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0:34

I'm Kate Winkler-Dawson. I'm a journalist

0:37

who's spent the last 25 years writing about

0:39

true crime. And I'm Paul Holes, a

0:41

retired cold case investigator who's worked

0:43

some of America's most complicated cases

0:46

and solved them.

0:47

Each week, I present Paul

0:49

with one of history's most compelling true

0:51

crimes. And I weigh in using modern

0:53

forensic techniques to bring new insights

0:55

to old mysteries. Together, using

0:58

our individual expertise, we're

1:00

examining historical true crime cases

1:03

through a 21st century lens.

1:05

Some are solved and some are cold,

1:07

very cold. This is Buried

1:10

Bones.

1:28

Hey, Paul. Hey, Kate. How are

1:30

you? I'm doing well. How are you? I

1:32

think you're busy is what the rumor

1:35

is. I am quite busy. You

1:37

know, my paperback just came out, and

1:41

it's unmasked my life-solving America's cold

1:43

cases. But we added a chapter.

1:46

Oh. You know, so it has new content in it.

1:49

It's another case. But I

1:51

am now having a little bit of a break.

1:59

doing book tour type of events. Do

2:02

you ever get tired? And the

2:04

correct answer is no, you never get tired of

2:06

meeting with fans and listeners and readers.

2:09

But secretly you can just tell me,

2:11

does it get tiring doing all the traveling

2:13

that you do? Because I don't even

2:14

do a quarter of what you do and it's exhausting

2:17

for me. There's no question the travel beats

2:19

me up and book tours are especially

2:22

onerous because I'm having to be in a different

2:24

city, you know, every other day.

2:26

So I'm on a plane every other day at an airport

2:28

every other day, you know, changing hotels.

2:31

The events are fun. Meeting the fans are fun,

2:34

but I'm an introvert. And

2:36

so like when I now, in addition

2:38

to being, you know, in front of 500 people and then now

2:41

I have 500 people who are coming up and

2:43

getting their books signed and we're talking,

2:47

I'm exhausted by the end of those days. I go

2:49

home and I curl up into a fetal position

2:52

and I just crash. This

2:54

is your second book tour, right? Because this

2:56

is your first book. It's my first book. So I did,

2:58

you know, with the, when the hardcover

3:01

was released, I did a book tour then and

3:03

I didn't realize it, but the publisher said,

3:06

Oh, by the way, you're doing a book tour when the paperback

3:08

gets released. So it's for the same,

3:11

essentially the same book, but my second book tour.

3:13

So is there going to be another book in the works?

3:15

Do you have another lifetime worth of stories

3:18

in you? Paul

3:18

Holes is what everyone wants to know. You

3:21

know, there has been some discussion. There was

3:24

a fair amount of material that was written

3:26

that never made it into unmasked

3:29

and that's where, you know, there

3:31

is at least some already

3:34

written material that we could start a second

3:36

book. But as you know, Kate,

3:39

writing a book is hard. It's time

3:41

consuming. It is? Oh no.

3:45

It may be a bit before, you know,

3:47

a second book is even really

3:49

in earnest being talked

3:51

about, but there's a possibility. If

3:54

I had my druthers, I'd be out in the field

3:56

visiting a crime scene. You know what I mean? I

3:58

know.

3:59

We're trying to get you in the... the field Paul, I'm trying my

4:01

best.

4:01

It's hard when they're set

4:03

in 1885 like this

4:06

story coming up is. Oh

4:07

well, you know

4:09

I'll go out and visit the crime scene even

4:11

if it's just this big metropolitan area today

4:14

and it was a field back then.

4:16

It's still informative. Okay we're

4:17

on. Well this is set in Gilded

4:20

Age New York which is just my favorite time period

4:23

ever. I know it sounds like I say that with every single

4:25

case we have. This is the best one. No, this is the

4:27

best one. But Gilded Age New York

4:29

is what I've written about a lot. So this is going

4:31

to be a really interesting case. So this will

4:34

require some travel but it's the

4:36

best kind of travel because we're just

4:38

going to go back in time and talk about a really great

4:41

story. Oh

4:41

time travel. I like it. Oh

4:43

wait, don't we do that every time? I think you

4:45

have to pack now.

4:48

We do do that every time. Okay let's

4:51

go ahead and set the scene. So

4:54

this is in the Soho section

4:56

of New York in the Gilded Age

4:59

just a few blocks from Chinatown as I

5:01

always try to do. Let me explain what the dynamics

5:03

are of the neighborhood and where all the action is

5:05

here. This story for me is a good old

5:08

story about good old-fashioned police work

5:10

and really following the witnesses. So

5:12

you'll have a lot of questions that many

5:14

of the witnesses will be able to answer. There's

5:17

not a ton of forensics in here. It's a nice

5:19

little mystery and it is another

5:22

unsolved case. I told you I was

5:24

going to try to get more of these for you despite

5:27

my resistance to

5:29

unsolved cases. I want to try to get some more

5:31

in there because I know you like them. Well

5:33

yeah that's that's what I did

5:35

my entire career and I

5:37

think the fascinating aspect about the

5:39

unsolved case is really the the puzzle

5:41

solving you know and trying to lay

5:44

out okay that these are the facts then

5:46

this is how to how you could take

5:48

those facts how you can take the you

5:51

know the hunches that as an investigator you

5:53

have and start developing

5:55

the leads that you want to pursue or

5:58

forming opinions as to what

6:00

suspect or what type of suspect

6:02

pool we should be looking at.

6:04

And whether these cases are solved

6:06

or unsolved, I still walk away

6:08

from every episode learning a little bit more

6:10

about crime

6:13

and crime prevention and investigation

6:16

and victimology and crime profiling and

6:18

forensics. And that all is just so

6:20

helpful for me and what I do even outside

6:22

of these podcasts with books and everything else.

6:24

So I'm excited about this case.

6:27

So as I mentioned, we're in Soho. This is 1885 New

6:29

York. And

6:32

this is happening in a basement

6:34

restaurant, which is really interesting.

6:37

So this is on the corner of Spring

6:39

and Worcester streets. And here's

6:41

what the area is like. In the

6:43

1880s, Soho was going through a lot of change. There

6:46

is now a textile industry that's swooping

6:48

into Soho. And all of these brick buildings

6:50

that were beautiful are torn down

6:53

and made way for factories and

6:55

lofts. And over the next few decades,

6:58

the area really starts to decline.

7:01

And unfortunately, what that means

7:03

in New York is when I say decline,

7:06

it usually means lots of crime. And

7:09

the immigration community that moves

7:11

in is getting the brunt of it. So

7:13

a lot of people with Italian heritage, Sicilian

7:16

heritage, Irish, Puerto Rican, Cuban,

7:19

Dominican, and there are more immigrants

7:21

from Asian countries. So this is truly

7:23

a melting pot. Soho is a melting pot.

7:26

But it is often also

7:28

filled with people who are in tenements

7:31

and row houses, who are blue

7:33

collar workers, much less income,

7:36

more crime. There's a lot happening

7:38

in Soho in this time. Just so you know kind

7:41

of where we're coming from. Have you been to Soho before

7:43

in

7:43

New York? Believe it or not, I have.

7:46

What? You know, I had never been

7:49

to New York City or in particular

7:51

Manhattan up until

7:53

literally the day after I retired.

7:56

I got pulled out to New York, was

7:58

so impressed. you know, just by the immensity

8:01

of the city and the history. But I

8:03

did go down, I've been

8:06

to Soho a couple of times. Well,

8:08

let's start with the main character here.

8:10

He's

8:11

a restaurant owner and his

8:13

name is Antonio Saloa

8:15

and

8:16

he's from Cuba. He lived in Cuba. He's

8:18

from Cuba. And in November

8:20

of 1885, he's 40 years old.

8:23

When he was in Cuba, he made a living

8:25

by rolling cigars. And when

8:27

he comes to Manhattan, he does

8:29

that there too until he decides he wants to

8:31

own a restaurant. So he bought

8:34

a restaurant which was called Restaurant

8:36

Cubana and it was also

8:38

where he lived and this would have been very common.

8:40

This is a small joint. My mom

8:43

is a huge fan of really kind of tiny

8:46

home feeling and that

8:48

was this place. This is very small,

8:51

less than a thousand square feet which included

8:53

not only the restaurant but where he slept.

8:56

So he slept in a 60 square

8:59

feet area and the kitchen was

9:01

about 50 square feet and the

9:03

kitchen and Antonio's sleeping

9:06

area were kind of crudely partitioned

9:08

off from the dining room with tall walls.

9:11

But this was his pride and joy, this

9:14

restaurant. And this is an immigrant who came in and

9:16

is trying to create out

9:18

of nothing a really nice

9:20

business and it's a popular place.

9:22

Well, yeah, I'll tell you, I haven't

9:25

had much Cuban food. Here

9:27

you have authentic Cuban

9:29

food being served at this restaurant and guess

9:31

what my favorite sandwich is? The

9:34

Cuban. I

9:36

did not know that. A good Cuban

9:39

cannot be beat.

9:40

So you know I learned all this forensics

9:43

and everything at the end of the episode and I do learn

9:45

a little nugget about Paul holes

9:47

by the end of every episode. Okay, so I didn't know that.

9:50

Wait, so what is it? Is that ham? What is that?

9:51

You know, it's I think it's several

9:54

different meats including ham

9:56

but you know for me it's just that combination

9:59

with the cheese. the sauce, the fact

10:01

that it's been kind of pressed and

10:03

grilled. You got the mustard, the pickle. It's

10:06

great.

10:06

Leave it to you to wax poetic about

10:08

a sandwich, but I'm

10:10

glad you're Perky because

10:13

this story becomes pretty unpleasant

10:15

pretty quickly. So Antonio

10:18

is a thriving restaurant owner. He lives

10:20

at this place. It's in a basement. It's

10:22

in an area that's thriving but also

10:24

struggling at the same time. He

10:27

really tries hard to make this a nice restaurant. It's

10:29

adorned with pictures of George

10:31

and Martha Washington. There was a birdcage

10:35

that was there hanging from the ceiling.

10:37

You know, there were only four tables, but

10:39

they could total seat about 30 people. They

10:41

could squeeze 30 people into this restaurant. And there

10:44

was a large water jug by the restaurant's front

10:46

entrance for people who were thirsty.

10:48

There was a stove that couldn't even fit in

10:50

the kitchen. They had to put it in the center

10:52

of the dining area. And then

10:55

in the corner, there's a drawer that

10:57

Antonio used as a cast register.

10:59

So this is a very tight restaurant

11:01

that turns into a very

11:03

small crime scene, which

11:05

makes it even more interesting

11:06

for me. So this is

11:08

when the murder takes place. Sometime

11:11

between 2 p.m. and 3 p.m. on November 2nd, 1885. Between 2 and 3,

11:13

there's a vegetable

11:18

vendor named Thomas Daley who arrived

11:20

at the restaurant. And he goes downstairs

11:23

into this basement restaurant to see if

11:25

Antonio needed to place an

11:27

order for vegetables, which is likely because

11:30

it's a popular restaurant. There's all sorts of people

11:32

who come in and out. And most

11:34

of them are from the Cuban-American population.

11:37

So when Thomas Daley goes downstairs,

11:40

he's shocked to see the scene.

11:43

So Antonio is lying

11:45

on the restaurant's floor. He has been brutally

11:47

beaten. You know, the police come

11:50

and they identify him

11:52

pretty quickly from the neighbors. Let

11:54

me tell you what the injuries were like. He

11:56

was so severely beaten that his face

11:58

was like jelly, quote unquote. and

12:00

his left eye had been knocked out of its socket

12:03

lying in his long blood-soaked

12:06

hair and he had been stabbed ten

12:08

times. I want you to pay attention

12:10

to these injuries, not that you wouldn't normally,

12:12

but pay attention because I need to know about blood

12:15

and the likelihood that the offender

12:18

would have a lot of blood

12:20

on him because we've talked about this before,

12:23

but before you talk about that, you know, this

12:25

is somebody who's been beaten, he's been

12:27

stabbed ten times. If I as

12:30

a layperson were looking at this, I would say

12:32

this is overkill, right, and I would

12:34

say this has to be personal, not

12:36

a professional hit or not a robbery.

12:39

Am I wrong in making that assumption?

12:41

And I know that you will probably say

12:43

there's always exceptions to everything,

12:46

but does this spell personal to

12:48

you? Stabbed ten times and beaten

12:50

so bad that his eyeball is popped

12:53

out.

12:53

Yeah, you're wrong. There's

12:59

so much that goes into assessing, like

13:01

in an unsolved case, you know, what is

13:03

the motive of the offender and just

13:06

the modalities of cause of

13:08

death. The bludgeoning and the stabbing is not

13:11

enough to try to discern, you know,

13:14

is there anything that indicates there's some sort of

13:16

interpersonal aspect between the offender

13:18

and the victim. The initial assessment

13:20

that I'm going to be doing is going to

13:22

be, okay, I've got a male victim. Now,

13:25

is there evidence that there was a struggle

13:27

between this male and the offender, the

13:30

victim and the offender? Is this an ongoing

13:32

struggle? Because now I have maybe two

13:35

equally capable combatants

13:38

where this is going to be a prolonged battle

13:40

between these two individuals. This

13:43

is where you start to see greater injuries

13:46

to the victim. Now the offender is likely also

13:48

receiving some sort of injuries during

13:51

this battle if both combatants

13:53

are equal and it's a

13:55

fair fight. You know, sometimes you'll

13:57

get the blitz attack where the victim is

14:00

incapacitated right away. But

14:02

also now it's like the focus of the violence.

14:04

We have bludgeoning to the head. Well, that's how you kill

14:06

somebody, right? Of course, most

14:09

bludgings are to the head. If

14:11

you have, let's say, something like a hammer,

14:14

you could be beating them all day long in the chest,

14:17

chances are you're not going to kill them. You need to be hitting

14:19

them in the skull. So that's

14:22

not something that really gives

14:25

me much information in terms of

14:27

the relationship between the offender and the victim.

14:30

The eyeball being out, I mean, I

14:32

can tell you, I was at a bar shooting and

14:35

then I had a deputy who confronted a guy who

14:37

was just walking by. I go outside

14:39

and this guy's eyeball is

14:41

hanging down by his cheek. He

14:44

had just gotten into a fight several

14:46

blocks away and the deputy saw him

14:48

and going, hey, do you need some help? And

14:51

then it's kind of escalated in terms

14:53

of guy with eyeball out of his eye

14:55

socket ends up being arrested. That's

14:59

not real indicative of the force

15:01

being used. The stabbing is

15:04

where I would want to evaluate

15:06

are the stab wounds anti-mortem? Are they post-mortem?

15:09

Are they clustered in a particular area? Are

15:11

they spread around the victim's body like the

15:13

victim is still struggling and moving as he's

15:15

being stabbed? And one of

15:17

the things that I always, when I train people

15:20

who are now trying to assess injuries,

15:23

particularly stabbings, we have so

15:25

many jail shankings on video.

15:29

People go, well, it's 10 stab wounds. This

15:31

is just dramatic overkill. It's like, well, no.

15:34

Watch a shanking in a jail. 10 stab

15:37

wounds occur in seconds. I

15:39

have to look at the totality

15:41

of everything before I could start going,

15:44

yes, I believe that the offender

15:47

knew the victim, was angry with the victim. That's

15:49

why there's so much violence. Or was

15:51

this a situation where

15:53

they're just incapacitating a victim who's struggling?

15:56

Or is there an aspect where there's torture,

15:58

where they're trying to extract it? information from the victim,

16:01

it's more complicated than just bludgeoning

16:03

and stabbing.

16:04

Well I think I have a lot of answers for you. Now

16:06

I have so many answers that you need to tell

16:09

me where you want to go first. I have

16:11

the coroner's report from the autopsy.

16:13

I have whether

16:15

things were taken, what the possible motive was,

16:17

you know, what they find or don't find

16:20

at the crime scene. And I also have the

16:22

sheer amount of damage that clearly

16:25

was like a brawl between

16:27

these two men inside this tiny

16:29

restaurant in the middle of the day in Soho.

16:32

Which one of these three things

16:33

do you want to talk about first? We are going to

16:35

just implement the way I approach

16:38

unsolved cases and the way I approach

16:40

unsolved cases is first I want to know what's

16:42

happened to the victim because that can

16:44

often be informative and it helps

16:47

me assess the crime

16:49

scene. So I do need to know the autopsy

16:51

first and this is what I always do when I approach

16:54

an unsolved case. I look at the autopsy.

16:57

I need to know what has happened and what injuries

17:00

the victim has and that helps me interpret what I'm seeing

17:02

at the crime scene. Then I look at the crime scene.

17:04

Then I look at forensic lab reports. I

17:07

don't look at investigative stuff or potential

17:09

suspects until I have formed

17:11

opinions as to what I think

17:13

is going on. And so let's

17:15

kind of go through this process step

17:17

by step. Okay so I'm gonna

17:20

start reading it's about a paragraph long. There's

17:22

a lot of detail. I'm sure not enough for you

17:24

always. I know you want

17:25

as much detail as possible. Put

17:27

your hand up if you need me to pause because you need

17:29

to comment on something but they go through an awful

17:31

lot of the injuries here. Okay you ready? Yep.

17:34

Okay the coroner conducts this autopsy

17:36

and he finds that both the frontal

17:39

and occipital bones were fractured.

17:41

The upper and lower jaw bones and

17:43

the nasal bone were crushed while

17:46

from three knife wounds on the

17:48

left side of the head portions

17:50

of the brain were oozing. On the

17:52

left side of the chest were ten

17:55

knife thrusts extending from

17:57

the third to the eighth rib. these

18:00

ribs were cut through. One of these cuts

18:02

penetrated completely through

18:05

the heart, while two others went

18:07

through the lungs and touched the heart.

18:10

The diaphragm was severed and the liver

18:13

and intestines had been reached

18:15

by the blade. The hands had

18:17

been cut evidently while

18:19

Antonio was endeavoring to gain

18:22

possession of the knife.

18:24

End of report. Okay. Now,

18:26

you know, with the types of injuries

18:29

to his face, to his skull, you

18:31

know, obviously from a bludgeoning instrument,

18:34

this is where when you have a pooled

18:36

blood source, and you have a blood force instrument

18:38

strike that pooled blood source, this is where you

18:40

get this blood spatter pattern. That

18:43

informs me, okay, I've got blows

18:45

to his face, to his head. I would

18:48

expect that there potentially

18:51

is going to be spatter pattern within the

18:53

crime scene that helps me place

18:56

where his head was at certain

18:58

moments in time during the commission of the

19:00

homicide. Now, the stab wounds

19:02

are interesting. We've got stab wounds to

19:05

the left side of his head. You know, the sequence,

19:07

if you have a distribution of the stab

19:10

wounds, let's say the stabbing is occurring first,

19:12

and I don't know if that's happening or not, but

19:14

it sounds like it very well may be

19:16

with the defensive injuries to his hands,

19:19

because I would imagine, you know, with

19:21

the types of fractures to his frontal and occipital

19:24

bones, he's going to be incapacitated

19:27

and likely has lost consciousness. So

19:30

it may be the defensive injuries to his

19:32

hands is that the offender is initially attacking

19:34

him first with a knife, and then

19:37

whether the victim is still upright,

19:39

still conscious, don't know without assessing

19:41

the crime scene, but now you

19:43

have the massive blows being inflicted

19:46

to his head causing

19:48

these skull fractures. So

19:51

now let's go to the crime scene. Let's see what they

19:53

say about the crime scene and any blood patterns

19:55

present. Hmm,

19:56

okay, I don't know about blood patterns, but they

19:58

do try to assess. where all this

20:00

happened, they don't have to look for

20:02

a murder weapon because there

20:04

is a bloody 15 inch, 15

20:07

inch knife sitting right next to Antonio's

20:10

body. Before you ask, I don't know if this

20:12

is Antonio's knife or it was brought. Here's

20:14

what was something that was interesting and you can tell me if this

20:17

tallies with the coroner's report. They said

20:19

that the knife itself was bent

20:21

as if someone had twisted it in

20:24

Antonio's body during the attack.

20:26

Is that kind of the rib thing that they were talking

20:28

about? All the ribs were cut?

20:29

No, we frequently see

20:32

knife blades damaged or broken

20:35

and stabbing and it's not so much from

20:37

hitting the bone. Think about this and

20:39

this can be a little graphic for some people. This

20:42

is a 15 inch long knife. During

20:45

the stabbing with the victim on the

20:47

floor, that blade is passing potentially

20:50

all the way through the victim's body and then impacting,

20:53

I'm assuming it's a cement floor. At least

20:55

it's a hard surface underneath him. When

20:58

that knife suddenly stops as the offender

21:00

is thrusting the knife through the victim, this

21:02

is when you start to see knife blades being

21:05

bent or broken. Also, when you

21:07

start to see the offender's hand slipping

21:09

off the handle and going on the blade

21:11

and they get cut themselves, that's what we always hope

21:14

for in stabbings is now we have an offender

21:16

who's bleeding. Sometimes striking

21:18

bone will cause that, but this is

21:20

a significant knife. If the offender's

21:22

holding onto it and thrusting with

21:24

force, 15 inch blade, I think

21:27

it's going all the way through the victim's body

21:29

and striking the floor.

21:31

Now, we'll talk about forensics a

21:33

little bit. Not that they were able to

21:35

do anything in this case, but you could tell me what's possible

21:37

here. The stove,

21:40

which we said was too big to be installed

21:43

in this tiny little kitchen, it's in the center of the dining

21:45

room, had been dented by a blow,

21:47

we're going to presume from his head,

21:50

had blood and hair stuck

21:52

on it. Meanwhile, remember

21:54

there was this communal jug of water

21:55

that Antonio had kindly put by the

21:58

front door so people could come and get some water.

21:59

It was a dull red color. You

22:02

know, I think the thought was that whoever did

22:04

this put his hands in to

22:05

maybe wash the blood off

22:07

and there was a nearby towel that had

22:09

several bloody finger marks on

22:11

it. Can you pull fingerprints off

22:14

of a bloody talc? I mean, what would be useful

22:16

today aside from DNA, of course?

22:18

Everything.

22:21

Well, I guess your last detail

22:23

first, you know, the blood on

22:25

this towel. Generally towels,

22:28

even if they have a fabric

22:30

that has the tightest weave

22:32

possible, it's still not going

22:34

to be possible to get a

22:37

print off of such a textured

22:39

surface. So chances are

22:41

what you've got is just some bloody fingers

22:46

grabbing the towel. You can tell. I mean, you see

22:48

this all the time. You know, somebody

22:50

has grabbed a surface and you can see the

22:52

outline of fingers or a thumb or something. There's

22:54

just no ridge detail to be able to do

22:57

anything with. The dent

22:59

in the stove with the blood

23:02

and hair is interesting. This

23:05

could be from, you know, he's receiving

23:08

blows while he's still upright and he

23:10

falls and hits his head on the side

23:12

of the stove, but I would not eliminate

23:15

the possibility without knowing more

23:18

of the offender taking the victim's

23:20

head and ramming it into

23:22

the stove. Yeah. And you would get the

23:24

same type of damage

23:26

as well as blood and potential

23:28

hair transfer. So right now I

23:31

can't say one way or another, you know, and

23:33

this is where I'm wondering

23:35

is there evidence that a separate

23:37

bludgeoning instrument was used or do

23:39

we have an offender grabbing the

23:41

victim's head, hitting it on the stove,

23:44

hitting it on the ground, which happens

23:46

and can cause blunt force trauma

23:48

like what we're seeing in this case.

23:50

Police do not have any

23:52

information about another weapon. The only

23:55

thing is this knife that has been left

23:57

behind and that's it. Let's

23:59

talk about. motive because it seems

24:02

like robbery was the motive because

24:05

the front door had been busted open

24:07

which suggested a forced entry.

24:10

One thing that a witness will tell us later is

24:12

that Antonio had a habit of shutting down

24:15

right after the lunch rush, locking

24:17

the door, leaving and then coming back. So

24:19

anybody who knew his routine, you know,

24:22

knew that the door would be

24:24

potentially locked even if he was inside until

24:26

he opened the doors up again. Everything in the restaurant

24:28

of value had been taken. His pockets

24:30

had been emptied out, a trunk in

24:33

his sleeping area had been ransacked, the

24:35

restaurants register had been cleaned out.

24:37

Anything that was worth anything had been

24:39

taken and there were

24:42

things that were stained with blood all over

24:44

the place. Little cards and strips of paper

24:46

were stained with blood that were presuming the

24:48

killer sort of rifled

24:50

through and and left Antonio's

24:52

blood or his own blood behind.

24:55

So if he takes the time to rob

24:57

this place, it sounds like pretty thoroughly,

25:00

but he doesn't take the knife. That

25:02

seems weird to me. Does it not to you or do

25:04

people just don't think that way? I think about stuff

25:07

like this.

25:07

Leaving the knife behind,

25:10

I think we also have to remember

25:13

when this case is occurring. You know,

25:15

what kind of evidence could be used during

25:17

this era to identify who

25:20

the offender was based on him leaving

25:22

the knife behind. There was nothing that they could

25:24

do. I mean we're even in the

25:26

infancy of fingerprint technology

25:29

at this point and the offender

25:31

likely is completely unaware of fingerprint

25:34

technology during this time.

25:36

Yeah, it wouldn't have been available in 1885 at all.

25:38

I mean, Oscar

25:41

Heinrich innovated fingerprinting

25:43

in the United States and that was

25:45

like 1910. I mean it was very much

25:47

later on so they really were pretty

25:49

clueless I think at this point. So

25:52

what they want to know is

25:54

they want to really try to figure out

25:57

how the killer got out.

25:59

There's only one way to get in and get out of this

26:01

restaurant. How they got out without

26:04

being noticed that this was a

26:06

very bloody scene. Would the killer

26:08

not have been completely covered with

26:10

blood? It didn't appear like

26:13

he changed and put on Antonio's clothes

26:15

and walked out completely clean.

26:17

And I don't know if you had answered this earlier

26:19

and we've talked about this before. Is it possible for

26:22

him to have gotten away after this raucous

26:25

that happened in the middle of this tiny restaurant

26:27

without a significant amount of blood

26:30

on him or at least maybe be able to pull his

26:32

jacket over a shirt that got bloody

26:34

in the middle

26:35

of this? No, absolutely. The

26:38

misperception out there is

26:40

that when you have the super

26:43

bloody crime scene that the offender must

26:45

have blood all over them. There are

26:47

times that yes the offender gets very

26:49

bloody. However, most of

26:51

the blood at any of these types of crime scenes,

26:54

particularly if there's large blood pools,

26:57

those formed after the offender was long

26:59

gone. Right? The body is just laying

27:01

there bleeding out and the offender has already

27:03

escaped. He's never had to step over

27:06

that blood pool. He never had to interact with the victim

27:08

with that blood pool present. In

27:10

this situation, let's talk about

27:12

a stabbing. Generally,

27:14

stabbings don't produce

27:17

a lot of bleeding that

27:19

is going to get onto the offender.

27:22

There are times where, of course, you

27:25

can get some, as you

27:27

have multiple stab wounds in the same location,

27:29

the knife starts getting bloody. You

27:32

start getting some drops that could end

27:34

up on the offender. But oftentimes,

27:37

if you have, let's say, stab wounds that are distributed

27:40

across the body and not clustered into one

27:42

location, you don't have

27:44

like this real bloody

27:47

area that the knife is constantly going in

27:49

and out of that's causing a lot of blood

27:51

to get onto the blade. And generally,

27:54

outside of cast off, stabbings

27:57

don't produce like blood spatter.

28:00

that is flying everywhere.

28:01

Even if you're hitting an artery

28:04

or, you know, I mean, I know that there are parts of your body

28:06

that you can hit where it spurts, even if

28:08

that happens?

28:08

That can happen notably with the neck.

28:11

Okay. You know, that's really in stabbings.

28:14

If you hit the carotid, there's

28:16

a possibility you can get what we call an arterial

28:19

spurt. And if that happens

28:21

to get on to the victim, that would be a little

28:23

bit more significant amount of blood. But

28:26

more typically what happens is you

28:28

have stabbings in which the knife blade

28:30

goes in and it comes out. Of course, that

28:32

wound starts to bleed. But as the blade

28:35

comes out, notably like

28:37

the fat layer, which doesn't

28:39

have a lot of blood in it to begin with,

28:42

kind of wipes with the knife blade

28:44

clean. And then you stab somewhere

28:47

else and bring it out. So you're not getting

28:49

a ton of blood that

28:51

most people would expect. Now

28:53

the bludgeoning is a little bit different because

28:56

you can start getting spatter

28:58

as you beat somebody on, let's

29:00

say, their face and their head, and you start

29:02

getting some pooled blood sources

29:06

that the more blows you inflict, the

29:08

more spatter you get. Most

29:10

of the time, though, that spatter is shadowed

29:14

from the offender by the weapon itself.

29:17

So the weapon, let's say it's a baseball

29:20

bat. Well, oftentimes that

29:22

baseball bat will prevent

29:25

much of the blood droplets from flying

29:27

back onto the offender because now the droplets

29:29

are going out away from the

29:32

head and can't

29:35

come back at the offender because the bat

29:37

is in the way. But I would expect,

29:40

in this case, that the offender,

29:42

without seeing anything, that's

29:44

my caveat. If the offender had blood

29:47

on him, he likely had

29:49

some spatter low down

29:52

on his shoes, on his pant legs,

29:55

because I think the victim is attacked

29:57

initially with a knife and then is

29:59

even Eventually either bludgeoned

30:02

or stomped to death on the head and

30:04

then the offender has a few drops of blood

30:07

on him And possibly could easily

30:09

just walk out of the shop, you know But then

30:11

up his sports coat and walked down the

30:13

street and nobody would know that

30:16

he had been involved in any act of violence

30:18

Well, the police don't know that because they

30:20

are assuming that this guy is a ghost that

30:23

he would have left bloodied head to toe None

30:26

of Antonio's clothes were missing and nobody

30:28

knows what happened when the police start canvassing

30:31

I think this is an interesting story about

30:33

witnesses when the police start canvassing

30:35

They start gathering more and more information

30:38

about Antonio, which makes this case

30:41

a little more complicated So

30:43

they start asking with neighbors Antonio

30:46

is the only employee of his own restaurant.

30:48

He has no family. He's not from New York

30:50

He lived in Cuba and he's well

30:53

liked but people know he has a

30:55

lot of money and he's kept a lot

30:57

of money There is a woman who

30:59

said that, you know, she thinks

31:02

he was targeted specifically because

31:04

the restaurant does really well even though it's tiny

31:06

and That she was afraid that's

31:09

why he was gonna get killed and that she's

31:11

not surprised that he was a target considering where they

31:13

lived And in this time

31:15

period, you know, particularly in this area

31:18

He would have been a target they tracked down

31:20

a guy named Julius daikon who

31:22

was someone who knew Antonio really well

31:25

And he had eaten at the restaurant about

31:28

an hour or two before Antonio

31:30

was murdered And he said he

31:32

actually watched Antonio lock up the restaurant

31:35

when Julius got up and left

31:38

Antonio got up and locked the restaurant and

31:40

left the property at about one o'clock He

31:43

said that this was a big part of his routine

31:45

as I told you you always left the restaurant for a break in

31:47

the Middle of the day. So let's talk about routines

31:50

because we've talked about this with many other cases.

31:52

I don't think this was random I think this was targeted.

31:55

How important is it when you're

31:58

investigating to know? Who

32:00

would have known the person's routine? Is

32:02

it a bad idea for us to all have routines?

32:05

You know, I mean it makes me paranoid about

32:07

am I leaving the house at the same room? What if somebody

32:10

is watching me and the routine part of

32:12

this is interesting. Somebody knew when

32:14

to get back to this restaurant. Somebody

32:16

knew when he would come back. Well,

32:18

this is this all goes into victimology.

32:21

Victimology is just not who

32:24

is this person, but it is, you know,

32:26

what is their life? What is their lifestyle? The

32:29

daily routine is a big

32:31

part of it in assessing this

32:33

case when the offender seemingly

32:36

knows when to attack. You

32:38

know, that would indicate that the offender has

32:40

become aware of the victim's

32:43

routine. Now, does

32:45

that mean the offender knows the victim? Absolutely

32:47

not. This could just be from

32:50

just simple surveillance. You know,

32:53

somebody who is in this case, this

32:55

guy has some significant financial

32:58

assets that are inside the restaurant. I'm

33:00

going to watch and plan, you know, and

33:02

that would tell me I'm dealing with an organized

33:05

offender. This wasn't a spur-of-the-moment

33:08

type of attack. If the offender

33:10

is taking the time to watch the victim,

33:13

figure out the routines, plan

33:15

how to get in and carry out this

33:17

crime, and then clean out this

33:19

restaurant. It's not just grabbing, you know,

33:22

the cash out of the registrar or they're

33:24

cleaning out this restaurant. They're taking

33:26

time to do that. So

33:29

that tells me yes, this is a,

33:31

you know, there is a financial aspect to

33:34

the offender's motive, and there's

33:36

also some level of planning.

33:38

But you could also just have somebody who

33:40

was a customer who the victim

33:42

is like, okay, time to close, and the customer

33:45

is like the last one in there going, no,

33:47

you're not closing right now. In fact,

33:49

I'm going to take, you know, all your money

33:52

and kill you, and then I'm gonna lock up after

33:54

the fact.

34:09

Well, the police continue to canvass and they

34:11

are talking to the many shop owners that surround

34:14

the restaurant. They contact

34:16

this guy named Patrick Ryder, who was a plumber.

34:19

So he was one shop level

34:21

above Restaurant Cubana and

34:23

he heard glass breaking around 2.20 p.m.

34:26

It was enough for Ryder

34:29

and his coworker to step outside the shop

34:31

and onto the street level but remember

34:33

Antonio's restaurant was basement level. So

34:36

they just sort of looked around and didn't see anything.

34:38

And I don't think they could tell that it was coming specifically

34:41

from his restaurant. So

34:43

they didn't notice anything out of the ordinary

34:45

but they did hear glass break. So

34:47

police now are operating under the

34:49

idea that this is a robbery, that

34:52

he walked in on someone

34:54

breaking through his door and he

34:56

walked in and there was a robbery happening

34:59

at the same time. So far, does

35:01

that make sense to you, Paul?

35:03

That absolutely does make sense. Okay.

35:05

Things get a little bit more complicated for

35:07

the police because they are talking

35:09

to a lot of different people and they

35:12

discover something interesting about Antonio

35:14

Saloa. That is not

35:17

his name. He

35:19

is not Cuban. He is

35:21

from China. And his real name

35:24

is Chong Ong. So

35:27

he did live in Cuba. He did rap

35:29

cigars. That was his job in Cuba. But

35:32

he was from China. And

35:34

he came and changed his name. And

35:36

the police are now wondering if he was hiding

35:38

under the identity of Antonio

35:41

Saloa and they

35:43

want to know if this really is a

35:45

robbery or if this was something

35:47

politically motivated or a personal

35:50

vendetta that they can't even sort

35:52

out because they assume that this was

35:55

a neighborhood robbery and it becomes

35:57

more complicated because I don't

35:59

know. if they've really heard of someone

36:02

not only just changing their name but changing

36:04

their you know identity, their racial

36:07

identity. While we're sort

36:09

of moving forward because I don't want this to be a red

36:11

herring, it doesn't sound like he

36:13

was a criminal. It sounds like when

36:16

he went to Cuba from China, he identified

36:19

with the Cuban culture and when

36:21

he came to New York, he changed his name

36:23

to sort of become that. He

36:26

loved Cuban food. He knew how to cook it.

36:28

He wanted to assimilate in that way and

36:31

nobody seemed to question him that he was

36:33

not Cuban. So this is still

36:36

a mysterious man and it's part of

36:38

victimology. It doesn't seem nefarious

36:41

but it is interesting and it does say

36:43

something about Gilded Age New York where you have all

36:45

of these immigrants coming in and you

36:47

can be anybody. Sure.

36:48

Do you know how long he was

36:51

portraying himself as this

36:53

Cuban Antonio?

36:55

The entire time he was in New York and

36:57

probably when he was in Cuba too. So it

36:59

sounds like years. I don't think this was a new thing.

37:02

Okay. And you know and I'm looking

37:04

at again this intersection

37:06

where his restaurant was at and there

37:09

happens to be just one of

37:11

the buildings at this intersection.

37:14

Today it's Mackage but there

37:16

is a basement level at this location

37:18

whereas the other three corners I'm not

37:20

seeing basement level. So I'm thinking I found the

37:22

location of where this Cuban restaurant

37:25

was at.

37:26

So based on what you're looking at now

37:28

knowing you know how New York works with the basement

37:30

level stores and

37:33

everything else would it be easy

37:36

to have a massive

37:38

fight like they were having and not

37:41

be heard? I guess with bustling Soho

37:43

all around you in shops. I mean it just seems

37:45

like inexplicable to me that this happened at 2

37:48

p.m. on a busy day in a restaurant

37:50

even though it was below ground.

37:52

No I think it would be easy. You

37:54

think about this being down in the basement

37:57

you know the audio aspects there

37:59

is going to be. just a natural muffling

38:01

of any screams the

38:22

carriages being drawn over these

38:25

paved roadways. I

38:27

think it would be very easy to get away

38:30

with the crime down in the basement and

38:33

at least today you know I'm looking at

38:35

where somebody would come up out of that basement

38:37

location you know and they would just

38:39

simply walk out onto the sidewalk

38:42

and blend into the crowd and disappear.

38:44

Well the police now are surprised

38:47

that Antonio is not Antonio but

38:49

they move along operating under

38:52

the assumption that that he is a good

38:54

man as everybody has said around him and

38:56

just sort of putting aside the fact that he had changed

38:58

his identity which again I don't think was nefarious

39:01

I think he just wanted a new identity

39:03

here. So they start

39:05

interviewing more and more witnesses and our witnesses

39:08

get a little more high quality which

39:10

is great and this is where I really do want you to start

39:12

talking about witnesses and their reliability.

39:15

The biggest break in the case so far comes

39:17

from a guy named William Schripper and he

39:20

owned a shop directly across the street

39:22

and he actually goes to the police and

39:25

he has a 15 year old employee named George

39:27

Mann's and George had

39:30

gone to William his boss and said I saw

39:32

something weird and he said he

39:34

saw Antonio chasing

39:37

someone up the restaurant stairs

39:40

and he said that there was

39:42

an altercation which is very violent

39:45

when I describe it to you. It sounds

39:47

like what the police thought had happened

39:49

had happened that this mystery person

39:51

had broken through the door because that's the

39:53

evidence they saw had gone and ransacked

39:55

everything and Antonio

39:58

caught him and then chased him

40:00

up the stairs. Okay? So

40:02

what happens next is

40:05

he described this man as a tall Cuban

40:07

man with a scar on his

40:09

face who was running up the stairs being chased

40:11

by Antonio. And he said

40:14

that the Cuban drew a big knife,

40:16

thrust it into Antonio's breast, and

40:19

then seemed to have difficulty drawing

40:21

it out. Then the Cuban

40:23

ran down to the basement again and Antonio

40:27

turned to follow him but fell headlong

40:29

down the stairs. And then they don't know what happened

40:32

after that.

40:33

The specific details about the long

40:35

knife, and we know we have a 15-inch

40:37

knife that is found in

40:39

the crime scene. So that is a

40:41

detail that I put a lot of weight on. And

40:44

most certainly after a single

40:47

stab wound, the victim could continue

40:49

to function and remain

40:51

conscious. And so if now

40:53

you have the offender running back

40:56

down and Antonio followed

40:58

him after being stabbed and the knife still

41:00

embedded in him, now he's

41:03

easily drug back into his own shop

41:06

and that knife is pulled out and more

41:09

stab wounds are inflicted. I think

41:11

that's the sequence. I think you have the stabbing

41:13

first and then you fundamentally

41:15

have this bludgeoning of some

41:18

sort that is occurring. So right

41:20

now I'm liking that witness statement.

41:23

So here are two things. George is across

41:25

the street. So it says a

41:27

shop directly across the street from

41:30

what's happening at Antonio's

41:32

restaurant. And George says two

41:35

things that he gives information

41:37

to police to help them identify

41:39

this tall Cuban man with the very long

41:42

knife. He says he had a scar

41:44

on his face and he had a unique

41:47

watch chain. How can

41:50

all of that happen and you pick up on those

41:52

two specific details? Does that seem

41:54

odd to you? No. Really? I'm

41:56

looking at the street. Small, huh?

41:58

It is narrow.

41:59

You know, so this isn't

42:02

like a standard, you know,

42:04

big city wide street.

42:08

This street looks like it's about half

42:10

the width of what I

42:12

was expecting to be frank. You

42:14

know, so the witness is reasonably

42:17

close and is remembering

42:20

some specific details that

42:23

could very readily be seen from such

42:25

a close distance. Now, is

42:27

he accurately remembering them? You know, we know

42:30

witnesses, you know, especially during something

42:32

like this, which is like you see it and

42:35

you're shocked, right? Because this isn't

42:37

a normal thing. And

42:39

you're not necessarily paying attention to

42:41

the types of information that

42:43

needs to be conveyed to

42:45

help law enforcement. You are just like

42:48

absorbing what you're seeing. But

42:50

certain aspects, the scar,

42:53

if this offender does have a

42:55

significant scar, just when

42:57

we walk down the street, when we see

43:00

somebody who has that type of deformity,

43:02

it stands out. It's something

43:04

that our eyes just kind of go, oh, you know,

43:07

we see it. And then this watch

43:10

chain, that must be something that was

43:12

somewhat unusual, I imagine,

43:15

and that's why this witness, his eyes

43:17

picked it out. Again, we

43:20

know that there is inaccuracies

43:23

with what witnesses think they saw

43:25

versus what actually occurred. But

43:27

it is something that I would put some

43:29

weight on, like, okay, that's such a weird

43:32

thing to convey. It's such

43:34

a weird thing to make up. Yeah.

43:37

You know, so now I would probably

43:39

put some weight on that.

43:41

Okay. Well, the

43:43

police are saying, oh, shit, okay,

43:45

it's a Cuban guy. So this is 1885 New York. What

43:49

are you going to do when you're going to try to find

43:51

someone? You have a witness who says, yes,

43:53

I think I can identify this tall Cuban

43:55

man with the scar and the big knife. They

43:58

take him on a tour of New York factor. factories

44:00

where all the Cuban workers are. I

44:02

would not say a word if I saw the guy with

44:05

a big scar, but they take him to all these factories

44:07

and he can't identify anybody.

44:10

No shit. I would be scared to death. I

44:12

don't know if I would be able to identify anybody, but he is

44:14

not picking out anyone as

44:16

they are taking him from factory to factory

44:19

to scan the faces of all

44:21

of these guys. What do you think about that technique?

44:24

If that was the culture,

44:27

I guess, if somebody

44:29

was Cuban that they more likely than not

44:31

worked in the factories, I could see

44:34

where there would be value with that. But

44:36

also, one of the things I'm

44:38

wondering would be, well, let's

44:41

post up some undercover officers

44:43

in the blocks around this neighborhood just

44:46

for the next few days and see if we find

44:49

somebody who matches that description with the scar

44:51

on their face just wandering around. This guy

44:53

may be a routine customer of the restaurant

44:56

and lives in the area. So let's

44:58

just have some eyeballs out there and

45:01

see if it's such a distinctive feature

45:04

that there's a chance that you could easily spot

45:06

him. It'd be sort of like today

45:09

we could go to the surveillance videos,

45:12

but back then you use

45:14

these undercover officers as

45:17

your own sort of pseudo video surveillance

45:19

cameras.

45:20

Well, what the New York City Police Department

45:22

decides to do is they really

45:25

talk, frankly, with members of New

45:27

York's Cuban community and say, who

45:29

do you know who could have done something

45:31

like this with this level of violence? We think you're

45:33

all good people. We are not saying

45:36

that this is what all Cubans in New

45:38

York are like, but help us identify

45:40

this guy. The detectives are given a

45:42

group photograph from a Cuban-American

45:46

organization. It sounds like it's a social

45:48

club, but it also sounds a little political

45:51

against communism political. And

45:54

in this photo, there are a lot

45:56

of men. They show it to

45:58

George Manse, the way they do it.

45:59

witness, and he points to one

46:02

guy named Augustine Rebel.

46:05

Now, is that called a six-pack? What is

46:07

that when you're identifying somebody with that kind

46:09

of fun? And that's not a good method, right? Like, okay,

46:12

which one of

46:12

these guys looks most like him? Well,

46:14

it's, yeah, it's not a six-pack.

46:17

For the listeners, the six-pack

46:20

was, and still is in some areas,

46:22

a method in which, let's

46:24

say, a suspect is identified. So,

46:27

a photograph of that suspect, and

46:29

then five other similar-looking

46:31

individuals, or should be similar-looking other individuals,

46:34

are arranged with these six photos,

46:37

one being your suspect, and then the other is

46:39

non-suspects, and then presented

46:42

to the witness. The problem

46:44

with this approach, and you

46:46

kind of mentioned it, is that

46:49

witnesses in this situation, when

46:52

presented with the photos all at once, have

46:54

a tendency to pick out the one

46:57

that looks most similar, but

46:59

not necessarily is the person.

47:02

An improved method, but not infallible,

47:05

is a sequential six-pack, where

47:08

in essence, the witness

47:10

is given one photograph after another,

47:13

and ideally,

47:15

this photo-pack is given to the witness by

47:17

somebody who doesn't even know who the

47:20

actual suspect is in this photo.

47:22

So, there isn't any subconscious

47:25

clues that the witness might key in on,

47:27

whereas an investigator who may be invested

47:29

in saying, I really want this guy to pick out the

47:32

suspect, he kind of leans

47:34

in when the suspect's photo is sequentially

47:36

laid down, and the witness picks up on that. There

47:39

have been improvements in terms of

47:41

how to get witnesses

47:44

to look at suspects and pull the

47:46

suspect out of a photo

47:48

lineup. In this situation,

47:51

you have this group photo, and

47:53

the concern would be, it's sort of like how

47:56

the six-packs have been used, where you just throw

47:58

the six photos in front of the... person and

48:01

it's like he's the most similar but

48:03

is he the one that you remember? Human

48:05

memory is elastic

48:08

and so once the witness sees somebody who

48:10

looks similar it's very possible

48:13

that their memory ends up getting molded

48:16

to now that person is who

48:18

they think they saw when in fact

48:20

it isn't.

48:21

Well let's talk about Augustine who is our suspect.

48:23

He was a cigar factory worker. He did

48:26

have a scar on his face, a very large

48:28

one. He had a violent

48:30

history. He had been convicted

48:32

of assaulting his wife. He served prison

48:35

time, very violent. He had

48:37

the watch chain that the 15

48:40

year old kid had said the killer

48:42

had. George Mantz had also

48:44

described the clothing that the

48:46

tall Cuban man with the scar had been wearing

48:49

and Augustine was even wearing

48:52

the same clothes when they talked to him

48:54

that day that George Mantz

48:56

said the man had been wearing when

48:58

he attacked and killed

49:01

Antonio. So all of this

49:03

is circumstantial but all of it sounds pretty

49:06

good

49:06

so far, right? It definitely does

49:08

sound good. Now it's a

49:10

matter of okay so now

49:12

it comes down to okay so what was Augustine

49:15

doing at the time of the homicide because

49:17

you have a pretty narrow window

49:19

the afternoon in which

49:22

Antonio had been killed. Do we have

49:24

people that have enough independence

49:26

to be able to say that Augustine was at

49:28

work during that time? These

49:31

clothes that are similar to what the 15

49:33

year old said the the offender was wearing?

49:35

Is there any evidence of blood on those clothes?

49:38

You know he starts seeing okay based

49:41

on the circumstances of the case is there something

49:44

that starts adding up on

49:46

Augustine?

49:47

Well funny you should ask about Alibis. So

49:49

he was supposed to be at the cigar factory

49:51

that day. He said I was

49:54

working give me a break. I was

49:56

there look at the books you'll

49:58

see that I had been there so they look at the books

50:00

and it did establish that Augustine

50:03

had made 100 cigars on

50:05

the day that Antonio

50:07

was killed. This seems like this is

50:09

a day's worth of work. So it seems

50:11

kind of locked that he was there, except

50:14

his supervisor said that

50:17

Augustine was really good at making cigars and

50:20

he could have done 100 cigars in half

50:22

a day. And there was no one monitoring

50:25

when he left. He just got the

50:27

work done and they confirmed he did 100 cigars,

50:30

but no one can confirm when he left

50:32

for the day. He just got them done.

50:34

Yeah. And this is where

50:36

really digging into the veracity

50:38

of any alibi becomes important.

50:41

My first question is, is, well, how do they know

50:43

he made 100 cigars that particular

50:45

day? And then, of

50:48

course, we're not dealing with a situation

50:51

where there's going to be video that shows him

50:53

coming and going. So now you're relying on

50:55

witnesses. How many witnesses

50:57

saw him come and go? What are

50:59

their allegiance to him? You

51:02

have people who will cover up. At

51:05

this point, there appears

51:07

to be at least some question as to his

51:09

whereabouts during the afternoon of the

51:11

homicide.

51:12

And then on top of that, how would

51:14

he know Antonio? And the police

51:16

start asking more witnesses. And this is why

51:18

witnesses are the only good thing in this story,

51:21

because we don't have forensics or anything else. And

51:23

they start asking witnesses, and they found

51:26

out that Augustine loaned money

51:28

out to a lot of different people, including

51:31

Antonio. And he

51:33

had not paid back Augustine an

51:36

unknown amount of cash, which is weird

51:38

because Antonio made... I

51:40

sounded like a pretty good living. We don't know enough about

51:43

Antonio's life to know whether

51:45

or not he was gambling or what he was doing.

51:48

We just know the rumor with a lot

51:50

of people, particularly in the Cuban-American community,

51:52

is that Antonio owed his

51:54

killer, most likely, Augustine a lot of money.

51:57

So now we at least have that to know.

52:00

connection and you know, I

52:02

was questioning the anger, the amount of blood,

52:05

but George Mansa's story really does

52:07

kind of solve it. I mean, he walked in

52:09

on somebody. He walked in on this

52:11

guy breaking in and it was a big

52:14

fight and lots of violence and

52:16

blood.

52:16

Yes. Why would Augustine, a factory

52:19

worker, have enough money to loan

52:21

out? What's going on with him?

52:23

You know, between his background

52:25

of violence and his mysterious

52:29

nature, I don't know, but I

52:31

would guess there's probably some illegal activity

52:34

going on maybe with Antonio

52:36

also. Yeah. So is

52:38

Augustine arrested? Is he convicted

52:41

of this case? Nope.

52:42

Because politics. Because

52:45

New York's Cuban American community

52:47

came out in droves. The politicians

52:50

did, the common people did,

52:52

and said that he was being scapegoated

52:54

for being Cuban

52:56

American. The police said, we have

52:58

witnesses who talk about how bad this guy

53:00

is, Augustine, how we

53:02

are sure that he's connected, but when

53:05

they went to the witnesses who were, it sounds

53:07

like part of the Cuban American community, it

53:09

just shut everything down. Nobody would

53:11

testify. They were scared. They were all scared.

53:14

I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if he were connected to a

53:16

mob type situation, you know?

53:18

So I would say, you know, based

53:21

on, you know, you have witness statements, you

53:23

have some circumstantial aspects, but

53:25

the case is weak at best on Augustine.

53:27

Yeah. I'm not even sure there's PC

53:30

there in order to affect an arrest

53:32

today. There would have to be more

53:35

for me to have the confidence that he's

53:37

responsible, but he's in play for sure.

53:39

Yeah.

53:39

I think that this case was interesting

53:42

for me to read through because

53:44

there are a lot of mysterious characters,

53:47

but I like cases where it's sort of

53:49

witness-based, where the story starts

53:51

to unfold, the more people you talk

53:54

to. I think we get a lot of witnesses

53:56

who are not credible, but in this case, we're

53:58

starting to get, with George Floyd, we're And

54:01

you know, these people coming forward, for a man

54:03

who was an immigrant with a very mysterious

54:05

background, people wanted to help

54:08

to an extent. And then when they find

54:10

out that somebody like Augustine is

54:12

involved, who obviously is

54:14

incredibly violent, even

54:17

George Mance, this 15-year-old kid who

54:19

came forward, they were all very scared.

54:22

So it just shows that the whole

54:24

investigation essentially shut down

54:26

once the Cuban-American

54:28

community in 1885 got involved. Or

54:31

maybe he was being railroaded, we don't know. I

54:33

mean, we certainly know people, police in 1885 were

54:36

heavy-handed, to say the least. But

54:39

it's interesting how you have these cultures that are

54:41

sort of coming together to try to help

54:44

a victim, but at the same time also protecting

54:46

probably the offender. I mean, there were a lot

54:48

of connections between this case and

54:51

this guy.

54:51

Yeah. You know, this 15-year-old

54:54

witness, you know, I'm looking at the crime

54:56

scene today, and I've had

54:58

people in the past tell me, you know, it's been

55:00

so long, it's no good to go

55:02

back out because so many things have changed.

55:05

But I'm looking at this very

55:07

old brick structure. It's obviously been

55:10

re-faced, you know, but there's

55:13

a staircase that comes up from the basement-level

55:16

area. I'm not sure if it's another

55:18

shop or storage or what, that,

55:21

you know, right across the street is a very small

55:23

vacant lot that I'm assuming where this 15-year-old

55:26

witness was at, and everything he is

55:28

describing about what he could see, you know,

55:31

with this scar-faced Cuban

55:34

coming up these steps, you know,

55:36

and getting into a confrontation, and then

55:38

watching, you know, a single stab wound

55:41

to the victim, and the victim, you know, collapsing

55:43

and basically going headfirst down the steps,

55:46

it adds up. I completely

55:48

believe, you know, this

55:50

15-year-old could see what he saw based on

55:52

what I'm seeing today and, you

55:56

know, if he is bona

55:58

fide in picking august, out

56:00

of this group photo, they may have at

56:02

least landed on the right guy. It's just unfortunate

56:05

that they weren't able to prosecute.

56:10

Boy, I bet 15-year-old George Mance

56:12

was not sleeping easy after this.

56:14

I mean, he just fingered this

56:17

guy and nothing, it never

56:19

came to fruition. Yeah, this was a hard

56:21

case just because this someone,

56:23

Antonio or Chong Ong or whatever

56:26

we want to call him, was hard-working

56:28

and trying to create a new life and

56:31

seemed really committed. We don't know what was happening in

56:33

the background, but enough people

56:35

came forward where they really wanted to see justice

56:37

and they just didn't have it. It's still officially an unsolved

56:39

case. Wow. So there you go. Welcome

56:41

to New York, Gilded Age New York, Paul. It's

56:44

skeezy and gross. Someday

56:46

I'll take you uptown where all the wealthy people, the

56:48

boss tweeds, live with their

56:51

diamond cufflinks, but I think we're going to be slumming

56:53

it every time we come to 1800s New York from now on.

56:56

Well, we'll

56:58

have to get out there. I'm sure it'll be a fun time.

57:01

Oh yeah. All right. Well, thank you. All

57:03

right. Thanks, Kate.

57:08

This has been an Exactly

57:09

Right production. For our sources

57:11

and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com

57:14

slash buriedbones sources. Our

57:16

senior producer is Alexis Amorosi.

57:18

Research by Maren McClashen, Ali

57:21

Elkin, and Kate Winkler-Dawson. Our

57:23

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57:25

Our theme song is by Tom Breivogel.

57:28

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57:31

produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hart

57:33

Stark, and Daniel Kramer. You can follow

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Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook

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57:38

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57:40

recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

57:42

Age story of murder and the race to decode the criminal

57:45

mind, is available now.

57:47

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57:49

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