0:00

Daddy gang picture this it's

0:03

a typical day for you. You just got

0:05

off of work you go pick up a

0:07

pizza You head over to

0:09

your boyfriend's house for dinner and you

0:11

guys are just hanging out and you eventually

0:14

start having one of those Emotionally

0:17

deep conversations that goes on

0:19

for hours about just

0:21

the status of your relationship. You've been dating for seven

0:23

months You're just trying to figure out are we doing

0:25

this or we not? Eventually, you're

0:27

exhausted you decide you're staying together. You're

0:29

happy you're in love you go to

0:32

bed and Then

0:34

imagine at 3 a.m. You're

0:36

woken up and blinded by

0:39

a bright white light laser

0:42

beams across your body and you

0:45

hear a taser go off somewhere in the

0:47

room a voice you

0:50

don't recognize tells your boyfriend to

0:52

lay on his stomach and Commands

0:55

you to tie him up You

0:59

just woke up you're confused you're disoriented

1:01

you have absolutely no idea what the fuck

1:03

is going on who are these

1:05

people or What are they here

1:07

and what do they want? and The

1:10

next thing you know you have blacked

1:12

out swim goggles

1:15

put over your eyes so you can't

1:17

see anything and headphones

1:19

are placed over your ears you

1:22

hear wind chimes and strange

1:25

recorded voice telling you Someone

1:28

is gonna take your vitals and give you

1:30

a sedative to calm you down Nothing

1:33

is making sense or adding up.

1:35

You're struggling to process what is

1:37

happening you're taken out

1:39

of the room with the

1:42

man and Suddenly

1:44

this guy says to you This

1:47

wasn't meant for you But

1:49

loads you into the truck of his

1:51

car and you are taken away and

1:55

You fall asleep from the sedative and you wake

1:57

up in a cabin daddy gang. This is a

1:59

true story. This is Denise

2:02

Huskin story. And this is the

2:04

story of a woman who was kidnapped, raped,

2:07

survived, and then came out to realize

2:09

that the world thought she had completely

2:11

put on an entire hoax that she

2:13

made all of this up and did

2:15

not believe her story. I'm so excited

2:18

to sit down with her today and talk

2:20

to her about her experience. If any of

2:22

these subject matters could be sensitive to you

2:24

or triggers, please, maybe this is

2:26

when you tune out and I'll see you

2:28

next week. For those that are view are

2:30

going to stick around and listen. Here

2:33

is Denise Huskins. What

2:38

is up, Daddy gang? It is

2:40

your founding father, Alex Cooper, with

2:42

Call Her Daddy. Denise

2:46

Huskins, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Thank

2:49

you. How are you doing today?

2:54

Every day is a

2:56

mixed bag of emotion. I'm good, all in all, I'm

2:58

good. But then there's just

3:02

still, my

3:06

body is just processing a lot of

3:08

stress and stuff

3:11

from the past. It's really nice

3:13

to be able to speak and share about

3:17

what happened and how

3:20

we've gotten through it. But

3:22

it also just brings up a

3:24

lot of deep-seated pain. For

3:28

context to everyone watching or listening,

3:30

the story of your kidnapping was

3:33

told in a Netflix documentary recently,

3:35

American Nightmare, which was

3:38

at the top of the charts. It

3:40

had like 21 million plus streams. As

3:43

interesting as it is for people to

3:45

consume that type of content, it's your

3:47

life and everyone was watching it. How

3:49

did you feel when you saw

3:52

the world watching and experiencing your story

3:54

for the first time? It

4:00

was certainly surreal, but the Netflix

4:03

experience, you know, that like it

4:05

drops in 190 countries and there's,

4:07

you know, millions and millions of all

4:10

of a sudden. So now it's just

4:12

like, I mean,

4:14

it's overwhelming and incredibly positive. People

4:18

from all over the world sharing their

4:20

stories with me, I mean,

4:23

calling me brave and a badass

4:26

and all these

4:28

wonderful compliments. But

4:31

at the same time, I'm like, you know,

4:33

at home on the couch curled in a

4:35

ball, my stomach sick, like a lot of

4:37

that, that fear that

4:39

terror. You

4:43

know, I mean, I spent two days in captivity

4:45

believing I would be killed in

4:48

complete shock that I'm released. So

4:51

yeah, it's just the exposure,

4:53

the public exposure is so

4:55

intertwined with the

4:57

thought of being killed that it's like really

4:59

hard for my body to differentiate the two.

5:01

It's like, okay, I know I'm safe. I

5:03

know that. And like most

5:06

of most of

5:08

the attention is very positive right now. So it's

5:10

very different. But it's still

5:12

like my body doesn't know the difference. I do

5:14

kind of want to go back to the beginning

5:16

because I'm sure people are sitting here and we're

5:18

talking about a Netflix doc. And there's this thing

5:20

that happened, like you're

5:22

a very normal person. Tell me about

5:25

life before all this, like who you

5:27

were, your job, your upbringing, just like

5:29

kind of paint the picture. Yeah.

5:32

So in 2015, I was 29 years old. I

5:36

grew up in Southern California. I

5:38

went to undergrad with the

5:41

goal to become a physical therapist. And

5:43

I went to get

5:45

my doctorate in Brooklyn, New York,

5:48

which was really cool experience to

5:50

be able to get something completely different

5:52

than Southern California. The energy, the culture,

5:54

the people. I

5:57

had a lot of self-learning, self-discovery.

6:00

at that time

6:02

and yeah, I started

6:04

working for a couple of years and

6:07

I went to Vallejo, California for

6:09

a physical therapy residency to specialize

6:11

in working with people

6:13

who've had severe neurological

6:15

disorders or traumatic

6:18

brain injury, spinal cord injury, stroke,

6:20

I mean these people and their

6:22

families were faced

6:24

with an unexpected tragic

6:27

event and are literally like

6:29

building, trying to rebuild their

6:31

lives and so that's

6:33

what I was doing at the time. I was

6:35

working with people who were going through their own

6:37

trauma and trying to help them and guide

6:40

them and that's where I met Aaron who's

6:42

now my husband. This

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unwell. Seven

9:31

months before you're kidnapping, you guys meet. Can

9:33

you describe like how you met and go a little

9:36

bit more into like the

9:38

dynamic of that relationship? Yeah,

9:41

so we met at work. He's a physical

9:43

therapist. He's working

9:45

at the hospital. We

9:49

would see each other out in like group

9:51

settings with the other PTs and we always

9:53

gravitated towards one another. We were dating for

9:56

about seven months or so. And

10:00

it was kind of an on and off again

10:02

thing because he had just been going through a

10:04

really devastating breakup of

10:06

his own with someone

10:08

he was engaged to, who we thought he

10:11

was going to spend his life with. And

10:13

she had cheated on him and so that

10:15

like his whole view of

10:17

his life and his future just crumbled. So

10:19

I could really empathize with what he was

10:21

going through. But at the same

10:23

time, after a few

10:25

months of inconsistency, it was kind of

10:27

we were at like a crossroads in

10:29

a relationship. So it's like

10:32

I said, like he was going through a difficult time. And

10:34

it was, you know, if you look

10:36

at it from the outside, it's like, Oh, don't go there.

10:39

It's just too messy. But

10:42

at the same time, like you don't come across that

10:45

that often. So the

10:47

night that you were taken, you and

10:49

Aaron had gotten into kind of like

10:52

an argument disagreement fight. What

10:54

was it about? Can you just kind of like give

10:56

context? Well, yeah, so about

10:59

a month before that, I found text

11:01

messages on his phone of him communicating

11:03

with his ex. And

11:06

at that point, it

11:08

was disrespectful to me and he wasn't being honest to me

11:10

about it. And so I kind of

11:12

put my foot down was like, okay, and that's enough. Like I

11:15

either you go, if you that's

11:17

what you want to do, go back to her, do

11:19

that or let me go like just give me enough

11:21

respect to let me go. And

11:24

he had talked about going to therapy,

11:26

but hadn't done it yet. So at

11:28

that point, he really I think it was like

11:30

more of putting a mirror up to his face

11:33

and going, Okay, I like what am I doing?

11:35

Why am I doing this? This isn't helping me.

11:37

It's not healthy for me. So

11:40

he started going to therapy and he and

11:42

he started trying to show me

11:45

that it was me that he wanted to

11:47

be with and that he wanted to try

11:49

to make this work. So

11:51

it was like a lot of back and forth. And

11:54

I wasn't going to go over to his house that

11:57

night. I told him like, like, if you want to

11:59

start over, we start fresh, she can take me

12:01

out on a date, like I don't want to go

12:03

back there because they had lived together

12:05

in that house too. So it was like,

12:08

you know, I don't, I don't, I

12:10

just, yeah, I need you to like court

12:12

me again. But

12:15

then, you know, he was like,

12:17

I think it'll be a serious

12:19

conversation, we should, you know, not be

12:21

in public, like talking about it. And so

12:23

we was like, okay,

12:25

fine, I'll come over, I brought a pizza. And

12:29

nothing about that night was heated

12:31

or confrontational at all. It was more

12:33

emotional, you know, it was like, okay,

12:35

am I willing to forgive

12:37

him? Can I believe that

12:39

he wants to move forward? Can he show me

12:42

that? And

12:44

so yeah, we talked for hours and we

12:46

got to that place, you know, it was emotional,

12:49

but it was sweet. And we,

12:51

we decided, okay,

12:53

yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna try this out and give

12:55

it a shot. And when you talk about

12:57

that night, what

13:00

does it make you feel? Because you're talking about like,

13:02

Oh my gosh, I went through this with this guy,

13:04

and we finally kind of had a really good conversation.

13:06

I feel like everyone listening can relate when it's finally

13:08

like, okay, we need to get to the bottom of

13:11

it. Are we doing this thing? Are we not? If

13:13

not, no hard feelings. I'm going to go on with

13:15

my life. But like, let's hash it out. Let's figure

13:17

it out. And you did. When you

13:19

look back knowing later that night, when you went

13:21

to bed, your whole life was going to change.

13:23

Like, how do you feel about that night when

13:26

you even talk about it? You know, I've been

13:28

asked that it's like, would you take

13:31

it all back? Like, if you would you not go

13:33

over there? Would you not forgive him? Would you, you know, if

13:35

that meant that none of this would have happened,

13:37

but in the end, I'm going

13:40

to get emotional. It would mean that I

13:42

wouldn't have him in my life. And he

13:46

is my person, you know, like I knew that as

13:49

soon as I met him.

13:51

And there's just like,

13:53

I didn't really believe and I was

13:56

giving up on the idea of like, your

13:58

your partner your other half. Like, like a soul

14:00

mate, you know, I was 29 and I'm like, the

14:03

shit's not real. Like it's just, and

14:06

I was kind of getting like

14:08

solidified and like, okay, I'm just

14:11

gonna be independent and focus on my career

14:13

and like, I'm good. Like I don't need

14:15

that shit. And yeah, meeting him,

14:17

I was like, oh wait, maybe, maybe

14:20

there's not all douche bags out there.

14:22

Maybe like some genuine like, you

14:25

know, focused. And he had like,

14:27

he had a good family and he was really

14:29

sweet about his family.

14:31

And he shared similar values and

14:34

interests. And like, we

14:36

just would hang out for hours and

14:38

talk. And still like

14:40

10 years later, we just

14:42

hang out and talk to each other. It's like,

14:44

what do you talk about? I think that was

14:46

something the police were like, what do you mean?

14:49

No, you were fighting. And he's like, no, we

14:51

weren't fighting. We were just, we were talking, we

14:53

were listening to each other. We were hearing each other.

14:56

And so, I mean, I

14:58

think it's sad that some people may not

15:01

understand that. But

15:04

I feel lucky that I've gotten that

15:06

from him. When you went to bed that

15:08

night, were you like, okay, we're gonna try

15:10

to make this work. Like, were you in

15:13

good spirits going to bed, would you say? Oh

15:15

yeah, I mean, we were like wrapped

15:18

up in each other and yeah,

15:22

going to bed, just thinking, okay, like, we

15:24

were emotionally exhausted, but like, okay, like

15:27

this feels like a fresh start. Like

15:29

that ghost of the relationship of the

15:31

past is gone. It's lifted, it's free.

15:34

Okay, like we can start to move

15:36

forward. Can you take me to the

15:38

moment where you knew someone's

15:40

in my house and I'm in danger? And like,

15:43

were you just like dead asleep, woken up in

15:45

this moment? Yeah, I mean, I was dead asleep.

15:51

I thought I was dreaming. So I could

15:53

hear a strange

15:55

man's voice and

15:57

it's like my subconscious was conflicting.

16:00

It was almost like it was saying, don't wake up, don't

16:02

wake up. But

16:06

then, it was relentless and I

16:10

just suddenly, my eyes shot open and

16:12

my back was turned to where

16:14

the voice was coming from, but I saw a

16:16

flashing white light on the wall and three red

16:21

laser pointers crossing the walls and then

16:23

they disappear over our bodies. And so

16:25

instantly I knew, holy fuck, there's people

16:27

here. They're surrounded.

16:30

They have guns. This

16:33

is real. The

16:39

fear, I don't even know

16:41

if I could ever accurately describe

16:44

how horrifying that is. And

16:47

instantly knowing, there's

16:50

people here, they've got things set up. They're

16:54

not just coming in to steal

16:56

a laptop or something. What

16:59

is this? Why? Yeah.

17:02

Did you say anything to Erin or was this

17:04

just too crazy that you both were just stunned, shocked,

17:07

didn't say anything? I think initially

17:09

we're both just in shock, like

17:12

frozen, trying

17:14

to register. You're pulled from a

17:16

deep sleep to then that

17:20

is just like your body has to

17:22

have time to adjust and then

17:25

when you do adjust and

17:27

you're realizing what it is,

17:29

especially with guns facing you,

17:32

I mean, what do you do? Scream?

17:36

You don't know what these people are here for, what

17:38

they're capable of. So

17:41

we just listened and then the voice just kept

17:43

talking also. So

17:46

it wasn't really like we had

17:48

time to do anything else. He just

17:50

then started saying, like he

17:52

was having me tie

17:55

Erin up and he was kind of put zip

17:57

ties at the end of the bed and he backed away and then he was like,

17:59

I'm not going to was telling me how to tie up

18:01

Aaron's hands and feet together. And yeah,

18:06

the whole time I'm just like shaking going like

18:08

thinking like, am I gonna do this right? And

18:10

my you know, I'm just like in my head

18:12

about it, like, I hope I don't fuck this

18:14

up. I hope that they don't, you know, and,

18:16

and, and as I'm like freaking

18:19

out internally, the voice

18:21

keeps talking saying like you're doing a good

18:23

job, you are staying calm. It was

18:25

very like distinct, almost

18:28

robotic. It was just so

18:30

like there was so many little pieces of it

18:32

that was just so hard to even process

18:35

because it isn't

18:37

what you would normally think, right? Like you

18:39

watch true crime or horror movies, and you

18:42

see like this like crazy, passionate

18:44

violence and realizing

18:47

that criminals can be

18:49

patient and in control and planned

18:54

out was like even more horrifying

18:57

to process. Right.

18:59

Because I get what you're saying like you would

19:01

probably anticipate if someone was gonna play it out

19:04

in their mind, it would be like screaming and

19:06

yelling and like just yelling at you to do

19:08

things and the fact that you're like, there was

19:10

like this calmness about this situation. And yet

19:13

it's so hectic. But like, how is

19:15

this person showing patients in the wake

19:17

of like, we don't know at this point

19:19

what they're gonna do? When did you

19:21

realize like, Oh, they're

19:23

here to take me because I'm assuming like when you're

19:26

tying Aaron up, did you think like they're gonna take

19:28

him? No,

19:31

I thought well,

19:36

what what did I not think? You know, I

19:38

thought I mean, you woke

19:41

us up saying this is a robbery. We

19:44

are not here to hurt you and repeated

19:46

that over and over. Stay calm. This is

19:48

a robbery. And the

19:50

fact that there wasn't immediate violence,

19:53

I'm thinking and hoping and

19:57

also just to keep myself calm, like, okay, maybe this

19:59

is just a robbery. So they're planning

20:02

on clearing out Aaron's belongings and they're

20:04

going to have us tied up and

20:06

they put

20:08

headphones over our ears and played

20:11

pre-recorded messages of instructions and

20:14

forced us to take sedatives.

20:16

And even in that moment,

20:19

like I hear the other people downstairs,

20:21

I hear drawers

20:23

opening, like there's a drill going.

20:27

So even in that moment, I'm thinking, okay,

20:29

maybe this is just a robbery and they're

20:31

just making sure they're going to tie us

20:33

up and blindfold us and drag

20:35

us so we pass out and they have enough time

20:38

to get a clean getaway and we'll come to the

20:40

next morning and then it's all over. Okay,

20:42

fine, whatever, like we'll be

20:44

safe. But

20:46

you know, you're still like in the back of your mind

20:49

going like, you know, are they going to torture us? Are

20:51

they going to rape me? Are they going to rape him

20:53

and me? Are they going to make us what? Like, you know,

20:55

there's those stories of

20:57

serial rapists doing, you know, so

20:59

it's just, but

21:01

you have to like also try to figure

21:04

out how to stay calm and present

21:06

because if at least for

21:08

myself and those moments, I'm thinking

21:10

if I freak out, like,

21:13

and I lose my sanity, then

21:15

that's going to make it riskier

21:17

for me because I'm not clear headed and I'm not,

21:20

you know, like I might not pick up on some

21:22

information that could get me out of this alive. So

21:25

like, I just need to

21:28

I just yeah, I just need to calm myself

21:30

down, stay focused, pay attention,

21:32

listen and and see. Yeah.

21:40

But the night progressively got worse

21:43

and they separated me

21:45

from Aaron and then brought

21:47

me downstairs and and

21:55

then he came in because there was just one man who

21:57

was speaking and it's the same man who held me captive.

22:00

Yeah, I

22:02

came in and he

22:05

said, this wasn't meant for you.

22:09

This was meant for. And he named Erin's ex by

22:11

her first and last name. And

22:14

he said, we need to figure out what we're going to do. And

22:16

I mean, I'm just sitting there going like, like,

22:19

how, like, how

22:22

is this meant for anybody?

22:24

And what the fuck is

22:26

this? And

22:31

then he comes back in and he says, you know,

22:33

we're going to take you for 48 hours. We're going

22:35

to put you in the trunk of Erin's car, put

22:38

you into a trunk of another car. And Erin's

22:40

going to have to complete some tasks for you

22:42

to be released. Were you just

22:46

silent in that moment? Like, did you

22:49

say anything or you were just in shock? I

22:52

just in shock. I think I

22:54

said okay at some point. At

22:57

that point, the sedatives had already been kicking in.

23:02

I didn't know what was happening upstairs with Erin,

23:04

but I was hopeful

23:06

that nothing was happening because

23:08

I didn't hear any struggle

23:12

or yelling or anything like that. And

23:14

I mean, that's really how they could be successful,

23:16

right? Like

23:18

you use the person against the other,

23:20

you know, if you mess up, if you do anything, we

23:24

are going to hurt your partner, the person

23:26

you love. So

23:28

I think things

23:30

would perhaps be a little different if it

23:32

was just me, you know, like, if

23:34

it's like, I can risk getting hurt

23:36

if it's my life, I'm risking. But

23:39

if I might be

23:41

hurting someone else, then that changes

23:43

everything. Like, it's so interesting

23:46

again, because like, we never know what we're going to do

23:48

in these situations until you're in it. And

23:51

when you talk about it, Denise, of like, your

23:54

body just like knows

23:56

what to do in these situations. Like you having

23:58

the wherewithal to be like, stay so calm.

24:00

I cannot lose my mind even though I want to scream,

24:02

I want to cry, I want to do all the things,

24:04

I want to shut down. I have to

24:06

really be focused and listen. I remember

24:08

you talking about the car ride and even though

24:11

you were on these sedatives, you were kind of

24:13

like trying as hard

24:15

as you could to stay awake, right? And like just

24:17

track like, okay, we turned out of the neighborhood, like

24:19

where are we going? Like, how long do you think

24:21

that lasted in the trunk when they put you in

24:23

there that you were trying to just get a gauge

24:25

of where you were

24:27

going? Well, in the first

24:30

car, it was

24:33

hard to breathe. So as much as

24:35

I was trying to pay attention, I

24:37

was really just trying to not panic

24:39

because I felt like I was starting

24:41

to lose it. And I knew it

24:43

wasn't going to help me to hyperventilate. And so that's

24:45

where I was just like, okay, just focus on this.

24:48

And at one point, he stopped and like grabbed my

24:50

arm. And he's like,

24:52

do not scream, do not yell. And I

24:54

hadn't said anything. So it was just like

24:56

confusing and threatening and and then

25:00

he stopped somewhere and puts me in the

25:02

trunk of another car and it's smaller,

25:05

but I could breathe easier. And starts

25:09

going and I could tell you it on a freeway.

25:11

And yeah, I'm thinking like, can I

25:13

like, kick out a tail light like some

25:15

other shit you see in movies. It's like, I don't

25:17

know what kind of car I'm in. I don't know

25:19

where the tail light is. Like, I'm crammed like, you

25:21

know, what do I do? And I think as

25:26

I was just kind of like cycling through all of

25:29

that, eventually, I passed out from the sedatives.

25:31

And at this point, when you wake up and you're

25:33

being brought to this cabin, like, do

25:36

you have any concept if you're even still

25:38

in California? Like, do you know where you

25:40

are? No,

25:42

I don't know where I am. But

25:46

I knew that it had

25:49

been several hours. My, my, the

25:51

whole side of my body was

25:54

going numb. And when he opened the trunk,

25:57

the wheel was going up. that

26:00

the light was, I could tell it was

26:02

probably like later morning. And

26:06

he was like struggling to get me out of the

26:08

trunk. And I knew we weren't

26:10

like under a garage, like, because I could see

26:12

the light, but then he like drops

26:15

me and then fumbles with me and

26:17

drags me into darkness. And

26:19

I'm thinking like, where the fuck can we be where

26:21

no one is seeing

26:23

this right now. And I

26:25

don't hear cars, I don't hear,

26:27

you know, so I'm thinking we're

26:29

probably in either the woods or

26:32

like a big more like vacant lot

26:35

of land or something. So

26:37

I knew we were remote, I could

26:40

tell it was a like single unit

26:43

home, because there was

26:46

no noises or plumbing or whatever from anyone

26:48

else. So first of all, I can't even

26:50

imagine how terrifying like, when you realize

26:52

you're basically in the middle of

26:54

nowhere, potentially. And that thought

26:57

realizing like, no

26:59

one can see me, no one

27:02

can hear me. In

27:04

that moment, like, what were you thinking?

27:10

I guess I was just constantly

27:14

thinking of all

27:17

this horrific things that could

27:19

happen, like the possible torture, like

27:21

if, like,

27:26

is this what these people do? Like,

27:28

is this what they they're really in it for,

27:30

you know, because at the time to him, like,

27:32

Aaron, like he has some money, but he doesn't

27:34

have a lot of money. So

27:37

like, we don't

27:39

have family members who are public

27:41

figures or like, political

27:43

or, or anything, like we're

27:45

just really ordinary people. Like, like

27:48

I had some money in my mutual funds.

27:50

But again, it's like, nothing

27:53

substantial. So it really,

27:55

yeah, I was Yeah,

28:06

it's hard to really think about because

28:10

you envision just

28:14

all the possible ways you could be tortured

28:16

and killed and like, am

28:20

I going to bleed out slowly? Am I going

28:22

to be raped by how many of them? How

28:29

am I going to be able to face

28:31

and tolerate any of

28:34

that? But

28:36

I think in that moment too, knowing that

28:39

or thinking like, maybe this is why they

28:41

do this, I

28:43

told myself like, I'm like,

28:46

they've clearly systematically laid it out

28:48

to where I have no

28:50

defense possible to me. I'm isolated,

28:53

bound, I have said it

28:55

as blindfolded. No

28:58

matter what, even with all of that, I'm still

29:00

female. I'm a woman to a man, I can't

29:02

outrun a man, I can't outfight a man. So

29:11

I told myself like, the only thing I can

29:13

control is how I react and respond. So

29:15

if this is what gets them off, if

29:17

this is what motivates

29:19

them to submit a

29:21

cowering screaming woman, then

29:24

I'm not going to give that to them. I'm

29:27

not going to do that. And if it is my

29:31

last moment alive, I'm not

29:34

going to go out like screaming

29:36

and crying and horror. Like I'm going

29:38

to stay calm and focused and be

29:41

proud of the life I've

29:43

lived. Like

29:45

I'm not going to give them that. They don't

29:47

get that. They don't get that last moment of

29:49

my life. So

29:55

in a lot of ways throughout it,

29:57

you have to almost detach because you

29:59

can't. really be present in like the

30:01

horror of the situation. And you

30:04

have to think of all the possibilities that

30:06

anything can go wrong. So it's like, if

30:08

I scream, what's the possibility that they're going

30:10

to fight back? Like the more time I

30:12

spent with him to like next

30:15

to him feeling his energy, like, yes,

30:18

he was polite throughout. Like it was

30:20

a weird, it was a deliberate, like

30:23

procedural politeness. But

30:26

like I could tell like bubbling under

30:28

the surface was this level of aggression,

30:30

like, like almost like he wanted me

30:33

to fight back, you know, so

30:35

he could then yeah assert

30:38

his dominance. And so

30:41

I just felt like I was, you know, I

30:43

was just handling the

30:45

whole situation and him with care

30:47

and he

30:51

would talk to me a lot in captivity and tell

30:53

me that he was in the

30:56

military and had PTSD and couldn't live a

30:58

normal life. So that's why he's doing something

31:00

like this. And so I just felt like,

31:02

okay, like I felt like maybe

31:06

there's something in his past that's like justifying

31:09

him to do

31:11

this. And so I don't want to

31:15

alienate him. I don't want to

31:19

create a situation where it's like, you're

31:22

a crazy monster, you're a bad guy. Like

31:24

I just would turn and listen and try

31:26

to connect with him and talked

31:29

about therapy. I talked about a

31:31

childhood trauma. I

31:35

just thought really

31:37

like my only defense is to show

31:39

him the human being in front of

31:41

him and hope maybe

31:44

he would

31:47

decide not to kill me. I can't imagine the

31:49

mindfuck of you being like, I

31:51

hate this person, like, get

31:54

me the fuck out of here. But

31:56

then like knowing you have to use

31:58

your your

32:01

best possible social

32:03

skills in that moment. You're

32:05

basically, you never really, really get to see

32:07

him, right? You're mostly blindfolded. So

32:09

you're like, you're saying you're literally reading his like energy

32:13

of like his breaths and the way like

32:15

his tone and how he's speaking. Like you're

32:17

having to just hear these

32:19

like sensory moments and having to like

32:22

gauge how to respond. How

32:25

did that mentally affect you

32:27

being like, I have to be kind

32:30

almost to my captor. Like

32:32

did it ever have you questioning like, is he not

32:34

that bad of a guy? Uh,

32:38

yeah. And that was

32:40

part of it, like the

32:42

psychological manipulation and that like I could

32:45

tell that that was part

32:47

of it. You

32:49

know, it was so

32:51

deliberate. So I just

32:53

kind of fed into it. And

32:55

also too, it's like, he

32:58

would reward me for good behavior. So

33:00

like after he raped

33:02

me the first time I was allowed

33:05

when I was by myself to take the blindfold

33:07

off and he gave me

33:09

like toiletries to shower with and food

33:12

and you

33:15

know, so it's like I could see all of this.

33:19

It was a way to try to condition me. And

33:21

at the same time, like I had to take

33:24

gratitude and the fact that I wasn't being tortured.

33:27

And he kept saying like, Oh, don't worry.

33:29

We're going to release you. And I'm like, you're going to kill

33:31

me. And he's like, no, we're going to release you. It's like,

33:33

how do I trust

33:35

that? But I had

33:37

to like connect and have him

33:40

trust me because

33:43

if he gave me a little bit

33:45

of freedom, a little bit

33:47

of reward, and I immediately try to

33:49

run or scream or fight, then that

33:51

would show him that he can't. And

33:54

then maybe that would mean he

33:57

wouldn't trust that he could release me. So like.

34:00

part of it was like knowing what the conditioning

34:02

was and then also just like at

34:05

a certain point, you know, it's like

34:08

I have to believe that he's not all

34:10

bad. Like I have to believe that he's

34:13

a human being with feelings and

34:16

that there's some truth to when he

34:18

says like you don't deserve this and

34:20

I don't want to dehumanize you and you

34:22

know, so it's like I want

34:26

to believe that because I want to believe that I'm going to get

34:28

out of it alive. What

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and plan your trip at visit williamsburg.com.

36:05

First of all, I'm so sorry. Like

36:08

I genuinely cannot fathom what you went

36:10

through and it's just incredible that you

36:12

are able to tell your story today

36:14

and sitting here and I commend

36:16

you for even being able to do things

36:19

like this right now and talk through this and

36:21

I can imagine it's really fucking hard. When you're

36:23

going through this like mental warfare

36:26

of like a piece, a piece, a piece and then

36:28

he's telling you like I'm not going to kill you,

36:30

I'm not going to kill you. Like

36:35

before the assault, did he like warn

36:37

you? Well, I mean,

36:40

just being a woman in a situation like

36:42

that, of course, your first thought is like, I'm going

36:44

to be raped. Like, even

36:47

if that wasn't the intention,

36:49

because you said that, you know, this is where

36:52

a black market

36:54

startup company were hired

36:56

to fulfill personal and

36:58

financial debts and we were

37:00

hired to target Aaron and

37:03

he kept naming Aaron's ex and

37:09

everything was about protocol. Like, I have

37:12

to drug you. I

37:14

have to, you know, I have to do this and, you know,

37:19

so again, there's like that bit of hope maybe

37:21

that's not what this is about. But

37:24

it's like, well, but here you have a

37:27

woman, a body at your

37:30

disposal, like you are

37:32

in complete control over it. So like anyone

37:35

who inherently who

37:37

decides that a kidnapping for

37:39

ransom is a good idea,

37:41

like a good business model,

37:43

you know, there's something really

37:45

dark there. And so it's like, what's

37:48

what's going to

37:50

stop them from from doing that? And

37:54

yeah, like later that first

37:56

day he came in to say because it wasn't

37:59

meant for. They didn't have

38:01

any information on me. So

38:04

they were gonna record him

38:06

having sex with me and if

38:10

they thought I was ever gonna go

38:12

speak to the police, they would release

38:15

it on the internet. How

38:18

did that make you feel? Like, were you

38:20

even at that point, were you even scared? Like, were you

38:22

like, in your mind, like, fuck it, release it on the

38:24

internet or? At

38:26

that point, I just was like, of course, this is happening. I mean,

38:28

you know, been

38:30

hours of wondering, like,

38:33

if that was gonna happen. So I like, as

38:38

much as I'm feeling like the soul sucked out of

38:40

me, I'm also like, of course,

38:44

of course, this is gonna happen. And, you

38:48

know, at that point, too, it's like, I mean, what,

38:50

what do I say? Like, what, like, you

38:54

put me in a trunk of a car, like, there's

38:57

nothing I can say that's gonna stop this.

38:59

And so just,

39:01

okay, like, I, and

39:04

I just laid there. And I

39:08

remember thinking, because he had said, like, it's

39:10

supposed to look consensual or yeah,

39:16

and it's like, this, how there's no fucking

39:18

way this looks consensual. And

39:22

I would worried that because

39:26

of that, knowing like, I mean,

39:28

I, to get through it and

39:30

live through it and survive it,

39:32

I just I could feel myself

39:34

fully detached, like I was floating

39:36

overhead watching all this happen. And

39:39

I just had I just

39:41

had to detach. But

39:45

yeah, I was like, this, this is

39:47

gonna happen again. Like, I know it's

39:49

gonna happen again. And then

39:52

the next day, he said, you know, the

39:54

footage wasn't good enough. And this

39:57

time you have to you

40:01

have to seem like you like it.

40:03

So we have to kiss and it has to look

40:05

like we were

40:08

like in a relationship. And now

40:12

in hindsight when you look back on

40:14

that like the protocol and like

40:17

we need to film this for that like do

40:21

you believe like it was all bullshit it was

40:23

all just in this person's imagination

40:25

to like make you feel a certain

40:27

way or do you actually believe there

40:29

was certain things protocol wise that he

40:31

was actually following? Well I

40:34

know that there was more than one

40:37

person involved because of what we

40:39

saw and heard and the night of

40:42

the home invasion and also in captivity

40:44

like a different car pulled up and

40:47

people came out and came

40:49

inside and they were talking

40:51

and then left. As far

40:55

as like I believe that they

40:58

set up these things as protocol

41:00

to make them

41:06

believe that they

41:09

weren't as bad as they are you know

41:12

it's like it's that kind of this military sense

41:14

of like I have to do this and then

41:16

I have to do this and I have to

41:18

do this I'm gonna set up this whole situation

41:20

it's like but these are all rules that you

41:22

created you know and

41:24

and so this is all of your doing and

41:26

even when I would say like you're gonna kill

41:29

me and you're gonna kill me and he's like

41:31

no even if that's decided by the other people

41:33

like where I'm not I'm not gonna let that

41:35

happen I have an escape plan for my family

41:37

and it's like so you're

41:40

still here torturing me for two days and raping

41:42

me but you have an escape plan like you

41:44

don't have like you have to

41:46

go through with this like you but I mean at

41:48

least you have like some measure of

41:51

what you won't do but it's you

41:53

know I just I mean yeah I think all of it was

41:56

ways to

42:00

make them feel better about attacking

42:04

someone. Like, I don't, you know, I have to do this.

42:06

No, you don't, you don't have to fucking do anything. What

42:09

was your lowest moment in the cabin? The

42:13

second rate. Because

42:16

it was very

42:19

much like a, kind

42:23

of like, go fuck yourself. And then like, fine, you

42:25

want me to perform? I'll fucking perform. And

42:31

like, you're not going to break me. And

42:37

the only way I was able to get

42:40

through it was to like, just picture that

42:42

it was Erin that I was with. And

42:44

that like, just haunted me

42:46

and, but

42:50

like, I had a call upon something to like,

42:52

get me through it. Yeah,

42:55

I mean, at that point, it was already quite

42:59

low. And, and

43:02

then he came in at one point to

43:07

show me an article with

43:12

my dad speaking. I

43:19

like read the words of my dad's like,

43:21

telling me to be strong. That

43:25

the family was there. It's like,

43:27

I couldn't keep reading the sentence. I

43:33

just, just like

43:36

keeled over. It was just crying.

43:39

And he like put his hand on me and it's just like, fuck

43:41

off. Like, yeah. And

43:47

I think he said something like, oh, this must be real for

43:49

you now. And it's like, no,

43:51

like, I can't

43:54

imagine what my family's going through. Cause that whole time

43:56

I'm like, okay, I gotta be strong and get through

43:58

this. And like, I just could not. allow

44:00

myself to think that my family

44:03

like knew I was missing or like knew

44:05

anything cuz like Like

44:08

I knew what was happening to me, but

44:10

I can only imagine like parents like what

44:14

Would be going on in your mind like

44:16

wondering Yeah,

44:26

like I feel like especially that moment

44:28

he showed me that to

44:31

break me and like I just

44:36

So fucking pissed at him Succeeding.

44:40

Why do you think he showed you that he wanted it to rub

44:42

it in I? Think because

44:45

he kept saying throughout the whole thing.

44:47

You're so strong Wow, like I didn't

44:49

you know, like he'd say like we've

44:51

studied how victims respond

44:54

in situations like this and

44:56

and like I didn't expect

44:58

you to like you just kept Complementing

45:00

me and like saying how

45:02

shot which was even more reason for me

45:04

to not give him any thing, you know,

45:06

like Yeah, bro. Like

45:09

I'm I'm not gonna yeah

45:12

You're not gonna see me scared Yeah,

45:16

but I yeah, it's like uh, it was

45:20

sadistic and it in a psychological

45:23

way when you were sitting Alone

45:27

in moments when he wasn't with you. Like

45:29

what did you what kept

45:31

you going? Like what would you think about that

45:33

gave you hope to be like keep

45:35

it together? We've got this my family

45:39

my life my work Aaron

45:41

like I just kept thinking about

45:45

my future like I It

45:50

was a balance of like I Coming

45:55

to peace with the end of my life because

45:58

I didn't want if that lasted moment

46:00

came I didn't

46:03

want to be surprised and shocked and terrified

46:05

and have it just and

46:07

then that's it like I wanted to

46:11

be solid in the fact that like I

46:15

even if I wasn't 30 yet

46:17

like I still lived a good life and I had

46:19

a lot to be proud

46:21

of and like

46:24

how lucky you might have the family I have the

46:26

friends I have and you know

46:29

like I sought out to get my

46:31

doctorate and be a physical therapist and

46:35

I did that you know and I like but

46:40

then I was also just trying to all focus

46:42

on my future and like if I get out

46:44

of this what's what you know what's next and

46:46

and so then that could motivate

46:49

me to continue on and I like

46:53

called upon anyone and everyone

46:55

that I could like and you know

46:57

like I'm alone and then God

47:00

knows where and then there's this human

47:02

over here who's just like

47:04

terrorizing me but I was just like trying to

47:06

call upon any energy I could and like crazy

47:09

like after being released and like I

47:13

mean what's sad about it is there was a lot

47:15

of people when I was in captivity that were praying

47:17

for me and wishing

47:20

me well and I felt that

47:22

you're trying to well mourn

47:26

yourself as you are potentially about to

47:28

die and that is like no

47:30

one should have to do that and to know the way

47:32

that it went when you came out let's talk about

47:34

that because this is where it's like everyone

47:37

fucking failed you your

47:40

kidnapper tells you he's gonna bring

47:42

you home did he explain why he said that

47:45

he was gonna release me but

47:52

there was media coverage Aaron had

47:55

gone to the police and it

47:58

would be I think he used the term It

48:00

was too hot in the Bay

48:02

Area to release me. And he

48:04

also said that he wanted me

48:07

to be able to get to family, like I've been

48:09

through enough. And

48:15

he asked where, you

48:18

know, where my family

48:20

lived and he had my purse,

48:22

my belongings, and had my mom's home

48:25

address on it. So it was like,

48:27

I can't lie and I'll be able

48:29

to get to someone. And so we

48:31

agreed on a cross street. And he even

48:33

said, like, well, what if your parents aren't

48:36

home? What if, but I've got

48:39

childhood friends who live walking distance.

48:41

I was just like, what if, like, just like,

48:43

OK, sure. Like, if

48:45

you're going to do it, please. Yeah. Like,

48:47

and so we agreed on a crossroads

48:49

that was like a half a

48:51

mile from my mom's. And I

48:54

mean, even on the drive down, like,

48:56

he gave me a higher

48:58

sedative and I was

49:00

passed out for like the nine hour

49:02

drive. But I still

49:06

wasn't sure if what

49:08

he was saying was just to

49:10

try to appease

49:12

me and help make

49:15

sure that I comply. And so

49:18

when he woke me up and said we're here. Like,

49:22

I just you know, he said he was

49:24

in an alley out of you from the

49:26

street. And when

49:28

he drove off, like,

49:30

I still wasn't sure if I was

49:33

actually where he said

49:35

I was until I stepped out

49:37

and saw the

49:39

name of the street. And was like, I'm

49:42

home in that

49:44

moment just on the street because I know

49:46

it didn't last long in your brain. Did

49:48

you think like I'm free? I'm safe? No,

49:51

I mean, I never really felt that

49:53

I mean, physically, like, OK, like what

49:55

he's gone, like the car, like

49:58

I've heard it drive off. It's gone. But

50:00

before he had me

50:03

out, took me out of the

50:05

car, he was like, you know, yeah, Aaron went to

50:07

the police and you're going to

50:09

have to talk to them. And you can say

50:11

whatever I told you about the

50:13

organization, but you can't say two

50:15

things. You can't say anything about any

50:18

of us being in the military or anything

50:21

about us having sex, his words.

50:27

And you know, we know where your family

50:29

lives. Like we, like we monitor victims for

50:31

years based on everything that he had done

50:33

and said so far, like, yeah, I believe

50:35

that he, they would be watching me, they

50:37

would be monitoring me. And

50:39

so although physically free, I felt like

50:42

I was going to be confined and

50:44

restrained by their threats

50:46

forever. So when he releases

50:48

you, I understand

50:50

what you're saying. You're like, as much

50:52

as I was free, physically, I felt

50:55

mentally still captive, knowing that this person

50:57

is like, we're watching your family. Don't

50:59

do this. Don't say this to the police. Like

51:01

you're kind of beholden because again, you're now aware

51:04

of what this person and these people are capable

51:06

of. And so surviving

51:08

this awful traumatic experience should

51:10

have been the end of it for you. You

51:14

get out and you have a complete new set

51:16

of problems. Once you're released from your

51:18

captor, when

51:20

did you start to realize that the

51:23

police and media didn't

51:26

believe anything that you were about

51:28

to tell them? I

51:33

think there was moments, so

51:36

a neighbor at my

51:39

dad's, my dad wasn't home. She

51:41

recognized me, brought me in within

51:43

minutes. There was two

51:45

Huntington Beach officers there

51:47

and I spoke to them for like an hour and a

51:51

half. And as I'm speaking to them, I

51:53

hear helicopters outside, like the media is collecting,

51:56

there's people, dogs barking,

51:59

and they're like, oh, yeah. Yeah, it's a media

52:01

storm out there. And I'm just like, I mean, I

52:04

thought like maybe there

52:07

was like a local report

52:09

from like what he showed me in

52:11

captivity. Like I had no clue

52:13

like that it was aired all

52:16

over. And when

52:18

I'm speaking to the police, one

52:20

moment I see him holding a recording device by

52:23

his side and he didn't tell me he was

52:25

recording. And that was like, that

52:29

felt threatening. And I had told

52:32

the officers too, like I'm afraid of them

52:34

coming back. I'm afraid of what I

52:37

say here is going to be leaked

52:39

to the media and they'll find out.

52:42

And it was

52:46

just like a really horribly conflicted

52:48

position to be in because I

52:50

didn't wanna lie. But

52:53

then I'm like, if I speak to them,

52:56

the chances are I might have to. And

52:59

so I don't wanna do something that

53:04

can maybe save me but

53:06

hurt my family later on. And I

53:09

was also, I remember there was

53:13

waiting, like

53:20

they said they needed to talk to

53:22

the Vallejo police. So we're gonna get

53:25

ahold of them, we're gonna get ahold

53:27

of them. And the time was going

53:29

on. And like, just something didn't feel

53:31

right. And then when they finally did

53:33

get connected with the lead Vallejo detective,

53:35

he had said that he was gonna be

53:37

offering a proper of

53:39

agreement, which is

53:41

basically immunity. I'm

53:44

just like, immunity from what?

53:47

I'm a victim of a crime. Like I

53:49

don't, and it

53:51

made it all more terrifying because of how

53:54

the whole kidnapping went. How

53:56

arrogant my captor was. He was like, yeah,

53:58

there's media, but like. it's okay, it's gonna

54:01

be good PR for our group. It shows

54:03

us, it shows people that they can hire

54:05

us and we are not gonna overreact and

54:07

kill the victim. And it's just like, and

54:11

even his threats of like, we'll know what you

54:13

say, like we'll always be watching. And I was

54:15

just like, oh my God, is this phase two

54:17

of the kidnapping? Like is, like why

54:20

are the police behaving

54:22

this way? Like

54:24

I have family talking to the lead detective

54:26

and they're like, he's angry, he's yelling, he's

54:28

cussing. Like they want

54:31

you to come up and make a statement. There's

54:33

an FBI plane here and my

54:35

family, I have a couple family members who

54:37

are attorneys and they're like, no, like

54:39

we need a criminal defense attorney, like no

54:42

more statements. We like, and the

54:44

fact that like people were shocked that

54:47

I got an attorney, especially

54:49

the detectives themselves. It's like, you

54:51

offered me a legal

54:54

agreement and I

54:56

don't know what the fuck that is. I don't know

54:58

what that means. I don't know what

55:00

my rights are. Like I don't know anything. Like I'm, like

55:03

how do you expect me to navigate this?

55:05

Like, so yeah, I'm gonna consult with an

55:07

attorney. But especially when you're like, they're offering

55:09

me like immunity. You're like, I was

55:13

just kidnapped. Like what do you mean me immunity? Like don't you

55:15

want me to, don't you want to go catch the guy? And

55:17

that's why I just felt like, like

55:20

they're framing us. Like someone's involved in here.

55:22

Like it was just so like, none

55:25

of it made sense. I didn't like, then

55:27

who do you turn to? Like who do

55:29

you go to? So can

55:32

you quickly just like paint the picture? Like

55:34

what were the theories people had? What did

55:36

they believe happened? They,

55:39

I don't

55:41

fucking know. I mean, cause all

55:43

of it doesn't make sense. So

55:45

like Aaron called

55:48

911 and went to the police station and

55:51

told them what happened. And they

55:53

immediately said he was a murderer.

55:56

And that, yeah, like they're gonna

55:58

find my dead body. I'm

56:00

looking for a dead Denise, not a live Denise, you

56:02

killed her, you know, either you

56:04

could be a cold calculated monster, you can

56:06

admit you made a mistake. And he just

56:09

endured 18 hours of interrogation because he thought,

56:11

I can't admit to something I didn't do.

56:14

And if I push back and get an

56:16

attorney, I'm going to alienate

56:18

them. And like my main focus is them finding her.

56:20

So we just thought like, find her a little more,

56:22

a little more, they're going to see the truth and

56:25

they'll try to find her. And

56:27

then I was forced to record

56:29

a proof of life and captivity. So

56:31

the next day when that was sent, then

56:34

they immediately went from like, you guys

56:36

were fighting so you murdered her to

56:40

then I made this up to get

56:42

back at him. But then when I'm

56:44

released, it's the both of us in

56:47

on it together to get

56:53

famous. I'd like to like

56:56

someone out of theory about like wanting

56:58

to be like reality TV or like,

57:01

I don't fucking know. And so Aaron's

57:03

brother is an FBI agent. And he's

57:05

like, just like she, I had worked

57:07

in LA right before moving up to

57:09

Vallejo. He's like, so she, she

57:12

moves from LA to try to like

57:14

pursue her, you know, her fame in

57:17

Vallejo, California. Like what the, like it

57:19

just, none of it, none

57:22

of it made sense. I think

57:24

another theory that was so terrifying when I was

57:27

watching the doc was like the

57:29

fact that Gone Girl, the movie with

57:31

Ben Affleck had come out and everyone

57:33

was like, this is the real life

57:35

Gone Girl. Like she's faking her death

57:37

and then coming back. And it's

57:39

like how fucked that

57:41

people were comparing something that actually happened

57:43

to you and being like, maybe she's

57:45

trying to be like the movie. Like

57:47

when you started seeing that, like, did

57:50

you want to fucking scream? I mean, I, I

57:53

didn't watch

57:56

any of that actually. Like that I was

57:58

released and then had to immediately. go

58:00

find an attorney like God's him at 10 o'clock

58:02

at night and he's like, look, the

58:04

Vallejo police just held a press conference and completely

58:07

threw you under the bus and

58:09

said it was all a lie. So the world thinks you're

58:11

a liar. Like you're not going to be able to work again.

58:13

Like you're, you know, so I'm like, literally

58:15

like everything I had focused on

58:17

in captivity of like, I want

58:19

to get back to my life

58:22

was just taken away from me. And

58:24

I still

58:27

was fucking terrified that

58:30

like, they were going to come back

58:32

and kill me. And so I'm like, do

58:34

I speak to them? Do I not like I finally

58:36

do and then the next two days is being

58:38

interrogated by not just the Vallejo police,

58:41

but also the FBI. I

58:43

had to go in for a SART exam and my criminal

58:45

defense attorneys telling me like, look, like it's, it's

58:48

really grueling. It's like a four hour long

58:50

thing. Like they're going to like strip

58:52

you down. They take pictures of you. They,

58:55

you know, examine you internally. And I'm like,

58:57

okay, like how bad can it be until

58:59

like I'm fucking there? I mean, it's

59:01

like the last humiliating

59:04

like thing that

59:06

you could go through like so soon after

59:08

your body being attacked and violated, but it's

59:10

like, okay, like I've got to do my

59:13

duty, you know, like I got to make

59:16

sure that this doesn't happen to another woman,

59:18

another person. And then

59:21

all of that, it was just like, used

59:24

against me. And remember that second day

59:26

before I was going in for questioning

59:28

with the FBI, my

59:30

attorney said, like,

59:32

they're calling you gone girl. And I'm like,

59:36

well, what does that mean? Is that a bad thing?

59:38

Like I don't I didn't read the book. I didn't I

59:41

didn't see the movie. I didn't know what

59:43

the I heard about it. But like, like,

59:45

is that bad? And he's like, Okay, like

59:47

we're going to go in for questioning, you

59:49

know, and it's just and then I think

59:51

like I watched one Nancy grace

59:56

clip. And it was like, I can't,

59:58

I can't fucking watch a thing. I think it's

1:00:00

also so sad to hear like

1:00:02

how many people have said to women like why

1:00:04

didn't you just get like an

1:00:07

exam like after you were raped like why didn't you

1:00:09

get an exam it's like to

1:00:11

go through the most violating traumatic

1:00:14

experience to then basically reopen your

1:00:16

body again to be violated it's

1:00:19

like I just it's

1:00:21

such an awful

1:00:24

headspace that people even feel comfortable to ask a

1:00:26

question to a woman that's already been violated like

1:00:29

why don't basically why don't I want to get

1:00:31

violated again is that what you're asking me and

1:00:33

it's and it's so frustrating in history we've seen

1:00:35

so many people be like she didn't get the

1:00:38

rape kit because it didn't happen and it's like

1:00:41

it's so small-minded and it's also just such from

1:00:43

a male perspective and I know you were dealing

1:00:45

with a lot of men in this case that

1:00:47

were looking at you wondering why

1:00:49

you didn't act a certain way I mean

1:00:51

I wrote down people were claiming you weren't

1:00:54

believable because you acted too calm you

1:00:56

didn't seem physically injured

1:00:58

enough and you weren't

1:01:00

sad enough how

1:01:03

did that make you feel I

1:01:07

mean in the moment I was just shocked by it all

1:01:09

I I

1:01:13

mean even the questioning like the FBI agent

1:01:16

asked like did you scream like

1:01:18

no why I was woken

1:01:22

from a dead sleep there was multiple

1:01:24

people there like I didn't and

1:01:26

I think he even asked like did you think

1:01:28

about screaming like somebody asked me that I remember

1:01:30

saying like well I thought about

1:01:33

it yeah I thought I thought about all

1:01:35

the things all the things I

1:01:37

could possibly do are you fucking kidding me like every

1:01:40

second I'm trying to like solve

1:01:43

the math problem in my head like what's

1:01:45

the probability of me screaming to get me

1:01:47

out alive nope okay like what

1:01:49

about me fighting I'm drugged nope okay can

1:01:52

I run I don't know where

1:01:54

I'm at no like you know like it's

1:01:56

just also like what do fence do I

1:01:58

have I have my

1:02:00

ability to connect with human

1:02:03

beings. So, okay, like that's

1:02:05

my best defense right now. And

1:02:07

it got me out alive. So

1:02:09

like fuck all of them for their

1:02:11

stupid shit. And you know

1:02:13

what, like just what's

1:02:16

crazy about it too, is like they're trained

1:02:18

to know better. So like Aaron's brother is

1:02:20

an FBI agent. He's also in the army.

1:02:24

I've had a friend's

1:02:26

husband who's a Marine. They're

1:02:29

like, they teach us if you

1:02:31

are ever kidnapped or taken hostage,

1:02:33

that you build a report, like you figure out

1:02:36

how to survive. You get food, water, and you

1:02:38

build a report and get yourself out. Like what

1:02:40

you did is what we're trained to do. Like

1:02:43

I don't wanna be like

1:02:45

sexist or like put people in

1:02:47

a box of like, you know,

1:02:49

because they're dudes, they don't get

1:02:52

it. But like something isn't

1:02:54

clicking and it's not carrying

1:02:56

over. Like I know that they get training that

1:02:59

not all victims act the same, but

1:03:03

they don't treat victims that way.

1:03:05

So it's just like, what

1:03:08

has to happen? And then there's

1:03:10

a female detective who is the one that

1:03:13

like looked outside of

1:03:15

the box and saw the whole picture and

1:03:17

said, nope, there's another victim out there. I

1:03:19

gotta find her. And she's the one

1:03:21

that like saved us and saved our

1:03:23

lives. And so it's just, you

1:03:26

know, and you hear of other cases where

1:03:28

it's like the female detective who is linking.

1:03:31

And so it's like, I mean, I

1:03:33

think more women in

1:03:35

general in the environment with them. And like,

1:03:37

if they actually listen and heard them would

1:03:39

be helpful. Well, I think even what you're

1:03:42

saying, Denise too, it's like, we

1:03:45

experience life completely different than

1:03:47

men. It's like, oh, I'm sure you would have

1:03:49

screamed. And then you would have tried to lunge at him and punch him in

1:03:51

the face and tackled in the ground. We can't

1:03:54

do that. Right. We physically

1:03:56

can. We know we're

1:03:58

smarter than that. Why? didn't you scream every

1:04:00

woman in the room would be like, duh,

1:04:03

like, of course you didn't scream. But it's

1:04:05

like, because men are so privileged in those

1:04:07

type of moments to just use their like

1:04:09

brute force, like, we don't, we can't rely

1:04:11

on that. And so it's just heartening to

1:04:13

hear you're staring at all these men being

1:04:15

like, what do you mean? Did I

1:04:18

scream like, they didn't scream and they're like,

1:04:20

why as if you're guilty for something or

1:04:22

lying, you must be lying. I mean, everything

1:04:24

was about me or Aaron,

1:04:26

like neither one of us behaved

1:04:29

in the right way. And it was helpful later

1:04:31

on to hear from an

1:04:34

expert in coercive control or Richard, she

1:04:36

has a podcast real crime profile. But

1:04:38

she was saying it was

1:04:40

studied and men primarily like this fight

1:04:42

or flight response, it's flight, fight, flight,

1:04:44

freeze, and then there's also fawn. And

1:04:47

that's the woman's primarily more

1:04:49

innate defense of like the please and

1:04:52

appease like, I know I can't fight.

1:04:54

I know I can't flee, like you

1:04:56

win. So then what else can I

1:04:58

do? And and that's

1:05:00

what a lot of women have to do.

1:05:02

And it is like really infuriating

1:05:04

that it's like this day and age. Why

1:05:07

don't like we should know better. We know

1:05:09

better. We should. Right. It's

1:05:12

so interesting. You said that I

1:05:14

just interviewed a woman who

1:05:17

was attacked by a man. And

1:05:20

it was Megan Fox talking about being

1:05:24

assaulted. And she was like, I fawned.

1:05:26

And like, I know that

1:05:28

was like my initial reaction is don't fight

1:05:30

back. Deescalate the situation.

1:05:32

And as women, that's like our

1:05:35

way to like, get

1:05:37

ourselves out alive. And again, men are

1:05:39

just like, huh, like, you didn't fight

1:05:41

back? Like, because I wanted to live.

1:05:43

Yeah, exactly. Like you endure one horror.

1:05:45

So you can save

1:05:47

yourself from another. And so you

1:05:50

could save your life. When you're

1:05:52

talking to me about this, like I'm trying

1:05:54

to even comprehend like you go

1:05:56

through this dramatic experience, you come out,

1:05:58

no one's believing you like, did

1:06:01

in a way that almost feel worse? You're like,

1:06:03

yeah, yeah, 100%.

1:06:06

What I deal with the,

1:06:08

yeah, the processing through everything like

1:06:10

the pain, all it's like the

1:06:13

what happened after the kidnapping absolutely

1:06:16

has been the hardest part to deal with.

1:06:18

Because I think you

1:06:21

can kind of like understand that there's

1:06:23

people out there who are motivated to

1:06:25

cause harm. And it's just a really

1:06:27

unfortunate, horrible situation

1:06:29

that it like we were targeted

1:06:31

it happened. When

1:06:36

you go through a traumatic event, you

1:06:40

want to call upon your community,

1:06:42

like the people in your life, other

1:06:45

humans to help get you through

1:06:47

it to help give you strength and support. Like

1:06:49

you were trained your whole life call 911, something

1:06:52

bad happens, call 911, and they'll help

1:06:54

and they only made it worse. And

1:06:56

by their public statements,

1:06:58

like, people saw my

1:07:00

name and saw my face and they thought

1:07:03

gone girl liar hoax or fraud, you know,

1:07:05

and like,

1:07:07

how can I work again? Like, you know,

1:07:09

like, how can I put

1:07:11

my hands on another human and have them

1:07:13

like trust me with their

1:07:16

well being? They think

1:07:19

I'm some con artists. And so

1:07:21

like, everything I worked for everything

1:07:23

that meant something to me was

1:07:25

taken from me. And so it

1:07:28

was, yeah, it was devastating, like,

1:07:30

and it just was the constant. Like,

1:07:35

I'm not performing well enough

1:07:37

for any of you, like from

1:07:39

captivity, and assaults.

1:07:41

And then, you know, you're

1:07:44

not emotional enough. You're not I mean, even though

1:07:47

I was sitting there, like it's my head in

1:07:49

my hand sobbing to these officers. Like,

1:07:51

somehow that's not emotional enough. Like

1:07:54

I'm drug but like, just

1:07:58

not yeah, I mean, everything.

1:08:02

Even like things that my family told

1:08:05

the police like, Oh, she runs half

1:08:07

marathons and she she's a fighter and

1:08:09

she's strong and they use that against

1:08:11

me like, Oh, you're you're strong. Like,

1:08:13

like, well, I mean, I'm not

1:08:16

really like I'm in shape, I guess, but I'm not

1:08:18

like, I'm not fast enough. Like I remember

1:08:21

telling the law enforcement like I,

1:08:24

I run with Aaron, like I don't catch

1:08:26

I can't like, we're not on pace. Like

1:08:28

I know my strengths

1:08:30

and I know my limitations. And that's

1:08:32

like really important for me to figure

1:08:34

out what to use in

1:08:37

a situation like that. Denise,

1:08:40

I am so

1:08:42

sorry you had to deal with that because just

1:08:44

again, as you're talking about it, I'm like, to

1:08:46

go from the absolute lowest moment of your life

1:08:48

and you're wanting to like, fling yourself to everyone

1:08:51

and be like, I'm back. I'm alive. I made

1:08:53

it. Oh my god. And everyone just slams the

1:08:55

fucking door in your face and it's like, what

1:08:58

the fuck were you doing? You're trying to get famous

1:09:00

office. You're like, no, I was

1:09:02

just assaulted and abused and like

1:09:05

mentally fucked with for

1:09:07

how many days like, listen to

1:09:09

me and no one believes you like

1:09:11

I cannot imagine the psychological warfare

1:09:14

that must have put you in a spiral

1:09:16

of like, how did it affect the during

1:09:18

that time you're like day to day life?

1:09:20

Like did friends turn on you? My

1:09:22

close friends, Aaron's close friends, they all

1:09:25

supported us and all believed in us.

1:09:27

And that was that was, you

1:09:29

know, and our families like that. You

1:09:33

know, because you, you can hear

1:09:36

and see like how things

1:09:38

can get twisted with family

1:09:41

or you know, like the possibilities

1:09:43

of that. But like both of

1:09:45

our families unconditionally like embraced us

1:09:47

and each other and and he

1:09:50

hadn't met most of my family

1:09:52

yet, you know, so it's like,

1:09:54

hi, sir, I'm dating your daughter,

1:09:56

like, you know, like, it's like

1:09:58

nice to meet you under these

1:10:00

circumstances. It was just all

1:10:03

so crazy. But

1:10:08

you know, the little bit of

1:10:10

stuff I looked on on social media,

1:10:12

the Facebook and like some people who

1:10:14

had originally like, Oh, you know, she's

1:10:17

missing. And then they would post articles,

1:10:20

you know, highlighting Garth Gone Girl and

1:10:22

going, I don't get it and kind

1:10:24

of like jumped into that whole, that

1:10:27

whole thing. And that

1:10:29

was another thing that

1:10:31

was really devastating because it's like, okay,

1:10:33

maybe like this, you know,

1:10:35

officer, this misogynistic

1:10:38

and stupid thinks

1:10:41

I'm gone girl, but like, someone

1:10:43

who knows me, you know,

1:10:45

and then you think back to all the things that

1:10:47

you've done in your life. And you're like, if I

1:10:49

give them people an excuse to think that I'm this

1:10:52

horrible person. And so there's like

1:10:54

a lot of self blame

1:10:56

and like

1:10:59

the loss of self

1:11:01

and identity. Yeah, I

1:11:05

mean, it's people, you know, go

1:11:07

out and give their opinion and their

1:11:11

hate thinking like, well,

1:11:13

I'm allowed to I'm justified to

1:11:15

it's just words like it's it.

1:11:19

It causes a lot, a lot of trauma,

1:11:22

a lot of trauma. And it's like you're

1:11:24

you're no better just because you're not hitting

1:11:26

someone doesn't mean that you're not causing severe

1:11:29

damage until he was like,

1:11:32

found what was your

1:11:34

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may vary. Until

1:12:54

he was found, what

1:12:57

was your lowest moment when you were

1:12:59

out? I think the lowest

1:13:02

moment was after two days of being interrogated,

1:13:05

the FBI

1:13:07

agent saying there's

1:13:09

a lot of inconsistencies in your story and essentially

1:13:12

I don't believe you. And he told my attorney,

1:13:14

he's 99% sure I was lying and

1:13:16

that my attorney should watch Gone Girl. It

1:13:19

was just kind of

1:13:23

like, all I had was the truth.

1:13:26

Erin, same thing. All we

1:13:29

did was just give them

1:13:31

the truth and it was just like, I mean, it's like you're

1:13:33

hitting your head against the wall. Like

1:13:37

you're in a twilight zone. I mean, I'm

1:13:41

sure you've had, through writing the book and

1:13:43

the documentary and interviews, like you've had probably

1:13:45

some time to think about it. Like, why

1:13:48

do you think women

1:13:52

have to work so fucking

1:13:54

hard to be believed? I think

1:13:58

it's still just really easy

1:14:01

for people to think that

1:14:04

women like

1:14:07

are attention-seeking and

1:14:10

overly dramatic and

1:14:14

conniving.

1:14:16

I mean it's really sad like it like

1:14:19

even the responses from other women that I

1:14:21

got was like wow like do you view

1:14:23

yourself this way? This is

1:14:26

how you see women. This is

1:14:28

really disturbing but

1:14:30

I think a lot

1:14:33

is set up and

1:14:37

society and I mean

1:14:39

still even now with the

1:14:42

Netflix series out and like

1:14:45

the truth out people still criticize

1:14:47

Erin and I not emoting

1:14:50

enough and not being

1:14:54

believable or just being like

1:14:56

vanilla or I mean you name

1:14:58

it. Also

1:15:00

like not you

1:15:03

you literally talk about like dissociating from

1:15:05

your body that

1:15:08

can take like a lifetime to like completely

1:15:10

repair and re-engage and like get yourself back

1:15:12

to a place that you can even like

1:15:16

go on with your day-to-day life and not like every

1:15:19

day I'm sure you think about this every single day

1:15:21

this is with you for the rest of your life

1:15:23

yeah like there's parts that you have

1:15:25

to compartmentalize so you can survive so that you

1:15:27

can be with your children so that you can

1:15:30

smile and it's like you're

1:15:32

so right it's like if they cry

1:15:34

too much then like they're performing if

1:15:37

you don't cry enough then you're soulless

1:15:39

and it's like there is no right

1:15:41

answer and the fucked up thing is

1:15:43

all the judgment is coming from people

1:15:45

who have never experienced it

1:15:47

how the fuck do you know how

1:15:49

you would respond in this situation well

1:15:51

that's where I mean

1:15:55

I'm hopeful that the

1:15:57

true crime genre is

1:15:59

changing and shifting and evolving because

1:16:01

that's you know people had the wrong

1:16:03

perception of how people behave in extreme

1:16:06

situations and again I can like get

1:16:08

why people in the public might

1:16:11

you know if their only experience

1:16:14

is by watching something but when

1:16:16

law enforcement goes to fiction and

1:16:18

uses that as a measure

1:16:21

to judge people that's where it's really

1:16:24

terrifying but like honestly

1:16:26

I finally watched Gone

1:16:28

Girl probably like nine months after

1:16:30

the kidnapping like I couldn't face

1:16:32

it and when I watched

1:16:35

it I was like it

1:16:37

actually released a lot

1:16:39

of that self blame so I was

1:16:41

like it didn't matter what

1:16:44

I did I mean if you're damned if

1:16:46

you do you're damned we don't didn't matter

1:16:48

like they believed what they believed and whatever

1:16:50

I did or said was only going to

1:16:52

fit that box and so I was able

1:16:55

to kind of release myself from it

1:16:57

like this wasn't about me like

1:16:59

that's not it's not me it's

1:17:02

it's their view of someone

1:17:04

of women of whoever but it's it's

1:17:07

not me no it's like I remember

1:17:09

talking to Amanda Knox and her being like all

1:17:12

of a sudden I turned around and it was like about like it

1:17:14

was like a sex case where I was like this

1:17:17

crazy woman that was like having three sins in it

1:17:19

Amanda was like wait

1:17:22

what like how did yeah so I just died

1:17:24

like can we go find the person that like

1:17:27

I'm having three sins with my roommate like this is not and

1:17:30

people love to for especially for women

1:17:32

there's like this narrative you're right that

1:17:34

it's like they want us to play

1:17:36

into this role and I think why

1:17:38

it's hard to believe us is because

1:17:40

people don't want to because it will

1:17:42

completely disrupt the societal norms

1:17:44

of like men dictate women are

1:17:47

like emotional and erratic and dramatic

1:17:49

and that's how everyone wants to

1:17:51

be because if we actually start

1:17:53

listening to women and we start

1:17:55

taking what they're saying at face

1:17:58

value what is that going to be? to

1:18:00

do to the people that run the entire fucking country. Yeah,

1:18:04

I think people just don't want to admit how

1:18:07

bad it is. Because

1:18:09

then if you know how bad it is and you're

1:18:11

not doing anything about it, then you're complicit.

1:18:14

When your kidnapper was

1:18:17

arrested and people started to

1:18:19

realize you

1:18:21

were telling the truth the whole time, how did

1:18:24

that make you feel? It

1:18:34

all felt horrible. I mean, it really did.

1:18:39

Because when we found out

1:18:43

about it, he got caught

1:18:45

for attacking another family. And

1:18:50

then we

1:18:52

were reading in the FBI affidavit that

1:18:56

there were calls that were placed the

1:18:59

first night I was in captivity that

1:19:01

the police could have traced

1:19:03

back to the location I was in captivity in.

1:19:08

And they could have saved me. And

1:19:11

even if, for whatever

1:19:13

delay, they couldn't have saved

1:19:15

me and I was still released, they

1:19:18

could have explored that and

1:19:20

caught him. And instead, they

1:19:22

were just so focused on being

1:19:24

right that another family was

1:19:27

attacked. And

1:19:30

it took a detective, a

1:19:33

female detective, Misty, to look

1:19:36

beyond her case. She noticed

1:19:39

there was a blonde hair on goggles and

1:19:41

her victims all had dark hair. And so

1:19:43

she thought, there's more to this. And even

1:19:45

that, she came up with a lot

1:19:47

of resistance trying to pursue that beyond the case that was

1:19:50

in front of her. And so it's just like, I mean,

1:19:56

I'm glad she's our hero and we're... fortunate

1:20:00

to have our life back and

1:20:03

for people to know the truth, but it's

1:20:05

just like so frustrating because at what cost,

1:20:08

you know, and even

1:20:10

after that, like there's no accountability,

1:20:12

there's no real like, sorry, we

1:20:14

did this, we're gonna make

1:20:17

sure we'll never

1:20:19

do it again, you know, so it's just like,

1:20:22

it's just one disappointment. Didn't the

1:20:24

nail officers literally get promoted? Yeah,

1:20:27

the lead detective got Officer of the

1:20:29

Year. It's like that

1:20:31

year and we named him in a

1:20:34

civil lawsuit too, like that year he

1:20:36

like messes up their, like

1:20:38

the, you know, the most publicized case

1:20:41

they've had in a while, get named

1:20:43

in a lawsuit, but they like have

1:20:46

to stroke his ego so much to give

1:20:48

him Officer of the Year. It's just it's

1:20:50

fucking disgusting. And even just that right there

1:20:52

is such a testament to like the world

1:20:54

we fucking live in. What

1:20:56

is encouraging is that there are

1:20:59

so many law enforcement officers who've

1:21:01

reached out to us, especially

1:21:03

with the Netflix series coming out and being

1:21:06

like, this is awful. This is not how

1:21:08

it should be. We want to, they're like

1:21:10

dedicated to make change. And

1:21:12

so, you know, that's something that

1:21:15

Aaron and I want to do is like, speak

1:21:17

with law enforcement and work with them and

1:21:19

see like, how can we all

1:21:21

do better? Let's work together and

1:21:25

really what's our common goal? Like, let's

1:21:28

all help each other and be there for each other. What

1:21:31

would you say to anyone that's

1:21:34

a woman listening or watching today

1:21:36

that has come forward

1:21:38

to share her story in some capacity

1:21:40

and wasn't believed? I

1:21:46

feel you. I think

1:21:49

the biggest thing I'm just

1:21:52

gonna get emotional that just to always

1:21:54

believe in yourself. There was

1:21:58

times both Erin and

1:22:01

I like question our own sanity. Like

1:22:03

did this really happen? Am I who

1:22:05

I believe

1:22:08

I am or am I this horrible person

1:22:10

that no one can believe in? You know

1:22:12

and so like I

1:22:15

think sometimes it's human nature too

1:22:20

to like blame yourself because

1:22:23

the only thing you can control is yourself

1:22:25

so if it's your fault maybe

1:22:30

then you could protect yourself better later

1:22:32

on and so it's kind of hard

1:22:34

to actually just yeah

1:22:38

release yourself from that and go

1:22:40

just it's not my fault and

1:22:43

I did the best I can and I'm not

1:22:45

gonna let anyone gaslight me and like I mean

1:22:48

even with the assaults for me like I

1:22:52

like had this view like

1:22:54

it's not all that bad it wasn't that bad

1:22:57

and the FBI affidavit it said there was no

1:22:59

signs of non-consensual sex so it was just like

1:23:03

like time and time again like it

1:23:05

wasn't that bad you she came up

1:23:07

unharmed unscathed like all

1:23:09

these things that just cut

1:23:11

away at like devaluing

1:23:15

how I felt and what I went through and so yeah

1:23:19

I think just like the biggest thing is just

1:23:21

to believe in yourself like never give up on

1:23:23

yourself that can be really

1:23:25

hard sometimes you know. How

1:23:30

have you been

1:23:34

trying and like what has the process been

1:23:36

to like reclaim your relationship to your body

1:23:38

after this? Well

1:23:47

it's still

1:23:50

an evolving process. Yeah

1:24:00

We've gone through therapy like Aaron and I've

1:24:03

gone through couples therapy, individual

1:24:06

therapy and you

1:24:08

know try to work on like

1:24:10

moments of gratitude and and

1:24:13

being present in the moment

1:24:15

and appreciating just like

1:24:18

life in general and all the little moments in

1:24:20

life. And

1:24:24

I've had body work done and tried meditation

1:24:26

and and you know even

1:24:28

like working out boxing like different

1:24:31

ways to like feel empowered and

1:24:33

strong speaking kind

1:24:37

of taking the narrative back and it's

1:24:39

been helpful and even just like

1:24:41

journaling it was helpful. You

1:24:46

know but it's yeah it's still like just it's

1:24:49

there's a lot of deep pain

1:24:51

so like I am exploring more therapy now

1:24:53

and I think just kind

1:24:55

of admitting to myself

1:24:58

ourselves times

1:25:00

when it's like okay like we need

1:25:02

to to refocus and and

1:25:06

so I'm I'm looking into EMDR

1:25:08

because I hear great things about

1:25:10

it so like that's hoping

1:25:13

that that can help some of that just there's

1:25:16

like a disconnect you know like from

1:25:18

logically what I know versus

1:25:21

like what my body feels and processes

1:25:23

and so I just need to find

1:25:26

a way to reconnect those

1:25:28

two things. I think that

1:25:31

like you said speaking about it in a

1:25:33

way that like you're reclaiming

1:25:35

the narrative I think for women listening

1:25:37

like everyone has to take their own

1:25:40

time and like how you know when

1:25:42

you're ready to try to start to heal again

1:25:44

like I know there's probably so many people that

1:25:46

are like immediately get into therapy like throw yourself

1:25:48

into therapy like some people can't do it immediately

1:25:51

like you need time. There's layers upon layers of

1:25:53

the trauma too so they're trying to peel that

1:25:55

back or like something that might

1:25:57

be triggering then is in as much

1:26:00

now, but then there's something that's different, you

1:26:02

know, I mean, being a parent is like

1:26:05

another amazing,

1:26:07

wonderful thing. And then also,

1:26:09

like brings up a

1:26:11

lot of fear and worry and but then

1:26:13

is also a motivator to, to speak

1:26:17

out and demand that things

1:26:19

need to be better like things need

1:26:22

to be better for them. I

1:26:27

think a lot of people I'm sure were like, how

1:26:29

did you and Aaron decide to stay together because I

1:26:31

was thinking about that I'm like on the one hand,

1:26:34

I would think like, Oh my gosh, he's

1:26:36

the only person that understands it. He went through with you.

1:26:39

On the other hand, I'm sure people would be like, you're

1:26:41

each a living reminder of the trauma like, with

1:26:44

or ever a moment you weren't sure you were

1:26:46

gonna stay together like, how did you stay

1:26:53

together? I mean, I think I we both knew, even

1:26:57

just, you know, back up

1:26:59

to that night of

1:27:01

the home invasion, like we knew that we were

1:27:05

meant to be together and overcoming

1:27:08

something like this and living through it

1:27:10

and surviving it together. I

1:27:12

mean, it could break a lot of people up

1:27:14

for sure. And I could see how that could

1:27:16

happen. But we

1:27:20

really like support each other and

1:27:22

our patient with each other. And we never

1:27:25

blamed one another. I mean, I think that's

1:27:27

like, one of the biggest

1:27:29

things there was never like pointing the finger of

1:27:31

like, you should have done this or said this

1:27:33

or whatever, you know, so we're

1:27:36

like each other's biggest fans. And

1:27:38

we, we really try to like

1:27:41

lift and support each other. And yeah, and

1:27:46

I think to just like, having

1:27:48

good communication and admitting like, okay, this isn't

1:27:50

working right now, like something needs to change

1:27:52

and being able to have the space to

1:27:55

to have those conversations.

1:27:57

Because, yeah, there's Yeah,

1:28:01

there's just different things that can come up.

1:28:04

Do you still live in constant fear?

1:28:07

It comes and goes, but yeah, when I, yeah.

1:28:13

And then the, speaking

1:28:16

out publicly, like when we

1:28:19

released the book, and

1:28:21

even just now with the Netflix series,

1:28:23

it's like I keep thinking I'm at

1:28:27

a better place. I know I'm at a better

1:28:29

place, but it again, like

1:28:31

the public shaming mixed with

1:28:33

thinking that I was going to be killed. It

1:28:36

just brings all of that up. And

1:28:39

so yeah, the hypervigilance and

1:28:41

like thinking of and imagining

1:28:43

all, all the things that

1:28:46

could happen is distracting. Yeah.

1:28:51

You have two children.

1:28:53

Congratulations. Thank you. As

1:28:57

you mentioned, like I can

1:29:00

imagine for you, it's

1:29:02

a, it's terrifying to just have

1:29:04

children in general, because all you want to do is protect

1:29:06

them. On top of that, you're

1:29:09

dealing with something that is an extraordinary

1:29:11

trauma. Like have you guys talked

1:29:13

about how you will explain

1:29:15

this to your children? I

1:29:20

don't know exactly when that

1:29:23

conversation will happen or

1:29:25

exactly how that will look like, but I

1:29:28

know that they will know what

1:29:30

happened to us. And I think, you know,

1:29:32

as they get older and even just little

1:29:35

things of like teaching them consent

1:29:38

and boundaries and, you

1:29:41

know, respecting their body and other people's

1:29:43

bodies. And

1:29:45

so incorporating what we've gone

1:29:47

through in small moments

1:29:50

like that and kind of building blocks.

1:29:53

Yeah, I still don't know the exact right

1:29:56

age for when like. And

1:30:00

then I'm sure it'll be parts of

1:30:02

it, but

1:30:05

I definitely don't want to keep anything from

1:30:07

them. I want them to

1:30:09

know that no matter what

1:30:11

happens in their life, that they can always

1:30:13

come to us and be honest with us,

1:30:15

and we will always support them. And

1:30:19

I definitely want them to know their

1:30:21

value and their worth and not let

1:30:25

anyone dictate that to them. And

1:30:31

it's good to be strong,

1:30:33

but fighting doesn't always have to be

1:30:35

what people

1:30:38

think it is. There's power

1:30:40

and strength and patience.

1:30:42

And yeah, you don't have

1:30:44

to be aggressive and instantly

1:30:47

react to be powerful and

1:30:49

strong. But I'm

1:30:52

sure I'm going to get them in martial

1:30:54

arts and all sorts of stuff too. But

1:30:58

I think it's just good too, mechanically,

1:31:01

the PT nerd in me. Physically,

1:31:06

that's a good idea. How

1:31:11

have you changed as

1:31:13

a person after surviving

1:31:15

this horrific experience? I

1:31:21

think there's a lot that's

1:31:23

changed and then a lot that hasn't. In

1:31:26

some ways, I feel like especially

1:31:29

going through the process of

1:31:33

trying to eliminate the self-blame and

1:31:35

all of that, I become

1:31:38

more grounded and confident

1:31:41

in who I am at my core and

1:31:44

realizing, no, I'm not what all these people

1:31:47

thought or said. I know

1:31:49

who I am. I know who I am in

1:31:51

the world and to other people, to my

1:31:54

family. A

1:31:58

lot of people would think that. could

1:32:00

get quite jaded after

1:32:04

going through something like this but I just I mean

1:32:09

I'm trying to

1:32:11

be practical and cautious but I

1:32:14

also do still see the good

1:32:16

in people and in the world and so

1:32:18

I I want

1:32:21

to try to like harness that and

1:32:24

use that and and turn it

1:32:26

and keep kind of setting

1:32:29

the motion towards positivity

1:32:31

and yeah I

1:32:34

mean I'm gonna

1:32:38

have a lifelong battle of dealing

1:32:40

with trauma and pain I know

1:32:44

that I can do that I can still

1:32:46

have joy and gratitude and

1:32:48

enjoy moments

1:32:51

and life and laugh

1:32:53

and be silly and joke and you know

1:32:55

I can still have all the good even

1:32:58

with all of this you know totally last

1:33:02

question mm-hmm what change do

1:33:04

you hope comes for survivors

1:33:07

and women by telling

1:33:09

your story I mean

1:33:14

at the core baseline

1:33:16

is just again for

1:33:18

for women to believe in themselves and

1:33:22

I'm hoping as more

1:33:24

survivors speak out that empowers others

1:33:26

I know that I was definitely

1:33:30

empowered by watching others

1:33:32

speak out and realize like okay like

1:33:36

maybe I could do that too and yeah if

1:33:40

we just hear from more people

1:33:42

and we realize what the issues

1:33:45

are then we have a better idea of

1:33:47

what needs to change yeah I

1:33:49

also think and like because I

1:33:51

have so many women that listen and

1:33:53

I think something that stuck with me when you were talking

1:33:55

about it Denise was like reading

1:33:57

online like other women

1:34:00

Speaking about you in a way that you were like. Is

1:34:03

how we like. Think. Of each other.

1:34:06

And. It makes me so. Pad.

1:34:09

Honestly yeah cause it's like if all

1:34:11

we have at some point is. Each

1:34:13

other like. Every woman

1:34:15

can really in some capacity to each other

1:34:18

like we know what it's fucking like. We

1:34:20

know the sexualization. We know people don't believe

1:34:22

us, We know we're told to be silent,

1:34:24

We know all of this we've lived at

1:34:26

We'd we'd Like you said, we grow up

1:34:28

watching it in our and movies and books

1:34:31

everywhere. It's like there's this romanticizing when a

1:34:33

woman is weak and doesn't stand up for

1:34:35

herself. and when a woman does stand up

1:34:37

for herself your demonize and your bitch and

1:34:39

you're allowed in your of noxious and if

1:34:42

a man did the same thing it just

1:34:44

wouldn't be. It. Wouldn't be

1:34:46

taken the same way. And so

1:34:48

it's like how I appreciate. Aside

1:34:51

from the work you're also doing in law

1:34:53

enforcement right now also just for women, have

1:34:55

like this is a really important conversation that

1:34:57

you're someone that came forward and should have

1:35:00

been. You should have been believed and you

1:35:02

went through something career thick. and sadly like

1:35:04

a lot of the themes a lot of

1:35:06

women listening have. Probably. Gone through

1:35:09

like one in three women is assaulted. It's

1:35:11

like these are things of us just constantly.

1:35:13

Like you said when he's going away to

1:35:15

jail and I'll be released twenty seven. or

1:35:17

if I know, it's a power dynamic. It's

1:35:20

like men getting off on making us feel

1:35:22

small, making us feel weak. How do we

1:35:24

as women just certain like fucking supporters, other

1:35:26

little bit more and believing each other because

1:35:29

they're not going to believe us because it

1:35:31

threatens. Everything. In society, if we

1:35:33

start to rise up and we start to

1:35:35

be considered equal than everything gonna fuck and

1:35:37

flip on a tad, so how to We

1:35:39

at least have a little bit more. Of

1:35:43

unity with each other to be like

1:35:45

I see you. I've been there and.

1:35:47

I don't know the answer. I. Think it's

1:35:49

I've been to. talk. I mean

1:35:51

yeah, talk in here and listen

1:35:53

and. And as. Try.

1:35:56

to remind ourselves like no matter

1:35:58

what you think Think you

1:36:00

know of a situation. You don't know

1:36:02

it all even if it's something

1:36:05

small, you know like you know

1:36:07

like office gossip or something like you

1:36:09

just you just don't know and I

1:36:12

think we just need to recognize

1:36:14

that and try to empathize with people

1:36:17

and and just

1:36:20

just try to receive each other with a

1:36:23

little bit more openness and love and The

1:36:26

very least try to like recognize

1:36:28

when we're being judgmental and And

1:36:33

not act on that judgment. Yeah, be

1:36:35

nice. Yeah, I Cannot

1:36:37

thank you enough for coming. I Think

1:36:40

back to what you said where you're like, I

1:36:43

did react exactly how I should have

1:36:45

reacted and you're so right like you did every

1:36:48

single thing that you could have done

1:36:50

to survive and then some and for

1:36:53

anyone to judge you on how you responded

1:36:55

to something that most of us

1:36:57

can never fathom going through and surviving like

1:37:00

shame on everyone for failing you and I'm

1:37:03

just so happy that I got to speak with you

1:37:06

because the Netflix documentary like

1:37:08

yes, it was It

1:37:10

was very in detail and I got to see a

1:37:12

picture of it But speaking and being able to like

1:37:14

look you in the eyes and like seeing how this

1:37:16

is affecting you day to day like Yeah,

1:37:19

I pray to God that This conversation

1:37:21

and what you're doing out there can like help the

1:37:23

next woman that goes through this and then everyone's like

1:37:25

no We believe her and we see her and this

1:37:28

is gonna make a difference. So thank you so much for

1:37:30

coming I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me