0:01

This is exactly right. It's

0:07

1943 in the Kingdom of Bulgaria. As

0:10

the Second World War rages, King

0:13

Boris dies suddenly, and every nation

0:15

is a suspect. The

0:17

Butterfly King premieres March 21st on exactly

0:19

right. It's a

0:21

cruel tale of a doomed

0:24

royal dynasty. Somewhere,

0:26

the truth is out there. Listen

0:28

to the Butterfly King on

0:30

Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or

0:33

wherever you get your podcasts. I'm

0:40

Kate Winkler-Dawson. I'm a journalist who's

0:42

spent the last 25 years writing

0:44

about true crime. And I'm

0:46

Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator

0:49

who's worked some of America's most complicated

0:51

cases and solved them. Each

0:53

week, I present Paul with one of

0:55

history's most compelling true crimes. And

0:58

I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to

1:00

bring new insights to old mysteries. Together,

1:03

using our individual expertise, we're

1:06

examining historical true crime cases through

1:08

a 21st century lens. Some

1:11

are solved, and some are cold. Very

1:13

cold. This is Buried Bones.

1:27

Hey, Paul. Hey,

1:39

Kate, how are you? I'm doing well.

1:41

How about you? Oh, I'm

1:44

actually physically hurting. Oh,

1:46

no. What happened? An

1:48

encounter with a bear? What happened? Multiple

1:51

bears inside a jujitsu

1:54

studio. I

1:56

started Brazilian jujitsu, and

1:58

oh, my God, I'm getting it. getting my butt

2:01

kicked left and right over

2:03

and over again. I'm

2:05

going to need some videotape evidence of that.

2:10

Well, right now it's just my partners that

2:12

I'm sparring with are just folding me into

2:14

a pretzel. So it's not very exciting. Okay.

2:18

So what inspired this choice with

2:20

all of the other things that

2:22

you're able to do in Colorado?

2:25

Well, you know, I kind

2:27

of at various points in my life, I had

2:30

done or dabbled with martial

2:32

arts. You know, when I was a young

2:34

kid, my mom had me briefly in judo,

2:36

you know, and you know, the tumbling. And

2:40

then I did just briefly wrestling

2:42

in high school, did taekwondo for

2:45

a while in college, you

2:47

know, and then of course, you

2:49

know, going through the police academy and advanced

2:51

officer training would get defensive tactics instruction, which

2:54

is inspired a lot by, you know,

2:56

fundamental martial arts movements. So

2:59

I really wanted to, to

3:01

do that, but you know, the arthritis in the

3:03

shoulder had always prevented me. And

3:05

so now that I'm two

3:07

years post op for the shoulder

3:10

replacement, the

3:12

shoulder was feeling good enough to see

3:14

if I could try this. And so,

3:17

you know, I'm trying

3:19

it and being very careful with

3:21

the shoulder, but you know, you can't sometimes help

3:24

what the other person is doing to you. Was

3:27

this recommended? Was this, did your doctor really

3:29

sign off on this or did you, is

3:31

this like a don't ask, you

3:34

won't reveal anything sort of thing? I

3:36

think he would probably scowl at me if he

3:39

knew I was to my neck. Kind

3:42

of like me with indoor soccer. People

3:45

in my life saying, I don't know if publicity tour is

3:47

going to be in your future. If you get a black

3:49

eye, yes, I understand that with your shoulder.

3:52

Now, you know, the shoulder is a concern and

3:54

I mean, yeah, I've gotten beat up. I, you

3:56

know, I had a, it wasn't a black eye

3:59

yet. But got a

4:01

pretty good scrape underneath my eye,

4:03

but my feet my knees are

4:05

all you know scraped up You

4:08

know it's and it's different. I

4:10

you know I try to stay reasonably

4:12

fit though my cardio hasn't been the

4:14

best But I tell

4:16

you this is tough. It

4:19

really is a physically

4:21

demanding activity

4:25

and you know I hope I can you know

4:27

I don't get injured and Can keep

4:29

doing it because I think you know of course it

4:31

will just help help my fitness level, but also You

4:34

know the the self-defense aspect. I

4:36

think is huge And

4:39

just the the camaraderie you know with

4:41

yeah I mean you're getting as close

4:43

as you possibly can to people because

4:45

you're just rolling all the time with

4:47

you know all these People that are

4:49

in the class and you know

4:51

you form bonds. You're trying to

4:53

kick each other's ass, but it's in a good

4:55

good way So it's part

4:58

of mental health for you. I mean we know that's one

5:00

of your your biggest Ways of coping

5:02

with everything that you have to cope with is a

5:04

lot of different kinds of exercise So I have a

5:06

lot of respect for you for that. I think that's

5:08

great. Well it definitely you know the

5:11

Doing an activity because you know with

5:13

the arthritis my physicality had just gone

5:15

away You know I even though I

5:17

stayed active I knew how limited I

5:19

was and now that I'm

5:22

able to at least do something you know

5:24

it is Very it is

5:27

good. It kind of cleanses the soul

5:31

I'm sure a lot of people who follow you

5:33

on social media know this, but you are very

5:36

fit and despite what you're

5:38

saying you're very fit and You

5:40

have said to me several times when we've

5:43

done some rescheduling You've been really flexible because

5:45

my schedule at the University of Texas is

5:47

really wonky sometimes You've been really

5:49

flexible But one thing that you said that stands

5:51

out to me is you said my mornings my

5:53

early mornings are Sacred because that's

5:55

when you try to go to the gym and

5:57

so that I think that discipline's really great And

6:00

it's nice to see it expanding, not just since

6:02

the gym, but I know you're doing some swimming

6:04

and you're doing a lot of stuff where you're

6:06

really trying to rehab that shoulder and be

6:08

responsible with it. That's great. Yeah, we'll

6:10

see how it goes, you know. No

6:13

more scraped up eyes. I'm okay. Yeah,

6:16

I can't guarantee that, so. Listen,

6:19

as long as you don't get an elbow to

6:21

the windpipe, I think I'm okay with whatever you

6:23

do. But if we start, if I

6:25

start hearing your voice be affected, then I'm going to

6:27

have to put my foot down, I think.

6:30

Well, you know, that's one of the primary

6:33

parts of jiu-jitsu is the submissions,

6:35

and a lot of the submissions

6:37

are various chokes. No

6:39

sir, nope, no sir, no

6:42

choking, Paul. I should not

6:44

have to say that, but no choking, please.

6:46

I'm going to put a little insurance policy

6:48

on your voice. Nope, that's it, that's it.

6:51

You just be careful, and I'm sure you'll

6:53

be fine. But I'm glad that you're expanding

6:55

your horizons. I appreciate it. Okay,

6:58

let's go ahead and transition to our story,

7:00

which takes us to upstate New York, one

7:02

of my favorite spots. I wrote

7:04

a book set in upstate New York, and it's near

7:06

the Finger Lakes. And I want to give

7:09

people a warning that in this episode, we do talk about

7:11

the death of the child. So, let's

7:13

go ahead and get started. Let's set the

7:15

scene. Okay, so

7:18

let's jump into a story that is

7:20

very complicated. I know I say that

7:22

all the time. But this is really

7:24

a killer who there's

7:26

a lot more to this person than

7:28

it seems. So we're going to

7:30

be doing something a little different. We're going

7:32

to go into present day, which to me

7:34

is hilarious because it's 1846. And

7:37

then we're going to go back a few months,

7:39

and then we're going to go back to present

7:41

day 1846 to kind of

7:44

see if when you hear

7:46

about this crime initially, you'll have a reaction.

7:48

And then when we hear about the killer

7:50

and then return to the scene, I just

7:52

wonder what kind of clarity you have when

7:54

you learn about a killer's background. And we

7:57

haven't talked a ton about that yet. leads

8:00

killers to do what they do,

8:02

the level of brutality, and

8:05

how much do you, leading into

8:07

this episode, Paul, care about

8:09

a killer's background? Like

8:11

I know it informs you of stuff, you

8:13

know, but does it sway you very much

8:16

when you find out about things that have happened

8:18

to this person in the past? Yeah,

8:21

the offender's behaviors, of

8:23

course, are being dictated by his or

8:26

her own internal thoughts,

8:29

fantasies, and

8:32

what has caused them to lead

8:34

up to committing this act of

8:36

violence is often what

8:38

they've experienced in their past. Now,

8:41

typically, when I'm getting involved in a case

8:43

that's unsolved, I don't know the offender's past.

8:45

So what I'm doing is I'm reading what

8:47

I can discern from what

8:50

the violence the offender did, the interactions with

8:52

the victim, who the victim is, to try

8:54

to get a sense of the

8:57

offender's past to

8:59

help narrow the suspect pool. So

9:01

it's kind of in reverse. And

9:03

I kind of go to Golden

9:06

State Killer with Joseph D'Angelo. I

9:08

was doing all sorts of analyses

9:10

based on what the

9:12

victims, who he let live, what they

9:15

said he did, what

9:17

they said he said to them, but

9:19

also what he did during the homicides where the

9:21

victims can't speak. And

9:24

that was informative as I was

9:26

focusing in as to, okay, what

9:28

suspect pool am I going to

9:30

dive into? But once D'Angelo was

9:32

identified, I just wanted

9:34

to know a little bit about who he was, but

9:37

then I kind of pushed away. I'm all about the

9:39

hunt. And

9:41

so now I know there's probably a

9:43

lot more that's been made public

9:46

about D'Angelo that I haven't gone

9:48

and dug into him yet. That

9:51

may happen at some point. But

9:53

it is something that your

9:56

criminologists, your profilers, they

9:58

study. an

10:00

offender is identified, they study the offender's

10:02

past to try to learn,

10:05

okay, why did this

10:07

individual commit to this type

10:09

of crime? And how

10:11

can we utilize that information in the

10:14

future for other unsolved cases, you know,

10:16

to be able to help the investigation?

10:19

And that's not right now your main

10:21

interest when you're looking at these cases,

10:23

because I know you did mention that

10:26

about Joseph DeAngelo. Now that he's been

10:28

caught, you're not reading about updates on

10:30

court cases or his health or like

10:32

other people who are really interested in

10:34

true crime. You're moving on to the

10:36

next, because you're really interested in the

10:38

result, the end result, not necessarily what

10:41

led this person. You're not looking at

10:43

the mystery behind the dark mind, right?

10:45

Not once they're caught. Not

10:48

typically, no. You know, I have done that,

10:50

and that was just all part of sort

10:52

of the academic side in terms of learning

10:54

what can be discerned, you know, about

10:56

the offender and who the offender is based on what

10:58

the offender does to the victim or does at a

11:01

crime scene, et cetera. Maybe at

11:03

some point I will get more geared

11:05

into studying identified

11:07

offenders and their past, you know, but

11:09

it's just like, you know,

11:11

recently, relatively recently Long Island serial

11:14

killer was identified. And

11:16

all I needed to know is,

11:18

oh, he's architect, lived in the

11:20

area using the online space, sophisticated

11:22

offender. I don't need

11:24

to dive into his psychology, his upbringing, how

11:27

his father treated him or anything like that.

11:29

Right now, I don't have an interest. It's

11:31

like, okay, move on. You know, let's

11:34

focus in on another case that needs

11:36

some help to identify who's committing these

11:38

crimes or who has committed the crimes.

11:42

Well, for this case, I need you to be interested

11:44

in the guy's background. I

11:46

need you to do

11:48

a big think about what ends up happening

11:51

with the killer in this case. And I

11:53

know that because I've requested it. You will

11:55

do it, Paul Holes, even though I know

11:57

that's not your primary interest. Yes, ma'am. Okay,

12:01

so this is in New York State,

12:04

upstate New York, one of my favorite

12:06

places. My third book

12:08

and the first podcast was

12:10

set in upstate New York

12:13

near Ithaca, but it was right on

12:15

the Finger Lakes, which was, my

12:17

lake was Hugo Lake, but this is close to

12:19

one of the Finger Lakes, which

12:21

is Owasco Lake. It

12:24

doesn't play into the story, but it's nice for

12:26

you. I know I see you on Google Maps

12:28

right now. I know you like

12:30

to see current day stuff, but it's nice to

12:32

sort of picture this. I think it's a beautiful

12:34

area. I unfortunately end up being there in February

12:36

most of the time, which I still think is

12:38

beautiful, but the locals are always like, why are

12:40

you doing it now? Why don't you come in

12:42

the spring or in the fall? So

12:44

what do you think? It's a nice setting for us, right?

12:48

Yeah, you know, I'm looking at the

12:50

location in the country where it's at. I can see why

12:52

this name

12:55

of Finger Lakes, you've got

12:57

some very long, narrow lakes. All

13:00

spread throughout this region, you

13:02

know, Rochester, Syracuse, Ithaca. I

13:06

bet in February it's got to be freezing cold

13:08

though. It's freezing, yes, I can attest

13:10

to that. Freezing cold and slippery for me. Let

13:14

me tell you, I went into the backyard.

13:16

I was at Edward Rulof's old

13:18

home, which was the subject of the first season of

13:20

Tim Foldmore Wicked in my book. The

13:22

owner, who was one of his relatives, popped her head

13:24

out the window, and I was in the back, and

13:27

I was just standing on a pile of sticks,

13:29

and she said, you know you're standing on a pretty

13:31

large creek, right? And I looked

13:33

down, and she said, it's iced over,

13:36

I would get off the creek if you can

13:38

right now. And I thought, I mean,

13:40

I grew up in the country, but Texas, we don't

13:42

have stuff like that happening. So I

13:44

learned a little lesson about thinking sticks were safe

13:47

to step on. Yeah, that's scary. I'm

13:49

glad you didn't fall, break through the ice.

13:52

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up to 40% off. So we are

17:04

in the Finger Lakes region but it's

17:06

1846 which is pretty far back for

17:08

us and actually this is

17:10

right when Edward Rulof was stomping around this

17:13

area also so this is a time

17:15

period I've researched in this area. Let

17:18

me tell you about where we are. This is a

17:20

beautiful area now and in 1846 also. It's near the

17:22

lake I had mentioned

17:26

which is Owosco Lake and

17:28

it's one of New York State's 11 finger lakes. They

17:31

are long and narrow and

17:33

really pretty. I love it. Waterfalls and

17:35

a couple of them and it's very

17:38

nice. So in the

17:40

mid 19th century this area is

17:42

booming. Lots of manufacturing at mills,

17:44

lots of farmers. It's beautiful. The

17:47

Industrial Revolution has not quite gotten here

17:49

yet. It's very rural really but really

17:52

pretty. More

17:54

and more people are going to school even than the countryside.

17:57

Auburn and Fleming and this does come into play

17:59

a lot. Little bit Auburn and

18:01

Fleming, these are to the town's

18:04

what we're talking about. Eventually become

18:06

enshrined in history for their connection

18:08

to the abolitionist movement especially over

18:11

and because it's a hotspot for

18:13

abolitionists including Harriet Tubman. Black people

18:15

in Cuba County are still contending

18:18

of course, with discrimination and racism

18:20

and white supremacy that are plaguing

18:23

the nation just overall. So race

18:25

is a big part of the

18:27

story. Though you know alert you about

18:29

that right now look of. Services of

18:32

a beautiful area very rule

18:34

tight knit communities. You know

18:36

people know other people, but

18:38

for sure, racial tensions now.

18:40

Slavery officially ended in New

18:42

York State and eighteen Twenty

18:44

Seven. So that's sixteen years

18:46

earlier. But of course, Black

18:48

New Yorkers are still in

18:50

Syria's social and economic or

18:52

disadvantage and economic disadvantage compared

18:54

to white people. So this

18:56

means that, As I said,

18:58

racial tensions quite a lot.

19:00

especially. When crimes are being committed.

19:02

So now that I've said the same,

19:05

let's get to the first of a

19:07

couple different crimes. This is the main

19:09

one though. around Nine thirty Pm on

19:12

March Twelve, Eighteen Forty six. we are

19:14

going to focus on one family, the

19:16

Van Nest family. And there is a

19:18

woman named Sarah. We don't know her

19:21

age. We looked all through newspaper articles

19:23

and they were very vague, which is

19:25

not surprising for the nineteenth century. She

19:27

goes into her back yard, which isn't

19:30

slimming New York. And she

19:32

steps outside. We don't know. for what it

19:34

could have been firewood, it could have been

19:36

for anything. It's nine thirty at night. It

19:38

could win to use of the outhouse. We

19:40

don't know she is attacked. And

19:42

she is the first in this

19:45

family who is absolutely brutalized by

19:47

what seems. To be one Killer. so

19:50

the man is armed with a nice

19:52

there will be a witness in a

19:54

little bit who survives but most of

19:56

the people in this family do not

19:58

so she's out It's in March.

20:01

There could be snow on the ground.

20:03

We don't know. She steps outside. Someone

20:05

stabs her with a knife. Strong

20:08

upward sweep of the knife,

20:10

inflicting a single deep wound

20:12

in the abdomen. And

20:15

she dies shortly after being attacked.

20:18

So just on the offset, you've got

20:20

somebody in her backyard, fenced

20:23

in, inflamming, at 9.30 at

20:26

night who is attacking her. This woman,

20:28

for no apparent reason, and there doesn't

20:30

seem to be evidence of a sexual assault.

20:32

What, at first, blushes your thought about this,

20:34

besides it's awful, of course? You

20:37

said this was 9.30 at night. Correct. Okay,

20:40

so in March, it's obviously going to be dark. And

20:43

cold. Dark and cold. Now,

20:45

I'm assuming that this was not

20:48

a routine by Sarah in

20:50

terms of every night she's stepping out at 9.30. Doesn't

20:53

sound like it now. It sounds just... We don't know

20:55

why she went outside, but it could have been a

20:57

myriad of reasons. Okay, so at this

21:00

point, at first blush, this

21:02

sounds like Sarah was a victim of

21:04

opportunity. The offender was in the area,

21:06

was armed, and if

21:10

the offender pounced right

21:12

away, there was

21:14

no delay, there was no, you know, kind of

21:17

surveillance as Sarah's wandering around outside.

21:19

The offender had already committed

21:23

to committing violence, you

21:25

know, on whoever stepped outside. I can't

21:27

say that there is a focus on Sarah

21:29

at this point without knowing more. You

21:32

know, why was the offender in the area? Is

21:35

this a stranger to Sarah, a

21:37

stranger to the family? Is this somebody who has a

21:39

connection to the home? You know, these

21:41

are questions that I would be asking, you know,

21:43

is it possible? This is, you know, an

21:46

internal, an inside job, so to speak.

21:48

Within the family, you have a violent

21:50

actor who decides to take

21:52

Sarah out, you know, to

21:55

kill her while she's outside. But

21:57

right now, I'm assuming that

21:59

the offender is just happened to be

22:01

out there, whether to commit a burglary,

22:03

but had already in his

22:08

mind, and I'm going to just use the pronoun

22:10

his just because most of these types of crimes

22:13

are committed by males, but it's not specific. I

22:15

can't say for sure it's a male being

22:17

armed with a knife, and if he acted that fast,

22:20

he was there primarily with

22:22

an intent to commit violence. It's

22:25

interesting, just what

22:27

was described as a single upwards

22:29

sweep of the knife, and so

22:31

in essence you have probably a

22:34

stab followed by an incisive

22:37

action cutting through

22:39

Sarah, I'm assuming her abdominal

22:41

area, and it was enough

22:43

to kill her. There's no

22:45

additional stab wounds, no

22:48

defensive injuries, she was absolutely

22:50

blitzed, and the offender didn't spend

22:53

time with her. Oftentimes

22:56

you will see with knife attacks, the

22:59

victim is subdued, and then you have a

23:01

lot more knife play, more stabbing, stabbing in

23:04

the heart, stabbing in the neck, stabbing in

23:06

the face. This

23:08

is not happening here, so this is

23:10

almost like an elimination homicide, and then

23:12

the offender is moving on. I

23:14

think blitzed is an excellent way to describe

23:16

what's getting ready to happen. So yes, you're

23:18

accurate with everything you're saying so far, and

23:20

I will tell you at the end of

23:22

this, there is no robbery. It

23:25

doesn't mean that wasn't what his intention was, but

23:27

nothing was taken. Listen to

23:29

this, it's awful. So John, her husband,

23:31

Sarah's husband, the victim, hears her scream,

23:34

so she gets a scream out before

23:36

she dies. He's a local

23:38

farmer, about 41 years old, and

23:41

a justice of the peace, he

23:43

hears her scream, he rushes to the

23:45

back door, he's at the front of

23:47

the house, before he can step outside,

23:49

the doors open, and

23:51

the killer with this knife confronts him

23:54

and stabs him on the left

23:56

side of his chest near his

23:58

breastbone, one wound. five

24:01

inches deep and they say he dies instantly

24:03

in the doorway of his house. One

24:05

more, just one stab and it

24:07

keeps going just so you know. Yeah so

24:09

this knife, you know, the

24:12

description of the stab wound just left

24:14

of the breastbone, this knife, that stab

24:16

wound likely went into

24:18

John's heart, possibly

24:21

severed, you know, the aorta. For

24:23

him to just die instantly like

24:25

that, it was just a

24:28

perfectly placed stab wound. Now

24:30

you mentioned John was a justice of

24:32

the peace. Yep. Okay and

24:35

in 1846 is that

24:37

basically the equivalent of what I would

24:39

call a judge today? Yeah and

24:42

I think somebody who's just in law enforcement, so

24:44

I mean the justice of the peace I think

24:46

could be a judge, it also could be somebody

24:48

who responds, you know, if there's

24:50

an emergency, so yes. But he's also a

24:52

farmer, I mean you know people wore so

24:54

many hats in the 1800s. Sure

24:57

and so I'm just kind of keying in

24:59

on the victimology there in terms

25:01

of potential suspect pools. Who has he

25:03

run across during

25:05

his job, you

25:08

know, that could be

25:10

seeking vengeance. Yep. What

25:13

is the one wound, I know you

25:15

mentioned this with Sarah, but with a

25:17

man is the one stab wound significant

25:19

of anything? Does that tell you anything?

25:21

Because I could see with a woman

25:23

maybe he thinks just this one sweeping

25:25

would take care of her but this

25:27

is a 41 year old farmer

25:29

who we presume is in good

25:31

shape. Well I'm surprised because typically

25:33

in stabbing homicides there's

25:36

usually more wounds than just a

25:38

single wound. It's possible

25:40

that this this offender is

25:42

got a fair amount

25:45

of experience in using a knife

25:48

and knows you know

25:50

what it takes to kill somebody and

25:53

you know knowing where he

25:56

stabbed John and how John Reacted

25:58

afterwards had absolute confidence. That

26:00

and sad he killed Jon and

26:02

and then moves on. But just

26:05

like was Sarah that that the

26:07

offender is not spending time. It's

26:09

again this is an elimination homicide.

26:12

Or can smile. There's more. Elimination

26:14

hair so John as dead

26:16

in the doorway. Sarah's dead

26:19

outside he walks into the

26:21

house goes to the second

26:23

floor. And. Come face to face

26:25

with Sarah's mother. Who

26:27

was woman named A C B Y

26:30

costs. She's. On the staircase

26:32

I'm sure very upset. She sees

26:34

him with a nice bloody. She

26:36

tries to run. He. Stabs or

26:38

kills her. Ultimately she dies a little bit

26:41

later, but she still dies from the wounds

26:43

are at out. it is as wounds. I'm

26:45

not sure how many times, but if she's

26:48

actively if he hasn't surprised her and she's

26:50

actively, they're fighting or running. I I assume

26:52

he thought it would take more than one

26:54

stabbed to take care of her, but he

26:57

encounters her and he's killing anybody who gets

26:59

in his way. Essentially, So

27:01

you know what of the thoughts? Questions

27:04

I jokes that I that

27:06

I have is this offender

27:08

worker? He's He's killed Sarah

27:10

He's killed Jon He's going

27:12

into the house Cp is

27:14

upstairs. Fi you

27:16

know, the course of that I have is

27:19

as did he know that she was inside

27:21

this house before he entered or see now,

27:23

just kind of going in and doing in

27:25

essence a building serves, just trying to see

27:27

who is in the house and and killing

27:29

them as he encounters. I'm so right now

27:31

don't know you know, but it's interesting that.

27:34

You know he is progressing

27:36

going upstairs and of your

27:38

passwords or knows the these

27:40

up there or is wanting

27:42

to gst live in eight.

27:44

Anybody that's inside this house?

27:46

well let's keep. talking now we've

27:48

got sarah dead in the backyard

27:50

john her husband dead and the

27:52

doorway sarah's mother phoebe dad round

27:55

the staircase he enters a nearby

27:57

bedroom on the second floor and

27:59

And this is the warning that

28:01

I told the listeners about. This

28:04

is where the family, the Van

28:06

Ness family's child is. He's

28:09

two. His name is George. And

28:12

he's been sleeping with John and

28:14

Sarah, his parents. The killer goes

28:16

in with his knife. And

28:18

the newspaper report said that George

28:20

is stabbed to death so

28:23

severely that the knife passed completely

28:25

through his body. Now

28:27

what the hell does that mean, Paul? That

28:31

is not unusual

28:33

for a stabbing of

28:35

a small child like that. Oh, gosh.

28:39

In fact, I have a

28:41

case involving, it was a

28:44

whole family. It wasn't a case I went out

28:46

on. It was one I reviewed as a triple

28:48

homicide, a mother, father, and a

28:50

little boy, you know, and diapers and a

28:53

crib. And this is exactly

28:55

what happens when you have a long enough knife

28:57

going through such a small body. So

29:00

it doesn't really, it's not indicative

29:03

of any additional

29:06

anger or

29:08

level of violence being inflicted on George

29:10

relative to what was done to Sarah,

29:12

John, or Phoebe. But

29:14

killing a child, what

29:17

does that signify to you? Wiping out

29:19

a whole family or just wanting to

29:21

kill whoever's in your way? I

29:23

think it depends. You

29:26

could have an offender that has got

29:28

some vindictive rage that has just

29:31

decided I'm taking out everybody

29:33

related to this family. Like

29:37

in the other case that I reviewed that I

29:39

talked about where the toddler was killed, I

29:42

think it's very possible in that case the

29:45

toddler ends up awake

29:48

and is making a lot of noise, is

29:50

crying. And so now the

29:52

offender is eliminating that noise

29:55

because that elevates the risk of the offender

29:58

being detected inside the house. And

30:00

so it really just depends on, you know,

30:03

what I would be interpreting is how much

30:05

time the offender in this case is spending

30:08

with George. Is it a single stab

30:11

wound or is there a lot more

30:14

violence being inflicted on George than

30:16

that could be informative in terms

30:19

of why the offender is choosing

30:21

to kill the child? Well,

30:24

I'll tell you the offender doesn't

30:26

have very long to stab George

30:28

because we do have a survivor

30:30

out of this whole mess. So

30:33

we have Sarah in the backyard, John in

30:36

the doorway, the mother-in-law who's

30:38

in the staircase, and then George

30:40

is now dead. The offender

30:42

turns with this knife and starts to walk out

30:44

the door and he is

30:46

confronted by a farmhand. His

30:49

name is Cornelius Van Arstell and

30:52

he normally doesn't spend the night in

30:54

the house, but he did this night,

30:56

which is unfortunate for him. The offender

30:58

raises the knife and stabs Cornelius in

31:00

the chest, but because of all of

31:02

the noise, it sounds like Cornelius knew

31:05

this was trouble and he came armed

31:07

with a broom and he starts to fight

31:09

off the slasher with the broom. Barry

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slash buried bones. So

32:26

here's the curious part which starts to

32:28

play in to the request I had

32:30

of you if to think about when

32:32

we find out who this killer is,

32:35

what the background is and why it

32:37

matters. So he's fighting off Cornelius, this

32:39

killer, who has a broom. Cornelius,

32:41

being a farmhand, is putting up a

32:44

heck of a fight. The offender stops

32:46

trying to stab Cornelius at one point

32:49

and asks him, quote, is

32:51

there a man there? Before continuing

32:54

to try to stab him and

32:56

eventually Cornelius basically shoves him out

32:58

the door. It's an odd question,

33:00

is there a man there? But

33:03

I think that Cornelius was

33:05

interpreting it later on to

33:08

be like, is there somebody else there?

33:10

Maybe he was on the hunt for

33:12

someone. It was an odd question especially

33:14

to literally stop in the middle of

33:16

trying to kill somebody and ask a

33:18

question and then continue on. What

33:20

do you make of that? It is

33:23

odd. You think about this

33:25

dynamic, very stressful situation

33:27

that Cornelius has found

33:29

himself in. He's being confronted by

33:31

a man who's now trying to

33:33

kill him. One of the questions

33:36

that I would have about the interview,

33:38

you know, here he is as a

33:41

witness. He's making a

33:44

statement, okay, under this stressful situation

33:46

did he hear that statement accurately?

33:49

You know, that's always

33:51

going to be something that I

33:53

would be questioning just due to the nature

33:55

of how he's hearing that statement. But

33:58

assuming that that statement is accurate, Why

34:00

is the offender asking that? Is

34:02

he asking if there's

34:05

somebody, another male in the house?

34:08

Or is that a statement directed at

34:10

Cornelius? Are you a man? You

34:12

know? Almost as

34:14

if it's derogatory. I

34:17

don't know at this point, but

34:19

I have a feeling that that

34:21

will clarify itself as you tell

34:23

me more details about what Cornelius

34:25

witnessed. Here is an

34:27

option number three. I don't mean to lead

34:29

the witness here, but I also

34:32

wonder if there's a delusional

34:34

aspect to this. Oh,

34:36

okay, yeah. When he asks that question

34:38

and just finished listening

34:40

to our episode about

34:42

sleepwalking, and I just remember thinking, we've

34:45

encountered that quite a bit. People

34:47

who just claim that they don't remember what's

34:49

happening. And I'm not saying that's what's happening

34:51

here. It's just a question of, is that

34:54

a possibility too? Well, most

34:56

certainly. You know, and

34:58

this is where we start

35:00

talking about, are we dealing

35:02

with a psychotic offender, a

35:04

disorganized offender that is

35:06

just decided this is the house and I'm

35:09

going to go inside this house and take

35:11

everybody out? Well, we have

35:13

two more events that I think

35:15

are very odd, in a very

35:17

upsetting and odd crime spree here. And

35:19

I'm going to pause after each one and you tell

35:21

me what you think. So now you

35:24

know we've got three adults, one child

35:26

dead. We have a farm hand who's

35:28

been stabbed in the chest, but with

35:30

a broom has managed to get this

35:32

guy out the door. And

35:35

now I'm sure Cornelius is trying to figure

35:37

out, now that he shoved him out the

35:39

door and shut the door and locked it,

35:41

I'm sure Cornelius is trying to figure out

35:43

what he's going to do next, how he's

35:45

going to get help. He's seeing all these

35:47

bodies everywhere. He looks out the window, as

35:49

do we think a couple of the little

35:51

tiny kids who were living on a different

35:53

floor who might have been witnesses. We aren't

35:55

100% Sure, we just know

35:57

Cornelius Definitely saw everything. Yeah

36:00

says. That the man walked

36:02

out the door. After he got shoved out

36:04

the door, he walked away. And

36:06

then he turned around and he came back.

36:09

After all of this he comes back to

36:11

the house. He kicked the door. He bent

36:13

down and peered in the window. All.

36:16

While holding this nice. And

36:18

then he vanished. Why would he

36:20

go back? After fighting with

36:22

this man and clearly being ejected, why

36:25

would he go back and look in

36:27

the window to sing? So weird. Or

36:30

think as he's walking away,

36:32

he's recognizing that. Cornelius.

36:35

As a witness the you know

36:37

I don't have. Cornelius knows the

36:39

offender but could you is my

36:41

be able to describe the offender

36:43

and so he's going back to

36:45

eliminate that witness. That's the first

36:48

thing that pops into my head.

36:50

or he's deciding that is the

36:52

you know his job as unfinished

36:54

inside the house for whatever reason.

36:56

For. It seems like it's taking a

36:59

big risk by doing that, but you're

37:01

right and also season the heat of

37:03

all of this and not thinking straight.

37:06

Maybe that something he's doing? It seems

37:08

so odd. Now this gets even more

37:10

odd. Cornelius is looking out the window

37:13

after the man turned and left for

37:15

the second time. The offender goes to

37:17

the Van Nests stable. He gets on

37:20

an old unsteady horse and I imagine

37:22

once the ticket and have him take

37:24

off and take him to safety. But.

37:26

This is a very old horse and the as

37:29

an able. To carry the offender

37:31

very long. The horses up

37:33

collapsing a few miles away on a

37:35

road. And. You know

37:37

we could see this that far

37:39

away, right? So he's injuring the

37:42

offender when he falls down and

37:44

it sounds like what happens is

37:46

the offender grabs the nice. And

37:49

he stabs the horse to death. Is

37:51

that psychotic? Or. That just a

37:53

bad man. We don't know. Yes,

37:55

It's they don't know he had over

37:58

by I think you know. The

38:00

the and out he's frustrated and angry. The

38:02

horse didn't accomplish what he wanted to do

38:04

which is to get further away and so

38:06

he says. taken that anger out on the

38:09

horse. Could

38:11

be a delusional aspect

38:14

for sure, Some so

38:16

who knows, but I

38:18

imagine. This. Is a

38:20

fairly rural location? yes sir. So

38:22

he's probably the only one in

38:25

this spot with a horse. Was

38:27

the as opposed to you know

38:29

other horses and carriages see an

38:31

old riding buys of skis. Not

38:34

necessarily feeling that there's a lot

38:36

eyeballs that are going to be

38:38

seeing him so maybe he's he's

38:40

got a level of comfort knowing.

38:43

Okay, well he's he's upset with

38:45

a horse, possibly unless it's a

38:47

delusional act and he's taken some.

38:49

Time to to kill the source versus

38:52

just running off. To

38:54

new be delusional and angry

38:56

at the same time? Oh

38:58

absolutely okay. He had no

39:01

for shirts you know and

39:03

and delusional thoughts. I and

39:05

and I'm me I asked

39:07

purposes. I am not an

39:09

expert when it comes to

39:12

the various a mental health

39:14

conditions but these individuals can

39:16

take you to whether be

39:18

a normal anger response and

39:21

then of course during a

39:23

psychotic. Break. They

39:25

act out or they

39:27

misinterpret some but nine

39:29

incident but because of

39:32

their mental state that

39:34

is the stressor. That.

39:37

Kind of causes them to start

39:39

acting out violently. Scale because they're

39:41

miss perceiving are misinterpreting this benign

39:43

saying that is occurring in front

39:45

of them. Well,

39:48

it'll be interesting to see how

39:50

this unfolds. The offender who had

39:52

just stabbed a horse as well

39:54

as five people decides he still

39:56

needs to get out of town.

39:58

He goes to. Another stable that's

40:01

not too far away seals a

40:03

different horse and continues to go

40:05

out of town. So a couple

40:07

of things before we move forward

40:09

with the story about the dynamics.

40:11

Just so we know we have

40:13

that witness Cornelius and Cornelius was

40:15

asked once it was revealed that

40:17

this all happen in law enforcement

40:19

came and he was interviewed. He

40:21

was asked what does a man

40:23

look like and Cornelius said he

40:25

was a black man. The Van

40:28

Nest family was a white family.

40:30

And here we get into

40:32

the very complicated relationships between

40:34

black people white people in

40:36

eighteen, forty six upstate New

40:38

York. particularly complicated when a

40:40

crime happens. The Van Nests

40:42

had an excellent reputation and

40:44

the inter racial aspect of

40:47

the murderers sense shock waves

40:49

through the community and I

40:51

would have thought it would

40:53

been harder to catch the

40:55

offender, but people knew who

40:57

he was don't think it

40:59

was Cornelius. But I do think

41:01

that when word got around there

41:04

was some who turns out to

41:06

be the killer. His

41:08

name was William Freeman. He

41:10

is in his early twenties.

41:12

He is a black man.

41:14

He was arrested by constables

41:16

the next day forty miles

41:18

from the crime scene because

41:20

he was trying to steal

41:22

that stolen horse the one

41:24

that he did not stop.

41:26

And William Freeman. Was.

41:28

About to go under the

41:30

spotlight for murdering this white

41:32

family in it would become

41:35

something that really affected the

41:37

community. So. The

41:39

main suspect we have as William Freeman.

41:41

We'll know very much about him. I

41:44

will tell you that this story is

41:46

so big that it needs to be

41:48

a two parter in. it also makes

41:51

history. In the ports important

41:53

story. So I'm gonna leave

41:55

you with this. William Freeman is

41:57

a complicated man with of. Very

42:00

very difficult past and I just

42:02

I'm gonna wanna know from you.

42:04

How much does knowing about his

42:06

pass and what he's been through

42:09

inform you about what happened with

42:11

the Zionist family And that's what

42:13

we're going. Talk about next week.

42:16

So good and you know I have a

42:18

a ton of questions myself their of. Rome.

42:23

No more says salsa says okay so

42:25

I will see you next week with

42:27

part two of the story. Sounds

42:29

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