0:00

Contests are a really great way of spiking Apple

0:02

podcast reviews and then , if you're doing

0:04

a contest simultaneously to that , you should

0:06

be filling out Apple's placement form so

0:08

that they can catch whiff of the fact that

0:10

your contest is really spiking

0:12

your reviews and your downloads , which means , if

0:15

they pick you up for their new and noteworthy section

0:17

, that's a whole other , you

0:19

know ballgame of visibility that you

0:21

haven't even initially considered . Hey

0:24

everybody

0:30

.

0:30

I recently had the opportunity to sit down with Fatima

0:32

Zade . Fatima is the co-founder

0:35

and CEO of Quill . Quill is

0:37

a marketplace for podcasters

0:39

and anybody who does freelancing in the

0:41

podcasting industry . In case you need someone

0:43

to help improve your show , they

0:46

also do branded podcasts

0:48

. They're a full service production

0:50

company that will help brands create

0:52

really great podcasts to

0:55

showcase their stories and connect with

0:57

their potential and

0:59

current customers . So it's a really interesting

1:01

conversation about brands and

1:04

why you should be starting a podcast , why

1:06

brands should be looking at podcasts . At

1:08

the end , we started talking about a lot of podcast

1:11

growth tips . Quill has a really

1:13

good method for growing podcasts

1:15

and how to consistently

1:18

get listed in Apple podcasts

1:20

new and noteworthy and then we wrap

1:22

up at the end with a talk about personal

1:24

brands . If you are an indie podcaster

1:27

, how do you know whether or not you should

1:29

be building a personal brand , what things

1:31

should you be doing and what are the values

1:33

there ? So it was a really interesting

1:35

conversation . I learned a lot and I

1:38

hope you do too . Let's get to it , Fatima

1:40

. Thank you so much for being here .

1:41

Thank you for having me . It's pleasure as

1:43

always .

1:45

It's my pleasure . Let me start

1:47

off by asking you how did you get into podcasting ? What

1:49

brought you to our little corner of the

1:51

internet ?

1:52

Well , I think it's the corner that everyone was noticing . But

1:55

back in 2014 , when Sarah

1:57

Caning launched Serial , I remember

2:00

my best friend from

2:02

Oman calling me up and saying you know

2:04

, fats , there's this new murder

2:06

mystery and it's about this Pakistani guy and

2:08

of course I have Pakistani roots and she's

2:10

like this teenage boy has

2:12

been convicted of murdering

2:15

his girlfriend and I think this

2:17

is right up your alley , but it's in a weird

2:19

format , it's something called a podcast

2:21

, which is like somewhat of an audio book

2:23

, and I had no

2:25

idea what she was talking about . But , being the

2:28

murder mystery connoisseur

2:30

that I am , I , you know , took a look

2:32

and the rest is history . I mean Serial

2:34

after that became a household name . It

2:36

made podcasting a household name and at

2:39

the time I was running a

2:41

marketing agency for Fortune 500 companies . We

2:43

did marketing in PR and I was looking

2:46

at new ways to create content to

2:48

reach new audiences , and that

2:50

was back before podcasting was

2:52

, you know , mainstream . So that's when

2:54

I became a consumer and started exploring

2:57

it as an opportunity for some of

2:59

our clients . That's awesome .

3:01

I remember when really it was

3:03

that Serial moment that's actually very

3:05

close to when I left law

3:07

to join the world of podcasting

3:09

. Podcasting jumped from

3:12

something under 100,000 podcasts maybe like

3:14

60,000 in the world to now

3:16

close to 2 million , and

3:18

the landscape has changed completely

3:21

. With all that

3:23

change , what prompted

3:25

you to think that this is like something that's

3:27

going to continue to go , that you wanted to

3:29

invest in even more ?

3:31

You know it's so interesting because when I was launching

3:33

Quill , so I decided to sell the last

3:35

agency and productize our services

3:37

, so really specialize in podcasting

3:39

, and everybody told me

3:41

that I was absolutely nuts because you

3:43

know it was a very niche industry . I

3:46

went from my market size being every

3:48

company who needed marketing to , specifically

3:51

, companies who were exploring podcasting , which

3:53

was a very new medium . But

3:55

the way that I looked at it was the

3:58

industry for agencies is very saturated

4:00

but there's not a lot of podcasting

4:02

agencies that actually know what they're doing

4:04

, folks who not only can create

4:06

really good content but also understand

4:09

audience growth , understand analytics

4:11

, understand the ins and outs of reaching the right

4:13

audiences , and so

4:15

from filling

4:17

a market gap , that was kind of a no-brainer

4:20

for me . But I would say that the thing that I

4:22

really got to me was the exponential growth within

4:24

the industry . Actually , I think we're

4:26

almost at 4 million podcasts . I

4:28

was recently reading up the

4:30

Pod News newsletter and they said something in there about

4:33

we're almost at 4 million and

4:36

I don't know if I'm quoting that inaccurately

4:38

or not , but I think we're almost

4:40

there or getting there , and

4:42

I think it's more so . Just the growth like 4,000

4:44

new shows popping up every week and

4:47

last year this time we were at 900,000 active

4:49

podcasts . So it's

4:52

especially further compounded

4:54

in the pandemic , where it's definitely not a

4:56

fad and here to stay .

4:58

Yeah , I know on the Buzzsprout side we about

5:00

tripled during the pandemic as

5:03

far as our company size , and

5:05

there's just , it was pretty much spurred by

5:07

people who are really interested in starting

5:10

new podcasts . They

5:13

were all of a sudden had a lot of time at home and figured

5:15

out , hey , I've been saying

5:17

I want to start a podcast for a long time , or

5:19

maybe they were just feeling a little bit disconnected

5:22

from a lot of their people they used to spend time with and

5:26

they went , hey , let's start a podcast

5:28

and start leaning into this new medium Totally . So

5:30

the way you got into podcasting

5:33

is you saw this opportunity and

5:35

you founded Quill . What is Quill ?

5:36

Yeah , so Quill is a full

5:38

service podcast production and marketing agency , which

5:42

means that we work with Fortune 500 brands to create content

5:44

, but also market the shows . I

5:47

always say creating a good show is half of the work , and

5:49

the other half of the battle is really reaching

5:52

the right audiences and making sure that

5:54

all of this great

5:56

content is being promoted . I will say , though

5:58

, that we are a very tech enabled agency , so

6:01

we have the marketplace , which is for anyone who can't

6:03

afford agency pricing . You

6:05

can go on and hire podcasting experts , so

6:08

think of it as the upwork or

6:11

fiver of the podcasting world . And

6:13

then we actually just launched

6:16

a beta version of a new audience growth tool that

6:19

we're also going to be using for enterprise clients , and essentially the

6:21

product we created for our agency clients , but

6:25

we'll soon be opening it up to

6:27

the mass market as well . So , and so you have

6:29

both sides .

6:31

You have kind of that full service and you have a lot of clients

6:33

and you have also the marketplace . Who

6:36

is that marketplace really geared towards

6:38

?

6:38

Yeah . So full service agency is

6:40

more towards brands who want a team of folks around

6:43

them , and then the marketplace is more for , indeed

6:45

, podcasters and content creators who

6:47

may have limited budgets but still want to put

6:49

out a really great show . And

6:51

essentially what we've been doing over the last couple of

6:53

years is we love being

6:56

in the service space and creating shows , because

6:58

that's where you really learn the pain points of the

7:00

industry and what the challenges are , and then

7:02

, based on those challenges , we create products

7:04

to solve those pain points .

7:06

So you really specialize

7:08

in this brand's aspect . And I know

7:11

I've heard you speak . I've listened to a lot

7:13

of podcasts with you really like kind

7:15

of pinpointing the value

7:18

proposition for a brand to start

7:20

a podcast and really selling

7:22

that idea . What , why should a brand

7:24

actually start a podcast ?

7:26

My goodness , I could go on and on about

7:29

this . This is so much content to share here

7:31

, but I would say the biggest reason is

7:33

that it is typically a medium

7:35

that is not available to other advertisers . I

7:38

can be driving to work and

7:40

listening to a podcast , but I cannot be

7:42

watching a Netflix show . I can be

7:44

washing the dishes and listening

7:47

to a podcast , but not , you

7:50

know , reading an article , and I think that

7:52

it's important to understand that 94%

7:55

of folks who start a podcast end up listening

7:58

to the entire show , whereas a

8:00

30 minute video only has about a 12%

8:02

completion rate . And that disparity

8:04

in numbers is that , typically

8:07

, when you're trying to reach educated millennial

8:09

professionals , they want

8:11

to be productive whatever they're doing , they

8:13

want to be actively engaged in another activity , and

8:16

this is one of the only mediums where being engaged

8:18

in another activity increases engagement

8:20

rather than hurts it , and so you

8:22

know it's the only advertising

8:25

medium that is available to folks . That

8:27

isn't available to any other form of marketing

8:29

, whether that be content written , and

8:31

everyone consumes content in a different way . Some

8:33

people prefer our visual , some people prefer audio

8:36

, and so you know you really want

8:38

to make sure that you're reaching all types of audiences . If

8:40

it's YouTube , it's Gen Z . If it's podcasts

8:43

, it's older millennials . If it's , you

8:45

know , linkedin or Facebook , you're typically

8:48

looking at an older generation . Tiktok

8:50

, you're looking at Gen Z . So if you're

8:52

, you know , eliminating podcasting from your marketing

8:54

strategy , it's a whole slew of people that you're

8:57

not thinking about , people like myself

8:59

, who exclusively consume content in the form

9:01

of audio .

9:02

We have definitely seen that on the Buzzsprout side

9:04

, the same piece of content that we may release

9:06

as a blog post , a podcast and

9:09

a YouTube video . I've

9:11

shared these numbers publicly , but I think it's something

9:13

like three and a half minutes is our

9:15

average blog read time . Four

9:17

and a half maybe is our average view

9:20

time on the YouTube video , which is really

9:22

highly produced . And then

9:24

if someone starts the podcast , we're

9:26

, on average , expecting them to listen to 90-something

9:29

percent of that podcast . It's

9:31

like 40 minutes , and

9:33

the amount of effort that goes into each

9:35

of those mediums is

9:38

entirely different . And I think you pinpointed

9:41

it when you said it's because podcasting

9:43

takes into

9:46

account you're doing something else

9:48

. Podcasting is not trying to dominate your time

9:50

, so everyone

9:52

should be . If they're not , you should

9:54

think about it , go out and work out every

9:56

day and when you're working out , pop

9:58

in a podcast , listen to some music , like those

10:01

are good times to do something else , and

10:04

I think that's why we get so much better

10:06

engagement , because we're doing something

10:08

else and we're not maybe , as

10:10

I'm prone to , like

10:12

switch kind of like haphazardly between

10:14

content .

10:15

Yeah , definitely , I mean it . We

10:17

know it's one of the best ways to reach a global

10:20

audience , create an intimate connection

10:22

with your customers , with your audience , your listeners

10:24

, and provide valuable on-demand content , and

10:27

so we always encourage

10:29

anyone who's creating a podcast , whether you're

10:31

a brand or an indie content creator

10:33

that there's a lot of work that goes into

10:35

creating a good show , so you should repurpose

10:37

that content into other formats . Podcasting

10:40

is great for those who prefer audio and

10:42

for those who like to be actively engaged

10:44

in other activity , but you should

10:46

still be putting it out in the form of a blog

10:49

and YouTube and social media

10:51

clips , which is exactly what you just said , and

10:54

repurposing that content means that you can

10:56

continue to reach new audiences

10:58

in new places , and you

11:00

know you're really not doubling up the work

11:02

. What you're doing is it's just a smarter content

11:04

strategy .

11:06

On other podcasts . I've heard you say

11:08

in the future , brands are

11:10

either going to have their own podcast

11:12

or they will be advertising on somebody else's

11:14

. Why , first

11:16

off ? Like , why do you think that that's the future ? What

11:18

do you see that leads us to that future ?

11:21

Yeah , so I think the quote that you're referring to and

11:23

I have been , you know , informally using

11:25

this quite often is that in the 1980s

11:28

we had a phone number for our business . In

11:30

the 1990s it was a website . In

11:32

the 2000s it was so shul and and

11:34

I think in the next five to ten years it's going to

11:36

be podcasting is going to be our medium

11:38

and refer a variety

11:41

of reasons . I think from an engagement level

11:43

, we're finding that it's

11:45

just a very intimate sort

11:47

of platform or medium where the host becomes

11:49

an influencer and you start to trust

11:52

their product recommendations and their advice

11:54

and their opinions . I think that

11:56

it's a very easy . It's

11:59

a . It's not an easy production process , but it's

12:01

a very easy consumption process . Like you know

12:03

, the way that you can get access to a

12:05

podcast , the way you can distribute , the way you can

12:07

listen to it , it's just at the tip of your fingertips

12:10

and , and more importantly

12:12

, I think that it's become

12:14

a very accessible medium . These days , anyone

12:16

with you know you don't even need a microphone

12:18

or a headset . You essentially need your phone

12:21

to record content . Not that I recommend

12:23

recording on a phone . I'm

12:25

all about the high , high quality production

12:27

. But you know , even if you wanted to create

12:30

, you know , content for your friends and family . You

12:32

know , it's just so easy to put together

12:35

a podcast and readily available

12:37

to anyone who has an internet connection that I

12:40

think that in 2007

12:42

, if you were the first person on Twitter tweeting

12:44

like him Kardashian , by default You're an influencer

12:46

today , and I think the people who are podcasting

12:49

today in the next five to ten years are going to be the influencers

12:51

.

12:52

There was definitely a moment where actually

12:54

. So . The first conference I wrote a two-for-podcasting

12:57

was in December 2014

13:00

, and I remember someone there telling me Well

13:03

, I don't even know if it makes sense because

13:05

I already missed the boat . You know , the whole wave

13:07

of podcasting is kind of crashed . If

13:10

I'd started two years ago , I'd have a great show

13:12

, but now it's too late and I

13:14

think back on that all the time seven

13:16

years ago . And

13:18

had you just stuck with it it

13:21

doesn't matter how bad that show had been in

13:23

the beginning , it's seven years of work

13:25

on it He'd be , you know , millions

13:27

of downloads per episode , doing incredibly

13:30

well with his podcast .

13:31

Think of the SEO he would have built over

13:33

the last seven years and the back links . He would

13:35

have gone just to rank on Google when

13:37

people were searching for similar content

13:40

to his . Also , I think that that's just

13:42

such a ridiculous statement because we're

13:44

okay , we're between two to four million podcasts

13:46

. I'm gonna , after this podcast interview

13:49

, I'm gonna double check to see what that stat is . But

13:51

let's say we're at two to four million podcasts

13:54

. There's sixty plus million YouTube

13:56

channels , there's 1.5

13:58

billion websites , there's 500

14:00

hours of content being uploaded every minute

14:02

and 30 plus million , 600

14:05

plus million blogs and 30 plus million YouTube channels

14:08

. So podcasting is very much

14:10

at the beginning of the hype cycle and

14:13

only 18% of those podcasts are active

14:15

. So we're like

14:17

, not even , we haven't even scratched the surface

14:19

of content yet . So that person you spoke

14:21

to Very misinformed

14:23

.

14:24

Well , he was speaking at a time before we had a hundred

14:26

thousand shows , and so

14:28

Definitely , you

14:30

know , missed the opportunity , and

14:32

I hope that he maybe is Listening

14:35

now and maybe he actually has a podcast again

14:37

. It'd be fun to go back and find

14:40

that individual . So we're thinking

14:42

about brand starting a podcast

14:44

. You're gonna tell me a bit about how podcasts

14:46

are gonna continue to grow

14:48

. What is

14:50

the specific reason , though , why

14:52

a brand should have their own podcast

14:54

? So I'm thinking of , like a sales force . Why

14:57

does sales force need to have a podcast ? Why

14:59

, for them , would it not make more sense to say

15:01

hey , I've got my One

15:04

of my marketing directors . Go ahead and

15:06

buy four million dollars of podcast

15:08

ads across all these shows . We

15:11

don't have time to create in your

15:13

own internal podcast . Where , what

15:15

? What am I missing ?

15:16

Yeah , so it's . It's really interesting

15:19

because I think day-to-day we all walk around

15:21

and there's so many you know Behemoth

15:23

brands that we know of

15:25

Amazon , google , facebook , mcdonald's

15:27

, slack sales force , but we don't

15:30

know their brand story . We have zero emotional

15:32

connections to them and and this is a

15:34

story that I share with everybody I

15:36

, I , our household , our entire household

15:38

are huge ice cream consumers and when

15:41

we used to go to the grocery store , we were never

15:44

exclusively loyal to any particular brand

15:46

until we heard Jerry

15:48

, jerry and Tom I think

15:50

it's Jerry Greenfield and Tom from Ben

15:52

and Jerry's on how I built this , the how

15:54

I built this episode with Guy Raz , and

15:56

After that episode

15:59

I felt such a profound connection

16:01

to their brand , their brand story , their

16:03

mission , vision and values that we Exclusively

16:06

now by Ben and Jerry's . I

16:08

don't think it's the best ice cream product on the

16:10

market . I think that Hagen does , and

16:12

there's so many other Other

16:14

flavors and brands that are probably

16:17

more superior than Ben

16:19

and Jerry's . But I just love their company

16:21

so much and since then I've been

16:23

Following them through so many podcast

16:26

episodes and and you know their black

16:28

lives matter movement statement that they put out

16:30

, and Since then I just have developed

16:32

an attachment to their brand in a way that

16:34

goes so beyond product consumption . And

16:37

that's what I find podcasting can do for

16:39

your brand , especially if you're a B to C . So

16:41

a B to C company can come on

16:43

and tell their brand stories , talk about

16:46

. You know what they're doing behind the scenes

16:48

and you're no longer just a company . You know it's very

16:50

much humanizing what you're doing

16:52

behind the scenes that your customers don't get to see

16:54

. But if you're a B to B company

16:57

, that has been studies shown and actually Quill

16:59

internally has been tracking this with our

17:01

B to B podcasting clients that show

17:04

Anyone who is doing a podcast

17:06

, who makes a list of prospective clients

17:08

that they want to close contracts with , or vendors

17:11

or partnerships . With About

17:13

60 to 70% of those folks that

17:15

they have come on their show , we'll end

17:17

up at some point within the next six months

17:19

closing into a larger contract . So

17:22

it's not just a marketing strategy , it's

17:24

a really powerful sales tool . One

17:26

hour in front of somebody what better way

17:28

to build a relationship with someone than having

17:30

them on your show ? So B to B

17:33

, I would say great sales strategy . B to

17:35

C great brand awareness tool .

17:37

I actually recently ran across a story

17:39

that I think it was during the civil

17:42

rights era that there were

17:44

. The CEO of Coca-Cola

17:46

said that he wanted to have like an

17:48

interracial dinner and Was

17:51

getting a lot of pushback from like civic leaders

17:53

in Atlanta and he said that's fine , I'm

17:55

gonna move the entire company out of Atlanta

17:57

unless we sell out . And it sold out within like

17:59

two hours or something and

18:02

I was like it's just like this little

18:04

anecdote that I heard it probably

18:06

was very well known 50 years

18:08

ago , but I'd never heard it

18:10

and I already had high brand affinity

18:12

for coke . But I heard it and I was like man , that's

18:15

a really cool story . I like

18:17

feel a I'd

18:19

never even thought about who's the CEO of Coca-Cola

18:22

until that moment . I

18:24

think we consistently

18:27

. It's why

18:29

people are in love with Tesla

18:31

, that they have some . They've actually built

18:33

a connection in some way to

18:36

Elon Musk or maybe for

18:38

a lot of people with Steve Jobs and Apple computers . Learning

18:41

the stories of the individuals and

18:43

just the brand story is

18:45

really powerful for consumers

18:49

to build a totally different level

18:51

of connection .

18:52

Absolutely . I mean Sephora , their podcast

18:54

Lip Stories , where they profile

18:56

female pioneers and each lipstick brand is

18:58

named after a different powerhouse

19:01

. I mean what a great way to

19:03

bring different , diverse perspectives to the table

19:05

. I'm sure that their podcast

19:07

, I mean they haven't released sales stats , but I'm

19:10

sure that they've had really high conversion rates from

19:12

product perspective . Then

19:14

there's brands that I have never given second

19:16

thought to , general Electric being the perfect

19:18

one . When they released the message

19:20

, the podcast , I thought

19:23

it was an interesting concept solving extraterrestrial

19:26

messages using General Electric

19:28

products . It's so kooky

19:30

and quirky I was like that's so interesting

19:33

. It really put their brand

19:35

on the map . That's not to say nobody knows what General

19:37

Electric is . Of course we all know it's a household

19:39

name , but do we really know what they

19:41

do ? Do we really care ? Now

19:44

we care because we've listened to their podcast and

19:46

now that relationship is so much more intimate

19:48

. I

19:50

mean there's tons of studies . I recently

19:52

wrote an article quoting some BBC

19:54

stats that actually show

19:57

you specifically the impact that it has

19:59

on your brand favorability , purchasing

20:01

intent , brand awareness , uplift

20:04

and purchasing intent and

20:06

really specific metrics on brands'

20:09

bottom lines . I would say

20:12

all of that is secondary . Of course sales

20:14

is always a priority , but , first and foremost

20:16

, what you're trying to do is stay top of mind with

20:18

people who are seeking out your content

20:21

.

20:21

That's really interesting . I didn't

20:23

prep this question , so feel

20:26

free to dodge

20:28

it if you'd like . That's

20:31

a Sephora podcast . I'd never heard of it

20:33

. I think that's a really interesting way

20:35

for them to highlight their product and

20:38

to also connect to their audience in a meaningful

20:40

way . Are there other brands that

20:42

you see doing interesting podcasts

20:45

, and could you tell the stories behind

20:47

them ?

20:47

Yeah , absolutely . I

20:49

listen to 10 podcasts a week and I

20:51

would say five of them are usually branded podcasts

20:54

. I try to diversify content from

20:57

the New York Times , the Gimlet

20:59

, the Wondries of the World , with

21:01

smaller indie shows and then also branded

21:03

shows . There's a bunch of podcasts

21:06

that I highly recommend for those tuning

21:08

in or looking for recommendations . Slack

21:11

has two podcasts . One

21:13

is called Slack Variety Pack . It's an older

21:15

one , and then the new one is Work in Progress

21:17

. I love both of those shows because

21:19

it aligns so well with their brand messaging

21:22

and positioning . Their entire

21:24

product and their entire business mission

21:26

is to help teams work better together . That's

21:29

why Slack was produced . Their entire

21:31

podcast is about profiling business

21:33

stories where teams have worked together to

21:35

solve problems . I

21:37

love that one .

21:39

One thing I've noticed is so I've seen brands

21:41

do this on Buzzsprout we had

21:43

a customer who I

21:46

forget how he initially connected , but he

21:48

was doing a podcast

21:50

about setting up call centers . His

21:53

actual job was setting up call

21:55

centers . He would people

21:57

would outsource it to him . He set up their call center . Once

21:59

they hit a certain level and they needed to have

22:02

a large call center , he would set it up . He

22:05

started just talking about the process . Here's the

22:07

KPIs you should be using . Here's how you hire , here

22:09

are the red flags you have with managers

22:11

, here's the equipment , just

22:14

everything in a podcast . What

22:16

he realized was , even though he was

22:18

only getting , I think , around 150

22:21

downloads per episode , the

22:23

people he was constantly in communication

22:25

with , obviously one way , were

22:28

the decision makers in his industry

22:30

, because they were actively looking to

22:33

find all right , we're doing this

22:35

call center thing . What's the best equipment

22:37

? Oh , here's a podcast , here's

22:40

someone talking about it . They started listening

22:42

. He said eventually they would start reaching

22:44

out and being like , hey , this is so

22:47

much harder than we thought . Would

22:50

you want to come on and help us ? He's like yes

22:52

, this is my whole business .

22:54

That's amazing . I'm telling you . It's the

22:56

best sales tool ever . Actually , the more

22:58

niche your podcast , the more engaged

23:00

your audience . We

23:03

have a client who has an

23:05

open banking podcast and

23:07

who knew that there was literally a

23:09

cult-like following for open banking content

23:12

around the world .

23:12

What is open banking ?

23:15

This client of mine . So the podcast is called Mr Open

23:17

Banking and it's under our

23:19

client Axway in the US . They're based out of Phoenix

23:22

. They have two podcasts . They have one

23:24

which is business stories it's called Transform

23:26

it Forward . Then Al

23:28

Sivan , who is the host of Mr Open Banking

23:30

. He is an open banking expert , which is cross-border

23:32

banking , which

23:35

, yeah , no to people like you and I . We'd be like , okay

23:37

, I don't know if I would tune into an open banking

23:40

podcast in my spare time , but no , there

23:42

is a huge audience for

23:44

open banking content and it's one

23:46

of the most popular shows in our roster . It

23:49

actually makes sense because it's such a

23:51

niche topic and there's probably not

23:53

a lot of content on open banking . He

23:55

, like your friend , is reaching a

23:58

lot of those executives

24:00

, decision makers , open banking and

24:02

he's constantly getting poached because he

24:05

is creating content that is just a very

24:07

specific topic that not a lot of people

24:09

are . I always like to tell our clients

24:11

you need to fall under one of the three categories when

24:13

creating shows the

24:16

first , the best or different . If you're one

24:18

of those three categories , you're going to have a really good show

24:20

.

24:21

Yeah , I always talk to people about . You

24:23

really want to be the best in your

24:25

niche and you can define that as narrowly

24:28

as you want . If you want to be

24:30

the best interview show , well

24:32

, now you're going up against Terry

24:35

Groves and Ira Glass

24:37

and Joe Rogan and all these

24:39

big names . Yeah

24:41

, well , it's going to be hard . If you start

24:43

narrowing it , you can get

24:46

down to this very , very small

24:48

niche and that can feel

24:50

limiting . As a contact

24:52

creator , you're like oh , are there really people

24:54

who want to listen to my open banking podcast

24:57

or a podcast about setting up call

24:59

centers or whatever

25:01

you do , the podcast , dungeons and Dragons

25:04

, whatever your podcast may be about

25:06

? But the thing

25:08

that you gain when you niche

25:10

down is you make

25:12

it easy for your listeners to

25:15

find you and know within a minute this

25:17

is who I want to listen to . Yeah , I'll

25:19

give an example . One of my college

25:22

roommates was really into

25:24

weather and he would chase

25:26

tornadoes and loved hurricanes

25:28

. He

25:31

was the only one that I ever knew who was

25:33

like that . That was like

25:35

. I was like okay , that's something you are into

25:37

. Well , there's a whole group of people

25:39

. And eventually he met two

25:42

other people who were really into it . Now his

25:44

job is he films all

25:46

these weather events and sells the footage

25:48

to Netflix and news stations

25:51

. But he started a podcast

25:53

called Tornado Trackers and

25:55

it does exceptionally well because he's

25:58

not unique . He was unique

26:00

in the small college environment

26:02

that we were in , but he's not unique

26:04

when you reach a worldwide audience of

26:06

people who are like , oh , I'm really into weather

26:09

. And then when he put

26:11

that podcast , I kind of flew this flag

26:13

and all of a sudden people were like , well , yeah

26:15

, that's what I've been looking for my whole life

26:17

. And if there's anyone

26:19

who knew like my cousin's really

26:22

into weather and they heard about his podcast

26:24

, they go and they run to the cousin and they

26:26

go , hey , you've got to listen to this podcast , it's

26:29

actually for you . Where these really big

26:31

shows I rarely

26:33

listen to though I love it , this American

26:35

life and think , oh my gosh , this is for my dad

26:37

. I've got to go tell my dad this is the episode for

26:39

you or my cousin . But if there

26:41

was , when people have a specific

26:43

interest , it's very easy

26:46

to connect them to a specific

26:48

show .

26:49

Oh , totally , and it's interesting

26:51

because when clients

26:54

come to us and they say we want to do

26:56

an interview or an interview style podcast

26:58

where we're interviewing business leaders

27:01

, and I'm like , okay , great , so you want to compete with the guy

27:03

Razzes of the World ? There's already how

27:05

I built this . This is what I love

27:07

about eBay's podcast the

27:09

message . They

27:11

wanted to do the same thing , they wanted to interview business

27:13

leaders , but they actually decided to profile

27:16

the business failures . And

27:18

actually the only podcast out there that I think

27:20

actually does that , like all of these shows

27:23

out there that will interview success

27:25

stories , but no one actually focuses on the ones

27:27

that don't make it and why they don't make

27:29

it , and

27:32

I was really blown away when I listened to their

27:34

podcast . I think they may need some

27:36

help in the production department , but as

27:38

a concept it was like , wow , you've really nailed

27:41

, figuring out a niche that nobody else has

27:43

sort of monopolized yet as a brand too

27:45

, which is impressive eBay .

27:46

If you're listening , check out Quill

27:49

. They could definitely help you at that production

27:51

side . All right

27:53

, so here's something that I thought

27:55

about as I've experienced

27:58

more branded shows

28:00

and , like you said

28:02

, people started getting their phone number

28:04

, then their website , then their social

28:06

media . Well , phone

28:09

numbers are basically fungible . Everybody gets

28:11

a phone number , they're all just as good as any other phone

28:13

numbers . But then when it gets to a website and

28:16

social just

28:19

getting a website up , I

28:21

don't see almost any value in that unless

28:23

you're actually putting some effort into it and you're really

28:25

engaging your audience . And then in social , it even gets

28:27

. The stakes are even higher

28:29

where if you have like

28:31

a dead social account , okay , but

28:34

if you actually have actively , like you're not

28:37

engaging your audience or maybe you're even offending

28:39

your audience . You

28:42

really need to be brand appropriate

28:44

and sometimes just kind

28:46

of just doing it because you

28:48

have to do it doesn't really get you

28:50

anything . So my question

28:52

is how does a brand

28:55

approach a podcast , in a way to say we

28:57

want to be brand safe , we want to

28:59

be on point , we want the production

29:02

to match the brand that we're building

29:04

? We may be incredible in shoes , but

29:06

we're not incredible in audio . How

29:08

do they do all that ?

29:10

That's a really good question . It's

29:12

interesting because it's really finding that balance

29:14

between understanding that you know people

29:17

connect with you based on your personal stories

29:20

, not carefully crafted tweets or scripts

29:22

, and so you really want to make

29:24

sure that there's an authenticity

29:26

component to the content that

29:29

you're putting out . And you know

29:31

it's always really difficult to sort of find that bridge

29:33

when it is a brand , because there's so much at least

29:35

you know red tape around what you can and can't say

29:38

. I was

29:40

reminded of , like , when you brought that question up

29:42

. It reminded me of the Justine Sacco story . Do

29:44

you remember that whole scandal with them ?

29:46

I don't think so .

29:47

Justine Sacco was a PR executive

29:49

who worked at IAB , which is the holding

29:51

company that they

29:53

owned Match and Tinder I

29:55

think they still do and she was getting

29:58

on a flight to South Africa and she tweeted

30:00

going to South Africa hope I don't get AIDS

30:03

. Just kidding , I'm white and

30:05

she thought she was being funny . And by the time she

30:07

landed in Cape Town , a reporter had

30:10

found this tweet . It had been retweeted

30:12

thousands and thousands of time . There's

30:15

paparazzi waiting for at Cape Town airport

30:17

. The hashtag has Justine landed yet

30:19

was trending and , of course , she'd made international

30:21

headlines and been fired . So think about the

30:24

publicity that Tinder

30:26

and Match and these holding companies got

30:28

from it . And it's a perfect example of

30:30

you can say one stupid thing

30:32

on air and digital lives forever . That can

30:35

absolutely ruin this brand that you've spent

30:37

so long building . So

30:39

don't be a Justine Sacco . The rule of

30:41

thumb is don't say anything that

30:43

you wouldn't want plastered on a billboard with your company

30:45

logo next to it , and don't say anything that

30:47

you wouldn't want your mom reading . Those

30:50

are sort of my two benchmarks for what you

30:52

shouldn't shouldn't say and in terms

30:54

of you know , making sure that your

30:56

online and offline brand matches

30:58

, whether you're a content creator or a company

31:01

. I think it's really about telling

31:03

a business story in a way that actually resonates

31:06

with the audience . So not carefully crafted tweets

31:08

, but bringing in a personal element

31:10

to it . So the

31:13

personal anecdote story that you recently just

31:15

shared actually in the earlier part of our interview was like

31:17

the perfect example I would say

31:19

the Ben and Jerry's example

31:21

that I shared really where they talk

31:23

about their personal stories and why

31:25

they decided to advocate for the

31:27

Black Lives Matter movement and why

31:30

they decided to put people before profits

31:32

, like explaining all of that in a way that really humanizes

31:35

you rather than being promotional

31:37

and salesy . That is always the

31:39

goal when it comes to creating good content .

31:42

That's a good distinction . A

31:44

lot of brands I see , once they get

31:46

a platform , they think the goal of this

31:48

platform is to get

31:50

more sales and you're basically

31:53

building a podcast so you don't have to buy

31:55

the ads on the same podcast . But

31:58

it's kind of a different message . If

32:01

you're just being salesy and you're just buying

32:04

advertisements , then you probably are

32:06

just trying to say something along the lines of

32:08

hey , coca-cola , it's delicious

32:10

, you love it ? Go

32:13

buy some . Versus , a actual

32:15

branded podcast , you are telling the story

32:17

of your brand . Here's the values we

32:19

have , here's how we're trying to change the

32:21

world , here's what we're doing for our employees , our

32:23

customers , et cetera . But

32:28

how does the , I guess , still

32:31

the technical work of recording

32:33

a podcast , of branding

32:36

it , of getting it to sound as

32:38

polished as maybe

32:42

you are in your shoes

32:44

or in your lipsticks or in whatever thing you

32:46

actually are creating ? You're probably not

32:49

exceptional at creating audio

32:51

, especially stories for audio

32:53

. Are there things that you

32:55

would recommend clients , potential

32:58

clients , brands looking at building

33:00

a podcast ?

33:00

I mean , if you're a brand , you should be working with an agency

33:03

, if you have budget , you should be working with an

33:05

agency , and if not , an agency , there's some really

33:07

great freelancers out there that you can

33:09

also tap into , and I think

33:11

there's this misconception that you have to spend

33:13

a lot of money to create a really good show

33:15

. Serial was created on a very limited

33:18

production budget , and I

33:20

think people sometimes forget that you don't

33:22

really need to pump hundreds of thousands

33:25

of dollars into creating a really high quality

33:27

podcast , and there's obviously

33:29

the basics that everyone should know . Don't

33:32

record on your phone , don't record on Zoom

33:34

. I was very excited to get

33:36

a Riverside link from you because I was like okay

33:38

, he obviously knows what he's doing . Riverside

33:41

is my favorite platform , one of the least

33:43

glitchy , sound , optimized recording softwares

33:46

, and it's so simple to navigate . But

33:48

hey , I'll even settle for a Zencaster

33:50

or a Squadcast or

33:52

one of those platforms Zenfeed . Don't

33:55

use conference calls , don't use Anchor

33:57

. Don't use anything free . If it's free , there's

34:00

usually a reason for it , and

34:02

so that would be my first thing , like don't compromise

34:04

on audio quality . The second

34:07

would be it actually isn't very expensive

34:09

to hire an editor to

34:11

clean up your audio and input , some music and

34:13

even transitional signposts and

34:15

soundscapes to really tell that story and

34:18

give listeners a break from the conversation

34:20

. You can use generalist

34:22

platforms like Fiverr and Upwork to hire

34:24

someone , even offshore , for like $20

34:27

. They could do it per episode , so

34:30

you're not looking at a huge capital lift . And

34:33

then there's investing

34:35

in a good microphone and investing in good headphones

34:38

, making sure that you

34:40

are distributing

34:42

your show on all of the channels . So not just

34:44

Spotify , apple and Google

34:46

, which are the main ones , but there's Cast Box

34:48

and Overcast and Stitcher

34:51

and iHeart and a lot of the smaller players

34:53

as well , where a lot of people consume their content

34:56

. Making sure that you're working on the organic

34:58

side . Podcasting is a marathon

35:00

. It's not a sprint Like

35:03

your friend who gave up seven years into

35:05

the game . It's

35:07

like building your personal brand . You're

35:09

going to see momentum slowly over

35:11

time , and it's about continuous

35:13

growth and one day you're going to wake up and you're going

35:15

to have two million followers or two

35:18

million downloads , like Jordan Harbinger . But that

35:20

was not an overnight success .

35:22

All right . So you started touching on growing

35:24

a podcast . Growing

35:26

a podcast in my experience has been exceptionally

35:29

difficult because podcasting

35:31

doesn't have an algorithm and we are really

35:33

having to connect

35:36

to our audience and then convince

35:38

them to listen to the show and then retain them

35:40

. It's quite a long process to get somebody

35:42

to listen to the show . And

35:44

when I think about pitching , let's

35:47

say I'm pitching my boss at Salesforce

35:49

saying , hey , you should start a podcast . You

35:53

know , if two months in we're looking at download

35:55

numbers and we're only seeing a thousand downloads

35:57

per episode , I think it'd be pretty easy

35:59

for them to say can it ? We're

36:02

not spending VP

36:04

level time interviewing people

36:06

or having these conversations if

36:09

we can't reach more than 50,000

36:11

customers . One , is that

36:13

the right way to think about it ? And

36:15

then two , how do we grow a podcast so

36:17

that we know it's successful ?

36:19

So yes and no , I do understand

36:21

the ROI justification and I spend like

36:23

90% of my day convincing

36:26

and talking to brands about it's usually

36:28

the CFOs and the CEOs and explaining

36:30

what the ROI of podcasting is , and

36:33

what I would say is that it's not about the

36:35

mass downloads . If you're looking for

36:37

you know the 50,000 people

36:39

reach , then you should be doing

36:41

digital advertising , like it's all about

36:43

the Google and the Facebook ads and Reddit

36:46

and LinkedIn ads . Everything

36:49

is about reaching a niche audience and it's all

36:51

about the engagement piece , and

36:53

so this medium shouldn't be looked at from how

36:55

many downloads do you have ? It should be looked at . Yes

36:57

, downloads matter , but how engages

36:59

your audience ? Are they listening all the way through

37:01

to the end of your content ? Are they dropping

37:03

off in the first 10 minutes or are they staying on

37:05

until your conclusion ? What's

37:08

your average consumption rate ? Those are the metrics

37:10

that I need to be looking at , not just your

37:12

number of unique listeners . I

37:15

do understand the ROI justification

37:17

. Especially if you're a Salesforce , you're probably putting

37:19

a lot of capital into your show , and

37:22

that's where having a production agency that

37:24

really specializes in audience growth helps

37:26

, because those folks can

37:28

really , like Quill spends

37:31

majority of their time when it comes to marketing

37:33

shows , we don't focus on the organic tactics

37:35

. We're not doing social media for clients

37:37

or writing out blogs . Clients can do that

37:39

themselves . We're doing things like paid advertising

37:42

. So Spotify , ad studio , podcast

37:45

, addict , overcast ads . We're

37:48

doing the very industry specific targeted

37:51

ads that are very ROI

37:53

and data driven . So for every dollar you're

37:55

putting in , you're seeing how much

37:58

money of that is coming back to you and unique listeners

38:00

and downloads , and

38:02

so that's how you sort of have to approach your

38:04

podcast . It's almost like how you approach your

38:06

business . It's like the justification

38:09

of spend really needs to come down to

38:11

how you're measuring your analytics and your metrics

38:13

, and it's a combination of data driven marketing

38:16

with also benchmarking and

38:18

realistic expectations .

38:20

So talk to me a little bit about some

38:22

of those tactics . You said Spotify ad studio

38:25

, overcast ads , podcast

38:27

addict . How do those tactics

38:29

work ?

38:30

Yeah . So I would say the

38:32

marketing tactics that we explore are

38:34

sort of broken up into a few different categories

38:37

. In terms of paid advertising , what

38:39

we do is a ton of promotion on the listening platforms

38:42

. So unfortunately , apple is

38:44

not open to advertising not yet anyways

38:47

but all of the other platforms are , and

38:49

so things like Spotify

38:51

ad studio . You can target people

38:54

in Spotify who are already listening

38:56

to podcasts , based on age , location

38:58

as well as interests . So what other similar

39:01

shows are they already listening to that are comparable

39:03

to yours ? So it's a very warm lead and

39:05

pretty high conversion rates . We

39:07

actually were one of the first

39:10

agencies on ad studio , so we've worked very

39:12

closely with the Spotify product team

39:15

to sort of evolve with

39:17

them throughout their ad studio journey . And

39:20

they have a $250 minimum spend

39:22

, so if you're not a big brand , you can advertise

39:24

with them , and Spotify actually

39:26

recently launched this year

39:28

they launched a marketplace as well . That's very

39:30

similar to megaphone and a cast , where

39:32

for a particular ad spend let's say

39:34

you have $1,000 to spare you

39:37

can invest that into their marketplace and

39:39

they take the top 20 shows in your

39:41

category and they advertise on

39:43

those podcasts , which

39:45

is a really great way of reaching a very dedicated listener

39:47

base that are seeking out your content , so

39:50

listening platforms is definitely the way to

39:52

go . Podcast

39:54

addict is the Android version of Apple

39:56

podcasts and , unlike Apple

39:59

, they actually allow advertising , and the

40:01

cool thing about them is they can give

40:03

you impressions , that they can give you how many

40:05

people clicked on the ad which Spotify does too

40:07

and they also show you how many people subscribed

40:10

to your podcast . And then , under

40:12

your hosting platform like Buzzsprout or Simplecast

40:15

, you can go to the technology section and

40:17

you can actually see how many of those people converted

40:19

into podcast downloads . So

40:22

you can get pretty accurate with , like

40:24

you know , figuring out how far

40:26

your dollars can stretch and what your customer acquisition

40:29

rate is , and similar to these two metrics

40:31

. There's , you know , overcast . There's

40:34

like so many

40:36

paid megaphones marketplace does

40:38

really well . Acast

40:40

recently launched one as well . Yeah

40:43

, like , like , castbox is another one . They're

40:45

usually sold out of ad slots , but if you can get

40:47

your hands on one , they're great . I'm

40:49

trying to think of what else we do from a paid . I

40:51

think that's it . From the paid side of things

40:53

. We find social ads don't work . Social

40:56

ads are really great for likes and comments

40:58

and engagement , but don't do anything

41:00

for podcast downloads . And

41:03

then there's the industry specific tactics . Like

41:05

we apply for all of the awards , we have

41:07

a master sheet of all of the podcasting

41:10

awards to get on people's radar

41:12

. We write articles for different publications

41:14

on best podcast to tune into

41:17

. So I'm one of the writers for various

41:19

publications on that . We own

41:21

the quill reviews , which is very similar to pod chaser

41:24

where we write out customized

41:26

reviews on different shows . So people for

41:28

SEO really helps them with their visibility

41:31

. For new listeners , contests

41:33

are a really great way of spiking Apple podcast

41:36

reviews and then if you're doing a contest

41:38

, simultaneously to that you should be filling out Apple's

41:40

placement form so that they can

41:42

catch with of the fact that your contest

41:45

is really spiking your reviews and your downloads

41:47

, which means if they pick you up for their new and

41:49

noteworthy section , that's a whole

41:51

other ballgame of visibility

41:54

that you haven't even initially considered

41:56

.

41:56

So for smaller podcasts , especially

41:58

indie podcasts , Apple

42:01

new and noteworthy is something that they really want

42:03

to get involved in . It sounds like you actually

42:05

have a little bit of a secret

42:07

on how to get listed in Apple doing noteworthy

42:10

.

42:10

Yes , it is a little bit of a trade

42:12

hack that I'm sharing with everyone . Quill

42:15

doesn't believe in holding anything close to

42:17

us . We love collaborating competitors

42:20

and all . The best way to get on

42:22

Apple's new and noteworthy section is to do a contest

42:25

, external or internal facing . If

42:27

you're a company that's more than 500 people

42:29

, I recommend that you do an internal facing contest

42:32

and if you're a smaller organization

42:34

or even just an indie content

42:36

creator , then do an external facing one

42:38

. Your call to action should be subscribed

42:41

to my show and leave me an Apple podcast

42:43

review and then , once you see

42:45

those spike in Apple podcast reviews

42:48

, your price can be 10

42:50

gift cards to small businesses around

42:52

the US or North America

42:54

. Please don't do Amazon . We don't

42:56

want to make Jeff Bezos any richer than he is . And

43:00

then , once you see those spike in reviews coming

43:02

through , you should apply on Apple's webpage

43:05

on their Apple placement form , and

43:07

this form is for anyone who wants additional

43:10

visibility through Apple and they

43:12

can cross collaborate to

43:14

see if the show is worth it for

43:16

them . But if they're seeing the type of analytics you're

43:18

bringing in through your contest , it's kind

43:20

of a no brainer for them .

43:22

Oh , that's incredible . It's a great way to try

43:24

to go around and figure out how to get into Apple podcasts

43:27

New and noteworthy yeah .

43:29

Our clients at Sick Kids Hospital just got featured

43:31

a few weeks ago and their listeners

43:33

spiked like 30%

43:37

over the period that Apple picked up their show

43:39

.

43:39

Wow , that's incredible . So

43:42

do you see over time that people actually stick

43:44

with the show after that spike from

43:46

Apple New and Noteworthy ? Do most

43:48

people just listen and drop off , or are they

43:50

actually sticking around ?

43:51

Yeah . So for most of our clients , our retention

43:54

is amazing and that's something that we very closely

43:56

monitor . Our retention curve is , like , probably

43:58

the most important metric for us

44:00

making sure that anyone we're driving to the

44:02

show is staying on for future episodes . I

44:04

would say that 100% comes down to content

44:07

Retention . If people are dropping

44:09

off within the first 10 minutes of your show like

44:11

your content needs work , maybe your production quality

44:13

needs work

44:16

. It shows that it's not a authentic contest

44:18

. People are coming on subscribing

44:21

and then bouncing as soon as they claim their prize

44:23

, so it's a really good learning

44:25

opportunity for you . What

44:27

are you doing ? What could you be doing differently to retain

44:29

those listeners ?

44:31

I like . The other tactic

44:33

that you kind of alluded to is buying ads

44:35

inside of these podcast apps , and you differentiated

44:38

that from buying ads on social . I

44:41

, from talking to thousands

44:43

of podcasters , have never

44:45

I've talked to one person who

44:47

claims he can do it . I've

44:50

never seen anyone show me

44:52

anything , except losing a vast

44:54

amount of money on Facebook ads or social

44:56

ads when trying to grow a

44:58

podcast . Because and this is my theory

45:00

at least you are giving people

45:03

a little taste of a podcast but

45:05

you have no knowledge of whether

45:07

or not they actually have a podcast listening habit

45:09

. And if they don't have a podcast

45:11

listening habit already , it's

45:14

a hard ask to be like hey

45:16

, you like that 30 seconds of this podcast

45:18

? All right , go ahead , download a

45:20

new app . Then , yeah , it's

45:22

the purple app that's been on your phone forever . Okay

45:24

, undelete that , subscribe

45:26

to the show and now start listening to me . That's

45:29

a really big lift versus

45:32

somebody is already in . If someone's

45:34

already listening on Podcast Addict , they

45:36

actually aren't using a default app . This is

45:38

an app they downloaded or they're using Overcast

45:41

. It's not the default app . They are a podcast

45:43

junkie and

45:45

then they see this ad for

45:47

a show that may be perfect for

45:49

their brand . That's a very

45:52

light ask to say click it , listen

45:54

to an episode and , if you like it , subscribe

45:57

. The

45:59

connection to the ROI is so

46:01

much better than social ads .

46:04

It's not possible . I can pretty much guarantee

46:06

it . Like social , we've done so much advertising

46:09

on all of the social platforms from LinkedIn

46:11

, reddit , twitter , facebook , google . You're

46:15

wasting your money if your success metric

46:17

is podcast downloads . If you

46:20

want likes and comments on your social posts

46:22

and brand awareness and by all means drop

46:24

that money it's about brand awareness

46:26

and reaching mass audiences but I can pretty much

46:29

guarantee at this point it's not going

46:31

to equate to podcasting downloads . It's

46:33

kind of a shot at the dark . They're hoping

46:35

something sticks , whereas the listing platforms

46:37

they're already listening to podcasts

46:40

, which is a very small subset of the market

46:42

right now . So you want it to be

46:44

a warm lead and you want it to be very targeted

46:46

. And actually another

46:48

tactic that I didn't mention that I probably

46:50

should give them a shout out because they're amazing is

46:52

if you are a new podcast , I highly

46:55

recommend advertising on industry

46:57

newsletters . I religiously read

46:59

pod news every morning , and so

47:01

any new podcasts that are launching that are being

47:03

advertised in pod news , I'm subscribing to

47:05

them . And then pod move is

47:08

another one , which is podcast movements . Buzzsprout

47:10

has one as well . I don't know if you

47:12

do advertising externally , but

47:14

I don't think you do . I think you're just . I read

47:16

yours religiously . Pacific content is

47:18

another one , but pod move

47:20

and podcast movement are two that I highly recommend

47:23

. All the industry consumers are

47:25

reading that article or newsletter and

47:27

so such a warm way

47:29

of reaching those qualified leads

47:31

. But social is a no go .

47:34

Social media has always been , has this promise

47:36

out there and it's like , oh , if you can do social media

47:38

, then you'll do exceptionally well . And

47:41

from a business marketing

47:43

perspective to podcast marketing

47:45

, to a lot of stuff I'm like

47:47

social is a good place to connect

47:50

with your audience , to do some social listening

47:52

, to learn about your customers

47:55

. I have

47:57

struggled so hard in

47:59

convincing people you meet

48:01

on social to buy from you later

48:03

or to listen to your podcast or

48:05

take actions out of social

48:07

media , because the time

48:10

that you're spending on Tik Tok or on Twitter

48:12

or on Instagram or wherever you

48:14

are , it's often

48:16

these moments that are just kind of filling a little

48:18

bit of a void . You're like , oh , I have nothing going on right

48:20

now and I'll flip open my phone and check something

48:22

out . It's pretty difficult as

48:25

certain types of brands

48:27

to , through organic reach

48:29

, get people and say , hey , why

48:31

don't you go take an action right now , when

48:34

all those platforms are also very targeted

48:36

on the only people who really

48:39

get access , to get people off

48:41

the platform or really the people paying the

48:43

money to do that .

48:45

Yeah , I mean , I think you sort of hit the

48:47

nail on the head , which is it's a really great

48:49

way for you to connect and understand

48:52

who your listeners are . One of our clients

48:54

at the end of or at the beginning

48:56

of their podcast , they always say tweet

48:58

at me and let me know where you are and what you're

49:01

doing , and so you'll have people on their

49:03

feed who are tuning in from New Mexico

49:05

, Dubai , Egypt

49:07

and they're walking their dogs or they're driving

49:10

to work , and it's such a great

49:12

engagement tool . It's such a great way to know who your

49:14

audience is , what they're doing and

49:16

get to know them better . But beyond

49:19

that , I don't think social and podcast

49:21

downloads have much correlation .

49:23

That's a really interesting idea to build

49:25

engagement on social for your

49:28

podcast . It's a great way to get some feedback

49:30

. I'm definitely going to use that one and recommend that

49:32

to other podcasters . Definitely so

49:34

one other thing that

49:37

I think we've talked a lot about brands

49:41

, but a lot of the people who BuzzFront reaches

49:43

and a lot of people that will watch this show or

49:46

listen to this podcast , are

49:48

indie podcasters , and

49:50

they're often people who are building a personal

49:53

brand , and so I know you have a lot

49:55

of thoughts about building a personal brand , especially

49:57

when it comes to public speaking

50:00

. So can you give me the pitch for why should

50:02

people be talking in public and how

50:04

? Why should we even be building a personal brand

50:06

at all ?

50:07

Yeah , I mean , look , everybody

50:09

has a personal brand . It's what people are

50:11

saying about you when you're not in the room , and

50:14

so if you already have a personal brand

50:16

, you might as well refine it , hone

50:18

it and work on the positioning and messaging of

50:20

how you you know , sort

50:22

of what you want to leave behind

50:25

. I would say I

50:27

think that there's three reasons why it's

50:29

important to have a personal brand . The first is

50:32

we all know when we're about to

50:34

go on that date , hire someone

50:36

, apply for that job , the first thing that

50:38

people are going to do is Google you , and if

50:40

the first thing that comes up are pictures of you

50:42

drinking tequila in high school , then it , you

50:44

know , not really going to help you stand out . The

50:47

second thing that I find really cool is that you can

50:49

choose what you want your personal brand to be around

50:51

. Mine happens to be podcasting

50:53

, but you

50:56

can choose what you want your brand to look like

50:58

, and that is a really cool thing . You can

51:00

refine and control that narrative . And

51:02

I would say the last thing is

51:05

that you know , we all

51:07

like you know , whether it's looking

51:09

for a job or whether it's hiring , or whether it's

51:11

connections or contacts

51:14

. Your personal network knows you for your

51:16

personal brand and the stronger your network and

51:18

your brand , the more you can leverage and the

51:20

more you can tap into people . And so

51:22

you know , I wouldn't necessarily say public

51:24

speaking is the way to go . I would say , if

51:27

you enjoy public speaking and you're good

51:29

at it , then absolutely it's a lot

51:31

of work but it's a really great way of connecting

51:34

with people and , you know , building your network

51:36

one handshake at a time . But I

51:38

talked to so many people who want to build their brand

51:40

and they want to start speaking , and the

51:42

first question I asked them is well , do you enjoy speaking

51:45

? And they're like , oh no , I hate public

51:47

speaking , I'm so scared of it . Then why would you

51:49

want to spend so many hours building

51:52

your brand around a tactic that you're not good

51:54

at and you don't enjoy ? You know

51:56

, building your personal brand is a full-time job

51:58

. It's again like podcasting , a marathon

52:01

out of sprint . And if you're going to be spending

52:03

so many hours , please choose something that

52:05

you're good at , that's aligned with your skillset

52:07

and that you know feels

52:09

authentic to your brand . I'm sure

52:11

you love podcasting , albin . I mean I

52:13

can just tell from this like hour

52:16

and a half that we've been talking , that you probably

52:18

really enjoy speaking to people

52:20

. It would be very obvious to

52:22

me if you didn't , and if you weren't good at it

52:24

.

52:25

I think I had an interview with Kate Casey

52:27

who does a podcast called Reality

52:29

Life with Kate Casey and she said you really

52:31

can't compete with somebody who enjoys

52:34

what they're doing . She

52:36

has five children , she started multiple

52:38

businesses , she's running a

52:40

ultra successful podcast , she's doing so

52:42

much stuff . I was like when do you recharge

52:44

? And she's like this is the recharge , like this

52:46

is what I love to do . And

52:49

it's very difficult to

52:51

compete with people who are enjoying something . If you're

52:53

enjoying it , then you're going to do exceptionally

52:55

well and you're going to make the

52:57

time for it . But if

52:59

, like you know , it's good to face your

53:02

fears , but if you're realizing

53:04

like I had a realization

53:06

at some point that the practice of

53:08

law was not the thing I was ever going to love

53:10

, then you kind of need to pivot

53:12

away from that so that you can be

53:14

in an area where you will succeed just

53:17

by virtue of enjoying

53:19

the thing that you're doing .

53:20

Definitely . I had no idea you were a lawyer , by

53:22

the way . That's so interesting . You've

53:25

always been Albin the podcasting guy

53:29

I have always been .

53:30

I've been in podcasting a lot longer than I was ever

53:32

in law , I guess . So very

53:35

short time , short-lived legal

53:37

career . One thing , though , that I see with personal brands a lot

53:40

is imposter syndrome . We

53:42

either get people who are

53:44

like not an expert at all

53:46

, and then they're hosting clubhouse

53:48

rooms giving advice that is just totally

53:51

off the wall and not accurate , and then

53:54

, on the other end , we have pretty accomplished

53:57

people who still , by

54:00

virtue of them , seeing how much

54:02

they could grow personally , they

54:04

see , oh , I'm not qualified

54:07

yet to speak on this subject , and they

54:09

hold themselves back . How do

54:11

we help people especially people who are already

54:13

qualified to start speaking

54:16

and building a personal brand ? How do

54:18

we help them get over that hurdle ?

54:20

I think imposter syndrome is very

54:23

normal for just everybody

54:25

in the and not just in the podcasting industry

54:28

. But when I look around in my network especially

54:30

women I find that they're very afraid

54:32

of coming across as too promotional

54:35

or opinionated or assertive , and

54:37

they don't want to put up their hand

54:39

and take credit for their ideas or promote

54:41

themselves and build

54:43

their brand . And oftentimes I always

54:46

like to remind people that you are CEOs

54:48

of your own personal brand and if you don't advocate

54:51

for yourself , nobody else will

54:53

. That's not to say that I don't ever feel

54:55

imposter syndrome , but I also

54:57

try to remind myself that nobody else

54:59

has more or less of a right to be doing exactly what

55:01

I'm doing Really . The difference

55:03

is just going for it . And so , on

55:06

the days where I'm not feeling particularly

55:08

confident , what I do is I overprepare

55:11

, and over preparation

55:13

equates to confidence , means that

55:15

you don't leave the room for imposter syndrome .

55:18

I really like that answer . I can

55:21

see that myself sometimes , that the

55:24

moments where I'm very anxious about doing

55:26

an interview or something , you put in

55:28

another hour or two of

55:30

research and you start writing

55:32

out your answers , your potential questions

55:34

. It really does start to dissolve

55:37

some of that fear .

55:38

Absolutely 100% . I love that

55:41

, and I think that this is

55:43

for everyone across the board . If you are going

55:47

to be judged on a critical lens , the

55:49

margin of error is very low , and so you

55:52

shouldn't give people the opportunity

55:54

, or yourself the opportunity , to

55:56

not be overprepared for every opportunity

55:58

you walk into .

56:00

One thing I've also noticed sometimes

56:02

is helpful for people with imposter syndrome

56:05

is remembering . It's

56:07

very difficult for a true beginner

56:10

to learn from an expert . A

56:12

lot of times a beginner needs to learn from

56:14

someone who's just like bug in or plus

56:17

or maybe like an intermediate level , and

56:20

so if you're

56:22

six months into your podcasting

56:24

journey , sharing , hey , here's what it's

56:27

been like for me , here's some of the hurdles that I've overcome

56:30

, here's some of the stuff I've learned . You

56:32

could think , well , what about somebody who's already been doing this

56:34

for 10 years ? You know , I'm not at the

56:36

same level as them . Well , there's actually

56:38

people who can't really learn from the 10-year

56:41

veteran . I think of Terry Gross as

56:43

one of the best interviewers , especially

56:45

podcast interviewers now , and the

56:49

stuff that she talks about is so far

56:51

above my level that I often

56:53

think I don't even know how applicable

56:55

this is To me . It's hard to

56:57

learn , but if there was somebody who has , you

57:00

know , may not feel empowered yet

57:02

to teach their tactics

57:04

and things they've learned , those actually might be

57:06

the things that are just two , three levels

57:08

above me that now are

57:10

speaking right to the lessons

57:12

I need to learn .

57:14

It's like that simple phrase or quote there's something

57:17

or someone for everyone . I

57:19

like truly believe that when it comes to content

57:21

as well .

57:23

That's a good . There's your . If your content

57:25

can be for just a few people , it

57:27

can be their content soulmate .

57:29

And yeah , exactly Content soulmate

57:31

I love that and you can't you can't be everything

57:33

to everyone , and if you're creating your podcast to

57:36

try to reach everyone you're , you're

57:38

already setting yourself up to fail All right

57:40

.

57:40

So , lastly , before we go , you

57:43

have also started a conference that's really

57:45

specializing in helping brands understand

57:47

branded content and podcasting

57:49

. Covid kind of wrecked the first

57:52

one . It stopped you from having the second year , but

57:54

listen in , conference is coming in 2022

57:57

. Tell us about this conference and

57:59

what you're doing .

58:00

It's coming . I mean , unless the Delta

58:03

variant decides to mess it up again

58:05

for us . We are hoping

58:07

to be able to pull it off this year . So

58:09

we the first couple of years , like last

58:11

year and this year , we're supposed to have our conference

58:13

in LA at the Millennium Biltmore

58:15

. The entire conference is

58:17

about supporting brands who are creating

58:20

branded podcasts and , you know , helping

58:22

them take their shows to the next level . So it's a mix

58:24

of corporations and Fortune 500

58:27

companies who are interested in podcasting

58:29

, along with industry professionals

58:31

like yourself . Our

58:34

headliner is Sarah Kaining . I know we talked about

58:36

her early in this interview , so she it's a full

58:39

circle moment for for me

58:41

, because she was the reason that

58:43

I got into the industry and started consuming

58:45

shows , and so last

58:47

year , when I was thinking about who I wanted as our

58:49

headliner , it was kind of a no brainer . I wanted

58:51

to go back to the roots . So

58:54

she's coming out to talk about just

58:56

the impact that podcasts can have on brands

58:58

, as well as how to create really good content

59:01

, and I think hopefully

59:03

by then , season four of Serial should also

59:05

be launching . So hopefully we can also

59:07

get some intel from her on what that

59:10

might look like . But

59:12

yes , I really hope to see everyone there . It's

59:14

going to be on June 23rd , 2022

59:17

, plenty of time for this , you know

59:19

, interesting year to be over . I

59:21

hope to see all of you there , whether you're a content creator

59:23

, whether you're a brand , whether you're an industry

59:25

professional . It'll be some really

59:28

great networking and it's LA it's always a

59:30

good time .

59:30

It's always a good time . It's actually the hotel that

59:33

I think podcast movement Evolutions is

59:35

mostly held in , and it's

59:37

a great venue and just a blast

59:39

to be in downtown LA . So

59:43

, fatima , before we go , tell

59:45

us I know you're pretty much active

59:47

on all social media , but

59:50

if people want to connect with Quill , if they

59:52

want to build a branded podcast , where

59:54

should they find you ?

59:55

Yeah , so if you want to find me , it's

59:57

not hard . I'm pretty much everywhere , all

59:59

of the channels . Linkedin the only thing

1:00:01

I'm not on is TikTok . I just like haven't

1:00:03

given into it . But LinkedIn

1:00:06

, facebook , instagram , twitter , zady

1:00:08

a Fatima is my handle . Quill

1:00:11

Inc is the handle across all of our channels

1:00:13

. If you are listening today , please

1:00:15

tweet at Albin and I and let us know

1:00:17

who you are , where you are and what you're doing

1:00:20

. Albin , what handle should everyone be tweeting

1:00:22

at us ?

1:00:23

Well , I'm always at Albin Brooks , so

1:00:25

you can find me there .

1:00:26

Perfect , and we'll definitely tweet

1:00:29

back , and that's how we start the engagement

1:00:31

.

1:00:31

Sounds great . Thank you so much for being

1:00:34

generous through your time and spending the day with us . Hopefully

1:00:37

we'll talk to you soon .

1:00:38

Thank you for having me .