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Summer Cold. Very cold. This

1:28

is buried bones. Hey

1:51

Paul! I carried, are you? I'm

1:53

doing well. You look rugged is up the

1:56

right word. Doc.of

1:58

rugged as the right word. You

2:00

would be so here before what's going on as there's some

2:02

sort of did you lose a bet or did you went

2:04

to bed? I don't I. Know

2:07

you know that it's actually leaves this

2:09

time of of year. I really didn't

2:11

have to do and he appearances or

2:13

fill many saying and as like you

2:15

know what I'm just going to change

2:18

my look just just for the hell

2:20

with it. And the last time I

2:22

was able to do this was during

2:24

the pandemic. Now were obviously wasn't doing

2:26

anything and so yes I just decided

2:28

to let it all go and then

2:31

it got no unruly so I I

2:33

saved it up a bit but that's

2:35

probably. A very temporary luck is my

2:37

guess is it's not good. It's see it

2:39

gets. it's you down in the neck and

2:42

so you know when you see you know

2:44

so you see. So these guys are really

2:46

grow those huge beards and is all the

2:48

way down onto their neck. I don't know

2:51

how they can stand that but once they

2:53

hair gets long it become soft yet also

2:55

it it it does. It's not really itchy,

2:58

I just don't know how those guys can

3:00

can really stand having that that neck beard

3:02

aspects and then like for me or my

3:04

beard is not. Super thick through like the

3:07

cheeks and the jaw line of them as

3:09

well as why generally the go to his

3:11

is more suitable for meeks i grow thicker

3:13

and that in the chin mustache area them

3:15

that on the sides of the face. I

3:17

didn't know that there would be variation in where

3:19

a man grows hair on his face. By guess

3:22

that makes sense that you don't want a Patsy

3:24

beer plus a release a goatee And that's why

3:26

you go for the sangha that Iran at nine.

3:28

Cents here Yet I I I got grow and

3:30

I can grow and and shop off What I

3:32

can't. That in California vs Colorado

3:35

do you feel like you're lox changed

3:37

at all means you have to conform

3:39

to the rugged mountain man look vs.

3:41

Intel for you might be a little

3:43

different. Now I'm serious If he'd say

3:46

have you become more rugged wasn't even

3:48

in Colorado. well you know but most

3:50

are leave being retired and living in colorado

3:52

of i've i've taken advantage of the the

3:54

outdoor life much more than i could you

3:56

know but a lot of that's just how

3:59

to do was I was in California,

4:01

I was working full-time. So

4:04

I didn't have the opportunity to potentially

4:06

do some of the activities that I

4:08

can do now. But

4:10

also for 24 years of my

4:12

career, I wasn't allowed to

4:15

grow facial hair, with the exception of a

4:17

mustache, and I wasn't going to just have

4:19

a mustache. So it wasn't until

4:21

I got to the DA's office where I was allowed

4:23

to at least do some facial hair. I

4:26

was in work environments before, I'm not going to name which

4:28

ones. No

4:30

piercings, no tattoos, cover it all up. I did

4:32

not realize you would have to do that working

4:34

for a DA's office. Really? No,

4:37

for the sheriff's office, I couldn't grow a pier. For the

4:39

sheriff's office, wow. Okay. And when

4:41

I did go to the DA's office, I did do

4:43

the goatee look for a period of time. But you

4:45

know, it's all gray. It makes me look old. So

4:50

again, this is going to be a temporary look. It'll

4:52

go away. Okay, well, this will

4:54

be an interesting story for us

4:56

to transition into a very conservative

4:58

environment. We have not really

5:01

done a lot of hospital-centered stories

5:03

before in history. You

5:05

know, usually I feel like we're in a

5:07

Potter's field. We're

5:09

in the countryside, or we're in a gritty city

5:12

in the 1800s. But

5:16

this is actually a little bit more recent. And

5:19

we're talking about the 60s, which is woohoo, you

5:21

know, very recent. And we

5:24

are also talking about New Jersey and kind

5:26

of an environment where there's a lot happening,

5:29

a lot of – so there's a lot of science-y stuff

5:32

in here that I hope you can drag

5:34

me through, because though I went to a

5:36

science-centric high school, I am relatively

5:38

clueless about a lot of science. I have to do

5:41

a lot of looking up and stuff. But that's why

5:43

you're here. That's why I rely on you. Oh,

5:45

boy. I have a feeling

5:47

this is going to be a Stump the Dummy-type

5:49

episode. No, I don't think so. Well,

5:52

maybe. We'll see. Okay,

5:54

let's set the scene. So

5:57

all of the action happens at a place called

5:59

Riverdale, Huffle – which is in

6:01

Auradale, New Jersey. I've been to Jersey

6:03

but not this particular place. Have you?

6:05

No, not really. You know, I've flown into

6:08

the airport there. What's that, Newark? But

6:10

have never explored New Jersey at all.

6:13

Well, this is New Jersey in the

6:15

1960s. It doesn't mean much except I

6:17

think this is going to be a

6:19

story of what they

6:21

did then. Is there anything we could have

6:23

changed today coming to different conclusions? To me,

6:26

it's a little bit also of a mystery,

6:28

so hopefully you can help me out with

6:30

this. But like I said, science-y,

6:32

medically, we'll see how it goes. And

6:35

I'm gonna try to pronounce everything correctly

6:37

but just feel free to correct me

6:39

if I botched something here. Okay, I'll

6:41

do my best. Okay, this

6:43

is a string of deaths

6:45

that happened at one hospital.

6:48

And the big mystery right now is going

6:50

to be, of course, who's the one

6:53

doing it? Because at an active hospital, even

6:55

though this is private, there are still a

6:57

lot of people with access to a lot

6:59

of medical items, a lot

7:01

of medicine drugs. So it's not as

7:04

easy as you would think to figure

7:06

out what's happening with this. So

7:08

again, medical stuff, let me know what

7:10

you think here. Our first person is

7:13

a 73-year-old man named Carl Robek, and

7:15

this happens in December of 1965. So

7:18

Carl comes to Riverdale Hospital.

7:21

He is going for an operation to repair

7:23

a hernia. And

7:25

just for context, Riverdale is

7:27

described as a small private

7:29

osteopathic facility in Bergen County,

7:31

New Jersey. So he is supposed

7:33

to have an operation to repair his

7:35

hernia. So the chief of surgery takes

7:37

a good look at this guy and

7:40

says that he doesn't think Carl's going

7:42

to be a good candidate for an operation

7:44

because he has a heart condition. So

7:47

this is in the 60s. I have no

7:49

idea where we stand with whether or not

7:51

you should have surgery or not. But this

7:53

chief of surgery has a great reputation, and

7:55

he looks at him and says, I don't

7:57

know, I'm concerned about this guy's heart condition.

8:00

So instead of performing the surgery,

8:02

the chief of surgery says, you know,

8:04

I think we should take another look

8:07

at his health and put him on

8:09

an intravenous drip. So

8:11

we don't really know why and we don't

8:13

know if the chief of surgery was in

8:15

charge of this. This is what he thinks

8:17

though should happen. So no surgery for Carl.

8:20

And I wonder, is that a valid risk,

8:22

the heart condition? Would that be a risk

8:24

today? Do you think that would be taken

8:26

into consideration or are there things that can

8:28

mitigate having heart problems during a

8:30

surgery? My understanding, you know,

8:33

of course there's been dramatic improvements

8:35

in administration of anesthesia and monitoring

8:37

the patient during surgery. And

8:40

probably today they're much better

8:43

at minimizing the

8:45

risk to somebody

8:47

like Carl's condition with this heart.

8:50

Back in the 60s, probably was more

8:52

risky. So they're going, oh, if we

8:54

put them under and

8:57

whether it's the anesthesia or the stress

8:59

on the body from the surgery

9:01

itself, that may increase

9:04

the likelihood that he could have a

9:06

fatal cardiovascular event. Well

9:08

Carl and his family say, okay, they put

9:10

him on a drip. All the

9:12

doctors confirmed that this is a fine way of

9:14

going about it, including the chief of surgery. Nurse

9:17

puts him on a drip. The New York

9:19

Times says, five minutes, Carl dies

9:22

from having this needle inserted. Five

9:25

minutes? That seems very fast.

9:27

And again, we're trying to figure out what's

9:29

intentional and what's not. But five minutes

9:32

is alarming to at least a reporter

9:34

with the New York Times who was looking into

9:36

this. So he's got

9:38

this IV line that's being put

9:40

into him. And I imagine, you

9:42

know, initially what the IV drip

9:44

has is just saline solution, right?

9:46

It's just all they're doing is

9:48

they're trying to, you know, hydrate

9:50

him. And it's a

9:52

mechanism to be able to administer

9:55

drugs. And so within five minutes,

9:57

there must have been something that

9:59

was all right. within that source

10:02

for the IV line that

10:05

killed Carl. And what is it? You

10:07

know, it wasn't something that affected his

10:09

heart. Was it something like

10:11

an opioid? You know, a fatal overdose

10:13

of an opioid? Was it intentional? Is

10:15

this accidental? Or was this

10:17

just Carl just decided to code out

10:19

and it just was coincidental with the

10:22

IV being put into him? That's

10:24

what the medical examiner thinks. He

10:26

opens up Carl after he's died and

10:28

he looks and he says, man, this

10:31

guy has a bad heart, damaged heart.

10:33

He had a heart attack. That's clear.

10:35

So this is the

10:37

explanation. It becomes weird, but again,

10:39

the whole point of the

10:41

story is trying to kind of suss out

10:43

what is intentional, what's not intentional, if anything's

10:46

intentional at all. We just know that Carl

10:48

came in with a bad heart, needed a

10:50

surgery, they put him on IV, and

10:53

then he dies pretty quickly afterwards.

10:55

So the medical examiner, I don't

10:57

know if he thinks it's a coincidence, maybe he

10:59

thinks that it's just sort of the trauma around

11:01

him that's happening, but he says he had a

11:03

heart attack is what he believes. So I guess

11:05

we're just gonna wait and see, right? Yeah,

11:07

you know, and my question is, well,

11:09

what kind of heart attack did he

11:11

have? Did he have a blockage? You

11:13

know, did he have this massive blockage

11:16

and that is what killed him? Or

11:18

did he have an electrical issue? Did

11:21

he go into AFib? You

11:24

know, where now the heart

11:26

is not, its electrical aspects

11:28

aren't functioning right and it's

11:30

not effective at pumping the

11:32

blood. And you

11:34

can have these ventricular

11:36

fibrillations where now the heart is just

11:39

kind of sitting there almost in

11:41

spasms and there's no blood flowing and that

11:43

can be fatal as well. If it's a

11:45

blockage, then I would say that sounds like

11:47

it was coincidental. He was just, it was

11:49

his time to go, had nothing to do

11:51

with the insertion of the IV or the

11:53

saline or whatever is in the

11:56

saline solution. But

11:58

if it was this electrical disruption. Well,

12:00

that could be caused by a drug

12:03

that was put into Carl. I don't have

12:06

a note from the medical examiner about that.

12:08

He just says, you know, one plus one

12:10

is to damaged heart. This is what it

12:12

looks like. Yeah. So, things move

12:14

on. That happened, if you remember, in December of 1965.

12:16

So, now we are

12:19

three months later, four months later, March of 1966,

12:22

and we are at the opposite end of

12:24

the spectrum with age. So, Carl was 73

12:26

and in bad health. Now we have

12:29

a four-year-old girl

12:32

named Nancy Savino, and

12:35

she is having surgery for

12:37

suspected appendicitis at Riverdale.

12:39

Now, I do not know. I mean,

12:42

would a kid really have appendicitis? That

12:44

seems young, but I don't know anything

12:46

about that. Well, you know, appendicitis,

12:48

I mean, it's an inflammation of the appendix,

12:50

and this is a common thing that

12:53

does happen where now you can get

12:55

an infection, and if it

12:57

bursts, it becomes a very serious, if

12:59

the appendix itself bursts, and now you

13:01

have this bacteria that gets out into

13:04

the body cavity, the abdominal cavity, that

13:06

is a very, very serious condition. That's

13:08

why when somebody comes in and has

13:11

this appendicitis, oftentimes they act

13:13

quickly because they don't want it

13:15

to get to a point to where

13:17

now the bacteria is able to get to other

13:19

parts of the body. Well, she

13:21

winds up with a young surgeon

13:23

whose name is Dr. Stanley Harris,

13:26

and he's important later on. So,

13:28

Stanley looks at Nancy Savino and

13:30

says, yep, time to have an

13:32

operation. He puts her

13:35

under, takes her in. Dr. Harris

13:37

removes several intestinal cysts from Nancy's

13:39

body the night she's admitted. Oh,

13:41

God. Is that appendicitis? Is that

13:43

what that is? The cyst

13:45

sounds like that was secondary. Did she

13:47

actually have appendicitis? Or when he goes

13:49

in and he's dealing with taking the

13:51

appendix out or looking at it, he's

13:53

also finding cysts and deciding that I

13:55

need to remove those. That's my

13:57

understanding, right. He's there, and he's like, I'm going to do it.

14:00

take these out while I'm here. Take notes Paul,

14:02

there's a lot of medical

14:04

stuff. Well

14:06

and generally, you know, my understanding

14:08

is that cysts are typically very

14:10

benign. They're the only time that

14:13

they really are of major health

14:15

concern is if they're pressing

14:17

against something they shouldn't be

14:19

pressing against as they grow

14:21

or if they are

14:24

causing the patient pain. I'm

14:26

not sure if there's anything

14:28

from something that they designate

14:30

as a cyst that would require

14:32

like, oh this is an immediate

14:35

health concern. Okay, so these are probably

14:37

not painful. They're not causing her pain, certainly

14:39

not pain separate from the appendicitis. I

14:41

think it all depends on where the cysts are. The cyst

14:43

sound, at least right now,

14:46

is secondary to the appendicitis. Well,

14:48

Dr. Harris says the operation went off

14:50

really well. Everything was fine. The four-year-old

14:53

stays in the hospital right after the

14:55

surgery and she's recovering. But

14:57

with in 24 hours, she

15:00

takes a real hard left turn

15:02

and her condition really worsens and

15:04

she passes away 24 hours

15:07

after this operation. So the medical

15:09

examiner is back at it. He

15:12

does an autopsy and this is

15:14

according to the Daily News newspaper,

15:17

an autopsy revealed no

15:19

medical explanation. So her

15:21

death was ascribed to

15:23

an, quote, undetermined physiological

15:25

reaction. What is that?

15:28

It means they just don't know. You know,

15:30

that's that fundamentally what it is is

15:33

that she was alive yesterday. She had

15:35

the surgery. She died.

15:37

They are not seeing any physical

15:40

aspects when they do the autopsy that

15:42

they can attribute her death to, you

15:44

know, and this is where, well, what

15:47

does the tox say? What kind

15:49

of drugs are in her system? You

15:51

know, what's the medical history leading up

15:53

to the the surgery and then post-operative

15:55

in terms of what is she being

15:57

exposed to? So I'm imagining, you Know,

16:00

This medical examiner is taking all

16:02

of this medical history into account,

16:04

but still is not able to

16:07

determine a cause of death. Yeah,

16:09

And are it doesn't sound like

16:11

ran any toxicology stuff? I I

16:13

don't Now that's the impression. I

16:15

get a quick question. So this

16:17

is again described. River Dell is

16:19

described as a small private osteopathic

16:21

facility. They say that, right? Osteopathic.

16:23

You said that right arm you

16:26

know austere was is a bone,

16:28

but let me just let me

16:30

just look that term up or

16:32

he added that. The second thought

16:35

I had regarding the term osteopathic

16:37

is correct. This is more of

16:39

this holistic whole body type of

16:41

medicine, so it's kind of different

16:44

than going in and eat. Okay,

16:46

you're seeing a a Specialized Surgeons

16:48

is it appears that they really

16:50

address things on a whole body

16:53

holistic scale. And I'm really

16:55

not familiar with how that type

16:57

of medicine differs from traditional medicine.

17:00

A. Crime While I'm showing you the

17:02

hospital, not a huge hospital, obviously looks

17:04

like one level to me, but they

17:07

did say small. Private of that

17:09

A small. So our yeah. So

17:11

you're showing me a photo of

17:13

the front of this Riverdale Hospital

17:16

and it is means that that's

17:18

like the size of may be

17:20

Sri convenience stores stuck together. Amazon

17:22

That is Tiny. I mean it

17:25

must just have just a handful

17:27

of rooms and surgery areas. I

17:29

would be concerned about going into

17:32

a facility that looks like this

17:34

and having some sort of major

17:36

surgery being done. Well,

17:38

and in the sixties I just wonder

17:40

how many of these small private facilities

17:42

were around. This is not, you know,

17:44

a major city or anything where it

17:46

is. So on the flip side of

17:48

this, this is a small facility. but

17:50

they're doing surgeries. It sounds like daily

17:52

probably so they have to be accustomed

17:54

to death. It doesn't seem like they

17:57

are alarmed at all by the seventy

17:59

three year old. Laurel and by

18:01

four year old Nancy dying

18:03

Because that just happens. And. Surgery

18:05

Sometimes I'm assuming right there's gotta

18:07

be stats on how many people they've

18:10

lost the or and and in the

18:12

truck that me and I know.

18:14

the hospitals track that very carefully and

18:16

and when they start having you

18:18

know spikes and das than they say

18:21

really have to key and as to

18:23

will what is going on. you

18:25

know, because do we have in is

18:27

where there's that very critical interplay between

18:30

the medical aspects and the corners

18:32

or the medical examiner's even though you

18:34

possibly have no patients. That are

18:36

dying under a doctor's care. With

18:38

in a hospital you need to

18:40

have this independent entity, the corner

18:42

medical examiner to really double check

18:44

and see what what exactly is

18:46

the true cause of death here.

18:48

And so there is a checks

18:50

and balance if you will If

18:53

it's done, Appropriately. But of

18:55

course, things that happen within hospitals

18:57

a can be covered up yet.

18:59

Oh, and so that's part of

19:01

that. Checks and balances were. Now

19:04

the death investigators are going in

19:06

and collecting the body. now. Hospitals

19:08

often have their own pathologists and

19:10

oftentimes these pathologists will conduct. autopsies,

19:13

On the patients who have died within

19:15

that hospital setting. Well. We

19:17

have another death coming up pretty

19:19

quickly. So we had Carl in

19:22

December of a heart condition than

19:24

a March. We had Nancy cause

19:26

of death unknown the next month

19:28

after Nancy, which is April Nineteen,

19:30

sixty Six right in the middle.

19:32

Between the two of them, twenty

19:34

six year old woman named Margaret

19:37

Henderson visits the hospital after she's

19:39

experiencing severe abdominal pains. Doctor Harris

19:41

once again operates on her with

19:43

another surge. In this time a

19:45

different Riverdale surgeon. name robert

19:47

livingston the chief of surgery says

19:50

this is a bad idea i

19:52

don't think you also do this

19:54

but he says i want or

19:56

x rays before you do surgery

19:58

they insist these two doctors, Margaret

20:01

has a surgery and it seems

20:03

like it went well. It's

20:06

said that Margaret's recovery

20:08

was, quote, uneventful. She stays

20:10

in the hospital through the

20:12

night and then 6.30 the

20:14

next morning. She is described

20:16

by hospital staffers, Margaret, the

20:19

patient, as tense and apprehensive.

20:21

She said that she talked to a

20:24

nurse and she was complaining that she

20:26

was having trouble swallowing and she had

20:28

pain in her legs and her chest.

20:30

This was not where she had surgery. She

20:33

had abdominal surgery. What is happening? Do we

20:35

have any idea at this point? Let's just

20:37

say we don't know anything. She

20:39

doesn't have a drip or anything unusual

20:41

so far. Yeah. You know, I really

20:44

don't know in terms of, you know,

20:47

this kind of this anxiety, the pain

20:49

in the legs, etc. I'm not sure

20:51

what's going on with Margaret. Yeah.

20:53

I mean, obviously tense and apprehensive must

20:55

just mean something's happening to her body

20:57

and she doesn't understand it. There's an

20:59

IV drip, but it's a mixture of

21:02

glucose and water is what the nurse

21:04

says. You know, the two

21:06

guys who did surgery on her, of

21:08

course, are concerned, but, you

21:10

know, I wonder if the chief of staff

21:12

at this point is kind of saying, I

21:15

told you not to do this. Look what's

21:17

happening. You know, I wanted more information. I

21:19

wanted more x-rays. So if he's talking about

21:21

x-rays, this chief of staff, x-rays

21:24

on her abdomen, what would

21:26

show up on an x-ray that

21:28

would make him not want to

21:30

do surgery on an abdomen? I'm

21:33

unsure because, of course, you know, the x-rays,

21:36

it's very difficult to see much of

21:38

the soft tissue, you know,

21:40

that's why x-rays work great when you're

21:42

starting to talk about the bone, but

21:45

soft tissue, you can see aspects. And

21:47

potentially if you have maybe a very

21:49

dense mass that it would show

21:51

up on an x-ray. So I

21:54

could see where If they're concerned

21:56

that this abdominal pain that Margaret

21:58

is having is maybe maybe a

22:01

cancer or some other type of

22:03

a grows inside of her that

22:05

possibly the x ray would be

22:07

able to show it's it's location

22:10

better. It is odd that you

22:12

have these doctors can am. Debating.

22:15

What is the right course

22:17

with Margaret? And going

22:19

against the chief of surgery I guess

22:22

they talked him into it and he

22:24

allowed it to happen. But now the

22:26

most doctors who perform surgery on her

22:29

courser are concerned and they should be

22:31

because that morning she died. Twenty.

22:33

Six year old in who came in for surgery

22:35

died. They. Do an autopsy. The

22:38

medical examiner said she died. From here

22:40

we go. Big word for me: A cute.

22:42

Said Patrick Necrosis.

22:45

Ochre, And I don't have any.

22:47

The definition The in C B I

22:49

defines it as a sieve sudden severe

22:52

liver had tactic cell death that is

22:54

typical of toxic injury to the liver.

22:56

Toxic injury? What does that? Is that

22:58

poisoner? Could that be alcohol or some.

23:01

Kind of recreational drug. Wealth.

23:03

That the fact that the pathologist are

23:05

saying it's a cute is indicating that

23:07

this wasn't a chronic conditions, as wasn't

23:09

something like she had been abusing alcohol

23:12

over a long period of time. Of

23:14

course, I can have an impact on

23:16

the liver. The term hepatic as is

23:18

referencing the liver. The term necrosis is

23:20

the death of the tissue, the death,

23:22

the cell deaths. The fact that it's

23:25

a cute indicates that her liver was

23:27

exposed to something. That caused

23:29

this liver cells death to happen

23:31

very quickly. To deliver a such

23:33

a critical organ to the body

23:36

at is sort of like these

23:38

clearing house of all the toxins

23:40

in your body. Alcohol gets ya

23:42

metabolized in the liver it'll various

23:44

toxic substances get heart of rendered

23:47

harmless biography of being metabolized in

23:49

the liver and it really keeps

23:51

our body in this homeostasis. Oh

23:53

everything's see are you all that

23:55

the chemistry was in our body

23:58

is is. is in the right balance.

24:00

And when the liver becomes bad,

24:03

things get out of whack. And

24:05

if it's acute like

24:07

this, to cause death this quickly,

24:09

I don't think the necrosis of

24:12

the liver is what's

24:14

killing Margaret so fast. It's a

24:16

symptom. Whatever toxin is in her

24:19

body is killing the

24:21

liver cells, but that toxin is

24:23

also going systemic, and that's what's

24:25

causing Margaret to die. Well,

24:28

the medical examiner is concerned because he

24:30

does talk to the surgeons, and they

24:32

say that she did not

24:34

have any signs of jaundice before

24:36

she died. That's the yellowing. Both

24:38

my kids had jaundice, which he

24:40

said would have been expected

24:42

in this type of liver failure. She

24:44

did not. This was unexpected for

24:47

the medical examiner. Yeah. No jaundice.

24:49

Again, this is just showing that

24:51

this wasn't a chronic liver condition.

24:54

It almost sounds like overnight

24:56

Margaret ends up having her

24:58

liver exposed to something that

25:00

is so toxic to the

25:02

liver cells that you have

25:04

this necrosis. But

25:07

she didn't stay alive long enough

25:09

for this damage to

25:12

her liver to manifest in

25:14

other typical symptoms that you

25:16

see with damaged livers over the course

25:18

of days or weeks, or if it's

25:20

more chronic than that, such as jaundice.

25:23

So that's where I kind of go back

25:25

to, okay, something really damaged her liver, but

25:28

the fact that her liver was so damaged,

25:30

that's not what's killing her. It's whatever damage

25:32

to liver is what's killing her. So

25:38

that happened in April with this 26-year-old. Now

25:40

we're moving up in age again. To August

25:42

of 1966, there's a

25:44

59-year-old named Frank Biggs. He

25:47

comes in for surgery on his ulcer at

25:49

Riverdale. I didn't know that you had surgery

25:51

on ulcers. That's just me being naive. I

25:54

thought there were other ways to treat it,

25:56

but maybe not in the 60s. My

25:58

guess is, you know, when you have like I've I've

26:00

had ulcers, you know, like in my

26:03

stomach, which just by taking the some

26:05

over-the-counter medicines I was

26:07

able to clear up. But

26:10

you can have an ulcer that goes so

26:12

deep into the tissue where you can actually

26:14

perforate. The ulcer can actually perforate, whether it

26:16

be the stomach lining or the esophagus lining,

26:18

and there that tissue

26:21

is not going to heal. So I think

26:23

that's probably why Frank is

26:25

having surgery is that this is a severe ulcer

26:27

and there was fear that if it was left

26:29

unchecked it was going

26:32

to, you know, really become

26:34

a major, major problem. Well, this

26:36

is a no-brainer. Of course, the chief of surgery says

26:38

this guy needs an operation. So

26:40

Frank goes and has an operation

26:42

and everything is fine. He recovers

26:44

well. But about

26:47

an hour after the operation,

26:49

the 59-year-old appears weak. He

26:51

has difficulty breathing and they

26:54

said he was bluish in color. What

26:57

does that sound like to you? Well,

26:59

if he's blue, then I would say

27:02

that he is struggling

27:05

to have oxygen delivered, you know,

27:07

throughout his body. It's like an

27:10

anoxia of some sort. So the

27:12

chief of surgery says give him a

27:14

stimulant and he is given a stimulant

27:16

and his heart is, I've never heard

27:18

of this before, his heart is massaged

27:21

externally. Have you heard that before? How do you

27:23

do that? The only thing I can think of

27:25

is it's almost as if it's like a CPR,

27:28

you know, where you have some external

27:31

chest compressions. I've of course,

27:33

you know, seen the shows, you

27:35

know, like ER where, you know, during

27:37

an emergency situation where now

27:39

the surgeon is having to go in internally

27:43

and is massaging the heart. But I'm not sure

27:45

what an external massage of the heart would be.

27:47

I think this is CPR.

27:49

So he is given a stimulant. I'm

27:51

assuming to kickstart his heart. He is

27:53

given CPR, but he

27:55

dies 20 minutes later and

27:58

the medical examiner looks at him and

28:01

says that he died from an

28:03

excessively rapid heartbeat caused by a

28:05

large amount of urine in the

28:08

bladder. I told you there's a

28:10

lot of medical stuff. You look

28:12

confused. Rapid heartbeat

28:14

by having too much urine

28:16

in the bladder? Yeah. I

28:19

mean, that almost sounds like there

28:22

are individuals who have

28:24

died because of this vagus nerve

28:26

that gets overstimulated or hit or

28:28

something. I'm wondering if

28:31

that's what the pathologist, if there's some nervous

28:34

system aspect to where

28:36

now Frank, his

28:38

bladder is so full that it's

28:40

having a nervous system impact

28:43

on the regulation of the heartbeat. That's what

28:45

it sounds like to me, but I've

28:47

never heard of such a thing. It's

28:50

unclear if they used an IV in

28:53

this situation too, if we're thinking about

28:55

toxicology, but we just know Frank is

28:57

dead. Now we have a 73-year-old, a

28:59

4-year-old, a 26-year-old, and this 59-year-old. I

29:06

know age doesn't matter, but it runs the gamut.

29:09

Here is one of the issues that

29:11

starts worrying some of the doctors, including

29:14

Dr. Harris, Stanley Harris.

29:16

He starts counting, and in

29:19

total between 1965 and 1966, 13 patients die at this very small

29:26

hospital, smaller than a Super Walmart, either

29:29

right before or after what

29:31

are widely considered safe, routine

29:34

surgical procedures. This is an

29:36

anomaly, and Dr. Harris

29:38

lost five patients, and

29:40

this was alarming to him. It turns

29:43

out in this story, it sounds like Dr.

29:45

Harris is a good guy

29:47

because he thinks something is going

29:49

bad, but he doesn't know what's

29:51

happening. He teams up with another

29:53

colleague named Dr. Alan Lance, and

29:56

they start looking at all the records of these

29:58

people, and they start looking at who they

30:00

have in common and they noticed that most

30:02

of the patients passed away after

30:05

being observed or treated by

30:07

one specific surgeon, Riverdale's

30:10

chief of surgery and his name

30:12

was Dr. Mario Huskalovich.

30:14

So all of these people have this guy in common

30:17

and now you've got two surgeons who work under him

30:19

saying he's killing people and

30:21

we don't know why. Yeah so another

30:23

one of these doctor deaths. And this

30:25

is why I wanted to bring this case to you

30:28

because I know there's a lot of stuff that I

30:30

think you probably feel like is out of your wheelhouse

30:32

but the psychology behind this story is what's the most

30:34

interesting thing. If he did it,

30:37

if it can be proven that

30:39

he was responsible and that these

30:41

were not accidents or coincidences, what

30:43

is the mindset behind a doctor

30:45

death? I don't get it. Well

30:47

this this is a

30:49

type of serial killer. This is

30:52

a predator who has access to

30:54

a victim pool and you know

30:57

the types of cases that of

30:59

course that I have worked during

31:01

my career and continue to work

31:03

are you know these predators that

31:06

kill using violence. But the mindset

31:08

is that they are

31:10

killing for their own internal needs,

31:13

their own self-gratification, their own fantasy.

31:16

There is a pathology there right?

31:19

Now we have seen numerous

31:21

examples of medical individuals whether

31:23

they be doctors or nurses

31:25

or other types of hospital

31:28

staff who have access to

31:30

these patients and

31:33

they're killing these patients. They're

31:35

not utilizing violence, they're utilizing

31:38

other resources that they have

31:40

access to such as drugs

31:43

or sometimes you see asphyxia being

31:46

employed. But the motivation is

31:48

for their own internal reasons

31:52

and oftentimes with this type

31:54

of offender, the mindset of

31:57

their playing God, they pick

32:00

and choose who dies and when

32:02

that person dies. And that gives

32:05

them this power that feeds

32:07

sort of a power complex is the

32:09

way that I would kind of put

32:11

it. And there are offenders, these

32:14

serial killers that kill utilizing

32:17

violence, such as strangulation, and

32:19

notably somebody like a Sam

32:22

Little or even the happy

32:25

face killer Jesperson who describes this

32:27

God complex. I pick and choose

32:29

when this person dies and they

32:32

will strangle these victims to the

32:34

point of unconsciousness and then release

32:36

and let the victim come back

32:38

alive and then strangle them again.

32:41

That's that playing God. And I

32:43

would say that this pathology within

32:45

this hospital setting of I'm going

32:47

to guess that these victims

32:50

within the hospital were killed

32:52

using some sort of toxin

32:54

or drug. But the person

32:56

that's administering that is playing

32:58

God, is doing the same

33:00

thing, just utilizing a different

33:02

methodology. Well, let's talk about

33:04

Dr. Mario since right now he's the prime

33:06

suspect of what we aren't sure of

33:08

is actually a series of murders. We

33:11

don't know yet. So when

33:13

these are happening, which is 65 and 66, Mario

33:16

is in his late 30s. He's from Argentina.

33:18

In 1955, he comes to the United States.

33:23

He gets an internship at a hospital in New Jersey.

33:25

In 1962, three years before

33:27

this happens, he's

33:30

hired by Riverdale Hospital. He

33:32

sounds like a rock star of the

33:34

surgeon. He is hardworking. He has a

33:36

great reputation. He's easy to get along

33:39

with. He quickly becomes chief of surgery

33:41

at this small private hospital during

33:43

this time period when he's there. He

33:45

even invents a stapler that's used

33:47

during surgical operations in this time period.

33:50

So this seems like a stellar person,

33:52

which is petrifying if he's really a

33:54

serial killer, like you're saying. Yeah, you know,

33:56

but this is where you know you can

33:59

have these. predators that are very,

34:01

very successful by all measures that

34:03

we in our society use to

34:06

say this person is good at

34:08

what they do. They

34:11

can be very capable, very skilled,

34:13

but then there's something under

34:15

the current

34:17

that's underneath what we can see that

34:20

is driving them to commit these crimes.

34:23

Dr. Harris and his other cohort

34:25

in this, Dr. Lance, decide they

34:27

want to do their own little

34:29

investigation into Dr. Mario, even though

34:31

he is their boss and supervisor.

34:34

So they look inside Dr. Mario's

34:36

locker, which sounds like inexplicably is

34:38

not locked, and Dr. Harris finds

34:40

18 vials of brand

34:42

name versions of a drug called

34:45

Curare. Some of

34:47

these vials are sealed and unused.

34:49

Some are opened and partially used,

34:51

and they also have syringes loaded

34:53

with the Curare sitting

34:56

right there alongside the vials in

34:58

Dr. Mario's locker. So first of

35:00

all, explain why we should be

35:03

concerned about Curare. Yeah, this is what

35:05

we call a clue. Oh,

35:08

is that why I should be concerned? Okay,

35:11

thank you. No, you

35:13

know, here you have this

35:15

doctor who's squirreled away, in

35:18

essence, this poison. Curare

35:21

is something that is, it

35:23

was a paralytic agent, and I'm having to look

35:26

online. I had heard of it, but now I'm

35:28

having to just kind of read what

35:30

it does. But this was a compound

35:33

used by indigenous tribal

35:36

people for their poison darts.

35:39

And what it does is

35:41

it disrupts the ability of

35:44

the nerves to communicate with

35:46

skeletal muscle. And so in essence,

35:48

it's paralytic. And

35:50

So if you get to

35:52

that into your system, now

35:54

you struggle to move. but

35:56

more importantly, something like breathing

35:58

gets compromised. Your brain can

36:01

cause your diaphragm to can crack

36:03

the yellow in order to be

36:05

able to to to breathe. I

36:07

swerve with the last one we

36:09

talked about. Freight who was described

36:11

went in for an ulcer but

36:13

then after surgery he's he's looking

36:15

blue. well he's not able to

36:18

breathe properly and so that makes

36:20

sense. So I imagine that you

36:22

know these these two doctors looking

36:24

in a locker and seems as

36:26

very poisonous agent being squirreled away

36:28

there going okay that's not normal.

36:30

Them My hope is is this is

36:33

where now phone calls are being made

36:35

to both law enforcement and the corners.

36:37

Well let me tell you something about

36:39

Korea that you my not now in

36:41

the forties. This. Was actually

36:43

used during. Surgery very

36:45

commonly used. As a paralytic

36:48

and muscle relaxant, I mean, they were

36:50

very aware that if you did know

36:52

everything possible about dosing, that it would

36:54

be exactly which he said it would

36:56

be catastrophic for the patient. It has

36:58

been seized out over the past decade

37:00

or two. But. It was

37:02

not particularly shocking to see this. This would

37:04

not have been something they would have used,

37:06

but it was in hospitals and it could

37:09

have been some smaller places. with some bro

37:11

old school doctors might have still. Used it's

37:13

it was at one. Point. Used

37:15

during surgery where I did and in

37:17

that was my understanding is that that

37:19

was part of the and a seizure

37:22

process back in the day and the

37:24

mates they since replaced arise. But still,

37:26

it's like today, if somebody were to

37:28

go into flood, save an anesthesiologist locker

37:30

and open it up and see a

37:33

whole bunch of files or sandal will

37:35

set was commonly used by anesthesiologists today.

37:37

so why would they habit squirreled away

37:39

and and kiddo in of a location

37:42

that they shouldn't have it? It should

37:44

be more. Tightly controlled. Yeah,

37:46

Well, Doctor Mario is a little

37:49

shocked when he's confronted about what's

37:51

in his locker and he says

37:53

everybody's overreacting. I am not using

37:55

this on patience. I'm using it

37:58

on dogs because he's running Xp,

38:00

the romance related to canine liver

38:02

biopsies off site as his own

38:05

projects and later on they test

38:07

stuff that's in the locker and

38:09

it's determined that his locker is

38:12

indeed contaminated with dog hair in

38:14

dog blood. So. Of

38:16

course we don't. Know the timeline. we don't know

38:18

systems this off, how old the dog

38:20

what is and how we actually used

38:22

it. but you know there are people

38:24

who are very skeptical Doctor Mario and

38:26

think that he put the dog hair

38:28

in the blood in the locker after

38:30

he was confronted with the hospital administrators

38:32

to support his cover story. So when

38:34

he found out that people were looking

38:36

in his locker he went back before

38:39

being confronted and put the stuff in

38:41

as you missed it. Look gear, bits

38:43

of dog hair and here in bits

38:45

of blood and I'm doing these experiments.

38:47

When you think about that. Quote:

38:49

This is just typical were you

38:51

know when you are dealing with

38:53

a suspect gentle they're gonna lie

38:56

at least my understanding of how

38:58

this is progressing as now you

39:00

have hospital staff, ward not trained

39:03

investigators year old, they're conducting an

39:05

investigation and of they are now

39:07

allowing the in essence the crime

39:09

scene and the physical evidence to

39:12

be. Altered. After.

39:14

They have discovered this incriminating evidence

39:16

in his locker. That's where I'm

39:18

like, get law enforcement out there

39:20

talked corners, You know? Let's now

39:23

we've We've got a situations and

39:25

you're not allowing Doctor Mario to

39:27

access back to the crime scene

39:29

to the physical evidence. But of

39:31

course he's going allies and he's

39:33

a doctor. He can come up

39:36

with an excuse as to why

39:38

he has this poison, but you

39:40

interview him, you walk his statements,

39:42

and you conduct a proper. investigation

39:44

corners needs to be conducting

39:47

more thorough death investigations possibly

39:49

even exhuming some of these

39:51

patients and seeing his arab

39:54

in the nineteen sixties a

39:56

methodology to detect this karate

39:59

with his the body.

40:01

None of these patients probably should have

40:04

had karate being administered to them in

40:06

a formal capacity, in a medical capacity.

40:08

So if there's karate in the patients,

40:10

Dr. Mario has karate in his locker,

40:12

Dr. Mario had access to the patients,

40:15

now you are stacking up

40:17

the various aspects,

40:19

the evidence and circumstances to

40:22

show that yes, Dr. Mario is

40:24

killing patients using this karate. Well

40:27

this is such an interesting story because

40:30

the hospital administrators and the medical examiner

40:32

did none of that. Of course. The

40:34

investigation went nowhere. Two

40:37

weeks they looked into it, they couldn't

40:39

sort out if he did anything on purpose and

40:41

that was it. He left

40:44

Riverdale in 1966, we

40:47

don't know if he was fired or

40:49

if he resigned, but he left. He

40:51

continued to perform surgery at other facilities

40:53

in New Jersey for 10 years Paul,

40:55

this guy. For 10 years. It is

40:57

not often

41:00

in our stories that I get

41:03

to you know trumpet the incredible

41:05

work of journalists, but thank

41:08

goodness 10 years later in 1976 there's a journalist

41:10

with the

41:13

New York Times named Byron Farber. He

41:15

is looking into these deaths and

41:18

he does not name the

41:20

doctor who is the suspect here, Dr.

41:22

Mario. He calls him Dr. X, which

41:24

is a great book title by the

41:26

way, Dr. X. Like Dr. Evil,

41:28

Dr. X. Yes. And there is

41:30

a huge wave of publicity in the

41:33

case because he does a series. In

41:35

New Jersey the DA says okay let's

41:37

start looking into this. They eventually convene

41:39

a grand jury and they recommend murder

41:42

charges and they start

41:44

to have the bodies exhumed and tested

41:46

for the Carrara, the stuff that they

41:48

found in the locker. And you

41:51

know according to source material there are a lot of

41:53

different methods that they used. I had no idea what's

41:55

available in 1976, but listen to this. assay,

42:01

thin layer chromatography,

42:03

high pressure liquid chromatography,

42:06

ultraviolet absorption spectroscopy, and mass

42:08

spectrometry. Are these current tests

42:10

that you know of? Have

42:13

you heard of these tests

42:15

before? Oh, yes. Okay. I've

42:18

done all of them except really radio-amuno

42:20

assays. I mean, I've done immunoassays, but

42:23

thin layer chromatography. I

42:26

haven't done, personally done, HPLC, you

42:28

know, the high pressure liquid chromatography,

42:31

but mass spectrometry, that is

42:33

a, this is a fairly

42:35

advanced testing regimen.

42:38

You're saying this is in the 1970s? This is 1976,

42:40

yeah. Okay. So,

42:42

you know, this, for things like

42:45

the mass spectrometry or the

42:47

HPLC, you know, this is probably

42:49

the earlier implementations of that type

42:51

of instrumentation, but it is far

42:56

more sensitive than something like

42:58

the thin layer chromatography that

43:00

goes back eons in terms of,

43:03

you know, thin layer chromatography is

43:05

sort of like, if you've done

43:08

the really fundamental chemistry experiment to

43:10

where you have a pen

43:12

ink in a test tube and you drop a

43:14

piece of paper in there and the pen

43:17

ink kind of wicks up the paper and

43:19

it separates out into the various colors that

43:21

are within that pen ink, that's

43:23

a form of chromatography. Thin

43:25

layer chromatography is just an advanced version of

43:28

that. And then when

43:30

you get into high pressure liquid chromatography or

43:33

even this mass spectrometry,

43:35

which typically is, it's

43:37

a detector that occurs

43:39

after gas chromatography, this

43:41

is even, you know,

43:43

several evolutions past the

43:45

thin layer chromatography in terms of

43:48

now you're using a very sensitive

43:50

instrumentation in order to separate out

43:52

the components. And so if you

43:54

have a biological tissue that you

43:57

extract out, you know, the various

43:59

chemicals issue, you can separate

44:01

those chemicals out based on their

44:03

physical and chemical characteristics using a

44:06

chromatography method and then

44:08

use various detectors to see what

44:11

these chemicals are or what

44:13

their physical properties are. This

44:16

is actually a fairly for the 1970s. I'm

44:20

kind of impressed that they are using this

44:22

technology. So

44:28

what ends up happening is they were

44:30

charging Dr. Mario with more

44:32

deaths but of the bodies that they

44:35

exhumed, there were only three that they

44:37

were able to find the

44:39

presence of Karare in and it

44:42

was Nancy the four-year-old, Carl the 73-year-old and Frank

44:44

the 59-year-old. So

44:48

he's now charged with three murders and

44:50

in February of 1978, this is over a decade after

44:55

the deaths of these three people, his

44:57

trial begins, Dr. Mario's trial begins all

44:59

because of this journalist picking up the

45:01

case more than a decade later. So

45:03

let's talk about motive because I know

45:05

this is going to be your favorite

45:07

thing. This is what prosecutors think. They

45:09

think he was motivated to murder these

45:11

people, to undermine the credibility of his

45:13

colleagues to make everybody else look bad

45:15

and make him look good. What do

45:17

you think about that? That's their theory

45:19

because they know juries want a theory.

45:23

I think this is where I would

45:25

need to know more about his relationship

45:28

with his colleagues. Is

45:30

that truly a motive? Sometimes I've

45:32

seen prosecutors, they want to have

45:34

something that they could present to

45:36

a jury that makes sense. But

45:39

some of these, what I

45:42

talked about earlier in terms of the inner

45:44

gratification that Dr. Mario I believe

45:46

is likely getting from doing, committing

45:48

these types of crimes is

45:51

such a nebulous concept that

45:53

prosecutors generally will not try to present

45:56

that aspect. Maybe

45:58

somebody is talking about it. about, he's talked

46:01

about the jealousy that he's feeling

46:04

about maybe Dr. Harris. Dr. Harris

46:08

is getting some sort of award that Dr.

46:10

Mario was aced out of. There's

46:13

that aspect, almost a vindictive

46:16

motive, but I'm not convinced

46:18

that that's what's going on here. If he's

46:22

switching hospitals and is continuing to

46:25

do this type of crime, it

46:27

sounds like it's something that it's

46:29

not geared towards select individuals

46:32

that he's trying to undermine.

46:34

He is doing it because

46:36

he wants to do it.

46:38

Well, I don't think they are

46:40

alleging that he did anything after

46:43

leaving Riverdale. So I wonder if

46:45

that goes back to the idea

46:47

of he really didn't like these

46:50

specific colleagues who were underneath him. I

46:53

don't know, but I think you're right. I think

46:55

that that seems like kind of a tall tale of

46:57

a motive to do all of this if we really

46:59

think 13. What do you think? I

47:01

just don't buy it. And I kind

47:04

of go, they charged him with the three,

47:07

Carl, Nancy, and Frank because

47:09

they found the karate in

47:11

their tissues after exhumation. They

47:14

don't charge him with Margaret. And

47:16

the interesting thing with Margaret is

47:18

she's the one that is showing

47:20

the one thing the medical examiner

47:22

at the time noted that acute

47:24

hepatic necrosis. That sounds like

47:27

if Dr. Mario was responsible for her

47:29

death, he used a different

47:32

toxin. And they just

47:34

didn't find what that toxin was. Well,

47:36

this will be interesting. The defense is,

47:39

of course, countering all of this with a

47:41

lot of different things. So they

47:43

say he didn't have a problem

47:45

with colleagues. Colleagues had a problem

47:47

with him. They were desperate to

47:49

cover up their own medical incompetence.

47:52

There is a newspaperman who is

47:54

determined to get a lot of

47:56

fame and fortune over digging up

47:59

murder cases. that weren't really murder

48:01

cases, and the prosecutors are trying to

48:03

hop on board. It's a big conspiracy. Everybody

48:05

wants to see Dr. Mario go down because

48:08

he's a successful doctor. And by the

48:10

way, we don't think anything has happened

48:12

since he left Riverdale. This was bad

48:14

doctors who worked underneath him. It was

48:16

not Dr. Mario. So let's

48:19

talk about the evidence because they

48:21

really try to break down the

48:23

evidence. So they spend a lot

48:25

of time trying to discredit the

48:28

prosecution's karate overdose claims and

48:30

the testing. So they are

48:32

directly contradicting the prosecution witnesses, number

48:34

one, who say that at least

48:36

one of the victims was blue.

48:39

There are other witnesses at the

48:41

hospital who testify not blue. They

48:43

looked pale or white. And

48:46

I know with blue, we were talking

48:48

about breathing issues, heart issues, and

48:51

the defense is saying, we have

48:53

witnesses who never saw blue on

48:55

anybody. So we are not talking

48:57

about a paralytic here. Yeah,

48:59

but the testing of Frank who was

49:01

seen as blue, blue, I mean, that's

49:03

subjective, right? That's a

49:05

color and it's based on perception. It

49:07

can be something, this blue hue that

49:10

is seen in an anoxia depends

49:12

on the lighting conditions. Even

49:14

though there's that interesting observation at

49:17

the time that Frank died, the

49:19

most significant evidence at trial is he

49:21

had karate in his system. So

49:24

whether he was blue or pale, to

49:27

me is trivial relative, hold on,

49:29

the scientific testing, the toxin came back and

49:31

he had a poison in his system. Well,

49:34

the defense says you're wrong. Of course they

49:36

do. Using the testimony

49:38

of 21 expert witnesses, the defense

49:40

goes on the attack. They

49:43

established that 10 whole years have passed

49:45

since the patient's death and that things

49:47

like the passage of time, the chemical

49:49

processes in the body, or even the

49:51

embalming that affect the

49:53

integrity of karate testing. There

49:56

is a renowned toxicologist named

49:58

Dr. Frederick Reeders. who

50:00

affirms per his own testing that Karari

50:03

was present in Nancy Savino's remains. But

50:06

instead of suggesting it implies lethal

50:08

poisoning, he says he's surprised that

50:10

the substance showed up at all.

50:13

According to his understanding of Karari

50:15

and how it interacts with embalming

50:17

and decomposing fluids, this

50:19

toxicologist didn't think it would be present

50:22

after 10 years whatsoever. Yet

50:24

somehow, Karari he found via his

50:26

own testing was surprisingly pure. He

50:29

said that he only found

50:31

Karari in Nancy's liver, but if

50:33

it's injected with an IV, he

50:36

thinks it would have been all over the place. It

50:38

wouldn't have been just in the liver. So

50:41

he is saying, this toxicologist is saying this

50:43

doesn't make sense. If we were accusing this

50:45

guy of putting Karari in an IV, that's

50:47

not, if it's in there, that's not the

50:49

way it ended up in there. He's contradicting

50:51

everything the prosecutor is saying. So now

50:54

you have an expert who's, okay,

50:57

admitting, yes, Karari was detected in

50:59

the liver. But he

51:02

would expect that it would be detected

51:04

elsewhere. Right. And that it's possibly going

51:06

to be compromised as a result of

51:08

the embalming and the environmental aspects of

51:10

the body being buried. But what studies

51:12

is he referring to in terms of,

51:14

okay, how many situations

51:16

has he run across in which buried

51:18

bodies after 10 years have been studied

51:21

to see how Karari persists

51:23

within the various tissues? You

51:25

know, he's probably speculating to

51:28

a point, you know, fundamentally Karari

51:30

was detected in the liver. Everything

51:33

else that he's talking about, and

51:35

it's not to necessarily say he's

51:37

not an expert, but

51:39

it's can he reliably

51:42

point to objective data

51:45

to support those

51:47

statements? And this is where you get into the

51:49

battle of the experts on

51:51

science, because prosecution could probably march

51:53

another toxicologist in to say, no,

51:56

this is exactly what I would

51:58

expect. It would only persist. the

52:00

liver because it's going to be concentrated in

52:02

the liver, you know, after it has

52:04

been put into

52:06

the body. I wonder if

52:08

Frederick Reeder's thinks that

52:11

maybe he was given a tainted

52:13

sample. Because if you think about

52:15

what he's saying, he's saying it

52:17

shouldn't be here, it's pure and

52:19

it's only in the liver. Yeah.

52:22

So it sounds to me like he's

52:24

thinking his sample's contaminated probably on purpose.

52:26

Does that make sense to you? Well,

52:29

the way he's phrasing that, that

52:31

sounds like the allegation. The prosecution

52:33

ended up,

52:35

whether it be at the investigative stage or

52:39

once charges were filed, that

52:41

they dosed the

52:44

liver sample so the testing would show

52:46

that it's corrariated. And that, of course,

52:48

would be a complete...that's a criminal act

52:50

that would be setting up Dr. Mario. And

52:53

my hope is that that's not what

52:55

happened. But we know that that type

52:58

of thing over history has happened. So

53:01

I need to know more. Is

53:03

there...why just that sample? Why

53:06

not dose the other samples? Make sure

53:08

that if you really

53:10

want to convict Dr. Mario,

53:13

well, let's get him on

53:15

all three bodies across all

53:17

the various tissue samples that have been

53:19

collected because they had access to all

53:21

of it. Well, and it doesn't

53:24

sound like he was given the other two

53:26

samples for the other two bodies because he

53:28

is just talking about Nancy and that's it.

53:31

So unfortunately, we are coming to the

53:33

end of our information. It

53:35

is battle of the witnesses and experts as

53:38

we talked about. The jury, I'm sure, isn't

53:40

sure what to do here. But

53:43

ten years later, there are

53:45

witnesses who are gone. There are

53:48

tissue samples and tape recordings that could have

53:50

shed light on some of this. So like

53:52

interviews with Dr. Mario that have been

53:54

lost or destroyed by the time this

53:56

guy was indicted. This is reconstructing a

53:59

case from... 12 years ago and

54:01

the jury deliberates and it takes

54:03

them less than three hours to

54:06

find him not guilty. Okay.

54:09

I mean, wow, what a case because,

54:11

you know, there wasn't enough information. It

54:13

came late. I don't know if in

54:16

66 when

54:18

Dr. Harris sounded the alarm on this

54:20

case to begin with, if they had

54:22

any of these tests that you're talking

54:24

about, but then the karate would have

54:26

showed up positively, I'm assuming, if they

54:28

had tested them on the spot in

54:30

66, but the hospital administration,

54:32

it sounds like, just totally dropped the ball

54:34

on this. They stopped the investigation. They didn't

54:37

turn it over to the police and they

54:39

passed them off to another hospital. It's what it sounds

54:41

like. Yeah. In

54:43

essence, you have multiple homicides

54:45

that they just overlooked. Yeah.

54:48

And if they had conducted, if they had called

54:50

law enforcement, worked with the coroner's

54:52

office back in 66, we

54:55

probably would have seen a

54:57

much more thorough investigation. The

54:59

evidence would be much more

55:01

conclusive and possibly Dr. Mario

55:04

would have been removed from being in

55:06

a position where he potentially could have

55:08

killed others down the road. Well,

55:11

he is acquitted. He walks out.

55:13

He eventually loses his medical license

55:15

because of unrelated malpractice infractions. We

55:17

don't know anything about those. It

55:19

doesn't sound like if he killed

55:21

somebody, the authorities never found out

55:23

about it. He leaves the United

55:25

States and goes back to Argentina,

55:27

probably a good idea. And

55:30

he eventually dies at the age of 57 in 1984.

55:34

But this hospital, Riverdale, who you have

55:36

a couple of doctors who are putting

55:38

things together and certainly saved people's lives

55:40

by sounding the alarm, and then

55:43

they are completely undermined by the

55:45

hospital administration, Riverdale just never recovers.

55:47

Usually it's shuttered a couple of years

55:49

after the trial. Their reputation is in tatters.

55:52

So what is the lesson learned,

55:54

Paul, from this? Is it the

55:57

hospital administration needed to be held

55:59

accountable for... making such an awful

56:01

decision. Well, imagine you have a

56:03

loved one who goes into the

56:05

hospital for a relatively routine procedure

56:07

and dies the next day, and

56:09

then you find out that one

56:12

of the doctors who your loved one was

56:14

under the care of had

56:16

previously been investigated for 4, 5,

56:18

13 similar homicides and

56:24

it was overlooked. The lesson

56:26

from my perspective is somewhat, I'm

56:28

somewhat echoing what I've already said

56:30

before is that

56:32

when you are dealing with

56:34

people's lives in a

56:37

medical setting, you need to

56:39

be familiar with when something

56:41

appears to be looking like

56:43

there's a criminal aspect. At

56:45

that point, you need to

56:47

pull law enforcement in because

56:49

law enforcement is the expert

56:52

in conducting that kind of investigation. They

56:54

may need to work side by side

56:56

with the medical experts, but that often

56:58

comes from the medical examiners. They're

57:01

the ones that understand this is

57:04

what happens during these types of

57:06

surgeries. These are the types of

57:08

agents that are administered during the

57:10

surgeries. These are the risks. These

57:13

are why patients die from these

57:15

surgeries. When they see patients manifesting

57:17

symptoms that do not correlate with

57:19

what the pathologist is knowing should

57:22

be the reason why the person

57:24

dies, there's something that needs

57:26

to be investigated right then and there.

57:29

That I think is really the message. Once

57:32

it looks like there's a criminal aspect,

57:34

get the criminal investigators in. Well,

57:38

lesson learned here. What a story. We

57:40

don't visit hospitals very often, but this

57:43

was a compelling one. I'll

57:45

think about probably the motive for this for

57:47

a long time. Our motives are usually a

57:49

lot more clear cut, but this one was

57:52

not. Thank you for letting me bring this

57:54

case to you, Paul. This is another sort

57:56

of not even a who done it. It's

57:58

a diddy do it sort of thing. But

58:00

it shows us how far we've come, you

58:03

know, with medical tools and forensic tools. And

58:05

so it's another good reminder of, boy, to

58:07

be lucky about where we are right now

58:09

in forensics and how it just keeps growing.

58:11

Thank goodness. Very interesting and

58:14

different type of case than what we normally talk

58:16

about. So thank you for bringing it to my

58:18

attention. I'm sure next week we'll have a traditional

58:21

murder case for you, but I like to throw in these

58:23

every once in a while. See

58:25

you next week. Thanks, Paul. All right. Thanks,

58:30

Paul. Thanks. Thanks.

58:33

Thanks. This has been an Exactly

58:35

Right production. For our sources

58:37

and show notes, go to

58:40

exactlyrightmedia.com/buriedbones sources. Our senior producer

58:42

is Alexis Amorosi. Research by

58:44

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58:47

Kate Winkler-Dawson. Our mixing

58:49

engineer is Ben Talladay. Our

58:51

theme song is by Tom Breifogle. Our

58:53

artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. Executive

58:56

produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hart

58:58

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can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and

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59:05

most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a gilded

59:07

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59:09

the criminal mind, is available now. And

59:12

Paul's bestselling memoir, Unmasked, My

59:14

Life Solving America's Cold Cases,

59:16

is also available now.