0:08

Pushkin. Just

0:12

a quick note here. You can listen to

0:14

all of the music mentioned in this episode on

0:17

our playlist, which you can find a link to

0:19

in the show notes for licensing

0:21

reasons, each time a song is referenced

0:23

in this episode, you'll hear this

0:26

sound effect. All

0:28

right, enjoyed the episode. My

0:31

name is Malcolm Gladwell. Welcome to Broken

0:33

Record. This is the final

0:35

episode of our first season, and

0:38

it's a special episode because it's

0:40

about Tom Petty. Every now and again

0:42

there is an artist who provides the soundtrack

0:44

for his or her generation. I

0:46

think Tom Petty was one of those people. He

0:48

died in October twenty seventeen after

0:51

a fortieth anniversary tour with his band

0:53

The Heartbreakers. Only a few weeks

0:55

after his passing, Rick Rubin and I

0:58

met at Rick Studio to talk about Tom

1:00

Petty, in particular about

1:02

the contrast between that effortless,

1:04

laconic California sound and

1:06

the man behind it. We didn't

1:09

think of this at the time as something that we would turn

1:11

into an episode. We were just sitting

1:13

in the old Bob Dylan tour bus at Shango

1:15

La, drinking tea. I

1:18

was never really a Tom Petty fan growing up. I

1:20

liked more aggressive music before that, punk rock

1:23

and harder things. He was a little melodic

1:25

for my taste. And then The

1:28

Full Moon Fever came out. I

1:31

remember I bought it after I heard maybe the

1:33

third or fourth single, which was

1:35

a lot of singles in a row to be really

1:38

good, to think, Wow, there's something here. It's like,

1:40

this is beyond just a good song. And

1:42

I bought the album, and I remember I listened to it every day,

1:44

over and over. It was the only CD I had in

1:46

my car for probably a year. It's

1:48

perfect driving music. It

1:50

moved Ricks so much that he wanted to work

1:52

with Tom Petty, and when Petty signed

1:54

a new deal with Warner Brothers Records, Moe

1:57

Austin, the head of Warner Brothers, made

1:59

that happen. Between nineteen ninety

2:01

two and nineteen ninety four, Rick and Tom Petty

2:03

recorded a mid career masterpiece

2:06

and one of Petty's favorite records,

2:09

Wildflowers. We started making

2:11

Wildflowers, which is the album in question,

2:14

and part of him

2:16

getting out of his MCA deal a

2:18

record early was to deliver a greatest

2:20

hits record, and part of delivering the greatest hits

2:22

record was to add two new songs to it,

2:25

and it's hard to write a song to fit in with

2:27

the greatest songs you've ever written. It's

2:29

just a difficult task. Almost

2:32

every time that happens, it doesn't work out

2:34

well. And we were already

2:36

working on Wildflowers, and Tom very

2:38

wisely said, you know, I feel like what we're

2:40

making here is a very specific

2:44

body of work, and

2:47

even though we're in the middle of this, if

2:49

we have to do songs for the Greatest Hits album, I'd

2:52

rather do them separately in a separate studio

2:55

and kind of think of it as its own thing.

2:58

So while we were set up it Sounds City working

3:00

on Wildflowers, we set up at

3:03

Oceanway with slightly different

3:05

band. The original drummer of the Heartbreakers was

3:08

in that session, not in the Wildflower

3:10

sessions, so it was the entire

3:13

original Heartbreakers, and

3:15

we did two songs, one

3:18

of which was Last

3:20

Dance with Mary Jane, and that was on

3:22

the Greatest Hits So it was like to write a hit

3:24

to order for the Greatest Hits album

3:26

was an unbelievable feat. And then

3:29

we also recorded at that time with

3:31

those with that band. Maybe

3:34

I want to say we probably recorded about fifty

3:36

songs, just because there was

3:38

such a machine

3:40

of a band. They had been a band their whole

3:43

lives. Have you seen the Peter Bugdanovich

3:45

documentary, Yeah, really

3:47

worth seeing. It's like four hours long, and

3:50

when you watch it you're owed

3:52

by how many great songs he has, Like one after

3:54

it's like, how can there be this many good songs

3:56

from one person? You don't put it

3:58

together that it's all. So the

4:01

band had been a band since they were in high

4:03

school together. All knew each other, they

4:05

knew a million songs. They used to play cover songs.

4:07

So because we had the band in the studio and

4:10

I think Tom was kind of having fun.

4:13

Once we got the heavy lifting out of

4:15

the way of getting the song we needed, he

4:17

said the second song would be a cover song, and

4:19

he thought it would be this thunderclap Newman

4:22

song, which it ended up being. But we recorded,

4:24

as they say, about fifty songs to choose from fifty.

4:27

Probably how unusual is that it's

4:29

not a lot of bands can do it. It's like it's

4:32

you have to be really good to be able to do that.

4:34

But those songs, many

4:36

of which ended up there was a white box set

4:38

called playback. Most of those

4:40

songs were on playback, so it wasn't just

4:43

for I mean we didn't know that. We didn't know they'd

4:45

ever come out. It was just sort of having fun. But

4:47

while they were in there, we thought, let's take advantage

4:49

of let's just play a bunch of songs. What

4:51

was How did they write music? Was it very

4:53

collective? No? It was usually Town with

4:55

an acoustic guitar. More often than not, would

4:58

write a song by himself. Then

5:00

he would often make homemade

5:03

demo with a drum machine and

5:05

put on the parts that he wanted, So

5:08

more often than not, there would be a demo

5:10

that sounded like a less professional

5:13

version of the final that we

5:15

would bring to the band, and then that would be

5:18

the starting point that we'd work. He's writing

5:20

music and lyrics, everything, everything, everything.

5:24

Now the other members of the band contribute

5:26

a tremendous amount, but

5:28

the initial framework was always set by Tom

5:30

First. On occasion, Mike Campbell would

5:32

bring in a guitar, a guitar idea

5:35

first, or maybe even

5:37

a guitar bassed song, and then Tom

5:39

would take that, rework it and make it into a Tom

5:41

Petty song. But probably

5:44

one or two an album. Maybe, is there

5:46

anyone you've worked with who is who compares

5:49

to Petty and so terms of

5:51

how prolific they are, I

5:53

don't know that he was always so prolific. I think

5:55

he would go through phases because I remember there

5:57

were a couple of years where songs were not coming so quickly,

6:00

and when we recorded the fifty songs, they weren't all necessarily

6:03

new songs. A lot of them were songs

6:05

they remember from growing up. Some may have

6:07

been old songs of theirs

6:09

that they never recorded. Some of them may have been Elvis

6:12

songs or just songs they like. How

6:14

long were you in the studio in that for

6:16

the Wildflowers album, we were in

6:18

for around two years, but it wasn't

6:20

every day. It'd be like whenever there was stuff

6:23

to do. So he'd like, he'd

6:25

have five songs and he's like, let's record these five,

6:27

and we'd go in and it would be a couple of weeks of

6:29

work or maybe a month of work to get those five,

6:32

and then he would go back to writing, and

6:34

then maybe two months later there'd be another

6:36

batch. It wouldn't do the same thing, and then at the end

6:39

we would take it all and kind of do

6:41

whatever it took to get him done. So

6:44

you get him in one of his fertile

6:46

periods. Yes, and I

6:48

had very good fortune in

6:50

that. The full mun Fever album,

6:52

the one that I loved, he made with Jeff Lynn, who's

6:54

from Electric Light Orchestra, who's a really

6:58

brilliant musician and songwriter.

7:01

They did the Traveling Wheelberries together, and

7:04

Jeff Lynn really

7:07

was a hard ass about

7:09

the songs. The songs had to be good and

7:11

sort of pop song power.

7:14

So for several years before

7:16

I got to work with him, he'd been sort

7:18

of whipped into the

7:21

song is the most important thing in the world shape.

7:24

And then our styles of production

7:26

are very different, so jeff is more

7:30

methodical. Everything

7:32

has to be in time and in tune. He

7:34

won't record a drummer playing the drums. He'll

7:36

record a drummer playing one drum, so

7:38

like for the whole song, he'll just play the kick drum

7:41

the whole song. He'll just play the high hat the whole song. He'll

7:43

play the toms, so everything

7:45

is very controlled

7:49

and meticulous and perfect.

7:52

I try to make more, at

7:55

least in this case, it was more about the organic

7:57

moment where it felt it felt

7:59

more live and more human warts

8:02

and all, not to make it sound

8:05

I would call it like hyper real. So

8:07

it was. It sounded real, but real

8:10

on a particularly good night like

8:13

not

8:15

not randomly, they're

8:18

just playing it. It was a very good

8:20

version, that

8:22

precision of

8:25

jeff Lynn. Yeah, you can hear

8:27

it in Full Moon Fever. But

8:30

you but you responded to that you liked

8:32

ful? Yeah, I loved it. I loved it. I

8:34

wouldn't make it in that way, but

8:37

it's got great power. When

8:39

you go back and listen to full moviever, can

8:41

you detect the Jeff Lynn influence?

8:44

Absolutely? What's the thing? Can we play it? Can

8:46

we play a song? Absolutely? So

8:50

there are a couple of Tom Petty songs that are

8:53

anthems. Yes, they get played

8:55

it like that gets played in sports,

8:57

and that's very it seems very counter

8:59

to the ethos. But now I understand why.

9:02

The precision of it is what gives it

9:04

its its anthemic

9:06

martial quality. And of course it's going to be played

9:09

at football games when they are but I think I

9:11

think the leason they played at football games is also I

9:13

won't back down. I know, you know, I mean

9:15

no, but it's that. But it's it's the

9:17

lyric, but it's overlaid. The song

9:19

is is it's like a

9:22

marching down the road. Very it's

9:24

disciplined and absolutely but it's

9:27

at odds with his image as a kind

9:29

of hippie yeah, mellow,

9:31

and this is not his hippie

9:34

window of music. And that's another interesting

9:36

thing about the times.

9:39

It's like Tom was able

9:41

to manage the changes of

9:43

the styles of music that happened,

9:46

still sounding like Tom Petty, but

9:49

being of the moment as well. So

9:52

like his earlier music, like he

9:54

came out first when it was kind of more punk rocky

9:56

and it had a little bit more of a punk edge. And

9:59

then that time in music, drum

10:01

machines were getting popular, so

10:04

everything on the radio sounded much more

10:09

like that, even though rarely

10:11

was it a rock band, but it had

10:13

that sort of formality.

10:16

So he was able to morph

10:18

with health. Do you think he was doing that consciously

10:21

or is he just so in tune with

10:23

the kind of zeitgeist that he moved

10:25

along. I think it was a combination of

10:28

combination of being in tune and

10:31

picking the right people to work with at

10:33

the right time for what was going

10:35

on. And I don't think he did that consciously.

10:37

I think he did it based on who he liked. I know. The

10:39

way he started working with Jeff was, from

10:42

what I understand, was just sort of a mistake. I think they

10:44

saw each other in cars driving down the stream, just

10:46

like, hey, why don't we get together and do some really

10:48

Yeah? I think so. So now play me

10:51

something from Wildflowers he

10:53

did with him, the one that came out. Yeah, okay,

10:56

so I can, and I want to understand the difference

10:58

between the Jeff Lynn and the feel

11:00

Yes, just the production stuff. Do

11:04

you remember anything specific about about the

11:06

making of that song. Yeah,

11:08

I remember I suggested that we

11:11

try a song using that beat. The song

11:13

was already written, but I said, let's try it with this

11:16

beat. And it was sort of inspired by the beat

11:18

the boom boom boom

11:20

boom ca, which was inspired

11:23

by Steve

11:25

Miller. Oh, Steve Miller. Yeah, Oh that's it

11:28

makes the feels like, why don't we do it

11:30

kind of in a Steve Miller kind of a rhythmic

11:33

vibe.

11:35

Was he very open to suggestion, absolutely

11:38

more so than other artists. Not

11:40

unusual, I mean especially I will say

11:43

it was the first album we made together, and

11:45

the nature of my

11:48

experience with him is the first time

11:50

anybody works with him, he's on his best behavior.

11:52

He's the most receptive and

11:55

willing to do the most work. And then

11:57

maybe on the fifth album we made together, he

12:00

may not have been as willing

12:02

to go that extra distance.

12:07

I think he liked to impress the people who

12:09

but I feel like he already did that, so he didn't need to

12:11

do that anymore. Did

12:14

you which iteration did you prefer?

12:17

Early? Early? And I

12:19

like what not, Not that he was trying to please

12:21

me, but that he was willing to do whatever it

12:23

took for it to be as good as it could be. That's

12:26

always the most fun. Do you consider

12:28

Wildflowers to be his kind

12:31

of creative high watermark? It's

12:33

one of he's had. He's had probably probably

12:37

three. Damn the Torpedoes would

12:39

have been the first one, and then

12:43

the Jeff Lynn and

12:45

then Wildflowers. I think those are probably the three peak

12:47

moments. We'll

12:50

be back with more on Tom Petty's

12:52

Wildflowers with Rick Rubin after

12:55

this break. We're

13:00

back with more on Tom Petty's Wildflowers.

13:03

Petty and Rick Rubin recorded dozens

13:06

of songs during the two year sessions for Wildflowers,

13:09

but only one disc ever came out. There's

13:11

still an entire disc out there that's

13:13

never seen the light of day. Rick actually

13:15

played it for me in the most Rick

13:18

way ever. He just called it up on his iPhone

13:20

and it was amazing. But I'm afraid

13:22

we can't share it with you. You'll just have

13:24

to wait for its official release. So

13:27

tell me how it came to be that you had

13:30

these two records.

13:32

Well, we recorded over this two

13:34

year period. We recorded probably twenty

13:39

sick between twenty six and twenty eight songs,

13:43

and we didn't really know what was going

13:45

to be on the album. And then at the end of it, we thought,

13:47

wow, this is all good. Let's this is This

13:49

could be a great double album, and we

13:51

put it together as a double album and we brought

13:54

it to the record company, and the

13:56

record company suggested it be a single

13:58

album, not because they didn't like the double album,

14:00

but they just said, commercially in

14:03

the marketplace, having a double album

14:06

wasn't necessarily a great thing to do. And

14:08

it was their first it was his first album with Warner

14:10

Brothers. They just wanted

14:12

what was best. They really wanted what was best for

14:14

Tom and surprise. You know,

14:16

Tom historically was very

14:18

anti anyone saying

14:21

anything about anything. He's very He

14:24

did things his way always. It

14:26

would always fight the power

14:28

of authority from any direction. He

14:31

had a fight with MCA for years where they

14:34

raised the price of music a

14:36

dollar and he wouldn't put out a record unless

14:39

they sold his at the old price,

14:41

and they wouldn't put it out. And I

14:43

think he went two years without putting out any music

14:46

because he he wanted it the way

14:48

he thought was what he thought was right. And he kept

14:50

his prices ticket prices, Lola, because

14:52

he wanted people to be able to see the show a

14:54

lot he had a lot of He

14:57

cared very much about his audience

14:59

and and doing what he thought was right

15:01

by them. I was a little surprised

15:04

that he decided, but I guess he thought,

15:06

well, this may be better for the audience, which is

15:08

why he went along with it. I

15:10

mean, how do you decide if you have

15:12

twenty four you come forward with twenty four songs

15:14

or what have you, how do you decide which ones to drop

15:17

and which ones to go forward with? Just experimentation.

15:19

A lot of it was Tom's instinct

15:22

and some of it was we'd

15:25

play them in a sequence. We'd come up

15:27

with a sequence. Each one of us might come up with a

15:29

sequence that we like and then play it for each other and

15:31

then say, okay, well this. You know, these three sound

15:34

really good together, these five sound really good together.

15:36

And then after hearing these you

15:38

want this feeling. It doesn't really do that yet, what

15:40

do we have that could make it feel like that? So kind

15:43

of looking at the arc of the picture.

15:45

So there might be like, let's say there are six songs

15:48

that we'd say, no matter what, these six need

15:50

to be on it, or these eight, whatever it is, and

15:52

then the balance of it is more what makes

15:55

the journey. You wouldn't

15:57

We wouldn't do that today, would

16:00

we? If we recorded twenty eight songs

16:02

with an artist today, we would have the choice of either putting

16:04

out all twenty eight without thinking about it. Because there's no

16:06

such thing as a singular double album anymore. We

16:09

might say in today's world,

16:12

the nature of the speed of digestion,

16:16

that people's attention span

16:19

is there for maybe five or six songs

16:21

at a time, So maybe it's better to

16:23

break it up into four

16:26

projects and put them out every

16:29

form of five months, six months, depending

16:32

on what happens.

16:35

It didn't break you, did it break his heart or break

16:37

your heart? About these songs that never got heard,

16:40

I remember feeling a little bad about I loved

16:42

the album, so it wasn't like what

16:45

we were putting out wasn't good. I mean, I

16:47

thought what we put out was. I loved

16:49

it. I absolutely loved it. This

16:51

is the thing about musicians versus writers. I've never

16:53

understood the amount of the

16:56

wastefulness of the musical process is just

16:59

compared to writing. If I write

17:01

a sentence, it will be

17:03

printed somewhere. I don't weigh sentences

17:06

like every single thing

17:08

I've ever written has found the lad of day somewhere, Whereas

17:10

you guys will leave things on

17:13

the cutting room floors endless. You have

17:15

no idea. You have no idea that

17:17

doesn't drive you.

17:18

Your screenritter is the

17:20

same way, where you know you can be a screenwriter

17:23

of your whole career and nothing ever get made. So

17:25

the end, there's all this stuff. I'm

17:27

always fascinated by the relationship of the artist

17:30

to this unknown It's private

17:32

work. This lost Tom

17:34

Petty album is private work. Basically,

17:37

you and Tom Petty, who's not even with us anymore,

17:40

and no one else does the guys in the band

17:43

who all love it, who

17:46

worked, who labored months

17:48

over these songs that

17:50

never got released to get them to where

17:53

they are. Is there any of

17:55

those unreleased songs in retrospect that you think

17:57

we really blew it with this song? No,

17:59

but they're great. I mean I feel like Wildflowers

18:01

did exactly what it was supposed to do. People really love

18:04

it, stood the test of time,

18:06

and these other songs are When I

18:08

heard them for the first time, Tom came over and played

18:10

him for me, probably maybe

18:13

two years ago, two two and a half years

18:15

ago, and I was floored

18:17

by I had like a

18:19

vague memory of them,

18:22

but some of them just hit me, like, Wow, what a great

18:24

song. How did we ever? How did

18:26

we miss this? So he came by here

18:28

too, Did you come here in my house or your house?

18:30

Yeah? With the explicit intent

18:33

to play the Yeah. He's like, I've been working on

18:35

the rest of Wildflowers, and I've

18:37

been fixing some stuff that wasn't done at the

18:40

end, like a couple of mixes and things, and I

18:42

want to play it for you. And he came

18:44

and he played it for me. Did he want to re release

18:46

it. Yes, he did. The issue

18:48

was he very much wanted

18:50

to re release it. He thought it was really important

18:53

because the legacy of the Wildflowers

18:55

album loomed large in his

18:57

career and he

18:59

knew that the second half of Wildflowers

19:02

was an important statement. His

19:04

issue was he didn't want to put

19:07

it out as a new Tom Petty album because

19:09

it's not a new Tom Petty album. It was recorded twenty five

19:11

years ago, and he didn't want to

19:13

release it as an old catalog album

19:15

because he didn't he thought

19:17

it deserved more than being

19:19

a catalog album. He felt like it was

19:22

too good to just

19:24

put out and was sort of looking

19:26

for the right story where

19:29

it would have the exposure that it deserved, and

19:31

he never came up with it. Why

19:34

couldn't he is a naive question, But why

19:36

couldn't he just put it as a new Tome Petty album.

19:40

There's something about the artist's

19:43

work that

19:45

has a little bit of a diary

19:48

like aspect. You know it. The

19:52

work reflects a time in someone's

19:54

life, and you'll hear when if

19:56

I were to play you Tom's last

19:58

album and then play

20:00

you Wildflowers Too,

20:03

or whatever it's called, it's

20:05

it's very different. So I think that was

20:07

his thing, was like I have changed

20:10

as an artist since then. I

20:12

love that. I think I might have told you this.

20:14

He told me wildflower scares

20:17

him because he's

20:19

not really sure why it's

20:21

as good as it is. So it has

20:24

this like haunted feeling

20:26

for him. What does that mean? He's not like

20:30

he loves it, but it

20:34

he It's not like he could turn that on again.

20:37

He could. He couldn't make wildflowers to

20:39

today. That was the point. The point was I

20:41

can't do this now. This was then,

20:44

and it was where I was then, and it was

20:46

a prolific period.

20:49

This is an extension of

20:51

that moment. Did he mean I can't

20:53

make something as good as that again? Or just

20:55

that just that just what that is, what

20:58

that is, and that scared him? Those

21:01

were his words. I was surprised. I was surprised

21:03

when he said it was he as

21:05

artists go unusually

21:08

introspective about his own work. I

21:10

wouldn't say so, but

21:13

how many artists would say, would listen to something

21:15

from twenty years ago, play something from twenty years ago

21:17

and say to you, it scares them. I've

21:20

never heard anything like that before. It

21:22

was unusual. But the closest thing I can remember, and it

21:24

wasn't said to me. I just heard it in an interview was

21:27

Bob Dylan talking about his early records,

21:29

saying I didn't write

21:31

those, like I don't know who wrote those. I

21:34

couldn't write those. It was like that.

21:36

It was like something

21:38

magic happened in that moment, And

21:41

now looking back on it, it's a little scary

21:43

to me. We'll be back

21:45

with more broken record after this break.

21:52

We're back with more on Tom Petty's

21:54

Wildflowers with Rick Rubin.

21:56

Why did you guys not just

21:59

Reese say I can have two years

22:01

later? I have no idea. I don't know. Again,

22:04

it goes to this waste you're so accustomed

22:06

to, how wasteful the process is. Yeah.

22:08

The next thing he did was a soundtrack album,

22:10

and there were a couple of songs on the soundtrack album

22:13

that were from those sessions. Oh is that the soundtrack?

22:15

Where? Wait, that's really a really interesting

22:17

story. It's a yellow album. Somebody

22:20

comes to him and says, I

22:22

want to use one of your songs from my movie.

22:25

Yeah, it's a really small isn't it an

22:27

Ed Burns movie? Yeah, it's an Ed Burns movie

22:29

and he says she's the one. She's

22:31

the one. He's like, I'll write

22:33

a whole new album about it. It's just kind

22:35

of insane, active, creative

22:38

bravado. Yeah, that's where he was in that

22:40

moment. Yeah, and I think a couple

22:42

there are a couple of Wildflower

22:46

songs that weren't on the original

22:48

Wildflowers that ended up

22:50

on that hearing

22:53

that is that? First of all, does that trigger

22:55

memories of when you guys were working on

22:57

it? Not on that, but it reminds

22:59

me of the whole time. Yeah, I can't remember like

23:01

being in the studio, but it wasn't like, oh, we were recording

23:04

that song. But I can't remember the

23:06

feeling of that time. So is

23:08

so what is tie that song

23:11

to that period in

23:13

Tom Petty's career. Well,

23:15

it has the leftover remnants

23:18

of the Jeff Lynn song

23:20

influence, so it's very It

23:23

really works well lyrically and

23:26

melodically strong like song

23:28

power song. We did

23:30

that one very in a straightforward way,

23:32

kind of almost Jeff Lenny drum wise, very

23:36

straight suited, and that we probably

23:38

played that a bunch of different ways before

23:41

we decided, oh we like it. This way probably

23:43

played it more like band style, and then it's

23:45

like, oh, this lends itself

23:47

more to the kind of hypnotic locked in sound.

23:50

It's a more you know, down tempo,

23:52

moody piece, sort of the sarcastic

23:55

time I hope you never fall in love with somebody

23:57

like you?

24:00

Is a song like that coming out of his personal experience?

24:02

Is he? It might it might be coming out

24:04

of his personal experience, or it might be the

24:07

idea, like he might have had that idea

24:09

of like I hope you never fall in

24:11

love with somebody like you, and I should write a song like that. I

24:13

don't know. He would never say yeah,

24:16

Oh, he wasn't a He wasn't kind of emotionally

24:18

confessional in his no no. And I

24:21

once saw one time

24:23

he was playing me demos and he would always sit with

24:25

the guitar in his lap and kind of hunt

24:27

around while while we were talking.

24:30

And one time he started playing me a song and

24:34

he plays this song and it's and

24:38

sings it first verse, chorus,

24:40

sings the whole song and

24:43

uh, and it's great. And I say, wow, that's a great

24:45

one where that one's when's that one from? He's

24:48

like, I just that's just now. I

24:50

said, you mean, I

24:53

said, you didn't write that

24:55

before I got here, and he's like, no, that just came out

24:57

just now. And I said what's it about? And he's

24:59

like, I have no idea And it was like

25:02

ornate, intricate lyrics. He

25:04

channeled it. Did you did you

25:07

tape it? And like, h so that

25:09

became a real song. Yeah, absolutely, It's

25:11

probably a song on wild Flowers. I can't remember which

25:13

song it was, but I got to see

25:15

firsthand, and I remember the conversation

25:17

of what's it about? Because

25:19

it was like the story seemed really intricate.

25:22

It's like, oh, that's interesting, where's that? Like?

25:24

No idea? How much of that did you

25:26

understand before you met him? Did you understand

25:29

like, oh, this guy is sort of something

25:31

special or was a lot of it revealed to

25:33

you when you started working with him more?

25:35

When more? When I worked with him, I knew

25:37

he was really I knew he really

25:41

was a song craftsman, which

25:44

which he was, but I didn't realize

25:46

the the connectedness

25:50

that he had beyond that. It's

25:53

like there was an the emotional quality

25:57

beneath it was very strong. He didn't

26:00

he never struck me as an emotional person, but

26:04

in the work it was there. Yeah.

26:07

How many albums did you do with him? I

26:10

think we did four or five something like that. Yeah,

26:14

but in your mind, the most successful,

26:16

the best of those was the first. It's my favorite.

26:19

Yeah, it seems the one that resonated

26:21

the most with people. And then there was a period

26:24

after that where after

26:28

the divorce, he sort

26:30

of fell into a dark period.

26:33

And there's

26:36

some interesting thing that came out of that period, but

26:38

I don't think he was he was at his peak.

26:41

Yeah, why did

26:43

you guys stop booking together?

26:46

I never knew why, but I was

26:49

told something that he wrote, or something

26:51

that was written in the autobiography that

26:53

was done on him. It's not an autobiography,

26:55

the biography that was done on him. That whatever.

26:59

The last project we worked on together. At

27:02

the end of the project, while

27:04

we were mixing, it

27:07

was time for me to start my next project, which I think

27:09

was a Red Hot Chili Peppers album, And I

27:11

started the next project, and I think he felt

27:13

like I abandoned him, which

27:15

I don't think was the case. I think we had already

27:18

done what we were supposed to do, But he

27:21

never said that to me. I didn't know anything about

27:23

that. Yeah, yeah, but you guys remained on

27:25

good terms. Absolutely. Yeah.

27:27

Do you think it's a good thing for artists

27:29

to move from producer to producer?

27:32

Can it? Can? It can be very

27:34

productive, especially based on the story I

27:36

told you earlier of he

27:39

wanted to impress me in the beginning, So

27:41

if there was someone knew that he wanted to impress,

27:44

he would work harder, So that would

27:46

be a good thing. Yeah, yeah,

27:48

does. Then again, George Martin

27:50

did all the Beatles records and they're really good. So

27:52

it's like it's hard to say, like, no one knows.

27:55

Yeah, no one knows. No

27:57

one knows. That's a very rick

27:59

way our first season, you

28:02

know. When we began with our first episode of Broken

28:04

Record earlier this fall, a massive

28:06

wildfire was threatening both Rick's

28:08

home and his studio, the

28:10

historic Shangolaw in Malibu. Many

28:13

of you have asked about what happened to Shangolow.

28:15

The answer is, miraculously it

28:18

survived. The fire burned all

28:20

around it, but that bit of musical

28:22

history escaped unscathed. Maybe

28:25

that's an omen for all of music in the

28:27

coming year. We'll

28:31

be back in the spring with new conversations

28:33

and performances from some of our favorite

28:35

artists Pentatonics, Questlove,

28:38

Lawyer McKenna in Nashville, Ezra

28:40

Canning, E, Vampire Weekend, and many many

28:42

more. Who knows, we might

28:44

just drop in a surprise in the meantime. Thank

28:47

you for listening. Broken

28:49

Record is produced by Justin Richmond and Jason

28:52

Gambrell, with help from Bruce Headlam,

28:54

Mia Lobel, Jaquita, Pascal, Daisy Rosario,

28:57

Jacob Smith, Julia Barton, Jacob

28:59

Weisberg, and of course el

29:01

Hefe Rick Rubin. To

29:04

hear the songs featured in today's episode,

29:06

check out Broken Record podcast

29:08

dot com. This show is

29:10

brought to you by Pushkin Industries.

29:13

I'm maconglat them