousand twenty

12:44

government industry representatives from me

12:46

a lesson security community issued a joint

12:48

statement reflecting a consensus

12:51

perspective that the twenty twenty election

12:53

was the most secure in us history

12:56

on november seventeenth krebs tweets

12:58

about allegations that election systems

13:00

were manipulated he says

13:03

election security experts agree

13:05

quotes in every case of which

13:07

we are aware these claims

13:10

either have been unsubstantiated

13:12

or are technically incoherent

13:15

later that day trump since out his own

13:17

tweet he says crabs had

13:19

been fired

13:22

what follows are accounts of what happens

13:24

over the next few days from former us

13:26

attorney general bill barr we're

13:28

going to intersperse some of his testimony

13:30

before the select committee investigating

13:33

the january sixth riot with

13:35

what he wrote in his book one damn

13:37

thing after another

13:38

on november twenty third bar comes

13:41

to the oval office trump and

13:43

mark meadows are there trump

13:45

continues to insist there had been major

13:47

fraud and he says once the facts

13:49

are out the results of the election will be reversed

13:52

the president also tells bar that apparently

13:54

the justice department doesn't think it has

13:56

a role in looking into

13:57

proud plans or as a job that has

13:59

the

13:59

the campaign that raises that

14:02

with the state department's doesn't

14:04

take sides in elections and the department

14:06

is not an extension of your legal

14:08

team or and our role is to

14:11

investigate fraud and this and will look at

14:13

something if it's specific credible intel

14:15

affected the outcome of the election and

14:17

and we're doing that and it's just not meritorious

14:20

there are panning out as far leaves

14:23

the oval office he runs into jared kushner

14:25

the president's adviser and fun and

14:28

and i said the

14:30

album is how long as eagerly carry

14:33

on with this stolen election stuff

14:35

forces come and go and by

14:38

that time on meadows had caught

14:40

up with me leaving the

14:42

office and corpses may and

14:44

and says summarize i thinks

14:47

that she's becoming more realistic

14:50

and knows this knows this limit to how far

14:52

he can take this and then jared said

14:54

you know yeah we're working on this will work at a

14:57

bar says matters deteriorated over

14:59

the next day

15:01

then on november twenty ninth trump

15:03

appears on the fox news shows sunday more

15:05

the future is this election was over and

15:07

then they did dumps they call

15:09

him dumps big massive dumps

15:12

in michigan and pennsylvania

15:15

and , all over our

15:17

the f b i and department of justice

15:19

i don't know maybe they're involved but

15:21

how people are allowed to get away from the start

15:24

of with the stuff is available

15:26

our says i felt like i couldn't stay

15:28

quiet after hearing that his son

15:30

and my skin but i also felt it was time

15:32

for me to say something so on a

15:35

head sen obama

15:37

a lunch with the a p was order quite

15:39

bizarre mouth and

15:41

i told him at lunch bizarre

15:44

made the statement that today

15:46

we're not seen for on a scale

15:48

that said it affected it affected outcome

15:50

in the election

15:51

bar has previously scheduled meeting

15:54

that afternoon at the white house he

15:56

says as is leaving he tells his secretary

15:58

he was probably going to be fired

15:59

you might have to pack up for me at

16:02

the white house far as in a meeting when he gets

16:04

worried trump wants to see

16:06

the escorted to trump's private dining

16:08

room just outside the oval office and

16:11

president was is madness i've ever seen

16:13

that many is trying to control themselves president

16:16

said melissa speaking on killing me ah

16:18

you didn't have to say this you must have said this

16:20

because you see trump you see trump

16:23

the bar rights that he told trump's the justice

16:25

department was not an extension of the president's

16:27

legal team

16:28

quote

16:29

the mission is to investigate and prosecute

16:32

actual fraud the fact is

16:34

we've looked at the major claims your people are making

16:36

and they are be as

16:38

var wrote that when he offered to resign trump

16:41

slammed his palm on the table and said

16:43

except that white house

16:45

aides ran down bar before his car

16:47

left the white house grounds and told him trump

16:49

didn't mean still bar

16:51

would resign twenty two days later

16:54

this is breakdown from the atlanta

16:56

journal constitution the

16:58

facts matter now more than ever

17:01

get unlimited digital access to

17:03

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17:23

the order is the nation's political battles

17:25

around we gotta fight we've never

17:27

thought before the mud

17:28

the only works when we work for

17:30

a see inform during a historic election

17:33

with politically georgia from the atlanta journal

17:35

the constitution out of that we've ever covered

17:37

election quite like this one

17:38

political insiders greg blues scene and

17:40

patricia murphy have source of experience

17:43

and analysis no one else has

17:45

get a really good feel on the ground

17:48

her what politics in georgia looks like

17:50

and feels like politically georgia listen

17:52

at a d c dot com slash politics or

17:55

wherever you get your podcasts

17:59

the

17:59

you can make note of another passage in bars

18:02

book he recounts a conversation

18:04

he had with his friend white house lawyer

18:06

erik hersman after the election bar

18:09

says quote jesus eric

18:11

we're just not seeing the evidence of widespread

18:13

fraud and i'm worried how far the president

18:16

is taking the stolen election stuff

18:18

according to bar hersman responds

18:20

by saying there's a group of outsiders

18:23

like giuliani and his crew who are hammering

18:25

away nonstop the trump about all

18:27

the evidence and fraud quote they

18:30

are telling him what he wants to hear and

18:32

they are so categorical above the fact

18:35

that he is disposed to believe them

18:37

bar than tells hershman the evidence

18:39

of fraud trump's lawyers have come up with was

18:42

nonsense

18:43

hersman responds by telling bar he

18:45

was pushing back against the fraud claims

18:48

he says he told the president was evidence

18:51

the election was stolen in the sense they're

18:53

saying hasn't been produced are

18:55

also writes that after the election

18:58

trump was cloak beyond

19:00

restraint he would only listen to

19:02

a few sycophants who told him what he wanted

19:04

to hear reasoning with him

19:06

was hopeless

19:08

here's what far told the january six committee

19:10

about how he felt after having another conversation

19:13

with trump almost two weeks later barr

19:15

said that once again trump had

19:17

gone off saying there was now definitive

19:20

evidence of fraud

19:21

i was somewhat ,

19:24

because i said voice he really

19:26

believes this stuff vs on the

19:28

task of reality if he really

19:30

believed stuff on the other

19:32

hand you know when i went into this and

19:35

would

19:37

tell him how crazy some of these

19:39

allegations were there was never an

19:41

indication of the

19:43

interest

19:45

what the actual facts

19:47

are made it clear to the select committee

19:49

that on more than one occasion he

19:51

told trump there was nothing behind

19:54

the fraud claims

19:55

this was released during the first prime

19:57

time hearing on june ninth here's

19:59

list cheney

19:59

wyoming having it up

20:01

president trump's attorney general bill bar

20:04

also told donald some his election

20:06

signs were wrong

20:08

li told

20:10

, president no uncertain terms

20:12

of s i did

20:14

not see evidence of fraud

20:19

fraud have shown that would have affected

20:21

the outcome of the election

20:24

and frankly year and frankly half later i

20:26

haven't seen anything to change my

20:28

mind on man

20:29

even the president's daughter ivanka

20:32

believed what bar had determined

20:34

that affect your perspective about the election

20:36

was too young barbie doll same it

20:38

the affected my perspective some

20:41

paid for sex has

20:42

the general bar

20:44

though a he

20:47

similar sense

20:48

jason miller a senior trump campaign

20:51

spokesman also testified before

20:53

the january six committee here

20:55

he is describing a phone call he arranged

20:57

with trump and the president's own internal

20:59

data expert

21:01

i was in the oval office

21:03

the

21:04

the and the

21:06

boy the conversation matters cause he's

21:09

who is believe that a person was brought

21:11

on i

21:13

never she delivered to the president

21:15

pretty blunt terms he was

21:18

going to lose

21:20

now i'm miller

21:23

on mad and data seems

21:25

assessment of the sort of county

21:27

by county saved by same results

21:30

as reporters

21:32

that

21:33

and then there's alex cannon he

21:35

was one of the trump campaign's lawyers

21:37

one of his responsibilities was to assess allegations

21:40

of election fraud in the weeks after the election

21:43

here's what he told the january six committee about

21:45

a conversation he had with white house chief

21:47

of staff mark meadows

21:49

i remember

21:51

the call home with

21:54

mister meadows mr

21:56

matters is asking me what

21:58

i was finding in if i was finding anything

22:02

i remember sharing with him that we

22:04

were finding anything that would

22:06

be sufficient to do

22:10

can you do results in any of the key states

22:14

well me that elevators

22:15

probably a november mid

22:18

mid to late november and think it was before my child

22:20

was born

22:21

what would return meadows reaction to that information

22:24

i believe the words he used for so

22:27

there's no there there

22:28

that we think it's important to consider

22:30

all this context three first

22:33

person accounts from trump's

22:35

own appointees aids and lawyers

22:37

and how it may or may not show criminal

22:39

intent down here in georgia

22:41

what did the president know

22:43

what did he really believe and

22:45

even more unsettling question what

22:48

he of sound mind

22:50

there are also the to recounts in georgia

22:52

one by hand and both overseen by republican

22:55

officials that reaffirmed trump's

22:57

defeat the multiple lawsuits

22:59

filed by the president's allies were thrown

23:01

out of court

23:02

the claims of fraud were also investigated by

23:04

trump's us attorney in atlanta bj

23:06

pack this includes giuliani's

23:09

allegations that suitcases of ballots

23:11

were counted a legally on election night

23:13

in atlanta state farm arena

23:15

that testified about this before the

23:17

select committee on june thirteen he

23:20

said in early december two thousand

23:22

and twenty attorney general barr

23:24

asked him to look into giuliani's

23:26

allegations concerning the state

23:28

farm arena video

23:30

there's

23:31

unfortunately are new senate

23:33

hearing the giuliani only

23:36

play the clip show them pulling out

23:38

official ballot box from under the

23:40

table i'm referring to that is

23:42

a smoking gun of fraud and fulton

23:44

county when acts rowdy and review

23:46

of the entire video is

23:49

so that i was actually official ballot

23:51

box that would accept underneath the table

23:54

and then the we saw them pack up

23:56

because the announcement that they thought they were done for the night

23:59

there one the announcers made a used to continue

24:01

can count thing they brought the ballot that

24:04

fuck out and they continue to

24:06

help the interviewed the

24:08

at the i interviewed the individuals that are depicted

24:11

in the video is

24:13

properly were double triple counting

24:15

on the ballot and determined

24:17

that nothing irregular happen in the county

24:20

and the allegations made by mr

24:22

giuliani were

24:25

the january six committee also released

24:27

audio as statements made by richard donahue

24:30

who became acting deputy us attorney

24:32

general when bar resigned on december

24:34

twenty third he says he told trump

24:36

exactly what pack and the f b i had

24:39

found

24:40

i told myself that several

24:42

times in several conversations

24:44

that these allegations about ballots

24:46

be smooth and is a suitcase

24:49

and run through the machine summer

24:51

time it was not true that we looked

24:53

and looked at the video interview the witnesses

24:55

who was not true

24:57

in his book bar rights that he had

24:59

told the president the same thing

25:01

are also writes did he told trump

25:03

he thought the president's legal team at the time

25:06

was the clown show

25:08

heart is a former state legislator

25:10

he resigned two days after the january second

25:12

phone call the president called him

25:14

a never trump

25:15

nobody here make a case for that bread nobody

25:18

emil access you have to be a child

25:21

to think anything other than that just

25:23

that child i mean you have you never

25:25

know the journey of it

25:27

rak would later testified before the senate judiciary

25:30

committee that he stepped out after being told

25:32

that trump wanted him out immediately

25:34

trump surprises many by bypassing

25:36

the prosecutor next in line at the us

25:38

attorney's office in atlanta instead

25:41

he assigns bobby christine the

25:43

us attorney in savannah to take over

25:45

the atlanta office and investigate the fraud

25:48

claims it doesn't take long

25:50

for christine to conclude there was

25:52

nothing to the and he tells his office

25:54

just that in a virtual meeting our

25:57

colleague the aj see is chris joyner

25:59

obtained according of that meeting there

26:02

is christine

26:03

david not out of self aggrandizement

26:05

i say it seems to hopefully bring

26:07

some comfort to you but also

26:10

because i'm frustrated i would love to stand out

26:12

on the street corner and scream this and i can't i

26:14

can tell you close

26:17

the two most i

26:19

, i guess you com high profile

26:21

of to most pressing election issues this

26:24

office has has said

26:26

i believe as many

26:28

the people around the table the there's

26:31

just nothing to there's no there there's

26:34

fulton county da a funny well as has indicated

26:37

that the circumstances surrounding packs

26:39

sudden departure as us attorney will

26:42

be part of a special purpose grand jury investigation

26:45

impacts spoke the fulton prosecutors

26:47

earlier this spring

26:49

no let go back to the january second phone

26:51

call some will say that trump should

26:53

have known better that dictating to states

26:55

what they should do with their own election results

26:57

was off limits

26:58

there's george washington university public

27:01

interest law professor john bands half

27:03

the test is whether trump had the

27:05

intense to interfere

27:08

with the election leave this particular

27:10

statutes arts conspiracy

27:13

to commit election fraud criminals

27:15

solicitation that i think is important

27:18

to commit election fraud and

27:20

intentional interference with past performance

27:23

of election duties so the question

27:25

is whether or not trump intended

27:27

to intimidate whether it was seen

27:29

as a threat and again i think the language

27:32

is so clear and specific and unambiguous

27:35

that you don't have to read into it

27:37

the amd have also cites a pattern of incidents

27:39

designed to overturn george's election

27:41

result trump's calls to

27:43

secretary of see investigator francis

27:45

watson and to gov brian camp

27:48

giuliani of hearing before the legislative committees

27:51

there's also sen lindsey graham's phone call

27:53

to bread rations for her

27:54

then there were i believe caused by

27:57

have one or two other people acting on trump's

27:59

be to various people down

28:01

in georgia so this shows a concerted

28:04

effort this wasn't a one time one thing

28:06

the trump happened to do one afternoon

28:08

and gave up on these shows several

28:11

different attempts both by trump's and

28:13

by people working with him to

28:15

try to affect the outcome of the like i

28:17

don't think it could be any clearer

28:19

the more different

28:21

pieces of evidence

28:23

prosecutor has pointing

28:25

in the same direction makes

28:27

it much more difficult for the descendants

28:30

of the not and speaking of intent

28:32

here's quinn keys fleming the former

28:34

georgia district attorney and coauthor

28:36

of the brookings institute report

28:38

you know again i think one of the things we need to

28:40

realize in the president the former president made

28:42

very likely

28:44

i try to raise a defense that

28:47

the fraud existed

28:48

that he had them the believe that

28:50

there was fraud and he was acting on that

28:52

belief and there's there's defenses

28:55

that

28:55

that also

28:56

the news for any of these crime the

28:59

the law is clear that the even if

29:02

he thought he was doing

29:04

the right thing you cannot

29:06

violate the laws to be able to achieve

29:08

that objective so

29:11

i'm in i'm quite sure the a will have

29:13

to case law that relate to that

29:15

she will no doubt if it gets to

29:17

an indictment of guess to any type of trial

29:20

he will have an instruction asked that the

29:22

judge given instruction in that regard to

29:24

any potential jury if one is in

29:26

pam

29:27

one of his coauthors on the brookings report

29:30

is norm eisen a former ambassador

29:32

who served as kill council to the house judiciary

29:34

committee during trump's for impeachment

29:36

trial he doesn't buy the defense

29:39

if it's used i have personally

29:41

although

29:42

fab

29:44

the face value bar trump's

29:46

professions that they actually believe this

29:49

i think the evidence points to

29:51

including you know with many

29:54

many people coming and telling

29:56

trump this is be as there was

29:59

no fraud you that when this election

30:01

the evidence points to this being the

30:03

latest as self serving pre verification

30:06

by trump as opposed to something he

30:08

actually believed and believed think a jury

30:10

will not accept

30:12

the will not accept his totally

30:14

unfounded claims that is if

30:17

the case ever gets before a jury we

30:19

have no idea if district attorney well

30:21

as will even seek an indictment if

30:23

she does the question of criminal

30:25

intent will be something for

30:28

the jury to decide there's don't

30:30

samuel

30:31

mens rea of not really a defense pre

30:33

trial at riot trial

30:35

the fact that the jury issue the

30:37

intend to commit the crime is not something you can

30:39

raise pre trial motion

30:42

kid is a summary judgment

30:44

in criminal case

30:47

you know if it alleges a crime you got to try

30:49

the in the meantime there are a number of defenses

30:52

trump and his allies can use to either

30:54

get the case dismissed altogether or

30:56

knock it off it's tracks

30:57

one is to do everything they can to stymie

31:00

the special purpose grand jury proceedings

31:03

here's , georgia district attorney danny

31:05

porter predicting what could happen

31:07

you know everything that whether

31:10

it's about da's office or whether

31:12

it's

31:13

and

31:15

got it does to get or

31:18

even in the civil cases he's been involved

31:20

with ovaries years you know

31:22

strategy these developers successfully

31:24

over the years you know

31:27

star know star not

31:29

deflect i would say distract

31:33

the much as possible and

31:35

what you do data up until you just

31:37

very realistic

31:39

even , he sat coming i

31:41

expect lawyers that defend

31:44

potential defendants to do all that

31:46

they can float prosecutor

31:48

they'd perry in a west georgia attorney

31:51

who chairs the republican travelers

31:53

caucus makes another point trump

31:55

has earned limited amounts

31:57

of money fulton county

31:59

doesn't night

32:01

connie willis is the stewardess

32:04

the taxpayers' money so

32:08

you know the trump legal team in

32:10

their defense in in this is perfectly

32:13

legal

32:14

you know they're going to do everything they can to make

32:16

sure that he had justice moves

32:18

at the speed of a tortoise bottom backwards

32:22

okay and how he turns you be seen a tortoise walk

32:24

backwards yeah that

32:27

that's that's what's gonna happen

32:29

they're going to use all their resources

32:31

to slow this down as much

32:33

as possible so that you

32:37

know nothing comes of it

32:40

probably

32:41

the war

32:42

you know their pass the twenty twenty four

32:44

i mean wheatley seen the same thing with

32:46

the the tax

32:48

the record

32:49

in new york

32:50

millions of women here about donald

32:53

trump's tax records since the day took

32:55

off

32:55

so how exactly do delays

32:57

help

32:57

trump well look what happened with

32:59

it with the whole tax thing in new

33:01

york city okay we had we have

33:03

a d a turnover in new york

33:06

city and suddenly the new da is

33:08

not as interested in

33:10

the trump investigation as investigation as former

33:12

ds you know one

33:15

thing with big metropolitan cities

33:18

and counties such as fulton county is

33:20

there's always going to be opposition

33:23

with in a political party so

33:25

funny willis funny willis to

33:27

have opposition in twenty

33:29

twenty four there's no doubt my mind

33:32

those

33:33

the cost of this investigation

33:35

become fodder for that political

33:40

stop speech for the opponent okay

33:42

let's look at how much the and the

33:45

donald trump investigation has cost

33:47

for county let's

33:49

look at how many people were murdered

33:52

in fulton county you know some

33:54

there's some say there's

33:56

there's some

33:57

play they are for trump and his team

34:00

ah but honestly i think them

34:03

the end all be all for them is just a

34:05

me i keep everything locked away in a suitcase

34:08

of

34:09

trump and others involved could also fight

34:11

subpoenas seeking documents or testimony

34:13

in a number of ways here's done samuel

34:15

again

34:16

yeah they call him mark meadows he can insist on

34:18

executive privilege

34:21

maybe successful maybe dot successfully

34:23

probably not some

34:25

other

34:26

reuters could claim attorney client privilege

34:28

giuliani would certainly claim attorney

34:31

client privilege

34:32

logan lots of privilege of the can be a certain

34:34

at the grand jury is our whole lot more you

34:36

can do is the grand jury for

34:38

a target to do with granted witnesses as witnesses

34:40

as jury

34:41

and raise all kinds of challenges

34:43

trump could also raise a first amendment

34:46

defense here's the cat county

34:48

jail p chairwoman mercy mccarthy

34:50

why can't the present a united states

34:52

have a call with

34:55

the secretary's day yeah

34:57

the question could be prosecuted

35:00

for such a thing for it simply asking

35:02

questions is quite frankly a violation

35:05

of

35:05

my feet

35:06

the attorney andrew fleischman says she

35:08

has a point

35:09

people all over the country

35:12

are listening their elected officials to do exactly

35:14

as for exactly the same reasons

35:16

they are

35:18

calling up their congressmen are calling

35:20

of their secretary of state same there's been frightening

35:22

to do something in their picketing in the demonstrating

35:24

and all that stuff is kind of classic protect the speech

35:26

because even if you're promoting terrible ideas

35:29

we typically protect those ideas even if your idea

35:32

that we should get rid of the constitution and

35:34

ah no free speech for anybody you

35:37

that's what you're saying you are protected and thing no

35:40

serious donald trump is arguably

35:43

petitioning of person government

35:45

to do the same thing that millions of other americans

35:47

are petitioning have to do and how do you

35:49

draw a distinction between those thanks for letting

35:51

the only way you could buy think he has knowledge of falsity

35:54

how do you prove that man knows who doesn't know a thing

35:57

this is break down from the atlanta

36:00

the constitution

36:03

the atlanta journal constitution presents

36:05

a special investigation thousands

36:07

of metro atlanta are trapped and predatory

36:10

housing

36:10

i hear gunshots his apartment

36:13

to apartment on all birds daves august

36:16

rates are com be known as way

36:18

well i'm just go gonna say that we've

36:20

got holes in the apartment two hundred

36:22

and fifty unsafe unhealthy

36:24

an unlivable apartments and you need

36:27

for dangerous dwellings my

36:29

alan jones and will be merry on him read

36:31

or year long investigation now and now and

36:33

c dot com slash dwellings

36:36

the atlanta journal constitution presents

36:38

the voices of king

36:40

i'm ryan hall

36:41

the agency's releasing these thirteen

36:44

historic conversations every thursday

36:47

to give you a glimpse inside the making

36:49

of history the available on spotify

36:51

apple or wherever you get

36:54

your podcasts

36:57

another line of defense could be raised if there's

36:59

an actual indictment it involves

37:01

a little known quirk in a law that

37:03

is is a current or former federal

37:06

official is indicted in a steep court

37:08

that person can ask for the keys to be moved

37:11

to settle

37:11

court so trump could ask

37:13

his case be removed from the superior

37:15

court and fulton county and doc at

37:17

it in the us district court house and

37:19

downtown atlanta just a few blocks away

37:22

and that would open up a whole can of worms

37:25

a if you're federal officer and he said you were

37:27

doing something under federal law than we

37:29

can remove that

37:31

and there's a here and happened to them like

37:33

thirty days with federal court decides what they

37:35

keep you put the standard is really low

37:37

here again as atlanta tourney

37:39

the replacement like basically

37:41

villains have some i lost this was the us supreme court

37:43

supposed to post office workers get like tricyclic

37:46

it's

37:47

they're that got rejected about like really

37:49

comfortable federal claim that

37:52

the predators going to claim that he was trying to enforce

37:54

some swear federal law and then the only

37:56

question is is a colorful

37:58

and what does he mean by color of

38:00

horrible me like plausible sit

38:02

barely possible puts a something but you can say

38:04

with a straight face a he could could you say with a straight

38:06

face he was trying to ensure election integrity

38:09

about his to federal officer and if

38:11

he happens to

38:13

anyone has to show the he'll win on it either

38:15

he just has to say that there is a defense that exists to get

38:17

federal move

38:19

questions as such a removal changes the

38:21

judges who would preside over the case

38:23

it could also produced delays with appeals

38:25

as to whether the case should remain in full

38:27

county defence attorney done samuel

38:29

says perhaps the most important

38:31

advantage for trump is he's indicted

38:34

and if his cases removed a federal

38:36

court would be the jury

38:38

pool also called the

38:40

benign

38:41

like we said fulton county is overwhelmingly

38:44

democratic president joe biden

38:46

caught on the seventy three percent of the vote there

38:48

in twenty twenty the moving the

38:50

case to the federal courts atlanta division

38:53

means that jurors will be some and from full ten

38:55

and nine other counties some

38:57

with republican strongholds

38:59

it's also entirely possible because

39:01

of immense publicity that jurists

39:03

would be some and from the entire northern

39:05

district of georgia not just the ten

39:08

counties in the atlanta division the

39:10

northern district is composed of forty

39:12

six counties calling years from

39:14

such a large area was recently done during

39:16

the federal hate crimes trial of the three

39:19

men convicted of the murder of ahmad

39:21

arbor yours were not someone

39:23

from just the seven county brunswick division

39:26

they were summoned from all forty three counties

39:28

that make up the southern district of georgia

39:30

this were to happen in trump's case it

39:33

could be a game changer

39:35

years don samuel again

39:37

you will probably have it district wide

39:39

veneer which means you

39:42

get rome georgia if you know what i mean

39:44

rome georgia that would be in the

39:46

heart of the fourteenth congressional district

39:49

that's represented by ultra conservative

39:51

marjorie taylor green

39:53

you would get gainesville you

39:56

would get dad just this side of athens

39:58

off

39:59

don't you , get

40:02

right down to actually the county just

40:05

north of that you know muskogee county

40:08

so

40:09

one and the cab and com

40:11

and good adderall included but so are

40:13

a lot of other counties where it's

40:16

not even close to being fifty fifty so

40:19

you're gonna get more republican some republican isis

40:21

the bottom line

40:22

remember all twelve jurors would

40:24

have to agree unanimously for

40:26

a charge to stick still then

40:29

you'll also think that getting a case remove

40:31

to federal court may not be a slam dunk

40:34

that's what

40:35

confusing to me about that removal

40:37

issue is the removal statues as you have

40:39

to be acting in the course of your official duties

40:42

it is conceivable

40:44

to me that the response would be

40:47

you know when you're out on

40:50

on a platform urging people to

40:52

vote for us that your presidential to reassure campaigning

40:55

role which different than them

40:59

you know your official act so

41:02

it would be fine

41:05

obviously there's all kinds of hurdles

41:08

he should have to overcome

41:10

prosecuting and x preference is

41:13

people wouldn't surprise me that ends up the united

41:15

states supreme court before it ever the

41:18

been a quarter

41:19

norm eisen one of the coauthors at the brookings

41:21

report

41:22

think there will be an indictment i

41:24

think the courts judges juries

41:27

when and air for it reaches that

41:29

face and of course settled we up to the da's

41:32

special grand jury of the special grand

41:34

jury makes a recommendation the regular grand

41:36

jury to accept that recommendation

41:38

and charge trump i think that's coming the

41:41

greater likelihood is that's coming

41:43

and then they'll have to decide these questions

41:46

i don't think they're gonna buy it

41:48

the a so i don't believe that

41:50

those defenses will

41:52

prevail in the end

41:54

not a client gunk right i mean you

41:56

gotta fight on your hands as way of and bred

41:58

in my view

41:59

at likely why the manhattan da

42:02

backed out

42:03

i don't think that the a willis

42:05

will be so weak

42:07

we mentioned in an earlier episode it's

42:09

been more than a years since the a well as launched

42:12

her investigation professor bam

42:14

das who filed the complaint against trump is

42:16

unconcerned with the slow pace of the prosecution

42:19

not worried that will a seems to be taking

42:22

so much time with this this

42:24

is obviously a tremendously

42:26

important case it is one where

42:28

there are no clear precedence

42:31

as precedence as haven't and ninety nine percent

42:33

of the cases that she prosecutes

42:36

you have that old the adage that

42:38

when you strike the king you had better

42:41

better be careful that that it

42:43

is effective so i think

42:46

any wise prosecutor going after

42:48

somebody like trump a former president

42:50

was tremendous amount of money was

42:52

a tremendous amount of cloud in the republican

42:54

party particularly is going to want

42:57

to take all the time they possibly

42:59

can to get her ducks

43:01

in a row to make sure that every little

43:03

bit of evidence comes out

43:06

next on breakdown

43:07

the special purpose grand jury has gone

43:10

into overdrive

43:11

the supreme court dad

43:13

there could be no questioning of a senator or

43:15

today except as it

43:17

proves relevant to investigating possible

43:19

third party crime possible third

43:22

part of price inserting any acts

43:24

in itself not criminal performed

43:26

by the senator or by his aides

43:28

in the course of their employment in preparation

43:31

for the subcommittee here

43:32

as always thank you so much for listening

43:35

we will continue to drop an episode