0:15

Pushkin. Hey

0:20

everyone, today we're sharing one of Rick

0:22

Rubin's most intimate conversations

0:24

ever Unbroken record with Red Hot

0:26

Chili Peppers guitarist John Frushante.

0:30

Rick last spoke to John back in April when the

0:32

Peppers were getting ready to release Unlimited

0:34

Love, their first record with Rushante

0:36

in sixteen years. If

0:38

you haven't heard Rick series of individual interviews

0:41

with the band, I highly recommend you go back

0:43

and listen. Those conversations

0:45

are a testament to the band's deep, soulful

0:48

connection and their unique creative partnership

0:50

that has proven time and again to soar

0:52

as a result of Frushonte's songwriting

0:55

and gorgeous guitar work, and

0:57

Frushante rejoining the band again has

1:00

reinvigorated the group. On April,

1:02

first Unlimited Love debut at number

1:04

one in the US and fifteen

1:06

other countries. In July, the

1:08

band anounced the release of a second Rick Rubin

1:10

produced album that's out today, Return

1:13

of the Dream Canteen. On today's

1:15

episode, we'll here John Frushonte talk about

1:17

the making of Blood Sugar, Sex Magic and

1:20

how has contributions on slower, more

1:22

melodic songs like Under the Bridge and Breaking

1:24

the Girl helped expand the Chili peppers

1:27

funk punk sound. John also

1:29

talks candidly about the dark, drug addicted

1:32

years that followed the intense success of

1:34

Blood Sugar, and he explains

1:36

how he was able to finally get sober and

1:38

rejoin the Chili Peppers to record their classic

1:41

commercial comeback album Californication.

1:46

This is broken record liner notes

1:49

for the digital Age. I'm justin Richmond.

1:51

Here's Rick Rubin and John Frushonte

1:54

And just a heads up, this is part one

1:56

of a two part conversation, so keep

1:58

your eye on our feed for part two soon.

2:02

What's happened to man? Hey? Rag? How

2:04

are you feeling good? How are you good?

2:07

What's life on the road like these days?

2:10

It's been really good. Yeah, we're in a

2:12

great like playing has been really fun

2:14

and you know, it's it's a different

2:17

kind of lifestyle, just like everything

2:19

is aimed towards being able to get up on stage

2:21

and do that. And it took me like about a month and

2:23

a half pretty much the whole European

2:25

tour. Every time I walked out into one

2:28

of those stadiums to play, I

2:30

was shocked about the amount of people, you

2:32

know, like, like I thought we had played stadiums

2:35

before in Europe, and now I realized we hadn't.

2:38

Maybe we'd played some festival, we hadn't played

2:40

anything that looked like that. Wow, every

2:42

night, that amount of energy coming from

2:44

the people and putting

2:47

out what you feel like you have to put out. It's just

2:51

every day when I wake up, I can't imagine going

2:53

up on stage and in front of

2:55

that many people and doing that. But you just

2:57

gradually build yourself towards it throughout

2:59

the day, and I don't know, it's just a

3:02

real different state of mind. But I enjoy. I enjoy

3:04

practicing all the time. That's the main thing I do,

3:06

is just practice and the energy of

3:09

the audience. Like, can

3:11

you use the energy coming from the audience

3:14

to channel that into what you're

3:16

doing. Yeah, it seems like that happens.

3:19

That's what I'm preparing myself to take place,

3:21

because what I play when I'm practicing,

3:24

it's not nearly as intense. Ever, no

3:26

matter what I warm up with, it's not nearly as

3:28

intense as what I do once I'm up there.

3:30

It's just like, I feel

3:33

like it's something about the people and the

3:35

general feeling of happiness that brings

3:38

that out of me. And you

3:40

can practice all you want, but there's really no practice

3:42

for doing that other than doing it, you

3:45

know, because there's no way to simulate it. So

3:47

yeah, I feel like I'm just warming up. I'm looking

3:49

forward to next year and stuff.

3:52

Yeah, you know, so, I think the last

3:54

time we talked, we were starting to talk about

3:57

playing on albums and

4:00

we got through Mother's Milk and

4:02

then we got distracted.

4:04

It never kept going exactly. So

4:06

Mother's Milk. It was not a great experience for you.

4:09

And was that I can't remember now. Was that your first

4:11

time in a proper recording

4:13

studio recording or no, Well,

4:16

the first time was when we did the song Taste the Pain

4:18

and that went really well, Like did it

4:20

in one take and everything, you know, went

4:23

really smoothly. Yeah. Michael Binhorn

4:25

was just hyped when we were making the record, and

4:28

he was taking on a lot of pressure.

4:30

I think he had put a lot of pressure on himself that it's

4:32

got to be the greatest album ever and all this stuff,

4:34

and he definitely imposed

4:38

that on me and me

4:41

especially because I

4:43

think he felt like I was young and you know,

4:45

he could really guide me and stuff

4:48

like this, and you

4:50

know, so the album felt forced. I've,

4:52

you know, since doing interviews recently, I've

4:55

kind of reflected on that period, especially

4:58

once we got on tour, because once we started touring

5:01

with Chad after the record had come out

5:03

and stuff, it really we

5:05

really had a thing. Like I think even a couple

5:07

of years later, I didn't appreciate what

5:10

that was. I was such

5:12

a fan of the band before I was in the

5:14

band that I thought of the magic

5:16

of that band really highly

5:19

with Helleo and Jack. But

5:21

I recently heard, just heard.

5:24

I listened to one song of us around

5:26

that time of the Mother's Milk tour, doing what

5:30

was usually our first song back then, the first song

5:32

they ever performed on stage out

5:34

in LA and Man, I

5:36

was like, wow, we were really good. I was like I

5:38

was because I always think I was bad

5:41

at that time, and I listened back to it

5:43

and I was like, Wow, we really had

5:45

something that that that that other band

5:47

didn't have, Like we had this very

5:49

intense energy, like there was something kind of

5:51

mellow in comparison about about

5:54

the previous band, Like we really

5:56

did play every note like it was going to be our last,

5:58

Like there was this passion and intensity, and

6:02

I don't know, considering that it was basically funk music

6:04

and that we were playing it that hard, I

6:07

just don't feel like there's ever only been anything

6:09

like it. And I even though I had an ego

6:12

about it at the time, I don't think I really

6:14

appreciated like how special

6:16

it was. And I think when I really

6:18

felt like I found myself, I kind of mellowed

6:21

out a bit, you know, and stopped pushing

6:23

myself on the music so much. And but

6:26

there really was something we had then in

6:28

eighty eight eighty nine that was I

6:31

guess, in particular eighty nine that was

6:33

really like powerful. I

6:35

saw you guys at the Greek Theater at that time and

6:37

it was mind blowing. Right

6:40

Yeah. That was the very last show of that

6:42

tour, So yeah, yeah. And

6:44

I think part of it also has

6:47

to do with Chad, because if you

6:49

think of what drummers and funk bands sound like,

6:51

like, you think about James Brown's drummers, they're

6:54

super groovy, but they played almost like

6:56

jazz, like, like very subdued

6:59

groovy but not loud. Yeah,

7:02

And Chad's rocking like

7:05

crazy, which is not your typical

7:08

funk drum right, But

7:10

he's got a he's got a good funk feel, you

7:13

know, it's incredible. It's a

7:15

great combination. Yeah, it's just

7:17

like there's this heaviness to it, but it's still

7:19

got this funk thing, but it's also got this extra

7:22

speed to it. And it was

7:24

just there's all four of us. It was

7:26

just like it was a real explosion

7:28

when we came out on stage and there was like,

7:31

I don't know, somehow it took me

7:33

like thirty three years to realize

7:36

to realize what that thing was we had. Because

7:38

there's other things about that period of time,

7:40

like I can be critical about myself

7:42

in the sense that I wasn't improvising

7:45

as much as I did after that,

7:47

Like my solos weren't as like

7:51

ever since then. You know, when

7:53

I play a solo, it's usually pretty

7:55

unique to that night. It's rare

7:57

that I do the same thing in the same

7:59

place twice, you know, And at

8:02

that time, I feel like I

8:04

wasn't ready to take

8:06

that risk. But that was part of the

8:08

intensity. It was so important to me that it

8:10

was maximum intensity all the time. When I

8:13

did start improvising, there was this feeling

8:15

of like indifference

8:17

to the outcome. Yeah, it feels

8:19

much it feels much riskier to do.

8:21

Yeah, it is, And like in

8:24

nineteen eighty nine, I energetically

8:26

like the energy was the main thing to me, and

8:29

like I couldn't afford to let that energy slip

8:31

at all the way I felt, you know. So

8:34

I'm I'm glad I went. I'm glad I

8:36

moved past that to being able to relax

8:38

and allow mistakes to happen

8:40

and allow allow myself to do

8:43

a solo that's not great in knowing

8:46

that like taking the same risk the next

8:48

time a great one might come. You

8:50

know. Yeah, it also makes sense

8:52

that because you were such a big fan of

8:54

the original lineup of the band and

8:57

knowing you're just a different person. It's,

9:00

you know, it's you always feel like how

9:02

do I fit in? You know, how do I step

9:05

up to this thing that I love so much?

9:07

It didn't it doesn't even really have to do with how

9:09

good of a guitar player you are, do you know what I mean? It's

9:11

like, those guys do this thing

9:14

that I love, and now

9:16

I get to do it. But it's

9:19

weird, you know, it's just weird. It's it's a weird

9:21

thing. No, it's really strange and Anthony

9:23

and Fleet. All my memories of seeing them

9:26

prior to my being in the band, including

9:29

had videotapes. I managed to get a hold

9:31

of of early live shows of Theirs and stuff

9:34

that I used to watch when I was, you know, fifteen,

9:36

sixteen, seventeen, and they and they

9:38

still have it to this day. They have this thing

9:41

that happens on stage and in a

9:44

way, they're kind of like that in life too. They

9:46

somehow simultaneously

9:49

appear to be trying very hard

9:51

and at the same time they

9:53

seem like they're kicking back and they really don't

9:55

care about the impression they make on anybody,

9:58

and they're there to be themselves. Like

10:01

there's this balance in

10:03

the persona of who they are

10:05

on stage that somehow has

10:08

this combination of a

10:10

careless, kind of relaxed,

10:12

I don't give a shit thing, and

10:15

I'm trying really hard at the same time

10:17

to be the best entertainer I can be up

10:19

here. It's a it's something. It's

10:22

yeah, it seems contradictory, and so

10:25

coming into it, I

10:27

think my first thought was that I was going to be as

10:29

crazy as them on stage, you know, like,

10:32

and I think possibly the reason I

10:34

didn't have that same balance is because

10:36

I think I cared a lot for the reason

10:38

that you're saying. You know, I

10:40

couldn't have that relaxed indifference.

10:43

That's this very cool sense that I used

10:46

to get from them on stage. For

10:48

me, if I was going to go up there and go crazy,

10:50

that's all it was was a guy going crazy. There

10:52

was no cool kickback aspect

10:54

to it. You know. It just wasn't

10:56

me being trying to be wild and crazy

10:59

like my it's not my personality

11:01

and it wasn't the best way for

11:03

me to serve the

11:06

overall chemistry of the group, you know. So

11:09

having a relaxed mental attitude to the performance

11:12

part, to the playing part, to everything

11:14

was what turned out to be best for everybody,

11:17

I think. But like I say, there was something

11:19

about the fact that I was just so all, you

11:22

know, all out

11:24

in that first couple of years that you

11:27

know, never got that back again

11:29

again, you know what I mean, Like, no, but that it's cool

11:31

and it's cool that that's a period of time, and that's

11:33

like you wouldn't change your diary entries

11:35

either, you know. It's like that's a moment in time and

11:37

that was then and now you get to do this

11:39

and it's great, and it's you know, it's different

11:42

versions of good. It's not like they're in

11:44

competition with each other. Yeah.

11:46

I remember I went to see Radiohead two nights in a

11:48

row at Radio City Musical, and

11:52

the first night it looked like Tom

11:54

York didn't want to be there and

11:56

he was just standing at the mic and

11:59

playing and singing and stone faced,

12:02

not moving perfectly

12:04

still, and it just felt like he

12:07

was just waiting for the show to end. And

12:09

then the next night, which was the last show

12:11

of the tour, he was

12:14

the most animated I've ever seen him,

12:16

Like it was the opposite person. Two

12:18

nights in a row, Yeah, and he was

12:20

running all over and happy. It. It

12:23

was fascinating to see. I've

12:25

had that same thing a few times on this

12:27

tour, Like I'm specifically DC to

12:30

Boston was the same thing as what you

12:33

just described, Like there's certain

12:35

nights where for some reason, I can't

12:37

put any physical energy into

12:39

the show, including just the normal sort of crouched

12:43

down, kind of leaning back kind

12:45

of stance

12:47

that's pretty normal for

12:50

Flee and I to play in. And Anthony

12:52

stands the same way too. It's just like I

12:54

can't even do that. I can just stand there perfectly

12:57

straight up and with my legs

12:59

straight and stand by

13:01

Chad and just walk up to the mic when it's time

13:03

to sing or press an effect and

13:06

walk back to Chad after that, and

13:08

just like I can't

13:10

look at the audience, I can't feel

13:12

anything. Probably the best

13:15

that ever comes out of my playing on a night like that

13:17

is a kind of intensity

13:20

that comes out of anger that I just focus

13:22

into the playing, and I can't

13:24

really enjoy it. But that's

13:27

probably if I listened back, I would imagine

13:29

that would be the redeeming part

13:31

of the show. Is just some sort of focus that

13:34

can come from being in a bad mood like that that I

13:36

can put into my lead playing in a certain way. But

13:39

if that happens, do

13:41

you always know it's like, oh, I had this argument

13:43

earlier with someone and that's it. Or

13:46

is it just like a feeling you wake up that way

13:48

and it's not related to anything

13:50

specific that you could point finger at. Yeah,

13:53

if I analyze it, I could have a theory, but

13:55

there's really like no way to know. There's

13:57

really no way to know. I sense it when I'm

13:59

walking towards the stage and when I'm on

14:01

stage. I realize it in

14:04

that moment that I'm first on stage and I realize,

14:07

Okay, I'm in one of those moods and I'm

14:09

not going to be able to get out of it, you know. And

14:12

the same thing happens to flee

14:14

or you know, but he has a different

14:16

way of handling it, like he might

14:18

go extra physically crazy to work

14:20

his way through it. For me, I don't.

14:23

I don't try to do that. I just uh

14:26

yeah, just stand there and get through it.

14:28

And I'm sure musically the show's great,

14:30

Like it's it's great either way. Maybe

14:33

I've got definitely when I've

14:35

had nights like that, Anthony'll give me

14:37

back some report like so and so said

14:39

that somebody who's seen us a lot of times.

14:42

So and so said it was the best show he's ever

14:44

seen of us. So you know, it's so

14:46

I'm I'm learning to just let

14:49

it be that way when it's a nice night like that,

14:51

and don't beat myself up about it while I'm on

14:53

stage or anything. And in my radio hit

14:55

example, I can't say one show

14:57

was better than Together. It was right. I was going to be interesting

15:00

to see how different it could be. Yeah,

15:03

yeah that so, yeah, the night following

15:05

the night that I'm thinking of in Boston, like

15:08

like it was the freest, most

15:10

loosest I could imagine feeling on

15:12

stage, like it was particularly like

15:15

one of the best shows of the tours. So sometimes

15:17

those maybe those nights are just to

15:19

remind myself to really be able

15:22

to feel it completely, because if you know,

15:24

if you felt good every night, you might never

15:26

feel particular high because

15:28

there isn't a load of balance it for granted.

15:30

Also, yeah, so there's something about that. And

15:33

it's like with meditation. You know, when you sit to

15:35

meditate. At the end of the meditation,

15:37

there is in a sense of sometimes we'll

15:39

say to ourselves or that was a good one, or that

15:41

wasn't a good one, and neither those are true.

15:44

It's like, yeah, it's if you sat

15:46

down to do it, you did it, and that's

15:48

all that matters. And then sometimes

15:50

the experience of it is euphoric,

15:53

and other times it feels like you don't go anywhere

15:55

and that's what it's

15:57

supposed to be that day to get to the next

15:59

one. It's just the path on the road,

16:02

you know. Yeah, yeah, it's a really

16:04

hard concept for people to understand and for you

16:06

to try to make yourself always remember,

16:08

is that like that there's not a good and bad

16:11

meditation, you know, It's it's

16:13

a hard thing to understand because when your head is

16:15

full of thoughts and you just

16:17

feel like this is not going well. But

16:23

yeah, you really never know. And I know it from history

16:25

of other bands too. I know, like certain

16:28

nights when somebody was you know, supposedly

16:31

like not in a good mood that night, and they played

16:33

really good. It was just different than how they

16:35

normally played, you know. So

16:37

I don't know, I'm trying not to be too judgmental

16:40

about it, but it's not as fun, that's

16:42

for sure. Yeah. So the band

16:44

was really rocking after Mother's Milk

16:46

Live and now

16:48

it's time to make the next album, and that's when we started

16:50

working together. And tell

16:52

me from your perspective, what was the experience like

16:55

of making Blood Sugar Sex Magic. Well,

16:57

pretty much right around that time

16:59

that we played at the Greek, I

17:01

guess we had. We took a couple of months

17:04

off, and during that couple of months

17:06

I really was And around

17:08

that time, I remember I ran

17:10

into you at Canters when we

17:13

weren't we didn't know who was going to produce the

17:15

record, and a lot of things were

17:17

lining up for me as a musician and as

17:19

a person right around that time, and

17:22

I just had I had some epiphanies

17:25

in terms of taking the direction of

17:28

my playing and my songwriting

17:30

in a different in a different direction.

17:33

We were so close by that point as

17:35

a as a band and as friends.

17:38

I didn't feel anymore like I had to prove

17:41

myself or to be to

17:43

be what my idea of a Chili Pepper

17:46

was or anything. I was

17:48

confident that in my

17:51

place in the band, and I

17:53

felt like I I wanted

17:55

to try just being

17:59

myself, even though I've

18:01

been gradually being more and more myself

18:04

as a person and as a musician as that tour went

18:06

on. But around that

18:08

time, I was having all these

18:10

realizations just listening to music

18:12

that was that was my favorite

18:14

music at the time, and that was different

18:17

from what the band was always

18:19

listening to together, because

18:21

we were always we were always listening to like

18:23

Curtis Mayfield, the Meters Signed

18:26

The Family, Stone zz Top,

18:28

the Jesus Christ Superstar

18:30

Soundtrack, like different, different little

18:32

things that we would listen to together. That and

18:35

even at home, that was a lot of what I'd been listening

18:37

to that Fishbone, you know, like, and so

18:40

I just started now the

18:42

tour was over and everything, and I was living in

18:44

this house, living in the in

18:46

the Hollywood Hills for the first time, and

18:49

and just having really strong feelings

18:51

listening to things like The Velvet

18:53

Underground and television and

18:57

Peter Gabriel era Genesis,

18:59

and I was realizing that, like that, a

19:01

lot of power can come from

19:03

from not hitting the strings super hard all

19:06

the time, you know, from from not filling

19:08

up all thiss with notes, from leaving

19:10

big spaces listening to that guitarist

19:13

from Bow Wow Wow, and listening to

19:15

how how spacious is playing was

19:17

and how well it supported the bass. I've

19:19

been a fan of them forever, but just hadn't

19:21

specifically wanted to play like that.

19:23

And so I was really

19:26

starting to realize, like how

19:29

much music was starting to really

19:31

produce these intense feelings inside

19:33

me. That that period only really lasted

19:35

for a few years where I really

19:37

I had a kind of a synesthesia

19:40

where I could oftentimes it

19:42

was seeing, but it was something in

19:44

between seeing and hearing in

19:46

my brain that if I put

19:48

on a record, the feeling was produced. If

19:50

I put the needle back, the same exact feeling

19:53

was produced again, and it was like

19:55

watching a movie or something. So

19:57

certain records were bringing up those

19:59

feelings really intensely, or

20:02

that bringing up that phenomena,

20:04

and so those were the things I focused on. Captain Beefheart

20:07

was a real big one for me at the time that

20:09

was producing I think more of those types

20:12

of sensations than anything else

20:14

was. So started writing things

20:18

because I knew it Flee and Anthony's taste so well,

20:20

and I knew the breadth of it, and I knew

20:22

their open mindedness. Like I

20:25

was still trying to make stuff that I thought they would

20:27

like, as I still do today, but

20:29

I was coming from an angle that they weren't going

20:31

to expect, you know, And so

20:33

like that, Breaking the Girl's Song was

20:35

one of the first things that I wrote

20:38

before we ever started rehearsing, and Funky

20:41

Monk's song was one that

20:44

I sort of collaborated

20:46

with Anthony. He was playing the guitar

20:48

part, but it was it wasn't

20:51

really the guitar part. It was just one finger and he

20:53

was hitting all the strings and he was going bum bum

20:55

bum bum bum bum bum bum bum

20:57

bum bum bum bum.

20:59

And so I took that basic rhythm and made a

21:01

thing out of it. And power

21:04

of Equality I think was the basic

21:06

riff for that was something I came up with early.

21:09

And it was just like I was really

21:11

starting to understand how to get power

21:13

out of simplicity and

21:17

wasn't trying to compete with Flea as

21:19

far as being busy and stuff like

21:21

that. It was one of those things where I

21:23

finally had it through my head like Flea's allowed

21:26

to be busy somehow, Like he can be

21:28

busy and not sound like he's showing off. If

21:30

I do it, it sounds like I'm eating into

21:32

everybody else's space. You know. Was

21:35

appreciating stuff like led Zeppelin, where

21:37

you noticed Jimmy Page is playing, He's

21:39

he gives so much space to the drums. He's

21:42

often not playing. He'll often

21:44

hold a note and leave it to allow the snare

21:46

drum to be the maximum

21:49

size that it can be. And so,

21:52

yeah, it was putting all those things together in

21:55

my head and that having

21:57

that synesthesia thing, and so

21:59

when we started rehearsing, just everything was falling

22:01

into place like magic and yeah, I had

22:04

that talk with you. It canters

22:07

and I became really psyched about the I of you

22:09

producing us, and we all talked about it, and

22:12

that's what everybody wanted to do. And the

22:14

real exciting thing that we

22:16

all noticed right off the bat was that

22:19

you were the opposite of what Michael Beinhorn

22:21

had been. You. You you weren't

22:23

putting any pressure on us. You

22:26

your skill of listening was apparent immediately

22:28

you were. You were there to listen, and you

22:31

had no thought to impose yourself on

22:34

the music or the direction at all. Like

22:36

you spoke when there was something

22:39

you had to say, and you were

22:41

silent the rest of the time. And it

22:43

was really inspiring to us because that in

22:46

a way, that not pushing yourself on things.

22:48

That's exactly what I had come to right around

22:50

that time when I ran into Incannters, was

22:53

like, Wow, like I

22:55

don't need to force myself on the music.

22:57

I can. I can let music happen without

23:00

proposing to attack it, you

23:02

know. And me me playing that

23:04

way made Flee sound better

23:07

and that inspired him and he backing

23:10

off and not playing quite as busy himself,

23:13

and we all just got really into listening

23:16

to each other and supporting each

23:18

other, and so it

23:20

was neat. It was like that time, I guess

23:22

in nineteen ninety we really started

23:25

to realize what

23:27

we had as a band and what the chemistry

23:30

was that was completely separate,

23:33

you know, like where in nineteen eighty nine

23:35

maybe it was just a more energetic,

23:38

you know, more powerful version of the same

23:40

thing. Like this felt like something that

23:42

was unique to us. And

23:45

not to say that Jack and Hollel didn't have a huge

23:47

influence still on the basic parameters of

23:50

what we were doing, but we

23:52

had fallen into a thing where we were realizing

23:54

who we were as a as a group,

23:56

and you being

23:59

there just helped to solidify

24:01

it and support it. And every

24:03

time you had an idea, it felt like something

24:06

that had to be said. And that's what I

24:08

was trying to do with my play, was like, if

24:11

you don't have anything to say, just play one note,

24:13

and if you hear that a second

24:15

note needs to be added, then play a second note,

24:18

you know. And seemed to me

24:20

that that's that's how your contributions

24:23

when everything you did made a huge

24:25

difference to the overall

24:28

thing, and a lot of it was about

24:30

creating space. You know, a

24:32

lot of a lot of your ideas had to do

24:34

with with like

24:37

we were all being more conscious of the

24:39

space that we were creating between each

24:41

other's instruments and each other's notes, and

24:44

you emphasized that that same

24:46

thing, like telling

24:48

me not to play for a whole verse,

24:51

or telling you know, Chad

24:53

to lay out for this part, or Flee to lay out for

24:55

this part, or everybody to do a

24:57

complete silent pause right here. You know,

25:00

Like all those kind of ideas were mind

25:02

blowing for us at the time. There were things we never

25:04

would have thought of, you know. And

25:07

and your whole drum machine what

25:10

I perceived at the time, your experience

25:12

with drum machines, because I don't know how had you worked

25:14

with a lot of drummers at that point. You had,

25:17

well, mostly drum machines, right, yeah,

25:19

so it mostly programmed everything. Yeah,

25:21

So it was really neat, like

25:23

you were when you were helping Chad with a kick

25:25

drum pattern or whatever, and like it

25:28

really seemed like it was this drum machine

25:30

mentality going into a real drummer,

25:33

and it was. It was really

25:35

inspiring, and it felt really fresh and new,

25:38

you know, and all

25:41

that stuff was really inspiring in that period

25:43

of time of writing that record, I think

25:46

of as being like the happiest time

25:48

of being in the band, you know,

25:51

in that first period. That's

25:53

great. I can remember being at the alley one

25:55

time exactly this story told

25:58

I can't remember what song it was, but I remember saying,

26:00

and I can't remember who I suggested

26:02

it to, is like, Okay, not everybody

26:05

has to play from the beginning of the song. What's

26:07

it like if he lays out

26:09

until the chorus or John lays out till the course,

26:11

Let's try. What was it like if we lay out to the

26:13

second verse? What does it do? Let's hear it? Yeah,

26:16

And just like thinking about it, and I didn't have a idea

26:19

of what would work or not. It was just a way

26:21

of thinking of how can we create more

26:23

space and how can we do

26:26

things that allow

26:29

the material to develop without

26:32

having to keep adding more things later,

26:34

you know, like like if you take something away in

26:36

the beginning, then when the

26:39

normal third instrument comes in, it

26:42

feels like an event and we haven't had to add

26:44

anything. We did it by taking something away.

26:46

And I remember I remember

26:48

having that conversation. It felt like it was a big

26:50

deal at the time because it whatever

26:53

thing we were trying it on it worked. It was like, oh,

26:55

this is a new tool in the bag

26:57

of tricks of things that can work. You know. Really,

27:00

and again, I think I'm

27:04

assuming that your experience producing

27:06

hip hop was an influence on it

27:08

because of the constant

27:10

muting and un muting that takes place when you're

27:12

making that kind of music. It was absolutely

27:15

It was basically like you were muting the guitar for

27:17

the first verse and saving it for the second

27:19

verse. You know. Yeah,

27:21

Like we were all conscious that that

27:23

was where you were coming from, and it was so neat to

27:26

hear those ideas being applied to a

27:28

rock band, you know, like and

27:30

yeah, it just made us think in a way, it just wouldn't

27:32

never have occurred to us. We write the verse, that's what we

27:35

play in the verse, you know. We think of ourselves as a

27:37

unit. We don't think of ourselves as like separate.

27:40

So it was it

27:42

was really neat to hear how how

27:44

space could move

27:46

things along. And I and I wound up needing

27:49

to do less overdubs on that album as

27:51

a result of exactly what you're saying,

27:53

Like, I've often looked back and go like, how

27:55

did I get away with doing so few overdubs,

27:57

and still the songs feel like they developed

27:59

from beginning to end. And yeah, I think it's the arrangements

28:03

absolutely. Yeah,

28:05

we have to take a quick break and then we'll be back

28:07

with more of Rick Rubin's conversation with

28:10

John Frushante. We're

28:15

back with Rick Rubin and John Frushante.

28:19

I remember we were

28:21

again. I don't remember which songs were when,

28:24

but we had gotten to the point where it seemed

28:26

like we were ready to make an album, and then

28:29

there was some record

28:31

label stuff going on where

28:33

we weren't allowed to go into the studio and

28:36

ended up writing for probably close to another

28:38

year, So there was already an album's

28:40

worth of material that had things

28:43

been normal, we probably would have recorded, and

28:46

then instead we used that time to just write a bunch

28:48

of more songs than Again. I don't remember which ones came

28:50

earlier, which ones came late, but I know a

28:52

bunch of good ones came late too, you know, I think

28:54

there were good ones on both sides. Yeah,

28:57

we decided that there was no

28:59

way we were going to be on EMI anymore

29:02

because they were taking too

29:04

much control away from the band, like

29:07

editing the record without

29:10

consulting us. The mix

29:12

was done without consulting us. We

29:15

didn't We never approved any mixes, putting

29:17

things out without asking us. Whatever it

29:19

is, twelve inches or whatever, just like I

29:22

guess we hadn't noticed because the label

29:24

just hadn't cared about the band in

29:26

the first few albums, so nobody had noticed

29:29

that we didn't have artistic finals

29:31

say. And so we

29:34

really wanted to be with a label that trusted

29:36

us and was going to allow us to be ourselves

29:39

and allow us to have artistic finals say.

29:41

And it turned

29:43

out there were several who were willing to give us

29:45

that, and so it

29:47

was hard for somebody to talk m

29:50

I out of letting into letting us go. But

29:52

Mo Austen made a deal with them and made

29:55

a deal with us, and that was the label that we felt

29:57

comfortable with. And we

30:00

really liked him, you know himself.

30:03

Even when we had decided at one point not to go

30:05

with Warner Brothers. He made a point of calling each

30:07

person in the band and saying

30:10

some really nice things, and that was what did

30:12

it. We were just like, Okay, this

30:14

is a really warm, sweet guy here. Yeah,

30:17

you know, and he always was the whole

30:19

my entire you know, I got to work with

30:21

him for I don't know, twenty something years and

30:24

never a bad moment, never

30:27

a bad moment. Yeah,

30:29

yeah, you know, he was great and so

30:31

so yeah, so we we took

30:33

a couple of months off. At one point, I remember

30:36

from from the rehearsing writing process,

30:38

fleet did my own private Idaho.

30:40

Yeah. But I think even during that time,

30:42

maybe like Anthony might have and I might have written,

30:45

I could have lied at that time, which

30:48

came from a very real experience

30:50

a girl he really liked

30:52

didn't want to be with him. And we drove

30:55

around all day talking about it. Drove

30:57

to the bank and it was a rainy day and we were just

30:59

having a conversation about it. And

31:01

I'd been recording stuff on my four track and

31:04

with a sort of fingerpicking style

31:07

on the acoustic guitar, but oftentimes

31:09

putting wild, crazy guitar solos

31:12

on top of them. So we'd been

31:14

having this conversation all day. I

31:16

guess I thought it would be cool to do something

31:18

like this four track stuff I'm doing, which is the stuff

31:20

that later came out on your label. That's the music,

31:23

the four track music I'm talking about. And

31:26

I was like, we should write a song about

31:28

this thing that Anthony's going

31:30

through, but in the style of this

31:32

stuff I've been recording on my four track, and

31:35

we did it that night. We recorded, or I

31:37

think we came up with a

31:39

basic idea for the for the music,

31:42

and then and Anthony wrote some

31:44

stuff, and then I seem to remember him going to his

31:46

house and writing some lyrics

31:48

and then driving back and recorded

31:51

the vocal and we weren't

31:53

even the demo was so good we were considering

31:56

even if the if the recording of the band didn't

31:58

come out good, we would use that demo on the record.

32:01

So yeah, pretty yeah, So I'm pretty

32:03

sure that was around that was in that break.

32:05

And then yeah, when

32:08

when when everything

32:10

cleared and we were we

32:12

were allowed to go in the studio, I guess we probably rehearsed

32:14

for another month or two or something, and then and

32:17

then moved into the mansion, which was another thing,

32:19

Like to live in this house that was

32:22

like again or just a warm, cozy

32:25

feeling as opposed to a

32:28

sterile, you know, professional

32:30

feeling. We wouldn't have ever

32:32

known that that was a possibility, you know, to

32:35

us, you had to go in a studio

32:37

to record a song, and you were

32:39

just like, no, we could make one. And

32:42

I don't know why I thought that either because I'd never

32:44

done it before. I don't really know why

32:46

it was a strange. I

32:49

think the thought was they

32:52

had made these this group of albums

32:54

that I didn't get the feeling that there was ever

32:56

a great recording experience for the Chili

32:59

Peppers. And they were all similar

33:01

in that they all went into a corporate studio and

33:03

recorded what can we do to make

33:05

this one? The first one? That's not

33:08

like that? And I would drive over

33:10

Laurel Canyon all the time, and I loved that house.

33:12

And then I just tracked down the

33:14

owner and asked if there was any way that we could rent

33:17

it and it worked out. We

33:19

looked at other houses before that, and it wouldn't it wouldn't

33:21

have been as good. That was a really special place. Yeah,

33:23

it really was. Yeah, And

33:25

we were so excited by stuff, just like hearing

33:28

all that natural room sound on the snare

33:30

and stuff. It's like it's

33:32

it's when I hear it today, it sounds

33:34

really overblown, But it was exciting,

33:36

you know, like it was yeah, like and

33:39

it felt it was perfect for that record,

33:41

and how we had arranged the tunes because it's

33:43

smart. They were, Yeah, exactly.

33:45

It filled up the space whenever the guitar wasn't

33:48

playing or the bass wasn't playing. The

33:50

drums it almost sounded like you didn't need anything

33:52

but drums to fill up the space. Everything

33:55

else sounded like extra. So

33:57

yeah, it was. It was really magic.

33:59

And I remember when we did the overdubs

34:01

where everybody played percussion instruments. I remember

34:03

when we recorded up at midnight

34:06

behind the house outside. Remember

34:08

how in the Red Hot you did

34:10

good stuff. It was fun. And I remember Anthony

34:12

was singing upstairs in one of the bedrooms.

34:16

Yeah. Yeah, Flei was saying that that moment

34:18

of recording the Robert Johnson song in

34:20

the behind the house and the outside

34:23

was it's like his favorite

34:25

recording experience ever. Yeah.

34:29

It was some card drove on

34:32

down Laurel Canyon. You could hear it

34:34

was filled with girls and they screamed like right

34:36

before we started recording it. It was like so

34:40

cool. It just felt like that was right as

34:43

we had breast record and were it

34:45

was just like, oh, yeah, that's the magic

34:47

sound that's supposed to go right there. You

34:49

know, when you brought in the

34:51

songs that didn't sound like previous

34:53

Chili Pepper songs. What was the reaction

34:56

from the band at first when you came to rehearsal with let's

34:58

say, breaky in the Girl music, Total

35:00

openness, total excitement, Like wow, that

35:02

to me, it felt so easy to write

35:05

something like that. It felt like I could have been

35:07

doing that all along. I didn't know that it was going and

35:09

be okay, you know, yeah, because up

35:11

until that point, what the

35:13

Chili Peppers were was a very specific

35:16

thing. It was hard funk with rap

35:18

vocals always yeah,

35:20

and on this album that

35:23

that mold got broken to just be good

35:25

music. Whatever the good music was. Yeah,

35:29

And I hadn't realized how much those

35:32

limitations that we were working in as

35:34

far as the musical

35:36

style. I think I thought of that as

35:38

just as intentional. I didn't think

35:40

of it as that they just weren't able

35:42

to write something like breaking

35:44

the Girl or something. I thought specifically they

35:46

didn't want to do that. And the more I

35:49

got to know them, like on the Mother's Milk

35:51

tour, Anthony and I we

35:53

had a really nice drive in Germany at one

35:55

time, just like we'd never listened

35:57

to David Bowie together, and we listened to Hunky

36:00

Dory. We had a cassette of it that a nice

36:02

woman from e M I gave

36:04

to us, And yeah, just seeing

36:07

him feel that music so intensely and

36:09

so along the way throughout

36:11

the Mother's Milk tour, I'm starting to put it together

36:13

in my head that like, they would really

36:16

like it if I wrote stuff like this, And

36:18

in a lot of ways, it was the most natural thing

36:21

that I could do, and I just but it

36:24

was also that not just not just

36:26

that there might have been an inability to write stuff

36:28

like that before, but like, like

36:31

I really loved the band within those limitations,

36:34

Like I really like I that

36:36

that funk punk sometimes

36:38

heavy metal, but really good version of

36:40

heavy metal thing that they had. Like as

36:42

a fan, I thought it was such a brilliant combination

36:45

of things that I didn't want to mess with it

36:47

myself for purely artistic reasons,

36:49

you know, I didn't. And also you never

36:52

know something till you've tried it, And I

36:54

didn't know how good we would sound playing something like

36:56

under the Bridge, or I could have lied like

36:58

like we were saying, like even what I could have liked, we had doubt

37:00

as to whether it would even sound good with chat

37:03

and fully playing on it. You know. I can remember

37:05

when we were putting songs on the

37:07

album decide that what's

37:09

the song that ended up on the cone Head soundtrack

37:12

sold to squeeze Y. It's like, well, that couldn't

37:14

be on the album because it was like too mellow

37:17

and we already had a mellow So like, do

37:19

you remember that? Yeah, and you really did your best

37:21

to convince us to put it on there. You were

37:23

like, I think it's one of the best songs,

37:26

you know. And when

37:28

we were writing this last

37:30

batch of material that we wrote for these

37:32

couple albums, I listened

37:34

to the whole album. I listened to each

37:36

of the whole albums at some point during the

37:39

making of it, just to see where we were at and

37:41

what we might be missing. And and

37:43

when I listened to Blood Sugar, particularly, I, you

37:47

know, as great as it is and everything, I was just

37:49

like we were insane for not putting Sould

37:51

to Squeeze on that record, Like I remember

37:54

clearly fleasing my thinking

37:56

and stuff. Of course, I remember us both

37:58

particularly being like yeah,

38:01

yeah, too much as it is. We've got

38:04

three songs like this and that's

38:06

that's already way more than

38:08

Enough or something like that. It's

38:11

just such a good song. It's such a good song,

38:16

but you never know, like you really never know. And

38:18

it's like if the Ramones would have made

38:20

an album like Hunky Dorry, I don't know if

38:22

we would have liked it, do you know what I'm saying. It's like sometimes

38:25

when the formula is good or

38:27

a CDC, you know, we there

38:30

are bands that you want to sound like

38:32

the way they sound, So

38:34

in some ways it was it was risky.

38:37

Now in retrospect it worked out, but it was

38:39

risky. The other thing that it did

38:41

was they were already a

38:43

handful of those

38:45

albums, so it wasn't

38:48

like this was the band's second album of

38:51

their career. Yeah, they

38:53

had already mind

38:55

those fields for some

38:57

time. Yeah, and

39:00

it seemed like good timing to expand,

39:03

and we didn't expand like crazy.

39:05

It's still if you liked the old band, I don't think you

39:07

would have not liked the new bad. It wasn't

39:10

It wasn't like one hundred

39:12

and eighty degrees in the opposite direction. It

39:14

just was widening the scope.

39:17

Yeah, there definitely were people who didn't

39:20

like us, like who turned

39:22

on us at that point for sure when when

39:24

Blood Sugar came out, Like for sure, yeah,

39:26

there was definitely people that like the fast

39:30

punk punk thing and and

39:32

felt that we were selling out or

39:34

whatever. You know. I remember

39:37

when interviewer came to the Blood Sugar house and

39:39

he said, so, when you guys playing Vegas? And

39:41

I said, and I said, I

39:43

said, oh, we're playing in Vegas in August

39:46

or whatever, Like I thought, he actually meant, yeah,

39:48

when you're playing in Las Vegas. Yeah, yeah,

39:50

And and then and then I, oh,

39:52

okay, I see what you meant. Yeah,

39:56

like like and I'm sure I said something

39:58

really rude to him, but but yeah, like we

40:01

got a little of that. I even remember

40:04

like some punk kids like protesting

40:07

at one of our shows and flee walking out and talk

40:09

talking to them and stuff like.

40:12

But uh, in the long run, it definitely worked

40:15

out, you know, like something

40:17

similar happening by the way time as

40:19

well, Like like we went so far in this

40:21

other direction that wasn't what people expected.

40:24

And in the big picture, I

40:26

think we gained more fans than we lost.

40:28

But but there were people who

40:30

felt like like the thing

40:32

that they liked about the band, we weren't doing that

40:35

anymore. You know. But

40:37

I think, you know, I think

40:39

artistically it's good to take those you

40:41

know, to take those risks, and

40:43

absolutely, and I think for us it

40:45

worked out career wise in the long run, because

40:49

I think people definitely think of us

40:51

more as this

40:53

band that makes these melodic, you

40:56

know, pop tunes than they think of

40:58

us as a funk punk band anymore, you

41:00

know. Yeah, And we're

41:02

still able to compete with bands who

41:04

do go for a complete heavy

41:07

onslaught type. We

41:09

still have a very intense

41:12

power, like we never lost that, you

41:14

know, which is I think why maybe

41:17

even though sometimes we might have

41:19

thrown some people off and initially

41:22

they might not have liked the new direction or whatever,

41:24

like I think a lot of the time those people it

41:27

grew on them. You know. I've

41:30

never talked to you about this. Obviously, I talked to

41:32

Anthony about it because I

41:34

was with him at the beginning when it happened. But

41:37

for Under the Bridge, I remember finding the lyrics

41:39

in his book. I've told the story before,

41:41

but I remember finding the lyrics and I remember

41:44

him saying, that's not chili pepper song, because it was still

41:46

in those days that couldn't be a chili Pepper song,

41:48

and I said, well, try sing it to the band,

41:50

see what happens. And he was

41:53

very resistant, very resistant, and then

41:55

he ended up playing it for you or singing it to you,

41:58

and then you came up with the music, and I remember

42:00

he was still terrified for you

42:02

and him to present it to the rest

42:04

of the band because it seemed so

42:07

far outside of

42:09

anything that had come before it. But I want to ask

42:11

you about it. What was your experience

42:13

when he first because I wasn't there when he when he

42:16

sang it to you, what was that Like

42:19

My memory of it's a little different. I

42:21

remember you and Anthony coming to rehearsal

42:23

and you really urging him to

42:26

do it, and him making a bunch of disclaimers,

42:29

and you just really encouraging

42:31

him to sing it

42:33

to us, and he

42:36

sang it to us and Flee

42:38

and I flee drove me home off and in

42:40

those days and Flee and

42:42

I driving home, and it made us really

42:44

sad under the bridge.

42:47

Hearing it just made us feel like, boy,

42:50

Anthony's really bummed out, like

42:52

like heavy yeah, like heavy

42:54

words. Yeah. We just felt really

42:57

like bad form And it was just this like

43:00

sad kind of experience. And

43:03

and going back to my house and just singing, Boy,

43:05

that song is a real bummer, you know, like

43:08

not meaning that it's bad, meaning

43:10

like emotionally, yeah,

43:12

Like I thought of it as a song about that

43:14

he doesn't have any friends. That's that

43:16

was how I described it in my head.

43:20

But with your encouragement and

43:22

with feeling having a feeling

43:24

that there was something there,

43:28

Anthony and I made a plan for

43:30

me to go to his house. And

43:33

I wasn't super looking forward to

43:35

the thing, Like I thought of it as a depressing

43:39

and as a friend, not really

43:41

knowing how to like how

43:44

to be there for that part of him, you

43:46

know, like like I

43:48

guess I felt maybe in some ways like he didn't feel

43:50

like I was there for him as a friend or something.

43:53

But we got together to do it, and

43:56

I had I had some vague ideas in my head.

43:58

I thought, there's these Jimi Hendrix

44:01

songs. There's a couple of them

44:03

on Access Boldest Love. The

44:05

song Boldest Love and

44:08

it's it's got this kind of chord

44:10

progression that's very similar chord progression

44:13

to the chord progression of Under

44:15

the Bridge, where it starts on a major

44:17

chord, but it goes to a minor

44:20

chord in the course of the chord progression,

44:22

so it's basically happy, but

44:25

it's also got this slight

44:27

sadness that it moves right through. And

44:30

I think, I so even though I didn't know exactly

44:33

what we were going to come up with, like driving

44:36

there, I remember I specifically thought, do

44:38

something like Bold's Love like because we'd

44:40

also been we've been performing

44:42

a cover of Castles Made of Sand,

44:44

which is off that same Jimmie Hendricks album,

44:47

and it worked live like. Our audience liked

44:49

it. You know, that's my favorite Jimmie Hendricks

44:52

song, right, and so

44:54

so yeah, so we've been doing that all through

44:56

the Mother's Milk tour and everybody loved it. So

44:59

so I knew we could sound good playing something

45:01

like that, and so I thought, just

45:03

write something like that, and we figured

45:05

out how to have the chords

45:08

and the lyric and the melody and all

45:11

work together with that. And

45:13

there was a Joe Jackson song that I was particularly

45:16

fond of called in Every Dream,

45:18

Home and Nightmare, where when it gets

45:20

to the chorus, there's nothing on

45:22

the one, there's the verse happens,

45:25

and then there's a little drum break and so the verse

45:27

ends and then the drums go to

45:30

good bomb

45:35

bomb bomb

45:38

bomb, So

45:40

it's this interesting kind of groove just where it

45:42

where it where there's nothing on the

45:44

one, and there's a little drum break right before the chorus.

45:47

So when Anthony I came up with it that

45:50

that was I what I envisioned my head was we

45:52

could do a chorus like that Joe Jackson song. So

45:54

what I came up with that have a similar kind of

45:56

drum break after the verse is over, this

45:59

little breath and then and then

46:01

in our case, it went one to the

46:04

bomb, bomb bomb, So

46:07

like the chord was arting at

46:09

a different time. It's sooner in the bar line,

46:11

but it was the same basic idea

46:14

I played. I played Ryan, our engineer,

46:17

that song, saying this is where I got the idea

46:19

for under the Bridge chorus in the song. The chorus

46:21

went by him and he was like, I don't hear it, of

46:24

course, yeah, but but

46:26

conceptually it was that it was that idea

46:28

of start later than the one rather than on

46:31

the one for the chorus. That's

46:33

a really interesting point in general, how

46:35

we can be inspired by a piece of music

46:37

or a technique and a piece of music and

46:40

then make something inspired by it and

46:42

it's nothing like it. Yeah,

46:44

it's nothing like it. It's just some underlying

46:48

rhythm or organization or

46:50

principle that gets you to the next place.

46:53

But it's not the song at all.

46:55

It's just the technique. Yeah,

46:58

yeah, we did. We did a lot of that back then.

47:00

Flee and I were really on a roll

47:02

with that. What we perceived is ripping.

47:04

We called it ripping something off. But

47:07

there is one example of that that I would

47:10

just think that I would say comes anywhere near

47:12

plagiarism, you know, it was.

47:14

It's really inspiration and it's like, oh, we could

47:16

do something like that, and that

47:19

the context is so different

47:21

that it has nothing to do with the

47:23

original. Yeah, And a lot of the time it

47:26

might be in the guitar part or the bass

47:28

part, but then that gets covered up and interacted

47:30

with by the drums and the guitar

47:33

or whatever, and you wind

47:35

up with a completely different texture and a completely

47:38

different sound and a completely different musical

47:40

statement. Where a lot of musicians

47:42

I've known have been paranoid about stealing

47:45

from anybody else, and

47:48

then for some reason, those same musicians

47:51

actually have bass lines or

47:53

guitar parts that are exactly something

47:56

director rip offs and they

47:58

didn't and they didn't know they were doing

48:00

it, you know. So somehow I

48:02

feel like by being conscious of it, we were

48:04

controlling it, you know. And it would be

48:06

a theoretical idea that we

48:08

were taking, or or an idea

48:10

that has something to do with the relationship of the

48:13

instruments, or and it's

48:15

it's not actually taking music

48:17

from somebody else. Yeah, it's like

48:20

architecture. Yeah,

48:23

we'll be right back with more from Rick Rubin and

48:26

John Fuschante. We're

48:31

back with Rick Rubin and John Fuschante, who

48:33

are talking about the making of the Chili Peppers

48:35

nineteen ninety one album Blood Sugar Sex

48:38

Magic. So then

48:40

we finished that album. I remember

48:42

we had a really good party at that house. It

48:44

was really fun. It felt like a thousand

48:47

people were there. Do you remember that. Yeah, that

48:49

was a lot of fun. That was really good. Yeah,

48:52

playing music everywhere in

48:55

the house and stuff and people playing ping

48:57

pong and yeah,

48:59

and then you went on the road and then

49:01

how long was it before it stopped being fun?

49:04

Well, we

49:06

had a pretty big break between especially

49:09

because we weren't really involved in the mixing,

49:13

so as I remember it from

49:15

the time I left the recording

49:17

studio. I think of it as being like

49:19

a six month period or something that we weren't

49:21

doing anything. Was probably shorter than that, but I

49:23

seem to remember having a nice

49:25

long break, you know, And

49:28

during that time there's

49:30

a couple of things that happened to me that I

49:33

think like switched my

49:36

mental gears around. Like one

49:38

was a bad acid trip, like taking

49:40

acid in the wrong environment and

49:43

feeling at the time like I was never going to be the same,

49:46

and being stuck in that mindset, and

49:48

then waking up and feeling like, Okay, I'm I'm

49:51

normal now, I'm not stuck like that. But

49:53

as the weeks went on, starting to realize that

49:56

I don't think I am the same anymore,

49:59

and also started I

50:02

won't get into too much into the drug thing, but

50:04

they did seem like pivotal things

50:06

that took place that

50:09

that started occasionally using

50:12

heroin around the same time

50:15

and gradually and you know, as

50:18

I had already been smoking pot all day

50:20

long, but it was having a very positive effect,

50:22

you know, up till then, but especially

50:26

when that happened with the acid trip, it was

50:28

just like I think my brain

50:30

definitely needed like a clearing,

50:33

and I didn't allow myself for that. I was

50:35

so attached to the

50:38

relationship between pot

50:40

and my creativity that

50:43

I couldn't stop doing that. And

50:46

gradually we went we went on tour,

50:48

and gradually that synesthesia that I was

50:50

talking about, it was gradually

50:53

getting weaker and weaker, like there

50:56

was a distinct feeling of it drifting

50:58

away and it was

51:00

fading. I would guess it would be a

51:02

good way to describe it. And with

51:04

the limited experience I'd had in

51:06

my life up till then, it

51:10

seemed like if I didn't have that, I

51:13

wasn't going to have creativity. Like

51:15

I thought that they were the same thing, and I thought,

51:18

if I didn't have that, I'm going to go back to being

51:20

how I was at mother's milk time or something

51:22

or And the one time, the

51:24

one activity that I could do that

51:27

still was producing that phenomenon

51:30

was drawing and painting. And

51:32

I guess that had a lot to do with the fact

51:35

that there was no purpose

51:37

to it. I wasn't doing it for an audience.

51:39

I wasn't doing it to be good. I wasn't

51:41

doing it to impress anybody. I

51:44

wasn't doing it to make money. So

51:46

somehow that part

51:48

of my creativity gradually was

51:50

the thing that I was clutching

51:52

to more and more, and

51:55

music itself was starting

51:57

to seem more and more meaningless, and I was having

52:00

a lot of strange experiences. Were like I

52:03

couldn't find any CDs or records

52:05

on the shelves that I wanted to hear.

52:07

Everyone had some sort of bad connotation

52:11

to me, and those experiences

52:13

were really scary. And

52:15

so where music had

52:17

felt like it like it was

52:20

my best friend, it was starting to feel like music

52:22

itself was turning on me or

52:24

something. It felt like the

52:26

voices in my head that had been

52:28

guiding me towards what had

52:30

been by far the most creative period of

52:32

my life, we're starting to seem

52:35

like angry at me or opposed

52:38

to me in some way. We weren't we weren't.

52:41

We weren't working as a team anymore. And

52:44

I felt like as the tour

52:46

went on, I couldn't

52:48

explain any of this stuff to anybody. I don't

52:50

think I even knew the word synesthesia. I don't,

52:53

I just knew it felt like my creativity was

52:56

disappearing, and the

52:59

painting and the drawing and the

53:01

drugs as well, were with

53:04

my sense if that if those

53:06

feelings that I was having in me were what creativity

53:08

was, those seemed like the way, it seemed

53:10

like the way to hold onto it was to

53:13

take drugs as much as I wanted and to

53:16

paint and draw as much as possible. And

53:19

that was really you know, you learn different ways

53:21

of doing this kind of thing of

53:23

staying connected to creativity in your

53:25

life. But at that time, you

53:28

know, I was twenty two years old, it

53:31

seemed to me that you just followed whatever

53:33

those feelings that you have inside you are.

53:37

You just you stay connected to whatever

53:39

gives you that feeling, like the

53:42

Dennis Joplin lyric about you

53:45

know you've got it if it makes you feel good, that

53:47

that's that's I thought that that was

53:50

the path to follow. So it didn't occur

53:53

to me to do anything like stop

53:55

smoking pot or stop

53:57

taking drugs, or you know, meditate, not

53:59

you know, these things just we're

54:02

not We're not anything

54:04

that me or anybody that I was close

54:06

to was considering at the time. Did

54:09

you even meditate back then? Yeah,

54:11

I learned when I was fourteen, of course,

54:14

But I remember I remember coming to see

54:16

you when it was bad at

54:18

your old house, and it was you

54:22

didn't have many teeth then, if any,

54:25

and the walls had blood all over them. There

54:27

was a lot of vomit everywhere, and

54:29

I think you may have still had one guitar, but

54:31

maybe not even that. And

54:33

I remember you being

54:37

resolute in what you were doing. There

54:39

was a sense of it wasn't

54:41

like you were trapped and you

54:43

wanted to get out. It was just the opposite. It's like,

54:45

no, this is I am following my path

54:47

and I'm following it to its

54:50

end wherever it takes me. And

54:53

you definitely owned

54:56

it, you know, you owned your choices

54:58

and were going it was again like I

55:01

respect you. You know, I wouldn't

55:04

tell you didn't do anything different. Like if

55:06

you say this is what I want to do, it's like I

55:08

used and I wouldn't want anyone telling me to do

55:11

something different than what I want to do. Whatever it is,

55:13

whatever it is right or wrong or good

55:15

or bad or wherever it goes, Like I support

55:17

you in your journey, and

55:20

if this is the journey that feels like

55:22

the one that you want to be on, it's

55:25

sad for me to see because it felt

55:28

like you were going away. I

55:30

think you weighed very little at that

55:32

time too, and we're really weak, but

55:35

you were still you, and you were still smiley

55:37

and like you were. It

55:40

wouldn't be so different than the conversation

55:42

we're having now, you know, other

55:44

than it just seemed more harrowing

55:46

from an outsider coming in that

55:49

this was a scary

55:51

situation. Yeah, it's just so

55:54

we have no context for this situation

55:56

at any point in my life. Like, I don't know what

55:59

to do other than I

56:01

love you, I support you, whatever it is. I don't

56:03

know what that is, you know, it's just scary. Yeah,

56:05

no, I that was a funny thing

56:07

about me during that period comparison to other

56:10

people that I was friends with who went down

56:12

in a similar path with drugs, was that

56:14

they all felt guilty about it always,

56:17

like they all denied it

56:19

took them a long time to even admit that they were an

56:21

addict, and took them a long

56:24

time to and

56:26

they would they would always be talking about how they were going to quit.

56:28

They were always talking about how this

56:30

is the last time. And

56:32

I never did any of that. Like, while I

56:34

was doing it, I was really happy doing it. I

56:36

was so happy to still be in touch with that

56:39

spark of creativity inside myself,

56:41

and I really felt that it was drifting

56:43

away while I was playing with the band, and when

56:45

I as long as I had to do publicity

56:48

and you know, and touring

56:50

and all these things, performing

56:53

in front of people, it just felt like it

56:55

was there was no It seemed to me there was no

56:57

direction for it to go to but to disappear

57:00

completely. And I felt that in what

57:02

I was doing, I was keeping it alive. And really

57:05

the hard time for me was when I

57:07

was when I attempted to stop, Like there

57:10

was about a year there where

57:14

I just didn't feel like myself anymore and the

57:16

feelings went completely away, Like once

57:19

I stopped taking drugs, there was nothing.

57:22

My head was blank, there was no there

57:24

was no seeing music as colors

57:27

or music as shapes or anything like that

57:29

anymore. It was just tell me the

57:31

story of deciding to stop. You told me a story

57:33

when I first saw you after that, and I want to see

57:35

if it is still what it was then or

57:37

close to what it was then. Yeah, the

57:40

last time I saw you at your house when things

57:42

were scary for me to see you were

57:44

very positive on this journey

57:46

that you were on and it was

57:48

an unflinching move

57:51

wherever it was going to go. And then

57:53

the next time I saw you was at

57:56

Lachma at a Bunuelle movie

57:59

festival, and I didn't recognize you because

58:01

you looked so radically different, but you were

58:03

great and healthy, and I couldn't believe

58:06

it. I was so happy. I was so happy

58:08

to see you, so happy to see you alive. It was so happy

58:10

to see you, and you were your your

58:13

again, your happy self. So tell

58:15

me about what happened in between for

58:17

that to happen, right, Okay,

58:20

getting specific, I'm pretty sure that

58:23

that time when I saw you at

58:25

the nuel thing was during

58:28

that first year that I

58:31

had gotten over the addiction of heroin

58:33

that I've never since then had

58:35

to be medicated to get off

58:38

heroin. But but it was

58:40

about a year where most of the time I was clean,

58:42

but I also was had

58:45

certain points during it where I

58:48

had a speed binge or

58:50

a crack binge or something like I was I

58:53

had this idea that I could do things. I

58:55

really always wanted to be able to do things occasionally,

58:58

you know, And so that was my first attempt to do

59:01

that, And and it was a

59:03

It was a hard period because that

59:05

thing where you didn't recognize me, like a lot

59:07

of a lot of people had

59:09

that with me at the time, like my

59:13

body's ability. My body had forgotten how to

59:15

process food, you know, like

59:17

like and I didn't

59:19

know anything. Really I was. I was trying to

59:21

eat what I thought was health food, but it

59:23

wasn't really super helping. And

59:26

I felt very uncomfortable in my body,

59:29

and so I was that first

59:31

year was really a struggle because I not

59:33

only was I trying to exist in the world

59:35

knowing I don't have those things

59:38

that I was describing as feelings and

59:41

vibes connected with music anymore,

59:43

at least it wasn't in the pronounced

59:45

way that it was when I had synesthesia.

59:48

But boy, did joy division

59:50

mean everything to me back then? Did

59:52

like Nirvana Bob Marley

59:55

Joy divisions those three things in particular,

59:58

Like I was so crazy about those particular

1:00:00

things, like I just they

1:00:03

meant so much to me, And

1:00:06

I didn't have that specific, colorful

1:00:09

reaction to them that I was describing that

1:00:12

you know, from the Blood Sugar time. But I

1:00:15

don't think music had ever meant so much to

1:00:17

me because life seemed so bleak.

1:00:20

Otherwise, people didn't

1:00:22

really enjoy being around me.

1:00:24

People felt sorry for me a lot. The

1:00:27

same sense of humor that used to be funny

1:00:29

when I was like the young, handsome, cool

1:00:31

guy, now like the

1:00:34

same jokes didn't work anymore, Like

1:00:36

the same sense of humor it wasn't working.

1:00:39

I'm convinced that I was that when I

1:00:41

was twenty twenty one, I

1:00:43

could have been an actor. At that time twenty

1:00:45

seven, I had the distinct feeling

1:00:47

I could never be an actor again. After this experience

1:00:50

of realizing like how much of

1:00:52

myself was on the surface

1:00:55

that was the reason that my personality

1:00:58

was what it was. It was

1:01:01

very traumatic, and so that

1:01:03

year was tough, and it ended with

1:01:05

a few months of me making

1:01:08

sure I avoided heroin addiction,

1:01:11

but just doing whatever I wanted and

1:01:13

going really off to deep end and having these

1:01:15

crazy experiences

1:01:17

where they were hallucinations

1:01:20

but they were very real for me, where

1:01:22

like people were in my house that weren't

1:01:24

there, and I spent hours talking to them

1:01:27

and stuff. Marcel

1:01:29

Duchamp, Flee and Clara like Perry

1:01:31

Farrell, all kinds of people were there

1:01:34

and I thought they were there. I would call them afterwards

1:01:37

talking about what

1:01:39

we had done yesterday, why did you leave when?

1:01:42

Because they would just disappear after a matter of

1:01:44

hours of hanging out with each other, and then they would

1:01:46

just disappear, and I would call them wondering

1:01:48

what happened? Where did you go? And

1:01:51

it wasn't until I'd had that experience a

1:01:53

bunch of times that I realized, Wow, these things

1:01:56

I'm hanging out with people really late at night,

1:01:59

and that was that was the way to know for

1:02:01

me, like if somebody's here and it's two

1:02:03

in the morning, they're not actually here. So

1:02:07

that was a that was a pretty mind blowing

1:02:09

period of time because I remember trying

1:02:11

to make four track recordings at that time and

1:02:13

finding that I was completely unable to follow

1:02:15

a musical idea from to its completion.

1:02:19

But as far as experientially, what

1:02:22

was happening during that period of time, as far as

1:02:24

my experience is listening to music and

1:02:28

having feelings, and I

1:02:30

don't know if it was communication with people's astrabodies

1:02:33

or hallucinations, I'm not sure what it was, but

1:02:35

it was very real and

1:02:37

I remember getting there was

1:02:39

a very loud voice in my head that said, you're

1:02:42

going to be dead by your birthday. This

1:02:44

is in December, and

1:02:47

my birthday would have been four months later. And the

1:02:50

voice said, you're going to be dead by your birthday

1:02:52

unless you get clean. And

1:02:54

so I was pondering this, not

1:02:57

sure, because throughout

1:02:59

that year that I tried to be clean, it

1:03:03

didn't seem like anybody wanted to be my friend. It

1:03:05

didn't seem like anybody wanted to really connect

1:03:08

with me. It didn't seemed like I knew how to interact

1:03:10

with people. And

1:03:12

so all of a sudden, that voice

1:03:15

came saying that I was gonna that

1:03:17

I was going to die in a few months. And all

1:03:20

of a sudden, all these things started happening

1:03:23

that forced me into a position

1:03:26

of having to get clean. I

1:03:28

had several thousand dollars probably

1:03:30

six seven thousand dollars in

1:03:32

cash in my closet and

1:03:34

that I would carry around with me, and

1:03:37

I went downtown to buy some drugs and

1:03:40

I came back and well,

1:03:42

no, the first thing that happened was the landlord

1:03:45

came to my house said he had to look inside my house,

1:03:48

and I said, I can't let you in

1:03:50

because there was needles and blood

1:03:53

and different things. And it

1:03:55

was a real mess. Even if it wasn't for the needles

1:03:57

and blood. It was just messy and disgusting, and

1:04:01

I knew he wouldn't be happy, and so he said, well, if

1:04:04

you don't let me in buy tomorrow, I'm going to have

1:04:06

to come here with the police. And I

1:04:08

already had a warrant for my arrest

1:04:11

because I'd gotten picked up downtown

1:04:14

buying drugs. But they let me go, and

1:04:18

I mean they let they let me out. There was a court date

1:04:20

coming in the future. So that was the

1:04:22

first thing I did, was I got everything I needed out

1:04:24

of that house and had had

1:04:26

an acquaintance drive

1:04:28

me to a hotel. And

1:04:30

then I had that six or seven thousand dollars and

1:04:33

came back from buying drugs and the

1:04:36

money just was gone. I had no idea

1:04:38

where it could have gone. My best bet

1:04:40

was that somehow I lost it in the taxi,

1:04:43

but that was all the money I had. And

1:04:46

then Bob, the friend

1:04:48

of mine, put me on the phone with Bob Forrest,

1:04:50

and he said, I can get you in

1:04:53

a clinic to get off

1:04:55

drugs. You can do it however you want,

1:04:58

you know, I told

1:05:00

him I'm not addicted to anything. I don't

1:05:02

need. I don't need pills or anything. And

1:05:05

he said, if you don't want to take them, you don't

1:05:08

have to take them. You need to

1:05:10

go in there just to reset your mind.

1:05:12

And and uh, I

1:05:14

really had no choice. I mean it would have

1:05:16

been between that and just being a bomb on

1:05:18

the street, you know, like moving

1:05:20

into a tent or something. And so

1:05:23

I did it. And this for the first

1:05:25

time. I tried a few times to get off drugs,

1:05:27

but this time I

1:05:29

had had a feeling for the

1:05:32

people who were there. Instead

1:05:34

of arguing about the wisdom

1:05:36

of being completely clean and admitting

1:05:38

yourself an addict and that means you can't ever take

1:05:40

anything, instead of arguing with this stuff,

1:05:42

I really tried my best to

1:05:44

help the other people who I was in there

1:05:47

with. And by some weird fluke,

1:05:49

like DH, the original drummer

1:05:52

I played in the band with, wound up in the same

1:05:55

hospital with me at the same

1:05:57

time. And yeah, so I just

1:05:59

felt this empathy for

1:06:02

the people that I like, I thought, regardless

1:06:04

of what happens with me, like I want to, I don't

1:06:06

want to mess up anybody else's experience because

1:06:09

they're all they've all been having a harmful

1:06:11

effect on their loved ones and people around

1:06:14

them, and like, I'm not going to say anything

1:06:16

to argue with their

1:06:18

attempt to better themselves,

1:06:20

you know. And so yeah,

1:06:22

so I went through that that thirty days

1:06:24

and that was the December of nineteen

1:06:27

ninety seven, and nineteen ninety

1:06:29

eight turned out to be really productive. You're

1:06:31

the first few months again, we're really boring. I didn't

1:06:33

feel good inside myself. And I feel like, especially

1:06:35

nowadays with the Internet and stuff, people forget

1:06:39

how valuable it can be to just be really

1:06:42

bored, you know, absolutely

1:06:44

how valuable it can be to realize

1:06:47

I'm not comfortable in my body, you know,

1:06:51

to realize I have no ability to

1:06:53

communicate with people, you

1:06:55

know, to push yourself

1:06:57

and to try to get better at at

1:07:00

at listening to people and talking with people

1:07:03

and having fun with people all that

1:07:05

stuff, like to actually have to make an effort

1:07:08

for it, not to be able to just be some automatic

1:07:10

thing you can do by saying something

1:07:12

you think is witty that you don't actually see

1:07:14

the reaction to, you know.

1:07:17

And yeah, so I had several months that were really

1:07:19

boring, and then I think other

1:07:21

people, you know, saw me as being at

1:07:23

a really good place. And before I knew it. They asked

1:07:26

me to be in the band again and we started

1:07:28

writing Californication. How

1:07:31

many years was it between leaving

1:07:33

the band and coming back that time, I

1:07:35

think about four and a half years, maybe

1:07:37

five years, And yeah,

1:07:39

like I didn't know what

1:07:42

I was capable of anymore, but it

1:07:44

didn't matter. I think something had turned around in my

1:07:47

head where I realized that making

1:07:50

music wasn't about

1:07:54

making music so you could generate these intense

1:07:56

feelings within yourself, Like I

1:07:59

think I was almost looking at it before, at the

1:08:01

Blood Sugar time, as if making

1:08:03

music was a way of creating a sort of a painting

1:08:05

in my head or something. You know.

1:08:09

Throughout those all those years, the

1:08:11

music that I really felt strongly about, like

1:08:13

those people I just mentioned, and Jane's

1:08:16

addiction and the Germs and David

1:08:18

Bowie, the things that really meant

1:08:21

something to me from music, it

1:08:23

felt as if those people were

1:08:26

giving me their friendship. It felt

1:08:29

like like when I was

1:08:31

alone, they were my friends. So

1:08:34

I think I had it in my head that I

1:08:36

suspected and I wasn't sure that

1:08:39

making music can be a

1:08:41

way of helping

1:08:44

other people, a way of giving to

1:08:46

other people, not taking yourself

1:08:48

from the music that your

1:08:51

own experience might be very bland,

1:08:53

but you might have something in your soul

1:08:56

that you can by attempting to do something

1:08:58

that you think is good, that you

1:09:00

can give to other people that can

1:09:03

function much like a

1:09:05

good doctor does, where you're making

1:09:08

people feel better. And

1:09:10

those are the kind of ideas that were swimming around

1:09:12

in my head at the time, and I had

1:09:14

a lot of ideas. I had never regretted

1:09:17

quitting the band during that five years,

1:09:19

but towards the end of it, I started having

1:09:22

these visions of what we could

1:09:24

have done back in those

1:09:26

days if if I had stayed with the band, What

1:09:29

new musical territories

1:09:31

could we have covered, you know what? What

1:09:34

what new ways could we have combined

1:09:37

that melodic aspect with the

1:09:39

funk aspect and things like this.

1:09:41

Because I'm that Blood Sugar album, it's

1:09:44

it's kind of segregated. It's like there's

1:09:46

the mellow melodic songs,

1:09:48

and there's there's the funky, fun

1:09:50

kind of songs, and

1:09:52

and there's a little bit across over here and there,

1:09:54

but mostly they're distinctly separate.

1:09:57

And so I started seeing how the

1:09:59

two things could have fused together in different

1:10:02

ways, and so when they asked me to

1:10:04

be in the band, immediately I started being excited

1:10:06

about, Wow, that maybe those that music

1:10:08

I've was hearing in my head that was you

1:10:11

know, that was something that I thought was just

1:10:14

something that could have happened in the past that never

1:10:16

can happen again. Maybe it can actually, maybe

1:10:19

I can actually do those things. And we

1:10:21

did them and we were really excited

1:10:24

about them. So and once

1:10:26

that album was done and it did as well as

1:10:28

it did and stuff, and it made people

1:10:30

as happy as it did it just like it

1:10:33

made me realize, Yeah, it's true, Like it doesn't

1:10:35

really matter if you have if

1:10:37

you're blank in your head or if

1:10:39

you have a ton of swirthly you

1:10:42

know, colorful scenes

1:10:44

going on in your head while you're making music. That's

1:10:46

not what it's about. It's about really connecting

1:10:50

with the people you're playing with, supporting the people

1:10:52

you're playing with. You know, writing

1:10:55

music that you feel

1:10:57

is somehow connected to the music that you

1:10:59

really love that means something to you. And

1:11:01

to have that mindset of wanting

1:11:04

to share something with with the people

1:11:06

that you're making music with and with the

1:11:09

people in the world who might eventually hear

1:11:11

it. You know, even as

1:11:13

something as specific as going

1:11:16

into the studio and playing a

1:11:18

song together and getting a good take is

1:11:21

a wildly exciting feeling. Yeah,

1:11:24

you know, like when it comes together and you hear

1:11:26

it really sound good. I

1:11:29

find it thrilling because a lot it doesn't always

1:11:31

you know, like sometimes playing it's like, oh, that's it's

1:11:34

okay. But when it really

1:11:36

does something beyond the

1:11:39

regular, it's a very

1:11:41

thrilling feeling being in the room and

1:11:43

feeling it happen. Yeah.

1:11:45

And there's something about that

1:11:47

thing that we were talking about earlier that I

1:11:49

feel like you kind of infused on us. Where your

1:11:52

object going into it isn't to have a premonition

1:11:55

that that's the feeling you're going to get. You

1:11:57

go in with a kind of a humility and

1:11:59

a kind of an innocence, not knowing

1:12:02

how it's supposed to sound, not knowing what

1:12:04

it's going to come back sounding like. And

1:12:06

yeah, so when you go in with that mindset of

1:12:09

just being ready for whatever to happen,

1:12:11

and then you realize you're really happy

1:12:14

with what's coming out of the speakers, it's true, it's

1:12:16

really thrilling. It's a great feeling.

1:12:19

It's different than I want it to be this

1:12:21

way, and like check I did it.

1:12:23

It's different than Matt. It's when it when

1:12:26

when it feels like something bigger is happening

1:12:28

than what we can control ourselves,

1:12:31

and I see it happened. I see it happen a lot

1:12:33

in your band, where something

1:12:36

happens where the

1:12:39

way everybody feels it and

1:12:41

when everyone leans in the same way

1:12:43

together, something big

1:12:46

happens, right, and it feels

1:12:48

bigger than the individual parts. Not to take anything

1:12:50

away from the individual parts, but the

1:12:53

combo does some thing and

1:12:55

it's very exciting. Yeah.

1:12:59

Yeah, we're all really conscious of giving

1:13:02

to each other and supporting each other. You know. We

1:13:05

see the space between the parts as being the fundamental

1:13:08

thing. I don't think any idea is overconcerned

1:13:10

with their own part, you know, like

1:13:13

everybody's trying to find the right relationship

1:13:16

between their part and the and

1:13:19

the bass part there. Or it's like for

1:13:21

me, my part in the bass part, my part and the drum

1:13:23

part, my part in the vocal part, like you're

1:13:26

trying to find a relationship to the other

1:13:28

things. You're not trying to do your part

1:13:31

as if your part exists in one bubble and their

1:13:33

part exists in another bubble, so

1:13:35

it seems like that mindset, it

1:13:38

definitely contributes to the to

1:13:40

the effect that you're talking about. Yeah,

1:13:43

that Californication record really like,

1:13:46

like when I listened to all our records, it's

1:13:49

my favorite one in terms of the

1:13:52

band's connection to each other. And

1:13:55

it seems like we were we were really all

1:13:57

opening up this door that made us

1:13:59

able to to do that

1:14:01

that we hadn't seen was there. And

1:14:05

and like a lot of people think like that

1:14:07

my playing was like less developed

1:14:10

then or something that I got better as it went

1:14:12

towards stadium and I get arcadium, And I can

1:14:14

see how people think that, but

1:14:17

because maybe technically I got better, but I

1:14:19

really wanted to play in the way that

1:14:22

I was playing then, Like stylistically,

1:14:24

I felt like having

1:14:26

a tone that was like clean

1:14:28

to the point of being like weak sounding. I

1:14:30

felt like it made Chat and Flee sound really

1:14:33

good, you know. And to

1:14:35

play in a way that was simple

1:14:38

and kind of feminine, like not

1:14:41

so much the macho, you

1:14:43

know, guitar god guy, but to play

1:14:46

in a way that that was again

1:14:48

just as simple as possible

1:14:50

and supportive of everything else. I

1:14:52

felt like it made them sound really good, you know,

1:14:55

And I don't know. It's something I try

1:14:57

not to lose connection with because I really do love

1:14:59

just going off on the guitar and playing

1:15:01

in a wild way. But

1:15:04

but there's definitely something to be said for

1:15:07

for the way I approached it on that record. I

1:15:09

was really inspired. I went

1:15:11

into it knowing, Okay, I don't sound like Jimmy

1:15:13

Hendricks right now, you know, like I

1:15:15

played guitar on and off for those four years,

1:15:18

but I didn't have the same kind of muscular

1:15:20

ability that I did then, So like

1:15:23

my vibrato didn't sound like I

1:15:26

couldn't do that Jimmy Hendricks kind of vibrato.

1:15:29

But I practiced really hard and I got to

1:15:31

the point where I think I could have done it,

1:15:33

but I was by the time we went in the studio,

1:15:36

But I was along the way. I

1:15:38

developed this style that I thought was better that

1:15:40

was rooted more in stuff

1:15:42

like Joy Division and Bow Wow Wow

1:15:44

and The Cure and stuff

1:15:47

like this, where I felt the guitar playing is

1:15:49

really television where the guitar playing is really

1:15:51

powerful, but it's not particularly

1:15:54

muscular. And I felt that I'd

1:15:56

hit on something as far as a

1:15:58

new way of rounding out the band's chemistry.

1:16:00

You know, in that album you also started

1:16:03

singing harmony in a big way. That

1:16:05

that's where it really harmony came into the picture

1:16:07

on that album as well. Exactly.

1:16:09

Yeah, and that was one hundred percent you like,

1:16:12

like because I definitely

1:16:15

was not open to the idea initially,

1:16:19

like like you really had to talk me into

1:16:21

it. I can remember we were at the

1:16:23

village and we were listening. I

1:16:25

was playing use of Simon and Garfunkel stuff

1:16:28

just chill, like, look how cool it is when the harmony

1:16:30

crosses over. It's like it does some whole

1:16:32

other there's some whole

1:16:34

other level of sophistication to the music

1:16:37

when you have this other harmonic thing going

1:16:40

on that we didn't have at that time. It's like maybe

1:16:42

there's a place for it, and it could have not

1:16:44

worked, but it works. You know, it could have who knows.

1:16:46

We remember there were also many experiments

1:16:48

we tried it would failed, you know, it's like you

1:16:50

never know. But that was one time where

1:16:52

like, yeah, there was a day when I listened to it

1:16:55

and I came back and feeling like, you

1:16:57

know, harmonies are lame, you know, like

1:16:59

like and and but I continued

1:17:02

listening to music at home every night when I went

1:17:04

home, and then I started realizing

1:17:06

that there were harmonies and all kinds of music

1:17:08

that I love that I hadn't even noticed. You would

1:17:10

think I'm a singer. I'm a musician, like I

1:17:14

would have noticed, But somehow we

1:17:16

hear it as if it's in the lead vocal,

1:17:19

and we don't. Our ear doesn't consciously

1:17:21

it's a backing vocal, so it's doing

1:17:23

its job. It's it's not the vocal of

1:17:25

attention, and your attention just

1:17:27

stays with the lead vocal and you don't realize

1:17:29

that there's this harmony part that's really

1:17:32

giving it depth. And the more music I listened

1:17:34

to where I was listening for that because

1:17:36

you'd been pushing me to do it, I

1:17:38

started realizing, geez, all my favorite

1:17:40

records have these great harmonies on them,

1:17:43

you know. So I started getting excited

1:17:45

about it and at least enough

1:17:47

to try it. And

1:17:50

I don't think it was till the record was done

1:17:53

and Gee Pechoto from Fugazi told

1:17:55

me that specifically he loved

1:17:57

the harmonies on the record. That

1:18:00

was when I realized, like, oh wow, okay,

1:18:02

cool, keeping good. Then, you know, it

1:18:05

seemed just passable when I was doing

1:18:07

it. It didn't. I wasn't. I wasn't a dred

1:18:09

percent convinced. You know, it was really

1:18:11

good. I remember it was regally and

1:18:14

it just felt like again, like another door

1:18:16

was open, you know, just of what another

1:18:19

thing that could possibly happen. Yeah,

1:18:21

it's true. I can't imagine all our records

1:18:23

since then. You haven't done that. Yeah,

1:18:26

I feel like maybe we should stop

1:18:29

now and then we're going to do this again,

1:18:31

because I feel like it's going to take us a

1:18:33

couple of hours to talk about each album. I think

1:18:35

based on how long we've been going,

1:18:38

right, Okay, you mean like

1:18:40

sometime soon, you mean like a year from now, whatever, whatever

1:18:43

you want, we'll do. We'll do a part three whenever

1:18:45

you want. But I feel like there's

1:18:48

enough for us to talk about where to go in

1:18:50

depth where we need. We just need a lot

1:18:52

of time. Okay, great, but

1:18:54

this was a great like it's a great

1:18:57

next chapter from where we were, right,

1:18:59

Okay, so let's let's plan on doing that. Okay,

1:19:02

cool? Cool, it sounds good.

1:19:05

I love talking to you, and I love I feel like again

1:19:07

I know you forever, and I feel like I learned. Every time

1:19:09

we talk about stuff blows

1:19:11

my mind. Thanks

1:19:15

Man, and you know you're the best person

1:19:17

to do an interview with. It's really pleasant talking

1:19:19

to you, cool Man. Thanks

1:19:24

for John from Shante. Be sure to keep an eye out

1:19:26

for the second half of this conversation with Rick

1:19:28

Rubin coming soon. You

1:19:30

can hear all of our favorite red Hot Chili Pepper songs

1:19:32

on a playlist at broken record podcast

1:19:34

dot com. Be sure to subscribe

1:19:36

to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com

1:19:39

slash Broken Record Podcast, where

1:19:41

you can find all of our new episodes. You

1:19:43

can follow us on Twitter at broken Record.

1:19:46

Broken Record is produced Helpful Lea Rose, Jason

1:19:48

Gambrel, Bentaladay, Eric Sandler,

1:19:51

and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help

1:19:53

from Nick Chaffey. Our executive

1:19:55

producer is Mia LaBelle. Broken

1:19:58

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1:20:22

Richmond,