0:00

You're listening too. Mama

0:03

Mia Podcast. Mama Mia

0:05

acknowledges the traditional owners of

0:07

the land we have recorded this podcast

0:09

on. the categorical people of the

0:11

nation. We pay our respects

0:13

to their elders, past, and present, and

0:16

extend that respect to all aboriginal

0:18

and torreshed islander cultures.

0:29

Hello, and welcome to Cancel. The

0:31

podcast that looks at mostly silly

0:33

celebrity crimes and assigns charges and

0:35

sent services to them so that we can all

0:37

move on with our life. I'm Claire Stevens.

0:39

I'm joined. I

0:42

got too excited. You got too excited. I'm Jessie

0:44

Stevens. You'll So what were you gonna say?

0:46

I'm joined by. Oh, Jesse We're

0:48

twins. We got a message from

0:50

someone saying they like it when we state that

0:52

we're twins. Oh, record.

0:55

They like it because it's just really putting

0:57

it in the courtroom. They think it's funny.

1:00

It's all like for people what they want. Jesse,

1:02

before we begin, I had a thought.

1:05

Oh, about things that should be canceled.

1:07

Just things, not people. Just things. Alright. And

1:09

I like canceling earnings. car doesn't hurt

1:11

anymore. What I was thinking about was

1:13

I've seen this term around the place and

1:15

don't know what it means and I find it upsetting. Okay.

1:18

I wanna cancel. the concept

1:20

of resort wear. I

1:23

don't understand resort wear. Am

1:25

I -- Certainly. -- to buy it and go

1:27

to a resort. and then, like, go to dinner

1:29

wearing a jump suit. It's a question. You ever

1:31

been to a result? I don't

1:34

know. Once and I wore the same thing the whole

1:36

time. because there's often whole

1:38

shop set up for resort wear.

1:41

And I don't understand the dress

1:43

code. just wearing shorts and a t shirt

1:45

and some thongs. Yay. Is that not resolved?

1:47

We have time. Do you have anything you'd like to cancel

1:49

just before we get stuck in? Yeah. I

1:51

do. the nut bush.

1:57

I hate the nut bush. I don't think

1:59

it's funny. I don't think it's ironic. I don't know how

2:02

to do No. An Australian's particularly

2:04

like the notebook. Despite the fact it feels

2:06

very American. Yeah. Jesse, today

2:08

on the show, We're talking

2:10

about Oprah Winfrey. She's come

2:12

up a

2:12

lot. We often talk about when the cancel

2:14

courtroom crosses over. And Oprah has

2:17

been involved in so many other cancellations.

2:19

Some of them include Lads, Armstrong,

2:22

Meghan Markle, Tom Cruise,

2:24

doctor Phil, and so on. But

2:27

now it's her time in the spotlight.

2:30

A note that this will be a two part series,

2:33

so much done completely chronologically.

2:35

which may get confusing thematically. But

2:37

it's okay. We're just going from start

2:40

to finish.

2:41

Oprah's incidents.

2:42

Oprah Gail Winfrey was

2:44

originally her middle name Gail -- It is. --

2:46

spelled differently to

2:47

her friend Gail. Alright. Yeah. She

2:49

was originally named Orpar but

2:51

people pronounced it Oprah and

2:53

it stuck. She had

2:55

a very hard childhood in adolescence with

2:58

a single mother and she has stated

3:00

that she was molested by her cousin, uncle,

3:02

and a family friend, starting when she was

3:04

nine years old. She ran away

3:06

at thirteen, at fourteen, she fell pregnant,

3:09

and her son was born prematurely and

3:11

died shortly after birth. She

3:13

took over a low rating morning

3:15

talk show in Chicago in the early nineteen

3:17

eighties And within months, she took

3:19

it to the highest rating show. Of course, she

3:21

didn't. The Oprah Winfrey show was born

3:23

and it aired for more than twenty five

3:25

years.

3:26

I should put on the

3:28

record at this point. I love

3:30

Oprah.

3:30

I love Oprah Winfrey. I

3:32

think she's brilliant. she

3:35

has had a really solid part

3:37

in my life, I would say. I

3:40

threw a lot of sickies when I was at

3:42

school. I'd say, I'm feeling sick this

3:44

morning, mom, and she'd yell at me and anywhere at one.

3:46

So I would have television schedule. Doctor

3:49

Philip twelve, I pry out one.

3:51

I think two or three was ready, steady cooking. That's

3:53

when you knew the day was over. And you'd go, and I

3:55

feel guilty now because I missed your day at school for

3:57

this. It was insane. Yeah. And sometimes, you'd

4:00

go remember the music.

4:02

I'd often have my lunch ready for Oprah. Mhmm.

4:04

And that'd be a shit one. And you'd go Oprah.

4:07

Come on now. I took a whole day

4:09

off for this. Was that really Oprah was the peak.

4:11

Oh, how was your day off your day off school?

4:14

You went this is the golden time. Exactly. for

4:16

me. Yes. And they thought it was, like, one about sex

4:18

or one about oh, there'd be some gossip y

4:20

ones. If she gave away some free stuff, I didn't love it

4:22

as much. But there were some great episodes.

4:25

Oh, Jesse, as somebody who loved Oprah,

4:28

What celebrity do you think appeared

4:30

the most times

4:31

on Oprah?

4:32

Great question. I mean, I would say Gail.

4:34

Yeah. Okay. It

4:37

was Gail. She

4:39

appeared

4:40

a hundred and forty one times.

4:42

Gail and Oprah's friendship is

4:45

Something to his fire. Something to his fire too.

4:47

She is the

4:48

mother I never had.

4:50

She is the

4:51

sister. everybody

4:52

would want.

4:54

She is the friend that

4:56

everybody deserves. I

4:58

don't know a better person. And

5:00

we should probably put on the record statement

5:02

because they've been together for like Covera.

5:05

For a long time, I

5:08

don't often write celebrity pieces

5:10

But for MamaMear, I have written a love story

5:12

about her instrument as a passion piece.

5:14

They just really like each other. They're not married.

5:16

She is his queen. Eight

5:19

fabulous. He's always in the audience. But

5:21

not in not in like a Robin doctor. Not

5:23

in a Robin way. He doesn't come on to

5:25

stage and dance. No. No. No. No. that would take the attention

5:27

from I prom. No. But Gail, she

5:29

has appeared a hundred and forty one times. The

5:32

second most appearing,

5:34

celebrity was Celine Dion

5:36

at twenty eight times.

5:38

His welcome son is Dion

5:40

performing my work. Well, go

5:42

on. Selidio.

5:45

Selidio is a

5:47

far more successful singer

5:49

than you real. She's like, the second most

5:51

successful female recording artist of all time.

5:53

I think she quished a few times. She was one of those

5:56

people that kept quitting and coming back. And every time she

5:58

quitting, she'd be on over. That's worth an interview. But anyway,

6:00

my point is Gail has just been on a lot. Yes.

6:02

Some would say too much, not me.

6:05

Oprah has always loved his friend, Cassie.

6:09

They met when Oprah was in her early twenties.

6:12

On the show, they would take trips together

6:14

in a segment called Oprah and Gail's

6:16

big adventures.

6:16

On day six, we got

6:18

lost. Some of the most fun we had on

6:20

this trip was when we decided to crash a wedding

6:22

in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

6:23

After ten days and three thousand

6:25

miles,

6:26

we were finally in the home stretch, but

6:28

then Gail said something no passenger ever

6:30

wants to hear, especially when

6:32

you're driving on a bridge. gonna have to

6:34

pull over because I need to put on my glasses.

6:36

You can't see late at night.

6:39

Oh

6:39

my god. I can see,

6:41

but lights have little halo around

6:43

the world. It's just

6:44

such a vibe. Just a light, I clearly just want

6:46

to recol recollect together, and the light lets my content.

6:48

Yes. Original content. creators. Sometimes

6:50

they fought over the radio, it was like,

6:53

oh, there are just two women having a laugh. And,

6:55

Jesse, for this

6:57

episode,

6:58

I need you to be gayle.

7:00

Can you be gayle? I'm just

7:02

the world's very best friend. Okay. In

7:04

twenty eighteen, it came out that Oprah might

7:06

run for president. but

7:08

that meant the media comb through all

7:10

her scandals to show the issues she'd

7:12

run into on the campaign trail,

7:14

which, like Donald Trump. But

7:16

anyway, Jesse, there

7:19

are four and a half thousand

7:20

episodes of the Oprah Winfrey

7:22

show.

7:23

I know. I watched all of them. Plus, there's

7:25

Oprah generally living a very pop like life.

7:28

The nineties were a weird time, and

7:30

the woman did some strange things. I'm

7:32

going to bring the case against her, you're going

7:34

to be gayle. defending your best friend

7:36

Oprah from anachronism. That

7:38

is applying standards in the present to

7:40

the past and holding her accountable for

7:43

things she cannot possibly have known.

7:45

Okay. Can you tell what my bias is?

7:47

Yeah. Yes. My structure for today

7:49

is as follows. Part one,

7:52

Michael Jackson interview. Part

7:54

two,

7:54

Uncomfortable interview with Dennis Rodman.

7:57

Part three. Flooding with pseudoscience.

7:59

Part

7:59

four. Uncomfortable interview

8:02

with Olsen twins.

8:03

Let's begin. I

8:05

like

8:05

her when she says a aha moment.

8:08

Aha that is aha. Uh-huh.

8:11

Was that not an AHA moment

8:13

for you? That's an AHA moment for

8:15

me. That's an AHA. didn't think about it. That's what

8:17

it is. And

8:17

I also love it when she repeats the last two words

8:19

of what's on said, but with different emphasis.

8:21

She repeats things a lot. She'll

8:23

ask a question, and then someone will answer,

8:26

and she'll repeat the answer. And it really sounds

8:28

like she doesn't believe them. She does it in a way where

8:30

it's just more profound when she

8:32

says it. Yeah. Very true. Just

8:34

for context, in part two, we're getting

8:36

to a lot of other juicy stuff. her time

8:39

she defended a fake book. There's a child

8:41

sex abuse scandal at the school she started,

8:43

lies, told by Oprah, the

8:46

Harvey Weinstein stuff, and

8:48

her weird weight loss. Wagon

8:50

a fight. Wagon

8:50

a fight.

8:52

Politik to this episode.

8:54

Michael Jackson. It's February nineteen

8:56

ninety three, and a little known pop star named

8:58

Michael Jackson,

8:59

goes on Oprah.

9:00

He talks about his complicated relationship

9:02

with his father, which involved physical violence,

9:05

They also talked about his vitiligo, which

9:07

was causing his skin to lose pigmentation.

9:10

He also beat boxed to

9:12

Oprah and she enjoyed it. Bam.

9:14

She

9:18

backed alone. Ninety

9:21

million people.

9:22

Watch the show. But in hindsight,

9:25

people

9:25

will be mad.

9:26

In August of that same year,

9:28

the first reports of alleged

9:30

child abuse committed by Jackson picked

9:32

up by the media. Mhmm. Now we're in

9:34

a courtroom. Yeah. This is really important,

9:36

but I need to ask you, Yale,

9:38

a question. Yeah. He was interviewed in

9:40

February. Bye bye. Yeah.

9:42

The allegations came out in August. Okay?

9:45

Is August before or after February?

9:46

that

9:51

is a few months after

9:53

--

9:53

Yes. -- February. Yeah. Yes. And

9:56

that means that Oprah actually

9:59

didn't know and had no way of knowing the

10:01

allegations when she did her fun little

10:03

beat boxing interview with Michael Jackson. Okay.

10:05

Why didn't she know? They hadn't

10:07

come out yet. This

10:10

would be the first of a lot of accusations.

10:13

Evan Chandler, who accused Jackson in

10:15

two thousand and three, accepted a settlement And

10:17

then in two thousand and five, there was another court

10:19

case. Then, of course, I didn't know Prunel about that

10:21

court case. Oh, no. I think that was two and

10:23

a half years later. It's fair to say

10:25

she should have had crystal ball -- Mhmm. -- and she

10:27

shouldn't have been doing interviews when

10:29

she didn't know what the future helped. Yep.

10:32

In two thousand and nineteen, a documentary

10:35

was released. called Leaving Neverland,

10:37

all about the alleged child sex abuse

10:39

experienced by Wade Robson and James

10:42

safe Chuck. After this ad,

10:44

Oprah hosted an episode of

10:46

her show called After Neverland where she

10:48

interviewed the two men and the director. She

10:51

essentially condemned all

10:53

the stuff about Michael Jackson. And I know

10:55

people all over the world are gonna be in an

10:57

uproar and debating whether or

10:59

not Michael Jackson did these things or

11:01

not whether these two men are

11:03

lying or not lying. But for me,

11:06

this moment transcends Michael Jackson.

11:09

It is much bigger than any

11:11

one person. This is a

11:13

moment in time that

11:15

allows us to see

11:18

this societal corruption, it's like

11:20

a scourge on humanity.

11:22

So what I'm seeing here is that we're

11:24

seeing someone's mind and opinion change in

11:26

light of new evidence. Yep. which is never

11:28

okay. No. Why she should be held accountable?

11:30

That's why she's on the courtroom today. The courtroom

11:33

for changing her mind. Exactly. And learning

11:35

things as time changes. Exactly. And

11:37

condemning bad people. Yeah. So

11:39

Gail, do you think that this is a crime? I

11:41

do not actually think this is a crime. No.

11:43

Okay. I think that Oprah did the best with what

11:46

information she had and

11:48

that beat boxing at the time was appropriate.

11:50

Okay. If Michael Jackson was still alive and Oprah

11:52

was interviewing him, It would be quite inappropriate

11:55

to be a box because there are more

11:57

pressing questions. Over couldn't

11:59

have known? She is my good French. It's good

12:01

lady. No. Okay. Thank you, Gail. In

12:03

nineteen ninety six, Chicago

12:06

Bulls basketball player, Dennis Rodman,

12:08

was interviewed by Oprah, to use a ninety

12:10

six. Yeah.

12:11

Okay. because

12:12

I'm just basing it into context Oh,

12:14

yeah. -- timeline. I'm remembering that time

12:16

I was six.

12:18

I'm sure I was away that day watching

12:20

that interview.

12:21

Yes. That would have been one, I think, but you

12:23

would have been like, oh, I don't know who this person is. I

12:25

didn't know. No. And I would have missed, like, my class

12:27

in year one, which was about counting with Domino's

12:30

or something, and I really have struggled. He

12:33

had made headlines throughout the nineties for

12:35

his relationship with actor, calm, and ELECTRA

12:37

and for appearing in light drag on

12:40

a sports illustrated cover the year

12:42

before the interview. In the interview,

12:44

she repeatedly asks him about

12:46

his sexuality. and doesn't

12:49

seem to believe him when he

12:51

says that he isn't gay or bisexual.

12:53

But you are not gay. You're saying that

12:55

you are not here. And if

12:56

you were gay, I believe you would tell

12:57

me. I think so. think it's

13:00

clear that he's

13:01

like, why would I tell you, Oprah? She

13:03

then refers to a passage from

13:06

Rodman's book bad as I wanna be,

13:08

where he writes that in his mind, he's

13:10

bisexual. Are you bisexual? No.

13:12

You're not bisexual. No. You do say,

13:15

in this book, you say that

13:17

maybe in your mind you are. She loves

13:19

reading from people's books. Oh. Opening the page

13:21

and going, I'm gonna read this back to you. And she gets

13:24

quite emotional. She does. He responds,

13:26

I can float with the idea. I can

13:28

float with however you wanna look at it. I can

13:30

do anything I want. That doesn't mean I'm going

13:32

to act and do it. He also

13:35

questions men who would say they would

13:37

never be with man. because he pointed

13:39

out they've never

13:39

experienced it. And

13:41

he said, I'm not gonna go out there and try it,

13:43

but I'm just saying you don't know.

13:45

Windfree went on to ask Rodman if

13:47

he had ever been with man to which he

13:49

replied no. I have to ask him because you just laid

13:51

the door open. So have you you have you

13:53

been with a man? No. have not been with

13:55

a man.

13:55

No. Not having you know, I I can't

13:57

lie to having kissed a man but lips. Mhmm.

13:59

But if you look and go back and if

14:02

you have a son, a

14:03

little boy. How many times you kiss the mother

14:05

lives? After that, she repeats the question.

14:07

She just keeps asking

14:10

him, but have you been with a man? The

14:12

mid nineties, that was a weird time,

14:14

especially for sexuality. No. We all

14:16

got titulated. We we got titulated,

14:18

but there was still an enormous amount of homophobia

14:21

we were asking everyone if they were gay all

14:23

the time because I've renew that would be big news.

14:25

And then more specifically, but have you ever slept

14:27

with a man? But have you ever kissed a man?

14:29

Have you ever touched a man under his pants?

14:32

Yeah. She just won her pride, please. It's

14:34

two PM. She wanted the details. So now

14:36

on Twitter, it's gone viral again,

14:38

and people have responded with things like,

14:40

these old clips of Oprah make me realize

14:43

how problematic she was and how she was able

14:45

to attain her level of success. and

14:48

everybody saying she consistently vilified

14:50

her own community for the white gaze

14:52

for decades. Anyway, people will

14:54

be really really mad at her. But

14:56

I would just like to say, Dennis Rodman

14:59

was really progressive at that time in terms

15:01

of sexuality. Yeah. He was saying things that

15:03

if people said them now, it'd

15:05

be like, yeah, sexuality is fluid. And

15:07

how can you say just didn't have the words free yet.

15:09

No. No. No. She didn't.

15:12

It was a very different time. And

15:14

as I've stated, we're imposing the stance of

15:16

the present on the past. Gail,

15:18

do you think this was a misstep biopra? I

15:21

mean that minutes done forty billion hours

15:23

of television.

15:24

She's gonna ask a man if he's gay four times

15:26

in a row. Yeah. She lost her spot.

15:28

She lost her spot in her questions.

15:31

And she's owned out. And she's owned out. Sorry.

15:33

So let me just ask you again. Oh, you gay?

15:35

And she just asked again and again. And

15:37

for that, I forgive Oprah. She wanted a bit

15:39

of a scandal, probably, a bit of a

15:42

headline. And for that, I don't begrudge

15:44

the woman. No. And then some

15:46

of the comments even now are like,

15:48

Also ironic that Oprah was doing this.

15:51

Look at Gail in the front row. And

15:53

I'm like, what's wrong with Gail? Well,

15:55

because they're implying. that

15:57

Oprah and Gail have a relationship. just

15:59

close platonically. You're close friends.

16:01

And Or we might also

16:04

be more than that. but it's ironic that

16:06

they're doing to Oprah. What Oprah was doing

16:08

today? Yes. That is not very

16:10

fair. clean internet behavior. Yeah.

16:12

Moving on to something just a little bit

16:14

more serious. We've

16:16

talked before on this podcast about doctor

16:18

Phil who opressold as America's psychologist

16:21

despite the fact that he hasn't been licensed

16:23

to practice psychology since two thousand and

16:25

six. No. We speak often about how he is

16:27

his qualifications are in rheumatoid what

16:29

we did say on this podcast that a

16:31

show about rheumatoid arthritis wouldn't go well.

16:34

We got so much hate from the rheumatoid

16:36

arthritis immunity. They're really upset. And you know

16:38

what? The more I look into it,

16:40

looks really painful. It is painful. And

16:42

I'm really sorry. It is painful. but

16:44

I just don't think that it would make an entertainment

16:46

show.

16:47

I don't. Which is why doctor Phil

16:49

had to go, let's give alcohol to an alcoholic

16:51

and see what happens. because that

16:53

was more fun because it's better for the

16:55

razings. He has also

16:58

never been licensed to practice psychology

17:00

in California where he show as

17:02

well as his first appearances on Oprah were

17:04

filmed. But doctor feels actually quite

17:07

legit as far as Oprah's medical

17:09

experts go. Drumroll, please.

17:11

enter doctor Oz. In

17:13

the mid two thousand, she had a man named

17:15

Mammoth Oz on her show, and she

17:17

dubbed him America's doctor.

17:21

Jesse, where did she side him? Yeah.

17:23

Being so controversial. He's

17:26

done segments about conversion therapy

17:28

and framed it as though there are credible

17:30

experts on both sides. He

17:32

promoted green coffee bean extract

17:35

as magic -- Mhmm. -- and a miracle for weight

17:37

loss despite it being found to have no

17:39

weight loss benefits. In September

17:41

twenty sixteen, during Trump's presidential campaign,

17:44

there was all this controversy over Trump's

17:47

refusal to share the results of

17:49

his physical health examination.

17:51

Mhmm. So don't remember that. So doctor Oz was like,

17:53

I'm America's doctor. No. You don't

17:55

have any questions. Come here, Trump. Come here.

17:57

Trump will do it on my show. The

17:59

taping

17:59

was closed to the press. They

18:02

went full Elizabeth Holmes, and they went, you

18:04

are healthy

18:04

man. Well, no. The man has

18:07

forty five diet coke today. and

18:09

doesn't eat very well, it doesn't do enough exercise.

18:11

Well, doctor Oz didn't ask Trump

18:14

any questions he didn't wanna be asked.

18:16

And he literally read the results of

18:19

Trump's health tests from papers

18:21

handed him by none other than Trump.

18:24

Why not share your medical

18:26

records? Why not? Well, I have really no

18:28

problem in doing it. I I have it right here. I

18:30

mean, should I do it? I don't care. A

18:33

recent study found that

18:36

half of doctor Oz's medical

18:38

advice

18:39

is baseless or wrong.

18:41

So look.

18:42

Oprah builds him as America's

18:44

most influential physician and

18:46

now he's promoting treatments. with

18:48

no scientific basis. And he's also

18:50

a Republican senator who's going

18:53

for senator

18:55

thing somewhere, and Oprah had to

18:57

make a statement. Oh, no. And she

19:00

made a statement that was like

19:02

doctor Oz is going for senator,

19:04

you can vote for him or not. That

19:07

was her, like, endorsement of Doctor

19:09

Ofe. I'm so sorry.

19:10

I gave him a platform. I

19:12

put him on your televisions. He

19:14

had this segment about poo. Do you

19:16

remember that? It was called everybody poo.

19:18

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's get right to it. Doctor

19:21

Oz says there are three things you can do

19:23

in the bathroom that

19:25

will keep you living longer. Well,

19:27

it's about using your senses. You're

19:29

gonna hear what the stool, the poop

19:32

sounds

19:32

like when hits the water. If it sounds like a

19:34

bomb a deer, you know, plop plop plop. That's

19:37

not right. It should hit the water like a dive

19:39

if not the Poke hits the water.

19:41

It was an ongoing segment. wasn't just one.

19:43

Yeah. It was really good at talking about

19:45

loved who -- Yeah. -- and loved overweight

19:48

middle aged women. Mhmm. It's kind of just

19:50

yeah. Getting them up and kind of cropping them

19:52

and being like, let's fix that. Great.

19:55

It was a terrible time. We

19:57

spoke earlier about how Oprah crosses

20:00

over with pretty much every episode of

20:02

cancelled we've ever done. And, Jesse, do

20:04

you remember when we did Jim Carrey? And

20:06

we spoke about he and his then wife,

20:09

Jenny McCarthy, going home to and stuff.

20:11

Yes. Mcarthy believes

20:13

that vaccines gave her son autism,

20:16

and she believes that she has treated him

20:18

by giving him a diet

20:20

that doesn't include

20:21

gluten.

20:22

Jesse, who do you think originally gave

20:25

McCarthy the platform to start talking

20:27

about that? Oh, no. It was a little

20:29

bit overdraft. It's two

20:31

thousand and seven in Oprah's McCarthy on

20:34

and literally gives her an audience

20:36

to spread her anti Vax message.

20:38

In the interview, I propresses

20:39

McCarthy for standing up to

20:42

authority and having faith in herself.

20:44

Jesse,

20:44

I actually want you to just

20:46

read this

20:48

Little excerpt. Okay.

20:50

Between

20:51

McAfee and Winfrey.

20:53

McAfee. First thing I did

20:56

Google,

20:57

I put in autism and I

20:59

started my research. So what we say there

21:01

is that she's put into the Google search by autism,

21:03

which is a good place to say, winfrey. Thank

21:05

God for Google. Thanks,

21:06

Oprah. McCarthy,

21:09

I'm

21:09

telling you,

21:10

okay, win free. thank

21:12

God for Google, which is what we're saying

21:14

she likes to repeat.

21:16

Yeah. That was in our moment for her. Okay. McCarthy

21:19

continues. The University of

21:21

Google is where I got my degree from. And

21:23

I put in autism and something came up that

21:25

changed my life that led me on this road recovery,

21:28

which said, autism. It was in

21:30

the corner of the screen, is reversible and

21:32

tradable. And I said, what? This

21:34

has to be an ad for Hocus Pocus thing.

21:36

Because if autism is reversible and treatable,

21:39

well, then it would be on Oprah. Okay.

21:41

I think it was like a hocus pocus. It

21:44

was it was one of those pop up

21:46

ads. Yeah. You know, when you get pop ups that are either

21:48

like A fake news story. A fake

21:50

news story or something about weight loss

21:52

or this woman in the

21:54

south of Russia wants to touch

21:57

you, Willie. And you're like, I don't think she's real.

21:59

I don't or like

21:59

she's waiting. She's waiting for you.

22:02

And it's like, what did I click on to deserve it.

22:04

Yes. I think that's what she found,

22:06

and then she went down rabbit hole. She did

22:08

and then she did end up on

22:09

Oprah. Yeah.

22:11

Several articles about Jenny McCarthy's

22:13

Warriors Spirit are still live on

22:15

Oprah's website that

22:17

talk about how her son is now recovered

22:19

from autism, That's not a thing.

22:21

I also remember that Jenny said at the

22:23

time because I did catch him a few of these episodes,

22:25

and she said that it was her mummy

22:27

instinct. And that's what you're

22:30

not acknowledging. She wrote a book about it.

22:32

Her mommy, mommy, and her mom's always

22:35

nice. They know they know best. And she

22:37

did give him vitamins.

22:38

and that helped. Alright. According to

22:40

her, McCarthy says kids immune

22:43

systems should be tested before

22:45

they have vaccines. It's

22:46

all completely debunked

22:48

but

22:48

still up there on Oprah's side with

22:50

little interrogation. She also that

22:53

book that she wrote was with Andrew Wakefield --

22:55

Yes. -- who is a prominent guy

22:57

who made up the studies about

23:00

the link between autism and vaccinations. He

23:02

is very well known for that. Correct. And

23:04

a lot of people blame Oprah for

23:07

Andrew Wakefield's rise, and

23:09

I guess it's like seven degrees

23:11

of Oprah. Everyone who's ever done

23:13

any bad is linked to Oprah

23:15

through other people because of the forty billion

23:17

hours of television. That's the thing. And then

23:19

the other thing is that Oprah

23:22

existed in the nineties. And it

23:24

was a weird time. We were. We were

23:26

doubling in anti vax. We were

23:28

fat phobic. we were titulated by

23:30

the gays. There was a lot going on

23:32

where we were not our best selves in the nineties

23:34

in Oprah was just a mirror. Okay. This is

23:37

the thing about Oprah. If

23:38

we went down to the street right now and there was

23:40

a line of three hundred people, she

23:42

joined the line. She

23:44

doesn't need to know what the lines fall, And

23:46

you know what? You'd end up the line. The

23:48

line would be for the toilet. She didn't need to go.

23:50

No. But she would

23:52

get in that line. And that is what

23:55

made her brilliant because

23:57

she was got a nose. She's got a nose

23:59

for what people care about. Which is what you've often

24:01

said when people say, Clara.

24:03

why you're so good at your job? You say,

24:05

oh, my secret is? Oh my, basically. Allow

24:08

me to explain. I am the lowest

24:10

common denominator. And it helps me in my

24:12

career. Yeah. I'm not saying Oprah is the lowest common

24:15

denominator. She is me, Gail's best friend.

24:17

But she is a basic bitch.

24:19

Yeah. When the average person starts

24:22

going I'm feeling a bit woo woo. Hope

24:24

it's like, I'm there. The secret. I

24:27

haven't let me I have three psychics. They're

24:29

gonna read it. You want a new car? We're all

24:31

gonna Philadelphia. What? She

24:34

just She's on it. She's

24:37

got her finger on the pulse.

24:39

She does. So I do think that she's a product

24:41

of her time. Mhmm. In two

24:43

thousand and nine, Oprah signed

24:45

McCarthy to a deal with her company.

24:48

starting with writing a blog on Oprah's

24:50

website. When Oprah was challenged

24:52

about that, a spokesperson for her

24:55

told SLATE that McCarthy's views were

24:57

more nuanced than

24:58

the writer was presenting them. So she really

25:00

doubled down on the defending of McCarthy.

25:03

Then

25:04

there's the secret. Have you heard about

25:06

it? This is the

25:06

secret to creating the like you truly

25:09

want. Make more money. Who's way? Ball in

25:11

love? land your dream job. Isn't that

25:13

amazing? This is life changing. I

25:15

like the secret. Oprah loves the secret.

25:18

Well, yeah. Oprah and I took out a sleepovers.

25:21

Basically, the secret is a

25:23

mystical self help system that

25:26

says thinking good thoughts can cure emotional,

25:28

financial and physical problems.

25:30

And it was a book and a movie? Yes.

25:33

It was like DVDs. Yeah. I remember

25:35

getting the DVDs from the workshop once and then

25:37

putting them in and and I was actually quite boring.

25:39

I like bringing idea of it. I

25:41

liked having it near me. Yeah. It's essentially

25:43

the law of attraction. The idea like manifestation.

25:46

Yeah. Yeah. And it's the idea that you'll stacked

25:48

into your life, whatever you focus on.

25:50

I like it because it sounds easy. So the reason

25:52

that I liked the idea of this secret was I thought,

25:54

well, if I just think about x, then

25:56

it'll happen, which is easier than

25:58

say, working hard. Exactly.

25:59

Or eating more green. So

26:02

that's

26:02

what I liked about the secret. Oprah

26:04

endorsed it. The secret went on to

26:06

become one of the fastest selling books

26:08

and probably the most successful in

26:11

commercial in history. Oprah's

26:14

very first show about the secret

26:16

was seen by a woman named Kim

26:18

Tinkham, who had been diagnosed breast

26:20

cancer shit. In two thousand and seven,

26:23

Kim told Winfrey that the secret had

26:25

motivated her to ignore her doctors

26:27

and heal herself.

26:28

She turned away from traditional medicine

26:31

and the advice that she needed immediate surgery

26:33

and treatment. In

26:35

Wimfrey's defense, she did try to

26:37

talk Tinkham out of it. you have

26:39

access in

26:40

this country to the

26:42

most, you know, profound, you

26:44

know, medical treatment. Right.

26:46

I feel that you should use that.

26:49

You should take advantage of that. And

26:51

while you're taking advantage of that, think

26:53

is positively. Think

26:54

about attracting, healing to yourself.

26:57

think about the goodness that the healing will

26:59

bring to yourself, but I don't think

27:01

that you should ignore

27:04

all of the advantages of medical

27:06

science. She said the law of attraction

27:08

is not the answer to everything. It is not

27:10

the answer to address cancer or

27:12

every tragedy. Very good Oprah.

27:15

but Tingham did not listen. She

27:17

was determined to heal herself and

27:19

she died three years later. And

27:21

that is the impact.

27:23

of pseudoscience

27:25

on reading Not Oprah's fault.

27:27

Like, it wasn't meant to be about health.

27:29

It was intended to be about dreaming, and this is the thing

27:32

about successful people. famous rich

27:34

people love manifestation because

27:36

it helps them justify how they got where they got.

27:38

They're like I thought I'd get here. Yeah.

27:40

think everybody think that they'll

27:42

get there, but many don't. And that

27:44

is crushing. Exactly.

27:48

But Oprah, she did very

27:50

overtly say, you can believe in

27:52

this stuff and also get mastectomy.

27:55

You can believe in this stuff and also follow traditional

27:57

medicine. but a lot of people said it was

27:59

too little too late. I can understand

28:01

how by promoting positive thinking

28:04

in the law of attraction, she would

28:06

not have seen that it could have these kinds

28:08

of outcomes. No. I agree. But,

28:11

I mean, this was more

28:13

than fifteen

28:13

years ago.

28:15

People are still

28:16

advocating this stuff. Mhmm.

28:18

And with very, very little interrogation

28:20

considering what we know now, What

28:23

do you think, Gail? I think that there's

28:25

nothing wrong with positive thinking. Just

28:27

don't stop going to work or going to your

28:29

local GP when something is alarming.

28:31

Okay. Thank you, Karen. It's incredibly

28:33

helpful. A problematic interview

28:36

with the Olsen twins. In two thousand

28:38

and four, Mary Kate Olson was

28:40

being relentlessly photographed and written

28:42

about because everyone suspected she

28:44

had an eating disorder. Merikate

28:47

Nashli who was seventeen at the time

28:49

appeared on Oprah. We loved

28:51

Merikate. They were iconic iconic.

28:54

They were into of a kind York,

28:56

New York Minich, obviously, full

28:58

house. So quite young then, but we grew up

29:00

with the awesome twins. I loved that. And they were

29:02

so much better looking, and I remember thinking

29:05

I'd like to like that one day. I I somehow

29:07

thought because I was a twin I deserved to

29:09

be to look like more attractive. Mhmm.

29:11

I felt exactly the same. they

29:13

really destigmatized twins. The sisters

29:16

who were seventeen at the time appeared on Oprah.

29:18

And when the video resurfaced recently,

29:21

people interpreted the interview as an sensitive.

29:23

So Oprah asked Mary Kate. I don't know if

29:25

there's a new

29:26

one that's recently surfaced. Has really upset

29:28

you. Right?

29:29

You know, the one about eating. was another

29:31

thing. We were collated by sexuality

29:34

and eating disorders. Yeah. We

29:36

loved it. We loved to ask questions, and this

29:38

was the thing. We needed details. It revealed

29:40

a real anger towards women with eating

29:42

disorders. There was a sense of like Don't

29:44

gate keep this from me? Yeah. It was

29:48

really screwed up. It was Why don't you

29:50

just eat? Mhmm. And it was also

29:52

like, why

29:53

don't you tell us how you're losing weight? Like,

29:55

it was this really messed up thing as old wasn't a mental

29:57

illness. is really screwed up. So Ashley

29:59

the

30:00

responded and said, yeah, you know, people

30:03

are gonna write what they wanna write. We

30:05

try not to read the good or the bad because

30:08

it just kinda comes with the territory. Mhmm.

30:10

You know, either you're too fat, you're

30:12

too skinny, and people are just gonna write what

30:14

they Which size are you, by the way? Okay.

30:16

We don't ask somebody with name to sort of what size

30:18

they are.

30:19

Ashley We don't ask anyone. No, Ashley.

30:21

Oh, yeah. We don't ask anyone. Ashley

30:23

asks size. then

30:25

adds, I'm short, as

30:26

a clear attempt to deflect, and the

30:28

audience starts laughing. Five. Yeah. I

30:30

understand what is worse. I you're not

30:33

sure. Girls and -- Oh, you know. -- so interesting.

30:37

That

30:37

is so interesting. I'm, like, obsessed

30:39

with size. And you're like, I

30:42

really don't know. Later that

30:44

same year, Mary Kate checked into a rehabilitation

30:46

facility to seek treatment for a food

30:48

related health disorder.

30:50

Now in hindsight, it seems incredibly

30:52

cruel to publicly interrogate someone

30:55

about their weight when it was suspected that

30:57

they were experiencing a severe eating

30:59

to order. Anorexia in

31:01

particular is one of the deadliest mental

31:03

health conditions, and this was a seventeen

31:06

year old being questioned on international

31:09

television. Jesse, as gayle,

31:11

what would you say? I would say

31:13

that one of the reasons I love my good

31:15

friend are

31:16

pro win free or

31:17

awful impression as I I call

31:19

her affectionately, is it

31:21

she's imperfect. Mhmm. She has an Achilles heel.

31:23

What is the Achilles heel? Wait. Why is

31:25

it weight because people have been criticizing

31:28

her for her weight for her entire career? At this

31:30

stage, maybe thirty years.

31:31

She's obsessed with it.

31:33

She sees these girls, she says, why

31:35

are you so skinny? We just don't ask that.

31:37

I can see that you're

31:39

angry, potentially hostile. because

31:42

of your own issues. We will get

31:44

to

31:44

the wagon wheel of fat or whatever it's called.

31:47

You'll get there. And that reveals some

31:49

of

31:50

or positions. Some of where this was coming from.

31:52

And this is something we've discussed before on

31:54

this show.

31:55

Sometimes,

31:57

you need to go to therapy and sort your own

31:59

issues with

31:59

weight out. Grade advice. And that's

32:02

what she needed to do probably. rather

32:04

in the eighties. In -- Yeah. -- in the house. --

32:06

rather than

32:08

I mean,

32:09

yell at Mary Kate. I think that

32:12

would have been a more effective way of doing it. don't

32:14

think she would do it now, but yes, in

32:16

hindsight, it was a little bit inappropriate. We

32:18

have talked about it in private. we have.

32:20

It just wasn't right.

32:21

the

32:24

he it

32:30

I

32:30

have one more thing I would like to. Okay.

32:32

Go go go. I looked

32:34

through to try and just fresh my memory

32:36

of like my favorite Oprah

32:38

episodes. Right? And I was reminded

32:40

of one. Okay. So in the late nineteen

32:42

eighties, Oprah kind of ran out

32:44

of ideas for shows. Well, it's good that she continued

32:47

-- Yeah. -- so long. Yes. I think she got,

32:49

like, some help. Yeah. In nineteen eighty

32:51

eight, she convinced

32:53

Gales, that's me.

32:55

Mom, to get a haircut. That was a whole

32:57

episode. Okay. Just let's get her

32:59

at

32:59

hair cut to give her bit of a makeover. Another

33:02

one she did when she ran out of ideas,

33:04

she thought let's find Gail's

33:06

first boyfriend She

33:08

got a whole show. Yes. That was a whole show.

33:10

I love the

33:11

Gail's mind for content. She

33:14

really, really wants it. I convinced Gail's

33:16

to be reunited with the first guy

33:18

she ever said, I love you

33:19

too. Yeah. Yeah. And Gail hasn't

33:22

seen her high school

33:22

sweetheart and twenty years

33:24

ago. Oh, there was also one episode about

33:26

the real home alone, the

33:27

real life home alone. That's a great title.

33:29

It's a great I was like, this

33:32

unpickering this to the website. This

33:34

family really did leave their son behind and

33:36

they were done for child like neglect.

33:39

And then it was a whole thing about how long you can leave

33:41

your child behind. This is one standing

33:43

concert. her editorial. Contouring.

33:45

show. Okay. Ninja

33:48

Turtles. Have you seen this? No. The

33:50

Ninja Turtles were promoting a tour and

33:52

an album called, coming

33:54

out of nature.

34:01

Really weird

34:02

time. It is a really, really weird time. Something

34:04

really into the Ninja Turtles. I remember from

34:06

the age of five being like a hidden. No.

34:08

I was listening to children Same as Shadow

34:10

Moon. Same as Shadow Moon. Same as Shadow Moon. They got

34:13

it for me, never did it for me.

34:15

It was basically a one hour

34:17

infomercial. Oh, she would have been paid

34:19

so so much for me. But it

34:21

was really weird. Like, they were all dressed

34:23

up as Ninja Turtles

34:24

the whole time. And they spoke like Ninja

34:26

Turtles, so they said things like cow or booga over

34:28

and over again. Oh, just over here.

34:30

No more. Oh, right. These are

34:32

right here. Oh, here we come. Yo.

34:36

Cal funky dude. go back again.

34:38

Rafael said he was pursuing an interspecies

34:41

relationship. Is there anything, like, romantic

34:43

or anything?

34:44

Oh, crap. We'll try to talk her into an interspecies

34:46

relationship for months now. And she

34:50

won't do it. She can't do it. No. She can't

34:52

do it. The biggest problem is she can't wanna breathe long

34:54

enough. You know, I think it didn't

34:57

make any sense. Oprah

34:59

asks a little boy in the

35:01

audience if he dug their new album

35:03

and the little boy scrunched up his face and

35:05

said no. They were asked about their favorite pizza because

35:08

Oprah was clearly running out of content and she's

35:10

like, what's your favorite pizza? And

35:12

they said pizza hut is in our

35:13

contracts. Okay?

35:16

Then I found a Reddit

35:18

thread, you know, the Reddit thread

35:20

that's like slash cringe -- Yes. -- that's

35:23

like the whole thing. And there were just children

35:25

who remembered watching it as kids. And they

35:26

were like, yeah, I remember watching this as a kid

35:29

at being like, this is

35:30

weird. This is really weird.

35:33

And you know that Oprah walked us at and went

35:35

and walked us was that.

35:38

And what do you end today? We're never doing

35:40

that again, and that was a lot of Fully branded

35:42

up tomorrow of the euphoria.

35:46

Tomorrow is

35:47

Gail's second boyfriend. And

35:49

then the next episode is Gail's second

35:51

boyfriend. I will do that before I get a

35:53

ninja total back on this show. Okay.

35:56

She's like, I know what my audience

35:58

want. They want more gay

36:00

off. Exactly. But

36:02

this, it was like, For

36:04

children,

36:05

it was really, really inappropriate. And they think

36:07

that the Ninja Turtles are actually

36:08

making really like sexual adult jokes. They

36:11

were just so bored and talking about Pizza Hut. I

36:14

have to say, if you're gonna

36:16

do thousands of episodes of

36:18

television in the

36:20

weird time that was the nineties

36:22

and two thousands. You're gonna end

36:24

up in the Ninja

36:24

Turtle. We should have that in our

36:27

jobs every now and then we'll go out the Ninja Turtle

36:29

day. That

36:30

was a Ninja Turtle day. Wasn't it? That was

36:32

just not my best. We weren't speaking with it again.

36:34

And it's, like, is out. We're

36:37

releasing it. Absolutely. People will

36:39

see it and they're gonna go, oh. That

36:42

was weird. And can you imagine

36:44

if you'd taken a day off?

36:46

and you sit down and do that's

36:48

why reckon I've watched this. I think I took a day

36:50

off. I went, I've missed maths, I've missed

36:52

English, I've missed sport. but

36:54

it's two o'clock and I have a something pop

36:56

like popcorn. Yeah. And I sat down and

36:58

I've gone, is this seriously a Ninja Turtles Information?

37:01

because this is not what I was saying. And there is nothing

37:03

on on the other channel. That is all

37:05

we have time for today. But please

37:07

join us next week for part two of

37:09

our cancelled series about Oprah.

37:12

Next week, we'll jump into such things as

37:14

when she defended a fake book, Harvey

37:16

Weinstein, what was going on with

37:18

him, and did she know about it?

37:21

Her weird weight loss era that went

37:23

on for far too long and

37:26

a bunch of lies that she's accused

37:27

of telling me. I don't

37:29

know if they're true.

37:31

And of course, we'll deliver our charges

37:33

and sentences because what

37:35

happens to cool. When you have a recess,

37:37

you don't give your charging attention to

37:39

events. You have to wait until you

37:41

come back. Is this a recess? That's the reason.

37:43

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't you know how

37:45

cool? No. Not really. We are still gonna

37:47

have receipts from today's episode. on

37:50

our Instagram. And if you wanted

37:52

to leave us a review, you could also do

37:54

that. The executive producer of

37:56

canceled is Tolisa Bazaz, We

37:59

will talk to you next

37:59

week. Bye. Bye.