0:00

it's worth knowing what's

0:02

really going on is

0:05

the atlanta journal constitution?

0:10

i'm already sucks

0:12

and

0:12

i'm not driven atlanta has been known

0:14

as the black maca for so many years but that

0:16

means

0:16

something different to everybody by

0:23

subscribing to the atlanta journal name

0:25

newsletter unapologetically acl

0:28

it's all about the people events and

0:30

the entertainment happening in metro atlanta the

0:32

black people might want to know about

0:33

so i

0:45

previously on breakdown is

0:48

the shortest distance

0:49

when he point for restraint i was

0:51

a person and it was funny she's the

0:53

type that is in a country that you

0:56

look even the i'd argue some going to

0:58

be to and named work when

1:00

labour leader do that i've developed

1:02

a philosophy very early woman i'm fine

1:04

murder and , philosophy was i can

1:06

get a conviction on every case of a lot that a moment

1:09

ah well when i sat

1:11

down i just wanted to be able

1:14

to interview the a young me and although it is sometimes

1:16

although young woman or just want to be of them became mom

1:18

and play

1:19

the aid every clean and

1:21

a lot to do

1:43

the kids are corrupt harass

1:48

so let's get right down to

1:50

is there a criminal case against former president

1:52

donald trump and the others who tried to overturn

1:54

the two thousand twenty election results

1:57

in georgia

1:57

some say it's obvious that trump committed

1:59

crime when he called secretary of state

2:02

brad ross and speaker on january second

2:04

two thousand twenty one that he could

2:06

you hold pressured and threatened him to

2:08

alter the results of the election so he'd

2:10

wind georgia sixteen electoral votes

2:13

that the people of george you're angry

2:15

the people of the country rabies and is

2:17

nothing wrong with saying that you

2:19

know that

2:21

you recalculated

2:23

here's john fans have a professor

2:25

of public interest law at

2:26

george washington university looking

2:29

specifically at the

2:31

from situation

2:32

when i read and then heard

2:35

the actual tape recording of

2:37

the conversation it jumped

2:39

out at me as being about

2:41

as clear as specific

2:44

and on ambiguous evidence

2:46

of a crime

2:48

the others just don't feel they

2:50

say trump truly believed like countless

2:52

other americans that there was widespread

2:55

fraud in georgia then he was asking

2:57

reference burger simply to do his job

2:59

as george's top elections officials the

3:01

root out the fraud and count every

3:04

legally cast valley

3:06

if we narrowed down to

3:08

the particulars of what

3:10

i understand the understand to be looking

3:13

into which is

3:15

whether there's any criminal

3:17

or illegal conduct the

3:19

allied

3:20

the only the take it's really close

3:22

the be fair

3:24

that's randy evans a prominent georgia

3:26

attorney who served as trump's ambassador

3:28

to luxembourg

3:30

though was it a crime or a public

3:32

spirited phone call nearly

3:34

two dozen fulton county residents are

3:36

now laser focused on that question

3:39

the ongoing special purpose grand jury

3:41

is authorized to issue subpoenas for

3:43

evidence and testimony the grand

3:45

jurors can hear directly from witnesses

3:47

and ask them questions then

3:50

they'll make a recommendation as to whether trump

3:52

broke any laws

3:53

but all they can do is recommend the

3:55

woman leading the grand jurors district

3:58

attorney thani willis will make final

4:00

decision on whether to pursue an indictment

4:02

this is see the nine episode three

4:05

of breakdown from the atlanta journal

4:07

constitution

4:11

welcome back to break down the podcast

4:13

from the atlanta journal constitution investigating

4:16

georgians most important cases until

4:18

, and i'm tamara how him and okay

4:21

remember we only know just a fraction

4:24

of the information that's going to be obtained

4:26

by the grand jury is operating in

4:28

secret and it's subpoena power

4:30

is likely to grant jurors access

4:32

to information that even the best

4:34

reporters have been unable to unearth

4:36

but here's what we do now trump's

4:39

called harassing burger lies at the heart

4:41

of the investigation but it just

4:43

one of several phone calls the grand jury is looking

4:45

at

4:46

that includes the call for trump paired

4:48

with gov brian kim attorney

4:50

general chris car and elections

4:52

investigator francis watson in

4:54

the weeks following the november election

4:57

there's the phone conversation between wrath and burger

4:59

and south carolina us sen lindsey graham

5:02

a top trump ally that

5:04

one gram allegedly asked whether the secretary

5:06

of state had the power to reject legally

5:08

cast absentee ballots to help trump

5:10

narrow his deficit in georgia

5:12

meanwhile there's the testimony that trump's

5:15

personal lawyer rudy giuliani and

5:17

others presented to to committees in georgia

5:19

legislature

5:20

then there are the sixteen georgia republicans

5:22

who claim to be the states true presidential

5:25

electors

5:26

during a sham ceremony in the state capital

5:28

they signed official looking documents to be

5:30

sent to washington

5:32

all of that could very well be the starting point

5:34

for the special purpose grand jury well

5:36

as his casting a wide net for her investigation

5:39

and she says she's letting her prosecutors

5:42

follow the evidence for it takes well

5:45

as laid out a half dozen statutes that

5:47

may have been broken in a letter she sent to

5:49

the state's top elected officials last

5:51

year that was also how will

5:53

this announced to the world see is investigating

5:55

trump a recent analysis

5:57

from the nonpartisan brookings institution

6:00

in washington times then even

6:02

further

6:02

there are several charges

6:05

and criminal charges that could be implicated some

6:07

within the election code ah that

6:09

is specifically designed to protect

6:11

the integrity of elections and then

6:13

others in others more traditional

6:16

more traditional code that

6:18

and dress up the integrity

6:21

of public administer

6:22

ration overall

6:23

that's when keys fleming a

6:25

former district attorney in dekalb county

6:28

the also coauthored the brookings or poor

6:30

which analyzes all of the publicly available

6:33

information on what happened in georgia

6:35

after the twenty twenty election

6:37

the report published last fall

6:39

that voices investigation is well founded

6:42

and that trump faces substantial legal

6:44

risk in georgia it

6:47

stopped short of recommending criminal charges

6:50

it also says that if the allegations

6:52

lead to the investigation and prosecution

6:54

of those involved the man who once

6:56

held the nation's highest office shouldn't

6:58

get a free pass

7:00

one it a maine state laws that the brookings

7:02

report says might have been broken his

7:05

criminal solicitation to commit

7:07

election fraud let's start

7:09

with the wrapped and smoker phone call

7:11

i wanna do is as i use

7:14

wanna find

7:15

the

7:16

eleven thousand

7:18

seven hundred eighty

7:20

lots which is one more that we

7:22

have because we want

7:24

to say

7:26

the what did trump mean by the word

7:28

find

7:29

did he mean that rations burger needed to dig

7:31

deeper to uncover fraudulent votes

7:33

did he want rations burger to manufacture

7:36

eleven thousand seven hundred eighty new ballots

7:39

for true the computer into

7:41

real trouble if jurors think that that

7:43

means creating counterfeit ballots would vote

7:45

for trump or destroying ballots

7:47

cast for biden

7:48

that's a felony

7:50

there's morning

7:51

in terms of whether there was

7:53

evidence that in the

7:56

january second call

7:58

the former president was

7:59

line to get

8:02

the secretary of state to

8:04

either create

8:06

these eleven thousand seven hundred

8:08

and eighty boat or

8:10

possibly destroy eleven

8:12

thousand votes at properly

8:14

cast votes that would own then

8:18

shift the election

8:20

result

8:21

altering are destroying ballots is illegal

8:24

as is tampering with the voting machine and

8:27

it's worth noting that when it comes to solicitation

8:30

be acted that's being solicited doesn't

8:32

have to be committed in order for the charts

8:34

to stand

8:35

the law georgia law is

8:38

exceptionally favorable as we wrote

8:40

in our brookings report

8:43

on the possible prosecution

8:46

trump in fulton county

8:49

that nor my then talking about georgia

8:51

solicitation law the coauthor

8:54

of the brookings report there's also the

8:56

former us ambassador to the czech republic

8:59

and was kill council on the house judiciary

9:01

committee during the first impeachment proceedings

9:03

against trump he recently wrote

9:05

a book about restoring ethics in the federal government

9:07

post trump

9:09

you have a provision

9:11

express provision they don't exist everywhere

9:14

in the country criminal law for solicitation

9:16

of election fraud to me

9:19

that seems to be on all fours

9:21

with exactly what trump was

9:23

doing when doing when rapids burger

9:26

of course trump also said this

9:28

and you're going to find that they are and

9:30

which is totally illegal is it is

9:32

more illegal for you that it is for them

9:35

because you know what they did you not reporting

9:37

as necessary you know that's a criminal

9:40

that's a criminal offense and

9:42

you know you can't let that happen it's that's

9:44

a big risks to you and darius

9:47

your lawyers that's a big risk

9:49

there's professor john bands half again

9:52

these a public interest warrior who began fighting

9:54

the tobacco companies in the late nineteen sixties

9:57

and seventies he was credited with bringing

9:59

really public awareness to the watergate scandal

10:02

after he heard the january second phone call

10:05

bands they filed a formal complaint against

10:07

trump with the fulton da's office

10:10

i think it's important that trump's

10:12

language was very clear and

10:15

very specific because it's

10:18

suggests very strongly would persuade

10:20

a jury i think that he wasn't just joking

10:23

or talking generally if i

10:25

called up and said you know said wish

10:27

i'd gotten some more votes down there in

10:29

there peach state that's a kind

10:31

of a generalize statement the

10:33

another nobody can take that as a thread

10:35

or seriously spears very specific

10:37

issues i want to one thousand eight hundred votes

10:40

i want you to find them and he said it several

10:42

times and then also i don't have

10:44

the exact language in front of me but he said something

10:47

to the effects you know if you have knowledge

10:49

of wrongdoing and you don't act

10:51

on it that could be a crime this

10:54

is not coming from just anybody

10:57

it's are coming from reporters are coming

10:59

from us or a law professor

11:01

this is coming from the guy who heads

11:03

the justice department and who

11:05

can make the justice department do what he wants

11:07

to do so putting those two together

11:10

it's specific is clear is

11:12

on ambiguous it mentions was civic

11:15

number of votes and actually talks

11:17

about com possible criminal action

11:20

that sounded to me very much like a

11:22

crime

11:23

attorneys appeared before to committees

11:25

at the state capital in december twenty twenty

11:27

leading the team former

11:29

new york mayor rudy giuliani they

11:32

would raise many of the same claims trump

11:34

would make and the january second phone call

11:37

the testimony dragged on for hours it

11:39

was littered with conspiracy theories claims

11:42

of widespread fraud and rigged voting

11:44

machines assertions that were

11:46

debunked by state authorities when

11:49

you look at that rejection race

11:51

and when you look at what you saw on the video

11:53

which to be was a smoking gun powerful

11:56

smoking gun ios

11:59

that's the beauty is to show her how she would

12:02

have and i , to be a genius

12:04

to figure out that those votes for not legitimate

12:06

vote vote don't put legitimate

12:08

those under a table no wait

12:11

until you're throw the opposition the

12:13

and in the middle of the middle council we

12:16

would have to be fools the think this so

12:20

no , the to push so any further

12:22

but there's more that ample evidence

12:25

to conclude that this elections

12:27

the sam

12:28

giuliani also told lawmakers

12:30

they could take matters into their own him

12:33

there is no doubt of the rights

12:35

of the legislature to resume the power

12:38

at any time

12:39

this is giuliani addressing the senate judiciary

12:41

committee on december third the be

12:43

sure at any time would likely

12:46

not allow the letter says is to take his

12:49

, set of lot of of a letters by

12:51

when but there would have to be substantial

12:54

basis for

12:55

that's really what we're presenting to have a

12:57

, basis basis

13:00

to the point that sees votes

13:02

or to illegitimate to survive either

13:05

to illegitimacy certified or you

13:07

can look through them and certified and in

13:09

, way you feel is right but

13:11

this but power your obligation

13:15

and i know surprising i've

13:17

been before state legislators who

13:19

, realize it it replace

13:21

some do we really have this have and

13:24

then once reading the constitution for

13:26

the several papers secretly several yours

13:29

you view of the final arbiter

13:31

of who the electors should be and whether the electors

13:34

is fair and up and the other way to look

13:36

at it it's your responsibility

13:39

if a force and fraudulent

13:41

the hell

13:42

the humidity like a gun

13:44

there is clearly because you have right now

13:47

is false

13:48

shortly after the senate hearing which was

13:50

in person giuliani tested

13:52

positive for cover nineteen and had to be

13:54

hospitalized

13:56

concern many legislators because giuliani

13:58

didn't wear a mask remember this was

14:00

before the vaccine was readily available

14:03

they've later giuliani appeared before

14:05

state house committee this time it

14:07

was a virtual hearing as he did

14:09

before the senate committee giuliani

14:11

made claims that poll workers at state

14:13

farm arena in atlanta had secretly

14:15

counted suitcases full of illegal

14:17

ballots together

14:19

the

14:23

one says was doctored and

14:25

giuliani also spoke about the election

14:27

worker who received threats after her name

14:29

became public for now identifying

14:32

shamos and her mom because they recently

14:34

testified before the select committee investigating

14:36

the january sixth riot

14:39

earlier in the day ruby

14:41

frame it and say freeman laws and

14:43

one of the gel

14:44

quite obviously surreptitiously passing

14:47

around

14:48

un report as this their miles

14:50

of heroin or cocaine the

14:53

need it or says it's obvious to

14:55

anyone who's a criminal investigator or

14:57

prosecutors they are against surreptitious

14:59

illegal activity again and

15:02

that's a week ago

15:04

this to walked around georgia line

15:08

should have been issued event

15:10

the been questioned already

15:12

there are places are worth their homes

15:15

to be searched for evidence of balance

15:17

fellas that evidence of us before

15:19

it's the average voter fraud

15:22

and this is what bill barr had told trump, when

15:24

still a attorney general he said

15:26

this to the select committee review

15:28

a ,

15:34

of and including the interviews of the key witnesses

15:38

or the witnesses county allegations

15:41

were for county no merit guess

15:43

is he a merit under the table

15:46

of our legitimate bow vow or to

15:48

the morning the suitcase they have been pretty open

15:50

for eventually feeding into the machine

15:53

all the stuff about the water leak in this

15:55

there were some subterfuge and five

15:58

we felt there was some confusion a

16:02

subterfuge to create an opportunity

16:05

to see things and says accounts

16:07

and to , we didn't

16:09

see any evidence of of frost

16:13

in frost fulton county episode

16:16

this is breakdown from the atlanta

16:18

journal constitution

16:22

just hours after giuliani

16:24

testimony gave sterling the

16:26

secretary of state's elections official

16:29

appears that a press conference at the state

16:31

capital

16:33

you heard enough

16:34

again a former mayor giuliani

16:37

played , repeatedly

16:39

and repeatedly debunked state farm

16:41

video in the house committee today

16:47

given oxygen to this

16:49

continued this information is

16:51

leading to a continuing erosion

16:53

of people's beliefs and and are a lessons

16:56

and our processes

16:58

sterling response to many of giuliani

17:00

claims one being that about ten

17:02

thousand felons illegally cast ballots

17:05

the bar our our initial

17:08

investigations investigations salon voting is

17:10

it less than a hundred

17:11

giuliani also claims that tens

17:13

of thousands of people cast ballots

17:15

even though they weren't yet eighteen years old

17:17

or

17:18

they haven't registered to vote sterling

17:21

notes the law allows for seventeen

17:23

year old to register to vote if they are going

17:25

to turn eighteen before election day as

17:28

for claims that unregistered voters

17:30

cast valley

17:31

a physical way to cast a vote unless

17:33

you are in the voter registration system there's

17:36

you can i get about there's a so much to

17:47

giuliani could be at risk for violating

17:49

a law barring false statements and concealment

17:52

of facts in georgia such

17:54

georgia crime can be committed when a person knowingly

17:56

and willfully quote makes of

17:59

it

17:59

the shift or fraudulent statement or representation

18:02

we know that the da's office

18:04

is deeply interested in giuliani testimony

18:07

the special purpose grand jury subpoena the

18:09

transcript of the georgia senate election

18:12

hearing that giuliani appeared before it

18:14

, requested the testimony of at least

18:16

two democratic senators who were there slimming

18:19

thinks giuliani may be in trouble

18:22

the potentially there could be depending

18:25

on the evidence that they could be funny

18:27

georges for mr giuliani their

18:30

angela

18:31

ditto for the video giuliani played

18:33

that showed selectively edited snippets

18:35

a vote counting at atlanta state farm

18:37

arena

18:38

giuliani comments have ended the lives

18:40

of poll worker samos and her mom

18:42

fellow poll worker of ruby freeman appearing

18:45

before the select committee say moss

18:48

says she liked helping people exercise

18:50

their right to vote

18:52

i've always

18:53

and how my my grandmother how

18:55

important it is low and

18:57

how people who

19:00

for me a lot of people on older people

19:02

my family dinner

19:03

have that right

19:05

after giuliani singled her out must

19:07

said she was called into her boss's office

19:10

the answer to check her facebook messenger

19:12

app on your phone

19:14

and i went through that i time and

19:18

there's a lot of horrible things there

19:20

a lot of arrests recent

19:24

death upon me telling

19:28

, that i'm albion

19:30

sale with my mother am

19:33

same things like be glad

19:35

it's twenty glad it's that night since

19:37

winning

19:42

a lot of them were races a lot of them

19:44

was is hateful

19:46

there's representative adam schiff asking

19:49

my about giuliani is allegation

19:52

one of those we just watched mr giuliani

19:54

accuse you in your mother a passing some sort

19:56

of us be drive

19:58

the each other

19:59

what was your mom actually handed you

20:02

on that video

20:03

the ginger man

20:05

the pre recorded testimony freeman

20:07

said she now gets nervous when she's out in

20:09

public

20:10

she doesn't want people to know her name

20:13

i'm always concerned of who's around me

20:16

have lost my name's and i

20:18

love

20:18

my reputation as

20:20

, my sense of security

20:24

security because a group of people

20:26

starting with number forty five

20:30

and his allies rudy giuliani

20:33

decided to scapegoat me and

20:35

my door to say there

20:38

are lies about how the presidential

20:40

election was stolen

20:43

freeman says when january sixth

20:45

approached the f b i told her to move

20:47

away from her home the security precautions

20:50

she moved out for two weeks until

20:52

the inauguration

20:54

there's no way i feel safe

20:58

the you know how it feels to

21:00

have the president

21:02

of the united states target use

21:06

the president of the united states

21:08

it's supposed to represent every american

21:13

not to target one

21:15

but he did it means

21:18

lady ruby a small

21:20

business owners are mother

21:23

are plow a it is said to

21:25

, up the hill

21:27

fulton county run in the lead says

21:30

in the middle of the pandemic

21:32

ah says she quit the job she

21:34

loved as a poll worker and fulton county

21:37

the there is no

21:40

permanent alexa worker or

21:42

supervisor

21:44

that video that still there

21:47

did you end up later you're leaving your position as

21:49

well

21:50

is that allah

21:53

trump meadows and clean a mitchell

21:55

a conservative lawyer who help trump after

21:57

the elections can also be implicated

22:00

false statements for what they said

22:02

about widespread election fraud shredded

22:04

balance drop boxes being delivered

22:06

late dead voters and other

22:08

matters during the january second phone

22:10

call that turned out to be wildly inaccurate

22:13

another episode that could run afoul of the

22:15

law

22:16

the hush hush meeting of republicans and the state

22:18

capital on december fourteenth twenty twenty

22:21

the same day that democrats cast george's

22:23

sixteen electoral college votes for biden

22:26

down a flight of stairs behind a

22:28

heavy wooden door and conference room

22:30

to sixteen sixteen

22:32

republicans were anointed to be

22:34

a slate of shadow electors to

22:36

vote for trump

22:37

there's shop at capital and it's under

22:40

heavy heavy security

22:42

that's a d c political reporter greg blue

22:44

steel

22:45

that time there's been a sense

22:47

erected around the perimeter of the george to capital

22:50

there's worries about protests the democratic

22:52

delegates entered through a back room

22:55

a backdoor and they were shepherd

22:57

upstairs to the state senate under heavy

22:59

armed guard there was only a few people

23:01

out into as observers into

23:03

the state senate chambers greg is

23:05

rushing to cover the actual electoral

23:08

college vote when he stumbles upon this

23:10

meeting i really do not think there

23:12

was going to be a phony slates coffee

23:14

can to see what was happening and of

23:16

someone at the door said overs just having an

23:18

educational meeting i'll

23:20

never forget thousand okay and i knew

23:22

something was up but i also didn't have time a

23:25

demo because i had to be upstairs added

23:27

got those stairs and cover

23:30

the formal vote formal the democrat so i think i tweeted

23:32

something or how it's something fishy going on

23:35

and they're saying this education meaning but i've got to get

23:37

to grill news

23:39

greg learns from a colleague that yes say

23:41

collectors were meeting in that room he tried

23:43

to enter downstairs

23:44

i just was i was stunned

23:47

we had heard rumblings about that in other states

23:49

at the time i think we might have even seen a shallow slater

23:51

sony slate whatever you wanna call it but i

23:53

didn't think would happen in georgia

23:55

you didn't think that the ga ga appeal

23:57

actors would go for that great testing

23:59

the also being requested by the special

24:02

purpose grand jury which agency

24:04

leaders are unlikely to do

24:06

mary for major news organizations

24:08

to try and block one of their reporters from

24:10

testifying about information they obtain

24:13

while reporting the news that's

24:15

because they want to preserve their independence

24:17

the order was one of seven swing states

24:19

in which republicans went ahead and signed

24:21

fake electoral college paperwork

24:24

and send it on to the national archives even

24:26

though joe biden was declared the winner

24:29

in their states

24:30

one of those electors estate glp

24:32

chairman david schaefer this is

24:34

what he told greg and other reporters that day

24:45

although i have not been decided

24:48

or even heard we held this mean

24:50

to preserve his wife's if we not

24:52

open even on his

24:54

lawsuit would effectively be one of

24:57

, houses are meetings very sure

24:59

that if he prevails in losses

25:01

of the a lot of

25:04

, and a disaster every

25:06

available to

25:07

we know willis in or prosecutors are interested

25:09

in those fake electors at least to

25:11

have been interviewed by the da's office also

25:14

of interest is a recently unearthed

25:16

email that robert centers the

25:18

trump campaign official in georgia sent

25:20

to electors the day before they met he

25:23

told the republicans to keep their plans

25:26

shrouded in complete secrecy

25:28

not only that but to go as

25:31

far as to lie to the security guards

25:33

in the georgia capital the told them

25:35

to say they were visiting one of to trump friendly

25:37

state senators and nothing about

25:39

their shadow electoral college ceremony legal

25:42

experts tell us that email could be helpful

25:44

for prosecutors should they decide to press

25:46

charges against feel actors

25:48

after the email leap robert centers

25:51

the now just so happens to work for secretary

25:53

of state rapids burger he said

25:55

he was simply working under the direction of

25:58

safer and other trump camp in

26:00

official

26:00

i'm going back to shafers comments to

26:02

grad back in december twenty twenty don't

26:05

forget he also says that trump's lawyers

26:07

orchestrated the whole thing here's former

26:09

district attorney glenn she's fleming

26:11

the possible if the da

26:14

i believe she's already indicated she is looking

26:16

the in here

26:18

the allegations of a collector's it's

26:20

possible that anybody involved

26:22

in that particular ski

26:23

the could also be

26:26

investigated and potentially charged

26:29

hundred this criminal solicitation

26:32

eleni catcher

26:34

those are potential felonies with a maximum punishment

26:36

of three years behind bars

26:38

there's also a possible misdemeanor violation

26:41

which carries a fine of up to one thousand dollars

26:43

and up to a year of jail time

26:45

the electors could be at risk for forgery

26:48

charges same for rudy giuliani

26:50

the reportedly organized the fake elector

26:53

effort across the seven swing states

26:56

that's considered a second degree crime soliciting

26:58

the failure to perform an election duty

27:01

part of secretary of state bread rations burgers

27:03

job is to certify election results

27:05

in a way that's true full and maintains

27:07

the integrity of the process

27:09

until asking the secretary

27:12

of state to do anything the matter to

27:14

falsify the certification

27:17

or falsify the election in some way they wouldn't

27:19

be so listening him

27:21

to violate the are not

27:23

perform his public duty another

27:26

misdemeanor ah in

27:28

the election code would be false

27:30

statements and this and this you'd make

27:33

a false the statement under

27:35

oath or affirmation or solicit somebody

27:37

to make a false statement

27:39

under oath or

27:40

affirmation relating to something

27:42

being investigated or heard by

27:44

any public official

27:46

the a could also investigate the

27:48

unusual phone call trump placed

27:50

to francis watson who was then

27:52

the senior investigator for the secretary

27:54

of state's office watson was

27:57

performing an audit of more than fifteen

27:59

thousand it's and cobb county she

28:01

wanted to see if the signatures on the ballots

28:04

matched the signatures on the voter's

28:06

registration all the to

28:08

did match by the way

28:10

watson wasn't exactly a well known public

28:12

figure and certainly not someone

28:14

who'd be on the radar of your average georgia much

28:17

less the president of the united states

28:20

the phone call was recorded here's what trump

28:22

told watson

29:08

intentional interference with the performance

29:10

of election duties is a misdemeanor swimming

29:13

sites a point in that call when trump asks

29:15

watson to look at things outside

29:17

the purview of her audit and cobb county

29:20

like looking at mail in valid signatures

29:22

from two years before

29:24

or

29:25

for her to investigate fulton county bell

29:28

then again that was not for role

29:30

so that those

29:32

are the types of additional statement that district

29:34

attorney name use to

29:36

establish this

29:38

particular crime of interview your it with

29:41

election duties by directing her attention

29:43

elsewhere

29:44

the and or

29:45

that asking her to to follow

29:48

procedures that are outside the realm of

29:50

what she should do in her job

29:52

fleming says well as may need to take advantage

29:55

of the special purpose grand jury subpoena

29:57

power to try and assemble enough evidence

29:59

to support interference charge

30:01

this is breakdown from the atlanta

30:04

journal constitution

30:08

there's also trump's phone

30:10

conversation with georgia attorney general

30:12

chris car on december eight two

30:14

thousand greg , steam

30:16

writes about the incident in his book

30:19

flipped flipped had just

30:21

returned home with a rotisserie chicken

30:23

from public's and settled in from the night

30:25

and was looking to get into the holiday spirit

30:28

and he was him and his family

30:30

were trying to watch the movie else

30:31

then sen david perdue calls and

30:34

health car that trump was angry at him

30:36

the caught wind is chris car

30:38

was against the effort by

30:40

texas to overturn the state

30:42

elections and georgia and other states

30:45

you're talking about a lawsuit filed in the

30:47

us supreme court car had

30:49

called it constitutionally legally

30:51

and factually wrong and like

30:54

all the others fall by trump and his allies

30:56

it was rejected

30:57

throughout produce urging car calls

30:59

the white house he's put on hold for ninety

31:01

minutes before the president gets on the line

31:04

and

31:05

basically to summarize or how version least

31:07

what i was how i translated

31:09

the conversation i'm talking to multiple

31:11

sources with direct knowledge was that

31:14

the president wanted to make sure

31:16

that chris car wasn't trying to rally

31:18

opposition he had heard

31:20

that he was trying to get other the chris cars trying to

31:22

get other attorneys general to come out

31:24

against his texas long sought supreme

31:27

court challenge and the attorney general

31:29

increase largest were saying hey you know this is

31:31

how i feel but i'm not trying to

31:33

overstep my skis here i'm i'm not

31:36

trying to go rally other other republican

31:38

officials against i'm just letting them know where

31:40

we stand with as my office

31:42

and the state of georgia

31:43

our was scheduled to testify before the special

31:46

grand jury in late june

31:48

another possible crime that could be on the table

31:50

is conspiracy to commit

31:52

election fraud

31:53

that could implicate some of trump's top

31:56

allies including giuliani us

31:58

sen lindsey graham

31:59

trump's white house chief of staff mark meadows

32:02

the move forward with discharged prosecutors

32:05

would need to assemble enough evidence to convince

32:07

a jury that there was an agreement between

32:10

trump and people like giuliani meadows

32:12

and even the republican electors nut

32:15

they were working towards one

32:16

no wonder georgia law in

32:18

agreement doesn't necessarily mean a

32:20

pact that was sealed with a handshake

32:22

or signed contract the participants

32:25

don't even necessarily need to know each other

32:28

the the law says that the stay only

32:30

need to prove that two or

32:32

more persons tacitly came

32:35

to a mutual understanding

32:37

to accomplish or pursue

32:40

a criminal objective

32:42

that swimming again prosecutors

32:44

must prove there was enough evidence

32:46

of a connection and that the individuals

32:49

are acting intent that's

32:51

where subpoenas could be helpful to unearth

32:53

documents and witness testimony

32:55

there's also the racketeer influenced

32:57

and corrupt organizations act known

33:00

as retail

33:01

the was herself brought it up in her letter to state

33:03

officials announcing her investigation

33:06

she brought it up now and again in media interviews

33:09

congress passed the law in nineteen seventy

33:11

in order to put away mafia bosses the

33:14

veto corley and so the world who orchestrated

33:16

crimes for decades but in skate conviction

33:19

georgia past it's own version of ally nineteen

33:22

eighty one and many say george's rico was

33:24

more powerful than the federal version

33:27

here it's been used successfully to target

33:29

street gangs and assisted suicide

33:31

network metro atlanta sheriff

33:33

who assassinated his political rival and

33:37

as we told you about last episode atlanta

33:39

school teachers the blockbuster

33:41

case that brought funny willis into the spotlight

33:44

there's attorney bob or even explaining how

33:46

it works he defended a principal

33:49

and the atlanta tests eating trial and

33:51

of course he defended travis make

33:53

michael in breakdown season eight

33:55

the ahmad arberry case so

33:58

the rico along georgia likely

33:59

most states patterned after the federal rico

34:02

law and centrally and in the sense

34:04

that think of an association of of

34:06

people either , through an

34:08

organization or just without knowing the say

34:11

she just associating with each other other

34:13

classic example of courses the the mob

34:16

family which is an association of people

34:18

working people one head

34:20

of one family is

34:22

but it can be at a corporation that

34:24

can be just that working together but

34:27

there's usually ah that

34:29

a there's to the organization

34:32

multiple people someone's in charge

34:34

and there's underlings doing various criminal

34:36

acts to further underlings

34:39

of the organization

34:41

in order to prove a rico case a

34:43

prosecutor has to show a pattern of

34:45

racketeering activity i'm

34:47

all that might seem complicated in some

34:49

cases it's not that difficult at

34:52

all

34:53

that's because the state has to convince a

34:55

jury that at least two crimes were

34:57

committed to further the criminal interests

34:59

of the organization these

35:01

are called predicate acts

35:04

then you just need to them

35:06

interestingly solicitation

35:08

coercion and intimidation of another person

35:10

to commit a crime can be considered

35:12

a predicate act for racketeering charge

35:15

that the reason and so powerful is

35:18

because using the rico law

35:20

the posture can bring in a

35:22

, of people who may not know

35:24

each other may not have ever interacted

35:26

with each other but if they're all

35:29

working for the same criminal

35:31

goal to in rich

35:33

or in power and organization or

35:35

and group of for a particular individuals that

35:38

they can all be considered to be acting

35:40

together as part of this enterprise

35:43

the enterprise would be the association of individuals

35:45

or the committee to reelect the president or

35:48

or some other organization so

35:50

his will is going to consider rico when it comes

35:52

to her investigation of the two thousand and

35:54

twenty elections yeah spob

35:56

ruben what he thinks

35:58

may i i think it's a stretch

35:59

but what if she did so there's the

36:02

enterprise will be this association of

36:04

individuals i don't think there's a real organization

36:06

except unless are all working for a

36:09

political committee the goal

36:11

would be to empower donald trump right

36:13

or wrongfully by committing

36:15

criminal acts and by

36:17

using rico she can bring in each of the

36:19

individual acts which may have nothing

36:22

to do with the other so giuliani apps

36:24

in georgia may have nothing to do with what was happening

36:26

in the us attorney's office they may not have

36:28

even known each other we're we're

36:31

working towards the same goals but

36:33

under rico she can bring

36:35

all of that in assuming the criminal

36:37

acts here's fleming again

36:39

you know i think influencing witnesses

36:42

gonna be one of the strongest cases that he has

36:45

i think

36:47

he includes in the rico

36:49

the forgery charges for the electors

36:51

that would establish your to

36:54

i think false statements

36:57

the

36:58

that gives her three

37:01

the i think rico charge

37:04

the real possibility

37:06

brookings legal experts say at least

37:08

for possible crimes that could count

37:10

as predicate acts for rico

37:12

they include false statements and

37:14

writings the liquidation a false

37:16

statements in writings the liquidation

37:19

a false swearing and influencing

37:21

witnesses

37:22

there's also possibly the crime a solicitation

37:25

of computer trespassing since

37:27

we're talking about those that were tabulated and

37:29

often cast on computer systems

37:32

on top of that ruben says

37:34

the state can charge individuals

37:36

with not only rico conspiring

37:39

to commit rico

37:40

there was about as broad a law

37:43

as you can possibly get a loud

37:45

the prosecutor bring in all sorts of evidence

37:48

from various individuals and in

37:50

the criminal acts that they're committing the over

37:52

acts towards the conspiracies

37:54

a bit of best the gifts that the

37:57

prosecution a huge bucket they

38:00

can use to fill with all sorts of stuff that

38:02

are seemingly unrelated that

38:04

if they can tie it all up as related

38:06

towards furthering the goal of this

38:09

association this criminal or corrupt

38:11

association they can bring

38:13

it as recollection

38:15

so will it has some decisions to

38:17

make the first of course is whether

38:19

to seek an indictment the second

38:22

is whether to pursue a more targeted said a

38:24

to riches focus on things like

38:26

solicitation to commit election fraud or

38:28

influencing witnesses that's

38:31

convictions usually results in fines or

38:33

as

38:33

interest short jail sentences

38:36

or does she opt for a more complicated

38:38

but squash your strategy that includes rico

38:42

the only way to cheering through the punishment about

38:44

to twenty years

38:44

prevent the da could

38:47

also conceivably bar trump's name

38:49

from ever appearing on appearing georgia ballot

38:51

again

38:52

never mind the political glory

38:54

that would come from being the first district

38:56

attorney to obtain an indictment against

38:59

a former us president a rico

39:01

charge would enable willis to tell a

39:03

broader story about what happened in georgia

39:05

and other swing states after the two

39:07

thousand and twenty elections

39:09

you're swimming

39:11

the again there is just

39:13

this the opportunity

39:15

to to had a broad umbrella

39:18

in what may look

39:20

like

39:21

one offs when you

39:23

them together with the timeline

39:25

the da a will be able to draw

39:28

very if connection then

39:30

again the these patterns of activity

39:32

have to be done in a way that

39:34

they are advancing were

39:36

trying to maintain either directly

39:38

or indirectly

39:40

the enterprise

39:41

and so in georgia there has

39:43

been case law that retaining elected

39:46

office is considered

39:48

enterprise edition i'm enough

39:49

the saddled with that

39:51

it would be huge news if well as deploys

39:53

rico against trump and his allies

39:56

she recently use that very law to pursue

39:58

immensely popular rapper young the fog

40:00

and twenty seven others allegedly connected

40:03

to the street gang young slime life

40:05

and willis appears to be well positioned

40:07

to do so if she wants to go that route

40:09

for the trump pro remember she

40:12

has atlanta rico expert john floyd

40:14

on her staff rubin says

40:16

this could be telling

40:17

the i think that's a strong signal that they're

40:20

seriously looking at rico in in

40:22

this investigation john of courses kind

40:24

of the godfather no pun intended

40:26

of the ricoh statute and

40:29

use of it in georgia he's written a well

40:31

used and popular books about

40:34

rico in all the states but including

40:36

in georgia and so he's nobody knows rico

40:38

better than john floor

40:39

speaking of rico godfathers rudy

40:42

giuliani pioneered the use of racketeering

40:44

charges when he was us attorney in new york

40:46

the top federal prosecutor

40:48

in manhattan you brought rico indictments

40:51

against the heads of new york's five families

40:53

ultimately securing the conditions of eight mobsters

40:57

now more than thirty years later another

40:59

case may bring giuliani enrico together

41:01

again

41:02

that in a much different way

41:05

all of these potential state charges we just

41:07

laid out though come with a giant

41:09

speed buff

41:11

the next on breakdown

41:13

the convict any one of violating any

41:15

of these state laws prosecutors must

41:18

convince a jury that the participants

41:20

knew that they were pushing for something

41:22

illegal

41:23

that could be the prosecution's

41:26

achilles heel

41:27

what

41:30

it means that a he certainly

41:32

says the sleep is certainly seems to believe them

41:35

there's a book that came out last week people

41:37

china was shooting us with hurricane gun

41:40

there's magic marker on a map

41:43

for he fatherhood you can reach at album

41:45

the drawdown because you so sure that was

41:47

true so you

41:49

want me to believe beyond a reasonable doubt the donald

41:51

trump couldn't believe the crazy thing

41:53

i've got down as always

41:56

thank you so much for listening we will continue

41:58

to drop in episode every week over

42:00

the next few weeks then we'll come back

42:02

from time to time whenever major news

42:04

breaks in this story and i think

42:06

you can count on that happening

42:08

you can follow our daily coverage on our

42:10

website aj see you dot com

42:13

and if you really want to support local journalism

42:15

particularly our journalism please

42:18

subscribe to the aj

42:19

the be safe and take care until

42:22

next time i'm bill ranking and

42:24

i'm tomorrow hallerman this is

42:26

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42:37

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