0:00

God provides us healthy

0:02

boundaries in life. Not

0:04

just gods know, but also God's.

0:06

Yes. And so we have to

0:08

be able to help our kids to see the goodness

0:11

of biblical sexuality, and that

0:13

how this is provided by

0:16

God for our good to thrive.

0:23

Welcome to Building relationships with

0:25

Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York

0:27

Times bestseller The Five Love Languages.

0:30

Well, how do you effectively teach teenagers

0:32

about biblical sexuality?

0:34

Parents and grandparents will want to hear

0:36

more about the Holy Sexuality

0:38

Project on today's program.

0:40

I think this is going to be one of those resources

0:43

that will help a mom and dad, grandma,

0:45

grandpa who are facing all

0:47

of the changes in the culture about

0:49

sexuality and identity

0:51

and really give solid biblical

0:54

direction. So excited we have

0:56

Dr. Christopher Ewen with us today. Gary,

0:58

this is a huge issue in the church

1:00

and in the culture, isn't it?

1:02

No question about it. Chris,

1:04

just recently in our own church here, our pastor

1:07

or essentially our pastors got together

1:10

and said, you know, we've got to address some of these issues.

1:12

So they just kind of taught us six

1:14

weeks, you know, course

1:17

dealing, just dealing with some of these things. So, yeah,

1:19

this is very important in our culture.

1:21

And I am great for that.

1:23

We have Christopher with us today to

1:25

discuss this, and I hope our listeners will stay

1:27

tuned because this is going to be extremely

1:30

helpful.

1:31

Well, let me introduce him. Dr. Christopher

1:33

Ewen is a 2005 graduate of Moody

1:35

Bible Institute. He received a master's

1:37

in Biblical Exegesis in 2007,

1:40

a doctorate in ministry in 2014.

1:43

His speaking ministry on faith and

1:45

sexuality has reached five continents.

1:47

He and his mother, Angela, co-wrote

1:49

the memoir out of a Far Country

1:51

A Gay Son's Journey to God

1:53

A Broken Mother's Search for Hope.

1:56

It sold more than 130,000

1:58

copies in eight languages.

2:01

We've talked about his book Holy Sexuality

2:03

in the gospel here in the program, which

2:05

was named the 2020 book of the year

2:08

for Social Issues by Outreach Magazine.

2:11

Now that book has been adapted

2:13

as a video series, it's called

2:15

The Holy Sexuality Project.

2:17

It released in June of 2023,

2:20

and it's a 12 lesson, 36

2:23

video series on biblical

2:25

sexuality specifically

2:27

for parents and grandparents and their

2:29

teens or pre-teens.

2:32

That's what we're going to talk about today. You can

2:34

go to Holy sexuality.com

2:37

to find out more, or you can find a

2:39

link at our website. Building relationships.us.

2:42

Well, Dr. Yuan, welcome back to Building

2:44

Relationships.

2:46

Oh, thanks so much for having me back.

2:47

Dr. Chapman know you were with us

2:50

four years ago talking about the book

2:52

Holy Sexuality and the gospel.

2:55

Tell us about this new video series

2:57

and what's the purpose behind

2:59

this new effort?

3:02

Well, you know, very much like the book.

3:04

I, I wanted to help

3:06

Christians to have

3:08

a really solid biblical theological

3:11

foundation. Oftentimes we want to kind of jump

3:13

into doing right, but we need to think right

3:16

before doing right. And

3:18

I think once we have that foundation, there's going to

3:20

be so many different things. I mean, we're we're

3:22

seeing all this kind of surprise

3:25

as we see as we're dealing with sexuality and gender,

3:27

but new things are going to come in 5 or 10

3:29

years. And when we have a solid foundation,

3:32

we're going to be able to kind of build on that.

3:34

So really, the the purpose behind

3:37

this video series

3:39

is to empower parents

3:41

and their teens and preteens

3:43

to understand, embrace and celebrate

3:46

biblical sexuality. We don't want just people

3:48

to understand because that's just head

3:50

knowledge, but we want them to embrace

3:52

it for themselves. This is so good

3:54

that I that I'm going to live it out

3:56

for myself. But, you know, it's not just

3:58

so good for myself. We want them to celebrate.

4:01

And that means we're going to tell others about

4:03

how good is God's truth

4:05

when it comes to sexuality, relationships.

4:09

Well, certainly a needed area in

4:11

our culture today, for sure. For

4:13

those who don't know your story, can

4:15

you give a brief overview of how you became

4:18

a Christian and your own background?

4:20

Sure. I wasn't raised in a

4:22

Christian home and I wrestled with my

4:24

sexuality from a young age. I

4:26

came out of the closet as I would have said

4:29

it back then. I

4:31

told my parents I broke the news that

4:33

I was gay, devastated my mom and

4:35

dad. But through that crisis, this is

4:37

what's so cool, Dr. Chapman. My mother

4:39

came to faith and then my father

4:41

did as well. And after,

4:44

you know, I saw the change in them.

4:47

But I thought, good for you, not for me.

4:49

I went in the total opposite direction.

4:51

I'm originally from Chicago. I was in

4:53

Louisville, Kentucky at that time pursuing

4:56

my doctorate in dentistry, and

4:58

I just went did

5:01

what all my friends were doing at that time, which

5:03

was have fun party. I was spending

5:05

a lot of time in the bars

5:08

and the gay clubs, and this

5:10

whole time my parents had no

5:12

idea I was not only,

5:15

you know, spending time in the clubs.

5:17

I started experimenting with drugs. And this whole

5:19

time while I was a graduate student student,

5:22

I was. Eventually, unfortunately expelled

5:24

from dental school. I

5:27

was not only doing drugs,

5:30

but selling drugs. I moved from Louisville,

5:32

Kentucky to Atlanta, and

5:34

there I kept doing what I knew how to do best, which

5:36

was live in the world and

5:39

have fun, quote unquote fun.

5:41

And I was not only doing

5:43

drugs, selling drugs, but also supplying

5:45

drugs. Like I said, my parents

5:47

didn't know all the depths of

5:50

just rejection of God and

5:52

His ways, but they

5:54

knew that I needed to know

5:56

Jesus Christ as my Lord and

5:58

Savior. So they tried to reach out to the

6:00

love of Christ. I wanted nothing to do with it.

6:02

They came to visit me one time in Atlanta.

6:05

I kicked them out. And you know, here's the funny thing,

6:07

Dr. Chapman, that we hear that the narrative

6:09

is Christian parents cannot

6:11

love their gay children. They have to actually throw

6:13

the Bible away. They have to become

6:16

a so-called progressive Christian to love their

6:18

gay child. I had the exact opposite

6:20

experience. My parents were not

6:22

Christian. They rejected me.

6:24

It wasn't until they became followers

6:26

of Christ they could do nothing

6:28

other than to love me as God loved

6:30

them while they were still sinners,

6:33

while they were enemies. So

6:36

I began. I just rejected

6:38

them. Kick them out. My dad, before he left, gave me

6:40

his Bible. I threw it in the

6:42

trash can and it was so obvious

6:44

that I was hopeless.

6:48

But my parents committed not to focus

6:50

on hopelessness, but

6:52

upon the promises of God.

6:55

And over, along with over

6:57

100 prayer warriors, they began to cry out

6:59

to God for me. My mom began to pray a bold

7:01

prayer. Do whatever it takes

7:03

God to bring this prodigal son

7:06

to you. Well, that answer to

7:08

prayer. And she fasted every Monday for seven

7:10

years, 39 days. One time

7:13

that answer to prayer came with a bang on my

7:15

door. And it was

7:17

12 federal drug enforcement agents,

7:19

Atlanta police, two big German Shepherd

7:21

dogs. So I found

7:23

myself in jail. And

7:25

a few days after that, I was walking around the cellblock.

7:27

And you know what I found, Dr. Chapman? A

7:30

Gideon's New Testament on top

7:32

of the trash. Took it back

7:35

to my cell block, to my

7:37

prison cell, and I began reading it, not

7:39

thinking that, you know, this is a good book.

7:41

I just thought, I've got tons of time on my hands.

7:43

Well, as we know, God's word is

7:45

sharper than any double edged sword. And it began

7:47

to convict me and

7:50

I thought, things are going to get worse. Well it did. I

7:52

got news that I was HIV positive. I

7:54

was called to the nurse's office and I got that news

7:56

and I was just devastated. Well,

7:59

a few days after that, I was laying in my

8:01

cell and I look up at the metal bunk above me

8:03

and someone had scribbled, if you're bored,

8:06

read Jeremiah 2911.

8:09

There could have been any verse,

8:11

for I know the plans that I

8:13

have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper

8:15

you, not to harm you, plans to give you a future

8:18

and a hope. I mean, this verse was written to

8:20

Judah in rebellion, in exile,

8:22

and I knew that if God could still

8:24

have a plan for Judah, he

8:26

may even still have a plan

8:28

for me. Well, I didn't know what that

8:31

meant, and I

8:33

just began diving myself into the Bible.

8:35

And I just thought, well, maybe I could have my

8:37

cake and eat it too. Maybe I can have God

8:39

and still live in this way

8:41

that doesn't align with his truth.

8:44

So I went to a chaplain and I

8:46

asked him his opinion. And this chaplain,

8:48

this is so shocking. He gave me

8:50

a book explaining that the Bible

8:52

does not condemn homosexuality.

8:55

And I thought, great, I had that

8:57

book in one hand, the Bible and the other. Everything inside

8:59

of me wanted to affirm it, but it was God's

9:02

indwelling Holy Spirit that convicted

9:04

me that this was a distortion of God

9:06

in His Word, gave it back to the chaplain.

9:08

I turned to the Bible alone, and I realized

9:11

that God that I had

9:13

put my identity in the wrong thing. And

9:15

God was not calling me just

9:17

to change my desires.

9:19

That was so limited. He was calling me

9:21

to holiness. And

9:24

so a God called me to. And also

9:26

don't put my identity in my sexuality

9:28

or in anything alone. My

9:30

identity need to be in Jesus Christ

9:32

alone. So it was during

9:34

this time God called me to ministry while

9:37

I was in prison. I applied to Moody

9:39

while I was in prison. My and you'll

9:41

love this. My references were prison chaplain,

9:43

a prison guard, and another inmate.

9:45

So amazingly I was accepted.

9:48

Released from prison in July of 2001.

9:50

Start the very next month. And

9:52

so I was so excited to be at Moody

9:55

and I finished it. Moody 2005 went

9:57

on to my master's and exegesis,

9:59

as Chris was saying, and I actually taught at Moody

10:01

for 12 years, which is an enormous

10:03

blessing. And I had the great honor

10:06

to co-author book with mom called out

10:08

of a Far Country a Gay son on this journey to God,

10:10

a Broken Mother. Search for Hope, and

10:12

then write this book.

10:14

Well, that that original book was a powerful

10:16

story. And what you've just shared with us is

10:18

a powerful story of God's

10:21

work. You know, he knows. How to find us

10:23

where we are and to bring us

10:25

to himself. So, well, thanks

10:27

for sharing that. I think it's important

10:29

for our listeners to to understand

10:31

who you are and the journey you've been on.

10:34

You know, as we've come to discuss this new book,

10:36

so is it fair to say that you

10:38

want young people to know

10:40

what the Bible really says about

10:43

sexuality instead of a caricature

10:46

that they may have heard? If

10:48

I'm coming from common culture.

10:50

Absolutely. You know, when

10:52

we see right now what's going

10:55

on in the culture, especially among our

10:57

kids, not just teenagers

10:59

and pre-teens, but our kids in

11:01

grade school, as a matter of fact,

11:04

our ministry team what we really

11:06

want to do first, they wanted my

11:08

parents. They wanted to do a

11:10

video series for kids because that's

11:12

really where they're being started

11:15

to be attacked by this information.

11:17

And I kind of vetoed it because

11:19

I thought, we need something for preteens and teens

11:21

first, and then. So our actually our next project

11:24

is the Holy Sexuality Project

11:26

for children and for kids.

11:28

But there I feel

11:30

like there's a tsunami of misinformation

11:33

from from our from the culture

11:36

and from public school and from

11:38

their peers and from media and

11:40

from Disney, from Google. And

11:43

so we need to help our kids to

11:45

see that, that there are

11:47

healthy boundaries. Just

11:49

as parents provide healthy boundaries

11:52

for their children. God provides

11:54

us healthy boundaries in life,

11:57

and we need to know what those are.

11:59

Not just gods know, but

12:01

also gods. Yes. And

12:04

so we have to be able to help our kids

12:06

to see the goodness of

12:08

biblical sexuality, and that how

12:10

this is provided by

12:12

God for our good to thrive.

12:16

This is building relationships with

12:18

Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the New York

12:20

Times bestseller The Five Love

12:22

Languages. Well, there are so many parents

12:25

and grandparents who will benefit from our guests.

12:27

Resource. Dr. Christopher Ewen

12:29

is talking about the Holy Sexuality

12:31

Project, a 12 lesson, 36

12:34

video series on biblical sexuality.

12:37

You can find out more at our website. Building

12:39

relationships.us or

12:41

go to Holy Sexuality. Com.

12:44

So, Christopher, what makes the Holy

12:46

Sexuality Project different

12:49

from other presentations on sexuality?

12:52

Yeah. You know, I think

12:54

there's been a few resources in the past

12:56

that helped help our kids to

12:58

understand while

13:00

there are kids, while they're teenagers,

13:03

how there needs to be some limitation

13:05

and some boundaries, but sometimes

13:07

comes off. It's just this, don't do this, don't do

13:09

that, don't do this. And to be honest, Dr. Chapman,

13:11

those actually are very important things

13:14

we need to be teaching our kids in general,

13:16

not just on sexuality. This is what you should

13:18

not do. But we can't

13:20

stop there because we can't build a Christian

13:23

life just on God's

13:25

know what is God's. Yes, we

13:27

need to know. God's know and God's yes,

13:30

not only on sexuality but in general.

13:32

And so that's why I kind of wrote my book.

13:34

And also, I knew I needed to communicate

13:37

this with this video series

13:39

for parents and their teens and

13:41

and not just for parents, but also for grandparents

13:44

in their teens. And so we

13:46

we see that relationships

13:49

are so, so important.

13:51

One of the most important relationships that we

13:53

have is between a parent and

13:55

a child. And yet,

13:57

unfortunately, as we're seeing in the world

14:00

now more than ever, that relationship

14:03

is trying to be hijacked, if

14:05

you will. It's taken away. Public

14:07

schools, government. They

14:09

give this impression that

14:11

they can do a better job, especially

14:13

if you are a Christian parent.

14:15

You might be giving information to your

14:17

children that's harming them. That's essentially

14:19

the message that we're hearing today. And

14:22

there's now pushback, which is good

14:24

pushback because that's incorrect. But

14:26

here's something else that's happening. We

14:29

can see how that's being almost

14:31

enforced on us through the public schools

14:34

and the government today. But

14:36

I think there is almost

14:38

a sense where Christian

14:40

parents are kind of forfeiting

14:42

their responsibility of parenting

14:45

to someone else. Where does that happen? I

14:48

think unfortunately, it's sometimes

14:50

happening in the youth group. Now, this is not

14:52

intentional, but I think sometimes

14:54

parents think, well, I'm going to drop my kids off

14:56

at youth group and the youth pastor

14:59

is going to do my job. What is that? They're going

15:01

to do the job of discipling

15:03

my children. Now, should youth pastors

15:05

disciple their children? Absolutely.

15:08

But they shouldn't be the primary disciple.

15:10

So what sets this apart, different

15:12

from other presentations is we're

15:14

actually very intentionally not

15:17

designing this to show

15:19

to youth groups. Now, is that

15:21

a bad thing? Have solutely not. I think that's good.

15:23

But here's the issue. I haven't

15:25

really found any resources that are primarily

15:29

not for youth group, and they're primarily

15:31

for the home because

15:33

these discussions about biblical

15:35

sexuality need to be primarily done,

15:38

not so much in the classroom, not

15:40

so much in the youth group room, but

15:42

in the living room and the dining room

15:44

and the family room. So this is what I

15:46

think sets us apart, where we are

15:48

actually in strongly

15:51

encouraging home discipleship.

15:53

And that takes a lot of paradigm shifting

15:55

and breaking of paradigms, because I think

15:57

even in churches, we are kind of inadvertently

16:00

giving this impression that,

16:03

you know, parents, give us your

16:05

kids and we'll do your work

16:07

now. I mean, the

16:09

schools, they will teach our kids about math

16:12

and science. ET cetera. But when it comes to

16:14

sexuality, that

16:16

has to happen primarily at home.

16:18

So so that's really, I think,

16:20

what sets this video series apart

16:22

to really empower parents

16:25

and grandparents to do

16:27

the job that God has ordained them to do.

16:29

Yeah.

16:30

Greatly, greatly needed in

16:32

our culture today. You mentioned

16:35

grandparents. I was speaking

16:37

recently, and a host told me

16:39

that in their state, 60%

16:42

of the children in that state

16:44

are being raised by grandparents,

16:46

primarily because, you know, the

16:49

parents are either on drugs, they're in prison,

16:51

or they've died. And

16:53

I know that you have a heart for those grandparents

16:56

and what they're up against in

16:58

today's culture as well.

17:00

Yes, I really do. And

17:02

this comes a lot from

17:04

my mom and dad. My

17:06

my dad went home to be with the Lord.

17:09

He was 82. My mom now is 81.

17:12

So, you know, she knows

17:14

as being a grandmother. Their

17:16

spiritual grandmother and

17:19

the need for grandparents,

17:21

because right now, it's

17:23

all hands on deck. Dr. Chapman.

17:26

There. We need

17:28

everyone. There's

17:30

such an onslaught. There's so much

17:32

misinformation. And

17:35

like you say, I mean parents, sometimes

17:37

they're not there, but also parents. It's

17:39

they're busy. They're they

17:42

they have to work. They they got

17:44

to provide. They've got other children.

17:46

So we need grandparents

17:48

to come alongside. And why is that

17:50

important? Because God

17:52

has ordained them to

17:55

be a part in

17:57

discipling their children. We know

17:59

Deuteronomy six very well. That's where we got

18:01

the greatest commandment, hero

18:03

Israel. And it says, you know, to love

18:06

the Lord your God, love the Lord your God

18:08

with all their heart, with all your soul, and with

18:10

all your might. Well, what's

18:12

the context of that? Right

18:14

before that it says that we

18:16

need to teach these things.

18:19

Teach them diligently

18:21

to your children. Well,

18:24

I'm. I want to challenge parents

18:26

and grandparents. Are you teaching

18:28

your children diligently the ways

18:31

of the Lord? Not only that, but

18:33

also biblical sexuality. Because

18:35

I'll tell you right now who's trying to

18:37

do that diligently the world,

18:39

their peers, the media.

18:41

And we need to be even more

18:44

diligent in doing this. But here's something

18:46

else that gets to your question, Dr. Chapman,

18:48

when it comes to grandparents.

18:51

Well, at the beginning of chapter

18:53

six, in verse two, it says

18:55

that that we need to teach them to fear

18:58

the Lord your God, who you,

19:00

your son and your son's

19:03

son. So actually,

19:05

right here in the greatest commandment,

19:07

the context of that is

19:09

discipleship by parents

19:11

and their children, but also right here.

19:13

Let's not miss this. Grandparents

19:16

and their grandchildren. There

19:18

are so many reasons why this is so important.

19:20

I mean, first of all, grandparents

19:23

usually have more time. Well,

19:26

when I say this, I often get grandparents

19:28

and they shake their head, no, I'm busier than ever.

19:31

Yes, you have more flexibility,

19:33

but let's redeem that

19:35

time. Are we simply

19:38

just relaxing, or

19:40

do we realize actually God has

19:42

ordained grandparents right here

19:44

in Deuteronomy six grandparents

19:46

to be some of the people that are diligently

19:49

teaching their grandchildren

19:51

now have fun with your grandchildren.

19:54

But having fun does

19:56

not save our kids. Are

19:59

we passing on a legacy,

20:01

a legacy of the Lord that

20:03

will be eternal? Having fun,

20:06

taking them to soccer games, all that

20:08

stuff that's temporary.

20:10

Even providing resources,

20:13

even providing monetary legacy.

20:16

Legacy. That's temporary.

20:18

Let's pass on a legacy

20:21

that is eternal, that's

20:23

grounded in God's truth.

20:26

Yeah.

20:27

So important. So important.

20:30

You alluded to this earlier, but paint

20:32

a picture of what's happening with sexuality

20:35

in our culture. That is how far

20:37

away from biblical framework are

20:39

we today. And along with that,

20:42

talk about sharing the gospel with

20:44

a gay friend or a family member.

20:46

What do Christians not understand about

20:48

that?

20:50

Yeah, very much. You know, in our

20:52

culture, you know, having lived

20:54

as an unbeliever, as

20:56

an agnostic for so

20:58

many years, for the majority of my

21:01

young adult years, and

21:03

I identified as gay, this

21:06

is who I was. If there is one thing

21:08

that I believe that

21:10

we don't fully understand when

21:12

it comes to sharing

21:15

Christ with those in the gay community,

21:17

with understanding our loved ones

21:20

who identify as gay or

21:22

lesbian or transgender.

21:25

It's how the world has

21:27

conflated sexuality with

21:30

personhood, how the world

21:32

has conflated even transgender

21:34

even once, perception of themselves,

21:37

the very subjective reality of

21:39

their gender with who

21:41

they are. Because

21:44

this is not just an issue of

21:47

quibbling over terminology.

21:49

You know that for myself,

21:51

Dr. Chapman, I do not identify

21:54

as gay. I am not

21:56

a gay Christian. I

21:59

am a Christian. My good

22:01

friend Rosemary Butterfield, she was an English professor,

22:03

so she loves words and she always says words matter.

22:06

Words have meaning, an

22:08

adjective. The purpose of that is to

22:10

modify the noun. In other words, limit

22:12

the scope of the noun.

22:15

I don't want there to be any limitation

22:17

to who I am in

22:19

Christ. See, sexuality.

22:22

When it comes to sexuality, it's about

22:24

our our attractions

22:27

or our actions, what we feel,

22:29

the desires we have. And these could be strong

22:31

desires and often un chosen

22:33

desires that we've had as long as you remember.

22:36

And yet no desire,

22:39

whether sexual, romantic, should ever

22:41

be who you are.

22:44

And we need to understand that, because

22:46

how can we discuss

22:48

with others who don't know Christ,

22:50

or they have a distorted view of the gospel?

22:52

How can we talk to them that this

22:54

is sinful behavior when

22:56

they don't even view it as behavior? If

22:59

we were going to go back, you know, 20

23:01

years or more ago before I knew Christ,

23:04

and you were to tell me that this was sin,

23:06

I would not hear you say that

23:09

what I'm doing is sin, or my attractions

23:12

are or my desires are sinful

23:15

or my relationships are sinful. I

23:17

would hear you say that my whole person,

23:19

from head to toe, is reprehensible

23:22

to you and to God. Before

23:24

I knew Christ, I could not hate

23:27

my sin without hating

23:29

myself. Now that I

23:31

know Christ, I can hate my sin

23:33

without hating myself. So I

23:35

think to share the gospel and to better understand

23:38

what's going on in the culture, we need

23:40

to start there. I think this is the

23:42

most important starting point, even

23:44

as we're looking at. I think this is kind of a litmus

23:47

test to see different approaches

23:49

today. Are we getting

23:51

identity right? This is not

23:53

just a label. Are we getting this terminology

23:55

right? Why would we ever

23:57

use a terminology, a word

24:00

that's rooted in our brokenness

24:02

and in the fall and in sin

24:05

to try to win people to

24:07

Christ? Because that's more of a bait

24:09

and switch. We just need to

24:11

use the power of the gospel

24:13

and how we all are

24:15

new creations in Christ to

24:18

win them to Jesus.

24:22

That's a message I think, that Christians

24:24

need to hear and think seriously about.

24:26

You know, we haven't talked yet about

24:29

the term holy

24:31

sexuality. Can

24:33

you unpack that for us?

24:35

Sure. I know that for many people,

24:38

that's a brand new term. What what

24:40

does that mean? Well, it came

24:42

out of sort of my frustration

24:44

as I was that I, that

24:46

I was actually pigeonholing

24:48

myself. And I feel that many Christians,

24:51

we pigeonhole ourselves into

24:53

the wrong framework. And

24:55

that framework is heterosexuality,

24:58

bisexuality, homosexuality,

25:00

which essentially divides

25:03

up humanity, categorizes

25:05

humanity according to our sexual desires.

25:08

That's not what God intended, that

25:10

we need to kind of put ourselves in different

25:12

groups according to what we feel

25:14

and the desires that we might have.

25:16

And whenever I

25:19

see a secular, it's a Freudian

25:21

framework. I always want to choose

25:24

a biblical framework. Over,

25:26

over. Or a secular one. And

25:28

what is that biblical framework? It's a framework that

25:30

doesn't divide ourselves according to our

25:32

sexual or romantic desires,

25:35

but one that is grounded in

25:37

holiness. So it's

25:39

not heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality.

25:42

I think we should set that whole framework aside.

25:45

And to be honest, even those terms heterosexuality

25:48

or heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual,

25:50

gay, straight by those actually

25:52

do not describe people.

25:55

They describe our feelings,

25:58

our actions, our experience.

26:00

A desire is not a person.

26:02

So it's not heterosexuality, homosexuality,

26:05

bisexuality, but holy

26:07

sexuality. And what is holy sexuality?

26:09

Well, reading through the full counsel of God, there's

26:11

actually only two paths that God lays out for

26:14

us. The first path is

26:16

if when you

26:18

are single, be sexually

26:20

abstinent, and then

26:22

the other path is if

26:25

you marry. And I'm just using the biblical

26:27

definition of marriage, not the one that the

26:29

state and the world has changed

26:31

the definition. But this is actually

26:33

affirmed by Jesus himself

26:36

in Matthew 19 and Mark chapter

26:38

ten, that marriage is between

26:40

a man and a woman, a

26:42

male and a female. So

26:45

if you marry, how are you going to live?

26:47

You're going to be faithful to your spouse

26:49

of the opposite sex. So, quite simply,

26:52

holy sexuality is chastity

26:54

in singleness or

26:56

faithfulness in marriage. And that

26:59

is good news for all.

27:02

Thanks for joining us today for building

27:04

relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman,

27:06

New York Times bestselling author of

27:08

The Five Love Languages. For

27:10

more ways to strengthen relationships, just

27:13

go to Building Relationships with us.

27:15

You'll find upcoming seminars with

27:17

Dr. Chapman and a link to our featured

27:19

resource, Dr. Christopher Yuan's video

27:22

series, The Holy Sexuality

27:24

Project. Go to Building relationships.us

27:27

or go directly to Holy

27:29

sexuality.com.

27:31

In the program that we're discussing, the Holy

27:34

Sexuality Project, which you've done

27:36

to help parents and grandparents. In

27:39

the first lesson you say, and I'm quoting

27:41

here, the ultimate goal

27:43

when it comes to sexuality is

27:45

to glorify God by denying

27:48

yourself, taking up your cross,

27:51

and following Jesus.

27:53

Can you elaborate on that?

27:55

Yeah, I'd love to. So in

27:58

this video series, I

28:00

was kind of pulling on some traditions

28:03

of the church for the past several

28:05

millennia. And that's catechism.

28:07

So when it comes to our children,

28:10

we categorize them in

28:12

God's truth. And I think that's kind of taken from Deuteronomy

28:15

six. But here's something

28:17

that's kind of sad. I think

28:19

sometimes we're we're we're not doing

28:21

it a diligent job in that.

28:23

But the world is categorizing

28:25

our children. And in this tradition

28:28

of catechisms, catechisms

28:30

for so long, for many centuries and

28:32

millennia has been essentially

28:35

a question and an answer question

28:37

and answer question. So we'd be teaching these.

28:39

We would teach these to our kids. What's

28:41

the question? What's the answer? So I kind

28:43

of pulled on that with this video series,

28:45

even though you know, the video,

28:47

the medium is very new.

28:49

But this this is old traditions,

28:52

question and answer. So all these 12

28:54

lessons all have a question

28:56

and answer. Some of them have a couple questions

28:58

and a couple answers. And so with lesson

29:01

one, which just started with my testimony,

29:04

I the question for that

29:06

lesson was what is the ultimate

29:08

goal when it comes to sexuality?

29:11

And that answer, I really wanted

29:13

to frame this entire

29:15

video series, all 12

29:17

lessons with that lesson. One

29:19

question and that lesson

29:21

one answer. To make

29:24

this Krista centric,

29:26

I wanted to lift up the supremacy

29:28

of Christ. As I was reviewing

29:31

many of the resources out there,

29:33

I thought a lot of them were helpful,

29:35

but it had this tendency

29:38

to focus a bit on human effort.

29:40

This is what you needed to do. This is what you needed

29:42

to not do. And it kind

29:44

of made made secondary

29:46

a relationship with Christ and

29:49

submitting joyfully to Christ.

29:51

Whether it was the don't do's in

29:53

the past and some of the newer ones that

29:55

that, you know, give this impression

29:58

of, well, we just need to be nicer.

30:00

We need to just love and

30:02

and if I could even say here,

30:04

should we love. Absolutely.

30:07

My my issue is not with loving.

30:09

My issue is with the just

30:12

I get this a lot, Dr. Chapman, where people

30:14

say my job is to just

30:16

love. Now should we love. Absolutely.

30:20

But should we just

30:22

love that then makes

30:24

love an end in itself?

30:27

We need to make love

30:30

a means to an end, and

30:32

that end must always

30:34

be Christ. Should we be more

30:36

loving, should be more gracious? Absolutely.

30:40

But we need to be careful that we

30:42

shouldn't think that we were.

30:44

We are where we are today. Ten years

30:46

ago, ten years ago, 20 years ago, I

30:48

think Christians, we were

30:51

kind of at the risk of being more

30:53

truth at the expense of grace. So we

30:55

need to be more gracious and compassionate.

30:58

That's not where we are today.

31:00

Today, what I'm

31:02

seeing among our youth, our

31:04

young adults and even some of the approaches

31:07

is that we are grace at

31:09

the expense of truth. We

31:12

need to be like Jesus. John 114.

31:15

Full of grace and full of

31:17

truth. That's what Christ was, full

31:19

of grace and full of truth.

31:21

So the goal of this

31:23

whole video series is to lift

31:25

up the supremacy of Christ, and

31:27

that we ultimately our goal

31:30

is to follow Jesus. And what does that mean

31:32

to deny yourself, take up

31:34

your cross and follow Jesus.

31:36

That foundation applies

31:39

to whether you are a single guy, a

31:41

single girl, whether you are married.

31:43

We all need to deny yourself,

31:45

take up a cross and follow

31:48

Jesus.

31:49

With that as a foundation.

31:52

What are some of the topics that you cover

31:54

in this series?

31:56

Yeah, we have 12

31:58

lessons, and in this video

32:00

series we start lesson

32:02

one with talking

32:04

about my testimony. Lesson two

32:07

because identity is so important,

32:09

I actually talk on what

32:12

how sexuality is a false

32:14

identity. And then lesson three

32:16

I talk about what is our true identity, that

32:18

it is the image of God. You know, we

32:20

identity is so, so

32:22

important. And I think this is the one thing that

32:25

I think sometimes we miss that

32:27

I actually spent two whole lessons talking

32:29

about identity. Then lesson four

32:31

I break down the concept of attraction,

32:34

desire and temptation.

32:36

A lot of there's a lot of discussions about same

32:38

sex attractions. Is it sinful or

32:40

not? And I think the problem is we

32:43

when we're talking about biblical things, we need

32:45

to use biblical words. And

32:47

attraction is not a word found in the Bible.

32:49

And so when we're trying to figure out, well, is this right

32:52

or wrong? Is it sinful or not? I

32:54

think it's always best to be as clear as possible

32:57

to use biblical terminology, desire

32:59

and temptation. And I help kids to

33:01

realize temptation is not sin. It

33:03

could quickly lead to sin. But desiring

33:06

something that is sinful is sinful

33:08

in itself. That's from Matthew

33:10

five, where Jesus says, if a man looks lustfully

33:13

at a woman, and that word lustfully

33:15

in Greek is the same word that we translate

33:17

as desire, that

33:20

that temptation, that if we look lustfully

33:22

at a woman that's already considered lust,

33:25

that's in five. I introduce this concept of holy

33:27

sexuality, which we just talked about. And

33:30

then lesson six, singleness

33:32

what it is, what it is not, and then

33:34

marriage. Lesson seven and then I talked

33:36

about this great question that I didn't have in my book.

33:38

What's the big deal? You probably heard

33:40

this before, Dr. Chapman. Kids are just thinking,

33:43

why is God so concerned about what

33:45

people do in the privacy of

33:47

our own home? So I have an entire lesson talking

33:49

about that. Lesson nine these

33:51

myths that that kids are

33:53

hearing on, you know, the

33:55

the authorities, the experts on TikTok.

33:59

And so we're dispelling some of these

34:01

myths on the Bible and homosexuality.

34:03

Less than ten talk about sex, gender and the image of

34:05

God. And then lesson 11 and 12 it gets

34:07

to really practical things. How do we

34:09

minister to someone struggling with

34:11

sexual temptations? How do you respond

34:14

to someone in unrepentant sexual sin?

34:16

And then less than 12 is following

34:18

Jesus. How do we follow Jesus

34:20

in the midst of trials

34:23

and temptations?

34:24

Well, you know, I think parents and grandparents

34:26

who are listening to us today and

34:28

hearing those topics and hearing that you

34:31

deal with these things, they recognize

34:33

the value of it, but they're also a little

34:35

uncomfortable when they

34:38

think about my teenager, you know,

34:40

and talking with them about sexuality.

34:42

So how do we get over

34:44

that, that hurdle of I

34:46

don't know if this is what I should be

34:48

doing.

34:50

Yes.

34:51

What do you say to those parents who are hesitant?

34:53

Yes. And that, I

34:55

think, is part of kind of our

34:58

own experience. You know, I

35:00

don't know about you, Dr. Chapman, but I grew up,

35:02

you know, in the 1970s, and this

35:05

was a time that

35:07

biblical sexuality was generally accepted

35:10

and unbiblical sexuality

35:12

was there was stigma around that, whether

35:14

it's divorce, sex before marriage,

35:17

adultery, today,

35:19

it's a different world. Our

35:21

children are being raised in a

35:23

time where biblical sexuality

35:25

is not only viewed as

35:27

well. That's old fashioned, it's even

35:29

viewed by some to be harmful,

35:32

to hold to that view. So

35:34

when we were raised, I

35:36

don't remember a time when my parents talk

35:39

about sexuality, about sex.

35:41

So there's a lot of uncomfortableness

35:45

and fear, and I

35:47

see that as a wall between

35:49

parents and their teens and preteens

35:52

and grandparents and their grandchildren.

35:54

But guess what? That wall is

35:56

not there with their peers.

35:59

That wall is not there in school.

36:01

They feel totally comfortable talking

36:03

to their teacher or their school counselor.

36:05

And and school counselors today are,

36:08

as we see, they are actually encouraging

36:10

them to get sex changes. ET cetera. Which,

36:12

of course, you can't change your sex, but going

36:15

it's really pushing

36:17

them in the wrong direction. They're okay to get

36:19

online and and chat or

36:21

text with these people and talk about sex.

36:24

So what we need to do is

36:26

to break down that wall. Well, how do we do

36:28

that? That's actually one of the main

36:30

purposes of this video series

36:33

that we don't want kids, just

36:35

we don't want parents in teens or grandparents

36:37

in their teens and pre-teen to just

36:39

simply watch videos. There's

36:41

actually a parent guide that goes

36:44

along with this video series

36:46

that will help these families

36:48

to have. Have these conversations at

36:51

home. So it starts out

36:53

where the parent or grandparent

36:56

in like any one of the lessons,

36:58

each lesson is the same format. They're

37:01

going to read a few sentences or a short paragraph.

37:03

They're going to ask a question that kind of

37:05

primes the pump and gets

37:08

a little bit of baseline of where everyone

37:10

is at. Then you watch this video.

37:12

Each lesson has three videos.

37:14

So the first video is a teaching video about

37:16

ten minutes. Watch that video. After

37:19

that, they go through 4 to 6 questions

37:21

of discussion and then

37:23

they watch the second video. Have

37:25

about that is about another ten minutes of video

37:28

teaching. And then they go through another

37:30

4 to 6 questions of discussion

37:32

after they finish that second video. And

37:35

the last video is a wrap up to kind of

37:37

go over that question and answer and

37:39

really solidify what is being taught.

37:41

And then you end up with, after

37:43

watching that third video, just with some closing

37:46

questions, that in all, is about

37:48

45 to 60 minutes of

37:50

watching the video and discussions. And

37:52

let me tell you this great story that we

37:54

heard a pastor, he

37:57

was a New Testament scholar, had a PhD

37:59

in New Testament in like four different masters,

38:02

and he had a 16

38:04

year old daughter that's a junior in high school

38:06

and a 14 year old freshman

38:08

son about to start

38:11

high school. Well, he had heard

38:13

that this video series was coming out, and so he got

38:15

it right away end of June. And he thought

38:17

and he wrote to us and he said he wanted

38:19

to go through this entire video series

38:21

before school started.

38:24

So he did one lesson every single

38:26

day for two weeks, and

38:28

he emailed us and he told this story.

38:30

He said, after lesson

38:32

one, his 14 year

38:34

old son told him, he said,

38:36

dad, this is so weird.

38:38

This is so awkward. I'm talking

38:40

to my parents about sex. I

38:42

get it, I would say the same if I was a

38:45

parent or grandparent, I would say the same

38:47

thing. I feel so weird, I don't this is

38:49

awkward. I'm nervous. I'm scared.

38:51

But this is what's so cool. Dr. chairman,

38:54

lesson 12. At the end,

38:56

the dad asked the son.

38:58

He said, so do you still feel awkward or weird?

39:00

The son said, no dad,

39:03

not at all. He

39:05

see, when we are able to have these

39:07

conversations and this video

39:09

series is to facilitate that, to

39:11

kind of just break the ice,

39:13

our hope is to tear

39:15

down that wall, that separating

39:18

parents and their teens from

39:20

having these really redemptive,

39:22

gospel centered, Christ exalting

39:25

conversations that will really

39:27

help our kids that are drowning

39:29

in a tsunami of misinformation.

39:32

Yeah, yeah.

39:34

Well, I see this video

39:36

project as a means

39:38

for parents to do what they really

39:40

in their heart and know they ought to do.

39:42

They need to do, but they don't know

39:44

how. And this is a tool, I

39:46

think, that parents and grandparents are going to

39:48

find really, really helpful.

39:51

This is building relationships with

39:53

Dr. Gary Chapman, author of the

39:55

New York Times bestseller The Five Love

39:58

Languages. Our featured resource

40:00

today is the Holy Sexuality Project

40:02

by Dr. Christopher Ewen. It's

40:05

a 12 lesson, 36 video

40:07

series for parents, grandparents, and

40:09

their teens and pre-teens. Find

40:11

a link at Building relationships US

40:14

or go to Holy Sexuality.

40:18

In lesson nine, you tackle myths

40:20

related to homosexuality in the

40:22

Bible. Can you share some of those myths?

40:26

You know, I needed to add some stuff

40:28

to this video series that

40:31

I didn't include in the book, and

40:33

some of those was not only what's

40:36

the big deal, but I wanted to include

40:38

some of these myths that we're hearing

40:41

more and more. Our kids are

40:43

so, you know, bound and influenced by

40:45

their peers, by social media,

40:47

by TikTok. And we're

40:49

getting all these myths

40:52

about about

40:54

homosexuality and what the Bible says

40:57

and doesn't say. And so I

40:59

cover four of these myths David

41:01

and Jonathan, Jesus silence. I

41:03

also cover where people say

41:05

that it's just about pedophilia,

41:08

that when it says, A man shall not

41:10

lie with a male, it's about just a boy.

41:13

But also this myth about

41:15

the word homosexual wasn't in

41:17

the Bible, and it was somehow falsely

41:20

introduced in 1946. So, for example,

41:22

I mean, over all of these, I

41:24

wanted to help our kids to understand how

41:27

to interpret the Bible, not just on these issues

41:29

of homosexuality, but help them to

41:31

see that that context

41:33

is extremely important. And

41:35

yet there's different types of context. There's literary

41:37

context, historical context,

41:39

and canonical context. I think oftentimes

41:42

we're familiar with the literary and the historical

41:44

context. But I think a lot of

41:46

our our listeners right now,

41:48

a lot of parents and teenagers

41:51

aren't familiar that canonical context

41:53

is key. For example,

41:56

David and Jonathan, we have

41:59

this myth that they

42:01

were lovers. I don't know if your

42:03

listeners have ever heard of this crazy

42:05

story, but they say, oh, they they really they

42:07

weren't just friends, they

42:09

were lovers. And and

42:12

yet when we look at

42:14

the context will

42:16

realize that, well, you know, that's

42:19

that it shows a lot of instances,

42:21

for example, that the Bible

42:24

was very, very honest about

42:27

David's sins, whether,

42:29

you know, obviously with Bathsheba,

42:31

adultery and about

42:34

all the other wives

42:37

and concubines that he had, and very

42:39

frank about his private life, but never shared

42:41

that, never talked about David

42:43

and Jonathan lying together or knowing

42:46

each other. Also, the

42:48

historical context that helps us to

42:50

see. There's a passage that says that

42:52

that Jonathan took off his robe and

42:54

gave it to David. Now, as

42:56

you can probably guess, in our hypersexualized world,

42:58

those people that are trying to twist scripture

43:01

try to make that sexual, well, there's nothing

43:03

sexual about Jonathan giving

43:05

his robe to David. What

43:07

was actually going on here in that context

43:10

is Jonathan recognizing that even

43:12

though he's next to the throne, he's

43:15

heir to Saul, the

43:17

king of Israel? Jonathan

43:19

was recognizing that David

43:21

is the anointed One and David

43:24

is the rightful king of Israel.

43:26

So by him taking off his robe,

43:28

Jonathan's robe was not any just normal

43:31

robe. It represented

43:34

his royalty and his power that

43:36

he was next to the throne.

43:38

And by Jonathan giving off his robe,

43:41

it was representing that he was submitting

43:43

himself under David,

43:46

who is to be king.

43:48

Furthermore, when it says that that

43:50

their love was more wonderful than that of women,

43:53

that they express love for one another.

43:55

When we equate

43:58

love with sex or sex

44:00

with love, we are really revealing

44:03

how much the sexual revolution

44:05

has impacted our understanding.

44:07

Love does not equal

44:09

sex, that there is

44:12

so much more outside

44:14

of our understanding of simply that that

44:16

love is only to be found in

44:18

romance. Marriage

44:20

does not have a monopoly on

44:22

love. As a matter of fact, it

44:25

was very common that people

44:27

in power will express their

44:29

love for one another. As

44:31

a matter of fact, in First Kings

44:33

chapter five, the King of

44:35

Hyrum said it was talked about

44:38

him that he always loved

44:40

David. So people in power,

44:42

they often would express their love

44:44

for one another. That doesn't mean

44:46

it was sexual, doesn't mean that

44:48

was romantic. So things like that.

44:50

I think we're very important for me to include in the video

44:53

series to help our kids to see that

44:55

they're myths when it comes to homosexuality,

44:58

and that if we just use proper

45:00

interpretation using literary

45:02

context, historical context, and canonical

45:05

context, that will guide us

45:07

in God's truth.

45:09

Yeah, yeah, we

45:11

know that gender confusion is rampant

45:13

today, and I'm assuming

45:15

you talk about that also in. This series?

45:18

Absolutely. As we

45:20

are struggling to

45:23

address this issue of homosexuality,

45:25

I feel like homosexuality

45:27

is just the Trojan horse that now

45:29

brought into our culture transgenderism.

45:33

So the biggest issue, I

45:35

believe right now, one of the biggest

45:37

issues that our youth are dealing

45:39

with is this concept

45:41

of gender. And now

45:44

sex and gender. We used

45:46

to use those synonymously. Unfortunately,

45:48

the world has redefined things just

45:51

as the world has redefined the marriage.

45:54

The world has redefined the

45:56

concept of gender and has split

45:58

apart that sex and gender

46:01

now mean two different things. Now, of course,

46:03

we don't agree with that, but we need to recognize

46:05

that even when we're talking, we need

46:08

to be careful about the words that we use because

46:10

they we might be using the word same

46:12

terminology, but we're using a different

46:14

dictionary. They have redefined

46:16

things where now gender is

46:18

not the same thing as sex, where sex

46:20

is an objective binary

46:23

classification of male

46:25

and female. We are

46:28

sexed beings. I actually prefer

46:30

to say instead of saying that we're sexual

46:32

beings, we're sexed. Why

46:35

sexual has now been co-opted

46:37

to just refer to like,

46:40

oh, I need to have sex. Sexual

46:42

gives the impression that is just referring

46:44

to the act of sex. Sex

46:46

can refer to the act of sex sexual

46:48

intercourse, but it could also refer

46:51

to being male or female. Different

46:53

definitions. So we are

46:55

sexed beings. We are male

46:57

and female. And

47:00

that helps us understand that

47:02

this is something that God created

47:04

us, male and female. Genesis

47:07

one verse 27. It says,

47:09

God created them male and female.

47:11

This is part of God's creation

47:14

that is inherent to who we

47:16

are. Just as we are creating God's

47:18

image were created male and female,

47:20

but gender now has become this new

47:23

modern definition that's referring

47:25

to how we

47:27

feel that it's now this subjective

47:30

reality of our self perception.

47:32

And our self perception should not

47:34

be who you are. Adult.

47:36

Yes, it's a reality. The fall where

47:38

people do struggle, maybe

47:41

with their self perception, not

47:43

align with their sex. And we have to

47:45

be really, really clear that that's just

47:48

the reality of the fall. We should have compassion

47:50

for them. We should minister to them but encourage

47:52

them. Do not make this

47:54

who you are. The

47:57

world is giving something quite different.

47:59

The world is telling you if you

48:01

feel something, it's who you are.

48:03

If you think something, that's your

48:06

truth. But God is saying something quite

48:08

different. The heart is

48:10

deceitful above all else.

48:13

Who can know it? So I need to

48:15

submit my thoughts, my feelings,

48:17

my my desires

48:20

to Christ Himself and so

48:22

very much. I definitely address

48:24

this issue of gender confusion

48:26

in this video series, to help parents

48:29

and teens to have a Christ

48:31

focus on who we are in Christ.

48:34

Christopher, as we come to the end of

48:36

our time together, let me ask you one other

48:38

question. Talk to the parent

48:40

whose son or daughter just came

48:42

out, went home and told

48:44

the parents, you know, how

48:47

do you engage with that teenager

48:49

or that young adult when a parent

48:51

hears that information?

48:53

Well, I've walked with countless

48:56

parents. I have this huge

48:58

blessing of being able to minister

49:01

with my mom and dad

49:03

and now just with my mom. But

49:05

our ministry is so unique in that

49:08

we get many, many

49:10

parents who come to us. They

49:12

seek answers, and essentially

49:15

what we do is not point them to us.

49:17

I don't have the answer. I really can

49:19

encourage them, but Jesus does.

49:22

You know, if you're listening right now and maybe

49:25

you're that parent. You have that daughter,

49:27

that son who has

49:29

now told you that they are. They're

49:32

identifying as transgendered, or

49:34

they are identifying as gay or lesbian or bisexual

49:36

or whatever, the whole gamut

49:38

of spectrum, non-binary,

49:41

pansexual. It

49:44

is so difficult and there's

49:46

such a grieving and pain

49:48

going on right now. But

49:51

I want you to remember because

49:53

many times parents who get this news,

49:55

they begin blaming themselves, you

49:57

know, what did I do wrong?

49:59

You know, if only I would have done this,

50:01

or if only I would have done that. And

50:04

some of that is kind of built on how we

50:06

have diagnosed this incorrectly, that

50:08

we think that that somehow

50:10

it's rooted in things that happened in

50:12

our childhood, whether it's an absentee father

50:15

and a mother or trauma. Now, those things

50:17

definitely influence us. But influence

50:20

is not the cause. So

50:22

we need to see that actually, that

50:24

really the ultimate root cause

50:27

is sin nature. And

50:29

if that's you as a parent, please

50:32

hear me. It's not your

50:34

fault. Our kids

50:36

biggest issue isn't that

50:38

they are in a same sex relationship, or they're

50:40

identifying with the wrong sex, male

50:43

or female. That's a secondary

50:45

issue. The biggest problem

50:47

comes back to what I mentioned in lesson one

50:49

of this video series. The

50:52

biggest issue for our children

50:54

is that they would know and

50:56

follow Jesus, deny

50:58

yourself, take up your cross,

51:00

and follow Jesus. And

51:02

so that gets to what is our

51:04

goal to engage with them? Do we

51:07

always accommodate in every situation?

51:10

Well, that's grace at the expense of truth. We need to

51:12

be full of grace, full of truth.

51:14

We need to be like Jesus.

51:16

We love our kids, but

51:18

we love them to Christ.

51:21

And that sometimes might involve

51:24

having those discussions with our

51:26

kids that is grounded

51:28

in truth. Because love

51:31

rejoices in truth. We sometimes

51:33

have falsely dichotomies love

51:35

with truth we can't. There is no love

51:37

apart from truth. Now, we're not going

51:39

to continually kind of hit them over the

51:41

head or continually focus on

51:43

that. But we need to be

51:46

not just grace at the expense of truth.

51:48

Of course not truth at the expense of grace,

51:50

but to be full of grace and full

51:53

of truth. Because here's what's so important,

51:55

even with my own testimony,

51:57

that, you know, many of you

51:59

might not have heard a testimony like

52:01

mine before, a man who

52:03

used to identify as gay and now no

52:05

longer do. And that really is an important

52:07

aspect. But that's not how I

52:09

best summarize my testimony.

52:12

This is my testimony.

52:15

I once was blind

52:17

and now I see I

52:19

once was lost and now

52:21

I'm found. I once

52:24

did not believe, and now

52:26

I believe in the Son of God,

52:28

and his name is Jesus.

52:31

That's my testimony.

52:33

Yeah.

52:35

Well, that's a good place to bring our conversation

52:37

to an end today. Christopher,

52:40

your book and now this video project,

52:42

I think God wants to use this

52:44

in our culture today. And I

52:46

want to thank you for investing time

52:49

and energy in putting all of this together.

52:51

And I hope our listeners will reach out

52:53

and utilize this, because

52:55

I think we all recognize as parents

52:58

the need for help in this area with

53:00

our children. And this

53:02

has helped that I think

53:04

many will find really,

53:06

really useful. So thanks again for

53:08

being with us today and thanks for putting this

53:10

material together.

53:11

Thanks so much, Dr. Chapman, for having me on.

53:14

What a great hour with Dr. Christopher Yuan.

53:16

And if you want to find out more about the Holy

53:19

Sexuality Project, the video

53:21

series, go to Holy sexuality.com.

53:24

Or you can find a link at our website.

53:27

Building relationships.us

53:30

and next week, what are the five

53:32

traits of a healthy family?

53:34

Dr. Chapman will help you grow closer,

53:36

communicate better, and change the world.

53:38

Don't miss it. Before we go,

53:40

a big thank you to our production team,

53:42

Steve Wick and Janice. Backing building

53:45

relationships with Dr. Gary Chapman

53:47

is the production of Moody Radio in

53:49

association with Moody Publishers,

53:52

a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.

53:54

Thanks for listening.