0:00

It makes them more attuned to the

0:02

purpose and certainly as a legal professional

0:04

firm. We're trying to help our clients achieve

0:06

their goals and objectives. but to

0:08

help to connect the work that's

0:10

done by every individual regardless of where

0:12

title or what their position, or whether they have a law

0:14

degree or not into what they're, what

0:17

the client's achieving, which could be in some instances

0:19

to help change the world.

1:19

​Before we jump into today's episode, there's something

1:22

I want to share with you. I've launched another podcast.

1:24

The podcast is called Leveraging AI

1:27

And if you like this podcast, you're gonna love

1:29

leveraging AI because it's a very similar

1:31

approach. I interview really smart

1:34

people from the AI world practitioners

1:36

and experts who share how

1:38

to leverage AI in order to grow

1:41

your business and advance your career.

1:43

So pull up your phone right now, whatever

1:45

platform you are using in order to listen to this podcast.

1:48

Search for leveraging ai, check

1:50

it out. I think you'll find it fascinating. There's

1:52

a really fascinating interview with ChatGPT

1:55

as the guest. It's unique

1:58

and different and fun and interesting, and

2:00

we talk about the impact of AI

2:02

technology on businesses and society as

2:04

a whole. So look for leveraging ai.

2:07

And if you enjoy it, subscribe to

2:09

it and also write me a note on

2:11

LinkedIn and let me know what you think. And now to

2:13

the episode Hello and welcome to the Business

2:15

Growth Accelerator. This is Isar Meitis,

2:18

your host, and I've got a special topic for

2:20

you today. As I'm very passionate about

2:22

company culture, and I really think it's one

2:24

of the most critical aspects for

2:26

long-term success of any company.

2:28

You can see short-term success with

2:30

little tricks and gimmicks and stuff and promotions,

2:32

but in the long run, it's the people in

2:35

your business that will make it or break

2:37

it, and having a strong, positive

2:39

company culture. Provides

2:41

that operating system, that, bed

2:44

that you can grow stuff on in

2:47

the long run. Our guest today, Tim Lupinacci

2:49

is the chairman and CEO of Baker

2:51

Donaldson, which is 130 years

2:54

old law firm and one of the largest

2:56

in the nation. And you would assume that somebody

2:58

like that, his biggest passion is law, and

3:01

you'll be wrong. At least I'm guessing. His

3:03

real passion is helping other

3:05

people develop leadership skills in

3:08

developing a healthy work

3:10

environment and a culture that will

3:12

drive people to thrive and grow. And

3:14

that is the secret sauce on how

3:16

to keep on growing such a

3:18

long running company. And

3:21

in today's episode, we're going to dive into,

3:23

first of all, the why is it so

3:25

important and why should think about it as a leader,

3:28

but also the how. What are the actual things

3:31

that team and his team are doing in order to nurture?

3:34

Growing other people and growing leadership

3:36

skills within their organization. I think this

3:38

is immensely critical to

3:40

any company and he, I'm really humbled

3:43

and excited to have Tim as a guest of the show.

3:45

Tim, welcome to the Business Growth

3:47

Accelerator. Yes. Sorry. This is my

3:49

honor to be here. You have, I've already told you, you've added

3:51

a lot of value to me through all of your work,

3:53

in so many different areas. And, this is just

3:55

an honor and I absolutely, I actually

3:57

don't tell my colleagues I could care less about the law.

4:00

I am more passionate about people and culture,

4:03

and helping people achieve their potential. yeah, I'm

4:05

excited to talk about this.

4:07

Awesome. I really appreciate this and I appreciate

4:09

the kind words. Let's start with why.

4:12

Yeah. Why is it critical?

4:14

And if you want, let's go back In your personal

4:17

career, when did you figure

4:19

out that this was so

4:21

important? Like in what time in your career

4:24

did you say, oh my God, the people

4:26

around me, if they would have these

4:28

skills, that's what's gonna make them

4:31

and the company and me more

4:32

successful? Yeah, that's a great question

4:35

and it really does go back. I did not have this

4:37

concept of being a leader and what that meant

4:39

until I was a young lawyer. I didn't

4:41

grow up around lawyers, the profession, my,

4:43

we moved around a lot and didn't know anything about

4:45

it. But I literally almost stumbled into law school.

4:48

I, I was a Mass com major. I

4:50

thought I wanted to do radio and television. and,

4:52

but I took a medial law course and ah, this is

4:54

interesting. and then I took the entrance

4:56

exam for law school and did, okay, so I'll just go

4:58

to law school. And so now I've got my first

5:01

job and it's with a big firm, a

5:03

different firm. And, I've probably been out about

5:05

a year or so and I've viewed it very much

5:07

as a transactional type deal. Yeah. Like I

5:09

got a project to get done, I turned

5:11

it in. And then I went on to bill time

5:13

for the next project. and so I had, and

5:16

I had a very tough boss. He was a yeller.

5:18

and, and, but and I was excited

5:20

to be working with him cuz he was an expert. I did bankruptcy

5:23

work, he did ex, he was an expert in that field.

5:25

anyway, we had a large project that we were working on.

5:27

I had a small part of it that I then got

5:29

finished and handed it to a lawyer who'd

5:32

been at the firm five or six years. a middle level

5:34

guy. and then he'd finished it, turned

5:36

it into the boss, and I'm onto the next

5:38

project. And next thing I know, I'm getting paged

5:41

into our boss's office, the other guy

5:43

and myself. And he's, we walk in,

5:45

he is on a conference call with a dozen lawyers.

5:47

It turned out other lawyers from other firms.

5:49

and He starts yelling at us that we

5:51

had gotten the project completely wrong. And

5:54

then he said, these idiots are gonna

5:56

stay here all night to get this fixed.

5:58

Now I don't, that's not good leadership. and he

6:00

ultimately, he changed. But,

6:02

and I thought, I'm gonna lose my job, whatever.

6:04

And so we spent, we got it all fixed

6:07

and it turned out I had drawn the short straw. I was

6:09

picking up my boss at his house the next

6:11

morning to drive to court for what all

6:13

this stuff the project was about.

6:16

And I thought, I literally, I was, am I gonna have a job

6:18

by the time we get back from this hearing? And

6:20

it was very quiet, awkward silence.

6:22

And then he did. Start out

6:24

and said he apologized that he shouldn't

6:27

have yelled in front of other lawyers. He

6:29

wasn't so much worried about the terminology

6:31

he used, but he said I should have kept it in the house.

6:33

but but then he said, the reason I'm so disappointed

6:36

and was so aggravated, Tim is cuz I view you

6:38

as a leader. I think you've got a long, successful

6:40

career ahead of you. I don't necessarily

6:42

think that about the mid-level lawyer

6:45

that was on that project. I just expect

6:47

you to own what you have and

6:49

what your part of the project is and make

6:51

sure. Sure it's right, because you're a leader. And

6:53

that really was the first time that ever clicked that I'm

6:56

a leader. I'm just a young low

6:59

person on the totem pole. I had

7:01

skills, but I didn't think of myself as a leader. So that

7:03

lit literally led me on a lifelong journey.

7:05

I've gotta get better at this. If I'm a leader, I gotta know

7:07

what does that mean? And I, it really just led me on my

7:10

journey about why now I'm so passionate about

7:12

it. So that's the start of it.

7:14

That's a great story. so really, okay, let's turn

7:16

into the why. Yeah. Why should

7:18

people in leadership positions care about

7:20

developing other leaders around

7:22

them?

7:23

Yeah. and that's really what my passion is because

7:25

first of all, it's helping folks understand

7:28

the mindset that everybody is a leader. So first

7:30

of it, the why is to have belief in

7:32

themselves and have confidence in themselves that

7:34

it's, you don't need a title, you don't need to run

7:36

a big organization that you can lead right

7:38

where you are. And that it's gonna really help,

7:41

fuel your passion and your purpose

7:43

and what you're doing. I talk a lot about,

7:45

and we've actually implemented some stuff here at the firm

7:47

about, your pathway. People

7:49

are gonna have different pathways to what they view as success.

7:52

And some do look at a job as it's a paycheck

7:55

to get to do other things. But while

7:57

you're here, if you can, if we can

7:59

really get our colleagues saying I want

8:01

to have some career ambition to maybe,

8:03

lead a bigger team or move up this or

8:05

get this skill, I think it just makes,

8:07

our colleagues more engaged. It makes them more

8:10

attuned to the purpose and certainly as a

8:12

legal professional firm. We're trying to help

8:14

our clients achieve their goals and objectives.

8:17

but to help to connect the

8:19

work that's done by every individual regardless

8:21

of where title or what their position, or whether

8:23

they have a law degree or not into what they're, what

8:26

the client's achieving, which could be in some instances

8:28

to help change the world. I think it just helps 'em become

8:30

more engaged, more passionate, and

8:32

to deliver better client service to our clients and

8:35

it can be a real differentiator. So

8:37

those are some of the why's that drive me

8:39

and like I said earlier, I really am passionate about

8:41

people and helping them really.

8:43

Have confidence and see and speak

8:45

into them like they can accomplish some things.

8:47

not in a, hey, everything's

8:49

utopia. It's a sh, bright, shiny world.

8:52

Everything, cuz we have challenges and all that.

8:54

But just to, just have confidence that we can do more

8:56

in what we're trying to accomplish. So that's

8:58

just some things about why it drives me and why I've

9:00

seen it work with our firm.

9:04

Yeah. I think what you're saying make a lot of sense. I think

9:06

you touched on two very big points. One is

9:08

confidence, right? It's yeah, I trust you.

9:11

to do this because I know you can own

9:14

the thing that, that I expect you to do.

9:16

And the other is really tying it to

9:19

a bigger goal, right?

9:21

So part of leadership

9:24

is if I'm just a note taker,

9:26

okay, I, this is what I do, right? This is my

9:28

world ends in my little task, whatever

9:30

that task is. Big or small. Yeah. But

9:33

if you're part of a leadership, okay, why

9:35

are we doing this? We are doing this too.

9:38

So like you said, I could be a note taker,

9:40

but if me taking notes helps that

9:43

other company achieve their

9:45

thing, which like you say, could be saving,

9:47

solving world hang hunger, right? Then

9:49

I play a role in that bigger thing,

9:51

which makes the thing that I do a lot more important, and I

9:54

love those points.

9:56

Oh yeah. a great example is, I talk, I thought

9:58

one of our, we have a woman who's in our Baltimore

10:00

office who, her title's receptionist,

10:03

but Nicole owns that,

10:05

not only the reception area, but

10:07

if she sees issues, she hears that something

10:09

has to get done, something else. That's not her job.

10:12

She just step, nobody asks her to do it. She steps

10:14

up and gets it done. She owns it, like you were saying,

10:16

Essar and. That may help,

10:19

a big strategy meeting that she doesn't even know about

10:21

that could impact something. And she's one of the best leaders

10:23

I've ever seen best leaders at our firm. and

10:25

by doing that in ownership, she actually has

10:28

now elevated her title. She's moved on to do

10:30

a little bit bigger task because, and she wasn't

10:32

seeking that. She doesn't think about it. She just does

10:34

it. So yeah, I totally agree with

10:36

you. Interesting.

10:38

So let's move to the how, right? Yeah. So

10:41

I think most people will understand even.

10:44

Without diving into the details, they understand there's a

10:46

benefit in that the how

10:49

makes it difficult, and that's why not enough companies

10:51

do that because there's, what

10:53

do you actually do to make FIFA people feel

10:56

that they're leaders? What do you help

10:59

them do that will drive them personally

11:01

to be

11:01

passionate about it? Yeah, so

11:03

we've done several things. I've been in this role four years,

11:06

four and a half years, and I had a, about a six month

11:08

transition before I took over. And

11:10

one of the first things I did when we had a virtual town

11:12

hall to introduce me to the firm, I knew a lot

11:15

of people, but not certainly everyone. I

11:17

started out the same, my view

11:19

that everyone of them was a leader and we needed everyone,

11:22

stepping up and working together that

11:24

every person was valued and valuable.

11:27

So one of it was just speaking that into 'em. But then

11:29

one of the first things I did is I want to hear from you

11:31

to know how we can get better. We had really struggled

11:33

and plateaued for a while as a firm, so

11:35

we needed to get better. And I encouraged

11:38

them to give me feedback. and

11:40

I did, I went around and visited all our 20 offices

11:42

and we had town halls and people give me feedback. And then important

11:45

thing was that I listened to it. And

11:47

then on some of 'em, I executed on it. I can't

11:49

do everything and everything wasn't a great idea,

11:52

but there was some low hanging fruit from our folks

11:54

who were in the trenches. so that was

11:56

just trying to instill, that,

11:59

again, I like that word trust. That's really important,

12:01

that trust in them that I trusted them. I

12:03

wanted to learn how to get better. So that was some of the first

12:05

part. But then I really did need to build out. I

12:08

could talk about pathways to success,

12:10

and pathways in your career and

12:13

driving purpose, but that's just words on a page.

12:15

And the first couple years we've built out some,

12:17

training, some skill building we were doing internally,

12:20

and really called it like pathways. Like how,

12:22

what are your desires, what are your career ambitions?

12:25

And what are some skills that maybe you don't have those

12:27

skills, we can help you get better. And really try to get

12:29

managers to really get to know. their

12:32

colleagues, their strengths, the areas they wanted

12:34

to improve, and then facilitate

12:36

that to some regular training. And we, we do

12:38

it virtually. we do some in person.

12:41

so that was the first couple years we just really trying to get

12:43

some meat around it and then, We

12:45

did launch a vision.

12:46

I wanna pause you. I wanna pause you just for one second.

12:48

Yeah, sorry. So basically what you're saying, you're taking

12:51

a strategic approach that we usually apply

12:53

for the business looking outside

12:56

to the inside of the business, meaning, For

12:58

each individual offer, let's say types

13:00

of individuals and saying, okay, you're here on

13:03

point A, you want to get

13:05

to point B again, very similar to the way you

13:07

would do with a company in five years. You want to be there.

13:10

What needs to happen for you to be there? So in

13:12

year one, you gotta accomplish this and that what

13:15

resources in a company or skills you're

13:17

missing in an individual. Here's the training

13:19

that can get you there. And I love that. It's really a

13:22

very strategic approach to how to

13:24

elevate people through

13:26

the path that they chose, which I think is.

13:29

More important than anything. Because okay. I

13:32

don't, some people don't wanna manage the department.

13:34

That's right. What they seek, they really,

13:36

if I use your company, they really going to

13:38

court and fighting justice, right? They don't

13:40

care about running 20 other people. And

13:42

so you gotta understand for each

13:45

person and then giving them the tools to

13:47

progress in their own path.

13:49

And I absolutely love that.

13:51

Yeah. and I appreciate that and I also, it's not

13:53

easy either, right? there's some. Job

13:55

titles. Some roles that it like in,

13:57

in the legal profession for individuals

14:00

who have law degrees, you come in and

14:02

most firms start, you have an associate and

14:04

then some firms, you become a senior associate

14:07

after six or eight years. And then you could become

14:09

a partner or shareholder. And then

14:11

it's the equity partner, equity shareholder. it's a path

14:13

that's pretty well there. Expectations,

14:16

different companies you're gonna, but it was harder

14:18

on our business services staff side.

14:20

And even initially, our HR director

14:22

was like, Yeah, but it

14:25

is a pretty flat organization on a lot

14:27

of our things. How can we do it? I don't want to come off

14:29

and say, oh, this is easy, just go do it. It was really just

14:31

understanding and then sitting down with

14:33

some folks in the, in that cohort,

14:35

the business services staff, what are some things

14:37

that would be helpful? What would you think about? and

14:40

but I think it's just the intentionality to

14:42

spend the time and listen. And try

14:44

to build it out just cuz it's, it may be harder

14:46

than some areas like the law, the lawyers,

14:48

it's pretty clear. we have to skill build for

14:50

them and we have to help them and equip them.

14:53

but, so anyway, that's. No,

14:55

it's good stuff. What was that? Sorry I stopped you before

14:57

that in the middle to go into

14:58

the next point. no. it's because, it's interesting

15:00

cause that was some of the foundation and then, last year I

15:02

launched a strategic vision for the firm

15:04

and, with our firm. We're pretty much

15:06

situated in the southeast Mid-Atlantic. And

15:09

when I was looking, talking to colleagues

15:11

about longer term strategic planning, invariably.

15:14

It would get into this discussion about geography,

15:16

should we be national? Should we do this?

15:19

And then we have some individuals who do have

15:21

more of a national practice and some are more

15:23

local practice. And of course they're saying, oh, we

15:25

should be more national or we should be more regional.

15:28

And it was just divisive. And so I really,

15:30

I got all this feedback, and I went

15:32

away for a couple days. I just know there's invaluable

15:34

to just get away from everything because I had all the

15:36

knowledge I needed. there's nothing new under the sun,

15:38

but it's really what's best for us. And I landed

15:41

on this idea. And again, this is

15:43

not new. It's been written about for decades,

15:45

about being trusted advisors and I thought if

15:47

we could become better trusted advisors

15:49

to our clients, and you have to unpack what that

15:51

means, that we would do better

15:53

in client service. We could grow stickier client

15:56

relationships. We would be more strategic

15:58

in our advice instead of just reactive.

16:00

and then the one thing that connected back

16:02

to particularly the business services and staff, it's

16:04

something that it would applaud it. The whole firm, it

16:06

would be very inclusive because our staff

16:09

have to be trusted advisors to the lawyers,

16:11

to the professionals, and they can build that

16:13

relationship every day. So that kind of

16:15

became the foundation of the strategy.

16:18

And again, this idea that it can't

16:20

just be words on the page. I had to build some

16:22

ways to help folks really make this meaningful.

16:25

And people joke with me about this term,

16:28

terminology and I know people who have earned

16:30

an actual M B A. It is very serious stuff.

16:33

You're very, that's amazing. But I

16:35

just came up with a trusted advisor, mini MBA

16:37

program for our firm.

16:39

And not just for the lawyers, but also for the staff.

16:41

And we have different tracks where you can

16:43

earn credits and get some rewards. but

16:46

it's all with serious training about some of the skill

16:48

building on relationships and how can we build

16:50

trust and that kind of stuff. All the basic, so again,

16:52

it's, I think it's just trying to be creative and

16:55

take something that can engage your

16:57

colleagues in something meaningful

16:59

and they can make progress. They can see they're making progress.

17:02

I love that. I want to touch on something similar

17:04

that we did at the company I was in, few

17:06

years ago. I was part of the leadership team

17:08

in a large travel organization, and

17:11

we had not exactly

17:13

the same issues, but it got down to the same thing. We

17:15

couldn't hire fast enough for the growth, right? We could

17:17

have. and we just didn't

17:19

know what to do. and what we ended up doing is we

17:22

built our own academy, like literally actual

17:24

facility, buildings, classes, computers,

17:27

conference rooms, the whole thing.

17:29

That's awesome. And a curriculum that

17:31

we could take people and

17:34

teach them the right way of

17:36

doing things. And for, in our case, was

17:39

how to develop relationships

17:41

and write the right contracts and grow

17:43

their little niche of the business. That

17:45

was one half. The other half is the stuff you're talking about.

17:47

How do you own your business? You

17:50

are right, your own c e

17:52

o, right? Yeah. And yet you're running yourself

17:54

and an assistant, but you're a business

17:56

unit. You're a very small business unit. It's

17:59

a billion plus dollar company, and you're

18:01

running $1.7 million.

18:04

But you're running 1.7 million, which is

18:06

more than the vast majority of people on the planet,

18:09

right? And so you better know how to run it. So

18:12

I think it's so important to understand

18:15

that most people, I'm now quoting,

18:17

a friend of mine who is also a really smart

18:19

business consultant that says, I

18:22

don't know a single person that goes to work

18:24

in the morning and says, I really wanna suck

18:26

today. Most people

18:29

go to work saying, I want to do

18:31

something good today. And

18:33

most of the cases when they don't do that, it's either

18:35

because they don't have the right training or

18:37

the right tools or both, right?

18:40

Which means it's on us business

18:42

leaders to make sure they have the right

18:44

training and the right tools so they can do the

18:46

right things at work. So I love the whole

18:48

training setup of it. I just have an interesting question

18:51

for people who are considering this. Who

18:53

built the curriculum, the training, like

18:55

what was the actual process? Because there's people

18:58

have jobs in the company and they're not to

19:00

develop and deliver training curriculum.

19:02

and it's, and it is inter That's a really great question,

19:04

sorry. And I did not fully, appreciate.

19:08

How much that would take to build that out because,

19:11

I, we had a, all of our attorneys

19:13

got together for a retreat to launch the vision

19:15

last year, and then we did follow on town halls

19:17

with all our staff, and that was like, say April.

19:20

And of course I'm like, and we're gonna help you

19:22

and we're gonna have this trusted advisor

19:24

mini b a and it's gonna kick off this fall. And

19:27

then it's oh wait, we have to actually, put

19:30

words, get, put action behind it. And we

19:32

have, we have a professional development, direct

19:34

director, but really it's not focused

19:36

on things like this. It's been more just basic

19:38

kind of things. And so literally, my

19:40

chief of staff and I just started. and

19:43

our chief administrative officer started building

19:45

out like, what could this look like? And we just have to

19:47

get it started. not the whole arc

19:50

of, cuz I love your academy. I think that

19:52

is brilliant. And we did not, we knew we weren't

19:54

gonna have that ready and baked for the

19:56

fall, but we really started saying, okay,

19:58

let's break this into three tracks. One was

20:00

for the. The shareholder, the partner

20:02

level attorneys, and we made those

20:04

in person with outside consultants.

20:06

People they'd get to fly into a city for an afternoon

20:09

and the next morning and then fly home. then

20:11

we had training for the younger lawyers and

20:13

our paralegals that next level. And

20:16

that was more virtual, but it was live virtual. Yeah.

20:18

and with follow on and with activities

20:21

and we're doing it over the months of the fall. And then

20:23

for staff and business services, we actually had

20:25

in-person activities and training

20:28

in each. Office around the firm by

20:30

different leaders, and we built out the

20:32

curriculum, really built around that

20:34

macer book about trusted advisors, but

20:36

just using some of the trust equation, basic

20:39

stuff. But after we got it launched

20:41

and we had a lot of good feedback for the fall and from

20:43

the fall, and even some things we could do better, which we've

20:45

learned from. But it became clear to us we

20:47

have to get a professional to help us. So we actually

20:49

have now hired a talent, a director of talent development,

20:52

and she had a lot of expertise in this and

20:54

she's now building out, we're doing some

20:56

stuff in the spring, but she's really building out almost

20:58

like your academy type concept. So

21:01

absolutely agree. It takes a lot of work and effort

21:03

and we've realized we needed a professional to help us internally

21:06

to do it.

21:08

So I love everything you're saying. I want to drill

21:10

one layer deeper. Yeah. What's.

21:13

In the curriculum, what are the things

21:16

categories, right? Obviously we're not gonna teach the course

21:18

now, but what are the big bullet

21:21

points that you teach people

21:24

in order for them to understand

21:28

or how to become a trusted

21:30

advisor? How to actually build

21:34

trust with somebody to the level

21:36

they will give you any task that

21:38

they think you can accomplish. Which is,

21:40

like you're saying, you wanna do this in-house as well as towards

21:42

your

21:43

clients. Yeah. and that was really the

21:45

whole, vision about being trusted advisor

21:47

was because that's what the clients are asking for. there's

21:49

all these resource, all these, surveys in the

21:51

legal industry that, you know, Buyers

21:54

of legal services, the general councils and city,

21:56

they're looking for people who know their industry,

21:58

who know their business and are providing

22:01

strategic advice. the world's much more complex

22:03

than it was yesterday, than it was last

22:05

year. just as we've, talked about, for our shareholder

22:08

level, we've really spent a lot of time building,

22:10

training around confidence. and,

22:12

and like we're, cuz we're thinking like, how do we play up

22:14

into the bigger relationships, the deeper

22:16

relationships, confidence and communication,

22:19

business acumen, how do you translate

22:21

legal principles into business

22:24

strategy? Not because you've got

22:26

a project you're working on, but to really help identify

22:29

risks, that clients could be facing

22:31

because you know their industry. So we

22:33

really focused it a lot about that client

22:35

communication, relationship building, understanding

22:37

industries. How do you do that? for

22:40

the younger lawyers, it really was more

22:42

built into. Things like

22:44

networking and also effective

22:46

communication and relationship building.

22:49

and at the very early levels, like I came into

22:51

working at a law firm, I didn't know anybody in the

22:53

city I'm in. I didn't know anything. So

22:55

it's really like, how do, what do you do? you

22:57

can't just say, go develop business. cause the.

23:00

Particular profession, at least our firm, you're

23:02

not going out and just doing cold call sales stuff.

23:04

Although some firms do that's fine. That just

23:06

hadn't been our culture. so we're just trying to help with that.

23:08

And then with business services and staff,

23:10

we really did take apart this

23:12

trust equation. But how can you build trust? How

23:14

can you own projects? how can

23:16

you, give feedback? So it's very specifically

23:19

tailored to what we have, we're really trying to accomplish.

23:22

And now we're. Like looking at the 2.0

23:25

of that, it's really more refining it,

23:27

in the different areas. So I

23:29

love this. So

23:30

if we go back and break this, the

23:35

logic is obvious, right? The why we covered,

23:37

right? But then the how is more

23:40

of a view of, I

23:43

always like the FRO two. equation,

23:45

and I think it's, Jim Collins came up with

23:47

the FRO two, yes equation. Like

23:49

you, you wanna go from where

23:52

you are right now to where you want to go,

23:55

and that's the first thing you gotta define. And I love

23:57

the way you define it. It's not the same for everybody

23:59

in the company. There's different fro twos

24:01

for different people, depending on the role, depending

24:04

on their level, depending on their experience and their seniority,

24:06

et cetera. So if you break it out into bucket

24:09

and say, okay, for this bucket, this

24:11

is the FRO two, the second bucket, this is

24:13

it. Once you map that,

24:15

now you can actually start

24:18

defining what are the steps, how many hours,

24:20

what's the physical location like, all these kind of

24:22

things to get the best outcome. So

24:24

I love all of this. And then you said something that is. Maybe

24:27

the most important thing is then

24:29

get feedback and do it again. Oh. And get more feedback

24:31

and do it again, because I can get, I

24:33

think the biggest fear people have is I don't get it

24:35

right. It'll be such a huge waste of resources,

24:38

time, money, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, yeah,

24:40

that you, I can guarantee you are not gonna get it

24:42

right in. Or in the first time around. But

24:44

if you don't do the first and second time, that's gonna be

24:46

not great. And then the second one's gonna be okay, and

24:48

then the third one's gonna be good. And then the fourth

24:50

one's gonna be, oh my God, this was excellent. You will never

24:53

get to the excellent one if you don't do the first one,

24:55

it's gonna be okay.

24:56

Yeah, no, I totally agree. And it's really

24:58

challenging. I, most people like this, but certainly

25:00

lawyers are on the end of the spectrum about they

25:03

gotta know more than everyone in the room. Or at least they think

25:05

they know more than everything in the room and they, it's

25:08

gotta, they don't wanna mess up. You don't wanna make mistakes.

25:11

Yeah. but that's how you learn. That's how you get better.

25:13

And it's funny you say that cuz one of our in-person

25:16

training sessions we did last fall, I was just on

25:18

a call with, the individual. So

25:20

professor at, Northwestern and

25:22

with our new talent development director and we

25:24

were talking about like his next program

25:26

and we were very specific talking about, this is some of the

25:28

feedback, this really. Hit

25:30

home. This was, some things didn't

25:33

really connect. How can we build this going

25:35

forward? so I absolutely think that's critical.

25:38

and I also agree the

25:40

here to there, the from too, or, how

25:42

do we get from here to there? You've gotta paint that vision

25:44

of the, there, the outcome you want, and then back

25:46

it up. And so we are, now that we

25:49

are, really. More than just getting it launched.

25:51

We're thinking about like in the context of

25:53

training, like the level 1 0

25:55

1 course and 2 0 1 and 3 0 1.

25:57

you, but there will be a stepping stone approach

25:59

to get to the outcome

26:01

we want. and so we're really trying to be intentional

26:03

about that. So I totally agree. I think you're spot on with

26:05

what you said. Isar, I gotta

26:08

ask

26:08

you Yeah. One more follow up question that I'm very

26:10

curious about. Yeah. What's

26:12

the tangible outcomes

26:15

you can actually measure? Yeah,

26:17

because you started almost a year ago, right?

26:20

do you already see stuff you're

26:22

saying, oh, I can see this,

26:24

and this happening in this sector of

26:26

the company. And

26:28

it's obviously a direct outcome

26:30

of the effort that we put in. Yeah.

26:32

Yeah. and you're, you. That's another obviously

26:34

great important, very important leadership

26:37

principle that, we launched a strategy, but again,

26:39

it's just words on the paper. I wanna be held accountable.

26:41

So I put some very specific measures. and

26:43

the three big ones, as it relates to your question

26:46

that we did, we were, we want to increase

26:48

the number of what we call our strategic clients, which

26:50

are really clients where we do business

26:52

in more than one, just one business area.

26:55

So we had a definition of what that means. we

26:57

wanted to improve our brand awareness

26:59

in the industry and we wanted to improve

27:02

our employee engagement. And we had some financial

27:04

metrics and we actually. Last

27:06

year was a record year. And of course I'm tying connecting

27:08

it back to the people doing. I think people taking

27:11

some of these steps is translating,

27:13

you, it's hard to always connect the dots, but

27:15

to see, look, we tell you to do this, y'all are doing

27:18

it, you're bought in. And now we're driving financial

27:20

performance. That's great. But on those other three

27:22

targets, at least in the first, nine months to

27:24

12 months of this, we just, got

27:27

our latest, employee engagement surveys

27:29

up and we were up in every category. and,

27:31

still areas for improvement. but they were all,

27:34

75% or above were

27:36

positive or, whatever the top two

27:38

categories of a five point scale. So we've

27:41

made improvement over year, our brand

27:43

awareness. We have an external source that

27:45

does brand awareness and it's not. What

27:47

do you think about Baker Donaldson? It's really just talking

27:49

to buyers of legal services. Who do you use

27:51

and trust? So it's more of a, yeah. and we

27:53

increase that by, from like the

27:56

80th best brand in the legal market to

27:58

68, something like that, year over

28:00

year. and then we have. Incrementally

28:03

moved. It's like from 12% to 12.5%

28:05

of strategic clients, after the, but it's at

28:07

least it's going the right direction. Yeah. And this year

28:10

is really a big focus on what that means

28:12

and how to do it. So all that to say, we absolutely put

28:14

measures in that. We think it's

28:17

always hard with the lead measures, lag measures.

28:19

But we tried to put some things out there that

28:21

we thought, if this is happening,

28:23

we can tie it back to some of the stuff we're doing.

28:26

so far, so good. It's been a good first year.

28:29

I love that. I, and I love your point about

28:31

leading indicators versus lagging indicators.

28:33

Yeah. And you've gotta be very careful with what you measure

28:36

and when you measure it. For us, again, going back

28:38

to the academy example, yeah. In the beginning

28:41

it creates sometimes more noise

28:43

than good. Cuz the people who go

28:45

through the academy now has a different kind

28:47

of knowledge and a different focus and suddenly people who

28:49

didn't. And that creates friction

28:51

within the company. But what happened was,

28:54

Is that within three

28:57

to four years, most

29:00

of middle management, most of

29:02

middle management were people who went through the academy.

29:05

Got, and that was a game changer. And

29:07

the crazy thing is since then, that company has been

29:09

acquired and it's been through a

29:11

merger and it's been, and still a lot

29:13

of people in the middle management in the new unified

29:16

company, these people who've been through the academy

29:18

10 years ago. that's great. and that proves the

29:20

point that. In

29:23

the long run. Going back to what I said in the beginning, and

29:25

I swear I didn't plan this, but we went full

29:27

circle in the long run. If

29:29

you invest in these kind of things, yeah, it

29:32

works. And like you said, sometimes

29:34

you can see immediate

29:36

outcome. Sometimes you, sometimes

29:39

your, even your employee engagement survey will

29:41

show you negative results because people

29:44

are in that change process and people don't

29:46

like change. And But if you trust

29:48

the process and you're really figuring

29:51

out a better capabilities,

29:53

better skills, better mindsets, better

29:55

culture, better everything

29:58

for your employees, in the long run, it

30:00

will pay off.

30:01

you've, we could unpack this for hours because

30:03

the whole change management piece is

30:05

really important. Cause as you said, even like with

30:07

a law firm, it's been done generally the

30:09

same way for a hundred year, a hundred years, But to

30:12

have that pivot to, I talk about thinking

30:14

about our firm as a best run business,

30:16

like our clients. Think about it. And that

30:18

has heightened expectations, right? Of re

30:21

I've gotta show you the return on investment

30:23

that I'm investing in this mini

30:25

M B a, but what's the return

30:27

and what's the expectation and the accountability.

30:29

And so it is, it does go,

30:32

it does tie, hand in glove, I think to

30:34

exactly what you're saying with the academy. Like you had to

30:36

get folks bought in. That

30:38

this is meaningful and you had to spend the money

30:40

to build it out without maybe seeing

30:42

the results immediately. but that's, but now

30:44

you look back years later and you can have

30:47

the satisfaction that it made the difference in people's

30:49

lives, right? Yeah. Yeah.

30:52

Tim, fascinating conversation.

30:54

Oh yeah. I really thank you. This was, oh, Very

30:56

eye-opening. I think you're doing really

30:59

important stuff, and again, you're seeing the results,

31:01

but anybody out there who's considering this, there

31:03

were a lot of great tips from Tim on,

31:05

on how to think about it, how to execute

31:08

on it, little steps along the

31:10

way. Tim, if people wanna follow you

31:12

to know more and what you're doing and how you're doing it, if they

31:14

wanna work with a law firm, like what's the best way to connect

31:16

with you, follow you, and so on.

31:18

Sure. Yeah. I am on Instagram with my name and

31:20

then, the firm is Baker Donaldson, b

31:22

a k e r d o n e

31:24

l s o n.com,

31:26

which you can find me there. And then I did launch

31:29

earlier this year, a nonprofit called

31:31

Everybody leads.org. and

31:33

that website is up and they'll have content about

31:35

leadership. That whole approach of what I'm trying

31:37

to do there is take some of these basic leadership

31:40

skills into underserved communities, but

31:42

I am putting content. And workbooks

31:44

and things like that up there as we build it out.

31:46

So that would be another place to check and certainly can

31:48

contact me through that website as well.

31:51

Fantastic. Thank you so much. This was

31:53

really great. I appreciate your time. Enjoy

31:55

the long weekend.

31:56

Yes, you too. Thank you. I really did

31:58

enjoy this as well. Isar, keep doing what you're

32:00

doing. You're doing good work, man. Thank you.