0:01

How do you talk about holiness

0:03

and saying no to sexual sin

0:05

and running through the Lord in temptation

0:07

and all of those things? And more than ever,

0:09

we need to speak a language that

0:11

the next generation is can understand

0:14

and hear.

0:19

Everyone has secrets, but

0:21

they'll kill you if you hold on to them.

0:23

Today I'm building relationships with

0:25

Doctor Gary Chapman. A Christian doctor

0:27

shares her secrets about sex and

0:29

shame. Don't miss this vulnerable

0:32

conversation. Straight ahead.

0:34

Our guest is author, speaker and physician

0:37

doctor Lina Abu Jama, and this

0:39

may be the most transparent and

0:41

vulnerable program we've ever aired

0:43

since we began this program. Doctor

0:46

Lina has written the provocatively titled

0:48

book, Don't Tell Anyone You're Reading

0:50

This A Christian Doctors Thoughts

0:52

on Sex, shame, and Other

0:54

Troublesome Issues. You can

0:56

find out more at Building Relationships with

0:59

Us. Gary. We've done a lot

1:01

of programs for singles through the years

1:03

and a lot of programs on sex and

1:05

marriage, but today's conversation

1:08

is going to be different.

1:09

Well, it is, Chris, and that's one reason why

1:11

I'm excited about this program today.

1:14

I think we, you know, what we're

1:16

going to be doing is hearing a lady share

1:18

her real struggles and real heart

1:20

and singles need to hear reality.

1:23

So I'm excited about our program today.

1:25

I am too, and let's meet doctor Lina

1:27

Abu Jama again. She is a pediatric

1:30

E.R. doctor now practicing telemedicine.

1:32

She's the founder of Living with Power Ministries,

1:35

a popular Bible teacher, podcaster,

1:37

conference speaker. She's written the books

1:40

thrive, Stripped, Resolved

1:42

and Fractured Faith. You

1:45

hear her on Moody Radio's Today single

1:47

Christian, and her ministry provides

1:49

spiritual retreats for women at the Hope

1:51

ranch. You can find out more about her

1:54

and the ministry at living with power.org.

1:58

Well, Doctor Lina, welcome back to Building Relationships.

2:01

Well, thanks.

2:02

For having me. I'm so excited to be here and

2:04

to have this conversation with you guys.

2:06

First, why did you title this

2:08

book? Don't tell anyone you're reading

2:10

this.

2:11

Well, it definitely creates conversation,

2:14

I can tell you that. And I

2:16

really leaned towards that topic after,

2:19

uh, had gone through a number of other ideas,

2:22

but settled on this because the reality

2:24

is that people are still not comfortable

2:27

talking about, um, sexual

2:30

related topics, particularly

2:32

in the church. Uh, in fact, I would say

2:34

this book is really written for Christians,

2:36

and I have found Christians

2:38

to be an interesting species

2:41

of people. We talk a big

2:43

talk, but we're not living what we

2:45

say. And I say this when I

2:47

talk about we. Based on statistics, Barna

2:49

consistently shows the level of

2:51

the struggle sexually in the church to

2:53

be very, very high. Uh, we can run through

2:55

some numbers, but but it became evident

2:58

as I, um, realized

3:00

there's a need for a book that's written in a language

3:02

that is understandable for people in this era,

3:04

and particularly having lived

3:06

through my life as an air doctor and

3:08

having conversations with people, including Christians,

3:10

about these topics, uh, and

3:13

kind of comparing that to the level of failure in the church,

3:15

I realized that that that, that

3:17

people want to live a

3:19

certain way, but are not Christians

3:21

want to live a certain way and or not. And one

3:23

of the key elements in that is that they don't want to talk

3:25

about it. And if you don't talk about something,

3:27

then you can't get help. And so

3:30

there's a secretive sort of hidden

3:32

area of the Christians life

3:34

that, um, people

3:36

who struggle with it, which is the bulk

3:38

of the church, um, really

3:40

wants to be free from it. And so

3:43

it's sort of the reaction

3:45

that I got from people who heard that I was writing

3:47

this book and, and teased out some of the original,

3:50

uh, title that I was working with. I

3:52

was a little frustrated with the tension

3:55

that I felt with a desire to be free, but a difficulty

3:57

talking about it that I sort of landed on this

3:59

one day. I just was jokingly told my agent,

4:01

man, this book ought to be titled don't tell anyone

4:04

you're reading this because everybody wants to,

4:06

but no one wants to admit it. And

4:08

that's where we came up with it.

4:09

I thought you probably were just assuming if

4:12

you tell people, don't tell anyone you're reading

4:14

this, they will tell people.

4:17

That happened to Jesus. Right? You

4:19

can see that in the Gospels. But I

4:22

gotta tell you, it's, uh, it is

4:24

a it is sort of a tongue in cheek. Um,

4:26

try to explain the title

4:28

in the subtitle. And I think

4:30

in a way it gives a little protection

4:32

to the person who wants to read it. And, hey, be like,

4:34

you know, it just creates conversation, even if

4:37

nothing else. And sometimes a lot of the, um,

4:39

core issues of people start

4:41

by simply creating conversation

4:43

over topics that are important to people.

4:46

Well, you mentioned in the introduction a generational

4:49

difference in approach to sexuality.

4:51

What age group are you really

4:54

targeting in this book?

4:55

Yeah, the biggest look, um, I

4:57

think about the sexual revolution in the United

4:59

States. And, you know, people think about the 60s

5:02

and Woodstock and all of that. And and

5:04

yet I still think there was an era after that,

5:06

particularly in the church where people were very

5:08

timid in addressing certain things. And I remember

5:11

growing up thinking when we heard someone got a divorce,

5:13

and there's certain sins that seemed like a big deal

5:15

back in the 70s and 80s. And, and

5:17

then there's some erosion that happened in

5:20

the culture that, you know, all

5:22

of a sudden content that would be unheard

5:24

of on television, you know, certainly, you know, 8:00

5:26

or or 5 to 8:00 hour

5:29

or whatnot. You know, growing up in my era,

5:31

I'm a Gen X, uh, person. I'm in my early

5:33

50s and. And sort of, you know,

5:35

we saw this shift happen. And I think

5:37

the shift has accelerated tremendously, obviously,

5:39

since the creation of the cell phone. And

5:42

particularly, you know, when when all of the,

5:44

you know, post 2007, but even post

5:46

2015, I think the amount

5:49

of sexual content in our culture has exponentially

5:52

increased and become more available so

5:54

that people who are born, I'd say millennials and

5:56

under have a

5:59

certain sensitization

6:02

to sexual content and certain,

6:04

um, exposure that we had

6:07

to look for when I was growing up.

6:09

It was harder to get in trouble, so to

6:11

speak. You didn't happenstance

6:13

on content that would create problems

6:15

for you down the road. And so whereas, you know,

6:17

we we still had sexual sodomy. Sexual sin

6:19

has been around since the beginning of time, since

6:22

Adam and Eve fell. But but really now

6:24

I think the understanding of as an

6:26

example, when you think about what what kids

6:28

see, 11 is the average age that a child is

6:30

first exposed to porn. And I think almost

6:32

95% of kids will see porn by age

6:34

14. And that's just porn. And I'm not even

6:37

talking about that in this book, per se. It's

6:39

one of the things that I addressed. But but

6:41

it's this, this sense that there

6:43

is a next generation that has

6:45

grown up in the church, that doesn't think about

6:48

sex the way that myself and

6:50

how we were brought up, and certainly my parents

6:52

and how they brought us up. So

6:55

and I've seen this even in discussing this book,

6:57

if I find people who are 50 and over,

6:59

they might appreciate the book, but they blush

7:01

when they talk about it, and then you catch

7:03

someone who's 25 or 30 and they're

7:06

able to address certain things. They're not ashamed

7:08

by certain words that we discuss, that

7:10

I discuss in the book that every human has been dealing with

7:12

since the beginning of time. And I think

7:14

my heart in writing it was really for

7:16

that younger generation that is not

7:18

growing up with that same sense of

7:21

sort of teasing out, you know, purity culture has taken

7:23

a people have had big debates

7:25

online about what purity culture is and,

7:27

and where that fits into the church. And how

7:30

do you talk about holiness

7:32

and, and saying no to sexual

7:34

sin and running to the Lord and temptation

7:36

and all of those things. And I think that

7:38

the game has changed and

7:41

more than ever, we need to speak a language

7:43

that the next generation is

7:45

can understand and hear, which is part of why

7:48

I wrote the book the way I did, with a very sort of blunt,

7:50

er, style, so to speak, and

7:52

very personal fashion.

7:54

Now you're quite vulnerable in this book,

7:57

for example, you call yourself a

7:59

50 year old virgin, and yet

8:01

you're speaking to a high percentage of Christian

8:03

young adults who aren't virgins. Uh,

8:06

talk, talk, talk about that.

8:08

Yeah, I I'll tell you, I

8:10

knew I knew I was vulnerable in the book. I, and I

8:12

intentionally chose to write it this way. I have

8:15

seen a lot of Christian books on

8:17

sexual topics that I've read and

8:19

looked at and message and statistics

8:22

in the past, but what I had seen lacking

8:24

is not many people

8:26

have written in a way where they just say, here's what

8:28

I'm dealing with. And and when it is

8:31

written, it's always with a sense of,

8:33

you know, I once was lost, but now I'm finding

8:35

found I was blind, but now I see. And so,

8:38

you know, there's a sense of like, once you're a Christian,

8:40

you ought not have these feelings. And so.

8:43

And then we would scratch our heads and go, why are

8:45

pastors failing the degree that they're failing? Well,

8:47

perhaps we're talking about this experience

8:50

of sexual sin and and temptation and

8:52

why we do what we do in a more theoretical

8:54

fashion than is and is real.

8:56

And I never thought this. So I knew

8:58

writing about it authentically and vulnerably.

9:00

I knew I was stepping out of the usual Christian

9:03

box of addressing these topics.

9:05

Um, and I think my er, background

9:07

pressed me to that because, again, I feel

9:10

a sense of urgency to

9:12

address sin again

9:14

in a way now, in a way that that

9:16

needs to be addressed. We're all hurting

9:18

in the church in the United States, and

9:21

we'll get to that in a second. But but what I

9:23

didn't expect, Gary, is, is

9:25

that the issue of vulnerability

9:27

would be that I'm a virgin. It

9:29

kind of still surprises me that

9:31

that is the stigma. I don't know why

9:34

that came to me as a surprise. In fact, the numbers

9:36

one one, um, writer

9:38

that I've quoted that I've referred to his

9:40

work who is a Christian professor David

9:42

Ayers, uh, has written, has worked

9:44

extensively on statistics related

9:46

to, has written books on trying

9:49

to estimate, like how are Christians doing

9:51

in following the moral code

9:53

that Jesus wants us to follow? At the end of the day? I mean, we

9:55

didn't make this stuff up. We're finding our cues

9:58

from Christ and from the Bible. And

10:00

and so he found in in

10:03

what he pulled close to 5000

10:05

young adults, ages 25

10:07

to 40, Protestant, conservative,

10:10

never married Christians,

10:13

men and women equally pretty, equally split.

10:15

And he found out of those, 89%

10:17

of men and 92% of

10:19

women who are again conservative,

10:22

Protestant, self-proclaimed Christians,

10:25

he's a professor at a Christian college. Many of

10:27

his sample people were in that setting.

10:29

89% of men and 92% of women have

10:32

had at least one opposite sex partner in the. Five

10:34

years. And then once somebody had one,

10:36

the odds of having three or more

10:38

exponentially increases. And so

10:40

you're right to say, it has been a surprising

10:43

stigma for me to find that

10:46

that item that I am

10:48

a 51 now year old virgin,

10:50

is sort of the repelling

10:53

fact that people go, man,

10:56

I don't think I want to read a book about this

10:58

by a person who's never had sex, and I want to scratch

11:01

my head and go, but wait, what has

11:03

happened to us in the church? When

11:05

to me, that was like the Bear bar.

11:07

I'm not even saying I'm sexually pure. I

11:09

go into the details of my own baggage

11:12

to try to explain to people that

11:15

you don't have to sleep with multiple people

11:17

to have sexual sin. It's in our hearts.

11:19

The question is why? Why

11:21

do we keep going to the same pit

11:24

of vomit and and refuse

11:26

to understand the goodness

11:28

that God has given us? And so, yeah,

11:30

you're correct to say that that

11:32

there is a stigma. Yeah.

11:35

This is building relationships with

11:37

Doctor Gary Chapman, author of the New York

11:39

Times bestseller The Five Love Languages.

11:42

If you want to suggest this broadcast

11:44

to a friend, send them to building relationships

11:47

with us. They can hear a podcast

11:49

right there. Our guest is Doctor

11:51

Lina Abu Jama, author

11:53

of the book Don't Tell Anyone You're Reading

11:55

This A Christian Doctor's Thoughts on

11:58

Sex, shame, and Other Troublesome Issues.

12:00

Again, find out more at Building Relationships

12:03

with us.

12:04

Doctor Lena, why do you think the church hasn't

12:07

been able to speak as openly

12:09

and honestly as you've done about

12:11

sex and shame and singles?

12:14

A certain degree, you could say it's an enigma

12:17

to another. It's not the not.

12:19

The easy answer is, I mean, leaders are afraid to

12:21

admit deep baggage. They

12:24

I will say they do talk

12:26

about it sometimes. I've looked

12:28

on and off online sermons, and even

12:30

more recently I felt like there has been more conversation

12:32

about it. But I worry

12:35

that the conversation is always has

12:38

been, been there, done

12:40

that. And that gives

12:42

the sense, especially for a person who's struggling

12:45

with daily temptation. It

12:47

gives the sense that if you're still struggling,

12:49

something must be wrong with me. I

12:51

don't think the honesty comes from people

12:53

genuinely coming up and really talking. And

12:55

I'm not saying it's not happening, but it's rarely happening where

12:58

someone really genuinely says, here's what I still struggle with,

13:00

here's where how I'm dealing with it, and here's what God's

13:02

teaching me. I think it's because pastors

13:04

are scared. If they admit to certain things,

13:06

they will lose their job and their livelihood, which

13:09

to a certain degree, I felt like I was called

13:11

to write this book because I did have certain

13:13

protection from the fact that I

13:15

work. I run a nonprofit and

13:18

I am not, you know, I work

13:20

as a physician. I have a very

13:22

stable and satisfying career,

13:24

and the Lord has put me in a place where I can.

13:26

And I think in my all my books, I've been able to write

13:29

with a certain level of freedom that,

13:31

um, you know, I just I mean, the worst

13:33

thing I have to lose is my pride. And isn't

13:35

that what got me in the door in the first place

13:37

is the fact that I realized that without

13:40

Christ, I can't. I'm doomed

13:42

anyway. And so that's

13:44

the whole point of Christianity. And so

13:46

and I think there's a freedom that comes with knowing, you know,

13:48

for me, writing it like once, once Christ

13:50

knows everything he already did. But once you

13:52

step out of the woods, you know, like Adam and Eve, they're hiding.

13:54

Once you come out of hiding and God

13:57

dresses you with, you know, so is it. You

13:59

know, I think there is a freedom in that. But I also I

14:01

am perplexed. So going back to the church, I mean,

14:03

the you know, we know why pastors

14:06

are afraid to talk about it to this degree. But honestly,

14:08

I think the church has been naive. And

14:10

the more I've talked about this topic, even since the book

14:12

has come out, the stronger I feel about this.

14:15

I think that we're in denial. I think

14:17

we genuinely have convinced ourselves that this is not a problem,

14:19

that there's a few people in the church, the men who

14:21

struggle with porn, you know, the teens

14:24

who might go through, you know, the questioning

14:26

their sexuality, all the you know what, your kid

14:28

is gay. How did they get to that point? And, I mean,

14:30

we have these exceptions to the rule,

14:32

but we somehow underplay

14:34

the reality of what we're seeing.

14:37

People are fessing up like there is not a single

14:39

statistics on sexual sin out there

14:41

that doesn't show the church immensely

14:44

steeped in sexual sin. Yeah.

14:46

And so we ought to be talking about this. Yeah.

14:49

Well, you do, of course, in the book, no

14:51

question about it. Sharing your own struggles.

14:54

You know, typically what you've said already,

14:56

I think it's true. If we're hearing

14:58

a Christian talk about their struggles

15:00

in this area, people

15:02

expect to hear, okay,

15:05

but now I've got this

15:07

conquered. Now that's that's that's history.

15:09

That's not that's not present and that's not

15:11

the approach you take.

15:13

Yeah. Because I think I've been painfully

15:15

honest in my life and I

15:17

am painfully honest as a, as a that's probably

15:20

why I landed in the ER because I believe

15:22

that that is a conviction

15:24

and a something. I was brought up

15:26

with you. You can't you can deny

15:29

and you can. You can reject Christ, you can reject

15:31

the teaching. But but be honest about it. And

15:33

I think as an E.R. doctor, what drives me in the E.R. is

15:35

that I value honesty. I,

15:38

I give it to people, and I, and I

15:40

take what people tell me face value. And

15:42

so I can't talk about a topic without

15:44

being honest. And I think the honest

15:46

truth is that we are living in a

15:48

sexual world right now. Like you can be.

15:51

You can't anymore live in the West. Yeah,

15:53

I would even say globally, but you cannot.

15:55

I mean, unless you don't own a smartphone,

15:57

which I think there may be like three people

16:00

on this planet who still don't have a smartphone.

16:02

They exist. I'm not saying they don't, but they exist.

16:04

And many people who have gone by the way through sexual

16:06

sin have gotten rid of their smartphones. But it's immensely

16:09

hard to live as a person with

16:11

a smartphone. Further, if you're single, like

16:13

you know you a lot of people want

16:15

to think about this struggle as, oh well, you're single, you have

16:17

the struggle. And I'm constantly baffled

16:20

by this, this reception

16:22

because I think, first of all, most

16:24

as an example, pastors who have imploded

16:27

with sexual sin have all been married. I

16:29

mean, that stories we hear divorce,

16:31

pornography, it's not happening because they're married.

16:34

Because most of the people who struggle that are

16:36

in a marital relationship. And so

16:38

this is not a singles problem, but let's say

16:41

it was half your church is single. We already

16:43

know that 52% of the West is

16:45

single. That doesn't all include never married,

16:47

but a big bulk of it is never married. And

16:49

again, you go back to the never married. I mean,

16:51

we're not just talking about porn here. We're talking about all

16:54

of what here's the biblical

16:56

standard of what we believe. This book is

16:58

written for people who hold to the biblical

17:00

standard. I'm not even writing to people

17:02

who don't. And having said that, if

17:05

we hold to it, why is there this dissonance

17:07

with the way that we're living? And,

17:09

you know, I think I think part of also,

17:11

you know, another observation in

17:13

all of this is that really, you

17:16

know, I think even about your question about why don't

17:18

we talk about this? And I think one

17:20

of the other crises in our culture, besides

17:22

the fact that we are very sexualized, given

17:24

the interaction, you know, the exposure that we have on

17:26

our phones, which is secretive and

17:28

plentiful. But I think also

17:30

we've never been worse off in terms of our

17:32

relationship with the local church. And

17:35

so even when people go to church now,

17:37

it doesn't mean the same thing as it did back

17:39

in the 70s when I used to think otherwise.

17:42

So you might show up to go. You go to church, you show

17:44

up on Sunday morning for 45 million an hour

17:46

and you're done. And most pastors now, most churches

17:48

have been at in the last three years,

17:50

have worked really hard at keeping

17:53

their services under a certain, you know, by

17:55

an hour, you know, you're going to be out of there 75 minutes

17:57

at the most. You don't have

17:59

the same relationship with people in your church that you did before.

18:02

So where are you supposed to unpack a lot of your

18:04

baggage? Where are you supposed to

18:06

learn what it looks like to live the Christian life,

18:08

to die to self daily, to not

18:10

question your faith? Every time

18:12

a you're faced with temptation and be

18:14

also getting through. Why do people turn to these

18:16

things? Because they were lonely. We know we have a loneliness

18:19

epidemic. What do they have now? That loneliness? They're hiring

18:21

in the government. They're paying a person who's an ambassador

18:24

to loneliness. Think

18:26

about that. That's crazy. Yeah. And so

18:28

we have these problems that we're aware of and

18:30

and so then we go, oh, I wonder why people are turning

18:32

to porn, or I wonder if people are having affairs or I wonder

18:34

people. Well, because they're lonely. Yeah.

18:37

And we need to think through that

18:39

sort of macro, like what can the church

18:42

do? How can we as a culture leaders

18:44

in the church, how can we think through this

18:46

in a way that that can help save

18:48

lives so that the person who's 15,

18:51

struggling with same sex attraction because they happen to come

18:53

upon something on the internet or or the 20

18:55

year old who had sex with their, you know,

18:57

the boyfriend, you know, who has now

18:59

is pregnant and or, you know, on and on. You can

19:01

look through scenarios. They're not going, well, I must not be a Christian.

19:03

I'm leaving this church. I mean, I've been reading my Bible every

19:06

day and it's not working. Yeah, yeah,

19:08

well, maybe it's just poor discipleship.

19:11

Well, you talk a lot about shame in

19:13

your own life. What do you mean by shame?

19:15

And why do so many Christians

19:18

harbor shame?

19:20

Shame has been a hot topic. Brené

19:22

Brown is probably the most famous psychologist

19:25

who has talked about it publicly, although

19:27

I would imagine every psychologist has dealt

19:29

with dealing with this with their patients

19:32

over time. I mean, because that's sort of what leads people

19:34

to get help is this sense of deep shame.

19:36

And I think, you know, the nuance between guilt and shame.

19:38

Of course, people can, you know, the

19:40

easy quote would be like guilt.

19:42

As you know, I did wrong. Shame, I

19:45

am wrong. Something is wrong with me. So it's not

19:47

just the action, but the entire being.

19:49

And I still, you know, I sometimes

19:51

have a hard time completely. You know, I think you understand

19:53

those things intellectually. But bottom line,

19:56

um, I think shame is, is

19:58

that feeling that keeps you from telling the truth,

20:01

lest you be found out. What will people

20:03

do if I tell them? How will

20:06

they love me? Will they want me? Well, you already

20:08

have a sense of shame because you're seeped

20:10

in whatever mess you're in, and

20:12

that can be any sinner. Addiction doesn't even, I

20:14

mean, but frankly, that can apply to a whole lot

20:16

of secrets, including women who had abortions

20:18

in the church. I mean, there's such a sense of, you

20:21

know, I am bad.

20:23

And and then you think about

20:25

the gospel, the good news. And, you know, again, intellectually,

20:27

well, Christ died to erase our guilt,

20:29

but also our shame. And so

20:31

I find it fascinating, this whole, you know, idea

20:34

of shame and how it plays out and, and

20:36

and frankly, the reason I have never talked

20:38

as openly about this topic has been

20:40

because I've been ashamed. Right?

20:42

How can I confess that at 50,

20:45

45, 40, you know, I still get

20:47

tempted. I still struggle with, you know, with having

20:49

to kill the flesh and and on and on. And it took

20:51

me a couple of years of therapy before I was able

20:53

to really talk to someone that I knew professionally.

20:56

I mean, there's this mind that says, professionally, she's

20:58

not going to be good to all people because that is

21:01

part of her oath as a psychologist psychologist.

21:03

So I finally found some freedom

21:06

in a safe place that I hadn't found

21:08

in the local church. And and that was when

21:10

I was started, you know, had Christ already

21:12

paid the price for my guilt? Absolutely.

21:14

I could have told you that. There's no condemnation to

21:16

those around Christ Jesus. I can quote the verse,

21:19

but but there was a sense of

21:21

freedom, which I think that

21:23

like so, so intellectually, I've always understood

21:25

that Christ has forgiven me, but it's almost

21:27

like shame is the emotional part of it, the soul

21:30

part that says, I can. It's okay

21:32

to come to Christ like, I think when

21:34

you're so ashamed of what you've done and, and

21:36

and how you ended up there, I think

21:38

you start to separate from Christ rather than

21:41

the thing that will cure you, which is to run to Jesus.

21:43

But we feel ashamed, like Adam and Eve in the garden,

21:45

rather than going for Christ, we hide,

21:48

which leads to more shame. Now, interestingly,

21:50

you know the culture has done with shame like never

21:52

before. I've never in my life seen what

21:55

the degree of what we've done with shame. I

21:57

think in the 60s it was a bit there, but it

21:59

was secluded to Woodstock. People

22:01

were unashamed. They took all their clothes off, you know,

22:03

burned their bras. You know you can.

22:05

I'm not even talking about the feminist woman. It's just there was just a freedom

22:07

of, like, doing whatever you want it to do.

22:10

But it was we it was always that.

22:12

Oh, the hippies, oh, the drugs.

22:14

Oh, that this. But now it

22:16

is pan cultural. You see

22:18

this phenomenon across the board

22:20

of we are a shame free

22:22

society. And so you've got the Instagram

22:25

accounts of people, you know, posing

22:27

in bikinis who are and I don't I'm honestly not

22:29

picking on that. But as an example, you know the

22:32

don't body shame me whatever your body

22:34

size is. You know, we used to be ashamed that the

22:36

only people size two would show their bodies.

22:38

Now, it doesn't matter if you're a size 22 or 2

22:40

and that's just one area of it. But whatever

22:42

it is, your sexual preferences, your, you know,

22:44

there's sort of a pride in throwing

22:46

off your shame, which

22:48

is fascinating because that

22:51

doesn't fix your shame problem. That

22:53

might make you feel good for a second, but you're still

22:55

stuck with yourself at the end of the day with

22:57

a bag of guilt and shame. And so

23:00

the approach that Christ gives us

23:02

isn't to hide it, or deny it,

23:04

or tattoo over it, or

23:06

to expose it per se, just for the sake

23:08

of exposure, but it's to expose it to

23:10

Christ, who has paid the

23:12

sacrifice for us, so that in understanding

23:15

who he is and what we have in him, and

23:17

being freed from guilt, we can also step into

23:19

the light and find this

23:22

other place of joy and freedom

23:24

and richness, no matter

23:26

what we're still struggling with, and

23:28

that is what motivates us to change. It's not

23:30

that changing brings us to Christ, but

23:32

it's the Christ in us, and the beauty and

23:34

preciousness of Christ leads us

23:36

to want to live

23:39

differently.

23:40

So for the Christian is this.

23:43

Is this like a lifelong process

23:45

or pursuit of dealing

23:47

with shame, or is it, you

23:49

know, one time experience and God

23:51

did this. Da da da da da. Right.

23:54

Uh, well, how do you respond to that?

23:56

If it was a one time thing, Doctor Chapman,

23:58

you'd be out of a job, right? I

24:00

mean, there are no. It's like the cure

24:02

for the common cold. You and I are guaranteed to

24:04

have jobs the rest of our lives because people hurt

24:07

and people get sick. I will take care of

24:09

their physical bodies. And you will help them with their souls,

24:11

right? I mean, at the end of the day, I say this a little

24:13

sarcastically, but but really, the truth of it

24:15

is it is a lifelong thing

24:17

and it's always something, right? You can

24:19

and it's like any other I think about.

24:21

I think about the struggle with sexual sin. To

24:24

me, it's it's the easiest way to sort of break it down.

24:26

I mean, you hear I mean, I've been in churches

24:28

where I'll have a, you know, hear a testimony

24:30

of a man who stands up and says, you know, hey, I

24:32

was an alcoholic, or I was addicted

24:34

to meth and my own pastor. You know, Carl

24:37

talks about his past when he was on cocaine

24:39

back in his 20s. Like he tells the story over and over

24:41

again. And so I'm not saying anything that isn't public

24:43

knowledge. And he was written about it, but he

24:45

talks about how God saved him and then he got

24:47

over it, you know, like like I think there's a lot

24:50

of these these Paul the Apostle

24:52

moments of salvation. It used to smoke and

24:54

now they don't. They used to drink, now they don't. But

24:56

by and large, there's a whole lot

24:58

of other Christians who, uh,

25:00

will continue to battle. Well,

25:03

we're all going to continue to battle sins, but we might not

25:05

see that dramatic. I once struggled

25:07

with sexual sin or with lost, and

25:09

now I don't. For some of us, it will be an

25:12

ongoing thing. And there's certain things that you can do in your life that

25:14

will minimize that constant struggle.

25:16

I mean, those are practical things that a lot of groups

25:19

like Covenant Eyes and, and Accountability

25:21

Groups and Celebrate Recovery have integrated.

25:23

And and we'll talk about those in

25:25

a minute, because I do I have a fair

25:27

critique or I you

25:29

know, I critique a lot of things in the book because I don't

25:32

think they've always worked. And my

25:34

point in the book hasn't been to say that those things don't

25:36

work, but that we have to ask ourselves

25:38

why they don't work. And I think, I

25:40

think that's a separate question,

25:42

but I think, um, you

25:44

know, I think at the end of the day, all

25:47

of these struggles

25:49

that we have for any sinful

25:52

habit or addiction or place that we turn

25:54

to to numb our pain, ultimately

25:56

goes back to our relationship with the Lord.

25:58

It's all about this intimate connectedness

26:01

with the Lord. And the more we feel this

26:03

delight in Christ and what he's done for us,

26:05

and the more we sense him filling us completely,

26:07

the less we have a need to go to other

26:09

things, uh, for satisfaction.

26:12

And too many of us don't get to

26:14

that place, honestly. And this is really what

26:17

the heart of the book was. That is, you're never

26:19

none of us are ever going to find satisfaction

26:21

in other things. So, yeah, you may overcome your

26:23

alcoholism, you might overcome smoking, you might

26:25

overcome your sexual lust. But there's going to be something else.

26:28

Maybe it's finances. Maybe to you it's a respectable

26:30

addiction. Maybe it's your workaholism. You know, whatever

26:32

it is that you're getting your security from, if it's not

26:34

Christ, oh, eventually you're going to

26:36

find yourself hurting and trying to numb that pain

26:39

with something that is not going to satisfy

26:41

you until you learn to find your

26:43

all your satisfaction in Christ.

26:46

That's the whole plot of Saint Augustine, ultimately, which

26:48

is what led to my mom to get saved in

26:50

her college age years. It was the famous

26:52

quote of Saint Augustine that our hearts are

26:54

restless until they find their

26:57

rest in thee.

26:58

You're listening to Building relationships

27:00

with Doctor Gary Chapman, author of the

27:02

New York Times bestseller The Five

27:04

Love Languages. Find more

27:07

ways to strengthen your relationships

27:09

on our website. Building relationships

27:11

Us. We're talking with

27:13

author and speaker doctor Lina Abu

27:15

Jama. Her book is our featured resource

27:18

today. It's titled Don't

27:20

Tell Anyone You're Reading This A Christian

27:22

Doctor's Thoughts on Sex, shame,

27:24

and other troublesome Issues. Find

27:26

out more at Building Relationships with

27:29

us.

27:30

Melina. Some words and struggles are

27:32

really difficult to talk about in the church.

27:34

You know our own on the radio,

27:37

which you do. Was it easier

27:39

for you to talk about this topic because

27:41

you knew the church wasn't talking about

27:43

it? Was that a part of your motivation,

27:45

and did that make it easier for you to

27:48

do this?

27:49

You know, I once

27:51

I'll tell the story in the book, but I've told it at

27:54

speaking engagements before. It's probably worth telling. I

27:56

my first patient, I did

27:58

the entire physical exam. I

28:00

was young, I was nervous, I had finished

28:02

two years of med school and was so eager

28:04

and I, uh, finished the

28:06

examination head to toe was my first patient.

28:09

I was alone myself and the patient in the room, and

28:11

I went to wash my hands. And I realized after doing

28:13

the exam that I'd forgotten to wear gloves.

28:15

And and, you know, I didn't tell anyone

28:17

for ten years, literally. And it wasn't when

28:19

I came up. It was it was, you know, people, what

28:21

do you do? Well, I wash my hands real good, you know, like,

28:24

you know, things happen. Like you can't look back and

28:26

change what happens. But all

28:28

this to say, I am comfortable as

28:30

a physician, 25

28:33

years into my practice talking about anything.

28:35

I have no discomfort

28:37

talking about anything. I appreciate that

28:39

there are certain. Things that are going to be better handled

28:41

for me, talking about certain things than they

28:43

will be for the average Joe because of the experience

28:46

that God has given me in the air, addressing

28:48

things that are uncomfortable and addressing them from

28:51

a certain degree with a professionalism that

28:53

has grown over time. And so

28:55

while I don't take joy in and you

28:57

know, my point isn't to like, there's a way

28:59

to talk about things to shock people. Do you know, I've done

29:01

all of these interviews for this book, and I've not

29:03

mentioned the words that bring people discomfort.

29:05

And it's intentional because I don't think there's a

29:07

need. But but there is a need for them to be

29:10

said. And I felt like a book is a place

29:12

where that can be said in a book

29:14

where someone can read it and hear

29:16

the experience that they may be going through

29:19

that has freaked them out and

29:21

made them feel ashamed and alienated

29:23

from God and others, and understand that

29:25

they're just words we've given. And we could change a word.

29:27

And it wouldn't carry such a yuck

29:30

kind of feeling. And I think that's.

29:32

Yeah. So I do think, I mean, my being a doctor

29:34

has impacted my ability to write in

29:36

a way that is, frankly, this is life.

29:39

And we got to talk about these things. Yeah.

29:41

With so many pastors and authors

29:44

getting caught in affairs and scandals.

29:48

Is that why you think the church needs

29:50

to be more forthright about sexuality?

29:54

Yeah, I think honestly.

29:56

In 2023, 24 now, I

29:58

think the church church is a bit of a joke to

30:00

people who are not in the church. I really

30:02

grieve to say this, but honestly, it's

30:04

we're not doing well and I don't see

30:06

this as an alarmist. I think this is a fact.

30:09

Oh, people always say, oh, my church is doing great. I'm

30:11

not. I'm not talking about your church. I'm sure you're doing great.

30:13

You're, you know, 300 people in your community.

30:15

But as a whole in the United States, people

30:17

don't have a good impression of of

30:19

the church. And I think that's

30:21

really should grieve us honestly. That should be

30:24

so sad for people who follow Jesus that when

30:26

did we become like that? We're known for our political

30:28

views. There are more scandals

30:30

in the church. Yes. What? The tipping point for

30:32

me was throughout the book was hearing of yet another

30:34

scandal of a worship leader. And

30:36

that one I knew him one when it

30:38

came out a year or whatever a time ago,

30:41

I, I it was after

30:43

a series of other famous preachers who had had

30:45

big stories, but this one was someone

30:47

that I was watching

30:49

write worship songs that had moved

30:51

my heart. And I had thought God

30:54

had done a deep work in that person,

30:56

so that by the time the affair came out

30:58

and the marriage was on the rocks,

31:01

it stunned me. This wasn't a person who

31:03

was a one off like, oh, whoops, I was

31:06

in the wrong place at the wrong time. It wasn't a person who

31:08

who was outside of the church. This was a

31:10

person in church leading worship, writing

31:12

worship songs. I just didn't. It was

31:14

a kind of a it's

31:17

stomp in my brain like, what happened?

31:19

How did we get to the place where we're hearing

31:21

about this? And

31:24

I honestly,

31:26

I still I think about why would I write a

31:28

book on this thought? Why would I give myself

31:30

up? In a sense, why would I? I don't, you know, it

31:32

was hard for my mom to read the book. I mean, she read

31:34

it eventually, but I am so

31:37

desperate to see God bring revival

31:40

to the American church, and I don't I do not

31:42

think we're past it. I think God could still

31:44

move in us. But until we.

31:47

Stop feeling ashamed like the

31:49

whole premise. Don't tell anyone you're reading.

31:51

You're reading this until we're ready to tell people

31:54

what's going on in our lives. How

31:56

can we be taken seriously in

31:58

a culture that that just

32:00

looks us and says, man, you talk a big talk, you

32:02

criticize the LGBTQ, you

32:05

vote this way in that way, but yet look

32:07

at your lives every other week is another

32:09

pastor who's molesting or

32:11

abusing or this or that. So

32:13

I think we need to wake up and I do.

32:15

The longer time has passed since the book has come

32:17

out, the more a deep spirit of conviction

32:19

has has grown in my heart a

32:21

desire for holiness and

32:24

really a hunger to reach even the younger

32:26

generation. To say, hey, here's where we screwed up.

32:28

Like, I genuinely, I really believe that

32:30

part of the problem of the 10

32:33

to 30 year olds is we didn't do

32:35

them right in the way that we

32:37

taught purity, and

32:39

I think we've created a sense

32:42

of the unachievable

32:44

in a certain way. So when you hear 90% of

32:46

women who've had sex and 89% of

32:48

men, I don't look at that stop

32:50

and think, oh, I can't believe you're this big

32:52

letter. You know, you fallen. I'm still a virgin. That's

32:54

not the spirit. I think the spirit is. Why,

32:56

why, why did why are all these men and women

32:58

turning to that? How have we not taught

33:00

them what it means to delight in Christ

33:02

and be so satisfied than him that we don't turn

33:05

to to that, and then feel such

33:07

regrets in our lives over decisions

33:09

we've made, or even worse, not feel regret

33:11

and feel like, well, that's how I test it out. Or

33:13

or I'm not even sure. The Bible. Now I'm hearing

33:15

a lot of people say, well, the Bible doesn't even teach premarital

33:17

sex is wrong. And I think, when did we grow a generation

33:20

of Christians that can't even see clearly enough

33:22

in the world to understand that sexual

33:25

relationships outside of marriage are not

33:27

part of God's plan for us?

33:28

Yeah, yeah.

33:30

I think all of us are

33:32

aware that there's

33:34

so many Christian leaders and pastors

33:36

who are failing in this area,

33:39

and it seems like every week there's a new

33:41

report somewhere, maybe

33:44

that happened in the generation that was passed

33:46

and it just wasn't known because

33:48

technology wasn't there to put it out to

33:50

everybody. But my

33:52

sense is that this didn't

33:54

happen as much as often in the past.

33:58

Yeah. Why do you think it's happening

34:00

so much now with Christian leaders?

34:02

I honestly think I genuinely think it's the

34:04

phone. I know it's it's such an easy prey, but

34:06

I really, genuinely believe it's the access.

34:08

It's access. The phone brought us access

34:11

before. I mean, you had to go buy

34:13

the magazine and hide it in your house, and your

34:15

kids could possibly find it, right?

34:17

Think about it even. How do you meet people

34:19

now? You just get on an app. You

34:22

can have an affair. You don't know the

34:24

video content, you know. And at

34:26

the end of the day, Satan has planted

34:29

himself. You know, we all we know

34:31

already, it's not they're not special. If you struggle

34:33

with lust. I mean, there's three sin categories

34:35

that are constantly referred to in the New Testament.

34:38

First, John talks about the lust of the flesh, lust

34:40

of the eyes, the pride of life. So one

34:42

of those three categories is this.

34:45

Right. So again, you go back to like, we already

34:47

know we're going to be prey to sexual sin. Like

34:49

we see that pattern in Scripture. All, you

34:51

know, there's it's it's it's this

34:53

is not something God shied away from speaking about

34:55

in his word. And and so and

34:57

so when you look at that, you kind of go, man.

35:00

Before it was like it was it was already

35:02

something that we dealt with. But it took a little more

35:04

effort. It wasn't as anonymous. There is this,

35:07

this fog. I think that happens

35:09

in the brain. When you start walking

35:12

into the path of sexual sin, you

35:14

almost lose sight. I mean, this is why people have affairs,

35:16

how you kind of go, how are you? How didn't

35:18

you think anybody would find you? I think there's a fog

35:21

that makes a person, you know, think that

35:23

they're no one's going to see, no one's going to find out. And

35:25

now that ability to get into that space

35:27

of fog, be it through literature, through reading

35:29

sexual books, through watching sexual

35:31

content on movies or through exploring,

35:33

you know, pure pornography or through dating apps

35:35

and on and on, you know, the, the, the

35:38

immodesty that's now in our culture that

35:40

is, you know, everybody basically Christian

35:42

or non-Christian, even Christians, you know, that

35:44

that are leaders in the Christian writing

35:46

and speaking world. I mean, you'll sometimes look at pictures

35:49

and go, man, I don't understand how

35:51

are they, you know, wearing this. And then

35:53

if you say that you're considered a fuddy duddy

35:55

or, or you're like being to use

35:57

their body, they can do what they want. And I just think

35:59

these thoughts are not biblical. And so,

36:01

you know, again, you go back to I'm not talking

36:03

to a world that I don't I cannot

36:06

like. This conversation is completely different to

36:08

someone who holds to the Word of God and someone who doesn't.

36:10

I'm talking to people who say, yes,

36:12

I believe the Bible is God's Word and it is inspired

36:15

and it's good. And I want to

36:17

follow the Lord. And I see in that

36:19

category of people those

36:21

those shocking, like, how

36:24

do you not see what God says about modesty,

36:26

about sexuality, about sin, about

36:28

the nature of the heart? And I think,

36:30

yeah, I think we need to do a better job of

36:32

talking about these things. The everything that I'm

36:35

talking about are conversations that people are having

36:37

in the workplace, online. We're

36:39

just not doing it well in the church.

36:41

Yeah.

36:42

Yeah. It seems that just like the culture

36:45

the church seems to be. Confused about

36:47

sexual identity, gender, you

36:49

know. So why why are many Christians

36:52

drifting away from an orthodox,

36:54

you know, solid biblical view of sexuality?

36:58

It's easier. Right? It's first of

37:00

all, it's easier in a family sense. Like when you

37:02

are now growing up, you know, you're in a home, your kids grow

37:04

up and they're questioning their identity and they're,

37:06

you know, choosing same sex, uh,

37:09

lifestyles, whatever, you

37:11

know, range of that. I think it's easier to

37:13

say, oh, well, maybe, maybe I was wrong on

37:15

on that, on what the Bible taught and then

37:17

have an all encompassing, you know, sort of what

37:19

Andy Stanley is, is, is described

37:22

as making a big circle rather than drawing lines.

37:24

Problem with that, you know, of course, is the fact

37:26

that the Bible doesn't teach that,

37:28

but nonetheless, these kind of a

37:30

little slack and, and think, okay, I can appreciate

37:33

like the desire to help them see that their

37:35

love because I think no matter what your sexual sin is,

37:37

by the way, I don't think there's any one that's

37:39

worse or better than other. But I think and

37:41

I appreciate that there's consequences

37:43

that might be graver with certain sexual

37:45

sins than others. But I still think at the end

37:47

of the day, if the church isn't

37:50

a place where you can come and

37:52

find answers and love, then we have a problem.

37:54

So I understand now that the pendulum

37:56

swinging to saying, well, I want to accept that, you

37:58

know, my, my kids and my grandkids. So

38:00

I think there's a sense of first of all, it's easier

38:03

to to say, well, I accept you. Now let's

38:05

talk about Jesus. The problem is you lose people

38:07

when you fluctuate that much on what you believe.

38:09

But but forget the individual,

38:11

okay? I appreciate the mom who's trying

38:13

to figure out how to navigate this relationship with

38:15

her kids and grandkids and and whatnot,

38:17

but but the church, let's kind of step back

38:19

about that. And I think, honestly,

38:22

it is puzzling to me how many churches now

38:24

are 100% changing their view

38:26

on what the Bible teaches on these topics. And you

38:28

got to wonder about that. And I think, you

38:30

know, I don't want to overthink that,

38:32

but I think sometimes it's because we've caved

38:34

on other sins, you know, like like think about the divorce

38:37

era back in the 70s and, and

38:39

80s. It used to be a big deal to get a divorce.

38:42

And now it's almost like no one even thinks about it.

38:44

You don't even like it's not even a seed. Like, people

38:46

are like, oh, you're just divorced. That's not even a big deal. And

38:48

again, I appreciate the pain that led to

38:50

divorce. I'm not. I'm just saying the fact

38:52

is, if we've changed our views on divorce

38:54

and remarriage and doing it over and over

38:56

again, and pastors, we used to say, well, a pastor couldn't

38:59

be a pastor if they divorced. And now we've gotten rid of that.

39:01

And so is it any surprise

39:03

that we've changed our views on some of the more

39:05

controversial, current sexual,

39:08

you know, decisions and practices?

39:10

And so I think we've compromised I think

39:12

really we're paying the price for our compromise. And I

39:14

also think because we are not individually

39:16

holy, I think that's the other side of it is it's

39:18

hard to point and say, well, this is wrong

39:20

because you know what you're doing. And I think that's been

39:22

one of the biggest freedoms that I've experienced

39:24

in talking about my, you know,

39:26

stuff is that I do feel

39:28

like God is continuing to

39:31

free me and I am living victoriously,

39:33

but it's not because of any effort I've done, it's because

39:35

I know where I've been. And I know that God is still

39:37

love me and accepted me. And who's what

39:40

you can't like. You can't touch that freedom that comes

39:42

from being completely condemned

39:44

by the only one who could condemn.

39:48

Thanks for joining us for building relationships

39:50

with Doctor Gary Chapman. And thanks for

39:53

telling a friend about the program.

39:55

If you know someone who would benefit from

39:57

our discussion, send them to building relationships

40:00

with us where they can hear our conversation

40:02

with Doctor Lina Abu Jama.

40:04

She's the author of Don't Tell Anyone

40:06

You're Reading This A Christian Doctor's

40:08

Thoughts on Sex, shame, and Other

40:10

Troublesome Issues. Find out more

40:13

at Building Relationships with us.

40:16

Doctor Leana, throughout our conversation

40:18

today and in the book, you do emphasize,

40:20

you know, the relationship with Christ as

40:23

being really the foundation stone

40:25

here. You talk about dying

40:27

to self daily. What

40:30

does that look like in your life?

40:33

Yeah.

40:34

You know, it's so I've grown up hearing,

40:36

by the way, dying to self. So it's not a new concept

40:39

practically. I mean you could say, well

40:41

you know that's the problem you're just not dying to

40:43

solve. And I think we can be so

40:45

legalistic about dying to self. In

40:47

fact, that's probably a good time to talk a little bit about

40:50

why I you know, I recently had a conversation

40:52

with an editor of a journal and

40:54

we, you know, he, he he observed

40:56

that, you know, are you do you belittle the

40:58

practices, you know, the the things

41:00

that we do in the Christian life, like the disciplines?

41:02

Because I do talk about the empty formulas

41:05

that haven't served us well. I

41:07

grew up in a in a legalistic background,

41:09

which really what that is, I mean, I think is, is

41:11

very much a conservative Christian background that

41:14

tends to highlight works.

41:16

Your godliness is based on how

41:18

you do. And I think that

41:20

dying to self can become easily

41:23

a work. That sort

41:25

of earns you favor with God. And

41:27

it's a nuance. I don't know that

41:29

it has an easy answer because the heart of the Christian life

41:31

is dying to self. You can't come to Christ dying

41:34

to self, but it's a work that the Holy Spirit

41:36

has to do in you. So before you act,

41:38

the actions of dying to self,

41:41

because this is what we do, we go, oh, I'm gonna get rid

41:43

of the internet. I'm gonna get rid of the apps.

41:45

I'm gonna, you know, whatever you

41:47

build this, like rule of ten things, I'm gonna do

41:49

those things, and then I'm gonna be safe.

41:52

And then God's gonna be happy with me, and then I'm gonna get

41:54

victory, and then I'm gonna even be closer

41:56

to the Lord. But. And we might do

41:58

that. And I've done that for a month, even six

42:00

months, even a year, even more.

42:02

And then what happens? What, you get

42:04

tired because you can't sustain it,

42:06

because you weren't meant to sustain it. And one

42:08

day you wake up and you're hurting and you're lonely and you

42:10

fall back into whatever practice, whatever habits

42:13

you are in. And then you go, oh my gosh, I must

42:15

really be bad. So do you do it again and do again,

42:17

you know? And so it becomes exhausting. And

42:19

I think dying to self can

42:21

become that sort of rote. Here's

42:23

my six things I'm gonna not do. I'm gonna walk on coal.

42:25

I'm gonna drink this concoction

42:28

in the morning. You know, whatever. Six things that we think are

42:30

going to bring us holiness. But, but, but, but

42:32

the very missing essence of what's going

42:34

to delight me and fill me, which is Christ.

42:37

If we would start with him, then, Titus,

42:39

I was easy. And so I think it's like

42:41

it's sort of like the two sides of a coin. Yes,

42:43

there has to be a daily dying to self, and part

42:45

of dying to self for me has been understanding myself

42:48

better, understanding the times,

42:50

the seasons, the triggers that

42:52

set me up. And I think that's

42:54

been the gift of counseling to me, is working through that

42:57

angle, which is to understand when I

42:59

tend to lean on

43:02

whatever it is that has brought me comfort in the

43:04

past, even temporarily. And

43:06

now understanding that sort

43:08

of the well, first of all, understanding that even

43:10

if I happen to to fall

43:12

in that way, I'm still loved by God. I

43:15

think that there's that that is a hard

43:17

thing to talk about. Like, does God love

43:19

you if you never change? Or do you have to change in order to

43:21

show that God, you know? So I think we can be also

43:23

very legalistic in that conversation, because I genuinely

43:26

believe grace is free and unearned,

43:28

and God loves us whether we change

43:30

or not. And yet again,

43:32

I say this cautiously because change is a

43:34

sign that you have received Christ.

43:36

And I think the wrestling is part of the dying

43:38

to self. It's this, it's it's

43:41

admitting and confessing and

43:43

growing over time.

43:45

I think there are many people who are asking

43:48

themselves in the light of our culture,

43:50

you know, is it really

43:52

possible for a follower of Christ

43:54

to live a holy life in

43:56

our present culture?

43:59

You know, I don't just think it's possible. I think it's

44:01

our gift. And I think it's

44:03

our legacy. And I think it's.

44:06

I think that's

44:08

the longing that God has for us. And I think

44:10

the reason we're depressed in the church

44:12

just as much as outside of the church and the reason

44:14

we're, you know, our numbers

44:17

in terms of our habits and our our

44:19

struggles are not necessarily that much

44:21

different from the world is because we don't really we

44:23

haven't really embraced that idea. And I think revival

44:26

will come when we really go back to

44:29

the truth of the gospel, that

44:31

we have been completely transformed. And,

44:33

you know, we're like, I read this thing yesterday, the story,

44:36

and it's a familiar story about the

44:38

there was a guy or a little kid who

44:40

found some eagle eggs, and he took

44:42

the eagle egg and put it with the chickens.

44:45

You know, it's like an old sermon illustration.

44:47

And then and then the eagle was

44:49

born among the chickens and grew up among the chickens.

44:51

And and one day he looked up in the

44:53

sky, and he was a little older, pecking at the little, you know,

44:56

stuff on the ground. And he looked up and saw an

44:58

eagle flying. He and he looked around him and said,

45:00

wow, that's such a beautiful bird.

45:02

I wish I could be like that. And the

45:04

chickens around him looked at him and kind of chuckled

45:06

and smirked. I said, yeah, well, don't

45:09

hold your breath. That's the eagle. He's the most beautiful

45:11

bird in the planet. You just, you know, you'll never

45:13

be that. And meanwhile,

45:15

there's this eagle who

45:17

can't even understand who

45:20

he is, what he's been given. That's

45:22

our problem, is we've lost our sense of identity

45:24

in Christ. And if we could just reclaim

45:26

that, how do you reclaim that? Well, you you you

45:28

draw near to the Lord and you're assured

45:30

that he will draw near to you. And you do it with all

45:32

of the. I come back at the end of the book, and I do talk about

45:34

the fact that it's all of this stuff. The thing that has

45:36

saved me in my Christian life are the disciplines,

45:39

the fact that I wake up in the morning and read my Bible

45:41

and the Lord has taken me

45:43

through highs and lows. But the one

45:45

steadfast constant in my life is

45:48

his presence with me and in

45:50

me, and through this fellowship of

45:52

Christ, through His Word. And so

45:54

I support the formulas. But I think you have

45:56

to know why they're there and how

45:58

they lead us to the heart of Christ, which

46:00

is our joy.

46:02

Yeah.

46:03

Is your message any different for

46:05

the person who's facing same sex attraction?

46:08

I talk about that in the book, actually, and

46:11

I think it is not at all different.

46:13

We have been sold on the lie

46:16

that somehow what we feel

46:18

is who we are, and that is

46:20

not a Christian message.

46:22

The Christian message is our identity is

46:24

in Christ. And sometimes we feel happy and

46:26

sometimes we feel sad. And you might be attracted

46:28

to someone who's buried, and sometimes

46:31

you might be attracted to someone who is of your

46:33

same sex. The question is understanding

46:35

God's way and submitting to it. Which

46:37

again, I go back to. If you came

46:39

to Christ at some point, you

46:41

had to leave everything

46:44

behind. All your ideas, all

46:46

your theories, all your other gods, and

46:48

embrace them. It's no different than that. In

46:50

the daily walk of dying to self,

46:52

it's making the choice. And

46:55

I know that's a hard message, especially

46:57

for someone who is same sex attracted

46:59

to here, but it is the truth of the gospel. We

47:02

have been crucified with Christ. It is whether

47:04

you're gay or straight or whatever.

47:07

You define yourself on that spectrum. We have

47:09

been set free. Christ lives in us, and we have the ability

47:11

to honor God with our bodies and our minds and our hearts.

47:14

And I believe it is not only possible, but

47:16

it is what he's doing in us right now

47:18

as we continue to pursue him until

47:20

the day that we see him face to face.

47:22

Doctor Lena, as we come to the end of our

47:24

time today, let's say

47:27

there's someone who's listening and

47:29

they're living in a cycle of sexual

47:31

sin and shame. What do

47:33

you suggest that they do?

47:35

You know, first of all, that's why we're doing this show.

47:38

I know that that these are difficult conversations.

47:40

But first of all, you're not alone if you're listening.

47:43

And that's you. That's why I wrote the book.

47:45

Honestly, part of it wasn't even to give you, like,

47:47

here is a three step formula. You do

47:49

these things and you're cured. It's not about

47:51

being cured. It's about seeing clearly and understanding.

47:53

We're all in this together. We're

47:56

the church, but seeing and understanding

47:59

what that means. And so I would encourage

48:01

this person there's hope for you no matter

48:03

where you are, what you've done, what you think you

48:05

deserve. God doesn't see

48:07

the same way he sees Christ in us. If you've received

48:09

Christ as your Savior, he is in

48:11

you and over you. In Christ. God sees him

48:14

in us. And so be encouraged. First

48:16

of all that there is hope. This is not the end of

48:18

your story. I think a good starting point

48:20

is read the book. But again, if you

48:23

want something even better, read the Gospels

48:25

and remember who Christ is.

48:28

And you know, and I think at the end of the day,

48:30

reach out to someone and I, you know, on our

48:32

own website for the book, which is Doctor

48:34

Lena book.com, we created a

48:36

place where you can tell your story. It's not public. You can

48:38

choose if you want us to put it public or not. There's some

48:40

stories you'll read. You're not alone in this. There's been others

48:43

who've shared their stories, but that

48:45

might be a way to reach out to us and say, here's what I'm dealing

48:47

with, and we can try to point you or to encourage you.

48:49

And so, you know, I have

48:51

done that cycle so many times in my life

48:53

where I would be victorious for a while and then fall

48:55

again. And it's so easy to question everything when

48:57

you're in that darkness of. Feeling like, man,

49:00

I've done it again. And for

49:02

that person, I would say today

49:04

is a new day. Lamentations three God's

49:06

faithfulness are new. His mercies are again

49:09

yours today. Grab onto them.

49:11

There is no better way to joy than

49:13

to remember who you are in Christ and what he's done

49:15

for you.

49:16

Melina, thank you for being with us today, and

49:18

thank you for investing time

49:21

and energy in writing this book. I do believe

49:23

that it's going to help many people

49:25

because the reality is all of us

49:28

face issues in this area of life.

49:30

So thanks again for being with us today.

49:33

Thank you for having me.

49:34

Well, there's so much hope about this topic.

49:37

I hope you've heard that in Lena's voice

49:39

and in her message today. If

49:41

you go to building relationships with us,

49:43

you'll see Doctor Lena Abu-Jamal. Excellent

49:46

book. Don't tell anyone you're reading

49:48

this a Christian Doctors thoughts

49:50

on sex, shame and other

49:53

troublesome issues. Again, go to building

49:55

relationships.us.

49:58

And coming up next week with all

50:00

the cruelty and incivility

50:02

in the world, we need a reminder

50:05

of God's kindness.

50:07

If you're overwhelmed by your circumstances,

50:10

don't miss the encouragement in one week.

50:12

Before we go, let me thank our production

50:14

team, Steve Wick and Janice backing

50:16

building relationships with Doctor Gary

50:19

Chapman is a production of Moody Radio

50:21

in Chicago in association

50:23

with Moody Publishers, a ministry

50:25

of Moody Bible in.