0:00

it's worth knowing what's

0:02

really going on is

0:05

the atlanta journal constitution?

0:10

previously

0:12

on breakdown, i

0:13

i think it would safe to that if

0:16

people have information,

0:18

in particular about georgia and interference

0:20

in the georgia elections and

0:23

war in the white house, that will

0:25

not borrow someone to talk to them and

0:27

when you add

0:28

the mix other significant statistical

0:30

anomalies and sworn affidavits a video

0:32

evidence of outright election fraud

0:35

i don't think it's just your authority to do that quite

0:37

frankly i think you have a duty to do that

0:39

to protect the integrity of

0:41

the election era george and i mean scary

0:44

to cast never klaus

0:48

committing meaning i was like this is the most ridiculous

0:50

thing i've ever heard right and

0:52

really are my where i'm sitting now

0:54

i believed that the entire series

0:57

not only was done

0:59

, gonna push out misinformation kushner

1:01

only and and newsmax for last strike again

1:04

and nobody really could push back except

1:06

for a line and i was just like like

1:08

no idea who these people

1:10

are are as to find or

1:12

whatever i think he was done for

1:14

misinformation

1:15

welcome back to see the nine of break

1:18

down the podcast from the atlanta journal

1:20

constitution the takes you inside

1:22

george's most important cases i'm

1:24

ha see legal affairs reporter fill

1:26

ranking

1:27

i'm senior reporter to marshal or men

1:29

we have never seen a case like this in

1:31

georgia before but this is not

1:33

the first time a member of the executive branch

1:36

has been in legal trouble so

1:38

episode six will be in large part about

1:40

history will look at how more

1:42

than two hundred years of case law will

1:44

come into play into this proceeding

1:46

what will explain why the lead

1:48

prosecutor is finding herself on the receiving

1:51

end of some criticism it's a monumental

1:53

wonder or ,

1:56

the federal grand jury because

1:58

there was already i doing

2:01

that it was allegedly motivates this

2:03

this is breakdown the trump

2:05

grand jury from the atlanta journal constitution

2:13

people say the metaverse will only

2:15

be virtual but one day

2:17

in the metaverse doctors will practice

2:19

high risk surgery hundreds of times

2:21

before they operate on real pain

2:23

i'm noodles will be transported

2:26

to ancient

2:26

rome and saturn's rings improving

2:29

health outcomes learning and more

2:31

the metaverse maybe virtual but the impact

2:34

will be real learn more about

2:36

what but it is building for the metaverse at

2:38

metaverse dot com slash metaverse

2:40

impact

2:42

i'm early signs and i'm niger of own

2:44

atlanta has been known as the black mecca for so many

2:47

years but that means something different to everybody

2:49

it means everything to me every day i wake

2:52

up i learn something new well you all can learn

2:54

something new by subscribing to the atlanta journal

2:56

constitution new newsletter called unapologetically

2:59

atm it's all about the people

3:01

the events and the entertainment happening in metro

3:03

atlanta that black people might want to know about

3:05

social scribe today at www

3:08

dot e j c dot com slash

3:11

unapologetically a t

3:13

l

3:17

no matter how this case plays out

3:19

it will certainly be one for the history books

3:21

know president or former president has ever

3:23

been indicted there's not much of a playbook

3:26

for fulton county district attorney funny well

3:28

as to follow

3:29

the vice presidents have been formally

3:31

charged with a crime the first

3:34

one guy spent the last the last

3:36

way

3:36

that would be aaron burr

3:38

one of the nation's founding fathers and the man

3:40

who killed alexander hamilton in a dual

3:43

he was vice president during thomas jefferson's

3:46

first term in office during

3:48

jefferson second term the president

3:50

learns that bird is trying to wage

3:52

and armed rebellion and get several

3:54

states to leave the union

3:56

yeah person has been arrested and brought

3:58

to trial enrichment

4:00

the guiding is john marshall the nation's

4:03

fourth chief justice and one of the most influential

4:05

jurists in us history the

4:08

earth request marshall approves the

4:10

subpoena to be served on jefferson for

4:12

some of his papers

4:14

that very decision would be cited by

4:16

chief justice john roberts and trump

4:18

vs mans that's the case

4:20

where the us supreme court denied then president

4:23

donald trump's request to put

4:25

a halt to the manhattan district attorney's

4:27

efforts to obtain records from the president's

4:30

accountants

4:31

bird found not guilty at a trail

4:33

and eighteen and seven dad

4:35

is a president who was actually arrested

4:38

what follows is an account by the washington

4:40

post which confirmed what transpired

4:43

in transpired interview with the city's former police

4:45

chief

4:46

it happens in eighteen seventy two

4:48

at the intersection of thirteenth and him

4:50

streets just a few blocks from the white

4:52

house president ulysses

4:54

as grant and accomplished horseman

4:56

and driver love the given his horse

4:59

drawn carriage and race through the city

5:01

there had been complaints about speeding carriages

5:04

especially after another and trials were been

5:06

over and badly injured police

5:08

officer william last a black

5:10

man who fought in the civil war is

5:12

assigned to investigate

5:14

at one point west looks up and sees

5:17

the carriage barreling toward him sir

5:19

enough is president grant when

5:21

west raises his hand grant brings

5:24

the carriage to a halt after

5:26

west tells grant he is setting a bad

5:28

example the president apologizes

5:30

and says it won't happen again

5:32

the next night west see his grand to racing

5:35

through the city and commands him system well

5:38

in a nineteen eight interview with the washington's

5:41

to her explains what happened next

5:44

green trying to weasel his way

5:46

out is it by saying he didn't know he'd been

5:48

going so fast

5:50

let's recall thing quote i'm

5:52

, sorry mister president the have to do

5:54

it for you or the chief of the nation and

5:56

i am nothing but a policeman but

5:59

it it's my duty there and i will have

6:01

to place you under arrest

6:03

when he takes grant to the police station

6:05

where the president has said twenty dollar bond

6:08

but when his case with called for trial the next day

6:11

grant is nowhere to be found

6:13

okay a

6:15

speeding ticket doesn't exactly compare with

6:17

a grand jury investigation impossible

6:19

felony charges but we did have

6:21

did have president being arrested that's

6:23

quite a story

6:24

far more on point is the watergate

6:26

scandal that put richard nixon on the precipice

6:29

of being indicted it all

6:31

starts with size men been arrested for

6:33

breaking into the democratic national committee

6:35

headquarters at the watergate hotel

6:38

on june seventeenth nineteen seventy

6:40

two

6:40

we were dealing with matter said

6:42

had no precedent in and history

6:45

we had no law books to go to we

6:48

couldn't find anything that gave us and guiding

6:51

light or the serve as a beacon you know to

6:54

where we know what do any

6:56

the could go to the history books was not

6:58

only that i didn't have any anything

7:00

of from a legal standpoint i had nothing historically

7:02

to go historically

7:03

leandro or ski in an interview

7:06

years after he served as the special

7:08

prosecutor investigating the nixon

7:10

white house fulton county district

7:12

attorney funny willis may be feeling

7:15

the same way right now

7:16

to worst he oversaw a federal

7:18

grand jury investigation that led

7:20

to the convictions of nixon's chief of staff

7:23

bob halderman domestic

7:25

advisor john ehrlichman an attorney

7:27

general john mitchell and

7:29

you weren't good team with primed to go

7:31

for the big fish

7:33

they certainly were and failing and he

7:35

was almost unanimous that nixon should

7:37

be indicted for the cover up on

7:40

we're a pretty strong case for

7:42

his cheating on his income taxes

7:45

new york lawyer nick ackerman

7:47

he worked for jaworski in his predecessor

7:50

archibald cox in the special prosecutor's

7:52

office in his book the

7:54

right in the power the war

7:56

ski road i had no doubt

7:58

the grand jury one

7:59

to indict nixon so it was

8:02

a pretty decent case

8:04

them by ear he was named as

8:06

an unindicted coconspirators in the

8:08

cover up and the

8:10

evidence there was really overwhelming

8:12

was really based on tape record

8:15

there's well as in his testimony obviously

8:17

but what was the clincher there is also

8:19

the clincher as to why he bombed of resigning

8:22

are was because of the tape recordings tape

8:24

recordings in particular where he tried

8:26

to get his age to contact

8:28

the cia return he

8:31

asked them to contact the of be either stop

8:33

the investigation into the burger

8:35

of course ackerman is referring to

8:38

the white house kids from the system

8:40

nixon had installed and which recorded

8:42

conversations inside the oval office

8:45

to worth his office prevailed in prevailed

8:47

unanimous decision by the us supreme

8:49

court forcing nixon to turn them over

8:52

they are absolutely devastating

8:54

your worse he wrote that the grand jury wanted

8:56

nixon to come in and testify but

8:59

it never happens

9:00

facing certain impeachment

9:02

nixon resigned on august ninth

9:05

nineteen seventy four i

9:07

have never been a quitter the

9:10

leave office before my term is completed

9:13

his of harm to every instinct and

9:15

my body

9:18

president i must

9:20

put the interests of america

9:22

first

9:24

the airport

9:26

i shall resign the presidency effective

9:28

at noon tomorrow vice

9:31

president for will

9:33

, sworn in as president president

9:35

that hour and this office

9:38

here's forward after being sworn being my

9:40

fellow americans are

9:43

, national nightmare

9:46

is over over constitution

9:49

our are great republic

9:51

is a government of laws and not a man

9:54

here's the people rule

9:57

ackerman says jaworski didn't obtain

9:59

and reitman against next and while he was president

10:02

because he wanted to see what played out in congress

10:04

first

10:05

the named him as an unindicted coconspirators

10:08

the time and in indict him because we're

10:10

right in the midst of the impeachment proceedings

10:13

and jaworski believe that the have

10:15

a decent proceeding should go first

10:17

now that nixon was out of office

10:19

there's nothing stopping the special prosecutor's

10:22

office from asking the grand jury to

10:24

indict him that on september eight

10:26

nineteen seventy four one month

10:28

after nixon resigned president

10:30

gerald, ford addresses, the nation i

10:33

i do believe with

10:35

all my heart and mind

10:37

and spirit that i

10:39

not as president but

10:42

as a humble servant of god, well

10:46

received justice without mercy

10:49

the by failed to show

10:51

mercy finally

10:54

i feel at richard nixon and his loved

10:56

ones have suffered enough

11:00

and will continue to suffer no

11:02

matter what i do no

11:05

matter what we as

11:08

a greater good nation can do

11:10

together to make

11:12

his goal of peace com

11:14

true

11:18

now therefore i gerald

11:20

are ford president

11:23

of states pursuant

11:27

to the pardon power conferred

11:29

upon me by article 2

11:32

two two of the of

11:36

the granted and by

11:38

these presence to grant these

11:41

, free an absolute

11:43

pardon on to richard nixon for

11:47

all offenses against the united

11:49

states which he richard

11:51

, nixon ,

11:54

or may have committed are

11:57

taken part in during the period

11:59

from july twenty nineteen

12:03

, nine nine

12:05

aug nine nineteen

12:07

seventy four

12:09

the worst he wrote in his book the right in the power

12:12

that he had his staff research the issue

12:14

to determine if they could challenge the

12:16

pardons and still bring an indictment the

12:19

in the end he decided not

12:21

to pursue criminal charges

12:23

some people feel that that might have

12:26

cost for the your life

12:28

and ninety seven

12:29

david greenberg as a professor

12:31

of history and media

12:32

these at rutgers so great

12:34

was the anger over sir

12:36

spare and it's and

12:38

possible

12:39

the trial and conviction

12:43

and there could be all historians

12:45

markings are divided over

12:47

that flashy but certainly that's

12:49

the one time when it seems

12:52

the ball that ah

12:54

of warm friendly a recent president

12:56

outwards he he justice

12:59

for crimes you know

13:01

greenberg's as ford was in a tough spot

13:04

the i think dark hole and i really

13:06

i do see it from both sides

13:10

or will be the top position

13:13

the his initial

13:16

remarks on taking office and seeing

13:18

our long national nightmare is over

13:20

i think really did strike the right tone

13:23

he even

13:25

in justification for the pardon

13:27

few weeks later one

13:30

can see some merit in his position

13:32

that

13:34

the country had long

13:36

that more time focused

13:38

on the focus on war

13:40

it was going to further i

13:43

even eat at the time featured country

13:45

apart

13:47

on the ionian it was

13:49

intervene of justice

13:51

the and it yeah

13:53

why

13:55

them mitigate or claim

13:57

that know and about the line if that was

13:59

the

13:59

lack of water

14:02

well it being undermined

14:04

by sparing nixon

14:06

the reckoning justice

14:08

and i think know your you

14:11

differently

14:12

the time it was unpopular decision

14:15

clear finkel sign the founder of the

14:17

university of pennsylvania center for

14:19

ethics and the rule of law has strong

14:21

feelings about for it's decision depart

14:24

nixon

14:25

i think set a precedent

14:27

for did the country a great disservice

14:29

by pardoning nixon that's

14:31

an act that's been much criticized but

14:34

the long-term effects to that have never really

14:36

been thought through

14:39

because what it suggested is

14:41

that we're never going to be able to

14:43

hold even a former president's

14:46

response

14:46

for for his crime

14:48

that would have been a moment

14:50

for the country to seize in

14:52

terms of presidential accountability

14:55

i and and course the

14:57

country

14:57

it was deprived of seeing nixon behind

15:00

bars

15:01

in two thousand and one ford received

15:03

the jfk profiles in courage award for

15:05

his burden greenberg's as

15:07

it was an acknowledgement that the decision while

15:10

unpopular at the time may

15:12

have been the right one as for

15:14

what's happening now

15:16

i think now that trump actually that

15:18

is if we rely

15:20

the people are now

15:22

swinging back to the position while

15:24

nixon probably should have seen it

15:26

in court

15:27

greenberg a presidential historian

15:29

sees a lot of parallels between nixon

15:31

and trump

15:32

the about man has this

15:35

the trump gates is in fact

15:37

will to power

15:39

and both

15:40

bound it very hard to

15:43

acknowledge they

15:45

were all that they may have lost

15:48

the people forget the night hits

15:50

the

15:51

when nixon

15:53

law

15:54

the president latin john

15:56

kennedy he and his men challenge

15:59

the election

16:00

he he

16:03

and i is the kind

16:05

of half hearted concession on last

16:07

night

16:08

and i look at the board here while

16:11

, there are still some results

16:13

still to come in if

16:15

the present friends and send use as

16:18

if mr kennedy center saturday will

16:20

be the next president

16:22

the united states

16:26

rabbi

16:35

hi i'm

16:38

diana and i want to say

16:40

that one of the

16:44

i want to say that one of the great

16:47

features one america is

16:50

that there we have political crimes

16:52

as that they are very hard

16:54

fought as as when they hard fought and

16:56

won the decision is made we

16:58

unite behind the man was elected

17:01

of course made no such concession

17:04

half hearted or otherwise

17:06

this is abroad

17:08

the american public this

17:10

is an embarrassment to our country

17:14

we were getting ready

17:15

the win this election

17:16

friendly we did when

17:18

the salon others

17:22

that similarity to the refusal

17:24

be unwilling there

17:26

you acknowledge defeat part with

17:28

power

17:29

the

17:30

one didn't have to kind

17:32

of them

17:34

the addictive street

17:36

ah

17:38

that like the values

17:40

that really hard to write about men

17:43

other of i'm getting

17:45

do you want a difference is i

17:47

the point out

17:49

in when we heard he

17:51

quit white house recordings

17:54

the people hurt him

17:56

talking i did use during first

17:58

thing

17:59

ah because it was that odds with

18:02

very

18:03

the sobered up right public

18:05

persona that friday project

18:08

the tribe that private public distinction

18:10

isn't there would promptly treat out

18:13

the the law and vulgar and

18:15

what did he would say and private

18:17

and so us

18:19

let me be the next machine was but there

18:21

was some sense of shame that captain

18:23

pounds you see uprising public

18:26

with promptly really is shameless you really

18:29

in mind

18:31

yeah he that someone was course

18:34

in auger an angry and ask the

18:36

the anything he kind of wallowed in that

18:38

person

18:39

we need to point out why gerald ford was in

18:41

a position to succeed nixon and

18:44

then pardon him as the watergate

18:46

scandal was being investigated so

18:48

too was spiro agnew

18:50

before becoming nixon vice president agni

18:53

served as baltimore county executive and

18:55

the governor of maryland

18:57

federal authorities found agnew had

18:59

been taking kickbacks from contractors

19:01

while he served in office in maryland

19:04

the payoffs continued even after

19:06

agnew became vice president on

19:08

october tenth nineteen seventy three

19:10

agnew pleaded no contest to

19:12

a single count of tax evasion a

19:15

felony and was fined ten

19:17

thousand dollars and given three years on probation

19:20

he resigned from office that same day

19:22

and nixon replaces him with house

19:25

minority leader gerald ford

19:28

this is break down from the atlanta

19:30

journal constitution

19:32

the order is the nation's political battle

19:34

around we gotta find like we've never

19:36

thought the for democracy only works

19:39

when we will see inform

19:41

during a historic election with

19:42

medically georgia from the atlanta juri

19:44

the constitution i don't think we've ever covered

19:47

election point like this one

19:48

political insiders greg blue seen in

19:50

patricia murphy has sources experience

19:53

and analysis no one else has

19:55

hit a really good feel on the ground

19:57

for white house has endured a nice

20:00

it feels like politically georgia

20:02

listen at a d c dot com slash politics

20:04

or wherever you get your podcasts the

20:08

facts matter now more than ever

20:10

get unlimited digital access to

20:13

the atlanta journal constitution so you

20:15

know what's really going on subscribe

20:17

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20:21

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20:26

dot com flash podcast to join

20:28

the community or just ninety nine cents

20:33

huma hail of presidential malfeasance

20:36

involves bill clinton it

20:38

starts with the whitewater scandal a sealed

20:41

land development venture involving vacation

20:43

properties along the white river in arkansas

20:46

whitewater the whitewater controversy

20:48

white water like lot of whitewater assess

20:50

the president's the first lady's

20:53

a bad real estate deals a failed

20:55

snl in august nineteen ninety

20:58

four kenneth starr is appointed independent

21:00

counsel to look into the matter while

21:02

fifteen people would ultimately be convicted

21:05

of crimes involving my water neither

21:07

clinton nor his wife hillary or ever

21:09

charged that brings clinton

21:11

perilously close to indictment the

21:14

a false testimony he gave during

21:16

a deposition

21:17

this occurs on january seventeenth

21:19

nineteen ninety eight while clinton as president

21:23

these required to testify in a sexual harassment

21:25

lawsuit filed against him by paula jones

21:28

a former arkansas state employees

21:31

if later dismissed but it sets

21:33

an important precedent clinton

21:36

v jones the us supreme court

21:38

says sitting presidents are not immune

21:40

from civil litigation involving something

21:42

they may have done before taking office

21:45

the deposition is held at the washington

21:47

law offices of clinton's attorney

21:49

robert bennett it lasts

21:51

about six hours and well

21:54

into questioning clinton is asked about his

21:56

relationship with former white house intern

21:59

monica lewin clinton's

22:01

answer i have never had

22:03

sexual relations with monica

22:05

lewinsky i have never had

22:07

an affair with her

22:09

the that didn't happen between clinton and lewinsky

22:11

the president testified truthfully days

22:14

after the deposition allegations

22:16

involving clinton and lewinsky became national

22:19

news on january twenty

22:21

sixth ninety sixth ninety clinton

22:24

with his wife hillary standing by his side

22:26

addresses the nation

22:28

but i want to say one thing to the

22:30

american i want

22:32

you to listen i'm listen i'm say this again i

22:35

did not have sexual

22:38

relations with that woman miss

22:40

lewinsky

22:41

independent counsel tennis star turns

22:43

his attention away from whitewater to

22:45

clinton's testimony and his deposition

22:47

in the jones case and clinton

22:50

gives videotape testimony for a federal

22:52

grand jury on aug seventeenth

22:54

night the ninety eight

22:56

and just hours before that testimony

22:58

f b i agents informed the independent

23:00

counsel's office that genetic

23:02

markers from a semen stained found

23:04

on one of lewinsky stresses match

23:07

clinton's dna during

23:09

his testimony clinton famously

23:11

says this

23:16

you're not gonna

23:19

do

23:20

your oh yeah

23:22

later any

23:27

manner shape or form

23:38

the money in the word is

23:41

and finally comes clean to the nation

23:44

later that day and an address from the

23:46

white house

23:47

good evening

23:48

that alone in this room from this

23:51

year

23:52

i testified before the office of independent

23:54

counsel and the grandeur

23:57

i answer their questions truthfully

23:59

including questions about my private

24:02

life

24:03

questions no american citizen would ever

24:05

want to and still

24:08

i'm a psych complete responsibility for all

24:10

my actions both public and private

24:13

that is why i'm speaking to you tonight

24:16

as you know

24:18

the deposition in january i was ask

24:20

questions about my relationship with

24:22

monica lewinsky while

24:24

my answers were legally accurate

24:26

the not volunteer information

24:29

indeed i did have a relationship with miss lewinsky

24:32

that was not appropriate

24:34

in fact it was wrong

24:36

it constituted a critical lapse in judgment

24:39

and a personal failure on my part which

24:42

i am sold

24:43

and completely response

24:45

star would be replaced as independent

24:47

counsel by robert ray and all

24:49

signs point to re obtaining an indictment

24:52

against clinton for perjury as

24:54

soon as clinton's term as president

24:56

ends

24:57

that on his last day in office clinton

25:00

and his attorneys work out a deal with the independent

25:02

counsel's office ray

25:04

agreeing not to pursue charges

25:07

clinton admits he gave false testimony

25:09

under oath the president also

25:11

agrees to pay twenty five thousand dollars

25:13

in fines and to accept a five

25:15

year suspension of his arkansas bar license

25:18

here's ray announcing the settlements

25:21

the fifteen months ago i

25:23

promise the american people that

25:25

i would complete this investigation

25:35

has acknowledged responsibility

25:38

, his actions actions has

25:40

admitted that he knowingly gave evasive

25:43

and misleading answers to answers

25:46

in the jones deposition and

25:48

that is conduct was presidential

26:05

i decline prosecution

26:08

this matter is now included

26:23

though it's you can see we've had some close

26:26

calls with president's being right on the brink

26:28

of indictment that never happened

26:30

in our nation's history if the past

26:33

is prologue than the odds are trump

26:35

will avoid indictment just as

26:37

nixon and clinton this

26:39

game isn't over not by a long

26:41

shot

26:42

some scholars who argue that a former president

26:45

can be charged point to a line

26:47

in the constitution it says

26:49

that even a president has been convicted

26:51

during an impeachment trial quote

26:54

shall nevertheless be liable and subject

26:56

to indictment trial judgment

26:59

and punishment according to the law they

27:02

argue that line suggests that president's can

27:04

be charged for misconduct once they've left

27:06

office

27:07

trump could argue that he's immune from prosecution

27:10

because he was president at the time all this occurred

27:13

that's what you've argued consistently in recent

27:15

years as he's faced legal challenges

27:18

there's a justice department memo that says

27:20

a sitting president cannot be indicted

27:23

the idea is that a president would carry out

27:25

his or her duties a lot differently if

27:27

they were constantly worried about the threat of prosecution

27:30

the o j memo however makes

27:33

no mention as to whether president's can be

27:35

prosecuted for something they did an office

27:37

after they leave the white

27:39

over the past few years

27:41

trump's lawyers have raised a lot of immunity

27:43

claims and judges have tossed

27:45

each one of them in the trump vs

27:47

dance case they lost they even

27:50

made this claim before the federal appeals

27:52

court in new york city

27:53

during arguments appeals court judge

27:56

danny chin or first to this claim

27:58

trump made during the twenty fifth team campaign

28:00

stop in iowa

28:02

i could stand in the middle of fifth avenue and shoots

28:04

somebody and i wouldn't lose any voters okay

28:07

sluggish

28:07

here's ten

28:09

questioning trump lawyer william

28:11

conservative

28:12

what's your view on on the assists avenue

28:15

example local ,

28:17

couldn't investigate they couldn't do anything

28:19

about it i think of once

28:21

the for a president is removed

28:24

from office the look any local authority

28:26

this local authority a permanent immunity law talked

28:28

about while in office know

28:31

that as the hypo direct i think

28:33

would be done with that your position that is correct

28:35

here again is claire finkelstein an

28:38

expert on presidential immunity

28:40

any lawyer is actually had

28:42

the nerve to argue that

28:44

that's correct that he would

28:47

not

28:48

would not be arrested could not

28:50

be stopped and that

28:52

he could engage in the in a murderous

28:55

rampage i'm and

28:57

that no one would have the right to stop

29:00

him and and in the philosophy

29:02

biz we call that a reductio ad

29:04

absurdum

29:05

their positions that position

29:07

is so absurd that anyone

29:10

can see that a sitting president

29:13

should not be so above the law

29:15

that he has the right to to start shooting

29:17

people upset that and

29:19

like we said the us supreme court

29:21

ruled that the manhattan da's office

29:23

could have access to trump's tax records

29:26

just as brett kavanaugh read a concurring

29:28

opinion to the majority rule the

29:30

says in our system

29:33

of government as this court has often

29:35

stated no one is above

29:37

the law interestingly

29:39

cavanaugh a tranquil point he was

29:41

joined by justice neil gorse it's

29:44

a fellow trump appointee

29:46

single parents as she wouldn't be surprised

29:48

if trump argues he can't be prosecuted

29:50

because what he was doing was part of his presidential

29:52

duties that she doesn't think

29:54

it'll work

29:55

the president's do a lot of

29:58

things while they're an office

29:59

their personal capacity and

30:02

, no immunity when president's

30:04

violate the law in their personal

30:06

capacity the immunity

30:08

as the cases have shown exists

30:11

only with regard to official capacity

30:13

actions so that's the

30:15

question in many cases

30:18

what's the president acting the president personal capacity

30:20

or in his professional capacity now

30:23

trying to win election

30:26

is the quintessential personal

30:28

capacity that the president

30:31

in that case is the candidate the

30:33

not acting club president

30:35

of the united states he's acting as

30:37

a candidate who's trying to win reelection

30:40

so when the president

30:42

crash heard

30:44

georgia officials to come up

30:46

with

30:47

more votes in order to

30:49

change the course of election he

30:52

had no immunity for any such

30:55

action because it's purely a personal capacity

30:58

there is really not

31:00

a lot of debate around this

31:03

george washington university law professor

31:05

john van agreed

31:07

i think trump may come up with some

31:09

kind of argument saying that you can't

31:12

indict him of for

31:14

acts what she did while he was still president

31:16

that came off by many years ago

31:19

with regard to nixon it came up but

31:21

later with regard to some of trump's

31:24

earlier

31:25

i would say shenanigans or goings on

31:28

and i think the majority view seems

31:30

to be that yes you can

31:33

indict a president not

31:35

while he is in office but

31:37

after he has left office and become

31:39

a private citizen and

31:41

, fact that a president

31:43

isn't much more of a position to

31:46

do harm as to do something

31:48

like change the outcome of a

31:50

state elections and directly a federal

31:53

action because of his position of power

31:56

makes it all the more

31:58

the wrong

32:00

that

32:01

in fact he should be subject to some kind

32:03

of criminal sanctions

32:05

the most times as charges should be

32:07

brought against trump if there weren't it

32:09

i think that will be annexed

32:10

pressed to them ah is

32:12

very important

32:14

that at the very least

32:16

presidents understand that they may be subject

32:18

to indictment after they leave office

32:21

there really isn't it in

32:23

the constitutional argument

32:25

a cast inciting

32:27

a city a former presidents

32:30

as long as we're not talking about official

32:32

business

32:33

generally speaking a prosecutor

32:35

brings a case when see or he has a

32:37

case to bring political fallout

32:40

is again generally not

32:42

generally factor as we said

32:44

that's not the case here prosecuting

32:46

trump has implications far beyond

32:49

that prosecution and of course

32:51

not prosecuting trump has a

32:53

whole other set of implications

32:55

greenberg the rutgers historian

32:58

sees both sides of the argument as

33:00

to whether criminal charges should be filed

33:03

the don't

33:04

current politics into

33:07

legal

33:08

punishment

33:10

and you are buying large

33:12

that

33:13

sound way of thinking

33:16

the prowl know why does what

33:18

about when you do have a president who

33:20

does he eat him pretty

33:23

the beer

33:24

the and dangerous lawbreaking

33:29

in a way that itself rent democracy

33:32

the nebula dilemma well as you

33:34

if you don't punish it

33:37

you're weak in a democracy or you're creating

33:39

problem for you come on his but then

33:41

if you do punish it

33:44

there are you also may be encouraging

33:46

the other side to see

33:48

the law is merely an instrument

33:50

of politics was not something you wanted

33:53

the ip

33:55

i i personally you think

33:57

prompts a fence is worse

33:59

that they should be

34:02

prosecuted

34:03

yeah do yeah

34:06

want kids

34:07

question and we don't want become a country

34:10

where former presidents

34:12

or

34:13

radio or me or semi regularly

34:17

on charges once the other

34:19

party gave our that

34:21

that would be bad for democracy

34:24

though there are some

34:26

the middle class easier

34:28

here's professor bands asked

34:29

then and i think the way to the

34:31

argument is use of a president

34:34

or , a clear crime while

34:36

the as president particularly one that

34:39

takes advantage of

34:41

the sites that use president's flattening

34:43

somebody would prosecution for a crime

34:46

if they don't do what he wants make

34:48

says prosecution all the more

34:50

important but again the

34:52

key question first questions going to come up his

34:55

hand they hand hand they and indictment

34:57

and i think the great way to the evidence is

34:59

yes they can district attorney

35:02

funny will as tells us in an interview ccs

35:04

a battle royale in the trial court

35:06

and on appeal if immunity arguments

35:09

and raised

35:09

we'll have many many days of legal arguments

35:12

arm a judge in my

35:14

guess is even the supreme court judge or georgia

35:17

will waking and on that issue on

35:19

i do not think that executive immunity

35:22

would protect against prosecution

35:24

and have kids

35:25

when will he talks about battling immunity arguments

35:28

it sure does sound like she's thinking of an

35:30

indictment

35:31

this is break down from the atlanta

35:34

journal constitution

35:37

the atlanta journal constitution presents

35:39

a sponsor one just a geisha thousands

35:42

of metro atlanta are crap and predatory

35:44

housing

35:45

here gunshot in the apartment

35:47

to farmers gonna learn today so i

35:49

just read or com be known as way

35:52

dollars later we

35:54

see a got holes in the apart two

35:56

hundred and fifty on seats on he'll

35:58

be an unlivable

35:59

and you don't pay for dangerous

36:02

dwellings my i'll enjoy and will be

36:04

mariano read or year long investigation

36:07

now and now and dot com it's nice

36:09

dwellings the

36:11

brave have their world title now it's

36:13

time to defend their crowd listen to the

36:15

braves report from the atlanta journal constitution

36:17

and here all reporters and experts on

36:19

the ground and in the clubhouse for every game

36:22

hosted by braves the reporter just into style

36:24

know and myself j black new episodes

36:26

drop every week follow on apple's

36:28

modify or average you get your pocket

36:35

when orders come out during the select committee

36:37

hearings many people are calling on us

36:40

attorney general merrick garland to bring

36:42

federal charges against trump that's

36:45

one

36:46

the other option is to decide

36:49

to basically points

36:51

i'm in favor of the prosecution

36:53

in in georgia

36:55

which would be eternally reasonable thing to do it's provided

36:57

for in the guidelines in department

36:59

justice or it happens all the time

37:02

or mainly to

37:04

you save on prosecutorial

37:07

resources and

37:09

show

37:10

at some point he's gonna look at were was

37:12

georgia doing

37:13

how strong is that case

37:16

in relation to the strength of the case

37:19

that's being made on the federal side

37:21

that new york attorney neck ackerman again

37:23

you've got no business interfering

37:26

in georgia's internal elections

37:28

he's got no business telling the secretary

37:30

of state where to do he's got no business

37:33

during the gov

37:34

to decertify the

37:36

are watching and call in the legislature

37:39

to

37:40

what in new electors so there's a whole

37:42

series of arguments that

37:45

this don't apply in

37:47

georgia which gives it in my

37:49

mind at least at this point

37:52

the stronger case

37:53

you got things like fraud in there

37:56

that that would fit the bill here

37:58

the on

37:59

yeah and in this particular

38:02

day

38:03

the shoes know your erosion are

38:05

shrinking violet and she's no newcomer

38:07

to rico charges so

38:11

that's why i think this is this is the case

38:13

to watch

38:14

the right in a little you're right in the middle the best

38:16

case down there

38:18

like we said at the end of episode five the

38:20

da's office notified at least two

38:22

prominent georgia republicans that they are

38:24

targets so the grand jury investigation

38:27

one is state republican party chairman

38:29

david save for the other is birch

38:32

jones est center is also

38:34

georgia republican nominee for lieutenant

38:36

governor

38:37

and now we know that willis has told

38:39

the other fourteen fake electors

38:42

that they too are potential targets

38:44

this was revealed and recent

38:46

failing

38:47

they include joseph brennan

38:49

treasurer of the state your p assistant

38:52

, vicky consigliere consigliere

38:55

you have he secretary ken carol march

38:57

hennessy and atlanta car dealership

38:59

cel atlanta lawyer

39:01

brad carver and mark amec

39:04

who sits on in georgia republican foundations

39:06

board of governors lawyers

39:08

representing eleven of the electors have

39:10

filed a motion asking mcburney to quash

39:13

the subpoena

39:14

almost as soon as jones name

39:16

became public his lawyers filed a motion

39:18

to disqualify d a well as from

39:20

investigating just the

39:22

motion notes the democratic nominee

39:24

for lieutenant governor his running against john

39:27

since november is charlie bailey

39:29

he once worked with willis in the fulton

39:31

da's office

39:32

the turned out that willis's campaign either

39:34

twenty five hundred dollar contribution to be

39:36

leave campaign on january thirty first

39:39

of this year then on june

39:41

fourteenth was hosted a fundraiser

39:43

for bally at a natural foods grocery store

39:45

in atlanta

39:47

this is six weeks after the start of

39:49

the special purpose grand jury

39:51

the motion also moved to disqualify

39:53

nathan weighed in atlanta attorney

39:55

who has been named a special prosecutor

39:58

during the special purpose grand jury and the

40:00

gate and wade contributed one

40:02

thousand dollars to bally's lieutenant

40:04

gubernatorial campaign on june

40:06

thirtieth

40:07

the motion include the thought it was a flyer for

40:09

the fundraiser and it says

40:11

because quote district attorney

40:13

funny willis's have sing at she was not

40:16

acting and her capacity as a private citizen

40:19

the motion states quote this

40:21

support may otherwise not have been an issue

40:24

if she and her office had not simultaneously

40:27

initiated special purpose grand jury

40:29

proceedings against mr bailey

40:31

soul opponent mr jones this

40:34

is a blatant effort to sway the outcome of the

40:36

election in mr bailey saver therefore

40:39

the a willis should be disqualified

40:41

jones lawyers bill bill and and hannah

40:43

clap from the taylor english law firm

40:46

are alleging willis has a clear conflict

40:48

of interest

40:49

the matter is before a judge robert mcburney

40:52

who is overseeing the grand jury investigation

40:55

the notion also gives me ferny another option

40:58

it's as he can issue an order ceiling the special

41:00

purpose grand juries recommendations

41:02

until after the november a it's elections

41:05

remember will as previously

41:07

found that if the investigation isn't wrapped

41:09

up by the time early voting begins in october

41:12

so pass work until after the elections

41:15

oh how much of a big deal is this

41:18

is the only country that i like the

41:20

prosecutor some

41:22

would argue that this is go to the territory

41:24

that if you have the politicians

41:27

prosecutors the money

41:29

they're gonna the but other politicians

41:32

and they have a person

41:34

them at right to do that they

41:36

can exercise free speech

41:39

that's the bright the former director the

41:41

southern center for human rights in atlanta

41:43

he's now a professor at both georgetown

41:46

and yale law schools

41:48

but regardless of that

41:50

the it a monumental blunder

41:53

that regard to the

41:56

special grand jury go

41:58

there was already

42:00

people are doing that it was politically

42:02

motivated finding out

42:04

that she was a democrat in that fulton county

42:06

was very democratic and you

42:09

need right in in some ways

42:12

that validates that crescent really

42:15

undermine the legitimacy

42:17

in credibility

42:19

the like a grand jury work

42:22

the hard to believe that the district attorney

42:24

will tell own death

42:26

as she was too

42:29

true that's fund raiser and also make

42:31

it very generous contribution

42:34

the to the campaign

42:36

bright side even so there's not

42:38

enough they are to justify disqualifying

42:40

well us and her office from jones's

42:42

portion of the case

42:44

even so

42:45

the optics of this one wonders

42:47

what was she thinking i mean what

42:49

i see thank you know to have that

42:51

the runway right

42:54

at the same time that he's initiating

42:57

a special ranger

43:00

this is a time when one

43:02

would hope that the prosecutor

43:05

, do you know adopt

43:07

data caesar's wife approach

43:10

not to do anything which might raise

43:12

any questions lawyers have

43:14

to be concerned about appearance

43:18

now does this look to the average person

43:20

out there dot obviously

43:23

there were no consideration of that at all

43:25

your because it looks terrible are

43:28

you hard for me to imagine that anyone

43:30

looking at this would not have

43:32

that feeling

43:34

about

43:35

with i'm really

43:37

that land for criminal defense attorney jack

43:39

martin

43:40

the that this way

43:42

the go see the democrat in

43:44

a is not the proud that he supports

43:46

other democrats

43:48

the

43:49

because become a tax return it doesn't mean

43:51

that you for forfeiture

43:53

gabi to prosecute the by now the party just

43:55

because

43:56

in another part the though

43:59

it

44:00

the might be a good question of whether they've got

44:02

you've got beyond that

44:04

absolutely he

44:06

owed her holding up the podemos

44:09

my body

44:10

the ball

44:11

martin says that willis could decide to

44:13

recuse herself and turn it over to another prosecutor

44:16

maybe another d i or someone in the state

44:18

attorney general's office

44:19

also just be clear the

44:21

january thirty first campaign contributions

44:24

by willis and way were made before

44:26

the special purpose grand jury was even

44:28

convene the now we know

44:31

that the da's office informed jones

44:33

that he was a target on july six

44:36

about three weeks after willis's

44:38

fundraiser for bail in

44:40

a green cross an attorney representing

44:43

the fulton da's office pointed out

44:45

that the fundraiser for bailey was when

44:47

he was competing in the democratic runner

44:49

for lieutenant governor before anyone

44:51

knew who would be going head to head against

44:54

jones in november that

44:56

said we've known for awhile now

44:59

that the special purpose grand jury was focusing

45:01

on the slate of fake electors

45:03

in a recent court filing the da's

45:06

office said there is no merit to the disqualification

45:08

motion

45:09

it adds the joneses motion sales

45:12

to point out any single action

45:14

taken by willis that was motivated by

45:16

political bias or personal interest

45:18

also quote

45:20

the team campaign support does not amount

45:22

to a conflict of interest

45:24

it says jones and the other fifteen

45:26

potential targets are being investigated

45:29

for participating in the creation of a document

45:31

that identified them as quote

45:34

the really elected and qualified electors

45:36

for president and vice president in

45:39

that document was submitted to the national

45:41

archives the motion as

45:44

the jones has been treated identically

45:46

to each of the other unofficial electors

45:49

judge robert mcburney heard arguments

45:51

this past thursday during

45:54

a two hour hearing he scolded well as

45:56

for holding the fundraiser for bail

45:59

very meeting

45:59

hungry you

46:04

are trying to do have a public

46:06

believe

46:11

mcgregor repay

46:15

, we're trying to maintain

46:17

confidence that this investigation

46:20

is pursuing back on part

46:22

of america just turn you

46:24

be foleo is where cause ignore

46:27

the fact that i was device or was on

46:29

a result mary

46:33

problematic maybe not

46:36

from i target pro wow

46:48

i use my this august blank

46:50

slate me that as desperate concern i'm working

46:53

group is that our case

46:55

a appearance is

46:57

, a capital a real classy

46:59

last fundraiser district attorney

47:01

for the political alliance on the market

47:04

of my head head

47:06

legal mounted com

47:08

on national com all about

47:11

the humanities despite

47:15

that make bernie pressed jones lawyer

47:17

bill dylan about what exactly

47:19

what fair solution one

47:21

we were expecting mcburney to issue a ruling

47:23

in the days ahead

47:25

that bernie made to other notable decisions

47:27

at the hearing

47:28

first he told a lawyer for eleven

47:31

of the sixteen alternate electors

47:33

that her clients must honor their subpoenas

47:36

and testify before the grand jury

47:38

the electors had argued that they shouldn't be forced

47:41

to come in and potentially incriminate

47:43

themselves now that the da's office

47:45

has confirmed their target

47:47

bernie clarified that the electors could

47:49

still plead the fifth amendment refused

47:51

to answer questions on the grounds that it may

47:53

incriminate themselves

47:55

the also made another important promise no

47:58

october surprise

47:59

the

47:59

the special grand jury wraps up it's investigation

48:02

this fall they burn he said he'll

48:04

hold off on releasing his final

48:06

recommendations until after the

48:09

election

48:15

it's rare for

48:19

me know

48:22

how the

48:24

way the investigation hell out

48:27

of i'd say the district attorney's office

48:30

metal risk injury or how how

48:36

are you direction see

48:39

how we can really help afternoon

48:42

the previous episode we told you

48:45

that us sen lindsey graham of south

48:47

carolina challenge to subpoena to

48:49

appear before the special purpose grand jury

48:52

a hearing for grams motion to quash

48:54

was initially scheduled for last wednesday

48:56

in greenville south carolina then

48:58

it was

48:59

the charleston

49:00

then both sides reached an agreement

49:02

in which graham agreed to accept service

49:05

and his subpoenaed to testify while

49:07

preserving his right to challenge it in fulton

49:09

county

49:10

and yet another development they seem to

49:12

be popping up multiple times a day now

49:14

the new york judge has ordered rudy

49:17

giuliani to testify before the special

49:19

purpose grand jury a court filing

49:21

disclosed that giuliani didn't show

49:23

up at a hearing set for july thirteenth

49:26

to show cause why he shouldn't honor his

49:28

subpoena for that reason

49:30

new york judge thomas farber ordered

49:32

trump's former personal attorney to

49:35

appear before the fulton county grand jury

49:37

on august ninth or any other

49:40

date so ordered by the court

49:42

last week us representative jody

49:44

heists of georgia became the second

49:46

member of congress to challenge his subpoena

49:50

a lawyer for heiss filed a motion on

49:52

july eighteenth seeking to move the

49:54

matter to federal court

49:56

if i prices status as a member of congress

49:59

and argues that

49:59

you should be heard before a judge in the

50:02

us district court in atlanta

50:04

not before a judge make bernie and fulton

50:06

county superior court

50:08

we spoke about federal removal

50:10

a little bit an episode for the

50:12

idea is that federal officials can

50:14

transfer can criminal action brought

50:16

against them against state court to

50:18

federal court that is if

50:20

the prosecution is quote for

50:23

or relating to any act under

50:25

color of such office

50:27

and as we've said colorado means

50:29

only a plausible argument needs to be

50:32

made here's attorney jack martin

50:34

again explaining what the federal judge

50:36

must decide well

50:38

the to bring their important on

50:40

the weather

50:42

rodgers painters were crying about better

50:45

than

50:45

we then

50:47

top of the com the hype

50:49

the

50:51

if it was a matter of it had nothing to do with

50:53

his progress of beauty

50:54

that yeah

50:56

in your cooperate in regard to

50:58

trading fault the

51:00

public years

51:01

or other issues that deal with

51:04

the crime or not

51:07

are there proud of duty

51:08

i prefer

51:10

the boy did you

51:12

the

51:13

the opportunity for federal

51:16

you don't play

51:18

whether that he has in fact

51:21

oh are you near the they before

51:23

that is that is protected from

51:25

type of fake five mile

51:28

the procedure

51:29

the case was assigned to us district

51:32

judge li may in atlanta a

51:34

hearing is set for the afternoon of july

51:36

twenty fifth

51:37

richmond highest is a vocal proponent

51:40

of the stop the steel movement in

51:42

late twenty twenty he joined a texas

51:44

legal challenge seeking to invalidate

51:46

charges election results at the supreme

51:48

court that failed s

51:52

her

51:52

the consent of the governed

51:55

as a ballot boxes violated

51:58

then we are you serious

52:01

horrible and it is my decency

52:03

since third grade weapons burgers

52:05

has massively compromise the

52:07

right of the people at the ballot box

52:11

the also introduced an objection to george's

52:14

electoral college vote hours after

52:16

the january sixth insurrection prices

52:19

close with white house chief of staff mark

52:21

meadows the to worked alongside

52:23

one another for years in the house freedom

52:25

caucus hi susan the white

52:27

house a few days before christmas twenty

52:29

twenty with meadows attorney

52:31

rudy giuliani and about a dozen other

52:34

republican members of congress according

52:37

to testimony provided by cassidy hutchison

52:39

the former top aide to meadows before

52:42

the january six committee the group allegedly

52:44

discussed organizing a slate of alternative

52:47

republican electors

52:49

i've also challenged secretary of

52:51

state bread reference burger in mais je

52:53

o p primary the that trump's

52:55

endorsement and echoed much of the misinformation

52:58

about widespread election fraud in georgia

53:00

that he lost big to rapids burger

53:03

we don't know exactly what the special grand

53:05

jury wants to ask that

53:07

certainly not surprising that they'd want

53:09

to talk to him

53:12

next on breakdown

53:13

secretary of state brad reference burger

53:16

and his deputy gates sterling talk

53:18

about their experiences appearing before

53:20

the special purpose grand jury and

53:22

what it was like being in the national spotlight

53:24

for the january sixth committee hearing

53:27

well it's interesting that a few months ago

53:29

people were still asking about state farm oh

53:31

that's where that allegation that the ballots were

53:34

being stuffed well now

53:36

, know or have had many

53:38

opportunities and and looting information out

53:40

there that are still we looked at the

53:42

of know i looked at gbr look at it and

53:45

if you don't trust any of those resources president

53:48

trump hand picked someone to look at that

53:50

himself that was bobbi kristina who

53:53

came up from savannah as the savannah as trained

53:55

the southern district became acting us

53:57

attorney the northern district he looked at that

53:59

specific

54:01

what obviously when it gets up your

54:04

on he's a cable news networks than

54:06

it does it ever pretty get taken back

54:08

off they just move on to something else

54:11

as always thank you so much for listening

54:13

we will continue to drop in episode every

54:16

week over the next few weeks then

54:18

we'll come back from time to time whenever major

54:20

news breaks in this story and

54:23

i think you can count on that happening

54:25

you can follow our daily coverage on our website

54:28

aj see dot com and

54:30

if you really want to support local journalism

54:33

particularly journalism journalism please

54:35

subscribe to the a jc

54:37

the safe and take care of until next

54:39

time i'm bill rank them

54:41

and i'm him are hallerman

54:43

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54:46

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54:54

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54:56

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54:59

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55:04

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55:08

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