0:00

So I had this , you know , paused and

0:02

perplexed face . And then my friends are

0:04

all asking what's wrong , what's going on

0:06

, who are we gonna go and handle

0:08

? And one thing

0:11

leads to another . And

0:13

I tell my friends that I got accepted to college

0:15

, and so the train just goes wild

0:17

. My friends start banging on the windows , everybody's

0:21

cheering . They're like yo

0:24

, mommy is going to college , mommy

0:26

is going to college . And that was a , you

0:29

know , a climactic moment for me , where

0:31

I realized that I was going to go off and do something

0:33

different in my life .

0:35

Welcome to Career Tree Code . In this podcast

0:37

, you'll hear how everyday people impact the world through

0:40

their careers . Learn about their journey , career

0:42

hacks and obstacles along the way . Whether you're

0:44

already having the impact you want or are searching

0:47

for it , this is the podcast for you . All

0:49

right , jose , welcome

0:52

to the show .

0:53

Thanks for having me .

0:54

I appreciate you taking the time to connect today , and

0:56

you know let's now waste

0:58

the audience time . Let's dive right in man . Let's

1:00

tell the world what it is you do for a living .

1:02

Yeah , so I'm Jose Emanuel

1:05

Alfarro Flore Para Horazán , just by Alarys

1:07

, or Jose Alfarro for short

1:09

. I'm the director of Latinx

1:11

Leadership and Community Engagement . So that means

1:14

you know I like to look at my work in

1:16

four major buckets . One

1:18

is working across the organization

1:20

to develop

1:22

strategies to engage Latinx communities

1:24

. Two is to work

1:27

with our national , state and local partners

1:29

to elevate gun violence as

1:31

an issue in our communities . Three

1:33

is identifying

1:35

Latinx leaders in gun violence spaces

1:38

or non-conventional gun violence spaces

1:40

so that we're able to elevate

1:43

them and also bring them into our ecosystem

1:45

as an organization , because we have a number of resources

1:47

. And then three is

1:50

helping diversify and expand the movement by

1:52

working with our like Moms Demand Action Chapters

1:54

and Students Demand Action Chapters , which

1:56

are grassroots arms of the organization

1:59

.

2:00

Mm . Okay , so tell me about . So

2:02

what is ultimately the purpose of your organization , what is it called

2:04

and what do y'all do ?

2:05

Yeah , so every town for gun safety is the nation's

2:08

largest gun violence prevention organization

2:10

, and so a lot of our work is really focused on

2:12

ending gun violence Any and all ways

2:14

and shapes and forms that it shows up , whether

2:16

it's gun homicide , gun

2:18

suicide , police violence . We

2:21

also , you know , we obviously work

2:23

in mass tragedies

2:25

like Uvalde

2:27

, like Pulse and other mass tragedies

2:30

that have happened across the United States as well , and

2:32

so that's what we do .

2:34

Got it . Is this what you always wanted to do for

2:36

a living ?

2:37

No . So you know I have

2:39

a really unconventional path to

2:41

this work . A lot of you

2:43

know my journey kind of has its ups

2:45

and flows , and so I'm happy to talk a

2:47

little bit about that . But you know

2:49

, my earliest memories of what I wanted to be were

2:52

an astronaut . I didn't get the chance

2:54

to see that in my neighborhood , in my

2:56

community , and I didn't know what it took to be an astronaut

2:59

as a young person , and

3:01

so the next career options for me were

3:03

to be a drug dealer . You know , I saw members

3:06

of my community engaged in the drug

3:08

trade , I saw how lucrative it was

3:10

, and so that was the really

3:13

interesting kind of career point or

3:16

kind of reflection of a career choice

3:18

that I had . And so , you

3:21

know , my goals obviously changed over

3:23

time and through the years . When

3:25

I finally went to

3:27

college , I wanted

3:29

to work with young boys and teens in

3:32

supporting their healing journey , and so I

3:35

wanted to be a therapist . And

3:37

it wasn't until , you know , I

3:39

was in college that I met a

3:42

number of really great activists and organizers

3:44

, a couple of really amazing and influential professors

3:47

that I got involved in , you

3:50

know , local work and campus-based

3:52

mobilizing . So that

3:55

led me on a trajectory that would be

3:57

, you know , now , 15 years long .

3:59

Wow , okay . So let's backtrack a little

4:01

, when you wanted to go to space and the community

4:03

that you were seeing these drug dealers

4:06

. Where was that ? Where were you born , where were you raised

4:08

? Where's your family from All of those things

4:10

?

4:11

Yeah , absolutely so . My parents

4:13

are from El Salvador , so both of my parents

4:15

are immigrants to the United

4:18

States . And you know , I was born and raised

4:20

in New York City , in Jamaica , queens

4:22

, and that's where I lived and grew

4:24

up till I was about 17 . You know

4:26

, for me , my experience is influenced

4:29

by a number of different factors right , being

4:31

the son of immigrants and what it means to be

4:33

the son of immigrants who don't

4:35

speak English , who don't have formal educations

4:37

, but are , you know

4:39

, doing the best that they can to navigate

4:42

these systems and navigate

4:45

a new culture and space , while trying

4:47

to raise children the

4:49

other pieces that Queens is one of the

4:51

most diverse places on earth , where the world's

4:53

burrow . And so a lot of my experience

4:56

is influenced by

4:58

the community that I was raised in , right

5:00

, whether it was living with and being

5:02

in proximity to black communities

5:05

, to Asian and South Asian communities

5:07

, to European

5:09

communities and other Latinx communities

5:11

. My experience was one that was very

5:13

working class and very immigrant centered

5:15

. In fact I tell this story often . I

5:18

don't remember understanding

5:21

what whiteness was in

5:23

the context of the United States until

5:25

I left New York , because

5:27

a lot of the people who

5:30

identify as white , who benefit

5:32

from white privilege , who benefit from these systems

5:34

, though they may or may not know it , were

5:37

first generation immigrants or immigrants

5:39

themselves . They were Polish , they were German

5:41

, they were Italian , they were Greek , and

5:43

so a lot of the conversations

5:46

and even thought processes around

5:49

social identity were very different

5:51

than when I went to college in

5:53

the state of Maryland , where

5:56

, you know , I was introduced to people

5:58

who's you know great , great , great grandparents

6:00

were born and raised in

6:03

this country , and getting a better understanding of kind

6:06

of both the differences

6:08

in whiteness and access

6:10

to that legacy , but then also

6:12

getting a better understanding of this country's history

6:15

.

6:16

That makes a lot of sense . Okay , so you're in high school

6:18

, you are looking

6:20

at your surroundings in Queens , recognizing

6:23

that you're in this the phrase is melting

6:25

pot , but I like to use bento box of

6:27

New York City and seeing how , like a lot

6:29

of you know , it's a lot of us and we're all

6:31

coexisting , but also many , a lot of folks kind of end

6:33

up in their own pockets in

6:36

some regard . So , as you're

6:38

in Queens , tell me about what happens

6:40

when you're , like in your junior year . Are you about to graduate

6:43

and like thinking I'm gonna go to college directly

6:45

, I'm gonna get a job , or are you looking

6:47

at things and saying , well , or I could go

6:49

on this other path and make some money ? Like , what are you doing

6:51

? Circa 10th , 11th grade

6:54

?

6:54

So I realized that I was a really bad drug dealer . It

6:57

is not an occupation that I

7:00

was good at , for a number of different reasons

7:02

, but I did get involved

7:04

and engaged with street organizations , and at the

7:06

time , you know , I became a member

7:08

of the Latin Kings . I was

7:11

in high school but I had a , you

7:13

know , a series of learning disabilities

7:15

that weren't identified until , you

7:17

know , I was well into my teens , and

7:19

so by that time I remember

7:21

being in my sophomore

7:24

year and my guidance counselor

7:26

telling me that I wasn't going to be able to graduate

7:28

and in fact I was gonna be getting referred

7:31

out , or rather pushed out of

7:33

the public education system , because

7:35

I hadn't had enough credits to be able

7:37

to graduate on time with my peers

7:39

and if I were to try

7:42

to catch up , I

7:44

wouldn't be able to catch up till I was at least

7:46

over 18 , or

7:48

over 20 , rather . So you

7:51

know a lot of the ways

7:53

that I internalized

7:55

that was that I stopped

7:57

caring about school altogether . I

8:00

hung out a lot and I cut school

8:02

and I was in the streets and I would get into brawls

8:04

and rumbles . I lived on

8:06

the other side of Queens , so you know , I went

8:08

to school in Long Island City , I

8:10

had Queens Vocational Technical High School , and

8:13

I lived in Jamaica , and so it was a 45

8:15

minute train ride . I took the F to the

8:17

seven and then hopped off the seven and

8:19

was in a whole different part of Queens right , and

8:22

that was . That meant that a lot of the dirt

8:24

that I did in some of those communities

8:26

never got back to me at home , in my own

8:28

community as well . You know , by the time that

8:30

I was 16 , I was , I was out of high

8:32

school and I had to figure out what

8:34

I wanted to do . When my parents gave me an option , they said

8:37

you know , get a GED , or you go straight

8:39

to work or you get out of our house . Solid

8:42

options , solid , real solid . So

8:47

I remember

8:49

going to take my assessment for

8:51

my GED and

8:53

you know the results came back

8:55

in and I had

8:57

pretty much completed all of the requisites

8:59

that I needed for English . But I had

9:02

some math that I needed to work on , and so it

9:04

was about a three month period that I was in

9:06

an ADEX Learning Center . It was Jamaica

9:08

Learning Center on Hillside Avenue and

9:10

164th Street

9:13

. That was an experience , because

9:16

at that point I didn't

9:18

I still didn't know what I wanted to do and

9:20

I was working full time . So I was going

9:22

to the city as a bus boy

9:24

and waiter In the city in the Chelsea

9:26

district , and coming back and forth , and

9:29

I was exposed to in the city

9:31

, people from different walks of life , right

9:33

when you go to Manhattan for those

9:35

who may not be aware , we call Manhattan the city

9:38

I was exposed to a lot of the

9:40

hustle and bustle of Manhattan , people that

9:42

were coming in and transplants who were following

9:44

their dreams , artists , actors

9:47

, people who wanted to make it in New

9:49

York or in the show business on Broadway , and

9:52

I got exposure to all of these different

9:54

kinds of folks and I remember one

9:56

of my colleagues asking

9:58

me what I wanted to do and I just

10:00

didn't have any answers for them . These were

10:02

folks who convinced me to

10:04

try to think about my future

10:06

right , and try to go to college

10:09

and figure out what I wanted to do , help

10:11

me through my college , my

10:14

GED journey and , inevitably , through

10:16

my college journey as well . There

10:18

came a point where I was walking home from work

10:20

one day and I saw my

10:23

former guidance

10:25

counselor from , I think , junior high school

10:28

, and my guidance counselor asked me

10:30

what I was doing . But I was up to and I just told

10:32

him I had finished my GED , I

10:35

was working in the city but didn't really have any

10:38

plans . He recommended a book to me

10:40

which was life-changing

10:42

. It was the Alchemist by

10:44

Pablo Coelho , and I would read this book

10:46

on my way to and from work had a good

10:48

45 minute ride on the F

10:51

to the E , so I would read this

10:53

book in its entirety , and it talked about

10:55

following your destiny and

10:58

learning your path and

11:00

listening to the world as it comes

11:02

to you , and at that point

11:04

I really started to think about where

11:07

I wanted to go and what I wanted to do , and this

11:09

guidance counselor then proposed

11:11

that I signed up for

11:14

a university that he knew

11:16

about in this small Christian college

11:18

in Tacoma Park , maryland

11:20

, then Columbia Union College , now

11:23

Washington Adventist University . Lo and

11:25

behold , I applied

11:27

to the university

11:29

One

11:31

day . I'm coming home from far rock , away from the beach , with

11:34

a bunch of friends , also members of my

11:36

street organization . We had just finished the

11:38

rumble and so you can imagine

11:41

a young teenager in a

11:43

tank top , bloody knuckles

11:45

, disgust on his face

11:47

, timberland prints

11:49

on my tank top . I get a phone call

11:52

. This was when cell phones

11:54

are just kind of coming in , right , I have my little

11:56

. Next tell . My mom calls me on . My

11:58

next tell . I have the little

12:00

flashing antenna with the lights and

12:03

my mom calls me , crying . She's

12:05

crying and I'm asking what's

12:08

wrong , what's going on ? My friends kind

12:10

of pause and it's about like 20

12:12

of us in this . In

12:15

our train car , on our way back home into

12:17

Jamaica , my mom tells me

12:19

that I got into college and

12:22

I didn't realize it at the time

12:24

. I didn't have any expectations of

12:26

going to college . I didn't have any expectations of getting

12:29

into any of these schools . So I had

12:31

this paused and perplexed face

12:33

and then my friends are all asking

12:35

what's wrong , what's going on , who are we going to go

12:38

and handle ? And

12:40

one thing leads to another , and

12:43

I tell my friends that I got accepted to college

12:45

, and so the train just goes wild

12:47

. My friends start banging on the windows , everybody's

12:51

cheering . They're

12:54

like yo mommy is going to college , mommy

12:56

is going to college . And that was

12:59

a climactic moment for me , where

13:01

I realized that I was going to go off and do something

13:03

different in my life .

13:06

That's a very visual and

13:08

fascinating story and it also seems very

13:10

movie-esque , right , and that you are coming

13:12

from literally a

13:15

fight , a rumble , and in that moment

13:17

you are presented an opportunity to go in a different

13:19

direction and I love that your friends

13:22

embrace that and that your friends cheer that

13:24

and encourage that at the moment

13:26

, because that's not always the case

13:28

. I also appreciate you sharing that story right

13:30

, because I think if you see Jose

13:33

out hosting a panel or

13:35

doing his thing , organizing and bringing

13:38

people together , he's a very professional

13:40

, human right . And you see him at the

13:42

White House , you see him in Aspen , you see

13:44

him in different events and he carries this

13:46

whole story that we

13:48

don't always know and we don't know that

13:50

he's faced life-threatening situations

13:53

and chose to do so for a while

13:55

and that was the norm . And

13:57

he is able to bring those experiences

13:59

to the job , to

14:01

any room , any setting . He's able to represent

14:04

for his peers that

14:06

are still part of street

14:08

organizations and are still doing what they have

14:10

to do to survive in different spaces . But

14:13

he represents for that and there's

14:15

a space for that and there's so much value in having that perspective

14:18

that a lot of other working professionals

14:20

just would not have . So I appreciate you sharing

14:22

that and being open about that , because I think it's super

14:24

important .

14:25

Absolutely . I appreciate you just putting

14:27

me on . I think a lot of what

14:30

I do is influenced by my past . Without

14:33

going into too much detail

14:35

, street organizations by and large

14:38

serve a number of different purposes . Street

14:40

organizations will usually have a

14:42

code of conduct or a

14:45

compilation of lessons , things

14:47

that members have to

14:50

memorize , have to live by in

14:52

some way , shape or form . This is the way

14:54

that kids , young people , get G-checked

14:56

If you don't know your lessons , then you're

14:58

going to get G-checked and people are going to find out

15:00

that you're not a member of these street organizations

15:03

. When

15:06

I read the manifesto and constitution

15:09

for this street organization , one

15:11

of the descriptions for

15:14

the term kingism was

15:16

to be in service of and

15:19

fighting for all oppressed people

15:21

of the Third World . Now that has

15:23

different connotations and different

15:26

spaces in different

15:28

contexts , but I took that to

15:30

heart and I think it's guided my

15:32

decision to do work in

15:35

different communities and on

15:37

intersecting issues . I don't think that

15:39

I would have an intersectional lens without

15:42

being so tied to

15:44

that phrase . Because , that means all

15:46

oppressed people , that means LGBTQ

15:48

family , that means our trans siblings

15:51

, that means our disabled siblings , that means

15:53

any and all marginalized groups of people

15:55

that we oftentimes

15:58

live on the margins , that are oftentimes

16:00

not thought of when we think about the freedom and liberation

16:02

of Latinx folks or brown

16:05

people .

16:05

And I took that to heart . So you get

16:07

this . Call Everyone's cheering . Talk

16:09

to me about time frame . Is this the summertime

16:11

and you recognize I'm going to go off ? In the fall

16:14

, what happens next ? Then tell me

16:16

about that next phase of this journey , because there's a

16:18

pivotal moment in your life .

16:19

Yeah , so this was

16:21

I want to say

16:23

mid June . Okay . So

16:26

you know , most folks are out of school . We

16:28

were , you know , just out and

16:30

about , and so I was . Usually

16:32

, if I wasn't working , we were in the handball

16:34

court where we were trying

16:37

to tag up a wall or we were just hanging out

16:39

on a corner . You know , whatever

16:41

we were able to do , we just we did as

16:43

young people . And when I told my , when

16:45

my parents found out , I think we

16:48

had a realization

16:50

that our lives were going to change and my parents

16:53

also now had a

16:56

out of New York and they

16:58

had always wanted

17:00

to leave . You know we were . We were in Jamaica

17:02

living in a

17:05

500 square foot apartment . You

17:07

know there were four of us . It was a

17:09

two bedroom apartment and I was

17:11

a teenager at this point , so I wanted

17:13

my own room . My younger brother , who's four years younger

17:15

than me , had to sleep in

17:17

the living room . He slept on a sofa bed for years

17:20

because I wanted

17:22

my own room and

17:24

my parents were working . You know , two

17:27

jobs , three jobs at a time . My

17:30

mother was a housekeeper , my father worked

17:32

on transmissions and then they both went to clean

17:34

offices in the evenings and

17:37

I came . I would come in and out of the house . I'd

17:39

be home at all types of night . We

17:42

had a Roach infestation

17:44

and we had mice infestations , and so I

17:46

remember coming home and trying to take

17:49

showers , and I would

17:51

literally take the shower handle to

17:53

wash out all of the roaches

17:55

that were , that were in the shower tub

17:58

. And so this was a space

18:00

where my parents

18:02

finally had an opportunity

18:04

to think outside of New York

18:06

City , and my father had always wanted

18:08

to be in Maryland . His

18:11

father , my grandfather , had lived

18:13

in Virginia for a while , and

18:15

when my father first came to the United States , virginia

18:18

was his landing point . Fun

18:21

fact , virginia , the DMV area

18:23

, is home to one of the largest Salvadorian

18:25

populations in the country . What

18:28

, you know , puerto Ricans and Caribbean

18:30

folks are to New York City , or what Cubans

18:33

are to Miami , salvadorians are to DC

18:35

. And so so very

18:37

rich and thriving Salvadorian culture

18:40

, where , you know , our

18:42

communities haven't been influenced

18:44

by other Latin

18:47

American groups , and so you can still

18:49

hear a lot of the accents

18:51

from the motherland in

18:53

this very particular region in Washington

18:56

DC , which I think is really dope .

18:57

That's awesome and , I'm sure , the best food that

19:00

you can . That reminds you of home around that

19:02

area .

19:02

Man . I mean you can just get everything here

19:04

. There are snacks

19:07

and treats that I can get here , that I can't get

19:09

in other places , that are just really exciting . So

19:12

, you know , my parents decide that

19:14

they don't want my younger brother to go through the New York

19:16

public education system because

19:19

they saw how that ended up for me

19:21

and my brother was

19:23

going into high school and I was going into college

19:25

. So , again , four years apart , we

19:28

you know , he was a freshman in high school

19:30

, I was a freshman in college and

19:32

he decides , and so my

19:34

parents decide to move

19:36

to Maryland , to Gaithersburg

19:38

, maryland , and

19:41

being close proximity to my

19:44

university , one so that , you

19:46

know , we could always have a home base if

19:48

ever I needed one , but two so that my younger

19:50

brother could have a different education

19:52

than I did . Montgomery County

19:55

has , at least

19:57

at the time , had one of the

19:59

best rated public

20:02

education systems in the country , and

20:04

so it was beneficial for my younger brother

20:06

to go . And so , you

20:09

know , we started . You know I started

20:11

college not having any orientation

20:14

. My parents , again , never

20:16

went to college . We didn't have anybody in our family

20:18

that had gone to college , and this is

20:20

also the story for a lot of you know first

20:22

generation Americans . My

20:24

story isn't unique , but

20:26

we had to figure

20:29

it all out right Fast-for-applications

20:31

, student loan applications , taking

20:34

remedial courses , what

20:36

it meant for me to now

20:38

be in a structured environment where

20:41

before I had no structure . The university

20:43

had a curfew policy for

20:46

freshmen and sophomores . We

20:49

had to be in the home or

20:51

in our dorms rather by 11

20:53

pm and you know , here

20:55

is a kid who was working

20:58

until 12 midnight 1

21:00

am , then going out to

21:02

a party or to hang out with

21:04

the crew and then coming home

21:07

, you know , really early in the morning

21:09

to now having to be in this

21:11

space by 11 o'clock

21:13

, which I just

21:15

couldn't comprehend . I was like , why are you giving me a curfew

21:18

?

21:18

Right , I'm a whole-ass adult . Absolutely , absolutely

21:20

, for a long time now .

21:22

Yeah , wow . And

21:24

so I had to get acclimated to this

21:27

culture . And I also , you

21:29

know , I was in school with people

21:31

whose families had gone to

21:34

college or who , you

21:36

know , came from generationally

21:38

affluent communities , and

21:41

so that was also a change

21:43

in the way that I had to comport

21:46

myself , and I struggled

21:48

quite a bit . You know

21:50

, I was a young kid who

21:53

thought that he knew everything from New York

21:55

. So , you know , I thought I was the coolest thing

21:57

. On a block Right , I used to wear

21:59

my bandana , to the left and I had gold

22:01

fronts . Wow . I'd wear

22:03

, you know , I'd wear my flags to class

22:06

pants , sagging my Tim's unlaced , and

22:08

I would just be in class like what ? And

22:14

that was a very challenging time .

22:16

In retrospect , do you feel like that structure

22:19

of like the curfew and having

22:21

a routine that you have to wake up , go to class , all

22:23

that In retrospect do you feel like that was helpful ?

22:25

I'm not there .

22:26

Okay , I'm not there .

22:28

So I found a way to bypass the curfew

22:32

, as many young people tried . So

22:34

what I didn't mention was that in Queens

22:36

I grew up also influenced by

22:38

breakdancers , and so

22:41

, you know , I , you know , growing

22:43

up in hip hop culture , being a graffiti

22:45

artist , being around

22:47

people who were breakdancing

22:49

or rapping or trying to get into the music industry

22:52

, you know this was very much a part of my culture

22:54

. And so I had met , you know

22:56

, a former breakdancer who had created his own

22:58

production company and was

23:01

hiring dancers

23:03

to do bar and bat mitzvahs

23:05

, weddings , parties , events . And

23:08

so I traveled up and down the East Coast

23:10

you know doing , you know , breakdancing

23:12

or dancing at weddings , bar and bat

23:14

mitzvahs , club events , other

23:17

events on weekends , and

23:20

I had my then boss write

23:22

a letter stating that , you know

23:24

, part of my job is to be out past

23:27

11 o'clock and that I needed , I

23:29

needed some space . Well played , well played . Very

23:32

much . Yeah , you know

23:34

, I struggled while I was there

23:37

to find my footing . I

23:39

thought that college wasn't for me

23:41

, that it was this like thing that white people do

23:43

and this thing . That just wasn't

23:46

. You know , just wasn't something that I was

23:48

meant to do . So I

23:50

decided that I wanted to go off to the military

23:52

. That's a whole other journey that

23:55

can be very climactic . I think first

23:57

semester of my sophomore year , maybe second

23:59

semester of my sophomore year , I

24:01

go back to New York and meanwhile my parents are

24:04

here in DC , in the DC area , so

24:07

I'm bouncing around from house to house

24:10

, friends to friends , house to friends house

24:12

Unfortunately girlfriend's

24:14

house to girlfriend's house

24:16

at the time . There's

24:18

room for growth and evolution , absolutely .

24:20

Absolutely , absolutely . We

24:23

are who we are because we went through what we went through .

24:25

That's right , and me and my best

24:27

friend had a plan to

24:29

go off to the Navy under

24:32

a buddy system . So we go through the military

24:34

entrance program , the MEPPS program

24:36

, we study for our ASVABs , we

24:39

take our tests , we get our placements . This

24:42

is , you know , over the course of like three or four

24:44

months , and the

24:46

night before we are to deploy

24:49

, a couple of our friends host a little

24:51

party , a little going away party for us . So

24:53

you know , it's the crew

24:56

and cats from the neighborhood

24:58

. And I

25:00

see I'm talking to one of

25:02

the younger brothers of

25:05

an old friend that was

25:08

brutally beaten by the police and

25:10

he was telling me that he was thinking about

25:13

going to college . He had just graduated high school

25:15

. He asked me how college was and I

25:17

was like man , get out of New York . Like just

25:19

get out of New York or even just get out

25:21

of the city , right , like go upstate or

25:24

go to Connecticut or go to New Jersey , but like

25:26

get out of New York , you have to experience

25:28

this and you have to do that and

25:30

this and this and dorm life . And

25:32

you know , I'm talking about all of these experiences

25:35

that I had kind of processing all

25:37

of this at the same time , because I don't think

25:39

that in that moment I had processed

25:42

all of my experiences . And

25:45

in that moment a light

25:47

bulb turns on and

25:49

I realized

25:51

and recognized that I don't want to go to the Navy , I want to

25:53

go back to college . And

25:56

that was a bittersweet moment because

25:59

me and my best friend just

26:01

finished going through this process and

26:03

me and my best friend had been planning this for months

26:05

and my best friend was really looking

26:08

forward to , you

26:10

know , to us doing this , doing this journey together

26:12

, right , and that was really difficult

26:14

.

26:15

Can't do the buddy system without your buddy , you know , doesn't

26:17

quite work .

26:18

That was really difficult .

26:19

Okay , so

26:22

what did that mean ? So he was supposed

26:24

to deploy the next day or

26:26

enroll the next day , or like

26:29

what happens between that conversation

26:31

and you now going

26:33

on this process of figuring out kind

26:35

of , what is next for you and how do you approach

26:37

your buddy on that .

26:38

Yeah . So

26:41

that night , you know , I'm

26:43

like yo , I don't think , I don't think I want

26:45

to go anymore , right , like

26:47

I don't think I want to do this anymore . He's like what , what

26:50

you mean ? Like we just , we went through this process

26:52

, we did this thing . We like we were supposed to do

26:54

this . You're my dog , I'm like we're supposed

26:57

to , you know , do this together . And

27:00

we ended up having to

27:02

talk to our recruiter . My recruiter

27:04

, you know , advised

27:06

me , illy advised me

27:09

, but advised me nonetheless on

27:11

what to do , and I think my

27:13

friends still Thought

27:16

that I was gonna go , mm-hmm . But

27:18

you know , here , here we were . So

27:20

the next day , we go to swearing . So the

27:22

military entrance program ends

27:25

After you swearing

27:27

, you sign your papers . You're

27:29

like , yeah , I am now

27:31

going to . You know , off

27:33

to bootcamp to do this thing

27:35

. They tell us not to bring anything

27:37

, that the government is going to provide Everything

27:40

that we need . They give us vouchers

27:42

for food at the airport

27:44

. They will give you deodorant

27:47

, socks , you know , soap

27:50

, all the things that you know one needs

27:53

to to sustain

27:55

themselves , if you will . And we

27:57

then go to a hotel in Staten

27:59

Island you know , we wait to

28:01

to go to Newark Airport in

28:04

New Jersey . And then , when

28:07

we're at the airport no

28:09

cell phone , no money

28:11

, no , you

28:14

know nothing to my name , mm-hmm

28:16

they start calling our , our

28:18

flight to board . And here we

28:21

are , everybody getting

28:23

ready to board , and I

28:25

tell my friend , now I say your piece

28:27

. And Everybody gets on

28:29

the plane and he's like

28:31

yo , like what ? What do you want me to say ? When

28:33

you're not there , when you don't

28:35

go to boot camp , supposed to go to boot

28:38

camp , it's like I don't , I don't

28:40

know , man , but I'm not , I'm not getting

28:42

on this plane . That was a really difficult

28:44

moment . How about that was

28:46

? a really difficult moment so .

28:49

Are you still friends with this person ?

28:50

We keep in touch every once in

28:52

a while .

28:53

That's fair .

28:54

And I follow up on them .

28:56

you know I keep tabs on him , he keeps

28:58

tabs on me , but um you

29:00

know , we've our paths have

29:03

taken two very different Places

29:05

and our lives are distinctly different

29:08

seems to be the case for you

29:10

, I think , as you continue

29:12

to grow and evolve and learn and get exposed to things

29:14

seems like you make

29:16

decisions that you think make

29:18

sense for you in your life , in your future , and

29:21

sometimes that includes others that you have been currently

29:23

on the journey with . Sometimes it does not yep . Ultimately

29:26

, that is kind of what leads us to this journey

29:29

, in this path where we're on now . So you

29:31

know it all makes sense at the end .

29:33

It all makes sense at some point and

29:35

I have other reflections about , you

29:38

know , my , my spirituality

29:40

, my ancestors , all

29:43

that guides me and I can share a little

29:45

bit more about that later . But

29:47

I'm In this airport

29:49

, no money , nothing to my

29:51

name , and At the

29:53

time I have this girlfriend in Maryland

29:56

who I call

29:58

after hounding you

30:00

know 20 , 30 people to let me borrow

30:02

their cell phone or

30:05

to give me some change to make a phone

30:07

call , and I asked her to get me a Greyhound

30:10

ticket back to Maryland

30:13

. This is probably April

30:15

at this point . Okay . So

30:18

I'm cold , I don't have a jacket , like

30:20

it's just , it's brick city and

30:23

Get this bus

30:26

ticket down to back , down to Maryland

30:28

. And as soon as I get home

30:30

, my parents welcome me in . They're grateful

30:33

that I didn't go to the military , but

30:35

they're also a little bit like why'd

30:38

you go through this whole process anyway ? Like you

30:40

stop going to school . You

30:42

, you know , move back up to New York . When

30:44

we were clearly here , you know , there was also

30:46

some , some resentment around their own sacrifices

30:48

, and rightfully so . Right , that's

30:51

when I decided to apply to

30:53

Morgan State University .

30:54

Why Morgan State ?

30:55

that yeah . So Morgan

30:57

, I think , felt

31:00

like the safest place

31:02

for me . It was an environment

31:04

that felt familiar . It was an environment

31:06

that felt Welcoming

31:09

. It was an environment that I

31:11

didn't feel like I had to Pretend

31:14

it , and I think the Sometimes

31:18

privilege and oftentimes

31:20

also burden of HBC use

31:23

is that they recognize

31:26

and understand the systems under which

31:28

their students

31:30

are raised under and

31:33

can empathize and

31:35

are charged with the task of

31:37

Supporting in our

31:39

growth . And I think that Morgan

31:42

, in retrospect

31:44

, was the best place for me to

31:46

be as a young person with

31:49

learning disabilities , as

31:51

a young person who had

31:54

immense potential but didn't know how to unlock

31:56

it , and as a young person who'd never

31:58

seen people of color

32:01

in Professional

32:03

settings . Yeah in the same way

32:05

that that other people have okay

32:07

.

32:07

So how old are you at this point , and what

32:09

did you actually end up majoring in

32:11

?

32:12

at this point I think I'm 20

32:15

1920 okay . Don't

32:17

like that . So mind you , you know I

32:20

, I , I transferred schools

32:22

now and I transferred

32:24

with , I think , without

32:26

a particular , without one semester Of

32:29

courses . So I had to start Sophomore

32:32

year again . Mm-hmm . Some of my credits

32:34

didn't transfer over , so it was

32:36

kind of like I was starting college all over

32:39

again , and it really

32:41

did take me four years to

32:43

To graduate right

32:45

so this is a six and a half

32:48

year journey for me . Absolutely , when

32:50

you know young , you know . I know people

32:52

now that are graduating in three

32:54

years right , or people

32:56

who you know are

32:59

in their master's Programs

33:01

while working on their bachelor's degrees

33:03

by year for right

33:05

so 21 , 22 folks are

33:07

like typically Jumping out

33:09

.

33:10

So you're at this point looking to graduate

33:12

at like 23 , 24

33:14

ish . So you're , yeah , I

33:16

get that .

33:17

Yeah , you know , I'm at Morgan

33:19

. I decided that I wanted to

33:21

work with young boys , right , like I said earlier

33:23

, mm-hmm , I become

33:25

a psychology major and

33:28

the rest of my time there

33:30

is dedicated towards obtaining this degree

33:32

. But in the interim , I'm also

33:34

being exposed to black liberation

33:37

intellect , being

33:39

exposed to a variety

33:41

of diverse experiences

33:43

. Getting a better understanding of blackness

33:46

in its diversity as well , understanding

33:49

that blackness is in a model , is Learning

33:52

what it means to be intersectional , learning

33:55

about , you know , black feminism

33:57

, and those create

34:00

the framework for

34:02

how I View the

34:04

world and the way that I think

34:06

about freedom and liberation , and

34:08

in that , if black people aren't

34:10

free , then none of us are

34:13

free , mm-hmm , if the

34:15

most marginalized

34:17

and exploited Aren't

34:19

free , then how

34:22

can any one of us be free ? Because the

34:24

same racism , the original racism

34:26

that engulfed the United States

34:28

and Took and enslaved

34:31

and kidnapped people from the African

34:33

coasts , is the

34:35

same racism that Latin

34:37

Americans face , is the same racism that

34:39

Asian Americans face . We

34:42

may not face it in the same way , but it's

34:44

the same white supremacy that

34:47

created these systems of oppression that

34:49

are At

34:51

the crux of all of our

34:53

Socialization right

34:56

sounds okay , so Were

34:58

you kind of an involved student while

35:01

you're learning all these things Like , are you joining clubs and doing

35:03

other things ? Yeah , I , um , I try

35:05

to be as involved as I could . I think a

35:07

part of me was still for the streets . You

35:10

know , along along my

35:12

my journey , you know , even

35:14

in in undergrad , I always gravitated

35:17

towards being in the hood and

35:19

so I found these little pockets and

35:21

communities that I would , that I would

35:24

explore , that I would connect with

35:26

, that felt like home . You

35:28

know , I'd be in East Baltimore or I'd go down , I'd

35:30

go to West Baltimore , I'd hang out

35:32

in different parts of the city

35:35

that weren't accessible to one

35:37

outsiders but then to Latinos

35:40

. Right , this is a predominantly black city

35:42

and you know

35:44

the Latinx community Was

35:46

still emerging and it was predominantly immigrants

35:49

from Central America , in some

35:51

Caribbean communities in a very small

35:53

section of East Baltimore , you know

35:55

, the Patterson Park area , the

35:57

Greek town area , which were , you

36:00

know , still getting a better sense

36:02

of what Latinx cultures and communities were

36:04

. Yep and so

36:06

there was a lot of cultural translating there was

36:08

. You know , there was also

36:10

me just being in community and

36:12

so I would , you know , go to , I

36:15

would go to , I would go to school during the day , and

36:18

then I would work , and then , when I wasn't working , I

36:22

was in community right , that makes sense . And

36:24

I was also struggling with with alcoholism I

36:26

hadn't processed all of this trauma that

36:28

I had gone through over

36:31

the course of the last , you

36:34

know , five , six years . Where I was

36:36

now self medicating . I

36:40

was a functional alcoholic , so sometimes I would be

36:42

in class and

36:45

these were a part of you know

36:47

my my day-to-day struggles , and

36:50

so I didn't have the foresight

36:52

to become a part of , you

36:55

know major clubs and groups . I

36:57

did join a writer's guild because

37:00

I I was a writer and I'd always written , written

37:03

poetry and

37:05

I wanted to become an alpha and

37:08

honestly , that saved me because I had to be sober

37:10

. I , you know , was mentally and

37:13

emotionally trying to prepare myself for

37:15

a process and I

37:18

had to have my grades up and

37:21

so for the next , once

37:24

I , you know , got exposure to the , you

37:27

know divine nine organizations

37:29

and

37:31

Understood their

37:33

foundations and kind of their , their philosophies on leadership

37:36

service

37:38

, those two things that

37:40

resonated with me and I , you

37:44

know , wanted to be an alpha and that meant

37:46

that I had to change the way that I was living

37:49

my life . You know , I start

37:52

going through this , this evolutionary

37:54

process that leads me to

37:57

, you know , being class more , to

37:59

, you know , not drinking

38:01

while I'm , while I'm in school , to , you

38:05

know , at the time , being more respectable and

38:07

we can talk about respectability politics , but it's done really two thousands

38:09

, and you know , we didn't have language for , you

38:13

know , respectability Politics . And in the

38:15

same way that we do now , you

38:19

know , I , I , I Accredited

38:22

a lot of my journey Into Getting

38:26

it together to wanting to be a member of this organization

38:28

. Well , uh , unfortunately , I didn't

38:30

make child support , I didn't

38:32

make chapter grades , I made National

38:35

grades but I never made chapter grades and

38:37

so I was never able to to go

38:39

through , you know , the application process

38:42

and the process in and of itself

38:44

, but , uh , it served its

38:46

purpose right it served the purpose for

38:48

me to to be able

38:50

to See myself as

38:52

somebody different than who I

38:54

was and to transform

38:57

my life , to be able to graduate

39:00

.

39:00

Wow , okay , so I

39:02

love that . So now it's senior year

39:04

. You have to graduate . You

39:06

have the grace to graduate , uh , with

39:09

a psychology major . What do you think

39:11

you're gonna do and what do you do ?

39:12

So I don't know what I'm gonna do for a while , uh

39:15

, but at this point , you know I'm I'm deeply

39:17

immersed in community , taking on

39:19

leadership roles and responsibilities

39:22

. I start working for an organization

39:24

called turnaround uh in baltimore

39:26

, which is a

39:28

domestic violence and sexual assault advocacy

39:31

organization , as a community educator , and so

39:33

I was running up and down baltimore city

39:35

training , you know

39:38

, jurors , police officers

39:40

, ras and , on college campuses

39:43

, foster care parents . I was training

39:45

uh , foster care youth on

39:48

healthy relationships and I was just Zooming

39:50

up and down the city and I think that

39:53

was the first time that I built a community

39:55

that was based on One

39:57

service for for community , as

39:59

opposed to , you know , me

40:02

just being in these streets .

40:03

Got it Okay . So you did that

40:05

and I I love that . You have that

40:07

outlook of One

40:10

. You don't have to like going back to

40:12

, to what you mentioned about trying to become an alpha like

40:14

, just because you didn't become one Doesn't mean no dinner service

40:16

purpose and it wasn't helpful to you . Right , this

40:18

role , right here Again

40:20

, it allowed you to be in community and to see yourself as someone

40:22

that is being of service and as someone that

40:24

can provide good to the world by

40:27

virtue of what you're doing . And

40:30

that has you know , I

40:32

think , while it may not have been the

40:34

role that you saw yourself in for the rest of your

40:36

life , like I think it's a great

40:38

transition point from one

40:41

path into now

40:43

the working class and like how do

40:45

I build a career from here ? So I know you did that

40:47

for , I think , about two years or so

40:50

, right .

40:50

About a year or so , okay

40:53

, and then I had to

40:55

think about what I wanted to do . Right . Like

40:57

where you know , and I think again the

40:59

theme of all oppressed people comes up

41:01

right . And thinking

41:04

about you know , the work

41:06

that I've started to do , the

41:08

things that I like to do in the work

41:10

, and also not fully understanding

41:12

systems of oppression . Right , I

41:14

think I understood it on a micro

41:16

level , right . What happens in

41:19

individual situations

41:21

, what happens when communities

41:23

are impacted and oppressed ? But I didn't

41:26

fully . I couldn't understand or articulate

41:28

what oppression was

41:30

, what systemic oppression was , and

41:33

I wanted to better understand

41:35

that . While I was

41:37

looking for universities to

41:39

apply to , I

41:41

was also organizing members

41:43

of the Latin Kings , both in the US

41:46

, latin America and

41:48

Europe , to become

41:51

more politically engaged . Wow . And

41:54

you know , a lot of my thought

41:56

process was that I wanted

41:58

to continue to do this work , and so I needed one

42:01

, a international lens , and

42:04

two , a way

42:06

to understand systems of oppression , but

42:08

three work through conflict

42:10

that happens in the context

42:12

of these organizations . So , I

42:15

naturally chose a

42:17

school that would accommodate all three of these

42:19

components , and

42:22

SIT Graduate Institute was that

42:24

institution , and SIT is

42:26

a school for international training , and

42:29

that you know . That school allowed

42:32

me the new lenses

42:34

that I needed to be able

42:36

to think about macro level systems

42:39

, and this is where I majored

42:41

in social justice and conflict resolution

42:44

. So my official

42:46

degree is a master's of

42:49

arts in intercultural

42:51

service leadership and management , and

42:54

so it was a combination of nonprofit

42:56

management and social

42:59

justice and conflict resolution

43:01

courses that created

43:04

my degree .

43:05

While you were still organizing folks and

43:07

while you were still kind of building this base

43:10

of ultimately really Latinos

43:13

becoming more politically involved

43:15

. Right , and as you said , it's just you

43:17

know you can kind of subdivide Latinos in different

43:19

ways . That is one sub of the population

43:22

, but ultimately what you're really doing is mobilizing

43:24

Latinos and Latino families to

43:27

become more politically involved

43:29

. So did you continue doing

43:32

that once you finish your master's Like

43:34

what and what ? Two things One

43:36

, did you get what you wanted out of the master's program ? And

43:39

then , two , what did that ultimately lead

43:41

you to afterwards ?

43:42

Yeah , I did , you know . So the

43:44

grad school was in Vermont , and

43:47

you know , here I go

43:49

, from a city that's predominantly

43:52

black and BIPOC

43:54

to a state where

43:56

you know it's me and like

43:58

three other Latinx folks , right Like

44:00

we make up the . Latino population of the town . Yeah

44:03

. Right and little

44:05

little old , brattleboro , vermont , 2010, . Right

44:07

, I'm now 25 . And

44:10

you know I go on my first intentional

44:12

hike right . Like I am

44:15

in the mountains , I'm near

44:17

rivers , I have access to nature . It's

44:19

the first time that I'm able to connect to the land

44:21

in a way that that was intentional . And

44:24

you know I I'd go back and forth to El Salvador

44:27

and you know I'd hike up to

44:29

get to my grandmother's house in this little

44:32

, you know , often

44:34

secluded part of the country

44:36

. But I never thought about it in a

44:38

in a way that allowed

44:40

for leisure and spirituality to ensue

44:42

, right it ? was just kind of me

44:44

as a kid , as a young person , as an adolescent

44:47

, you know , going to

44:49

my motherland

44:51

without any deeper

44:53

meaning than just that right , just experiencing

44:56

and existing .

44:57

And even the hike at El was for destination right

44:59

.

45:00

So that's so much different experience . Right

45:02

. So here you know I'm going on my

45:04

first intentional hikes . I'm . I

45:07

had my first real salad , like

45:09

and not just like lechua y tomate

45:11

, like lettuce and tomatoes , like

45:14

, like a lot of our folks say . You know

45:16

, this is a real intentional salad

45:18

kale , arugula , strawberries

45:21

, walnuts , you know , blue

45:24

cheese , like things that I

45:26

was like I don't even know what this is which

45:29

also talks to the lack of access that we

45:31

have in our communities for food .

45:33

You have to be 25 with a masters

45:35

before you started doing this . Think

45:37

about that , yeah .

45:39

Yeah , and I was also in a very

45:41

progressive state and

45:44

that also helped to shape and form my

45:46

, my politics and my , my

45:49

lenses , under which I continue

45:52

to operate right . So these are , all

45:54

of these kinds of moments lead

45:57

to the formation of what is

45:59

my , you know , my theory

46:01

of change , my lenses

46:04

for freedom and liberation , the

46:06

way that I think about community engagement

46:09

and community empowerment and

46:11

building power with community .

46:13

So you ultimately started really doing

46:15

direct political work , so not

46:17

not just off of your leisure but

46:19

like , as you're , a full time thing . Tell

46:21

me about the path to get there . Like what I

46:24

understand Vermont kind of played a role in just exposing

46:26

you to like that progressiveness and going

46:28

through that HBCU to

46:30

then getting to this master's , like a lot of things just

46:32

kind of seem to be aligning for you to , to push

46:35

you in this direction . But tell me about

46:37

how you actually got into it and and what your first

46:39

experiences were there .

46:40

So I leave grad school . It takes

46:42

me . I leave grad school at the end

46:44

of 2011 . I

46:46

stay in Vermont for an extra year as

46:49

an RA and I think this is probably

46:51

one of the most freeing times of my life , right

46:54

Like I'm literally working

46:56

in the morning and at night , and then during

46:58

the day I have nothing else to do . So I no

47:01

responsibilities , no bills , I'm just

47:03

, I'm living , I'm existing and it's

47:05

it's a very different

47:07

way of life . Then

47:10

I go off to write my master's

47:12

thesis . I come back to Maryland write my master's

47:14

thesis and finish

47:16

my master's thesis in the course

47:19

of a year . I graduate by 2012

47:23

and I start working

47:25

back in DC around

47:28

the Affordable Care Act when

47:30

it was rolled , being rolled out . So

47:32

I think this is probably 20 , yeah , 2012

47:34

, 2013 . And I'm doing community

47:36

education work and

47:38

working with families to get a better understanding

47:41

of what the new

47:43

policies are going to be and why they

47:46

are going to impact them . And

47:49

then you know Joe Arpaio

47:51

in Arizona you know , 2,500

47:55

miles away is talking

47:57

about Latino communities

47:59

and immigrants , and

48:02

Jan Bauer , then

48:04

governor of Arizona , is

48:07

signs into law SB 1070

48:09

, which allows for

48:12

police officers to stop

48:14

you without probable cause , because you look

48:16

like an undocumented person or you look

48:18

like an immigrant and ask you for your papers , wow

48:21

. And so this was a direct target

48:23

and attack on on our communities and

48:25

I felt compelled to to

48:28

act . And

48:30

my then mentor lived in Arizona

48:32

so I moved in with him while

48:34

I was also practicing santeria . I

48:37

was I was an apprentice in the practice

48:39

of santeria and learning

48:41

to be a santero . It

48:43

was also a really interesting time because

48:46

I didn't know anybody in Arizona except

48:48

for him . I didn't know the political climate

48:50

and culture . I didn't have any connections

48:53

to people in movement , and

48:55

so it was really difficult for me to kind of integrate

48:57

myself into the space . And that

48:59

was , I think , one of the , you

49:01

know , biggest reflections from that time is is

49:04

very much that sometimes communities

49:06

are protective and

49:09

you have to build trust in order for you to

49:11

come into these communities to be able

49:13

to support . Right At that time

49:15

I thought you know here , I got a master's degree

49:18

, I've been doing community work for a while

49:20

. I know what it is to mobilize and organize

49:22

people . Let me go and help . Yeah

49:24

Right , Not recognizing

49:26

my own privileges , not recognizing

49:28

, you know , that communities

49:31

, even though I'm Latino , like I'm not

49:34

, I'm not from Arizona , I'm not Mexican

49:36

, I'm not of this community

49:38

and like these communities

49:40

, are also autonomous right . They have

49:42

the power to shift

49:44

and change their own narratives , and

49:47

we're doing so right . We saw over

49:49

the next decade . We saw the immigration

49:51

rights movement become a

49:54

force to be reckoned with because of the

49:58

radicalization of young people then

50:00

in Arizona who

50:02

were living this right , absolutely

50:05

.

50:06

You know , people mobilize when they

50:08

see things that will impact

50:11

them , when they see that things are wrong and

50:13

a lot of times communities have their own solutions already

50:16

. You know and I see

50:18

that as someone who's in philanthropy is like we

50:20

can't go in and propose the solutions

50:23

. We can't go

50:25

in and think that we know all the answers because

50:27

we work in so many different spaces . A lot of

50:29

times it's just how can we support your movement

50:32

, how can we support what you're already doing , amplify

50:34

that , duplicate that

50:36

, whatever that is , in order to support

50:38

that . So I'm glad that you went in and understood

50:40

that lens right and that comes

50:42

with a lot of growth and a lot of reflection and clearly you're very

50:44

ensuing and very reflective . Thank

50:46

you , yeah . Yeah . So

50:50

it was basically a call to action that you saw and

50:52

injustice and that brings you directly

50:54

into politics to say , okay , that's wrong , we need

50:56

to do something about that . You've worked at

50:58

a couple of other organizations . You

51:01

want to talk a little bit about your work , any of those

51:03

or any notable moments

51:05

in any of those ?

51:06

Yeah , so

51:08

I think my real I don't get to do much in

51:10

Arizona . I end

51:13

up staying there for like a little under a year

51:15

and I was working as a telemarketer

51:17

for the time that

51:19

I was there and that's also where I'm . It's

51:21

how my wife and I reconnected my

51:24

now wife and I reconnected . She's

51:26

from Connecticut .

51:27

Okay , the great state of Connecticut right . The

51:30

great state of Connecticut . That's right .

51:31

Yes , the Nutmeg state , that's right , the

51:33

Constitution state . Holla Chaboy

51:36

, my

51:38

wife , is from Connecticut . She grew up in Windsor

51:40

, connecticut , and they just finished grad

51:42

school and was working as

51:44

a therapist in

51:47

Hartford and we were

51:49

talking about who was going to move where

51:51

. You know . I had bounced around the country

51:54

for so much already I was

51:56

like what's another state ? That's fair , I've

51:58

never been to Connecticut Like I might

52:00

like it up there and that was

52:02

really the catalyst

52:04

for my political engagement

52:07

work . So I worked for

52:09

an education advocacy

52:11

organization and under

52:13

that education advocacy organization is where

52:16

I cut my teeth in statewide

52:18

mobilizing and organizing lobbying

52:21

and electoral campaign

52:23

work , particularly on the independent

52:26

expenditure side , on the IE side . But

52:28

it's where I really

52:31

got a handle on . I

52:33

was able to refine my

52:35

talents in the field right and

52:38

put my talents to the test and

52:40

put theory to practice . And

52:43

you know we mobilized thousands

52:46

of parents , teachers , school

52:48

leaders . We were

52:50

able to have parents and their

52:53

state legislators meet over

52:55

the course of , you know , four legislative

52:57

sessions . You know this is hundreds

52:59

of meetings that we organized

53:02

. It was a time to be

53:04

had . It was a really great

53:06

opportunity for me to jump into

53:09

the political and

53:11

electoral organizing space . It

53:13

was a great way for me to be introduced to policy

53:16

advocacy in a very concrete

53:18

way and it

53:21

was really the jumpstart

53:23

of my career . I

53:26

got my start in Connecticut and it is

53:28

a state that I will forever

53:30

be grateful for . Some of my closest

53:32

friends , the people that are in

53:35

my circle , the

53:37

people that I hold dearest , live in Connecticut

53:39

and are very much

53:41

a dear part of my life .

53:43

I now live in Connecticut so I'm very biased towards

53:45

the state . So you know , I am glad

53:47

that you are seeing so much value in this wonderful , remarkable

53:50

state . It is Okay

53:52

. So you did that for about three years or

53:54

so and then you went off to an organization

53:56

that a lot of listeners may very well

53:58

recognize . Where'd you end up going and why

54:00

?

54:01

Yeah . So you know , 2016

54:03

happens and we are coming

54:05

off of a high of winning , you know

54:07

, I think , four out of our five

54:10

electoral campaigns and , like

54:12

yo , we did the damn thing , let's

54:14

do it . And then Donald Trump

54:16

wins the election and

54:18

we are

54:21

devastated , right Like I felt

54:23

it in my gut and I knew

54:26

that our communities were going to be in trouble , and

54:29

so I decided to take

54:31

my talents to the national stage

54:34

and support work that I thought

54:36

was going to be intersectional because

54:38

, again , for all oppressed people , two

54:40

was going to have a higher impact and

54:42

three would challenge

54:45

the ways that we

54:47

thought organizing was

54:50

. And so I went to work

54:52

for Planned Parenthood Federation of America and

54:55

in this capacity , I was the Raiz

54:57

program manager , and so I supported

54:59

, under Melissa Garcia from

55:02

Arizona's Tucson , arizona , her

55:04

leadership . I supported

55:06

, you know , a four state program

55:09

At first it was Florida , arizona

55:12

, nevada and Pennsylvania and

55:14

under her leadership we expanded

55:16

to , I think , about 20 states

55:18

and we now were

55:21

one of the largest , if not the largest

55:23

, organizing program in the United

55:25

States specific to Latinx

55:27

communities . And when

55:30

she left , I then

55:32

became the associate director

55:34

of Latinx campaigns , where I ran

55:36

our electoral and organizing

55:38

programs , supported all of

55:40

our organizers doing work

55:42

in a number of states and on state

55:45

and local initiatives , and then

55:47

helped to expand our

55:49

work into other communities

55:51

.

55:52

Well okay , and then I know you had , I

55:54

know there was a brief stint

55:57

in one more place before you got to where you are

55:59

. More actually basically too . But

56:01

you know , I mostly want to hear

56:03

mentally where you are at this point right

56:05

, because you've

56:08

one I know personally . You've come a long way from

56:10

where you started , right , and I'm very

56:12

big if you judge me

56:14

and my peers by progress , and I'm not studied by where we

56:16

are but by progress . So the starting point to where

56:18

we are now we're doing pretty freaking great

56:20

right . So , like you know , we'd

56:24

love to hear kind of mentally where you are at

56:26

that point you're now working for at that point working for

56:28

a national organization . I know you go on to do even

56:31

more and greater things since that moment

56:33

, but just generally we'd

56:35

love to hear about kind of where you are and at that

56:37

point you're rebuilding this now

56:40

, marriage , right , and

56:43

doing all the things together . Tell

56:45

me , and tell me a little bit about where you are there .

56:47

Yeah , so you know , I think

56:49

one I'm a husband , I'm

56:52

a son , I'm a brother , I'm

56:54

a son-in-law , I'm a brother-in-law , like . These

56:56

are roles that I have come to

56:58

take very seriously , and I think a

57:01

part of that has been also because of my own healing

57:03

journey . Right , one of the greatest

57:05

gifts that I received as a young

57:07

person was that

57:10

therapy was never stigmatized

57:12

for me as a child , and so I

57:14

had been in therapy since I can remember

57:16

, and it has been a natural

57:18

part of my life , and

57:20

there were moments where I wasn't in therapy

57:23

, particularly under grad

57:25

some of grad school , most of grad school

57:27

. In the moments where I felt like I absolutely

57:30

needed to be in therapy , I had

57:32

no hesitation in being like oh I'm , I'm

57:34

crazy , or therapies for those crazy people

57:36

are what are ? my peers going to think about

57:38

if they find out that I'm in therapy

57:40

, so that that was never kind of a part of

57:43

my lexicon , if you will . And

57:45

so you know , my healing journey

57:48

has really been , you

57:50

know , one in making

57:52

peace with my past , honoring

57:55

the different versions of myself and

57:58

forgiving those versions of myself

58:00

that didn't know . It is

58:02

also dreaming and imagining

58:05

today what the rest

58:07

, what you know , other phases

58:09

, that things and parts of my life could look like I

58:12

had gone from not

58:14

thinking I would be alive past the

58:16

age of 18 to

58:18

, you know , going off to

58:21

college and being like , oh wow , I did this thing . What

58:24

now ? What next ? And then

58:26

dreaming of all of the things that

58:29

I could do in this particular

58:31

scope of work . And

58:33

you know I , you know , up until this point

58:35

I've accomplished everything that I thought that I could do

58:38

. a part of my work today

58:41

is to continue

58:43

to dream to continue to

58:45

learn , to

58:47

evolve , to grow , to

58:49

be somebody else , somebody

58:52

different . Still myself

58:54

, right , but also

58:56

, in part , somebody

58:58

who is

59:00

, who's continuing

59:02

to want to be , the best version

59:05

of myself .

59:05

Got it . That makes sense to me , okay

59:08

. So I love that . And

59:10

again , you know I think you're very reflective and very entombed

59:12

. You know I

59:14

recognize you're also really good at professional development

59:17

. So we love to hear some of the programs

59:19

, fellowships , things that you've been a part

59:21

of that you think have been helpful to your career

59:24

.

59:24

Let's see . So I think

59:26

, a couple of things , starting

59:28

at the local level . There are usually

59:30

local leadership

59:32

development organizations or programs

59:35

that people can get engaged in and get involved

59:37

in . One of my favorites that I was on a board

59:39

of for my DC chapter is New

59:42

Leaders Council NLC . That

59:44

is a great organization that helps

59:46

you know people in

59:48

their mid-level career kind of level

59:50

up and also connects you to a progressive

59:53

network of people across

59:55

the United States in various

59:57

places and chapters . I would also look

1:00:00

at you know other local

1:00:02

or statewide

1:00:04

opportunities to do

1:00:06

leadership development programs and

1:00:09

you know if you're organizing . You

1:00:11

know Midwest Academy is always

1:00:13

a great training ground . What

1:00:16

was then Wellstone , now Repower , is

1:00:18

also a great training ground as

1:00:21

well and

1:00:23

ensuring that you are

1:00:26

staying abreast to all of the

1:00:28

things that are , you know , new and

1:00:30

developing in your field . The

1:00:33

other piece is from a professional

1:00:35

standpoint . You know there

1:00:37

are a couple of things that I think about . One is like

1:00:40

everything is up for negotiation , right

1:00:42

. So one , learning the art

1:00:44

of negotiation is going to be crucial

1:00:46

to your professional

1:00:48

development journey .

1:00:49

Can you give an example of that ? Because you don't get what you deserve

1:00:51

. You get what you negotiate .

1:00:53

Yeah , that's right . I'll go into it in

1:00:55

a second . To

1:00:57

the second piece is

1:01:00

that titles

1:01:02

and salaries oftentimes

1:01:05

dictate what your next jump

1:01:07

in profession is going to be . And

1:01:09

so you know if you are making

1:01:11

60K now , you're

1:01:13

likely going to make 65 or

1:01:16

70K next . It's not always

1:01:18

the case , but you know you're

1:01:21

not always making bigger leaps

1:01:23

. So I would always advise

1:01:25

to negotiate higher salaries , or

1:01:27

as high as you can go , and also

1:01:29

your titles right . If you see yourself

1:01:31

as a director in the next you

1:01:33

know five years , what

1:01:36

is it going to take for you to get there ? And

1:01:38

if you are an associate and

1:01:40

you see yourself as a director in five years

1:01:43

, then you have to do some

1:01:45

power mapping to think about how

1:01:47

your title now

1:01:49

is getting you to become a manager

1:01:51

or senior manager or

1:01:53

a deputy director or a director , because

1:01:55

there are multiple levels within

1:01:58

these confines , depending on the organization

1:02:00

to be able to loop

1:02:02

into or to be able to jump into , and

1:02:05

so if you feel like you are doing work that is

1:02:07

senior manager level

1:02:09

, but you are a manager

1:02:12

or an associate , then advocate

1:02:14

, right , negotiate . One of the

1:02:16

things that I have tried to

1:02:18

make a common practice of

1:02:20

is negotiating my time off

1:02:22

, particularly because

1:02:26

of the work that I do and folks

1:02:28

who do , you know community work

1:02:30

, who do hard work , who do work

1:02:32

that you know impacts

1:02:35

the mind and the body can

1:02:37

be grueling , and so what

1:02:39

I do is that I

1:02:42

promise to work as hard as I

1:02:44

can from January

1:02:46

to November and I will bust

1:02:48

ass to do what I need to do for

1:02:50

the freedom and liberation of my people , of all oppressed

1:02:53

people , and I

1:02:55

need a month off . And I

1:02:57

need a month off to recover , to

1:02:59

rejuvenate , to rest

1:03:02

, to realign myself

1:03:04

, to strategize , to reflect

1:03:06

. I need the time to be

1:03:09

in community , to be with family , and

1:03:11

all of that is important to the work

1:03:13

because it's a part of the work

1:03:15

that we're doing to be a

1:03:18

better society . Like I cannot

1:03:20

be effective if

1:03:22

I am burnt out , and , in fact

1:03:24

, when I'm burnt out , I'm probably

1:03:26

raggedy and

1:03:30

all of my coping skills go

1:03:32

out the door and

1:03:35

all of the things that I manage

1:03:37

and navigate start to come in

1:03:39

and so rest . I

1:03:41

think is really important . Reflection is really

1:03:43

important . Having time

1:03:45

to think and

1:03:47

imagineer and dream of

1:03:50

what your role is and what it could be and what

1:03:52

else you could be doing , I think is going to be extremely

1:03:54

important as well .

1:03:55

I love that I've negotiated titles

1:03:57

, pay for sure . But

1:03:59

I've never negotiated time off

1:04:01

that way and I just think it's important because

1:04:04

we don't know

1:04:06

what we don't know and a lot of us just accept the

1:04:08

offer because we're happy to get the offer . But by

1:04:10

the time we get to an offer they're probably really excited to get you

1:04:12

. They're not trying to start a process all over . So

1:04:15

at that point , ask for what you want . If they cannot

1:04:17

meet that like . I've gotten folks that meet me halfway

1:04:19

. Sometimes they're like I can't give you that salary but I'll give you something

1:04:21

to make you feel a little better . But

1:04:24

yeah , I mean that five , even

1:04:27

10 extra K I've been able to . You know what I mean . Whatever

1:04:29

you're able to negotiate , you aren't going to get it if you didn't ask . So

1:04:32

you might as well go for it . So I appreciate

1:04:34

that and all of that . I know

1:04:36

you were also a Spanish and

1:04:38

Philanthropy fellow and I know

1:04:40

that because you nominated me for the thing . So

1:04:43

I know I am fulfilling my application

1:04:45

, so I can hopefully be part of that great

1:04:47

legacy , of course , as well .

1:04:49

Yeah , you know , I think building

1:04:51

out your network , your network , is really

1:04:53

important . Through these

1:04:55

fellowships you have access to new

1:04:57

networks and new people . You were not met

1:04:59

because of my

1:05:01

fellowship and that also opens other doors

1:05:04

and opportunities . So because of a

1:05:06

, you know , I was an

1:05:08

Aspen Ideas Festival fellow

1:05:10

this year and was able to go to Aspen

1:05:12

last year . I

1:05:15

was in Hispanic and Philanthropy

1:05:17

and they supported

1:05:19

some of the initiatives and work that we were doing

1:05:21

and fiscally sponsored

1:05:23

some of that work . We

1:05:26

, you know I was

1:05:28

able to do new leaders council and

1:05:30

became a board member and

1:05:33

actively became a mentor to young

1:05:35

leaders . And I have a network

1:05:37

of people in Washington

1:05:40

DC that I love and care for

1:05:42

, that are part of my community and

1:05:44

you know those are all priceless

1:05:46

.

1:05:47

Got it Okay . You know

1:05:49

, as we talked about I know we just mentioned negotiating and all that . I think

1:05:51

it's important to talk about salary Things

1:05:53

, important for people to recognize that you can do really good

1:05:55

mission , aligned work , like you're doing , and

1:05:57

get compensated for it . And

1:05:59

even , as you mentioned , negotiating , right

1:06:01

, like you travel a lot for work

1:06:03

too and like you move around a lot . So like having that

1:06:06

month off it's not just for I

1:06:08

want to hang out , it's like literally I've been busting

1:06:11

my asshole over the country . I need to just sit

1:06:13

down sometimes . And sometimes your work involves

1:06:15

if there is an unfortunate tragedy , like being

1:06:17

out and about because of that tragedy at

1:06:19

the job of an item , right . So

1:06:21

you know , I love that you mentioned that negotiation , but we'd love to also

1:06:23

talk about salary .

1:06:25

I think this is in line with

1:06:27

the trajectory of my life , in

1:06:29

that I have always wanted to do

1:06:31

purpose driven work and have never thought

1:06:33

about money and finances

1:06:36

being a

1:06:38

part of the equation , and there's always internally

1:06:41

something for me that said

1:06:43

I have enough and

1:06:46

I , if I do what I love , then

1:06:49

the universe is going to reward me .

1:06:51

That is such a son of an immigrant mentality

1:06:54

.

1:06:56

It is very different than

1:06:58

you know . You

1:07:01

know , even in my own circumstances

1:07:03

, growing up in low

1:07:05

socioeconomic status or , you

1:07:08

know , being food insecure

1:07:10

or living in food deserts . You

1:07:14

know , for me I

1:07:16

tried . I don't know if this was

1:07:18

intentional , I don't think it was intentional at all

1:07:20

but I always had kind of a framework

1:07:22

of abundance . I

1:07:24

always knew how to work and I always knew how to hustle . So

1:07:27

for me it was like if I don't , if I

1:07:29

, you know get fired , if I lose

1:07:31

my job , if I don't get a job like I know how to cut

1:07:33

hair , I'm a graffiti artist , I

1:07:35

know . You know , I know how to do this

1:07:38

, this and this , I , I'm always

1:07:40

going to be in a position

1:07:42

where I can do something else

1:07:45

, and I think that that's something that's really important too . It's

1:07:47

like what are backups , what

1:07:50

are other supplementary

1:07:52

, supplementary incomes that

1:07:54

you can generate , or

1:07:56

how do you utilize your talents and monetize

1:07:59

those talents so that you don't have

1:08:01

to feel like you're tied

1:08:04

into a particular place in space

1:08:06

? And I

1:08:08

never imagined that

1:08:10

my kind of work , one

1:08:12

I never thought that my kind of work was possible

1:08:14

or was even a field right

1:08:17

, that I could make money doing what I

1:08:19

loved organizing communities , being

1:08:21

an advocate , running

1:08:23

you know program , but two

1:08:26

, I didn't think that

1:08:28

I could make a decent

1:08:30

living or live

1:08:32

a comfortable life in

1:08:35

the kind of work that I do , and so I

1:08:37

make over $150,000

1:08:40

a year and that

1:08:42

is a part of you know . The way

1:08:44

that I think about that allows

1:08:47

me some of the flexibility and comfort that

1:08:50

I'm able to take advantage of .

1:08:52

I'm very big on . You know you can do

1:08:54

good and do well at the same time , and I think

1:08:56

that it's really important because I think I

1:08:58

was fortunate enough to see someone in philanthropy when I was

1:09:00

16 . But I know a lot of my peers did not

1:09:02

see something that clicked for them

1:09:05

at that age and

1:09:07

especially because , coming from our

1:09:09

socioeconomic backgrounds , it has to make sense and it

1:09:11

has to make dollars and at that point you're like okay , but can

1:09:13

I make money doing that ? Right ? Like

1:09:16

, because if not , I might as well just do the same thing my parents are doing

1:09:18

and will be right , right . And

1:09:20

you know I love that and I appreciate you being

1:09:22

willing to share that . I know

1:09:24

you spoke a little bit about the Alchemist

1:09:27

. We'd love to hear if there are any other

1:09:29

forms of media books , podcasts

1:09:32

, things that you read or have read that have influenced

1:09:34

you personally or professionally .

1:09:36

Currently one

1:09:38

of my favorite podcasts . Well , a couple of my

1:09:40

favorite podcasts are La Brega

1:09:43

. La Brega through Future

1:09:45

Media is a

1:09:48

podcast about Puerto

1:09:50

Rico . My wife is Puerto Rican

1:09:52

and we spent about

1:09:55

two years on the island and

1:09:58

I got to know its

1:10:00

people intimately and I think

1:10:02

that that podcast

1:10:05

provides context that

1:10:07

allows me to appreciate Puerto

1:10:10

Rico , its people , its status , even

1:10:12

deeper and it gives me , it makes

1:10:15

me feel connected to its

1:10:17

people and the island even more . Another

1:10:20

podcast is

1:10:23

Native , this Land , this

1:10:26

Land , by Crooked Media , and

1:10:29

that is a podcast that illustrated

1:10:32

Indigenous law as

1:10:34

it was going through a SCOTUS

1:10:37

review . So , it

1:10:40

gave me perspective

1:10:42

on the history of Indigenous

1:10:45

people of this land and

1:10:48

its relationship to

1:10:50

the United States government , and

1:10:52

also the stories that come with these

1:10:55

communities and these tribal nations

1:10:57

right , these political entities that

1:11:00

are struggling for either a

1:11:02

recognition or resources or

1:11:04

justice , right . So

1:11:06

those two podcasts , I think , are two of my

1:11:09

absolute favorites and I'll play them

1:11:11

like . I'll come back to them

1:11:13

every once in a while because they're just

1:11:15

that good , Awesome . Bombay

1:11:18

Estereo . Their latest album

1:11:20

they had a couple of EPs

1:11:23

Aire , Tierra , Fuego

1:11:26

and another element

1:11:28

and , on a spiritual

1:11:30

level , that combination

1:11:32

of , or that collection of , music

1:11:35

, I think , was something that was very

1:11:37

heartfelt for me and helped

1:11:39

me to also reclaim

1:11:42

my relationship with the

1:11:45

land and the

1:11:47

elements in a way that I just wasn't expecting

1:11:49

and I didn't realize that

1:11:51

I needed . Wow . You know , I think

1:11:53

there's a book by Ernesto Quiñones

1:11:56

, changos Fire . It was the first time

1:11:58

I read a book

1:12:00

about an urban Latino

1:12:03

community in New York City this

1:12:05

was , I believe , in Spanish Harlem

1:12:07

but its characters were people that I

1:12:09

felt like I knew and

1:12:12

people that could have very well been my own

1:12:14

neighbors , and it was the first time I somewhat saw

1:12:16

myself in a book . It was

1:12:18

the first time I saw myself in a book up until

1:12:20

this book by

1:12:23

Javier Samarra Solito

1:12:25

, and this is a book about his

1:12:28

migration to the United States

1:12:30

and his story as

1:12:32

a Salvadorian child

1:12:34

, and it was the first time that

1:12:37

I could hear and feel

1:12:39

El Salvador on a page

1:12:41

. It was the first time that

1:12:44

the way that we speak Spanish

1:12:46

, or caliche is

1:12:49

what it's called is

1:12:51

on a book and in letters , and

1:12:54

it was an experience for

1:12:56

me that just cracked me

1:12:59

wide open . It

1:13:01

was a book that was healing . It

1:13:04

provided perspective on the immigrant

1:13:06

experience , one of which that I

1:13:08

didn't have . It helped me to contextualize

1:13:11

my own parents' journey to

1:13:13

the United States as well , and

1:13:15

that book was absolutely

1:13:18

powerful , and I mean I can go

1:13:20

on and on .

1:13:20

No , that's great . I think that's a great list . I

1:13:22

love that , thank you , and I . You know it gets people

1:13:24

different forms of media right . You get some albums

1:13:26

, you get some podcasts and you get some books

1:13:29

. I appreciate that . What's your favorite part of you , john

1:13:31

?

1:13:32

Built the community . You

1:13:34

know , when I came into the gun violence

1:13:36

prevention space I was asking where

1:13:38

you know Latinx gun violence

1:13:41

prevention leaders , organizations

1:13:44

were , and by and large you

1:13:46

know people didn't have answers

1:13:48

or people said that they didn't exist

1:13:50

. And as I traveled the country

1:13:53

, as I ran some of our listening tours

1:13:55

and as I you

1:13:57

know , related communities that I

1:13:59

already knew were were filled

1:14:01

with Latinx folks and

1:14:03

also had been burdened

1:14:05

by gun violence . I was

1:14:08

able to build a community of you

1:14:10

know Latinx leaders , organizers

1:14:13

, executive directors

1:14:15

, street intervention workers and

1:14:18

advocates that I

1:14:20

am grateful to be in this fight with , I'm grateful

1:14:22

to be building with , I'm

1:14:24

grateful to support , and I think that that's

1:14:26

the best part of my job is like being able

1:14:29

to work with such

1:14:31

amazing people who are

1:14:33

about that life , like they're about it , about it

1:14:35

. Like they want to see an end to

1:14:38

this hard because our communities

1:14:40

have been impacted by gun violence for generations

1:14:42

. Absolutely . And yet our voices

1:14:44

are only now being heard

1:14:46

, and so being a conduit

1:14:49

and being a servant to

1:14:51

my community , I think , is the best

1:14:53

part .

1:14:53

I love it . Is there anything else we haven't discussed

1:14:56

that the world should know about ? Jose ?

1:14:58

I love pizza . Pizza is my favorite thing

1:15:00

in the world .

1:15:00

I have witnessed this . This is a fact .

1:15:04

I absolutely love pizza . I would be remissed

1:15:06

if I did not talk about how much I love

1:15:09

pizza , and it would be very

1:15:11

unbranded of me to not mention

1:15:13

that I love pepperoni pizza

1:15:16

with extra cheese , and

1:15:18

it is one of my heart's purest

1:15:21

joys . I become the biggest kid when

1:15:23

I eat pizza and I could eat

1:15:25

pizza for the rest of my life , and I've had the privilege

1:15:27

, because I've traveled so much , to

1:15:29

eat pizza in every state that I've

1:15:31

been in In over

1:15:33

39 states . Now . I

1:15:36

just eat pizza everywhere , everywhere I go , and

1:15:39

I don't have an argument for

1:15:41

who has the best pizza and the worst pizza . I

1:15:43

think all pizza , relative to

1:15:46

its environment and its circumstances

1:15:48

, is good pizza to somebody , but

1:15:50

I do have pizza that I'll

1:15:53

remember forever and always , and

1:15:55

those are some of the things that I cling to

1:15:57

.

1:15:57

I love that . I appreciate that . Well , thanks for

1:15:59

joining us today . This is great .

1:16:02

Man . Thank you , it's been a privilege , it's an honor

1:16:04

. I appreciate the space to

1:16:07

be vulnerable . I hope this doesn't come back

1:16:09

to by me in the house .

1:16:10

You be alright . That's great , but

1:16:12

I'm grateful Thank you . I

1:16:18

hope you enjoyed this episode . If you did and

1:16:20

believe on the mission we're on , please like , rate

1:16:22

and subscribe to this podcast on whatever platform

1:16:24

you're using , and share this podcast with your

1:16:26

friends and your networks . Make sure you follow

1:16:28

us on Instagram and LinkedIn at

1:16:30

career cheat code and tell us people

1:16:33

or careers you would like to see highlighted . See

1:16:35

you next week with some more cheat codes . Peace

1:16:37

.