0:08

Pushkin Andre

0:12

three thousand, best known as half

0:14

of Atlanta's Outcast, arguably the

0:16

greatest hip hop duo of all time

0:19

and definitely one of the most

0:21

gifted rappers ever. Outside

0:24

of Atlanta. Most rap fans first heard of

0:26

Outcast in nineteen ninety five when

0:28

they got booed at the Source Awards after

0:30

winning Best New Artist. This

0:33

was at the start of the East Coast West Coast rivalry,

0:35

and Andre threw down the gauntlet, declaring

0:37

the South got something to say.

0:40

Andrea and his partner Big Boy were the first

0:42

Southern rappers to see the same sales success

0:45

as any of their East or West Coast counterparts.

0:48

In two thousand and three, They're double album

0:50

speaker Box The Love Below was certified

0:52

Diamond, meaning it sold over ten

0:54

million copies and artistically

0:57

that album remains one of the all time

1:00

creative high water marks and music.

1:02

But as you're about to hear, Andre is often

1:05

haunted by his own legacy.

1:07

He sat down for tea with Rick Rubin at Shangri

1:09

La and talked about how fame crippled

1:11

his creativity and why it's so hard

1:13

for him to quiet the noise and make new

1:16

music. The rap fan of me, the

1:18

music, fan of me, the all things.

1:21

Andre three thousand fan of me is

1:23

absolutely in love with this episode,

1:25

and I think you're gonna love it too. Enjoy.

1:31

This is broken record line of

1:33

notes for the digital age. I'm just a mission.

1:36

Here's Rick Rubin with Andre three thousand

1:39

from Shangri La. When you were starting

1:41

to make music, what would have been the touchstone

1:43

influences that got you'd want to actually

1:46

make music. I'll have to say

1:48

Tribe and Dark Powell snooping

1:51

them

1:54

and just it was when you at that point

1:56

of discovery as a kid and

2:00

seeing these new ways of

2:02

doing things, these new ways of rapping,

2:04

like the way

2:07

how our glyphics were rapping at the time,

2:09

it was completely new.

2:12

Yeah, the phrasing was different, Yes,

2:15

the ending of words, man

2:17

Eminem. We sat on the phone about

2:19

an hour talking about

2:22

how our glyphics crew like how

2:25

those words and we were trading Yeah,

2:27

and like their lyrics on the phone,

2:30

like do you remember man, Yeah, Like they

2:32

sparked so much. They

2:34

opened up a new door for everybody, I

2:36

think, and I

2:39

think just to be around that time and to be like

2:42

we we were out when Woo was out, We were out when

2:45

Nas was out so but we're

2:47

from the South, so it's kind of like we had to step

2:49

up. Like I think that was the best blessing.

2:52

I know, people look at the footage of us

2:54

winning the Source Award and what I had to say

2:57

on stage, like, oh that was it

2:59

was messed up. They're bing boo. But I think that was the biggest

3:01

blessing for us to have to have

3:04

to just be better. Yeah, to

3:07

have to fight and really prove that we were

3:09

really in to what we were doing. And I could

3:11

understand how they may have taken you

3:13

know, first album is just you know, just just some

3:15

Southern you know, riding around

3:17

you know, Caliac smoking chick you know, smoking

3:20

and eat chicken Wayans kind of stuff like that. But

3:23

it made us have to be

3:25

better because we were on the road. We're

3:28

on the road where Red Man, we were opening

3:30

up for these people, so we got

3:32

that schooling, you know, so we had to

3:35

become we had to become

3:37

better. What's interesting about it too, is that

3:39

you you did become better, but

3:41

you didn't become at all like any of them.

3:44

You know. It really was completely original,

3:47

and I think that's the reason why it's still

3:50

holds up to the test of time. Is I

3:53

don't know anyone who's really made music sense

3:55

like the music that you made. It's very

3:58

unique. I would have to say

4:00

that that is because of the dungeon,

4:04

like the kind of our incubator,

4:06

Like the dungeon was basically a house with

4:10

us, you know, goody mob pa.

4:12

We were all in a basement, drum

4:15

machines, house speakers, you

4:17

know, dirt, no no walls,

4:20

actually dirt where the furnace and all that kind of stuff

4:23

was. And that was a place where

4:25

you you leave your job,

4:27

leave school. You'd come down there and you

4:30

might smoke, you might talk about issues.

4:32

You but you rapping. So I'm

4:35

trading versus. Could you go over that? Trade

4:37

versus? Clow come trade versus. So it was

4:40

at a certain point we started

4:42

building our own slang, you know, so it

4:44

became a world in itself.

4:47

So we gained confidence in

4:49

ourselves. You know, like when

4:51

I say king shit, somebody else say king shit, we

4:53

knew what that meant because we would talk that way

4:55

around the dungeon. So a certain

4:58

confidence and a certain building

5:02

of our vocabulary and building of our own

5:04

styles. It was like we were creating

5:06

this own world. So by the time it hit every

5:08

everybody else it may have sounded

5:11

like something else, you know, but we were influenced

5:13

by everything, and there were times where

5:16

I sounded Souls of mischief

5:18

e. You know, my

5:21

very first rap that I remember writing out of high school,

5:23

which sounded cute, tippish, you

5:25

know what I mean, because that's what I'm listening to. It

5:27

makes sense, you know what I mean. Really found your own

5:30

voice yet, but you but you developed

5:32

your skill as a writer doing it like

5:34

him, to find your

5:36

way in yes, and then eventually it's like,

5:38

oh, well that's more like him, and this other

5:40

way it's more like me, right. Yeah.

5:43

I originally was at a club in

5:46

LA in this place where you know indie

5:48

bands played like, you know, first

5:52

few shows you've ever played. And I

5:54

saw a band and I saw him perform,

5:56

and they came and asked me

5:58

what I thought after performance, and

6:01

I said, man, you

6:04

gotta keep keep going, you

6:06

gotta keep doing it, because it's like, yeah, man, we've

6:08

been trying to decide if we should wait till we

6:10

get a deal before we do shows.

6:12

I was like, no, no, because

6:15

you're a training ground. Lets you know what

6:18

you are, who you are of course

6:21

you want to sound like everybody you love, but

6:23

in the end you really don't. You know what I

6:25

mean, You don't, but you don't. You don't get to

6:27

that point until you've

6:29

put it out there and you've heard yourself sound

6:32

horrible or you've heard yourself sound exactly

6:34

like something but not as good as what

6:36

you love. Yes, it takes that time.

6:38

So a lot of our proven ground. We're in the dungeon,

6:41

you know. We didn't do it a lot of shows. To be honest,

6:44

it was and it took me to

6:46

that point. It took me a while to learn how to perform.

6:48

Actually, I mean I could write. I was more of a writer,

6:50

but even if you listen to the first album, I couldn't

6:53

even nuncey to say my words, you

6:55

know, like I wanted to, because

6:57

those muscles weren't built, you know,

6:59

and people I don't understand that. Performing

7:03

even vocally, it is a muscle

7:06

and you have to exercise it. And the more you exercise it,

7:08

the stronger you get. The more you are

7:10

in front of people, you know what

7:12

works, what doesn't work, and you can

7:14

play with that and bring it back into your writing,

7:17

and you have more confidence in your writing so all

7:19

all those building moments are

7:23

important to find your your voice.

7:25

Absolutely, and there's really no shortcuts.

7:28

It's you just have to do the word.

7:31

It's not and it's and it's hard, it's very it's

7:33

very hard. That I remember times where

7:35

Rico Rico Wade. There

7:37

will be times where I would come down

7:40

and I say, check this out, and I would

7:42

bust a word for him, and he would

7:44

just get up and walk away. I say

7:46

anything, and

7:48

I would like, fun wrong with him, you

7:51

know what I mean, Like, damn, this kind of disrespect,

7:53

you know what I mean. But it took me a minute

7:55

to realize that, wouldn't it. Yeah,

7:58

And then I remember one time I

8:01

maybe had smoke to joint and then winning the in

8:03

the booth, and I was kind of out of it and

8:05

I just started rapping with my normal

8:07

voice, like my speaking voice, and

8:10

we said that's it, and

8:13

that was it. Yeah.

8:15

It's amazing how those breakthroughs happen almost

8:19

when you're not really looking, you know, like when

8:21

you're not paying attention, something happens.

8:24

You gotta move out the way, Yeah, but

8:26

you gotta you gotta work for moving

8:29

out the way too, You gotta you

8:31

can't move out the way so far that nothing happens.

8:33

Yeah, so you have to work hard

8:36

and then wait for that moment. Was that there

8:39

it is? Yeah, you know, be open to recognizing

8:42

it when it happens. Yeah,

8:44

but community, man, like, yeah,

8:47

it's it's funny because and thank you for

8:49

the opportunity to be on this on this podcast.

8:52

But when I learned that I was coming,

8:54

and you know, I learned that it was you and Malcolm's

8:57

thing. I'd never read any of Malcolm's

8:59

books, bought them and then I went

9:01

on on the road and did something and I

9:03

forgot to read them. So I was like, all right,

9:05

I'll of respect, let me read, you

9:07

know, at least read a book. And I

9:09

don't read much. I actually don't, and so I

9:12

read outlies and it, man, it blew

9:14

my mind. It completely

9:17

blew my mind. And it really

9:19

made me think of the

9:21

community that gives you

9:23

opportunity to be

9:27

all of this and that's what the dungeon.

9:29

Yeah, and had there not been a dungeon,

9:32

who knows what you would have done. You know, like it really

9:35

and that wasn't anything that you decided

9:37

to make happen. It's like so much of it

9:39

is chance. It was, Yeah, like things

9:42

just happened. The universe sets up a

9:44

situation and something

9:47

good happened, something comes out of it. I

9:49

was just talking about that today earlier with my friend

9:52

when I was going to college or decided between

9:54

going at NYU and University Chicago,

9:57

and had I gone to University Chicago, my

10:00

whole life would have been different because hip hop was happening

10:02

in New York and I happened to be there. But

10:04

if I was somewhere else, I wouldn't have known what

10:06

was going on there because I wouldn't have been in it. Yep. And

10:09

that's just luck. You

10:11

know that has it is? It's luck,

10:14

it's chances. Maybe

10:16

you were just supposed it was supposed to happen

10:18

to you, And I believe in that as well. It's like

10:20

it's like it's

10:22

so much of it is out of our control, but

10:26

but I'm always grateful when something

10:28

good happens. You know. It's like I

10:31

know I can't make it happen, but

10:34

I know that I can be open to

10:36

it happen. I'll invite it in and

10:39

welcome it and do

10:41

everything I can to best support

10:44

this thing that arrives that

10:46

I know is bigger

10:48

than me. Yes, you know, it's

10:50

magical. It really is. Magic

10:53

really is. And it's the hardest

10:55

part of that is when something bad happens

10:58

and feeling the bad thing

11:02

and remembering trying

11:04

to separate ourselves

11:07

from the thing that happened that didn't work out or

11:09

didn't go the way we wanted it to go, and

11:11

to say, Okay, imagine

11:14

that's a scene in a movie, I

11:16

can't wait to see what happens next, do you know what I

11:18

mean, instead of just sinking

11:20

into the vibe,

11:22

because because it's the same, it's the same vibe

11:25

of when the good thing happens, it's

11:27

the same. It's like, good things happen,

11:29

bad things happen. It's that's all

11:31

part of life. Yeah, And just sort of

11:34

staying neutral

11:36

and riding the wave. You

11:38

know, I'm learning. I'm still learning that. You

11:41

know. It's hard. It's hard riding

11:43

you say it, riding that waves. It's hard

11:45

because you dip down low. Sometimes

11:48

you get stuck, you know, absolutely, especially

11:50

if you're used to the wave

11:52

going a certain way. Yes, you know, And I

11:54

think that's when you have to kind of lay

11:57

yourself down and kind of just let

12:00

it be. Yeah, you know, And that's that's hard. It's

12:02

hard for me. Yes, it's very hard for me. Yes, Well,

12:05

you've been listening too lately instrumental

12:09

music. I was just turned on to Steve

12:11

Wright. Wow. Great, I just

12:14

chest now, like and I'm like, what the hell

12:16

have I been? Because I knew Philip Glass. I was

12:18

always into Field Glass, but I never Then

12:20

somebody said, well, if you like Philip Glass, you'll

12:23

love Steve right. Yeah, like what I

12:26

heard. I was like, what, Yeah,

12:28

I've been into a lot of a lot of instrumental

12:31

music now because

12:34

I'm I just had a point where I

12:38

sometimes I figure, like a lot of lyrics just bombarding,

12:42

you know. And I know it sounds crazy coming from a rap

12:44

artist, but I think sometimes,

12:47

you know, just sometimes

12:50

the thoughts just just take over,

12:53

you know, and then not necessarily anything you want

12:55

to be a part of, you want to party and you know. But

12:59

I kind of that I kind of like music that I

13:01

can have my own thoughts too. Yes, you

13:03

know, that's kind of where I've been lately.

13:06

Beautiful. What's

13:10

your process like making music these days?

13:12

Do you do you make much? Not so much?

13:14

How would you say? I

13:16

haven't been making much music? Man? My my

13:19

focus is not there, my confidence

13:22

is not there. I

13:25

tinker. I tinker a lot, Like

13:29

I'll just go to a piano and I'll

13:32

set my iPhone down and just record what I'm

13:34

doing, move my fingers around and

13:36

whatever happens. But I hadn't been motivated

13:38

to do a serious

13:40

project. I'd

13:44

like to, but it's just it's just not

13:46

coming in my

13:49

in my own self, I'm trying to

13:51

figure out where do I Where do I Where do I sit?

13:54

And you know, I don't I don't

13:56

even know what I am And maybe I'm nothing. Maybe

13:58

I'm not supposed to be anything. Maybe you

14:00

know, my history is kind of handicapping

14:03

in a way. And so I'm just trying to

14:05

find out what

14:09

makes me feel the best right

14:11

now. And what makes you feel the best

14:13

is when I just do these

14:15

random, kind of instrumental

14:18

kind of things. You know, they make me feel that, they make

14:20

me feel the most

14:23

rebellious. Yes, you know, I don't know.

14:25

I have a really rebellious but I don't like to go

14:27

with the flow. Really, I don't know why. Yes,

14:30

but I just feel best when I don't. Yes,

14:32

you know, So I have to honor that, understand, I

14:34

have to honor that in a way, you know, Oh for

14:37

sure, for sure. I think

14:41

so much of it isn't to be decided,

14:45

do you know what I'm saying. It's not. I don't

14:47

think it's to be figured out. I think it's

14:49

more to be I

14:52

think you make a lot of you start

14:54

making a lot of things with no thinking

14:58

of what it's supposed to be or who's it

15:00

for, what anyone else is going to think. But

15:02

just get in the habit of making

15:05

a lot. That's what I gotta get

15:07

back to me. Yeah, just make a lot. And

15:10

then at some point in that process

15:12

you'd be like, m I

15:14

really like this. It didn't and you didn't know, like

15:17

through through that whole process, you don't know when that's

15:19

going to happen. Yeah, And it's not. It's

15:22

not a decision you make. And it's

15:24

not an intellectual idea where

15:27

I have a vision and I'm going to make this thing. It

15:29

doesn't. It doesn't happen like there rarely happens

15:32

like that. It happens more just having

15:35

fun making things. No

15:40

no stakes, you know, there's

15:42

no nothing's on the line to

15:44

see. That's that's that's I'm got to say. That's hard

15:46

to do when everything

15:49

is actually I mean when the

15:52

problem with being an artist, a successful

15:54

artist, yes, is

15:57

you have to find a comfortable place to

15:59

do that again, Yes, but think about

16:01

they come to place to feel uncomfortable

16:04

with what I'm saying. But the way that you made

16:06

the stuff that ended up being

16:08

successful wasn't

16:12

made from a place of feeling any

16:14

responsibility, right because it because the

16:17

attention wasn't there at all yet

16:19

in a way, you know, And it's kind of like you were still

16:22

proving yourself. And it's

16:25

so I liken it to like if you're a kid

16:27

and you're in your room, you're plan

16:30

you know, with with toys and you hops,

16:35

and you you have this world going on. Yes, the

16:37

moment when your mom opens the door and says

16:39

Andre, that world kind of

16:41

stops. Yes, you know what I mean. So once

16:45

the attention is on that world, that

16:47

the world goes away. So

16:51

you got to find a way to get back to

16:53

that place to where you can build

16:56

those worlds again and not have the eyes

16:58

or like the judge, you know. And

17:01

that's that's a that's that's hard for me.

17:03

It's really hard for me because and I mean you see

17:05

it everywhere now, any little

17:07

thing I put out is instantly like attacked,

17:10

not not in a good or a bad way.

17:13

Well well I'm saying the the yeah,

17:16

and people nitpick it like with fine

17:18

tooth comb, like oh he

17:21

said that word, you know what I mean? And

17:23

that's that's not a great place to to

17:25

create from, you know what I mean. And it makes

17:27

you it makes you draw

17:29

back, and then maybe I don't have the

17:32

confidence that I want or the space

17:34

to experiment like I used to. When

17:37

the stuff that people love from back then, it was

17:39

in a place you

17:42

would free. Yeah, you free. You didn't give a shit, you didn't

17:44

care like because they didn't. They didn't care. They ain't even

17:46

like you. No, you know what I mean. So it's like,

17:49

great, don't like what we're doing. Now we

17:51

can just do what we're doing. But the same

17:53

holds true now. So now

17:56

you can make stuff that you

17:58

as long as you like it.

18:00

It doesn't matter if they like it or not because they

18:03

hated you back then. It's the same. It's the

18:05

same, do you know what I'm saying. The only

18:07

thing that's changed is your point of view.

18:09

Really, yes, nothing

18:12

else has changed, and that's

18:15

that is within your control. You can

18:18

you can you

18:20

can decide to read what someone else says

18:22

or give them that power, or you can say

18:25

they can think what they want and you Usually

18:27

here's another part of it. This is very interesting when

18:30

someone is

18:32

critical of something you do, usually

18:35

that's more about them than it is about you.

18:38

Do you know what I'm saying. It's

18:40

like it's a that's

18:43

what they see because of who they

18:45

are. It has nothing

18:47

to do with you, right, do

18:49

you know what I'm saying? Well, that's that brings to

18:52

another point because I've noticed that I'm very

18:54

judgmental at this point of my own self.

18:56

So as that's saying that I'm just in a not

18:59

so great play, yes, you know, yeah,

19:01

and I and I feel that I feel

19:04

very judgmental and I hate it, like I don't

19:06

want to be judgmental. It's almost like being

19:08

a movie director but not being able to

19:10

go to the movie theater and see movies on Friday like

19:12

you used to, because you're judging every shot.

19:14

Yes, you're judging every light lighting

19:17

situation. You're like, oh man, they adr

19:19

that one up. You know. It's it's kind of like how

19:22

do you get away from that? Yeah, it's almost like

19:24

you know too much. Yes, yes, yeah,

19:27

yes, you know too much. And I think as

19:29

you go along, you

19:32

just got to find a way to break free of everything

19:34

you know. And that's very

19:36

hard. That's very hard, even even melody

19:39

wise, like I'm getting sick of my melodies

19:41

because they're all they

19:44

seem like they're tied to something that I know,

19:47

or so I try to just throw

19:49

notes anywhere just to try.

19:53

Yeah. Yeah,

19:56

and I think that's that rebellious kind

19:58

of unrespirit, that turn left spirit

20:00

when everybody's going this way because you're

20:03

looking for something else. But it's it's

20:05

very it's very hard when you've been doing it for so long.

20:07

Understood it's very hard. But moving forward

20:10

to try to help work through this stuff, make something

20:12

to where you're

20:15

happy you made it. That's all like something you'd be happy

20:17

to play for your friend. That would be the ultimate.

20:19

That's the ultimate. I mean for me,

20:21

if I make something, I'm excited to play it for my friend.

20:25

That's it. Yeah, you know what I mean. That's that's

20:27

what I've that's what I've been doing lately. That's it. That's

20:29

that's that's the whole mission. Yeah,

20:32

we'll be back with under three thousand after the break,

20:39

we're back with more of under three thousand. Growing

20:42

up, would you say you were hard on yourself or

20:44

yeah, for sure. I think especially

20:46

as a kid when you're trying to

20:48

fit in or trying to

20:50

figure out what you are, Like am I cool

20:53

like that? Or do I want to be hanging

20:55

with these people? Or do what do they think of me?

20:57

Or oh man, it's this girl? Does she really

21:00

like me? Or you know, am I cool

21:02

enough for it? Like all of those things that most kids

21:04

go through. You get

21:06

it, but I think I

21:10

think I think

21:13

I did do it a little bit more. And maybe

21:15

because isolation and

21:17

I think when you're alone

21:19

a lot you contemplate,

21:22

yes, and when you have a lot of

21:24

time to contemplate, sometimes

21:27

it's not good. Yeah, you

21:29

know. And so that's when I said, like if I

21:31

had brothers and sisters, yeah, I wouldn't have to

21:33

worry about certain things with

21:36

social anxieties order like I was diagnosed

21:38

years ago and hypersensitivity

21:41

like with that kind of thing, isolation

21:43

is not good. But I feel most comfortable

21:45

being isolated. So I spend ninety

21:48

five percent of my time by myself,

21:50

yes, you know, and that that gives

21:52

you time to analyze,

21:55

and the brain loves to find problems

21:57

absolutely even if they're not there,

22:00

absolutely, and so the

22:03

judgment will kind of analyzing. It's

22:05

kind of running book. Yeah,

22:08

so you have to find ways to break

22:11

out of that kind of thing. And but

22:13

the other side of it is it's that same

22:15

hypersensitivity

22:18

that makes you a great artist. You know.

22:20

It's like therapist, my therapist, the same thing. It's

22:22

the truth. It's the truth. It's it's

22:25

like it's a blessing and

22:27

a curse. Yeah, it's harder to be in

22:29

the world, but that's the gift,

22:32

and it's I know, it's

22:34

it's man, it's there

22:36

have been times where I would like I've prayed, like

22:39

prayed to a god that I didn't even

22:41

know it existed. Really, yes, pray

22:44

like I would rather you take this

22:46

away from me, all of this, and

22:48

just if I could just feel normal like that, if I

22:50

could just feel normal, like take voice,

22:53

career, all that shit, you can have it, if

22:55

I could feel normal. Yes, But

22:57

it don't work like that. No, I just don't.

22:59

It's really sad. But that's why a lot of artists

23:02

o D. That's why young artists die

23:04

from drugs, is they're sensitive

23:06

people. There's all especially

23:08

in success, there's all this emotion

23:11

that no one teaches us

23:14

how to deal with. No, and

23:16

it's weird. Even people

23:18

that you know for a long time start acting different to

23:20

you. Yes, and you start acting different because they

23:22

start at it's it's weird. It's the whole the

23:25

whole thing's unnatural. No one teaches you how

23:27

to deal with it, and it's it's

23:29

crazy. It's a crazy it's it make it's

23:31

a crazy making process. Yes, and

23:35

yes, and so people do

23:37

stuff to try to just numb that pain. Oh

23:39

yeah, oh yeah, yeah,

23:41

yeah, yeah,

23:44

it makes sense. It's self medication. You know. It's

23:46

like I just don't want to feel

23:49

everything all the time. I

23:52

understand. Yeah, yeah,

23:54

you got it.

23:56

You got Well, we're we're

23:59

aliking many ways. Yeah,

24:02

and even a lot of people in the world

24:04

too, I'm finding you know, you

24:06

know, it's I think we do get it differently

24:09

because of the career we've chosen

24:11

or that chose us. But they're

24:14

when researching you know, this

24:17

condition, there are kids that have

24:19

it. Yeah, they are kids that just don't know

24:22

how to how to deal

24:24

in the world. Yes, in that way, you know,

24:26

Yes, and especially if your

24:28

parents aren't as sensitive

24:30

as you are. Then it's really confusing.

24:33

It's there, it's like they're

24:35

the adults. They're supposed to know everything. Yeah,

24:37

and they don't even see this

24:40

stuff that's happening. Yeah, and

24:42

you can't explain it. No, they don't want under They're

24:44

just like, oh, why do you think? Why? Why are you thinking about

24:46

that? And then I mean, I'm talking

24:48

about the last

24:51

fifteen twenty years. I mean we're just

24:53

now starting to get titles

24:55

for this stuff, you know, names

24:57

that you call it. What about the people that didn't

24:59

have the names for it back then, like or

25:02

didn't have medicine for it? Absolutely,

25:04

what do you do? Yeah, you know you

25:06

can't sit and have a conversation. Yeah,

25:08

there's a social anxiety think what Yeah,

25:12

that wouldn't even invent it. Yeah, you know we

25:14

first started rapping none

25:16

of those words will now by polarism

25:18

and you know, all that kind of stuff is like

25:22

it's almost like commonplace now yea.

25:24

If someone says I have anxiety, it's like, oh,

25:26

okay, just go take a nap. That's kind of

25:28

what it's like now, you know, because

25:31

it's so common. Yeah, but it's

25:33

it's and it may have always been just

25:35

no one knew right, like you see, and

25:37

people didn't want to look at it or talk about

25:40

it. And now people are more open,

25:43

luckily, because it's really because it's helpful

25:45

to others feeling it. We're not

25:47

alone, yep, you know, it's so

25:49

helpful to know that I'm not

25:51

the only person who feels this way all the time.

25:54

Yeah. It doesn't make it easier, no,

25:57

but but it's a little better. It's a

25:59

little just to be understood,

26:02

that's it. Yeah. But

26:06

here's another thing. A friend of mine

26:08

pointed out that when we talk about

26:10

isolation and certain

26:12

societies, they don't have

26:14

these things like

26:17

when you're like if

26:19

it's not a chemical thing, if it's a social

26:21

thing, Like if you're in a house with

26:24

ten other people your family

26:26

and you're all surviving, you don't have time

26:28

to have that yes, and you're faced

26:31

you you're faced with these

26:33

people, so you don't have a kind of like

26:35

the social kind of dwarfing.

26:40

And that's interesting to me, you know. And

26:43

also the success part of it is a key

26:45

piece of it too, because when

26:47

you're when

26:50

you suffer from depression, let's say, and

26:53

you feel like there's this whole in you.

26:55

You don't know what it is. You just know you feel bad,

26:59

but you have this dream I'm gonna I'm

27:01

gonna through music. I

27:04

see these people doing this, and I love this.

27:06

And if when I do that, the

27:09

hole's going to go away. Yeah, oh no,

27:12

it's that. But but at least during

27:14

that time you

27:16

have hope because you know, I'm

27:18

gonna work really hard because I want to feel better

27:20

than I feel now. And you do all

27:22

this work, and that hole is the thing that

27:24

allows you to have that drive

27:27

and perspective to

27:30

break through. And

27:32

then you break through and your dreams come

27:34

true, and the hole is exactly

27:37

the same, yes, and then your hope

27:39

it actually it works up a little

27:41

bit more absolutely because now now

27:45

what I was spending all my time to my

27:47

way of solving it, I

27:49

did it, and it didn't work at all. If

27:52

anything, as you said, maybe it's worse.

27:55

I can remember it's funny, and I'll

27:57

only remember this because they're

27:59

happy to be a phone call. If it wasn't for

28:01

this phone call, I would not remember this story.

28:05

But I had produced the first Beastie

28:07

Boys album. It came out and

28:09

it was It became

28:11

the number one album in the country. And

28:14

I remember my music

28:17

lawyer calling me and

28:19

he said, you have the number

28:21

one album and in the country. How do you

28:23

feel? And I said, I've

28:26

never fret worse in my whole life.

28:28

Yeah, And it had that call not happened,

28:30

I wouldn't remember. I wouldn't remember how I felt. But

28:34

in that moment, because of the call, that's

28:36

how I was feeling terrible.

28:39

Yeah, yeah,

28:42

yeah, that's yeah. And people

28:44

would think that that's the that's the best thing, Yeah,

28:47

the best thing to hear. But it has nothing to do with it.

28:49

It's like that's the other thing is like it's

28:52

a it's like a false until

28:55

it happens, you don't know. Because

28:57

we're hopeful, you know, something's

28:59

going to make it better. If

29:02

a dream comes true, that's gonna make it better.

29:04

Nope, or just to get

29:07

the acceptance

29:09

you think that this will get. You will get love,

29:11

you know what I mean, But

29:14

you also get everything else that comes with it too,

29:17

absolutely absolutely. Yeah.

29:19

In a way, in

29:22

success, it's more

29:24

isolating, very more lonely

29:26

making and less

29:28

community. And like we said, people treat

29:31

you differently, and it's

29:33

hard to have regular conversation, not because

29:35

you don't want to it just it's

29:37

like the surrounding the whole world has changed.

29:40

It's a bad plight. Yeah. The

29:43

more, the more, the more higher you climb,

29:45

the more success that you have, you

29:48

become more and more isolated. You spend

29:50

more times in hotels. Yeah, you

29:53

spend less time around people. Yes,

29:56

and your writing kind

29:58

of goes to ship too. Yeah when that

30:00

starts to happen too, because your life becomes about

30:02

being on Yeah, it's just not really interesting

30:05

to talk about. Yeah. And another one like once you're like

30:07

I'm sad, you know, because I'm successful

30:10

alone and hear that ship no, or back on the road

30:12

again, like yeah, being

30:14

on the bends who just would tour forever?

30:17

And all the songs were about being

30:19

on the road because that's all they had to talk about. Yeah,

30:22

and that and I don't I don't like it, man. So

30:24

you know, I try to. I

30:26

try to do things and I really get enjoyment.

30:29

Like I don't have bodyguards.

30:31

Man, I'm

30:33

my only child, so I go everywhere by myself. You

30:36

know. I actually love to go to the laundromat

30:38

and wash clothes like I love that, man,

30:40

Like I love being in

30:42

as much in the

30:44

most normal place I can be yeah,

30:47

you know, because even if it's I

30:50

mean, I could buy washing and dry and wash it at

30:52

home, but it's something about going

30:55

to the laundromat and sitting social.

30:58

Yeah, it is social, you know what I mean.

31:00

Absolutely, it's something. It's something

31:02

about it. There's some I

31:04

don't know, you may know it. There's some blues

31:06

artists that I think he wrote a lyric

31:10

that the song kind

31:12

of story went that he had gotten successful and

31:14

now he's going to have to hire a

31:16

woman to break his heart to be able to write

31:19

blue songs, you know what

31:21

I mean. It's kind of like and that's a

31:23

weird place to be, yeah, you know.

31:25

And that's why I love new artists. That's why I

31:27

love going to these ship clubs and watching

31:29

fands because I remember that feeling

31:32

like and I know what it feels like to not be known

31:35

and when you're fighting to be known, yes, and

31:38

when you're doing it because you just

31:40

love it. Yeah, that's a different that's

31:42

a different things, and that

31:45

it's not it's not. Nobody

31:48

at those clubs are punching the clock trying

31:50

to get it done. Mmm.

31:53

They gotta get up in the morning and go

31:55

to their real work. And

31:58

when you think about it, that when

32:00

when that cycle of being on the road all the time,

32:03

when that turns into a job. It's

32:05

a grueling job, yeah, it is, especially

32:08

all the travel, flying. It's

32:12

it's exhausting, it's

32:15

lonely, and all of it is

32:17

for this, like you know, an hour or

32:19

two or and it's

32:21

kind of exciting because people like it. But

32:24

even that, when you've done the same thing

32:26

for a while, starts feeling like what am I doing? Yeah?

32:28

I did this last night. Yeah, I

32:31

knew it became

32:33

a problem for me, like years years ago.

32:36

I mean this had to be like fifteen twenty years

32:39

ago. I was on stage doing something, some

32:41

song. I don't remember what it was, but

32:44

I've done it so much that

32:46

it was kind of just in my scan and I'm

32:48

you know, going through it and I'm in it. Yeah,

32:51

but I was thinking about what am

32:53

I going to eat tonight, get back to the hotel,

32:56

and I and that thought. Yeah,

32:58

it freaked me out because it

33:01

was like I was on overdrive, yeah, but

33:03

I was somewhere else, yeah, autopilot. Yeah,

33:05

it was just going on yeah yeah yeah

33:08

yeah. And at that point,

33:10

I think you just as the artist, I mean of course you have

33:12

responsibilities you gotta do. But you gotta find

33:14

a way to shake yourself up. You gotta find a

33:16

way to change it. And

33:21

I hadn't toured in ages man like,

33:24

and I said, if I ever were to get on stage

33:26

again in that kind of way, like it would

33:28

be in the shittiest clubs ever.

33:31

Yeah, you know, it would be like

33:33

like I want to perform at all the flea markets

33:35

around the world, you know what I mean?

33:38

Like, yeah,

33:40

like it's just just to feel

33:42

something different. Yeah. Another

33:45

thing too. The more success you have, too, seems

33:47

like the further the crowd gets from you. Absolutely,

33:50

so by the time you get the festivals, yeah, they

33:52

are twenty feet back. Yeah, you can't

33:54

even touch nobody. No, you can't, and

33:57

you can't like even see really faces

33:59

lights on you, and it's just sort

34:01

of like a mass of people.

34:04

It's like they talk about that. It's like if if

34:06

one person gets in an

34:08

accident gets killed, you

34:11

really feel it because of the personality the

34:13

person. But when you read you know that ten

34:15

thousand people just died because of an earthquake,

34:17

it's different because it

34:20

it becomes faithless. The more

34:23

the more people, the more faithless

34:26

it becomes and you

34:28

don't have that connection. It's

34:31

not that one person in the front row. Yeah.

34:34

Yeah, it's going good.

34:37

Yeah yeah, that exchange. Yeah.

34:40

We'll be back with more Rix Conversation with Andre

34:43

after the break. We're

34:48

back with more RIX Conversation with Andre. Three

34:50

thousand. What type of meditation

34:53

practice do you do? None. I

34:57

started messing around with bay

35:00

clarinet, and it's

35:02

a breathing kind of thing, you know, and

35:04

so I would hope to My

35:06

goal is to learn how to so

35:09

that I can get my practice in every day, to

35:11

incorporate practicing

35:14

and meditation, like with the breathing

35:18

in some kind of way, to make it one kind

35:21

of thing, you know, so you

35:23

know, I start my day

35:26

that way. Beautiful. How did

35:28

you pick that instrument? I

35:31

was messing around with saxophone

35:33

a little bit because

35:36

listening to John cold Tran, So one day I was like, I'm

35:39

kind of one of those let me well, let me just try

35:41

it, let me just pick it up kind of person. Yeah. So

35:43

I didn't get lessons to anything. I just I

35:45

immediately had an armature that worked and

35:48

so I could get sound out of it.

35:50

And then that moved me, and

35:53

then I read the Cold Train played clarinet

35:56

first before he played saxophone,

35:59

and so that made me try

36:02

clarinet. And so I

36:04

had the normal B flat clarinet.

36:07

And one day it was in New York on

36:09

tour or something, and I went into this

36:11

used instrument shop and I

36:13

saw a bass clarinet, US bass clarinet, and

36:16

I just got it. Yeah, and I

36:19

never I never went back to the normal clarinet.

36:21

The bass clarinet is where it sat for me, like the

36:23

deep tones, like I feel

36:26

those tones, you know. And

36:30

I'm in a place where I've

36:32

never been disciplined with anything, and that's one

36:34

of my biggest issues. I've always kind of just been so

36:37

wired and just trying everything that I've never

36:39

been great at anything. That

36:42

it's important for me to try to really

36:45

really dedicate

36:47

myself to something, to lessons now.

36:49

So I'm trying to take a little bit more seriously.

36:52

YEA, not for any goal anything,

36:54

just to yeah,

36:57

to practice and to be able to play whatever

36:59

here basically play whatever I wanna whatever,

37:03

Yeah, play whatever I'm hearing in my head, or really

37:06

to play along with anything. That's

37:08

one of my biggest goals to be able to if someone's

37:10

in a park, singing something I

37:12

can just come on in and

37:14

just mess around. Yeah,

37:16

that's those are like my biggest

37:19

goals now. Our friend of mine was laughing

37:21

at me because I was like, you

37:24

know, with with the history of what

37:26

we've done so far, my goals

37:28

are not grand at all anymore. My goals

37:31

are like, I want to be able to go to a park and

37:34

just play. Yeah, I do it sometimes,

37:36

and I go to the beach sometimes, just play, go

37:38

to a park. I'm not great, but yeah, I want

37:40

to be able to

37:43

to soothe, you know, I want to be able to just kind

37:45

of serenade or soothe by

37:47

playing beautiful who who's ever

37:49

around? You know, beautiful

37:52

m It

37:54

felt like there was another

37:59

influence in

38:02

your in your old work that wasn't

38:05

coming from hip hop. Oh

38:08

yeah, most of my influences early, so

38:11

you have to you have to like with with outcasts.

38:14

It's kind of like even before we had

38:16

our first album, I remember there were times in the Dungeon

38:18

like big shit, let's paint

38:21

our faces man, and just let's do

38:23

like this kind of rockish kind of sound that's

38:25

not hip hop at all, and then we go du rap.

38:28

Like it was always searching for other things.

38:30

Yeah, And I think that comes from

38:33

the community once again, like because

38:35

Dallas Austin was doing alternative things. Yeah,

38:38

Joy had came into town, she was doing alternative

38:40

things, like she had brought the circus in the town, and

38:42

so all those influences and we were we

38:45

were kids, so we got we we actually got to

38:47

see Kurt Cobain perform on TV like

38:49

we were kids. But yeah, and

38:52

I think, uh, and influences

38:54

so much in a certain way. So those

39:00

those acts were

39:02

really really really like influence,

39:05

even like Raging as a machine, like I wouldn't

39:07

have I wouldn't have done bombs with a back that if it wasn't

39:09

for Raging inst a machine. Wow, Because

39:12

I felt urgency in their music. So I was like,

39:14

how can I add urgency to

39:16

what we're doing? Yes, it doesn't

39:18

sound like rage against the machine, no, but energetically

39:21

yes yes. So you could playing back

39:23

to back at the party and the

39:25

same dancing would continue. It was

39:27

it's the energy. Yeah. And

39:29

I tell any musician, you

39:31

know, when I meet people on the street, like

39:33

well, what advice could could you give

39:36

me? I was like, well, you have all the answers, like you

39:38

you have it the only thing I could say

39:40

is listen to everything

39:42

outside of your genre. Yes, a

39:45

lot of times it'll help your genre. Yes,

39:47

you know in some type of way. You know, because if everybody's

39:50

kind of just listen to the exact

39:52

same thing, it kind of gets like incession was

39:54

a little maybe you

39:56

know, but you get it gets more. Say though,

39:59

yes, this is the way to it's

40:01

those combinations that make

40:03

it new. Yeah.

40:04

Yeah, But the beauty

40:07

of it is is the new could be made

40:09

by anybody, you know what I mean, It doesn't. You

40:11

don't have to be new to make new. That's

40:14

a good argument, it's true, because

40:16

it's really more about it's the sensibility,

40:20

you know, Like when Radiohead made kid A that

40:24

was new Radiohead. Radiohead

40:28

transformed from the band that

40:30

they were, And when I first heard it, I loved Radiohead,

40:32

and when I first heard it, I was little

40:34

taken aback. The same thing happened first

40:36

time I heard eight O eights. Yeah, it's

40:38

like, I don't do I want

40:40

to hear Kanye singing? I don't know, Like this

40:43

is not why I listened to Kanye. And

40:46

it took a minute. And often those

40:48

are the things that you

40:50

come around to liking the best. It's

40:53

like when the first time you hear it's like you don't necessarily

40:55

have the

40:58

the framework understand,

41:02

especially if you're expecting something different.

41:04

So that's oh so that's a that's an

41:07

important point because with the new artists,

41:09

you're not expecting anything, so

41:12

there's no expectation, right, So

41:14

when someone that you like what

41:16

they do makes a left

41:18

turn, sometimes that's really

41:21

jarring. Yes, yeah,

41:23

I'm familiar man some people. Yeah,

41:26

but then it takes a minute and you realize,

41:29

oh, like in both of those cases. Now,

41:31

when I listen back today and it oates

41:33

or two of my favorites, but maybe

41:36

not the first time I heard them, Yeah, take

41:38

a minute. Absolutely. When

41:40

we were making Needs, it's a lot of I

41:44

knew a lot of people were not gonna like it, but

41:48

we loved it, and I knew that probably

41:50

people come around because it's really good. It's

41:53

just not what they're expecting, right, And when you

41:55

give someone something that they're not expecting, that

41:57

the first instinct is that's not

41:59

what I wanted. Yeah,

42:02

yeah,

42:05

that's interesting. You say you don't have to

42:07

be new to make new. I agree, Yeah,

42:10

you know, because I've been making music for a long time.

42:13

I've learned a lot of stuff along the way. But I don't

42:15

let that get in the way.

42:17

I don't let that impede the process of

42:20

making something new. Right. Are

42:24

there any examples of like

42:28

bands or groups

42:30

that have made new when

42:32

they've been around for a long time, Yes,

42:35

and not not in your kid was

42:37

the first one that I thought of. But but they

42:39

but that was still a trajectory of it was the

42:41

band, but it was they were the

42:45

bends was incredible. Okay

42:47

Computer was you know,

42:49

considered, They're like that's there, but

42:52

it was going that way, or even with Okay Computer,

42:54

it was going that way, but kid A was not continuing

42:57

that. It was just left turn

42:59

and a lot of people didn't like it, me included

43:02

at first first time I heard it. Then

43:04

they were on Saturday Night Live and asked one performed some

43:06

of those songs live, and then was my first

43:08

cruise like, oh

43:10

I see what this is now? Like I couldn't really

43:12

get it from the record at first, and then when

43:14

I saw that, it helped

43:18

me bridge my expectation

43:22

versus this beautiful new thing. Yeah,

43:26

I struggle with that. Man, I struggle

43:28

with the same too. You remember, like Paul

43:31

Simon was already Paul Simon.

43:34

He had been Simon and Garfuncle and

43:37

made a load of hits as Paul Simon.

43:39

Yeah, some might have thought he was

43:41

sort of on the down swing, and

43:44

then he made Graceland and that

43:46

was one of his biggest albums. And

43:49

in the case of we were talking about the Beatles

43:51

earlier, Sergeant Pepper, that

43:53

was the case. The reason it's called Sergeant Pepper's

43:55

Lonely Hearts Club Band was I

43:58

think it was Paul who had the idea of the

44:01

Beatles are so big and so familiar, to

44:03

make something new. Let's become

44:05

a different band, and let's let's

44:08

play the characters of Sergeant

44:10

Pepper and his Lonely Hearts called band. What

44:13

do they sound like? And now we're

44:15

free? And it's just and

44:17

it's both, and it was both even for them

44:19

as writers. It was a

44:21

way just to stimulate, stimulate

44:24

writing. Yeah,

44:27

it's an exercise sometimes I give artists

44:29

to do is to and this

44:32

might be a fun one for you, is pick

44:34

an artist, pick one of your favorite artists, could

44:36

be whoever it is, could be Prince, could be

44:38

whoever. And let's

44:41

say you had a chance for

44:43

to write a song for Prince to do, and

44:46

write a song with the

44:49

idea of this is a song I'm gonna

44:52

get Prince to sing, yeah, because it would

44:54

be completely different than what you'd write for yourself. Yeah,

44:56

No, exactly the song Prototype,

45:00

I actually wrote it in mind for Janet

45:02

Jackson to sing. I wanted to just submit for her

45:04

to sing that song. She probably don't even

45:06

know it, but Prototype was

45:10

written in that way. And

45:12

once I lay down, you know, Demo, it's

45:15

like, uh, it feels better. It feels really

45:18

you know if I did it. Yeah, and

45:21

another song She's alive

45:24

on the Love Below, like I really wanted to need

45:26

a Baker to sing it, yea. And so

45:29

it's my bad version of a need a Bakery.

45:31

And I know it doesn't sound like it, but that's

45:34

kind of That's kind of how how it

45:36

is. This

45:40

is one of those conversations I could have gone on forever,

45:43

and in fact it did. Rick and Andre

45:45

continued talking about how Andre played the

45:47

flute for random Starbucks customers before the

45:49

interview, about mystical experiences,

45:51

their shared love of James Blake, and so

45:54

much more. But this is where we'll have to leave

45:56

it for now. Are sin serious? Thanks to

45:58

Andrew two thousand for his music and his words.

46:01

We'll be back on Thursday with an episode from Brittany

46:03

Howard of the Alabama Shakes, and then

46:05

Broken Record is going on a short hiatus, but

46:08

when we back up in January with episodes of the

46:10

podcast, and I'm really excited to share Ozzy

46:12

Osbourne, was Sharon Bob Were, Kenny

46:15

Beats, Booker TV and Gez Nick

46:17

Lowe, The XX and more for

46:19

now. If you'd like to hear a curate in playlist of Andre's

46:21

music or any of our other past shows, check us

46:23

out at Broken Record podcast dot com.

46:26

You can also sign up for a behind the scenes newsletter

46:28

while are you there. Broken Records producing

46:30

help from Jason Gambrel, Neil Lobell, and Lea Rose

46:33

for Pushkin Industries. Our

46:35

theme music is by the great producer Kenny Beats. I'm

46:37

justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.