0:08

Pushkin. I

0:11

first discovered Leonard Cohen, like most people,

0:14

through a song Hallelujah, a beautiful

0:16

and complex song with a ton of verses.

0:19

But I grew to love him after discovering his early

0:22

albums, full of nylon string guitars and songs

0:24

much more succinct than Hallelujah.

0:26

The Leonard never got quite the amount of attention that his

0:29

peers did, Like Bob Dylan and Paul Simon, he

0:31

was every bit the poet they are. Cohen

0:34

died in twenty sixteen, less than a month after

0:36

the release of his last album. It was a project

0:38

recorded in his modest duplex in the mid Wiltshire

0:41

neighborhood of Los Angeles. Leonard

0:43

made the album with his son, Adam Cohen. It

0:45

wasn't meant to be his last work, but it felt

0:47

like a fitting end until this turned up.

0:50

While morning his father's death, Adam took some of the

0:52

poetry Lenard had recorded and set

0:54

it to music, And now, very

0:56

unexpectedly, we have a brand new album

0:59

from Leonard co called

1:01

Thanks for the Dance. This

1:07

is broken record liner notes for the

1:09

digital age. I'm justin

1:12

Richmond. Just

1:15

a quick note here. You can listen to

1:17

all of the music mentioned in this episode on

1:19

our playlist, which you can find a link to

1:22

in the show notes for licensing

1:24

reasons. Each time a song is referenced

1:26

in this episode, you'll hear this

1:29

sound effect. All

1:31

right. Enjoyed the episode. Rick

1:34

Reuben knew Leonard Cohen for about a decade before

1:36

it is passing. Afterwards, Leonard's

1:38

son Adam reached out to Rick wanted

1:40

to tell him a story about his father, the one you're about

1:43

to hear. When's the last time we saw

1:45

each other? I was

1:47

trying to remember. It feels like so long,

1:50

ill go all

1:52

of it. I was trying to remember.

1:55

I mean, I know the feeling that I was

1:57

left with in

2:01

that story that my dad always used to tell about

2:03

you, and you became the brunt of a of

2:07

almost like a punchline. But

2:10

now the whole thing's dissipated into a general

2:12

tapestry and feeling of you

2:14

know, I guess a

2:16

mix, a cocktail, a blend

2:19

of maybe

2:22

inaccuracies and feelings mixed

2:24

together. But I want to try

2:26

to summon if it's appropriate,

2:29

Yes, the story about you. Hey,

2:32

tell me the story as you remember it.

2:34

It has something to do with his

2:38

general feeling about himself not

2:42

being a

2:44

stallion in the race of show

2:46

business. And

2:49

by that I mean he would refer

2:52

to other guys he came up with, whether

2:54

it's Christopherson or Bayez

2:56

or Janie or Dylan or all

2:58

the cats that are coming up in his era

3:01

as knowing what to do. He would say,

3:04

these guys know what to do. All I've ever known

3:06

is that a black in a page. You would say,

3:09

that's where you have to understand that context

3:11

before it. Rick Rubin enters into the

3:13

conversation. So then then the question

3:16

is two guys sitting at

3:18

a table and some music

3:20

industry related question emerges,

3:23

and he says, I don't know, Adam. I mean they are like

3:25

we should ask Rick, you know, like Rick Rubin

3:27

would know this, And

3:29

so very quickly that

3:33

morphs into any question

3:37

that we have ask Rick, ask

3:39

Rick. You know, I come to him

3:41

with a genuine question, Dad, you know, what should I

3:44

do about this if it's music related?

3:46

And then it turns a new punchline. He said, you know,

3:48

Adam, you know what I'm about to say, ask

3:51

Rick Rubin, And of course you know

3:54

I hadn't met you know, It's so funny.

3:56

I get and as I said, I didn't

3:59

know any of this till you told me this after your

4:01

dad passed. Yeah, And so I felt like I had to track

4:03

you down on the off chance he was

4:05

right. You know, I have to ask Rick, and

4:08

I have subsequently asked you on many

4:10

occasions, and you've proven right every time.

4:12

Wow. So thank you pretty good in my

4:14

pleasure. It's an amazing story. It makes me laugh

4:16

every time to tell

4:19

me about the new your

4:22

dad's newest project. I know it's not

4:24

incredible, it's so cool. I

4:28

suppose that the

4:30

most gratifying part,

4:32

other than the fact that it wasn't a humiliating

4:34

disaster, and the fact that it's

4:36

resonant and that I think it's beautiful

4:39

and people are responding to it so favorably,

4:42

I think the

4:44

headline is the

4:47

person after person who

4:49

hears it. One

4:51

of the most gratifying things that is said

4:53

of it time and time again is that they

4:55

feel like, oh my god, Leonard Cohen is

4:58

is still here. He's speaking

5:00

to us still and with

5:02

this message

5:05

in tow with this beautiful

5:07

offering and this command of language,

5:10

this inimitable gift

5:12

that he's always had, still having it. Of

5:14

course, I could go into detail because I have to

5:16

tell me about the specifics

5:18

of the making of it, like how

5:21

did it how did the idea come

5:24

start? From the beginning, Well,

5:26

the first thing that happened was my

5:29

old man passed away, and I

5:31

live about seven

5:33

hundred and fifty meters down the same street

5:36

where you visited. And

5:40

I'm left with this notion that

5:44

one of the ways in which I can visit with him

5:47

so palpably as opposed to so

5:50

many other people who lose a parent or someone.

5:52

I've got all these recordings and

5:55

they are the sum of his being

5:58

in many instances. They are this some

6:00

of what he practiced to

6:03

be in this world, and

6:05

they are literally his words,

6:07

his voice, and recordings. And

6:11

at one point I had of desperation

6:14

and a

6:16

tiny pinch of courage. I

6:19

dared to open up two sessions

6:21

in my backyard and

6:24

I just wanted to sit with him. I missed him,

6:30

and it was a way of

6:33

of conversing, of remaining in

6:35

dialogue with the guy. That

6:37

was the beginning. And

6:40

then something really unexpected and

6:42

magical happened. A

6:44

record is not a fete complete,

6:47

you know. Even good songs do not

6:49

result in good

6:52

recordings. Even in your

6:54

hands. It doesn't matter if the artist and the song

6:56

and the producer and the musicians. It

6:58

is not a guarantee of any anything. And

7:00

so the fact that that a

7:02

record actually emerged, that's finished, and that's

7:05

resonant, and that's emotional, and that's truthful,

7:07

it's not in my hands. I don't have the qualifications

7:10

to do that. It emerged

7:14

and it's it's out

7:16

of our control. Yeah,

7:18

And so I have two strikes

7:21

against me for this record in terms of my actual

7:24

true participation. You know, One

7:27

is that I neither have great

7:29

and esteemed credentials. And

7:32

two, this wasn't my record.

7:35

You know, I wasn't trying to make my choices.

7:38

I was trying to at all times because

7:40

of this conversation that I was in, I

7:44

say, like, Dad, would do you like this? Is

7:46

this what you would do? Is

7:49

this truthful? And

7:52

so it eliminated this tragic

7:57

layer that we often impose on ourselves

7:59

of doubt. It was I

8:01

don't have to consult myself. All I

8:03

have to do is consult him. He

8:06

was very clear about what he didn't didn't like. And

8:08

that's the great advantage that I had over people

8:10

who are like you for example, I knew

8:12

what he hated, of course, you know,

8:15

you know what's interesting. Never thought about this

8:17

before. But for any

8:19

other artist this would

8:21

be a more difficult process. But

8:24

because Leonard's music always

8:28

essentially started with the poetry

8:32

and that was the basis of

8:34

the greatness of the songs, the

8:37

heavy lifting was already done. So

8:41

this is the best example

8:43

of being able to make something really

8:46

truthful to him,

8:49

where the participation that he already

8:51

did really is the key.

8:55

Yeah, I was thinking

8:57

that on the drive up here. Know,

9:00

there's a there's a song called the Goal,

9:02

which is it's literally no

9:05

more than a minute long. And

9:08

his reading, which had

9:10

no music, it was just a reading. His

9:13

reading sounds like a Thesbian

9:16

from the other side of the world. The

9:19

command of language, the cinematic

9:22

transport of quality. And then

9:24

to end, you know, by saying, and

9:27

no one to follow, nothing to teach except

9:30

that the goal falls

9:32

short of the reach. So

9:36

beautiful, amazing,

9:39

it's amazing. I

9:44

wholeheartedly agree. It's so wonderful

9:46

that that exists, and

9:50

it's so true. What a truthful

9:52

position that he had.

9:56

I can see him sitting in his little

9:59

fedor and in his suit, staring

10:01

at his window, returning

10:04

a neighbor's smile with that sense

10:06

of defeat. But at

10:08

the same time, the

10:11

word defeat to people has

10:14

this binary quality. To most

10:16

people, it's measured against winning, for

10:18

example. But to him, it was

10:20

part of this thesis that he had

10:22

that his whole life was about, which is brokenness,

10:25

broken hallelujah, the crack and

10:27

everything, the whole notion that

10:30

defeat and imperfection and brokenness

10:33

was the fabric of the experience.

10:36

And then instead of just you

10:39

know, having a plaintiff assertion

10:42

that the real generosity was to write

10:44

about it in a way that you hadn't considered with

10:47

generosity, with voluptuousness, with

10:49

inventiveness, and then you know, you

10:51

could, on top of it said, it's to a melody,

10:54

you know, like a like what nicotine

10:57

is in a cigarette, Like it's a nicotine delivery

10:59

system. He was giving you, like a transcendent

11:02

delivery system. That's what he was trying to do.

11:04

Every time he would hate that I

11:06

said that, But that's

11:08

what I think he was trying to do. What

11:11

was it like growing up with him, I'm

11:13

trying to spend with him

11:15

in through childhood. Yeah,

11:19

I don't know that that's a question that I

11:21

can answer in

11:25

a complete manner, you know. I

11:28

mean the

11:30

immediate answer is

11:33

I don't know, because I've only had that, so

11:35

I have nothing else to measure it against. That

11:38

it was incredible now

11:43

that he's gone, and that

11:47

I consult him

11:50

more as a man than a parent,

11:53

and I see him as a as

11:57

a lifetime of choices, fantastic,

12:00

altruistic, amazing, bizarre,

12:02

eccentric, devoted religious

12:07

seeker like choices, I

12:11

find him ever more remarkable. And the fact

12:13

that he was able to, you know, remain

12:16

in his children's lives despite

12:18

it not really being an appetite

12:21

of his at the beginning. But

12:24

for me, there was this torture

12:27

of what he called the family

12:30

business. Now he could

12:32

call it the family business, and he would

12:34

say all the Cohen boys and the family business,

12:36

and you know, but if I dared

12:38

say the family business, you know, he

12:40

would say, like, what do you mean family business?

12:43

You know, you're you know. It was

12:46

it was this endless geyser

12:49

of support and understanding. I

12:51

mean, he would lean over my he would

12:53

lean over my notebook and give me suggestions.

12:56

He would, you know, he would say, this is what you

12:58

got to do. You know, although you gotta

13:00

ask Rick because I don't know. But

13:06

and at the same time, you know, I remember I when

13:09

in Instagram came around and I

13:12

my handle was his commander

13:14

Cohen and he found out about it. So

13:16

you're stealing my identity, I

13:19

said, Dad, what are you talking about?

13:21

You know, like you were saying it laughingly?

13:24

That's the thing. No, you

13:26

know, he was. He was like, for

13:29

example, there wasn't there was an article in which,

13:31

you know, I had

13:33

said like kind of something

13:35

like, look, there's

13:37

no one like Leonard Cohen, but

13:41

I'm like a certainly on the mainland,

13:44

but I'm the closest thing to it, if

13:46

you know, we're talking about way off shore, distant

13:49

little you know, distant little

13:51

eyelets. And he said, what are you

13:53

talking about? Your the closest thing to Leonard

13:55

Cohen? You know, this

13:57

is the kind of I don't know. I

14:00

don't know whether he was as

14:02

irritated as the tone indicated,

14:05

but again it

14:08

was also accompanied by this, you know,

14:10

Dad, I quit, I don't want to be your producer.

14:12

This is ridiculous, said Dad. He says, Adam, where

14:14

are you going? I can't do this without you, you

14:16

know. So there was this wonderful

14:21

and constant contradiction. You

14:23

know, like I referred

14:25

to his music one time in a magazine as mytho

14:28

romantic, and I thought, oh my

14:30

god, this is so perfect. It really is mytho

14:32

romantic. I mean, you know, the idea

14:34

that that woman is God and God is

14:36

woman, and and and you know,

14:40

the be the

14:42

the cathedral that his words

14:44

are echoing in of, and that he built

14:47

stone by stone, word by word. And

14:49

he says, he says, remind me to

14:51

reduce your uh to

14:54

a couple of words, kid, you know, and I'm

14:56

like, Dad, what are you talking about it? You know, mytho

14:58

romantic. It's good. And then you

15:00

know, two Sabbath

15:03

dinners later, he's like my son who coined

15:05

the term mytho romantic, putting his

15:07

arm around me. This is this

15:09

is crazy and exactly.

15:11

And of course none of it was malicious, and I didn't.

15:14

I never felt like it was in an episode of succession

15:16

where I was gonna, you know, like he was gonna try to

15:18

kill me. But given

15:20

the modesty, it goes back to your original question,

15:22

which was, like, what was it like living with him? He

15:25

was so modest, he was so

15:27

down on earth, I mean, this is a guy who lived in a

15:30

an apartment and I drove

15:32

a nineteen eighty four Nissan

15:35

Pathfinder whose

15:37

battery need to be jumped every morning, you

15:40

know. I mean, yes, he did go

15:42

through a five

15:45

thousand dollar can of caviar,

15:48

you know, and in the same afternoon, and

15:51

he did have a propensity for Hebrew national

15:54

kosher salami. But it

15:57

was this elegant old world

16:00

man who I

16:03

think the reason I stumbled in answering

16:05

you earlier was because it

16:07

provoked such a feeling. And the feeling is

16:09

this, he had

16:12

so many distinguishing characteristics

16:15

that I wished I could find in myself

16:19

that it was never oppressive,

16:22

but it was unachievable,

16:25

unachievable for most anybody, for sure.

16:28

But he liked you, though, and

16:32

often said things of that nature

16:35

about you. To me incredible,

16:37

Yeah, but you know what I mean. I mean,

16:39

we're talking about a kind of larger than lifeness.

16:42

And at the same time, he was this little

16:45

jew who wrote the Bible, you

16:47

know. Yeah, can you talk a little bit about his spirituality?

16:52

Not in a way he would approve

16:54

of as you saw it your perspective.

16:57

I think he was a seeker. I think he just

16:59

had an appetite. You know, if I was to two

17:02

cent psychoanalyze him, i'd i'd

17:05

say, a guy who loses his father at

17:09

the age of nine years old is always

17:11

looking for something, and in

17:13

this case it was the

17:16

archetypal man, the

17:19

source of strength and wisdom. And

17:22

although he found pillars of that strength

17:24

and wisdom within certain segments

17:26

of Judaism, he also found it in Christianity

17:29

and Catherine Tata and in

17:32

several masters that he followed along

17:34

the way, and in wine, and

17:36

in women, and in song and

17:39

in listen. He met my mother while

17:41

he was in scientology for a brief moment with

17:43

el Ron Hubbard, I mean, anything, anything

17:46

goes if it's got a little bit of

17:48

a buzz speed, absinthe,

17:52

medical marijuana, whatever.

17:55

Yeah. I remember him always offering absinthe

17:57

whenever I would see him. Yeah, he liked

18:00

I Yeah, he loved it and

18:03

didn't have to be with a substance. He

18:06

just loved to let go of

18:10

that fascining, that oppressive

18:12

fascinating that we that

18:15

we do almost involuntarily to

18:17

the center of ourselves, which is not even

18:19

a very pleasant place to be. Remember

18:24

asking him if he if he read

18:26

any of the newer poets,

18:30

and he said that he only

18:33

reads spiritual texts.

18:35

Now, he doesn't

18:37

look at anything. He's not interested in

18:39

anything beyond spiritual texts. That

18:41

was interesting. Yeah,

18:46

I didn't follow too closely what he was reading

18:49

other than what he would tell me, and there

18:51

was a I think he's

18:55

again, these are all admissions that I'm having

18:57

trouble making, because you

18:59

know, I sort of feel like he would

19:01

say, Jesus Adam, you're incorrigible. I mean, I

19:03

don't demystify me. I've spent my whole

19:05

life putting veils up. But

19:09

I think he had forfeited reading

19:14

for the irresistible ease

19:17

of online publications

19:20

of lectures online. And I know that he

19:22

was following some pretty wacky folks,

19:26

you know, from from rabbis and seeks

19:28

to Hindu gurus,

19:31

and you know, he was deep, deep

19:33

into listening to people

19:35

speaking. Yeah, he invited

19:37

me to see Rabbi Findley with him several

19:40

times. I've still have not yet

19:42

done it. Still, let's go, let's

19:44

go, let's go one of these days. He's He's

19:46

a beautiful, robust,

19:48

interesting, charismatic character.

19:51

Ex marine from

19:53

Irish descent who became incredibly

19:56

versed and and all things Jewish,

19:59

but with a with a really modern and

20:02

moderate bent.

20:05

Very cool that after

20:08

the break will debut a song from Lennon Cohen's

20:10

new album, Thanks for the Dance. We're

20:17

back with Adam Cohen. Should we

20:19

talk a little bit about the

20:23

the album before this one,

20:24

the last one he was

20:27

present for. Well, that was beautiful for me, and

20:30

not just because the record

20:33

turned out beautifully and all

20:36

that my father passed away only three

20:38

weeks after it came out. He

20:40

did get to, you know, when he played it for you came

20:43

over to the house, or when

20:45

he played it for people whose opinion he was

20:47

seeking, or with whom he just wanted

20:50

to share the music, and then eventually the world

20:53

that that a collect

20:55

you know, this is where it's He

20:59

was such an unset, intimental guy that

21:01

I almost feel like I'm trespassing. But

21:04

for me, it was sentimental to

21:06

be summoned to work with my

21:08

father in whose

21:11

footsteps I tried with clumsiness

21:14

to follow, to

21:17

go from basically

21:20

glorified coffee boy, you

21:22

know, in the basement of the building, to ending

21:24

up in the penthouse making boardroom

21:27

decisions with the boss except

21:29

the Boss was in a medical chair,

21:31

you know, in his living room

21:34

in mid Wilshire. To

21:39

to actually having this resonant music,

21:41

to to

21:43

wrestling with the Master and and

21:47

not getting creamed. And in fact, you

21:51

know, when another

21:54

thing that when you came up in conversation,

21:57

you know, and and and pardon me for the oversimplified,

22:00

but when when he would say, you know,

22:02

Rick or or Don Was or

22:04

Dan Lan, they want they want me to go back,

22:06

They want me to they

22:08

want me to literally regress to

22:11

making you know, an

22:13

old Leonard Cohen album with just nylon

22:15

string guitars and stuff like. I don't want to do that,

22:18

you know, like I'm not a museum piece. I'm not

22:20

even particularly nostalgic. But

22:23

of course I believe that you

22:25

were right, and and that

22:28

that desire for Leonard Cohen

22:30

to tickle that

22:33

and evoke that sense that we have in

22:36

our mind's eye of what Leonard Cohen is not

22:39

just not

22:41

just spiritually, not just lyrically,

22:43

but also sonically in terms of the architecture

22:45

that accompanies him

22:47

was such a strong desire. And when

22:50

he finally was

22:53

weak enough to

22:56

relent and allow that just

22:58

for a second, especially with this his son

23:04

to have that nylon string

23:07

guitar come back to

23:10

quiet the background vocals

23:13

and excavate enough space for him

23:16

in the verses so that the narratorship

23:18

was unchallenged and

23:22

they could go back to that other union

23:24

that he had created, which is at Yin

23:27

and Yang, where he has this masculine

23:29

baritone narrator narratorship

23:32

and then there's this incredible generous

23:34

complicitness from the female backgrounds.

23:37

So there's this union and

23:39

this is an architecture that he helped

23:42

excavate, so

23:44

to restore that. But at

23:46

the end of his life, with that gravity,

23:49

with that somberness, with that sharpness,

23:53

with that courage to go into the

23:55

darkness and come back with a little, a

23:57

little parcel of truth that he had, it

24:04

was incredibly outifying, you know, and touching

24:06

for me. And you mentioned

24:09

his medical chair. When I came to visit him, he

24:13

literally looked like a king in the throne. It

24:15

was unbelievable. He was so elegantly

24:18

dressed as always, yes,

24:22

but so beautiful and sitting in

24:24

this grand chair in this small

24:27

space. Yeah, it

24:29

really took my breath away. Every time I visited

24:31

him, it was always, it was always

24:33

thrilling for me, but maybe

24:36

even more so than and

24:38

none of us. I mean, I certainly didn't

24:40

know that he was going anytime soon, because we were

24:42

already talking about what

24:44

he was going to do next. It's like he already

24:47

told me he was excited. He was writing for the next album,

24:49

which is which is

24:51

now happening. Yeah, yeah,

24:55

yeah, No, he was living you know. I often said

24:58

to my friend here Michael again

25:00

mixed and recorded both

25:03

that record and this one. You know, I said,

25:05

like, you know, he's staying alive for this. This

25:07

is the only thing he's living for. And

25:10

often, unfortunately that

25:13

statement was made, or that declaration was

25:16

was uttered when we were going

25:18

nowhere, and it just felt

25:20

like he was stalling. And it was like, Dad,

25:23

we get it. When you finished this

25:25

record, you're gonna you're gonna let go, But

25:28

only when you finished the work. He was

25:30

a pit bull at the sleeve of this mission,

25:32

whether it was blackening pages or finishing

25:35

a lyric and then refinishing

25:37

it, you know. But it was this indelible

25:40

and very

25:42

clear sense that he was living

25:44

for the work. That's all he was living, and that

25:46

was that was why when he played

25:49

me the new finished work, The

25:51

first thing I said was, so, what's

25:54

the next song going to be? Like? What the you

25:57

know, have you started on the next album? Yet

25:59

knowing that he needed that,

26:01

Yeah, and knowing that we want to hear that it's good

26:03

for everybody. Did

26:06

he did he do that thing that he did

26:08

he sometimes we do almost

26:11

like a magician with a card trick. Did

26:13

he dispense on

26:15

you lyrics that he was working on? Yeah?

26:18

Wasn't that just magical? Yeah? I mean one

26:20

of the things I missed the most is, you

26:23

know, dropping by and having

26:25

him without a tell

26:27

a prompter. I mean, we're talking about a man who

26:30

is literally swimming in Tom's

26:32

and Tom's and Tom's of not just words,

26:34

but like heavy con dentse

26:37

and delicious language,

26:40

and for him to pull him out, you

26:43

know, and it doesn't matter whether it's pulling out Blake

26:45

or Shakespeare or his own work, the

26:48

lucidity and the sharpness right

26:50

to the end. But

26:53

then to hear the deliciousness of a concoction

26:55

that he was, you know, in the in the throes of

26:58

you know, wasn't that it? Isn't

27:01

that just a delicious number? Believably unbelievably

27:03

thrilling and I'm sure over the years there

27:06

were many that you got to hear that maybe

27:08

never came to Well, you know, it's funny

27:11

you say that, because on this record I

27:14

had to beg him. I said, Dad, you know that song Puppets,

27:17

just just speak it. I know you,

27:19

I've known you are not co signing.

27:21

You don't believe that there's music that exists

27:23

for this, or Night of Santiago, or

27:27

there's several others where I said, just

27:30

just read it, read it to

27:32

a to a metronome. Yes,

27:34

we'll figure that out later, but don't not

27:37

speak this into a microphone.

27:39

Yes, And that's

27:41

how delicious some of those moments were. You

27:43

know, Yeah, there's some unfortunately I didn't

27:45

get. In fact, the last

27:47

song on this album,

27:50

it's called Listen

27:53

to the Hummingbird. And

27:55

we were done with a record and

27:58

Michael and I were in Berlin at a festival

28:01

called People Festival, which is organized

28:03

by justin Vernon, Bonniver and

28:07

the Desners from the National and

28:13

Bonnie Beer's music was We were sharing

28:15

a studio and they were We had a shared

28:17

wall and all of these incredible

28:20

moving evocketive sonics

28:22

were coming through the wall and instead

28:24

of hating him and resenting him for interrupting

28:27

what would otherwise have been our session. We

28:29

were inspired and

28:32

and we said our so oh my goodness. The

28:36

very last time this

28:38

man spoke in public, he

28:42

impromptu did what we're talking

28:44

about. He said, hey, do you want to hear something I'm working

28:46

on? And he read

28:49

into a fifty eight in a

28:51

halligen lit conference room a

28:53

press event, he read out loud

28:55

this poem, and we

28:59

remember it. Contacted,

29:03

Sony said, is there any way you could locate

29:05

that one moment in that Prince conference, turn it

29:07

into a wave file, send it to us, and

29:10

with this stuff coming

29:12

through the shared wall, we compose

29:14

this, uh, this track. Yeah,

29:20

it's such a pleasure hearing him speak.

29:23

It was delicious. Yeah, Yeah,

29:27

I miss it, I really, I really miss it. You

29:29

know. On the last the

29:32

last album was

29:34

that recorded with his band. Nothing

29:38

was recorded with his band. No

29:41

with the sort of sonic defining

29:44

characteristic of the last record.

29:47

Not this new one was

29:50

a men's choir that's

29:53

also on this on

29:55

this album. In fact, on this album

29:58

there's a song called Puppets, where

30:03

it boldly starts with German

30:07

puppets, burnt the Jews, Jewish

30:10

puppets did not choose. I mean,

30:13

this is an arresting and

30:16

bold beginning to any lyric that

30:19

arguably should maybe not even be in a song.

30:23

But that men's

30:26

choir, the Jewish men's choir, and

30:28

this Berlin based German

30:30

choir are both on the song, and

30:33

they're both singing, let's listen to that.

30:35

That's pretty it's a pretty wacky one. Okay.

30:40

He seems to be saying, we're all puppets, Yes,

30:44

sir. Yeah.

30:47

He was studying with this guy called Balsakar

30:51

in India where he would he

30:54

would go after Roshi, his zen

30:57

teacher, passed away,

31:00

and the thesis of Balsakar,

31:04

which he was really taken by at the end

31:07

and became his sort of central

31:09

spiritual backbone, was

31:11

there is no doer. There

31:14

is no doer whatsoever. It's

31:16

a kind of fatalistic, but

31:19

without the oppressiveness of the word fatalist,

31:22

This idea that it's

31:24

all written by some program.

31:31

So puppets for sure, but even

31:33

but even smaller than puppets. You

31:36

know, he would often say, you

31:38

can read every word on the page,

31:40

you just can't change any of them

31:43

in the script of your life. And

31:45

also speaks to the

31:48

resignment in the lyric that

31:50

you quoted earlier of waving to

31:52

the neighbor, and yeah, the resignation

31:54

of I

31:58

sit in my chair, I look at the street. The

32:00

neighbor returns my smile

32:02

of defeat. I move with the leaves,

32:05

I shine with the chrome. I'm

32:07

almost alive. I'm almost at

32:09

home. Yeah. And also

32:12

it relates to the we

32:16

were talking about in the in the in the making

32:18

of art process, the fact that it's out of our

32:20

control. It all, it's it's

32:23

all, it's

32:26

all one thing. Do

32:29

you know what I'm saying? Again, I

32:32

go back to being

32:35

infuriated by his contradictions.

32:37

I just have another another story

32:39

again. You know. I finished a record at

32:41

one point, and I met him at Starbucks

32:44

on will Sharon Lebrea,

32:48

and I had this big declaration to him

32:50

for which I was, I think, seeking validation

32:53

and maybe even a compliment. I

32:55

said, Dad. Once we were sat

32:57

with coffees in the sun, I said, Dad, I'm

33:01

I'm scrapping the entire record. I'm gonna start over.

33:05

And I thought he would put his hand on

33:07

my shoulder and say, like my son, you know,

33:09

like the Kipling poem, you know, he

33:13

says, what an amateur move. He says

33:15

to me, I said, Dad,

33:18

what are you talking about? He says?

33:22

He says, it's show business man. It's

33:26

not how you feel about the work. It's

33:28

about how you make us feel about the work.

33:31

Has nothing to do with all truistic you

33:33

know, like that the writing is that, yes,

33:36

you know, like be truthful while you're writing, seek,

33:38

you know, to be stirred by the muses.

33:41

But once you're recording, I mean that isn't

33:44

that is an act of pandering

33:47

you have You have to go the whole hog,

33:50

he says. You think I mean it every night

33:52

when I'm on my knees singing Hallelujah.

33:55

You think Mick means it every night when he's

33:57

singing. You know, I can't get no, he says,

33:59

in like, the true generosity

34:02

is to not care whether you do or don't mean

34:04

it, you know. And then I'm thinking,

34:06

like, wait a minute, that whole I've

34:11

been in the studio with you now, and

34:14

I see how many times you have

34:17

trashed and begun again and not

34:19

accepted and stalled, and so

34:21

wait a minute, you know again,

34:23

these infuriating, diametrically

34:28

opposed and battling notions.

34:32

Remember that Michael, publish

34:35

your parish, publish your parish.

34:37

He said. He just kept on repeating that,

34:39

get off the get off the pot. I'd

34:41

say, well, what about you, dad, You

34:43

know, like twelve years to finish a song.

34:46

You know, I'd say, oh, yeah, well I was

34:48

getting it right. I

34:53

think he was telling you what he

34:55

wanted to tell himself. I

34:58

also think that they're is a

35:01

is it. I'm not much of a sports fan, but

35:04

it's a there's a there's

35:06

a thing that boxers say to each other.

35:08

They say, there's levels to this. You

35:11

know, just because Ali

35:13

can do it doesn't mean you can. Just

35:16

because Floyd Mayweather can do it, doesn't mean you

35:18

can. And I don't

35:21

mean to suggest that he was as

35:23

callous and conceded

35:26

as to imply that that as clearly

35:28

as I'm indicating, but I think he was

35:30

saying, look, when you're writing

35:33

psalms of King David like I am, you

35:35

know you can afford to take your time. I don't think he's

35:37

saying that, okay, I know. I don't think

35:39

thank you for assuaging my concern. No, no, no,

35:42

I think he's saying he's

35:45

telling you what he needs to hear. That's

35:48

what I think was happening. He was

35:50

giving you his best advice that

35:53

he was not able to take for himself.

35:56

I don't know, Rick, I don't. That doesn't

35:58

resonate as true, and I'm

36:00

not I think you might be too close.

36:02

Yeah, it might be too close. I don't feel like myself

36:05

bucking you know, or or tangling

36:07

antlers with you, because that's that's

36:10

I don't have the stature to win it that there's

36:12

no winning. There's no by the way, there's no competition

36:15

but sharing ideas. But I do, But I

36:17

do believe that that's not true. And I'll tell

36:20

you why.

36:24

I myself, I don't believe in

36:26

the idea of all things equal. And

36:29

in fact, I believe that

36:34

you know what, the definition of the word miracle

36:36

is a breach in the law of nature.

36:39

Yes, he was a

36:41

breach in the law of nature. Yes,

36:43

he can allow himself exception.

36:46

That's what he was. And to

36:49

go to another sort of analogous for the

36:51

sisterhood of that idea would be the

36:53

words scarcity. You know, the idea

36:55

that that something is

36:57

is something's value is directly

37:00

measured by how little of it there is.

37:03

And he was not a prolific

37:05

man, and unlike Dylan,

37:07

who was you know, who just spat them out. You

37:10

know, he was chiseling at marble, and

37:15

he would always refer to himself as slow, but

37:18

it was never disparagingly. Yes,

37:21

there was a methodical conscious.

37:23

There was a notion from a young man. If you

37:25

go back to his journals, and which I have,

37:28

unfortunately you know, or fortunately had

37:30

to do. I'm so buried in all things learned going

37:32

these days. But

37:35

there was this sense that he had this mandate

37:38

from Geez dash

37:40

d to go into the darkness,

37:43

and we

37:46

don't all have that. That would be that

37:49

would be presumptuous and arrogant. Do

37:52

you do you think he included himself

37:54

in the puppets in the song that we just absolutely

37:57

yes, okay, yes, yes,

37:59

you're but

38:02

but again there's puppet mountains

38:04

and there's puppet mole hills, yes, okay,

38:07

okay, we have yes, Okay, yes, yes, I'm

38:10

not I'm not thinking that he thought

38:12

less of himself in any way, and I'm not

38:14

thinking that, and I'm I

38:16

will tell you, I don't think he looked

38:19

down on your work versus his work. I don't

38:21

believe that. Well, that would be crazy, Rick,

38:24

I don't believe that. I just

38:26

don't believe that I

38:28

promised that on the drive home. I'll think more about

38:30

this, Yeah, because

38:33

I think for

38:35

as, I

38:38

think he clearly knew

38:41

he was great, but

38:43

he also saw

38:46

all of the downsides. I

38:48

don't think that he saw anything as perfect.

38:51

No, so, and I'm

38:54

that's why I'm thinking. I don't

38:58

think he thought about things by rank. I

39:00

don't think, but I don't know. Yeah, No, I

39:02

in general I got that from it. Yeah,

39:04

Well, he wasn't in the position of he was one of

39:06

the least judgmental characters I've ever met. So

39:09

for that I agree. But understanding

39:15

things place and resonance, and

39:17

understanding that some

39:20

things were whispers and

39:22

some things were seismic

39:24

tremors. For example, he would

39:26

say, I'm not one of the

39:28

big guys, but

39:31

I do understand that I have you

39:33

know, I think

39:35

he would say, my

39:37

little toe in the door jam

39:39

of the annals of history. Yes, and

39:43

so this was a sense of modesty, but a

39:45

sense of place. Yes, I

39:48

think it's realistic. You know, he was realistic. But

39:51

boy,

39:54

the exception that he was that

39:58

as his contemporary

40:01

aged out or are aging

40:03

out that their offerings,

40:07

their little wild bouquets that they're still holding,

40:10

have less and less pertinence and have

40:12

more and more of that sense of

40:14

like being a nostalgia act, and that

40:17

he as opposed to them,

40:19

remained so vital. And

40:21

it was I think it was because he was really

40:24

clawing his way up, you

40:26

know, with his deteriorating, little

40:28

frail body, even clawing

40:31

his way and really speaking from the

40:33

rank at which he found himself. Yes,

40:35

you know he was. Really. He wasn't trying to say baby,

40:37

baby, baby. He was trying to say, we kill

40:39

the flame, if that's what you want, my lord. You

40:42

know he was, he was really, he

40:45

wasn't revisiting anything. That's why he took

40:47

offense to some notions that he'd

40:49

go backwards. You know, he was trying

40:51

to remain vital. Yeah. I

40:54

don't think I ever got to explain

40:56

it well to him, but my version

40:59

of him going backwards tell me so I can tell him

41:01

later. Okay, had more to

41:04

do with his

41:09

songwriting changed in a way

41:13

that became

41:15

more punchline based over time,

41:20

and his earlier songs didn't have

41:22

that, And I missed the songs without

41:25

the punchlines and that would have been my one

41:27

request, if to

41:29

think about writing songs that didn't

41:31

rely on the punchline,

41:35

because I think once he fell

41:38

into that, I think

41:40

it made it easier to write the songs for him.

41:43

It was a it was an organizing

41:45

principle that made the having

41:49

that structure was easier

41:51

to work work towards. Yeah,

41:54

he would refer to it as you

41:56

would often talk about Arthur Miller and

41:58

how the plays got short and shorter,

42:01

but the impact didn't. And

42:04

you know how his life

42:07

energy was different and anything

42:09

that allowed for the juice to

42:11

keep flowing was was more vital

42:13

than anything. So you know, however

42:15

you got there, you just got to keep on getting

42:17

there. So I do also

42:19

see the economy. But

42:22

you know, the funny thing is what

42:24

error are you speaking? Of Course, his earlier

42:27

work had this kind of languid, you

42:30

know, such deep voluptuousness,

42:33

and then you know, by the time even he

42:35

was doing Hallelujah, that was

42:37

a lot more terse, a lot more economic.

42:39

And then by the time he was doing There's a Crack and everything,

42:42

that's how the light gets and that he had found that

42:44

voice that he remained with to the

42:46

end. In otherwids. It wasn't a forfeiture of

42:48

poetry, but it was

42:51

an economy. I love your term

42:54

punchline, because he did look

42:56

for them, I know, but never

42:59

succumbing to what he would call slogan earring.

43:01

He would he would always want it. He would try to raise

43:04

above, rise above slogans. Yes,

43:06

you know, and he would always say to me, you

43:08

know, like I take the inner life

43:11

really seriously. Yes, And I think

43:13

that's why it resonates so much to us, because you

43:15

know, this man is not slogan earring.

43:17

He is tapping into something. He's mining

43:20

where you dare not go for sure.

43:22

How many albums did he make I

43:25

don't gosh, I don't know in total,

43:28

at twelve, thirteen, fourteen.

43:31

And that's interesting too, because if we were to

43:33

compare him to any of his contemporaries,

43:36

there were fewer, much fewer, oh

43:38

yeah, much much much fewer. Yeah,

43:42

you know, one probably one fifth,

43:44

yes, yes, yeah.

43:48

That reminds me of the I think it's the Cummings

43:51

quote. It says every artist

43:53

has an embarrassingly slim cartridge

43:55

of good work. I think

43:58

he was very aware of that and kind

44:01

of eschewed some of the pitfalls

44:04

of what my friend reminded

44:06

me here of publisher Parish. You know, he

44:08

almost did perish a few times waiting

44:10

to publish. But the good thing

44:12

is that he emerged with these diamonds and his gems

44:16

coming up after the break, one more gem

44:18

from Leonard Cohen and his son Adam.

44:24

We're back with more. Rick Ruman's conversation with

44:26

Adam Cohen. Okay, it happens

44:28

to the heart. Is

44:31

is the Alma Mata. It's the thing he

44:33

was obsessively working on. If

44:35

you came over, there would be no

44:38

pads and scraps of paper everywhere,

44:40

and it was the thing he was the

44:43

most consumed with. We

44:45

didn't get it, he didn't get it on

44:48

you want it Darker, and he kept on working on it. And

44:56

it was one of the first songs, one of the first

44:58

two songs that uh we

45:02

pulled up when we were in my backyard.

45:07

And it

45:10

does sort of surmise

45:13

the perch from which he was looking at life,

45:17

the strange modesty

45:21

and yet captain

45:25

hood of his own life that he was claiming.

45:29

I guess we could play that one. Still incredible,

45:36

beautiful. I'm so glad you made it.

45:39

I'm so glad we did it. I can't believe he's

45:41

he's still speaking to us. Yeah, it's

45:43

so beautiful. Lenda

45:47

Cohen's new album, Thinks for the Dances out everywhere

45:50

on November twenty seven. And check out

45:52

a list of some of our favorite Lennon Cohen's songs

45:54

by visiting Broken Record podcasts dot

45:56

com, subscribing to our playlist for this episode,

45:59

and when the album's out, we'll put it up there for you too.

46:01

You can also sign up for a behind the scenes newsletter,

46:04

Why You're There. Broken Record is produced

46:06

with help from Jason Gambrell and Miil Lobell. Our

46:08

theme music is by the great Kenny Beats. Stay

46:11

tuned for next week's episode with Norah Jones.

46:13

I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.