0:00

What you pay attention to. You

0:02

become. So do you want to become

0:05

the things you're paying attention to online,

0:07

or do you want to become more like your

0:09

Lord Jesus? Or do you want to become a better

0:11

dad, or a better mom, or a better

0:13

spouse? Because that's what you need to pay attention

0:15

to.

0:20

Welcome to building relationships

0:23

with Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New

0:25

York Times bestseller, The Five Love

0:27

Languages. In today's world

0:29

of constant hurry and distraction.

0:31

It can be difficult to focus on what's important.

0:34

Author and speaker Paul Langone wants

0:36

to help you pay attention to your life.

0:38

All wants to help you embrace the life

0:40

changing practice of listening to

0:43

your day. We're going to talk about that straight

0:45

ahead, and you can find out more at our website.

0:47

Building relationships.us.

0:49

Which leads me to make this

0:51

observation, Gary, you seem to

0:54

have learned early on in life

0:56

how to pay attention, which

0:58

is partly, you know, listening well

1:00

is a part of that. How did you learn

1:02

to do that.

1:03

Chris? That's a question I've never been asked.

1:08

How did I learn to do that? No,

1:11

I am very much into the

1:13

moment. You know, my wife has a saying. Wherever

1:15

you are. Be all there. Yes. And

1:17

I've tried to follow that through the years. If

1:20

I'm counseling a couple, they have my full

1:22

attention for the time that I'm with them,

1:24

and I try to be sensitive to people around

1:27

me as I walk out of a restaurant. You know,

1:29

if I see somebody, I don't even

1:31

know them. But I might make a comment about how

1:33

wonderful the food looks or hope

1:35

you leave something here for me. Or, you know, just

1:39

I just enjoy, you know, interfacing

1:41

with people. And I

1:43

guess my parents, neither

1:45

one of them were quite like that. But

1:48

I think it's it's been a growing thing, too,

1:50

because I'm not by nature, I'm not an

1:52

extrovert by any means. Right.

1:55

You know, when you pay attention to people

1:57

around you, they'll almost

1:59

always respond in a positive way. Because

2:01

in our world, especially today, we're

2:03

not talking to people, we're not

2:05

interfacing. We're just each doing their own

2:08

thing. Even in the airplanes, they don't talk

2:10

anymore. In airplanes, most people just

2:12

sit there, you know?

2:13

Yeah. You know, the the observation

2:15

I have about you and the folks listening

2:17

don't know this. When we do a Dear Gary broadcast

2:19

and we play the questions for Dr. Chapman,

2:22

it is the first time he's hearing them. He

2:24

he doesn't hear these ahead of time.

2:26

When we record it, that's when he hears it the first

2:28

time and he will pick

2:31

up on things. And I probably heard of 4

2:33

or 5 times he will pick up

2:35

on things in the question

2:37

that he responds to and

2:39

remembers and addresses, because

2:42

he listens so well. So I think

2:44

there's a part of a spiritual

2:46

gift. It's part intentionality on your

2:48

part, but it's also part of

2:50

the way that God has made you to really listen

2:53

well. Which leads right into our

2:55

guest today. He's one of the nation's sought

2:57

after voices to young professionals,

2:59

people going through change in transition,

3:01

and those who want to live intentionally.

3:03

He's the best selling author of 101

3:05

secrets for Your 20s and 25

3:08

lies. 20 somethings Need to Stop Believing.

3:10

He has a master's degree in organizational

3:12

leadership, and his new book is

3:15

our featured resource. Paul Langone

3:17

has written Listen to Your Day

3:19

the life changing practice of paying

3:21

attention. Find out more at building relationships.us.

3:26

Well, Paul, welcome back to Building Relationships.

3:29

Thank you so much. It's an honor to be here.

3:31

You know, last time you were here, you

3:33

talked about millennials and some of

3:35

the struggles that they're up against in today's

3:37

world. But you're encouraging

3:39

every age to learn to pay

3:41

attention, right?

3:43

Yeah. That's correct. Yeah. I wrote my initial

3:45

books, you know, 101 secrets for 2025

3:48

lies. 20 Somethings Need to Stop believing

3:50

because I basically I felt like such a failure

3:52

in my 20s. It was a real struggle.

3:55

In my 20s, I became passionate

3:57

about that specific decade of

3:59

life. And how do you do it? Well, well,

4:02

that was the same with this new book. Listen to your day.

4:04

The life changing practice of paying attention

4:06

is, I felt like I was failing

4:09

at my ability to pay attention

4:11

to what's important. Yeah, I felt like

4:13

I was really losing the skill set and

4:15

the art of paying attention. Well.

4:18

So is that what got you interested in

4:20

this topic and writing this book?

4:21

Yeah, it really was. You know, and I think for many

4:24

of us, you know, just even that that

4:26

setting on your phone, I don't know if anybody

4:28

has this set up where it tells you at the end of the week

4:31

how much time you've spent on your phone.

4:34

It was really quite alarming for me where,

4:36

you know, I would look at it and it would say five,

4:38

six, seven hours a day that

4:41

I was spending looking at my phone. And

4:43

obviously we can be distracted by lots of things.

4:45

You know, it's not just our phones, but

4:47

obviously in today's age, you know, that's one of the

4:49

biggest distractions. And I felt like

4:52

I was I was really losing that intentionality

4:55

of my attention. And I

4:57

was missing so much of what

4:59

was going on right in front of me to where,

5:01

you know, I couldn't even focus for five minutes

5:03

to read a book, which is hard

5:06

when you're an author, and then you need to write a book

5:08

that becomes even more difficult process.

5:10

So I really had to I really had to live

5:13

what I was researching, what I was

5:15

writing. I had to live that so that

5:17

I could write this book.

5:18

Yeah. So you say that our

5:20

whole lives are influenced by

5:23

what we pay attention to. So what do

5:25

you mean by that? And can you give us some

5:27

examples?

5:28

Yeah. You know, a great example is,

5:31

you know, what we would call an expert.

5:33

You know, I think an expert is a great example

5:35

of somebody who has paid attention

5:38

to something to, to

5:40

a focused extent

5:42

more than anybody else. You know, an expert

5:44

doesn't have to be. He was just, you know, way

5:46

more hyper intellectual than the rest of us.

5:49

No, I think it's the opposite. I think they've just chosen

5:51

to focus in on something with

5:54

a heightened, focused intensity

5:56

because they're passionate about it, because they really

5:58

care about it. You know, that's that's

6:00

you, Dr. Chapman. You focused in on relationships

6:03

because you're passionate about it. And so you're an expert

6:06

at that because you've just given it

6:08

your focused attention. And,

6:10

you know, that's what a doctor is. You know, a doctor

6:12

doesn't just become a doctor overnight. They

6:15

literally become what

6:17

they've been paying attention to for years.

6:19

And studying. And really, we

6:21

really hope that our doctor has done

6:23

a good job at paying attention to that.

6:25

When they're opening us up for surgery, we hope

6:27

they've really focus their attention. Well,

6:30

correct. You know, and that's the same for

6:32

all of us. You know, we have to we

6:34

have to focus our attention and then we

6:36

start becoming what we're paying attention

6:38

to. You know, so if all we're paying attention

6:41

to is the headlines on Twitter, you

6:43

know, we're we're going to become what those

6:45

headlines are. And I think that can be

6:47

a scary thing for many of us.

6:49

I think many of our listeners can agree with

6:51

what you're saying and likely

6:53

seeing it in ourselves, to be sure.

6:56

Now talk about the term that you used

6:58

or one term you use obsessive

7:01

comparison disorder.

7:03

What is that and how does it affect our

7:05

attention?

7:06

Yeah, that's it's a it's one I

7:09

coined years ago back in 101

7:11

secrets for your 20s. And I just

7:13

see it as such a problem in

7:15

today's age. You know, you used to have to go

7:17

to your ten year reunion or 20 year

7:19

reunion, right? And that's when you would

7:22

be buddy up and down to see who's

7:24

who's doing better than whom. But

7:26

you just had to fake it for one night,

7:28

you know, lose some weight, get

7:31

a toupee, rent a BMW,

7:33

you know, whatever it took. Just a

7:35

fake it that you were, you know, you were

7:38

a success, that you were doing

7:40

something great with your life. You

7:43

know, snapshot and images, those

7:45

edited and filtered images

7:47

with everybody else. And we're obsessively

7:50

doing this, you know, at the back

7:52

of a line or waiting in an airplane

7:54

or an elevator, you know, any awkward, boring,

7:57

quiet moment where maybe

8:00

we would even prayed in the past, you know, please,

8:02

Lord, help me in this situation or talking

8:04

to the Lord. Now we're we're replacing it with our phone

8:06

and pulling up all these images and obsessively

8:09

comparing ourselves. And

8:11

man, how damaging is that

8:13

to our peace, to our well-being.

8:15

That's for sure. Well, you know, I spend

8:17

a lot of my time reflecting on the five love

8:19

languages, because that concept has so

8:22

changed my life and the lives of a

8:24

lot of my counselors, and as well as millions

8:26

of people who have gotten the concept.

8:29

But I'm sitting here thinking that whole concept

8:31

relies on the ability to pay attention

8:34

to others and to yourself,

8:36

right?

8:37

Yeah, it's so important. And in

8:39

my book, Listen to Your Day, I focus about

8:41

four chapters on the topic

8:43

of relationships, and I

8:45

talk about your book, Dr. Chapman, because

8:48

it is so important, I think, that the love languages

8:50

have been so revolutionary for so many

8:52

of us. But it really does start

8:54

with that. That first ability of

8:57

am I paying proper attention

9:00

to the person across from me? Because

9:02

really, it's hard to enact those love languages.

9:04

It's hard to notice them if you're not paying

9:07

attention to that person. And

9:09

how do you how do you enact that love language

9:11

if you're if you're not there in the moment and

9:13

seeing and hearing what they're going through

9:15

so that you can then figure out, okay, this

9:18

is when that love language needs to come in. This

9:20

is the time. This is the place

9:22

because I'm paying attention to that moment.

9:24

And if we're not, man, it's

9:26

really hard. It's really hard to love anybody.

9:28

Well, if you're not paying attention

9:31

to them.

9:32

This is building relationships with

9:34

Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York

9:36

Times bestseller The Five Love Languages.

9:39

For more ways to strengthen relationships

9:41

or to take a brief online quiz

9:43

to determine your love language, go

9:45

to our website. Building relationships.us.

9:49

You know, one of the ways that you can pay

9:51

attention in relationships is

9:53

to listen well to the

9:55

other person. Can you give us some

9:58

some tips on how to do that?

10:00

I think we can all relate that. Maybe we

10:02

don't listen as

10:04

well as we think we do, and

10:07

maybe it just takes asking our spouse

10:09

if we're a good listener or not. Maybe

10:12

we don't want to ask that question. Or

10:14

do our coworkers asking or

10:17

even asking her coworkers. And maybe that's a good exercise

10:19

to start with. If we want to be humble

10:21

and really start working at this, start asking the people,

10:23

the most important people in our lives, maybe our children,

10:26

and ask them, hey, do you think I listen?

10:28

Well, that might

10:30

be a surprising conversation for many of us

10:32

to have, you know? But there are simple

10:34

things we can do. This is not this

10:37

doesn't have to be rocket science, you

10:39

know, and it's even built into the phrase

10:41

when somebody might say to you, can you please give me

10:43

your undivided attention? And

10:46

I think that's a great place to start because so many, so

10:48

much of our attention these days is divided.

10:51

You know, it's divided between so many things

10:53

at the same time. So some simple

10:56

things like sitting down

10:58

with somebody and looking at them

11:00

in the eyes. You

11:02

know, your body language, pointing

11:04

your body toward somebody.

11:07

You know, you can even go to a coffee shop

11:09

and study people you know, don't do it.

11:11

Don't stare at them too long, but

11:14

study conversations that are taking place.

11:16

I did this when I was writing the book, and

11:18

I watched a couple as they were talking,

11:21

and their bodies were kind of tilted away from

11:23

each other. And then I watched the gentleman.

11:25

I could tell that conversation was getting serious,

11:28

and he and he literally rotated his

11:30

chair so that he would point his

11:32

shoulders in his face directly at

11:34

the person instead of being at an angle,

11:36

and even that simple thing. And he

11:39

leaned forward. And then I watched

11:41

that other person reciprocate,

11:43

and they leaned forward. You know, because we

11:45

match each other's body movements.

11:47

And I could tell that the conversation

11:49

really picked up because basically

11:51

that person made an investment in

11:53

the relationship with their with their body language.

11:56

And it was really simple, but it had a profound

11:58

effect.

11:59

Yeah, I can certainly see that, you

12:01

know, all the love languages first, start

12:04

with our ability or inability

12:06

to pay attention to the other person.

12:08

So what's the relationship between

12:11

building healthy relationships

12:13

and our attention?

12:15

Yeah, again, I think our connection

12:17

and meaningful relationships, it

12:19

all begins with paying proper attention

12:22

to somebody. And so another thing

12:24

that we can do, and we you touch

12:26

on this at the beginning of the episode. It's

12:28

something that you're really good at. Dr. Chapman is

12:30

asking good questions of somebody.

12:33

And so I even encourage younger people,

12:36

let's say you're even going to like a networking event.

12:38

You know, those would always terrify me.

12:41

You know, you felt like you had to, like, give out your

12:43

business cards like you're a

12:45

car salesman or like you're in the Wild West and

12:47

you're like, pulling out your business cards as

12:49

fast as you can to hand them out to people

12:51

and tell people, you're 30, 32nd

12:54

elevator pitch. You got to have that down to tell

12:56

people how amazing you are, right? And

12:59

I started realizing that that was all wrong,

13:01

you know, and I started encouraging younger people

13:03

don't network like a machine,

13:05

you know, go in relationship like

13:07

a person. And in

13:09

the. And the way you start doing that is don't

13:12

even worry about talking about yourself.

13:14

Throw out the elevator pitch. Nobody

13:16

cares, to be honest. Go

13:19

in and ask other people really

13:21

good questions. Yeah, and

13:23

try to get the other person talking about themselves

13:25

for the first five minutes. Almost

13:28

make it a game. Can you ask good questions to

13:30

somebody else so that they'll talk about themselves

13:33

for the first five minutes? And I bet

13:35

you when they leave that conversation,

13:37

even if you haven't said more than two words

13:39

about yourself, what is that

13:41

other person going to be thinking about you? They're

13:43

going to be thinking, man, I really like that

13:46

person. Wow. I really connected

13:48

with them. Well, I'm going to I want to introduce

13:50

them to my boss, to, you know, whatever

13:52

it might be and they might not even realize

13:55

that you never even said a word about

13:57

yourself, but you just showed them love

13:59

and respect by asking them good

14:01

questions. And now they like you.

14:03

That's for sure. You know, my wife can

14:05

strike up a conversation in the grocery store,

14:08

and she's really good at asking

14:10

questions. And in 30 minutes, she knows the

14:12

whole life story of that person. So

14:17

questions are important.

14:18

Exactly.

14:19

Now you use the the word currency

14:23

attention as a currency. What

14:25

do you mean by that phrase.

14:26

Yeah, it's it's actually built into the phrase.

14:29

It's right there, you know, pay

14:31

attention. And I think it's helpful

14:34

to even think about it in those terms of

14:36

what payments are you making

14:38

with your attention. So what are

14:40

you investing in with your attention?

14:42

You know, are you investing in, let's say,

14:44

your children, are you making payments

14:47

with your attention, with your children,

14:49

or are they just a distraction,

14:51

or are they just in the way? Or are they a nuisance as you

14:54

go and do more important things? Well,

14:56

that's probably going to show up in your relationship

14:59

with them. Yeah, right. You know, it's kind of that old

15:01

adage that, you know, kids are misbehaving,

15:04

you know, the real troubled kids. It's

15:06

just a cry for attention, right?

15:09

Yeah. And so it's like they'll do whatever it takes,

15:11

good or bad, to get their parents

15:13

attention. And, and

15:15

I even see that, you know, in today's age, you know, we talk

15:17

about younger people being narcissists by

15:20

all the selfies, you know, showing selfie

15:22

after selfie on the internet.

15:24

And, you know, it's a bunch of narcissists. Well,

15:26

I don't really see that, you know, narcissists.

15:29

You know, back to the old mythology. You

15:31

know, he fell in love with his own image,

15:33

you know, and that's why he couldn't leave the pond, right? Because

15:35

he fell in love so deeply with his own image.

15:38

I don't see that with young people. And then

15:40

posting selfies. I see it

15:42

as a cry, as a yearning

15:44

from their heart for somebody to

15:47

see them, for somebody

15:49

to hear them. You know, that there's that

15:51

cry that's a yearning of their soul. And so

15:53

they're doing it in this kind of misplaced way.

15:55

But let me show another picture to get validation.

15:58

Yeah. And so we as parents, even

16:00

in that way, we can pay attention

16:02

and we can make those investments

16:04

in our kids. And

16:06

then also, where are we in debt to

16:09

our with our attention? Are

16:11

we in debt to CNN

16:13

and Fox News? Is that

16:15

getting our choice attention every

16:17

day, or to TikTok or

16:19

Instagram or whatever it might be? Where are we

16:21

in debt to with our attention?

16:23

Because we are in an attention economy.

16:26

Everything wants your attention,

16:28

so we have to fight and be intentional

16:30

about paying our attention into

16:33

important places that we're going to reap the dividends

16:35

for the rest of our lives.

16:37

Yeah, well.

16:39

I had never thought about attention

16:42

as a currency, but I get it.

16:46

Paying attention. In

16:50

chapter five, you write about the importance

16:52

of awkward, boring,

16:54

quiet spaces. Is

16:57

there a place for the mind to be silent?

17:00

And how important is that?

17:02

Oh man, you know, our minds

17:05

weren't made for constant

17:07

noise. They just

17:09

really weren't, you know? And I almost equate

17:11

it to, you know, that sponge

17:13

at your kitchen sink, right.

17:15

That that probably smells a little

17:17

bit and you probably should have thrown it away,

17:20

you know, a few weeks ago. And yet we keep

17:22

using it all the time like it's still cleaning

17:24

our dishes. It always baffles me

17:27

that we do this. Yeah, but

17:29

but but a sponge, if

17:32

it's constantly in water or if it's constantly

17:34

soggy, you know, it becomes that way,

17:36

it becomes mildewy, it becomes

17:39

smelly because it's never been given

17:41

that chance to dry out. Yeah.

17:44

And I equate that to our minds.

17:46

You know, we're not giving our minds the ability

17:48

to just dry out, to be

17:51

at quiet, to be at peace, to be at rest,

17:53

to be praying or meditating,

17:55

you know, asking God, fill me with your

17:57

thoughts, fill me with your peace,

18:00

you know. And if we're constantly giving ourselves

18:02

a noise, you know, we're becoming that sponge.

18:04

That's just it's constantly in water

18:07

and it kind of begins. Is to smell and

18:09

lose its effectiveness.

18:11

Why do you think so many of us are

18:13

uncomfortable in these

18:16

quiet spaces? Or other

18:19

things are going on, and we just feel like, you

18:21

know, we're not wasting time, though,

18:23

are we?

18:24

Yeah. You know, I think I think

18:26

we've lied to ourselves a little bit that we

18:28

always have to be doing something.

18:30

Yeah. You know, and I think we've kind of lost

18:32

it on the altar of productivity

18:35

sometimes where I always need to be productive.

18:37

Yeah, but actually, I would argue

18:39

that by always jumping on your phone,

18:42

any, any, you know, any

18:44

space, any boring moment that you have,

18:46

you're probably being very counterproductive.

18:49

That's probably the least productive thing you could

18:51

do. And actually, I found

18:53

while I was writing my book, I started

18:56

scheduling into my day a 30

18:59

to 45 minute walk where

19:01

that was on my calendar, and I would schedule that in

19:03

and I wouldn't listen to anything. You

19:05

know, as amazing as this podcast is, you

19:07

know, I wasn't listening to any podcasts. You

19:09

know, I was just listening. What? Listening

19:12

to my day, I was listening to the Lord,

19:14

and I was just listening to the birds and

19:16

my footsteps on the ground. And

19:19

I'm telling you, those 40

19:21

minutes I wrote so much of my

19:23

book on those walks, because

19:25

that's when I was getting the ideas, you know,

19:27

aha moments. They don't happen

19:30

by accident. They happen in

19:32

those quiet, still moments where our minds and

19:34

our hearts are at rest so that the Lord can

19:36

speak to us and we actually are listening.

19:38

I've had a personal devotional time with God, of

19:41

course, for years, you know, but

19:43

in the last, I don't know, 3 or 4 months

19:45

after I read the scriptures and talked to God

19:47

about whatever he had in that conversation,

19:50

I've just been sitting there and saying,

19:53

father, I just want to sit here in your presence

19:55

and just enjoy your presence.

19:58

And it's absolutely incredible.

20:01

You know, the sense of

20:03

warmth and awareness

20:06

that that he's with us, you know.

20:08

So yeah, I'm identifying with

20:10

that for sure. Wow. Why

20:13

is it important to intentionally decide

20:16

where our attention is placed? Because

20:18

we're the ones that decide that, right?

20:20

Yeah.

20:21

You know, I think there's been a lot

20:23

of studies through psychology

20:26

and neuroscience that's been studying

20:28

attention in our ability to pay attention.

20:31

And I dive into a lot of that in

20:33

the book to kind of get the neuroscience behind

20:35

this as well. And there's a theory

20:37

called inattentional blindness.

20:40

So actually, psychologists have been somewhat

20:42

alarmed or surprised

20:45

that we actually don't see

20:47

so much of what comes in

20:49

front of us every day. So

20:52

I mentioned a video that maybe some of us

20:54

have seen a video like this. I'll do this on my keynotes

20:57

when I'm talking to leaders about attention

20:59

and paying proper attention, where there's

21:01

a team in white and a team in black, and

21:03

they're throwing the ball around and

21:05

the narrator asks, how much passes

21:07

does the team in white make? And

21:10

I tell people, you know, really focus. I want to see who's paying

21:12

attention in the room. And

21:14

the video starts going. They start throwing passes around,

21:16

and the narrator stops and I say,

21:18

well, who got the answer right? And everybody shouts out,

21:20

seven! And sure enough, the answer

21:23

is seven. And everybody cheers. It was

21:25

seven passes, but then the narrator

21:27

stops and says, but did you see the moonwalking

21:29

bear? And everybody's like, what?

21:32

You know, and they rewind the video and

21:35

sure enough, a man in a full

21:37

sized bear costume moonwalks

21:39

across the entire screen. But

21:41

you don't see them. Yeah, because

21:44

you only see what you're looking

21:46

for. So really paying

21:49

attention is not a passive endeavor.

21:51

It's an intentional choice.

21:53

So we actually make our minds up and we

21:56

choose what we pay attention

21:58

to. You know, that's why you can see somebody who's

22:00

made their mind up, even when they're going through the

22:02

worst things in their life. And we know people like

22:04

this. They're going through such hard things,

22:06

but they're still joyful. Yeah, they're

22:09

still at peace. They still have rest in

22:11

their lives. It's because they've chosen to pay

22:13

attention to the good things instead

22:15

of dwelling on the bad. That's

22:17

an intentional choice that they've made.

22:19

So attention is not a

22:21

passive thing. Paying attention is

22:23

an intentional choice. Yeah.

22:25

Gary, I think that this is

22:27

one of those relational things

22:30

in marriages and friendships, whatever.

22:32

If you only see what you're looking

22:35

for, then you're not seeing what

22:37

you're not looking for. And so

22:39

that that could change a marriage,

22:42

it could change a church, couldn't it?

22:44

Yeah. I think you're right, Chris. No

22:46

question about it. I think this the concept

22:48

of this book, the heart of this book is

22:51

something we need to we need to regain

22:53

in our culture. Yeah.

22:54

What do you say about that, Paul? Have you seen this?

22:57

Have you been? Have you not

22:59

seen the moonwalking bear in

23:01

your own marriage?

23:03

Yeah. You know, I have, and

23:05

really again, forced me to live out what I was

23:07

writing. So I even took

23:09

the, you know, I took the time to,

23:11

you know, when my, let's say, my wife and I are

23:14

going to have a serious discussion. You

23:16

know, we all know these, right? Where you're kind of

23:18

dreading talking about something that's

23:20

important, you know, and I'm passive

23:22

aggressive. I don't like conflict, so

23:24

I run from it. You know, that's kind of

23:26

what I learned from a young age

23:28

is when conflict was going on. I

23:30

would run in my household, I

23:32

would hide and and

23:35

I feel I do the same thing. So I've had to become better

23:37

at that. But but I made a choice

23:39

and I thought, well, let me just try this, you

23:41

know? And so instead of just going straight to,

23:43

here's what's bothering me about you,

23:45

or here's what I'm annoyed with, you

23:48

know, I tried to I tried to pay attention and

23:50

really set a foundation for the conversation

23:52

by directing our attention to,

23:55

you know what? I know we both

23:57

really value, trust

23:59

and respect with each other, and I know we

24:01

both want to build a better relationship every

24:03

day with each other. And that's why I want

24:05

to talk to you about this, because I

24:07

want us to just keep doing a better job

24:09

at building this trust. Yeah. So,

24:12

so directing our attention to

24:14

the foundation, to, hey,

24:17

we're both in this together. You know, we're

24:19

in this foxhole together, basically.

24:21

You know, we both have each other's backs

24:23

and we're going to look after each other.

24:25

And to do this better, I want to talk about this.

24:28

And that really had a more profound

24:30

effect. Instead of me just you.

24:32

Right. Just throwing it right in their face, which

24:35

I think is what happens most of the time. You know,

24:37

instead of serving it up kind of on a platter

24:39

in front of somebody, we just take that

24:41

platter and shove it right in their face and say,

24:43

listen to me. Well, that

24:45

doesn't have a great effect. I think most of

24:47

us have learned in our marriage that that's not a

24:49

great place to start.

24:50

Well, that's that's a powerful point you

24:52

just made. Tell them why

24:55

you want to talk about this. The

24:58

foundational thing we want to keep growing,

25:00

you know, and I know you want to keep growing. So

25:03

let's talk about this. Yeah. That's great.

25:06

Thanks for joining us today for building

25:08

relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman.

25:10

You can find us online at Building

25:12

relationships.us. We

25:14

have some great resources for you. A

25:16

list of seminar locations coming up for

25:18

Dr. Chapman. You can hear a podcast

25:21

of the program and find our featured

25:23

resource, Paul Anthony's book,

25:25

Listen to Your Day The life

25:27

Changing Practice of Paying Attention.

25:30

Just go to building relationships.us.

25:33

Well, we've been talking about and so

25:36

far that in our culture we

25:38

seem to have lost the art

25:40

or the skill or the practice of really

25:42

paying attention. Why

25:45

is that? Why do you think we've gotten to

25:47

this place and and what's

25:49

the hope of regaining it?

25:51

Yeah, I think I think this

25:53

is such an important topic, obviously.

25:55

This is why I wrote about it. Because I think

25:57

there is such a battle for our attention

26:00

these days. You know, as we spoke about before,

26:02

we're in an attention economy

26:05

and every app and

26:07

social media platform, they're all battling

26:09

for our time and attention, and

26:12

they are getting more and more advanced

26:14

with AI and all these different systems.

26:17

That's tracking our every move, and

26:19

it's just showing us what it knows we

26:21

want to see, because

26:23

it wants to suck us in, right?

26:25

And take our time and attention. You

26:28

know, where even even even technologies

26:30

like that I talk about in the book,

26:32

the The Infinite Scroll

26:34

is one technology and that's

26:36

on something. It's on lots of them. But let's say

26:38

Instagram Stories where you click

26:40

on a story and it shows you something.

26:43

And then what does it do? It it

26:45

just scrolls right to the next one seamlessly.

26:48

Right? It doesn't even give you a chance

26:50

to think about it. And they've done that

26:52

intentionally. And one engineer

26:55

that I, that I research for the book,

26:57

he called it like behavioral

26:59

cocaine is what they've created

27:02

and they've done it to be as maximally

27:04

addictive as possible. And

27:06

they don't want your brain to catch

27:08

up to what you're watching so

27:11

that you will continue to just watch ten, 15,

27:13

20 minutes of mindless videos

27:16

so that you get sucked in and spend more of your time

27:19

on that platform. Yeah. So that's

27:21

why I do think it's so important now more than

27:23

ever, for us to be intentional

27:25

with our attention and really take

27:27

it back, because we used to answer

27:29

our phones only when they were

27:31

ringing. Now we're answering

27:34

our phones when they're not even making a sound.

27:36

Yeah, yeah.

27:37

So do you think that that the technology

27:40

has been a big part of

27:42

getting us to where we are and not

27:44

paying attention to the things that

27:46

surround us?

27:48

I definitely think so. You know, and I think

27:50

it's only going to get more intense.

27:52

Yeah. There was a gentleman called by

27:55

the name of Vance Packard, and he

27:57

he wrote about the master

28:00

manipulators that were

28:02

invading the privacy of our minds.

28:04

And he was really worried about this.

28:06

And he felt like, man, we really have to protect the privacy

28:09

of our minds because they're invading it, you

28:11

know? And he he called it the Hidden Persuaders.

28:14

You know, this was a book that he wrote in 1957.

28:18

You know, he was worried about this in 1957

28:21

with the advertising and marketing that was

28:23

taking place. And people were really

28:25

alarmed about this. Well, gosh,

28:28

how much more advanced have those

28:30

master manipulators become

28:32

where it's not even people anymore. It's

28:34

not the Mad Men right in the office

28:36

drinking whiskey, thinking about how they're going to

28:38

influence us. These are these are

28:40

dialed in AI systems

28:43

that might know us better

28:45

than our spouse knows us. Yeah, and

28:47

that's alarming, you know, and it's

28:50

catering sometimes to the worst part

28:52

of us, to our sinful nature.

28:55

And that's what it's going to cater to. So

28:57

I do think it is such an

29:00

alarming and an important part of our history

29:02

to take back our attention

29:04

and say, this is mine. I

29:06

need to choose where I'm placing this and not let

29:09

somebody else or something else make

29:11

that decision for me.

29:13

Yeah.

29:14

So you were talking about this, you know, the mindless

29:17

scrolling, just, you know, scrolling, scrolling,

29:20

scrolling and our social media

29:22

and our mind is still working.

29:25

What effect can this have

29:27

on our mental health?

29:30

Oh, man. You know, we're seeing those.

29:32

As you know, Dr. Chapman, you know, all the

29:34

all the studies that are coming about about, you know,

29:36

anxiety levels going through the roof,

29:38

depression levels, suicide,

29:41

you know, especially for younger people, you know, this

29:43

is an epidemic, you know, and obviously,

29:45

we can't equate it to just one thing. You know,

29:47

this is a multilayered thing in our in

29:49

our society. But but I

29:51

do get alarmed, and especially

29:54

with younger people, when the email

29:56

that I would get the most from them. And

29:58

these are people that are highly connected online

30:00

that might have thousands and thousands of connections

30:02

online, and the email I get the most

30:04

from them. Is. I feel so

30:07

alone. Yeah, and that's such

30:09

a paradox in our society

30:11

to be instantly connected globally.

30:14

And yet you feel more alone and

30:16

isolated than ever. You

30:18

know, and it goes back to that obsessive comparison

30:21

disorder. It goes back

30:23

to just that lack of authentic and

30:25

vulnerable relationships with people,

30:28

because it's all so highly manicured and it's

30:30

built on this online system. So

30:32

I think it has great effects to our

30:34

mental health, this this lack

30:36

of connection and real relationships

30:39

with people. Yeah.

30:40

Yeah. You know, no question about it. You know,

30:42

and the research talks about loneliness,

30:45

you know, on college campuses, for example,

30:48

that it's a huge problem here.

30:50

They are intelligent people from

30:52

all over, you know, gathered together.

30:55

They don't really know anybody, but they're

30:58

doing all this studying

31:00

and all the other things

31:03

online and and yet failed

31:05

alone around people all the time

31:07

and exposing themselves on the screens

31:09

to people all the time, and yet

31:12

not having any real personal

31:15

interfacing with people

31:17

on an honest level, you know, and building friendships

31:19

and that sort of thing. It's just it's

31:22

tragic really, to see, to see

31:24

what's happening. Why is it

31:26

important to do physical things

31:28

in a physical world?

31:32

I think sometimes we forget, you

31:34

know, that we are physical beings,

31:36

you know? And you

31:38

know, I remember thinking how

31:40

much my back and my legs

31:42

and my body was hurting from

31:45

my complete lack of movement,

31:47

not because I was over exerting myself

31:50

is because I had no exertion whatsoever.

31:52

I was just sitting at a computer all day. Yeah,

31:55

and I think there is something so powerful

31:57

with doing something physical in a physical

32:00

world, something that you enjoy,

32:02

you know, and that could be, you know, some like

32:04

gardening, you know, gardening for me is something I

32:06

really enjoy where digging in

32:09

the earth, planting things, seeing

32:11

it grow, doing it with my children,

32:14

you know, they they know all the vegetable plants. They

32:16

know what's what. And they're out there picking the tomatoes

32:18

before I can get there. And that's the biggest

32:20

problem is they they pick the choices. Tomatoes,

32:23

they're gobble them up before I can even know they're

32:25

they're ripened, you know.

32:27

But that's that's sometimes the only way they'll eat a

32:29

vegetable is if it's coming from

32:31

the garden. And they and they see it, you

32:34

know, and but those are, those are such important,

32:36

rich, meaningful times

32:39

that we just kind of step in to

32:41

God's creation. Yeah. To the

32:43

way that he has designed things and

32:45

to get away from the screen. You know,

32:47

I think we would do more for our mental

32:50

health by digging

32:52

a hole in the ground for a meaningful

32:54

purpose than we would from 15

32:56

minutes digging in some, you know, drama,

32:59

some dirt online. You know, that's what

33:01

people are dishing out the dirt online. You

33:03

would do more for yourself if you just dug a hole

33:05

in the ground. You know, and you would probably

33:07

learn more about yourself and you would get

33:09

more feelings of peace and contentment than

33:11

than you would the other way.

33:13

Yeah, yeah.

33:14

You know, you're talking about the garden now. You're

33:16

taking me back to my childhood because

33:19

my my father had a garden.

33:22

And for as long as I can remember,

33:24

we were out there planting potatoes and beans

33:26

and all that other stuff and then bringing them in. And

33:28

my mother canned them and, you know,

33:30

and we didn't even have television in those

33:32

days. Okay.

33:34

Yeah. I'll tell you

33:36

how old I am. Well,

33:39

but.

33:39

Those were those those those were those rich, seminal

33:42

memories, you know, that it's still coming back

33:44

to you, shows you that level of importance

33:47

and probably that connection that you

33:49

grew with your father during those times.

33:51

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. You know.

33:52

And again, if we always have devices around

33:55

in TV and everything, like you said,

33:57

there's such a disconnect in all our

33:59

connection.

34:00

Yeah, yeah.

34:01

Well, you know, we're we're talking about so

34:04

much information, okay. We're talking

34:06

about being saturated with information.

34:08

Information information information.

34:11

How can we break free from information

34:14

overload. And actually

34:16

comprehend what we're

34:18

consuming and understand what's

34:20

going on? Yeah, because we're

34:22

kind of blinded to it seems like.

34:25

Yeah, yeah.

34:26

Again, I think we've, I think we've bought into

34:29

a lie of sorts. That

34:31

information equals wisdom

34:34

that that the more information you get, the more

34:36

wise you are. And

34:39

that's not necessarily true. You

34:41

know, and I think we can look in today's age and

34:43

really paint a pretty bleak picture,

34:45

that the sheer volume of information

34:48

has not led to a sheer increase

34:50

of wisdom, because,

34:52

you know, obviously, wisdom is is

34:54

information and knowledge applied

34:56

correctly in this season

34:59

and the time and the place that you're living,

35:01

you know, you could you could say the same

35:04

thing, but you could say it at the wrong time

35:06

and it could lead to a bad outcome. Yeah.

35:09

So so really we

35:11

would be better off, I think sometimes

35:13

of just hearing something, let's

35:15

say even from a podcast, even

35:18

as somebody listening to this podcast, if they heard something

35:20

that really struck them as profound, I

35:23

think they'd be really well off to just

35:25

pause, pause the podcast

35:28

and think about it. You know,

35:30

think about what you just heard right about it,

35:32

you know, really reflect on that

35:34

because we again, we get so much good

35:37

information. There's so many great teachers

35:39

out there and we're hearing so much great information,

35:41

but we'd be better off just taking even just one

35:43

nugget at a time and pausing and

35:45

reflecting so that we can digest

35:48

it and we can figure out, okay, how do I translate

35:50

this to wisdom in my life? How do I really

35:53

take this in and make it a part

35:55

of my life? And just instead of just

35:57

more information that's just going in one

35:59

ear, out the other.

36:01

This is building relationships

36:03

with Dr. Gary Chapman, author

36:05

of the New York Times bestseller The Five

36:07

Love Languages. Our featured

36:09

resource today is Paul Anthony's book

36:12

Listen to Your Day The Life

36:14

Changing Practice of Paying Attention.

36:16

Find out more at building relationships.us.

36:20

Paul.

36:20

We mentioned phones several

36:22

times in our conversation here, and

36:25

you write that often our phones

36:27

is really a method

36:30

to escape. What

36:33

do you mean by that? And why do you think that's true?

36:36

Yeah. You know, I really realized in

36:38

my own life and as I looked at others as

36:40

well, that that we've become really

36:42

good cultural escape artists

36:45

where, again, we can escape any

36:48

awkward situation that we're in now.

36:50

And like we even mentioned before, we

36:53

got as at the onset

36:55

of this conversation, we talked about even

36:57

like an airplane ride. You

36:59

know, now when we sit down next to that person,

37:02

you know, it's like it's like that ten minutes

37:04

before you can take out your devices again.

37:06

You know, it's kind of like the scariest moment of the plane

37:08

ride. It's not because you're taking off and

37:10

flying thousands of feet in the air. It's

37:13

because I can't have my computer. And

37:15

what am I going to do? I don't want to. I can't

37:17

talk to this person. Let me put my hood on and just pretend

37:19

like I'm sleeping, you know, for those ten minutes.

37:22

And that's how much we dread

37:24

almost that conversation.

37:26

But but I started thinking about, you know,

37:29

we talk about chance encounters,

37:31

you know, with people. And I started thinking

37:33

about it as not so chance encounters

37:36

because what are the what are the odds

37:38

that you're sitting next to that person on

37:40

the plane right now? Yeah. What are the

37:42

odds? They're astronomical. What

37:45

are what are the odds that you're in line with that person

37:47

right now? Or that you've struck up a conversation

37:49

with somebody at the coffee shop? The odds

37:51

are, you know, out of this world. And

37:54

so what is God orchestrating? You

37:56

know, in at least should we give God the

37:59

chance? And should we at least pay attention

38:01

to maybe what God is trying to show us,

38:03

what God is trying to bring into our lives

38:05

through these not so chance encounters.

38:08

And I'm telling you, even with what

38:10

I call an awkward wanderer at conferences,

38:12

that's why I encourage young people to do. I say go

38:14

do an awkward wander around a conference

38:17

with no set idea what you're doing, just

38:19

awkwardly wander around and strike up conversations

38:22

with people. And I'm telling you, that's how

38:24

I got one of my book deals was

38:26

just awkwardly wandering around in a conference.

38:29

I went up to the lady selling books at a major

38:31

publishing house. I complimented

38:33

her, I complimented the setup. I mean, it was really

38:35

well done. I just wanted to talk

38:37

to her. I had no ideas

38:40

of any. I didn't even think it was possible

38:42

for me to get a book deal with them. But just

38:44

that one conversation with her led

38:46

me to her introducing me to the VP

38:48

of marketing. And that's where I got my

38:50

book deal. And so we never know

38:53

those not so chance encounters that were missing

38:55

every day because we're

38:57

again escaping cultural escape artists

39:00

into our phones and missing what the

39:02

profound things that God wants to do in our life.

39:04

You know, I had an experience like that just recently on

39:07

a on a plane, a man walked

39:09

in with a long beard and

39:11

sat down beside of me. And

39:14

I don't remember how we started the conversation,

39:16

but he eventually said to me,

39:18

I have not been in civilization for five

39:21

months. I've been in Alaska taking

39:23

people on hunting trips and fishing trips,

39:25

and this is I'm going home because my mother

39:28

is sick and I want to see my mother and dad.

39:30

And we had one of the most meaningful conversations,

39:33

you know, and he just poured his heart out to me and,

39:36

you know, and I walked off the

39:38

plane and said, thank you, God.

39:40

The chances of our sitting together,

39:43

I mean, what are the chances of that? You know,

39:46

the whole book here is talking about listening

39:48

to my day. So

39:50

how can I know if

39:52

I'm listening to my day?

39:54

Well, first off, you know, obviously pick up the

39:56

book, right? That's the that's the answer, you

39:59

know. But but no, but

40:01

but but in the book I really do

40:03

I leave a lot of places for people to write

40:05

and, and I'm asking readers, you

40:07

know, poignant questions throughout the whole process

40:10

and giving people exercises so

40:12

that you can begin to practice paying

40:14

attention. And again, I do think this

40:16

is something that we can practice. We

40:19

can improve upon our ability

40:21

to pay attention to what's important.

40:23

It doesn't just come naturally for many

40:25

of us, it's something that we need to work on.

40:27

And I'm telling you, if you do put in that time

40:29

in that work, man, you're going to see amazing

40:31

outcomes. You're going to see forward

40:34

movement in your life, clarity in your life,

40:36

stronger relationships, and

40:38

building those stronger connections with people.

40:41

And in the last five,

40:43

six chapters of the book, I even talk

40:45

about mindset models, which

40:48

is basically kind of like exercises for

40:50

somebody to practice paying attention in

40:52

a different way. So I even

40:54

have something like the entrepreneurial mindset

40:56

model, you know, how do you look at your

40:58

day, listen to your day, but do

41:01

it through the lens like an entrepreneur

41:03

would? Even if you don't think

41:05

yourself as entrepreneurial? Well,

41:07

let's think like an entrepreneur today and

41:09

see what that changes. You know, an entrepreneur,

41:12

they probably they pay attention to their

41:14

problems in a different way,

41:17

where they might see a problem in their day

41:19

and where other people might get frustrated

41:22

and get mad. An entrepreneur

41:24

might see a problem and they might get really excited.

41:27

Someone must have done something about this problem.

41:29

Let me research and then they get even more

41:31

excited if. Figured out no one's even touched this

41:33

problem yet, because now that's led to

41:36

a chance for a product, for

41:38

their purpose, to step in and solve that problem.

41:40

Yeah. So there's lots of these different things

41:43

that are really helpful to

41:45

kind of get out of our, our

41:47

lane, our frame of looking at things

41:49

and to look at our day from different angles.

41:52

And I'm telling you, it's been really profound for me to

41:54

to do these in my own life because

41:57

I just I've seen so much different things

41:59

that I wouldn't have done because you need that different perspective.

42:01

Yeah.

42:03

Well, you also talk about, you

42:06

know, giving the mind a path

42:08

and a purpose for each day.

42:11

How does how does that bring clarity.

42:14

Something as simple as how we're starting our

42:16

day, you know, and I know there's been tons of books

42:18

and tons of people have talked about this, but

42:21

but it's really a travesty. If we start

42:23

our day with distractions,

42:25

we really have to be intentional about how we

42:27

start our day. And

42:30

you have to make your day bigger

42:32

than your distractions, you

42:34

know? And this goes back to your your why,

42:36

you know, this goes back to your purpose, your reason

42:39

for each day. And so even starting

42:41

your day with a question to yourself

42:44

of what do I really want to

42:46

pay attention to today? What's

42:49

important to me today? What do I really

42:51

want to focus my choice attention to

42:53

today? And we'll all have different

42:56

answers to that question. But at least

42:58

by asking yourself that, you're

43:00

giving your mind direction and a purpose

43:03

to that day, so that

43:05

when you do start going down the rabbit hole of distraction,

43:08

that might be the thing that stops you and say, you know

43:10

what? My day is more important

43:12

than this distraction. So

43:14

I need to stop because I really want to pay

43:17

attention to this business idea,

43:19

to the next page I'm writing, to my

43:21

spouse, to my kids, to my coworkers. I

43:23

really want to pay my attention there because

43:26

again, I want to pay dividends with

43:28

this investment of my attention.

43:31

So that's how we start making those intentional

43:33

choices to give our mind a map and

43:35

a pathway to paying better attention.

43:37

Yeah.

43:38

Well, Paul, we've been talking a lot about

43:40

this topic, and I think our hope and our

43:42

listeners are listening and will

43:44

begin to take some steps. So what

43:47

is one action step that

43:49

our listeners should take after

43:51

hearing our conversation on this topic

43:53

today?

43:54

You know, I think we've mentioned quite a few of them. You know, there's

43:57

been great examples of things that people

43:59

can do, again, to be more intentional

44:01

with their attention and how important

44:04

this topic is right now. You

44:07

know, some one simple thing I've done

44:09

is even with my phone and

44:11

the relationship I have with my phone

44:13

is I've put in my home

44:15

screen image when I pull

44:17

up, my phone is its

44:19

sentence, and it has a picture of my book on

44:22

it. But there's a there's a sentence

44:24

that says, do I need to pick

44:26

up my phone right now? And

44:28

that's the that's what I look at. Yeah.

44:30

When when I pick up my phone.

44:33

Because at least that that stops me

44:35

sometimes. At least it helps

44:37

my mind catch up with my this

44:39

reflex response so

44:42

that I at least can make an intentional choice.

44:44

Or not to say, okay,

44:46

no, I don't. I was just doing this because I was feeling

44:48

awkward, I was escaping, let me just

44:50

pray. Let me just sit. Let me be silent.

44:52

Let me think for a moment instead

44:55

of just mindlessly jumping on the phone. So

44:57

that's even something simple we can do,

44:59

you know, put your phone in a different room, you know,

45:01

really start rethinking your

45:04

relationship with your phone.

45:06

And are you just doing it as a reflex

45:08

response, or are you using your

45:10

phone with intentionality?

45:13

Just by nature? In our culture,

45:15

if we don't have something to do this very moment,

45:18

we pick up our phone, right, exactly.

45:21

And, and, and and

45:23

that takes us, you

45:25

know, Lord knows where. Whereas

45:28

if we didn't pick up the phone and

45:30

just thought about what would be good for me to do

45:32

the next five minutes, yeah,

45:35

it's amazing what how.

45:36

Different exactly.

45:37

How different life may be would be.

45:39

You know.

45:40

And when I go to speaking engagements, I'll

45:42

ask people, you know, who after 20 or

45:44

30 minutes on your phone, on Instagram

45:46

or X or what? Facebook?

45:49

How many of us leave that time

45:51

and think to ourselves, man, I

45:53

feel so much better about my life. You

45:55

know, I feel like that was a great use of my time.

45:57

You know, I feel so much more productive and

45:59

energized, right? Yeah. We don't usually

46:02

leave feeling that way. And so, I mean,

46:04

honestly, isn't that the telltale sign of

46:06

an addiction in some of our lives where

46:09

it's something we don't even want to do

46:11

and it's not healthy for us to do,

46:13

and yet we keep smoking that cigarette.

46:15

Yeah. You know, or we keep eating that junk food.

46:18

You know, it's that same concept that we have to

46:20

be we have to have a discipline,

46:22

really a self discipline and a spiritual

46:25

discipline with how am I

46:27

choosing to pay my attention.

46:29

And it really is that important because

46:31

what again, you pay attention to, you

46:34

become. So do you want

46:36

to become the things you're paying

46:38

attention to online, or do you want

46:40

to become more like, you know, your Lord

46:42

Jesus, or do you want to become a better dad,

46:44

or a better mom or a better spouse?

46:47

What do you want to become? Because

46:49

that's what you need to pay attention to. Yeah.

46:52

Yeah. Other place I've noticed this is,

46:54

you know, we're so addicted to the phone

46:57

that when we're having a meaningful conversation

46:59

with our child or with our spouse

47:02

and our cell phone rings,

47:04

99 out of 100 are going

47:06

to answer the cell phone and

47:08

communicate to their spouse or their child,

47:11

somebody out there is more important

47:13

than you are.

47:14

Yeah.

47:14

And I don't know. That's not what we're thinking in our

47:16

minds, but that's really what we're communicating.

47:18

Yep. So wow.

47:21

Well Paul, this has been a great conversation.

47:23

It's a good book. And I hope our listeners

47:26

will not only listen to what we're

47:28

saying today, but we'll get the book and

47:30

eat from these concepts

47:32

and began to change some, some

47:34

patterns in their life, being more intentional

47:37

to see where they are and to

47:39

focus on what constructive

47:41

things do I need to be doing today

47:43

that are more constructive than simply just

47:46

picking up a phone and seeing what's going on in the world.

47:48

So thanks for being with us today.

47:51

Thank you so much for this rich conversation. It's

47:53

been an honor being here.

47:54

Paul Langone has been our guest.

47:56

If you go to Building Relationships us,

47:59

you'll see our featured resource. Listen

48:01

to your day. The life

48:03

changing practice of paying attention

48:05

again. Go to building Relationships

48:07

with us.

48:08

And next week it's our Post-thanksgiving

48:12

edition of Dear Gary.

48:14

You can ask a question of Dr. Chapman

48:16

by calling our listener line 1866424

48:20

Gary again. 866424

48:24

Gary. A big thank you today

48:26

to our production team, Steve Wick and Janice.

48:29

Backing building relationships

48:31

with Dr. Gary Chapman is a production of

48:33

Moody Radio in association

48:35

with Moody Publishers, a ministry

48:37

of Moody Bible Institute. Thank.