0:00

Being so passionate about the

0:02

cases and the stories that I'm

0:04

talking about also keeps

0:07

me motivated . It's so much easier

0:09

to stay motivated and to keep

0:12

to a consistent

0:14

schedule when you're passionate about

0:16

what you're talking about . ["courtney Fretwell"]

0:18

.

0:23

Hi everybody . Today I have Courtney

0:25

Fretwell . She is the host

0:28

of Forensic Tales . It's a weekly

0:30

podcast about forensic science

0:32

and it's just a really awesome true

0:35

crime podcast . And we

0:37

connected over email talking about monetization

0:40

, going full time with your podcast , and

0:42

so I'm really excited to bring her onto the podcast

0:44

. Courtney , thank you so much for being here .

0:46

Yeah , thank you so much for having me . I'm super excited

0:49

.

0:50

So could you walk us through a little

0:52

bit of your history and what brought

0:54

you to being a podcaster ?

0:56

Yeah , so I've been a podcast

0:58

listener for several

1:01

years . Podcasts really came into my

1:03

life when I got into

1:05

actually endurance sports running

1:08

marathons and doing Iron Man's and

1:10

I just got kind of sick of listening to music

1:12

on replay and jumped into

1:14

listening to podcasts . I've

1:17

always been a huge true crime

1:19

fan , so I kind of gravitated

1:21

towards the true crime genre and

1:24

, yeah , started listening to podcasts during

1:27

training runs and long training rides and

1:30

after a couple years of listening I

1:32

decided , hey , why can't I start

1:34

my own show and

1:37

start my own podcast In an area

1:39

, of course , which is just true crime and

1:41

forensic science my number one passion . So

1:43

, yeah , that's kind of

1:45

how it got started .

1:46

And do you actually have a background in forensic

1:49

science ? That's what you went to school

1:51

for .

1:52

Yeah , I do so . I've got

1:54

a master's degree from Arizona State University

1:57

in forensic psychology

1:59

, so I have a background

2:02

in studying violent

2:04

crimes , mass shootings , death

2:06

penalty and prior

2:09

to being a podcast host , I also

2:11

worked in our local criminal justice

2:13

system here .

2:14

So tell me , how did

2:16

you make this transition to

2:18

getting into podcasting ? A lot of people

2:20

start I

2:22

also listen to a ton of podcasts on runs

2:25

and you start listening to podcasts

2:27

and you really enjoy it , and then you

2:29

start thinking , well , what if I want to be on the other

2:31

side of the mic ? How did you make

2:33

that transition ?

2:34

Yeah , I think I made that transition

2:37

when I was listening to shows

2:39

and I thought

2:41

, wow , this episode would be really

2:43

great or the show would be really great if they

2:45

incorporated this aspect

2:48

into their show . And again

2:50

, for me it was mostly true crime shows

2:52

and I thought , gosh , it'd be cool

2:54

if they could discuss the psychology

2:57

behind that offender or

2:59

that victim . And for

3:01

me it was like , ok , if I got

3:03

on the other side of the mic and had my own show

3:06

. I wanted to bring those elements

3:08

that I thought other

3:10

shows did it differently and I thought I

3:13

thought it'd be really great if I could cover different aspects

3:15

to a case .

3:17

I love it , and so was there a moment

3:19

that you decided I'm

3:21

ready to do it . I'm ready to jump in . Did you

3:23

have any hesitation doing it ?

3:25

Yeah , I think it's natural to have some

3:28

hesitation about putting yourself

3:32

out there to have your voice heard , and

3:36

I think it's definitely scary to

3:38

be vulnerable and to

3:40

put your creativity out there . So I definitely

3:42

in the beginning had my moments

3:46

of self-doubt , but I really

3:48

relied on

3:50

getting support from my fiancee

3:53

and really close friends and family . That told

3:55

me no , you can do this , you can be on the other side

3:57

of the mic , you can let your voice be heard . So

3:59

once you get over that initial fear , it's

4:01

worth it .

4:03

I read a profile about you where you told

4:06

a story of how Tony , I think , is

4:08

your fiancee's name kind of

4:10

pushed you over the edge to starting the podcast

4:12

. Would you share that with us , because I loved it . It

4:14

was just like incredibly kind .

4:16

Yeah , I had talked about

4:18

starting my own podcast probably

4:21

for months and I think he just eventually

4:23

, in the most

4:25

loving way possible , kind of got sick of

4:27

hearing me talk about OK , you want to start

4:29

this true crime podcast , when

4:31

are you going to launch it ? And he

4:34

really was the catapult in the beginning

4:36

. He signed me up for a

4:38

podcast kind of startup

4:40

course that really laid out

4:42

all of the foundation to get me started from

4:45

0 to 100 . And he

4:47

bought it for me as a Christmas present and said hey

4:49

, here you go , we're starting this podcast

4:52

.

4:52

That's incredible . So when did you

4:55

first start your podcast ? In January

4:57

2020? .

4:58

Yes , yes .

4:59

And pretty quickly you

5:01

decide to kind of take it a little bit

5:04

deeper . Do you want to tell the story of just

5:06

kind of transitioning from being

5:08

a part-time podcaster to taking it

5:10

full time ?

5:11

Yeah , so Forensic Tales launched in

5:13

January of 2020 . And

5:16

it was at a time where I was juggling

5:18

doing the weekly podcast

5:20

and then also juggling my full-time career

5:22

at

5:26

the court , which is difficult to

5:28

balance all of that , of course . I

5:31

made the transition in

5:34

July of 2020

5:36

. I decided to leave my

5:38

full-time job at the court and

5:41

pursue podcasting full-time

5:43

, so that was about

5:45

seven , eight months into after

5:48

the show had launched , and

5:51

since then I'm still podcasting

5:53

full-time and it's

5:55

probably the best decision I've ever made .

5:57

That's incredible . I love it . So you've

6:00

switched full-time . What does it look like now

6:03

when you're full-time podcasting

6:06

? So you have a full week and

6:08

you have a weekly show ? What does it look

6:10

like as you prepare research , edit

6:12

, do the whole process ?

6:15

Yeah , so my weekly routine since

6:17

going full-time podcasting has

6:19

completely changed . You're

6:21

used to going into an eight to five

6:23

job where it's

6:26

a little bit easier to be structured in a

6:28

job like that , but when you're on your own

6:31

full-time podcasting , you really , from

6:33

the beginning , have to be very structured

6:36

, and that all comes from yourself determining

6:39

. Ok Mondays , these are my tasks . Tuesday

6:43

I've got to get next week's episode

6:46

uploaded to Bus Sprout by

6:48

Wednesday I've got to be creating my social

6:51

media post . So

6:53

that really is

6:55

so , so important to my success that

6:57

I've created a schedule that

7:00

keeps me on track and then also

7:02

accounts for life and counts for

7:04

my personal life . So that's very , very important

7:07

.

7:07

How do you actually implement that structure

7:09

? Because what I

7:12

could see happening to me is , if

7:14

I was my only boss and I was

7:17

, the only requirement was

7:19

getting an episode out . It'd be very easy to wake

7:21

up at 10.30 , decide I'm

7:23

going to go for a run , maybe I'm not

7:25

even sitting down till lunchtime , and

7:27

then I'm going , I want to grab a bite to eat and

7:30

it's 1pm before I've even really

7:33

started on the podcast . You can totally

7:35

see procrastination slipping in . How

7:37

do you remain disciplined when really

7:40

the main requirement is your own time

7:43

and your own effort and what you think needs

7:45

to go into every show ?

7:46

Yeah , that's such a great point

7:48

and I'm so glad you brought that up

7:50

because , as

7:53

a human myself , I know I

7:55

made that mistake early

7:57

on when I first jumped into podcasting

7:59

full time of oh okay , I

8:01

don't have to get up as early anymore , I can

8:03

kind of take my time . But

8:06

I think that quickly

8:08

I found

8:10

out that was not going to work . I

8:13

think the first week , when you get to the end and

8:15

you're like , oh my gosh , I still need to record

8:17

Monday's episode and it's

8:20

now Thursday afternoon . I think one time

8:22

you go through that you realize , okay

8:25

, I've got to set a schedule for myself

8:27

. I'm the only

8:29

one that's going to hold myself accountable

8:32

. And

8:34

I go back to why I'm doing this

8:36

and I go back to my

8:40

responsibilities as

8:42

a podcast host . My audience

8:44

expects a new episode

8:46

every Monday and these are the things I

8:48

need to do during the week to make sure that

8:50

they don't miss an episode . And I don't miss

8:53

an episode .

8:54

You just touched on something really important when you

8:56

said my audience expects an

8:58

episode every Monday , so

9:00

we often recommend for people

9:02

to be releasing at least once

9:04

a month or once a week on the same day of the week

9:06

. Why is it important to you to release every

9:08

Monday ?

9:10

For me , it's about consistency

9:12

. So you know , since I launched back

9:14

in January 2020 , I

9:17

released a new episode every Monday , so

9:20

I've never skipped a week , even during

9:22

Christmas , during the holidays right

9:24

, I can prepare ahead of time and

9:26

maybe batch a couple of my episodes

9:29

so I can take time away and spend

9:31

time with my family , but

9:33

then I'm also not missing an episode . My

9:36

listeners know that when they log on , they

9:38

can have a new episode of Forensic

9:40

Tales every single Monday .

9:41

That's so great , and if anybody wants to learn

9:43

more about how to take a break from your

9:46

podcast without missing a week , I

9:48

will link probably up here to

9:51

a video that we just did about that so

9:53

that you can go ahead and watch it . One thing that

9:55

struck me as I read more about you

9:58

and your podcast and everything you've done

10:00

is you're in a very crowded

10:03

space . A lot of times , when people say what's

10:05

the most popular type of podcast , true

10:07

Crime comes up , and there's tons

10:10

of really , really well produced

10:12

True Crime podcasts . You're going up against teams

10:15

with dozens of people on the team

10:18

and totally professional at

10:21

everything being done by just a large

10:24

group of people . How do you compete and

10:26

how did you find your space in kind

10:28

of a crowded category ?

10:29

Yeah , and that's a great point . True

10:32

Crime is very , very popular now

10:34

and as a one

10:36

woman show for the most part , it's

10:38

definitely intimidating . It's intimidating

10:41

to go into a

10:43

genre of podcast that is very crowded

10:45

. That is very pop culture right now

10:47

and I think it's okay

10:49

. I allowed myself to feel okay with

10:52

being intimidated by a lot

10:54

of the bigger shows

10:56

out there , but

10:58

I also learned

11:00

a lot from them as a listener . I

11:03

subscribed to a lot of the Big True

11:05

Crime podcasts and I was listening for

11:08

what they did , how they told their stories

11:10

, what they included in their episodes , what they

11:12

didn't include . So for me

11:15

, once I got over being intimidated , I

11:17

started looking at them and seeing

11:19

what I liked , what they did , what I thought I could

11:21

incorporate it to my show

11:23

to make it unique and something different .

11:26

One thing that kind of struck me was

11:28

because of your actual

11:31

your career , your background working

11:34

in the court system and then

11:36

your education being a forensic

11:38

psychologist , that you

11:40

were able to bring different aspects to

11:43

True Crime . A lot

11:45

of times I think people end up in categories because

11:48

they think , oh , I probably

11:50

could do well , and they don't really do a lot

11:52

of research and maybe they aren't truly passionate

11:54

about whatever

11:57

topic they pick and it's easy

11:59

to fade and start missing weeks

12:01

. If you aren't passionate , your

12:03

passion definitely comes through and

12:05

I think that's probably why you've been able to go for

12:08

well over a year now without ever missing

12:10

a week and while constantly bringing

12:12

new stories and new angles to

12:15

stories people might have already heard before , but

12:17

a totally unique perspective .

12:19

Yeah , absolutely , and being

12:22

so passionate about the

12:24

cases and the stories that I'm

12:26

talking about also keeps

12:29

me motivated . Going back to talking

12:31

about keeping a schedule as a full time podcaster

12:34

, it's so much easier

12:36

to stay motivated and to keep

12:38

to a consistent

12:40

schedule when you're passionate about

12:42

what you're talking about . You're excited

12:45

to research a case that you're going to be

12:47

covering next week and you're excited

12:49

to record it because you get to talk about the case again

12:51

. So for me , that really helps

12:54

and it helps me to bring

12:56

my professional

12:59

experience , my education , into

13:01

the stories that I talk about . So

13:03

it's very beneficial to be passionate about it .

13:06

What do we have in touch ? Don ? That I know

13:08

. As soon as you said I was going to go full

13:10

time with my podcast , the thing that

13:13

kind of blew up in a lot

13:15

of our listeners minds was like okay , I

13:17

can't do that , I have to make

13:20

money . I can't just take a

13:22

break from my job . And

13:24

so I want to talk to you about podcast monetization

13:27

, because you've started at

13:29

least to my three different

13:31

ways of earning money from your

13:33

podcast through merchandise

13:36

, Patreon and pod corn . So

13:38

I'd love to walk through those with you , if

13:40

that's all right .

13:42

Absolutely yeah .

13:44

So , first off , patreon . How

13:46

have you incorporated Patreon into your podcast

13:48

? How has that been for you ? Do you

13:50

feel like that's successful ?

13:52

Yeah , so Patreon . For me , that was the

13:54

first monetization tool

13:56

that I launched with Forensic Tales

13:59

. I would say I had my Patreon

14:01

site up within the first couple months

14:03

after launching and

14:06

initially , of course , you get a

14:08

handful of friends and family who

14:11

sign up , who want to support you . But

14:14

once I started incorporating Patreon into

14:16

my episodes , as well as

14:18

incorporating it on my website , on

14:21

my social media links , that's

14:23

when the word started getting out about Patreon

14:25

and it's continuing to grow .

14:28

What has the experience been like being on Patreon

14:30

? Have you been able to connect more closely

14:32

with your audience ? Could

14:34

you talk maybe a bit something about different tiers

14:36

and how you've set that up , because I know

14:38

a lot of people would like to do a

14:40

Patreon but they're kind of afraid am

14:42

I going to have to create all this extra content

14:45

? How do you manage that ?

14:47

So for me Patreon is very

14:50

low maintenance , very manageable

14:52

for me . Since I launched

14:54

, I started my account

14:56

with three different tiers . I'm

14:58

only at four tiers now . I just recently

15:01

added a higher one for some merchandise

15:03

, but it's overall very low

15:05

maintenance for me . One of the biggest

15:08

aspects to my Patreon account is

15:10

getting early access to episodes

15:12

. So patrons of Forensic Tales

15:15

will get to listen to new episodes by

15:17

the Thursday before the launch

15:19

on Monday . I also offer ad

15:21

free options . So for some

15:23

of the higher tiers on Patreon

15:26

, not only do they get early access but they also get

15:29

to enjoy the episodes ad free . Oh

15:31

, that's great and as far as

15:33

extra work , I cover bonus

15:35

content and again in the true

15:38

crime world , there's updates to cases

15:40

all the time and that's something

15:42

that I do probably once a month , so

15:44

it's not time consuming

15:46

and it's definitely added

15:48

a lot of value to the listeners .

15:51

So we've got early access . We have some

15:54

exclusive content . We have

15:56

ad free feeds , which we

15:58

need to talk about ads in a second . I

16:00

think those are all really great ways . I've

16:03

seen a lot of people on Patreon . What they do is they

16:06

are releasing a video every week on YouTube

16:08

or a podcast every week and they're

16:10

going okay Patreon , so I have to

16:12

do a whole nother batch

16:14

of videos and podcasts are even better

16:16

than types people to go on to

16:18

Patreon and when I look

16:20

at that I'm like man , that is that's

16:23

. That's tough , because you've just doubled the amount

16:25

of work you have to do and some

16:27

of your best content gets kind of hidden

16:29

away and no one ever finds out about it . So

16:32

I love how you found sustainable

16:34

ways to run a Patreon

16:36

. So next let's talk about

16:38

merchandise . You have a Tee

16:41

Public page

16:43

where you have merch for the podcast

16:45

. Can you tell us how that you kind of grew

16:47

into that ?

16:48

Yeah , so I've been . Tee Public has

16:50

been the only vendor that I have used for

16:52

merchandise , and it

16:55

actually came about because listeners

16:57

listeners as well as patrons , reached

16:59

out and said hey , courtney , we want

17:02

, we want to rep forensic tales . Where can we buy

17:04

it ? Where can we buy it ? And initially

17:06

, of course , I had some fears about

17:09

, you know , creating merchandise , because you've got

17:11

to worry about quality

17:13

issues and you don't

17:15

want to buy a ton of merchandise and have

17:17

it stored in your apartment for

17:20

months . So I started using

17:22

Tee Public and they've been wonderful . They

17:24

have wonderful customer service , the quality

17:26

was great and it just

17:28

provided another value to my loyal

17:31

listeners who wanted to rep

17:33

some merchandise .

17:35

That's awesome . Have you found that to be pretty

17:37

hands off ? Because I know Tee Public . They

17:40

manage everything people buy from them

17:42

and then you get a

17:44

cut of the proceeds , but then they manage

17:47

all shipping returns , all that right .

17:49

It's completely hands off , which , again

17:52

, as a one woman podcaster , the

17:54

more time that I can get back to

17:56

the other things I have to get done , the better

17:58

, and Tee Public handles everything . You

18:00

create your storefront , which is super , super

18:02

easy . You can create different logos

18:05

if you want , and you get to decide

18:07

what merchandise you want to sell . If you don't

18:09

want to sell hoodies

18:12

, you don't have to sell hoodies . If you want to sell coffee

18:14

mugs , you can sell coffee mugs , and once

18:16

you set that up , which

18:18

is probably a couple hours , it's

18:21

completely hands off . Tee Public takes care of everything .

18:25

How do you promote the Tee

18:27

Public page ?

18:29

So I kind of hinted

18:31

at it in a couple episodes when I was going

18:33

to be launching the storefront . So it was a

18:35

teaser for a couple episodes , saying

18:37

hey , forensic tells listeners , we've got

18:40

some merchandise coming . I

18:42

teased it on my social media site and

18:45

once the storefront was live , I made

18:47

a big big deal about it .

18:49

It was on my website , it was in episodes

18:51

in my intro , as

18:54

well as all over my social so

18:56

let's talk about the third piece , which is , I

18:58

think , why we first got connected , and

19:00

that is pod corn . How have

19:02

you used then ? I listened to a few

19:05

of your episodes and I heard that

19:08

you , working with some brands were those

19:10

all through pod corn that you connected with them ?

19:13

Yes , so I right now I

19:15

exclusively use pod corn

19:17

for my sponsorships for forensic tales .

19:19

Yeah , how did how's that process been

19:21

and how did you first get connected

19:23

with them ?

19:25

It's been absolutely wonderful . My

19:27

experience with pod corn has

19:29

just completely revolutionized

19:32

the show and how I look for sponsorships

19:34

. Prior to getting

19:36

on pod corn , when I first had the

19:38

idea of , okay , I want to start

19:41

monetizing , I want to start getting

19:43

sponsorships , the first

19:45

question is you know where do I go

19:47

? How ? How do I do that

19:49

? Do I have to have X

19:52

amount of downloads ? And

19:54

with pod corn , I created

19:56

a profile in 30 seconds and right there

19:58

in front of me the first time I logged on was

20:00

50 sponsorships and I thought

20:03

, oh my gosh , these are 50 people that I

20:05

can reach out to to

20:07

see if what they're offering is a good fit

20:09

for my listeners or not .

20:10

Were you able to get people to

20:13

get to sponsor the podcast

20:15

right away when you started pitching ?

20:18

I was . I was pretty fortunate , I

20:20

believe , the first couple of days that I was on there

20:23

and started sending proposals to different

20:25

companies , that I received

20:27

my first sponsorship within the first couple of days .

20:30

And can you give us an idea of where

20:32

your podcast was as first listeners when

20:34

you landed your first deal

20:37

? Because I know some people feel a

20:39

little bit nervous that maybe their podcast

20:41

isn't big enough to land a sponsorship

20:44

. So could you dissuade any of those

20:46

fears ?

20:47

Yeah , and let me let me be

20:49

the one to hopefully get rid of any

20:51

of those fears to any other podcasts host out

20:53

there that feels like that . Your show is not big

20:55

enough and you don't have an

20:58

insane amount of

21:00

downloads , because I certainly am not

21:03

the biggest true crime fish podcast

21:05

out there . So for me when

21:07

I was getting my first sponsorships

21:10

, as far as downloads , it would be

21:13

1500

21:16

to 2000 in the first five days or so

21:18

, so not huge

21:20

, huge numbers .

21:22

And it's very

21:24

good to hear that , because then you realize

21:26

we can start the monetization

21:28

earlier in the podcast

21:31

life cycle , which allows

21:33

us do things like hey

21:35

, maybe I'm going to not

21:37

take extra hours at work or maybe I will

21:40

go full time with this , or you know , once

21:42

we start building up some of these revenue

21:44

streams , or maybe for some people it's just

21:47

they want to buy a roadcaster

21:49

pro and they want to be able to actually

21:51

take the podcast to the next level

21:53

you can do it and

21:55

you can justify it when your podcast actually

21:57

has become an income stream .

21:59

Yeah , and I also want to say that , you know , with , with

22:01

popcorn it's you're not going

22:03

to spend a ton , a ton of time

22:05

. You know I'm trying

22:08

to land these sponsorships . You

22:10

know I'm it's . It's a very simplified

22:13

process as long as you can , you know

22:15

create , you

22:18

know personalize proposals . It's not

22:20

something that's time consuming .

22:22

As far as looking for sponsorships , which is great , how

22:25

do you determine which sponsors

22:27

you want on your podcast ? Are there certain criteria

22:30

that you use when you're looking for them ?

22:32

Yeah , so that's , that's one of the biggest

22:34

things for me . When I , when I made the decision

22:36

to start having sponsors on the show

22:38

, I wanted them to mean something

22:41

. I wanted them to to

22:43

be product services or even other

22:45

shows that I felt like my

22:47

listeners would want to hear . I

22:50

didn't want them to be , you

22:52

know , something completely irrelevant

22:54

and I didn't think my listeners would want . I want it to

22:56

be something that they could benefit from

22:59

if , whether it's a product or a service or another

23:01

another show they might want to listen

23:03

to . So I

23:05

think that's so important . And

23:07

what Podcast is great for is

23:09

because I can read all

23:12

about the company before I even

23:14

submit a proposal and

23:17

I kind of control okay , who's

23:19

who someone I want to work with or not .

23:22

We just did a video where

23:24

I think I said something like with

23:26

great trust comes great responsibility

23:28

and like our podcasters , we build an

23:30

incredible amount of trust with our listeners

23:33

. Especially , somebody's been listening to your podcast

23:35

now for over a year , listening

23:37

to every episode . They do trust

23:39

you and it's not . It's

23:43

not just a commercial that's popping in

23:45

, it's your voice . You're reading and

23:47

saying , hey , I

23:49

really think this is a great company . Why

23:52

don't you work with them ? And

23:54

so it's really important for

23:56

us as podcasters to go through

23:59

the process of making sure

24:01

we're comfortable recommending

24:03

the product . You know if it's something you would never

24:05

use , you definitely

24:07

don't want it to be on your podcast and

24:10

people can hear it . You know if it's coming through

24:12

in your voice that you know you're just

24:14

reading off something that you don't care

24:16

about at all , that comes through

24:18

and there's not gonna be a lot of sales and eventually

24:20

the sponsorships move

24:22

on when they realize you're not selling the product

24:25

. But if you can find something that

24:27

you're already passionate about , especially

24:30

if it overlaps with what

24:32

the podcast is about , has some connection

24:34

, you know that's this just perfect

24:37

area where you're able to bring everything

24:39

together the listeners , the trust of the podcast

24:41

what you're known for and

24:44

recommend products that people will love

24:46

and , hopefully , enjoy .

24:47

Yeah , I think that's so important , you know , and

24:49

if I could just share , like a

24:52

quick success story , speaking

24:54

to that very point about offering

24:56

Services and products that that

24:58

I think my listeners would really benefit from

25:00

, there was a company that I

25:02

am , I worked with through

25:05

pod corn . They ran for for

25:07

ads , for middle ads

25:09

, and they

25:11

provided me with a promo code

25:13

that I could provide my listeners with

25:15

. It was , you know , at 20 30%

25:18

off offer . I thought

25:20

, okay , that's even , that's even better . It's a product that

25:22

I think they can benefit from and they can

25:24

. They can save some money on it . Why

25:26

was just contacted two weeks ago from

25:28

from the company and

25:30

they told me that they've already had three sales

25:33

from my listeners that they they

25:35

can track because they're using that forensic

25:37

, you know promo code

25:39

and he emailed me and said we've got three tracked

25:41

sales . This is better than what

25:43

we could have expected . Can

25:46

we buy more ads from you ? So

25:49

that's a win . And that

25:51

told that . Told me you know , as a host

25:53

, that , hey , this was a product

25:55

that my listeners out there they want

25:57

, they want that and

26:00

they got . You know , it was a kind of a win win .

26:02

Yeah , that's definitely a win win . I think

26:04

we Miss , you know , when

26:07

we watch TV and you're watching like a

26:09

that you're watching , maybe date

26:11

line or something , and then a bunch of commercials come

26:13

on the middle . They've nothing to do with

26:15

the TV show , you know . They often

26:17

are just random things are stuck in

26:19

and it's very easy to like , tune

26:22

them out or take that time to go

26:24

get a drink or grab something to eat . You're

26:26

going and doing other things and then you come

26:28

back for the actual show . You're trying to

26:30

avoid it . But when it is

26:32

the host telling you , hey

26:34

, here's what I love , here's a product why I like

26:37

it and here's actually a code

26:39

, so the actually a discount , it's

26:41

a totally different experience and

26:44

it's so much more engaging for the audience

26:46

and I think that a lot

26:48

of advertisers are getting smart and realizing

26:51

the return

26:53

on our investment here is so much greater

26:55

because we are using the host as

26:57

a spokesperson of the company rather

27:00

than just getting , you

27:03

know , some random actor to

27:05

come on and just , like you know , kind of

27:07

read something to you on a commercial . So

27:11

let's talk a little bit about

27:13

podcast growth . How have

27:16

you been successful in growing your podcast

27:18

since you went full time

27:20

?

27:21

Great question . So I

27:23

definitely want to lead this off by saying

27:26

that prior to launching

27:28

and prior to to starting forensic

27:30

tales , I have zero audience . I

27:33

didn't have a company I

27:36

. The audience for me was

27:38

friends and family who you

27:41

know , that was in my immediate network . So I

27:44

want to be open and honest that you know I

27:46

had zero audience prior to launching and

27:49

so everything that I've been able to To

27:53

create now has been totally out of grassroots

27:56

from the beginning , and I think that's important

27:58

. If anyone Thinks

28:01

that you already need an audience to start a podcast

28:03

, which you don't , so for me

28:05

, in the beginning it , I really

28:07

created a huge launch campaign

28:10

leading up to the actual

28:12

dropping of my first episodes . I was

28:14

doing a huge launch Two

28:16

months before the show was even even

28:18

available for download , which started

28:21

with immediate friends and family

28:24

. I created an army

28:26

of forensic tales , army of friends and family

28:28

in the beginning and

28:30

I asked them

28:32

to help me promote it two

28:34

months before the show had even launched . So

28:37

I'm getting to my network plus their network

28:39

and their network and their network . And

28:42

that was really successful for me because

28:44

when I launched my show and

28:46

dropped the first three episodes , I

28:49

had a audience , a small

28:51

audience , but it was there and

28:54

then , since then it's been growing

28:57

the audience outside of my immediate

29:00

network .

29:01

One thing that stuck to me about why

29:04

I thought your podcast might be successful is you

29:06

have a very clear name . Forensic

29:08

Tales is a very easy to

29:10

understand . I know what this podcast

29:12

is going to be about . A lot

29:15

of podcasts really do grow by word of mouth

29:17

, and so having a podcast

29:19

that people enjoy and having a very

29:21

clear way for people

29:23

to explain what your podcast is about so

29:26

they could say it's true crime , but

29:28

she has a forensic lens

29:31

on everything and is able to come at it from this

29:33

forensic psychology angle and

29:35

from your past experience in the court system

29:38

, you have a lot

29:40

of interesting insights into

29:42

these cases that may not be on

29:44

other , even more largely

29:47

produced shows , and so for people

29:49

to be able to say that I think is incredibly

29:51

valuable . Have you found word of mouth

29:53

to be an important growth channel for you ?

29:55

Oh , absolutely . I would say that

29:58

word of mouth is

30:00

probably one of the biggest tools

30:03

for growing my audience , and

30:05

I think word of mouth can happen a number of different

30:07

ways . Of course , people who know

30:10

each other , who work together . I get emails

30:12

from people saying my coworkers

30:15

and I listened to your show , can you cover

30:17

this case ? Or

30:21

people are sharing word of mouth in

30:23

different Facebook groups

30:25

and Reddit and

30:28

different online communities where

30:30

they're talking about true crime shows

30:32

or they're talking about a particular

30:35

case that I covered in a previous

30:37

episode . So , definitely , word

30:39

of mouth is huge for my growth

30:41

.

30:42

Have you done anything to seed those discussions

30:45

, like in Facebook groups and

30:47

on Reddit forums

30:49

, or is that just totally hands off ? Other

30:51

people have taken them on themselves to promote

30:54

the show .

30:54

Yeah , that's a great question . I would say it's

30:57

probably 50-50 . I'm

30:59

definitely as a true crime fan myself

31:01

, I'm definitely involved in several

31:03

different Facebook groups that are

31:05

dedicated to true

31:07

crime , true crime podcasts . I definitely

31:09

participate in those . But then

31:11

also it's a lot of hands

31:14

off If I discover

31:16

and I interact with one of my listeners and I

31:18

say , hey , how did you find my show ? And

31:21

they tell me it was talked about

31:23

on Reddit . I

31:25

don't use Reddit , so

31:27

that tells me that that interaction is happening

31:29

without my involvement .

31:32

How do you approach promoting

31:35

your own show ? So if you're in a Facebook group and

31:37

people are talking about something that you think

31:39

is related to your podcast , how

31:41

do you do that without coming

31:44

off as being kind of scammy or just like being

31:47

self-promotional ?

31:51

Yeah , that's a tricky thing because

31:53

as a podcast host , you never want

31:55

to come across as hey , listen to my show

31:57

, listen to my show . I

31:59

would say that I really only

32:01

do that if I feel like

32:04

I'm in a discussion

32:06

where people are talking

32:09

about something whether

32:11

that's a case or a certain aspect

32:13

of a case . If I really think that

32:15

my episode and my show

32:18

can really bring them benefit

32:20

or really contribute

32:23

to what they're talking about , then

32:25

I would introduce it . But it's a very kind of a careful

32:27

thing to not be constantly

32:30

in these groups saying download

32:32

my show , download my show .

32:35

To be clear these are true crime

32:37

. Facebook groups . They're not podcast

32:39

Facebook groups .

32:40

One thing we see all the time is .

32:43

In our group , we've always had to be

32:45

extremely . I

32:47

feel like our rules have always had to be really tough about

32:49

not being self-promotional

32:51

of your podcast , because we

32:54

are all podcasters in the group . So we have

32:56

16,000 or 20,000 podcasters

32:58

and everybody wants to tell each other about their shows

33:01

. That we do that . It's just

33:03

total chaos . So

33:06

you're in the groups related to

33:08

your subject matter and

33:11

when you write these comments , are

33:13

you giving more context

33:16

or are you ? Is it ? We're not just

33:18

dropping a link , right , we're giving you're giving more

33:20

context around it .

33:21

Absolutely yeah , and these are definitely true

33:24

crime . I'm in a handful of

33:26

them on Facebook . These are true crime podcasts

33:28

and they're members of listeners

33:31

as well as other podcasts hosts . So

33:33

when I'm chiming in , it's

33:35

really about not just saying here's

33:38

my subscribe button , here's the link to listen

33:40

to the episode . It's

33:42

really connecting with them , saying hey

33:44

, you're talking about the

33:47

Night Stalker and this aspect

33:49

, or you're talking about a case that's just been

33:52

updated in the news recently . It's

33:55

about saying I covered this and

33:57

this is what I had to say about it , or this

34:00

is what I talked about in the episode

34:03

.

34:04

or I simply say hey , I didn't know that .

34:06

When I was researching the case . I didn't know

34:08

that , so it's more of like a discussion too . It's not

34:10

just constantly trying to plug my

34:12

show .

34:13

Yeah , If we're not providing some value in

34:15

the comment , then people are

34:17

not going to click it . Yeah absolutely

34:19

. Maybe when it was AOL in 1994

34:22

, if we saw the link , we would just click it and wonder where

34:24

it went . Now on the internet , we know

34:26

. If I don't know what this link is going to , I'm just

34:29

going to pass . I have no interest in

34:31

clicking and ending up on some scammy

34:34

website . Those

34:36

are great best practices

34:38

. Or are there other best practices that you would recommend

34:41

to new podcasters , especially around

34:43

growing a show ?

34:45

Absolutely , and I would say the one

34:47

biggest thing is consistency

34:50

. I know I've talked about it already as

34:52

far as producing a weekly episode , but

34:54

also being consistent with my

34:57

brand , making sure that my

34:59

website they don't

35:01

go to forensictalescom and it looks completely

35:03

different than what they see in the directories

35:06

. And making sure that I'm consistent

35:08

with blog posts so every episode

35:10

gets a blog post . Making

35:13

sure the blog posts are consistent . My social

35:15

media sites are consistent

35:17

. So I would say my biggest piece of advice

35:19

is to be

35:23

consistent about it . What you

35:25

do aligns with your brand , with your show

35:27

, and I think that's really important

35:29

to people . They can expect certain

35:31

things out of the show .

35:33

If there's somebody else out there who wants

35:36

to start . So we're actually going way back . They've

35:38

just been listening for a long time . Maybe they've been listening

35:40

to your podcast and they're thinking

35:43

all right , I've got to start

35:45

a show . What recommendations would you give

35:47

to that brand new podcaster ?

35:49

I would say number one

35:51

take yourself seriously

35:53

about it . You can take

35:55

it seriously even if it's just a hobby . You can have a

35:57

serious hobby about it and

36:00

take yourself seriously with it . Know

36:03

that you have a space here , you

36:05

have a voice . Know that

36:07

there are so many people out

36:09

there that can benefit from hearing your

36:12

voice and what you have to share

36:14

. And once you get over that initial

36:16

fear , it's about creating the

36:18

brand , the image . What

36:21

do you want to represent and

36:23

what are some of the things that you're going to go about

36:25

creating that brand

36:27

, whether that's going to be on social , or whether you want

36:30

a website or you don't want a website .

36:32

Are there any tools Now ? I

36:34

You're not in your studio today

36:37

, so I caught you on a day when you're outside

36:39

the normal student . Is there any tools

36:41

or gear that you would recommend

36:43

that have been important in you

36:46

launching your podcast ?

36:47

Yes , so . So for me this is going back

36:49

to how I started the

36:51

show . I

36:53

was my fiance purchase Pat Flynn's

36:55

power up podcasting course for me . That's

36:58

how I got started , which I know Pat Flynn

37:00

is involved with bus route I'm

37:02

, so that's how I got started , which really helped me

37:04

know which kind of microphone to buy

37:06

. I'm , because

37:09

even just a microphone , if you're starting a

37:11

podcast , you you know Google

37:13

podcast microphone or you go on Amazon

37:16

, right , you're gonna get , you're

37:19

gonna get a million different ones

37:21

you know , from five dollars to five thousand

37:23

dollars , and it's like whoa , where

37:27

do I even begin ? and then

37:29

you get into what kind of

37:31

software you're gonna use , what kind of headset

37:33

you're gonna use . So for me , having a course

37:35

In the beginning did help me

37:37

know . Okay , I don't

37:39

need to go out and spend five thousand dollars on

37:41

a microphone what microphone did you end

37:44

up with ? I have a Sam Samson

37:46

to queue .

37:47

The one that yeah we

37:49

love it . The Samson Q2 you is the

37:51

microphone for you .

37:54

I love that . Hey , that's

37:56

been .

37:56

I can't hold myself back from like some silly

37:59

, cheesy comment , but

38:01

like it's a sixty dollar microphone

38:03

that sounds so much better

38:05

. And I remember

38:07

one of the first time savers spoke on stage about

38:10

podcasting , someone said I only have

38:12

ten thousand dollars to spend my recording

38:14

set up . And I was like If I

38:16

had ten thousand dollars to spend on a recording

38:18

set up , I would put like nine thousand

38:20

five hundred of that in a

38:22

bank account or a stock market or something

38:24

and then take that maybe

38:27

a few hundred dollars . Like when you're starting

38:29

out . It's not

38:31

the gear , it's not the software , it's

38:33

none of the tutorials

38:36

, none of that is what's holding you back . It is Most

38:39

often our own insecurities

38:41

and our own fear that people

38:44

are gonna like this . They'll think I'm just copying

38:46

another show . My voice

38:48

actually sounds pretty goofy . Oh

38:51

, this editing is so much more difficult

38:53

than I thought . What's a podcast

38:55

host ? I'm the podcast host . What's

38:57

a bus sprout doing an apple

39:00

podcast ? And iTunes , what ? How does connect ? Like ? You

39:03

know what we're working through all that . That's

39:05

the difficult part , you know

39:08

. Don't over complicate it with thousands and thousands

39:10

of dollars .

39:12

Yeah , absolutely , and you know what ? Don't be afraid

39:14

to to reach out

39:16

. Reach out to the different shows that

39:18

you listen to , or get involved

39:20

in the bus sprout Facebook

39:22

group , which I , which I absolutely use every day probably and

39:27

get connected with other people doing podcasts , ask

39:29

them questions , and I think a lot of other

39:31

podcasts host out . There are more than willing to to help

39:33

you . Well , courtney , if people want

39:35

to learn more about you .

39:36

where should they go ?

39:41

Yeah , so if you want to learn more about me , my website

39:43

is forensic tales dot com . My

39:46

podcast is available on every

39:48

podcast platform . I'm

39:54

also on Facebook at forensic tales

39:56

, and also emails . You're more than welcome to email

39:58

me . You can email me at Courtney at forensic tales

40:00

dot com , and I would love to connect with any other podcast

40:02

host or anyone thinking of starting a podcast

40:04

.

40:05

Well , thank you so much for being on the podcast . We're

40:08

excited to have you on bus sprout and

40:10

we hope everybody has learned a lot

40:12

, especially about monetization , growing

40:14

a podcast and maybe even taking

40:16

it full time . Until the

40:18

next time , keep podcasting .