1:24

My guest today is Megan Anderson . Having lived a

1:26

zero-proof lifestyle since 2020

1:28

, Meagen has a passion for elevating the category

1:30

of alcohol-free and non-alcoholic known

1:32

today here as AFNA , and reducing stigmas

1:35

associated with the production , sales , marketing

1:37

and service of adult beverages . Megan

1:39

holds an MBA in sustainable business from

1:41

Maharishi International University in Fairfield

1:44

, iowa , in combination with consciousness consulting

1:46

training with the esteemed Dr Tony Nader

1:48

, and is a 20-year consumer packaged goods

1:51

industry veteran , with a commercial portfolio

1:53

that includes National Beer Education role

1:55

with the Boston Beer Company , where we met , as well

1:57

as global hop sales management roles

1:59

with CalSec and NZ Hops Limited

2:02

from New Zealand . She also founded Transcending

2:04

Trauma in 2022 , a program created

2:07

to support survivors and supporters

2:09

of the hashtag MeToo movement by offering

2:11

transcendental meditation , training and consciousness

2:13

programs to breweries and individuals . Outside of

2:15

a love for training and education , megan has consulted

2:18

for breweries , hemp and cannabis beverage producers

2:21

and commercial hop startups . Meagen is

2:23

also a certified Cicerone , a certified BJ

2:25

CP judge , and has completed over 140

2:28

hours of in-person beer sensory

2:30

training with the esteemed Dr Bill Simpson

2:32

. Megan Anderson welcome to Carney

2:34

Saves the World .

2:35

Awesome . Thank you , scott , it's so

2:37

good to see you . This is amazing . I

2:39

just realized I don't have an NA

2:41

beer in my hand and I have one in the fridge

2:44

. Can I take my computer with me to

2:46

go get it , or should I run and get it and come

2:48

back ? Okay , I hope you have something

2:50

to drink too . If not , you should grab something

2:53

.

2:53

I don't have an NA or regular

2:55

A beverage , but

2:58

I'll drink a Diet Pepsi . How's that All right

3:01

? Should have planned better .

3:03

I should have stocked

3:06

my fridge I even have some nice

3:08

glassware .

3:09

Excellent .

3:10

For my AF sampling . So

3:12

I have a full thing and I'm going

3:14

to open an Italian-style

3:17

pills .

3:18

Oh nice .

3:19

Which is from Untitled Art

3:21

Brewing and they're out of Wisconsin

3:24

.

3:24

Oh great .

3:25

And they're using a vacuum

3:27

distillation removal . So

3:29

they're just brewing full-strength beers

3:31

and then they're using vacuum to

3:33

get out the alcohol .

3:35

Oh really .

3:36

But it allows you to condense the other flavors and

3:38

then you can kind of build really really nice beers

3:40

this way and you can actually get to a true

3:42

0.0 . This one is not , this is a 0.5

3:45

. And it's just such a good beer . Like

3:47

if I gave this to you , you would

3:49

probably not know that there was alcohol in it . Like

3:51

it's such a great product . I actually just went to their brewery

3:54

and checked it out recently . It was so cool .

3:56

There's so many options out there nowadays , it's just great

3:58

. The category is just growing massively

4:00

.

4:00

Yeah , I love it . I think it's just

4:03

such a fun category and you just get

4:05

used to the new flavor profile without

4:07

alcohol in it . Like it does take some time to

4:09

get used to that , I think , but once you do

4:11

I'm like my life's awesome now , like

4:13

I feel good all the time . And

4:15

for me , I just took the technical approach right

4:18

. Like I went and learned the sensory , the primary

4:20

sensory . I'm still learning . I mean , we're

4:22

still doing research to find out the

4:24

sensory profiles of these types of beverages

4:27

, what's good and what's not , because , like no one's

4:29

really studied it before . So I'm

4:31

like very interested in that . And like man

4:33

, they have a team at Araxa . You know

4:35

who does like the sensory compound training

4:37

. You know what I mean . Like you did all those little

4:39

capsules or whatever . So the guy who invented

4:42

those , Dr Bill Simpson , has

4:45

like been a great mentor and friend to me and he's

4:47

like personally taught me a lot and I've

4:49

gotten to hang out with him on several occasions

4:51

and he's brilliant and so good .

4:53

So for anybody listening who's not familiar , basically

4:55

all these little capsules are extremely

4:58

potent versions of aromas

5:00

and flavors that you may get in beer and

5:03

it kind of shocks it into your memory so that

5:05

you can pick that up . And there's

5:07

some brutal ones .

5:09

Yes , yes , exactly , just

5:11

this has just been a really fun , just been

5:13

a really fun time .

5:14

So Megan and I worked together when she was in sales

5:17

at Boston Beer Company and then you moved into

5:19

a national trainer role and became

5:21

one of the trainers for our entire sales force

5:23

. And then you took a different step

5:25

and you left Boston Beer and you

5:28

created a consulting program .

5:29

I did .

5:30

But you hopped forward .

5:31

Yes , that's correct In 2016

5:33

.

5:34

And you were using some of that training that you'd

5:36

learned at Boston Beer and kind of bring other

5:38

companies out .

5:39

Yeah , yeah , a combination of sales training

5:41

I'd had from a couple

5:43

of companies , but Boston Beer was one of

5:45

them . I also worked for Altria

5:48

right out of college , so

5:51

they own a tobacco company . So I worked for Philip

5:53

Morris USA and they gave us a lot of training . They

5:55

owned SAB Miller at the time . I

5:57

had a lot of sales training pretty early

5:59

on and I think Boston Beer made that more specialized

6:02

. They taught me the value

6:04

of investing in just really

6:06

good frameworks and go-to

6:09

methods for , let's say , negotiation

6:11

or a specific selling process

6:13

, like when I got to that level of detail

6:15

and understanding of how to actually execute

6:18

things . Well then you can be a good consultant

6:20

because you can build strategies

6:22

based on the fact that if you give someone a framework

6:25

, then they have something repeatable and you

6:27

can measure it and then

6:29

you have information and when you have information you can

6:31

make a better decision . So I use that kind

6:33

of methodology , I guess , to sort of scale

6:35

small startups . That's sort

6:37

of where I went after I left Boston Beer . I was

6:39

like , oh , that's cool . I probably underestimated

6:42

really early on the

6:44

value of that . And Hopford was more

6:46

like me , just like going in and doing

6:48

projects and companies , kind of making

6:51

up my own framework or finding really easy

6:53

opportunities . Like I consulted for

6:55

a small brewery and

6:57

they wanted to expand their draft programs

6:59

. The first thing I taught them was how to clean lines

7:02

. I was like if you want your beer to taste

7:04

good and you want to increase

7:06

your sales , you need to manage

7:08

your own draft lines in this area

7:10

and if you do that , you're

7:12

going to be better able to spot opportunity . Because

7:14

I just knew they'd be touching the product more and be like more

7:17

and they did that in that function of the business

7:19

crew and they had a really strong taproom business . They

7:21

were very , very good architects and

7:23

had a beautiful space and a lot of loyal

7:25

friends , I think , in the area and built

7:28

a really kind of desirable business

7:30

model based on that . And

7:34

yeah , I think I was able to take what we learned

7:36

there and , in many ways , just sort

7:38

of work it out myself and then

7:40

hop forward . Now , I think , is more

7:43

successful because I've had more

7:45

training . Of course , I went and got my MBA and it helps

7:47

to have to know how to run a company and what

7:49

the different functions are and I didn't

7:51

really know those things . But Boston Beer gave me

7:53

the frameworks and I realized that those

7:55

have a lot of value in them . You don't have to copy

7:58

them , but you think like that . So I've

8:00

been able to make creative versions

8:02

of the names of stuff we had at Boston

8:04

Beer . But for the cannabis

8:07

industry I named part of their

8:09

merchandising strategy buds be

8:11

buds with the bartenders and the budtenders

8:14

. And things like that that were just creative

8:16

and fun and make it a way that people

8:19

could remember it , and then we can deploy it

8:21

and we can use it to grow businesses .

8:23

The acronyms were always helpful . That's what they're called

8:25

right Acronyms .

8:26

Acronyms yes , we had a lot of them .

8:28

Yes , god , many of you remember every

8:30

single one of them .

8:31

Being truckers , saying all the acronyms

8:33

were like hey , where's your prime ? Get on

8:35

the execution . So

8:38

when did you get your MBA ? So I did all

8:40

that in the background , actually , after I got

8:42

my MBA , when I stopped drinking alcohol

8:44

, because I found out that when

8:46

I wasn't thinking about

8:48

drinking , planning to drink

8:51

, talking about drinking , drinking

8:53

and then recovering from drinking , I

8:55

had a lot of time on my hands . So

8:58

I consumed a lot of my time and then I just started

9:00

feeling like I needed it , if I

9:02

needed to get to the next level , because what I realized

9:05

during that period was a lot of people

9:07

told me you don't need your MBA , like you

9:10

have a good personality , basically , and

9:12

I kind of feel like , in a way , that was people limiting

9:14

me . These were mentors of mine , I

9:16

think . In a way , I'm just a theory-based

9:19

person , but I'm also a natural sales

9:21

person , can influence and

9:23

I like connecting with people . So

9:25

I think I missed those opportunities

9:27

to advocate for myself and say

9:29

I wanted it . So I did it after then , which I

9:32

started in 2021 . And

9:34

I just graduated in June .

9:35

Awesome Congratulations .

9:36

And the focus of that MBA was through

9:38

a very unique lens of sustainability

9:41

, focused on starting with human development

9:43

. So I also learned my

9:45

MBA through the lens of making

9:47

organizations and people more conscious

9:49

and that really , I think

9:52

, in terms of my own development , was

9:54

the most valuable part of my education there

9:56

.

9:57

Yeah , I'm so interested in the consciousness aspect

9:59

of it . When and why did you make

10:01

the decision to stop drinking ? I

10:03

read somewhere that you said you did a 1,000

10:05

day cleanse . Was that

10:07

specific ? Or did you just go all of a sudden , wake up

10:09

one day after quitting and be like , oh shit

10:11

, it's 968 days ?

10:13

No , no . Yeah , it was very

10:15

intentional and it was starting at

10:17

day one and accumulating

10:20

days and then being like , oh

10:23

, making it a little further than I'd ever made

10:25

it before , and feeling

10:28

a lot of freedom in that . But there's a caveat

10:30

to that I have to . Let me just say this . I

10:33

did a program called One Year , no Beer

10:35

. I like to give credit to the products

10:37

that helped me . I think

10:39

they taught me that their curriculum

10:42

was very easy for someone like me and

10:44

it came with a community . You've gotten a private

10:47

Facebook community and I

10:49

was so moved by the transformations

10:51

there . I started to become hyper

10:54

aware of the transformation aspect

10:56

in this . And then , because

10:58

of the university I was going in and I was

11:00

meditating using this meditation

11:03

technique . It's a technology of consciousness

11:05

, so I was actually doing that

11:07

. And then I hired a PhD in

11:09

the Enneagram to study my

11:11

ego structure and stuff and just

11:13

like , once I got a wrap on those things , I

11:16

was able to put it all together

11:18

and so it was a combination of some

11:20

of the tools . I think I had learned to

11:22

be

11:40

more aware and to develop

11:42

sort of some more resilience . I

11:45

needed some resilience . I think everybody

11:47

has trauma , but I think I just had to figure

11:50

out my real problems , which is why was

11:52

I drinking more than I really wanted to

11:54

and why did I feel like once I

11:56

started I couldn't stop when I wanted

11:58

to ? And that's actually alcohol

12:00

use disorder . It's just like I lacked

12:03

sort of that internal limiter of

12:05

how much was good

12:07

and healthy and OK and then

12:09

what wasn't . And it was just like and

12:11

I look at my family history , I mean my

12:13

grandfather died of alcoholism in

12:16

a very horrible , horrific way and

12:18

so I think , knowing that

12:20

I was just kind of like and I had a lot of alcoholism

12:23

that was in my family , that just wasn't talked

12:25

about and I think it was just normalized

12:27

. I'd love to hear your version of that because

12:29

I think we all have that story . Alcohol

12:32

after prohibition , it really became

12:34

a big part of our society again and

12:37

I think just that normalized

12:39

it . 10 beers was OK , because it

12:41

was just beer , but at the same time , like

12:43

if a person's becoming drunk and then they're

12:45

doing that really regularly

12:48

, it was obviously , as people

12:50

got older you could tell it hadn't been good to their

12:52

health or their relationships

12:54

. And then I found myself just kind

12:56

of playing that out and I started

12:58

to wonder is this it Like

13:01

? Is this how it's going to be ? You know

13:03

?

13:04

You know it's funny . So my father was

13:06

a pretty aggressive alcoholic . He

13:08

was in and out of our lives . He passed away when I was 24

13:11

. But when he was around

13:13

he would have one drink at night and then two

13:15

drinks and by 10 o'clock it was four

13:17

or five . He wasn't rowdy but all of a sudden

13:19

he would just pass out and he was like dad's

13:22

done for the night and you'd wake

13:24

up in the morning to go to school and he'd still be there

13:26

and you're like , oh , this is a problem . So

13:28

when I got the job at Boston Beer Company right

13:31

out of college , my mother was not

13:33

happy . It was like wait a minute , you

13:35

know , we got something into family . Let's just keep an eye

13:37

on it . You know , and you

13:39

tend to get out of control once in a while when

13:41

you work for a beer company . So there

13:43

were days where you were like that was a little aggressive

13:45

. But as you get older , obviously if

13:47

you're not dealing with a problem you can taper

13:50

it off and slow it down . And the last couple

13:52

of years we'd take two , three months off just to see

13:54

. But this past year if I did three months

13:56

, you know it's nothing compared to what other people

13:58

do what you've done , but you know it's a step

14:00

in the right direction and you know , ultimately it's where

14:03

I know I've got to go .

14:04

What was the result for you Like ? What did

14:06

you experience ?

14:08

Oh , massive loss of weight . Wow

14:11

, massive loss of weight . I also

14:13

was working out , and then I was doing some keto

14:15

, and when I drink , I'll tend to

14:17

eat something nice and unnecessary . You

14:20

know , as I was drinking , I was also gaining weight . That way

14:22

Felt better in the mornings though . Wow

14:24

cool , my digestive system was

14:27

better . It was all around a good thing . So

14:30

I'm actually thinking about hanging her up running New

14:32

Year's this year , for we'll start with .

14:34

Well , I mean , I think the good thing is if

14:37

you know you can do three months and like

14:39

you , that's like actually like

14:41

a lot of willpower , like at first , but

14:43

I think knowing you can do that , mix

14:45

it up for three months , I mean I can definitely

14:47

advise you on some ways to be like let's

14:49

develop a drinking program together

14:51

where it's like , it's kind of like I choose

14:53

AF on these days and I choose drink

14:56

. You know , I mean you can kind of like it's a way to

14:58

like taper . I think for people that have

15:00

more , if you are in a framework

15:03

right Like , it's easier to say

15:05

like I'm doing it this way and

15:07

there's lots of options for that , and I can refer

15:09

you to some great programs that do that too , because

15:11

it's very difficult for most people

15:14

, I think , to think about letting go of something you really love

15:16

. I mean I'm sure you have a favorite bottle

15:18

of red wine or like there's got to be . There's a

15:20

few things out there that I this is an important

15:22

part of like our culture and these

15:24

are delicious beverages that played a really

15:27

important part so they can be consumed

15:29

, although the way people

15:31

understood how much we could consume without

15:34

having a negative impact versus what we

15:37

know now . When we consume it it

15:39

has an intoxicating effect , but it also has

15:41

, unfortunately , a toxic effect because

15:43

it's a toxin . So here are

15:45

the effects of it and you need to know . But we

15:47

eat toxins all the time , so it's just like when

15:50

you know that you have to just be balanced about

15:52

it . Personally , for me , I

15:54

think I associated the feeling of it

15:56

with some sort of like stress release

15:58

or something , because once I started doing other

16:01

things and I was trained on knowing why and

16:03

I think for all the reasons you just

16:05

described I had all these immediate

16:07

health improvements , particularly to my mental

16:09

health .

16:10

I mean absolutely .

16:11

I felt my mental health was not maybe

16:13

so good . I was like really kind of . I

16:15

think I had a lot of like self-esteem issues

16:18

I think I had to deal with , you know

16:20

, all the things that are like the normal people encounter

16:22

. I say normal because I'm like what I

16:24

think I went through was kind of like crazy because I

16:27

worked for a beer company . It

16:29

was very much part of the lifestyle

16:31

or whatever , and I didn't think they

16:34

encouraged really over drinking where

16:36

we worked . I thought everybody was like encouraged to

16:38

just like be responsible . But

16:41

you know there's tragedies associated

16:43

with that too and there were people that passed

16:45

away or had illnesses that

16:47

you know could have been associated with

16:49

that . I think the company did

16:51

a good job letting people make their choices

16:53

there and there were sober people that worked

16:56

at Boston Beer and they supported that very

16:58

early on and I think those

17:00

guys actually inspired me . They were kind

17:02

of like my seat hey guys , if you hear this

17:04

, you were my secret mental

17:06

heroes because they

17:08

did it and like were successful at work

17:10

, they were respected . But

17:13

I loved it . I loved my experience there . I naively

17:16

thought when I moved on , when I encountered

17:18

other CEOs and stuff , they'd be like Jim

17:20

and Martin and shocking they're

17:23

not and that naivete

17:25

ultimately led me down this series

17:28

of like different types of career moves , because

17:30

I think I kind of stumbled a little bit when

17:32

I fell into cultures and

17:34

companies that weren't the same not that Boston

17:36

Beer is perfect , but I think they're pretty

17:39

good . Now that I've been able to compare

17:41

it to companies of different sizes and

17:43

statures , I

17:45

think we had actually a really good culture and also

17:47

, using that as a framework , a lot of the

17:49

best practices that I take for how to

17:52

build good teams were during that time that

17:54

you and I were there when Craft Beer was

17:56

growing really fast and the pressure was on right

17:58

. We actually were part of like this really

18:00

explosive category growth where

18:03

business was growing so fast

18:05

and like we were all learning

18:07

and being squeezed , I think in a very interesting

18:09

way , and it was a cool kind of social experiment

18:11

. But the one thing that I took for

18:13

granted was leadership who actually

18:16

is very loving , and I think

18:18

Jim is an example of

18:20

people that were loving .

18:22

You were in a tough market for Craft Beer too . You

18:24

were down at Texas and I think I struggled

18:26

in that job like . Yeah , you were in China .

18:28

A lot , but I learned a ton and I think

18:31

, because I went through that hardship

18:33

and then ultimately got to go take this educator

18:35

role , I had to still learn the

18:37

same lesson about how to live life

18:40

with a good relationship

18:42

with alcohol , a healthy relationship , and in my

18:44

case it's refraining

18:47

right , it's just being abstaining

18:49

from it and that's because the

18:51

health benefits Scott were actually kind

18:53

of frightening .

18:55

What year did you go through that process ?

18:57

So I stopped four years ago on

18:59

New Year's Eve , so that would be the December

19:02

31st 2019 . Just kind of , only

19:04

because I am kind of a New Year's

19:06

resolution sort of person , I was like , woo

19:08

, if you're going to do something , start on the beginning of the year

19:10

. So I stopped . I remember

19:12

, and I just very , very bad

19:15

hangover and my daughter had just

19:17

turned one and it was like when

19:19

she wasn't sleeping very much and it was really

19:21

pushing myself mentally . I was

19:23

working full time , moving cross

19:25

country , having a toddler

19:28

not much older , being in kind of

19:30

a very difficult home

19:32

situation . So it was just a

19:35

very trying time and I remember

19:37

like I don't know if this is the best

19:39

time to stop drinking , but I'm going to go for

19:41

it . Then I did it for

19:43

this first year and then COVID

19:45

hit . Then

19:48

everything went inside for a long

19:50

time and that made it easier , but

19:54

it made the internal changes

19:56

happen so much faster

19:59

, because when you're with one

20:01

tiny group of people and

20:03

you're going through that experience of

20:05

not really being aware , I

20:08

was drinking to the point that I think I wasn't

20:10

even really experiencing much

20:12

of reality as I could even experience

20:14

it , which is shocking Because we're as

20:17

humans we only see so little , like one

20:19

one millionth of reality or something . But

20:21

I was seeing so far below that

20:23

line , like my level of conscientiousness

20:26

was so low , because , unfortunately

20:29

for me , I had a very unhealthy relationship

20:31

with alcohol and I went through

20:33

that experience of not having that besides

20:35

the health benefits . I think

20:37

it opened up my

20:39

eyes to other things .

20:41

So you started the one year no beer program and

20:43

then after that one year was up , you just

20:45

kind of kept going and then you hit thousand days

20:47

and then you're good .

20:48

Yeah , but I would say I wasn't

20:51

thinking in terms of a year when I started

20:53

it . And when I started it I signed up for 30

20:55

days . I was like , okay , let's see if I

20:57

can do one month and let's see

20:59

how it goes . And the content was so good , it was very

21:01

motivating and

21:03

I had read a book called this Naked

21:05

Mind by Annie Grace and it kind

21:08

of was like a fun book to read because she actually

21:10

says , and they're like go ahead and keep drinking while you

21:12

read my book if you want to . And

21:14

I think you heard giving me that permission

21:16

to do that , Let me do

21:19

it my way . And that was . I think I read

21:21

that book three months before

21:23

I decided to do to

21:25

try a challenge like a program

21:27

which was one year , no beer . So that kind

21:29

of like got me in the mood to sort of like

21:31

start with something manageable and small , like what you

21:33

did . And then

21:35

I decided to do 90 days and I think

21:37

from 90 I upgraded to six months and

21:39

when I hit that six month mark I

21:41

started thinking in terms of how many days I

21:43

had been alcohol free and

21:45

there was something so liberating about that that

21:47

I knew I was going to make it to a year which I

21:49

had never in my life since

21:52

I had become an adult age person

21:54

drinking alcohol pretty regularly . I

21:57

had never contemplated that before , so I was

21:59

like whoa , this is insane . And

22:01

like it was just . Life was more enjoyable

22:03

. I felt like I was just experiencing

22:05

it in a more healthy

22:07

way , I guess , and I felt better and

22:09

I just felt like I could give people more love

22:11

and attention .

22:12

It's so interesting because , when you think about it

22:14

, probably had a couple beers junior

22:17

senior year that's when you start and maybe in high school

22:19

, and this year I just hit 50 and thinking

22:21

to myself oh my God , we're talking 34

22:23

years of constantly

22:26

beating your body up with just

22:28

immeasurable amounts of alcohol , unnecessary

22:30

amounts of alcohol .

22:31

Yeah , I mean more than it was essential back in colonial

22:33

times to like stay alive or whatever

22:36

. You know what I mean . Can't drink the water . Basically

22:38

it's like that's when it was necessary

22:40

, so now it's just like , it's all like

22:43

, just know what it is when you do it and it's

22:45

also a great solvent . So it's a great

22:47

solvent when you're dissolving , say , expensive

22:49

grapes into it and letting those flavors

22:51

naturally dissolve in there . I mean what a

22:53

cool thing to think about same with beer

22:55

. Right Like , create this sort of liquid

22:58

from our grain store and

23:00

it becomes a . I have this amazing

23:02

book that I just got at the American

23:05

Home Brew Association . It's called Sacred , herbal

23:07

and Healing Beers and I

23:09

just think this is so fascinating because I'm

23:11

like this is plant medicine .

23:13

Wow .

23:14

That's like a lot . That's what we're seeing in the hemp

23:16

beverage movement , right Like it's plant medicine

23:18

.

23:18

Yeah , essentially . Yeah , you're right .

23:19

That's what beer is , and I think non-alcoholic

23:22

beer is very healthy . I drink it all the time

23:24

and , like I never gain any weight , I

23:26

never . I never have a hangover

23:28

or a headache from . Most of the time I mean

23:30

I can taste because of my sensory

23:32

training and my desire . I think , especially

23:35

for any beer , like I'm probably like crazy

23:37

niche person in the space because

23:39

of what ? All the things I've done , you know , like

23:41

I've made beverages with the

23:44

biggest breweries in the world . I've actually

23:46

gotten to help them formulate things you know . So

23:48

I have this strange experience

23:50

. And then for AF and NA beer , I

23:52

mean I wrote a book on it , like I wrote the world's

23:54

first book on AF and NA beer . I was like you

23:57

know what I know so much about this dumb

23:59

topic . I'm just going to write about it .

24:01

And I'm going to put that in the show notes too .

24:03

Yes , please do . Yeah , thank you I

24:05

. But as I wrote it and I have to say

24:07

, as my team wrote it , I

24:09

did not write this alone . There were so

24:12

many amazing people , scott

24:14

, that contributed to it Like wow . But

24:16

as I was putting it together and seeing it come

24:18

to a live , I'm like what

24:21

an awesome thing to put out there . Like

24:23

that's so cool , what a niche

24:25

topic . But it's growing and when

24:27

I got that book it reminded me of why

24:29

I am so passionate about it . Like beer

24:32

is just that's what we studied , right

24:34

, that's what we know and appreciate about it . Alcoholic

24:37

beer , the

25:15

same Like it was a delivery method

25:17

for people in their

25:19

grain store , in their spice

25:22

house . It was a way to dispense

25:24

medicine . I mean , that's how the Egyptians use

25:26

it was for nourishment . They knew that

25:28

. They knew that they were low alcohol beverages . But

25:30

at that time you kind of needed to have fermentation

25:33

going on or you were probably

25:35

going to die because the water was not clean

25:37

. You know , like , how could it be when you're living

25:39

like that ? You know so and I think

25:41

, as people got more sophisticated , like

25:43

it just got more specialty and there's so

25:45

many cool things about beer and there's so

25:47

many styles and those all really trace

25:49

back to that story of

25:51

how they were delivering some benefit

25:54

or belief or whatever

25:56

. And I'm like now we know the effect

25:58

of alcohol , let's adjust the operational

26:01

system , let's educate the

26:03

public and then let's encourage them to

26:05

drink more beer because you can do it

26:07

and it's healthy for you . Like , how

26:10

do you think athletic brewing is getting

26:12

their base of people ? These are healthy people

26:14

that love beer . They want

26:16

to optimize their life and I think that that

26:18

applies to whether you're running a marathon

26:21

, to whether you want to have the best podcast out there

26:23

. I think that all those things that

26:25

people really want to see themselves do

26:27

and achieve , they're probably better

26:29

positioned to do when they're drinking mostly

26:31

non-alcoholic beer . Let's say

26:33

, if you're a beer drinker , or wine , or RTDs

26:36

or spirits or whatever , and then

26:38

blending in or substituting

26:41

a fully alcoholic version or

26:43

low alcoholic version when

26:45

the occasion fits , because

26:47

then you can appreciate it for what it is . That's

26:50

tasting the history of it and that's where

26:52

I think the future is going

26:54

is that way .

26:57

It's really interesting because the market , from

26:59

a craft beer standpoint , is just littered

27:01

with 8% gigantic

27:04

IPAs and then you have the NA sec

27:06

. It feels like there's nothing in the middle

27:08

. I mean , I know there is , but it feels like there's

27:10

nothing in the middle . But it's nice

27:12

that this NA segment has so

27:15

much to choose from . We're seeing spirits .

27:17

There's hemp derived now . So if

27:19

you want to feel an alcohol adjacent

27:21

thing with exponentially

27:23

, if you want to talk about herbal beverages

27:25

like- .

27:26

Never in a million years thought you'd see that .

27:27

This is basically plant medicine

27:29

gone mainstream , but

27:32

the public isn't aware yet , so

27:34

it's kind of transitioning out . But they're finding

27:36

an intersection , for whatever reason

27:38

, of people that are in the alcohol

27:40

beverage space that want to either substitute

27:43

four or five nights a week or they're

27:45

going all the way . Either way there's

27:47

a person in that . They're all in

27:49

that space really , so it's the entire Alkbev

27:52

industry . So I'm projecting it to be valued

27:55

about $25 billion over the next seven

27:57

to 10 years , just to hemp derived

27:59

, and that's only through the traditional

28:01

channels . It's also got probably an exponentially

28:04

larger rate of growth . If you look at the e-commerce

28:06

side of it , it's crazy , the

28:08

e-commerce . I mean women are buying the stuff

28:10

online and shipping it to their house because it's discreet

28:13

, they don't want to go to dispensaries .

28:14

Yes .

28:15

They see their THC consumption as private

28:17

and they want that information protected . And

28:20

I think the sooner that the industry realizes

28:22

that and invests in that message

28:24

to the consumer that they can just swap out

28:26

their at home drinking for these other

28:29

beverages . And I think they have to see if it fits

28:31

for them too , because I mean hemp can probably

28:33

give some people headaches . It probably has a certain

28:35

effect on people . That's all different . So

28:37

they should start with a low dose option , at

28:40

like a 2.5 milligram , and then find

28:42

what they like . But the beverages taste

28:44

good . They taste like RTDs , they

28:47

taste like their analog .

28:49

Yeah , I did . I forgot

28:51

what episode it was , but I had the high tide boys

28:53

on , yes , josh and Shay . I

28:56

know you've worked with them a little bit when we did some tasting

28:58

. I did not get any samples from

29:00

them because that's illegal , but let's just say

29:02

I had another friend who sent me some

29:05

and I did try it . I will say that you

29:07

definitely do need to pace

29:09

yourself and understand that side , that

29:11

category , because I had two you

29:13

said you had two , five milligrams . Yeah

29:15

, five milligrams . And I remember staring at the

29:18

couch loving my pillows I

29:20

was just in awe of my pillows

29:22

.

29:23

Yeah , that's pretty , depending on your tolerance

29:26

level , I mean , and your own individual

29:29

body . Remember this is connected

29:31

to your endocannabinoid system . It's a secondary

29:33

nervous system in your body and the plant molecule

29:36

fits into the endocannabinoid

29:38

system , kind of like a lock and key . So

29:40

when that cannabinoid goes in there now

29:43

it's part of you , it's

29:45

a medicine . It's bringing you

29:47

into homeostasis , which can take

29:49

you to the couch , my friend . It can take you to the refrigerator

29:51

, it can do all the things . So

29:54

you have to be aware of its impact

29:56

. You have to know that also , it does have

29:58

an impact in the brain , because there are receptors

30:00

for this in our brain that fit with this , which

30:02

is why Delta 9THC is

30:05

one of those . There are others , but

30:07

that's the one people classically think about

30:09

when they think about doing using

30:11

these things . So that's what I'm doing

30:13

now . I'm just educating people about the category

30:15

and what they can do . But let me also say back

30:18

to Josh and Che from Hi-Tide they

30:21

are going to be doing hemp derived . So

30:23

I think I can say that Hopefully I'm not in trouble , guys

30:26

, but we can give it to you because

30:28

under the same bill that lets you buy

30:30

CBD at the grocery store that farm

30:32

bill right now allows for

30:35

the Delta 9THC from hemp and

30:37

we can synthesize it too . So basically

30:39

we are able to take just like in hops . We can make

30:42

a hops extract and you can make

30:44

beer just bitter , you can make it just

30:46

aromatic . We can separate those things now so

30:48

that technology exists in hemp so

30:50

we can take CBD , let's

30:52

say add a catalyst

30:54

to it , so put something in it , kind

30:56

of like a chemical reaction . If

30:58

you will and there's natural versions of

31:01

this you can do it with hydrogen peroxide

31:03

, for example , as a catalyst . So you

31:05

can use different types of methods to make

31:07

this stuff and then you convert it

31:09

into THC , delta 9 , which is the same

31:11

stuff you and other products

31:14

. It'll make other things too . It's kind

31:16

of like a fermentation . If you think about

31:18

it like that , you're creating a reaction

31:20

. So you've got to kind of know what's in there . So

31:22

the good producers have kind of figured

31:24

this out . They're like for Tosa . I

31:26

have a lot of respect for their company . They've done a

31:28

lot of research and they have figured out how

31:31

to kind of separate these things and give you just

31:33

those aspects you want which people traditionally

31:35

think about when they think about they've ever tried marijuana

31:38

, in the sense that they've thought about it Like people

31:40

have smoked a joint in their life or something like that . That's

31:43

the same molecule , but you had a really

31:45

high dose because you inhaled it . So

31:47

when you take micro

31:49

amounts of this stuff and you

31:51

put them in your body in conjunction with

31:54

CBD , let's say , or CBN

31:56

, which are other non-intoxicating

31:59

cannabinoids , you

32:01

put all those together . Well , now you are

32:03

administering something to yourself that has going to

32:06

have a reaction for you and

32:08

you should see if those are beneficial , because there's some

32:10

scientific studies that suggest some

32:12

of these have a positive impact

32:14

on some people . I mean , I just think everybody has to

32:16

try it for themselves and if you get a headache , I'd

32:19

probably back off . That could just be a reaction

32:21

that you have where you have maybe an allergy

32:23

to it . Maybe try

32:25

another dose , try another brand , but if it gives

32:27

you a headache a few times , maybe

32:30

it's not for you . And then you just

32:32

know hey , I don't take aspirin

32:34

or ibuprofen , maybe

32:36

you just don't take cannabis-infused products

32:38

with THC because you're probably having

32:41

some sort of negative reaction to that . I just

32:43

pay attention to what you're taking and see how you feel

32:45

, but for a lot of people . They feel good , they feel

32:47

relaxed , they feel social , they can have

32:49

it with their friends . And I think drinks

32:51

are a great mechanism , a delivery

32:54

system for this , because you don't go to someone's

32:56

house to split a gummy , as my friend Joe

32:58

likes to say . We take a six-pack

33:00

, we take a bottle of wine , we

33:03

take drinks . That's how we connect with people

33:05

, that's how we commune with them . So I

33:07

think beverages are a great mechanism

33:09

for this . And Lee

33:12

, one of my colleagues from Boston Beer

33:14

, who I'm in this strategic alliance

33:16

with and we're building just this

33:18

phenomenal business at

33:20

Hop Forward around hemp beverages

33:23

, and she is

33:25

just a genius and she's created all these really

33:27

cool podcasts that

33:29

you should check out , called the Enlightened Buzz , and

33:32

they're a few minutes long but they're educational

33:34

and they're educating people on

33:36

what is THC . What

33:39

are these products going to do to me ? If I take

33:41

them , how am I going to feel ? So

33:44

she's doing this really cool education

33:46

. That's actually just from the perspective of someone

33:48

. That's like I might be looking for a replacement

33:51

for alcohol . I

33:53

kind of don't want to feel hungover because

33:55

it kind of steals my time and

33:57

I read about its negative health impacts and

34:00

I feel better when I take breaks , or

34:02

maybe I want to take some breaks

34:04

, and then once in a while I'm going to have a glass of wine , but

34:06

I'm going to pretty much live this other

34:08

lifestyle . It's like being keto or being paleo

34:11

or whatever . You can pulse it in to

34:14

your life and I think that's how everybody kind of starts

34:16

. But these beverages on just

34:18

the NA side have to go

34:20

hand in hand with that , because to your point

34:22

, you drink two high tides

34:25

and you're not in its five milligrams

34:27

apiece . That might be too much for

34:29

you , which is why . That's why I think people should

34:31

expect to see these things in smaller formats

34:34

and happy this client

34:36

of ours that we've worked with at Hop Forward

34:38

. We have a 7.5 ounce can

34:41

, which for women , is kind of a perfect

34:43

size . It's sort of the way the mini Coca-Cola's

34:45

exist . I don't want to drink a whole can

34:47

, I just want to drink a little bit and it

34:49

feels like a cocktail and looks like a cocktail

34:51

and can be served like a cocktail , even in

34:53

a wine glass or mixed with a

34:55

plain seltzer water , and you can walk around

34:58

and have it in your Yeti . And I think they're finding out

35:00

how they can put it all together and how

35:02

it works for them , and she's really

35:04

driving a lot of that . So I think her

35:06

work and her knowledge and

35:09

her ability to grow brand she's a very good

35:11

sales leader as well has led

35:13

to her being very passionate about educating

35:15

the public on cannabis beverages as

35:18

an alternative . And as she's doing

35:20

that , she's simultaneously having this

35:22

journey . Where she's actually doing

35:24

this , she's seeing these

35:26

beverages have a positive benefit

35:29

and I think she would be

35:31

happy to share that story . But it's just been a really cool

35:33

thing to experience

35:36

with her , because I know that feeling from

35:38

a different perspective , but really

35:41

from being like I think I'm done forever

35:43

, and that was four years ago and I

35:45

haven't had any alcohol since then . My

35:48

health is off the charts good

35:50

. I'll be 42 in February and

35:52

I feel great . I

35:55

feel like I could be my own daughter

35:57

sometimes compared to before . But I

35:59

also see I

36:01

went from having a broken heart to having

36:04

my heart fulfilled and

36:06

realizing

36:09

all these amazing things that I have

36:11

and just personally

36:13

and having an amazing support

36:15

system of people that really stepped

36:17

up and cared about me and have

36:19

helped me grow my business or mentored

36:22

me or just let me share

36:24

my story with them , and I appreciate that

36:26

, because I actually ran into Jim Cook

36:29

recently . Oh yeah yeah , I got to

36:31

give him a hug and I got to tell him about what I

36:33

was up to and he said something really cool

36:35

to me . He said , megan , you know

36:37

, you could have gone one of two ways

36:39

in life . You definitely could have gone up

36:41

, or you could have gone the other way and you chose

36:44

up . He's like good job . And I really appreciated

36:46

that , because that's the culture of

36:48

building , like these people that were

36:50

great role models to me . That's awesome . Okay

36:53

, like I'm the sober person on vacation now

36:55

How's everybody doing ? And

36:57

it was like really kind of funny

36:59

for me , like dude dancing sober

37:01

had never done that before . What is that

37:03

, you know

37:06

just like what is that ? as an adult , I know would

37:08

never do that so , but , like you know , the

37:10

things I realized about myself were just sort of like fears

37:12

of being like socially awkward were

37:14

some of the characteristics that actually I think

37:16

people were telling me they really appreciated

37:18

about me , which is like I could be more loving and fun

37:21

because I wasn't , you know , kind of just consumed

37:23

in myself and I didn't think alcohol

37:25

at the end of the day , turned me into a better person

37:28

either . I found I had more conflict

37:30

in my relationships as a result of that

37:33

and like kind of like things . I

37:35

just saw patterns in my life developing that

37:37

I wasn't very excited

37:39

about and I was just like . I thought I was going to be

37:41

able to do more by now but I

37:43

thought , well , maybe let's just inventory your

37:45

life and see what's happening and try to change

37:47

things up a little . When I did , I would , you know , got

37:50

some pretty pretty decent results .

37:52

Amazing , amazing stories we were talking

37:54

earlier . Like you , just recently got married and

37:56

one of the greatest stories I've ever heard . It made

37:58

me tear up a little . Could just give a brief

38:00

summary of that , because it's it's like a magical story , yeah

38:02

thanks , yeah , I appreciate it .

38:04

We call it like an epic love story . So yeah

38:07

, I had a childhood

38:10

love , I guess you know we met when we were

38:12

in middle school . We used to like play basketball

38:14

in my driveway and all the things

38:16

you know . I moved away and we just sort

38:18

of lost touch in life and everything and

38:20

25 years later I

38:22

had become sober and was , you know , kind

38:24

of my , my family with my

38:27

kids . That was going through a lot of change , put

38:29

a lot of pressure on our relationship and

38:31

we were going to go separate ways and

38:33

I was ready to kind of just

38:35

I couldn't believe it , I was going to have to start

38:37

all over again at my age , you know . But

38:39

I was prepared to do that and

38:42

then kind of said a prayer a first prayer I'd said in a

38:44

very long time for God to fix my

38:46

love life and my first love kind

38:48

of reemerged and as

38:51

a friend and a support person , I think

38:53

we helped each other through a lot . You know his . He

38:55

had a death in his immediate family , his

38:58

sister passed away very unexpectedly . It

39:00

was very hard on him . He had been through a really

39:02

tough relationship and

39:04

divorce and stress and he also

39:06

has a very stressful job . He's

39:08

a nuclear reactor operator

39:11

, so you know he didn't like shlub

39:13

around . After high school he went into the Navy

39:15

and became part of their nuclear program

39:17

. He spent two years under in a

39:20

submarine , so like I used to be the most

39:22

interesting person in alcohol , like

39:24

background and knowing a lot about beer . But I'm like

39:26

talk to this guy Like he

39:28

works at a nuclear reactor , Like there's

39:30

like no people that he would ever meet

39:32

, that , do that , and he's just a great guy . And

39:35

we just went . When we'd gone through these hard

39:37

things together , we were like are we crazy enough to

39:39

think that like we could have like a marriage

39:41

and like be together , like we just still

39:44

had that same love . You know , we shared a lot

39:46

of cool experiences together

39:48

when we were younger . Like divine things that

39:50

we thought were sort of signs to us , that

39:53

kind of brought us back together again because we remembered

39:55

them from when we were young , you know , and that

39:58

became real love and we got

40:00

a lot of counseling and advice and

40:02

we got married a couple of weeks ago and we

40:04

have six kids between the two of us

40:06

. And I also live part time

40:08

in Michigan and he's in Illinois

40:11

because of his job and family . So it's

40:13

the craziest life that I never

40:15

realized I would get when I

40:17

said that prayer . But I am so grateful

40:19

and he is just , yeah , an amazing human

40:21

, very supportive of my endeavors and

40:24

really just a

40:26

good leader in the community . He's a JV basketball

40:28

coach and I'm like his assistant coach now

40:30

, like I was , like I can make

40:32

a good assistant coach , like I can do that

40:35

. You know , I like supportive . I'm like I don't have

40:37

to know all the rules , you know , but I

40:39

love basketball and I get to see him

40:41

accomplishing these crazy time

40:44

capsule dreams , because I don't really

40:46

remember him from , you know . Besides , like 25

40:48

years ago and we were very young . So

40:50

it's a very new and interesting perspective

40:52

on life , but a beautiful one , and we're

40:54

both really grateful for the opportunity

40:56

and the challenge of raising

40:59

six kids in a blended

41:01

home , right ? So it's

41:03

like you got to kind of I get to be that good assistant coach . You know you're not

41:05

really trying to parent someone

41:07

else's kids and you know you don't necessarily want them

41:10

trying to parent your kids , but you want them to

41:12

be very loving and supportive , and

41:15

so what we find this easy for us is just like demonstrating

41:17

our love and like being happy and having

41:20

a good home . So I changed my last name , my

41:22

name , to an easy , from an easy last name

41:24

to a hard last name , from Anderson

41:26

to Kester , and then decided

41:29

to , you know , marry , like

41:31

the love of my life , which was like such

41:33

a great , such a great epic

41:35

thing that was , I felt , like very

41:37

, a really great gift .

41:39

That's amazing . Thanks , that's amazing . It's such a great

41:41

story . I'm so happy for you . Congratulations . So

41:45

we go through this whole period where you're not drinking , and

41:48

when does transcending trauma

41:50

come out ?

41:50

Yeah , so , and that was about that was 2022

41:53

. So I guess I would have been in two years of

41:55

being alcohol free . And that's when that like rat magnet

41:57

movement happened , when all those women spoke

42:00

out on Instagram about you know

42:02

some basically being sexually

42:04

harassed or abused in the alcohol industry

42:06

. So I think that , from a gender

42:08

perspective , I think there's a lot of you

42:11

know , a lot of openness there to

42:13

, for people of you know all affiliations

42:16

and all gender identifications that kind

42:18

of participate in that . So it kind of became this really

42:20

interesting community of people that spoke out

42:22

and I just saw hurt in

42:24

people .

42:25

So for folks who are not familiar with the rat

42:28

magnet , a woman had been , had

42:30

she been sexually assaulted .

42:31

Her rat , I think really horribly harassed , but like abused

42:34

I mean she was used yes . She

42:36

was really traumatized . She described her

42:38

pain and the impact

42:41

that these events had on her life , and

42:43

then more women came out with that same

42:45

. So like the details to me were

42:47

like were like what . They were all awful

42:49

because obviously somebody felt like they

42:51

had been , they had been harmed to the point

42:53

that , like they had been traumatized and like

42:55

when people write about their story , and that

42:57

encouraged a lot of women to write about their story , and

43:00

I think , you know , there's always people that I think

43:02

take advantage of that too . I think there were some

43:04

stories that were probably not all

43:07

true or maybe people were challenging

43:09

them or saying , like you know

43:11

, I think it created a lot of conversations

43:13

like that needed to happen

43:15

and I think in some cases , like

43:18

highlighted worse , culture needed to be fixed

43:20

. You know , but I did think there was . It

43:22

got really bad for a while . I think it got to a

43:24

point where it was like a lot of over , like

43:26

, wow , everyone's pain was

43:29

out there and it was just the

43:31

industry did not react well to it . I

43:33

think there was like a really Absolutely not

43:35

.

43:36

The industry didn't know how to act to

43:38

all of those things because society

43:40

was they get caught a lot of people off guard because

43:42

the the brewing industry is such a tight knit

43:44

group of folks and no brewery

43:47

hates another brewery . There's no rival breweries

43:49

, everybody's friends and but

43:51

a lot of them had their own little secrets and

43:53

those secrets had never come to light until

43:55

you know . This woman posted yeah .

43:57

And it was a crazy time . I mean , there was a lot

43:59

of growth , there was a lot of alcohol . I think

44:01

when that good beer hunting article came out

44:03

, yes , that mark , uh , that mark

44:05

wrote on the culture of over drinking

44:07

. You know , when I met him and we

44:09

connected over what that lifestyle was

44:12

like , it was easy for

44:14

some people to get totally overwhelmed

44:16

by that and I think for some of us who

44:18

are more prone than others , like that's

44:21

just a risk that's associated and being

44:23

in that environment where a lot of heavy

44:25

drinking and maybe what we call binge

44:28

drinking , just there were a lot

44:30

of opportunities for that , I suppose . So

44:32

you know , there's , uh , you know , people

44:34

that I don't think and it was ever encouraged

44:36

, but it's just a reality of how a certain

44:39

percentage of people would likely act

44:41

when , when presented that opportunity

44:43

. So I think when you looked at that , we

44:45

connected over like man , you know we'd

44:48

both been really impacted by this and I was kind of like this

44:50

is like my comeback story from alcohol

44:52

. You know , like I want to give back . I

44:54

actually the reason I created aficionado

44:56

is because I wanted to fund transcending trauma

44:59

, because I want to teach everybody in the industry

45:01

. I want everybody in the industry to have access

45:03

to my toolbox because I was

45:05

like I've got to find a way to give out

45:07

, like if somebody's hurting , like

45:09

in this industry , as a result of alcohol

45:11

or alcohol induced event , like please

45:14

come to me somehow and like I can

45:16

at least get you in touch with the same people that

45:18

helped me . I want that information

45:20

out there and I think for me , meditation and

45:23

the understanding of my own consciousness and

45:25

development and having support

45:27

systems , like a teacher that I could

45:29

talk to whenever I wanted to , that was like

45:31

trauma informed , would

45:33

talk to me about it as long as I wanted to . There's group meditations

45:36

and all this stuff and then combining

45:39

that with a program like one year , no beer

45:41

. That taught me about alcohol , really

45:43

taught me about myself , because it made me ask . And then

45:45

I did a lot of personal development and

45:47

psychologist and like all the things . You

45:50

don't have to go to that level , I think , for everybody

45:52

else . I just , if you're hurting , come

45:55

to me , I'll show you my toolbox . You might not

45:57

want everything , take the hammer

45:59

, take the screwdriver , but if , whatever

46:01

you want , if you have something

46:03

broken , I might know a way

46:06

or a program because , like I was hurting

46:08

for a long time and I also

46:10

was impacted by overconsumption

46:13

of alcohol . So like , if you , if we have that

46:15

in common you don't have to tell me your trauma

46:17

. I'll just tell you what mine was

46:20

kind of like . If people ask

46:22

or sometimes they're just like I just want to know

46:24

how you got alcohol free Like they care a

46:26

lot about that , I think , but there's so much

46:28

more to that . So I think for me giving , having

46:31

a way to keep the med , so I have a

46:33

meditation meeting tonight . Like we've actually trained

46:35

already eight or nine women in this meditation

46:38

technique and so and I've been able to

46:40

fund a lot of that through aficionado

46:42

and companies like BrewDog , for

46:44

example , that have invested in my program and

46:47

are taking it out to companies like Total Wine

46:49

and Whole Foods and Andrew's Distributing

46:51

and talking to people about getting trained

46:54

and certified in AF and NA beer , because

46:56

for all the reasons I just talked about , like it's going

46:58

to help the category grow . You know it's a . It's a really

47:00

big opportunity . I think the whole AFNA

47:03

category is about $35 billion

47:05

. It has seven to 10 years

47:07

to mature and I

47:09

want to help the that industry grow

47:12

and when in doing so , I

47:14

want to give back to people

47:16

that are impacted by this or hurting , and

47:18

that's why I started transcending trauma .

47:19

That's amazing . It's so great Thanks

47:22

to that in the show notes as well , which

47:24

brings us to aficionado . So

47:26

you and I are both certified cisterns , so

47:28

that is certified in all

47:31

things beer .

47:31

I'm a BJCP judge also , yeah .

47:34

Which is amazing . That's a super hard

47:36

one . I haven't even tackled that one . You know , there's

47:38

all these certifications out there . I have a WSET2

47:41

for wine , but there are all these other ones

47:43

out there , but there isn't one for

47:45

non-alcohol or AFTA . Until

47:48

you come along .

47:49

Yeah , yeah , exactly . That's why I created

47:51

it . So my very last job at Boston

47:54

Beer was I ran beer education from

47:56

North America . It was a really cool job

47:58

and I am so honored that I

48:00

got to be in that position because I got

48:02

to build training programs that

48:04

basically directly added revenue to

48:06

the company . We were the type of company that

48:08

invested in training . So we saw deploying

48:11

privatized training to

48:13

clients like retailers that wanted to

48:15

know more about the category . We would

48:17

go train them how to pass the cistern exam , but through

48:19

the lens of Boston Beer . So we had frameworks

48:21

for training . We had a lot of resources

48:24

. We could buy all the samples you know . So it

48:26

wasn't like a traditional dry-sponsored

48:28

training . It was very personalized and it helped them

48:30

achieve certification , which ultimately

48:32

helped those organizations better

48:34

spot opportunity in craft beer . So

48:37

I took that same model and made

48:39

a Fisianado for what we call

48:41

AFNA , af and NA right . So in

48:43

Dr Keith Via , who

48:46

has Saria Brewing , which is a really also

48:48

created Blue Moon , so a few people might

48:50

know of that . But Keith is the one that encouraged

48:53

me to create the program . I knew

48:55

he was making a 0.0 beer

48:57

and it was really good and

48:59

he had invested a lot in it . Keith's

49:02

a pretty smart guy and he tends to know where the market's going , so

49:04

he said you should make this

49:07

. I realized that we needed

49:09

more resources and we needed

49:11

to step it up a little bit . So

49:15

I basically just hired a

49:17

technical beer writer , katie Nishaka

49:19

, from Odell Brewing , and then

49:22

she went on to work for the US

49:24

Fish and Wildlife Department now and

49:26

she's a forensic scientist , but she's also

49:28

a hops expert and a really

49:30

, really excellent technical writer with a master's

49:33

degree in science . So she is very

49:35

good at writing technical stuff and I am

49:37

a technical person . So I knew I

49:39

wanted to build it like a Ciceroan Level 1

49:41

, let's say , like a beer server . I wanted it to

49:44

just . If you took it one day

49:46

, you would get ROI from

49:48

it like within a few days . I

49:51

wanted it to be meaningful enough that I

49:53

did this program and it helped me learn a

49:56

lot so I can recognize I could better spot

49:58

opportunity . Today I sold five more cases

50:00

of stuff . Today I helped

50:03

five more people because I saw the guy

50:05

order a water and I asked him if he wanted any

50:07

beer and he was like oh yeah , I didn't see that on your

50:09

menu . Or

50:12

hey , I saw somebody who

50:14

asked me about NA and I

50:16

told them about the benefits and now

50:19

they came back three weeks later and

50:21

that's all they're drinking and I sold them

50:23

more . Or tonight I

50:25

encouraged a drink , a

50:27

beer , drink , a NA kind

50:29

of campaign thing , and I sold eight

50:32

beers instead of four . And

50:34

I mean so I think that

50:36

and it's for premium eyes because it's

50:38

harder to make it

50:41

actually requires a lot of . It's

50:43

pretty hard because you're really

50:45

kind of creating typically an

50:47

analog of a product for a lot of brands

50:49

. They want to put their name on it , so they want it to taste

50:51

like their stuff . So that's actually

50:54

a technical challenge , right ? Because

50:56

normally speaking , with Kraft you just

50:58

keep ruining the tank until you get

51:00

something you like , and that's the way we're reverse

51:02

engineering that we're saying we want it to be like

51:05

something that tastes like a Sam Adams , for example

51:07

. That's hard . Or

51:09

like a Deschutes . It's hard

51:11

to do that .

51:11

I mean alcohol is a component of taste . It does

51:14

give a certain amount of flavor to whatever

51:16

beverage it is , and it fully extracts it . It's not

51:18

going to taste exactly like the

51:21

original . So you've created the program

51:23

. You worked with Ray Daniels from

51:25

the Ciceroen program as well .

51:27

So I consulted I actually to Chris who was

51:30

running the Ciceroen program , and I also talked to

51:32

other people that worked at Ciceroen

51:34

or with them and to a lot of master Ciceroens

51:37

. So most of the master Ciceroens

51:39

helped me . For example , mirella Amato

51:41

wrote my non-alcoholic beer and food pairing

51:43

part of my section . I

51:45

consulted with Neil Witte who

51:47

is a draft expert on the draft piece

51:49

. He sent me David Quain's work . I've

51:52

consulted over the years with people

51:54

like Grant Wood who we worked with at Boston Beer . I

51:57

mean Grant is an expert in many topics and I would

51:59

say a lot of the things I've done at Hop Forward

52:01

. I learned a lot from Grant and

52:04

he's very well connected . He's helped to make a lot of

52:06

introductions for me and just been really

52:08

fun to work with and still be friends with

52:10

. We actually went and ate at a linea together

52:13

in Chicago for his birthday one year , grant

52:15

Wood , you know I think I saw that on

52:17

Facebook .

52:18

It was so cool .

52:19

I cried during the dinner because it was so

52:21

emotional and I bought the full alcohol pack and

52:23

I was back when I was still drinking . So I'm sure

52:26

it was a very intoxicating

52:28

, but it was actually an unforgettable one , just

52:30

one that I think , when I talk about people

52:32

that can moderate or are able to

52:34

do that man , good for

52:37

you if you can , I think that's

52:39

cool because that was such a memorable

52:41

experience that I think was totally

52:43

reason to imbibe

52:45

in something beautiful . That was the

52:48

most well curated , coolest meal

52:50

. Actually , another friend was there , megan

52:53

. She used to work at Boston Beer

52:55

. She was there at

52:57

this dinner .

52:58

That's awesome . It was a really memorable reunion .

53:00

I got to be a part of a really cool

53:02

group that night and it was a very

53:04

people that really appreciate food

53:06

and drink . So when I created

53:08

a Fiscianano , I actually didn't want

53:11

it to be like dogging the alcohol industry

53:13

, if you know what I mean . I kind of created it because

53:15

I value the alcohol industry

53:18

. I don't want my story necessarily

53:20

to overshadow the fact that the alcohol

53:23

category beverage category should still

53:25

exist . I just think that people are going

53:27

to be more aware of their habits and

53:29

I think we're starting to see the

53:31

result of that in the US market . So

53:34

we're seeing a shift in those consumers

53:37

because of everything that's happened , primarily COVID

53:39

it was such a big thing . Then , of

53:41

course , prohibition 2.0 , which is sort of the

53:43

legalization of cannabis and

53:45

cannabis products , I think is also influencing

53:48

that . But it's a moderation movement . People

53:50

are doing it because they don't want to be hung over

53:52

. If

53:55

that's affecting the industry , then that's telling you who

53:57

some of those primary consumers are and they're looking

53:59

for more options . So the industry is going

54:02

to evolve into that . But I knew

54:04

the alcohol industry needs to grow and I actually

54:06

think this is a big category for

54:08

it to grow if some of the brands begin

54:10

to invest in this innovation , like

54:13

Anheuser-Busch was . They're

54:15

investing . They just invested

54:17

millions and millions of dollars , I think between

54:20

35 and 50 million maybe in

54:22

new de-alcoolization equipment , because they

54:25

are actually behind on their own . Just

54:27

like operationally it's really hard to make that

54:29

much NA beer . They're just

54:31

capacity-wise and other

54:33

brand focuses , depending on the

54:35

market where you're at , I think , of

54:37

influence that growth . But it

54:39

is happening . They recognize

54:42

it because in Europe 15%

54:44

of the beer market is non-alcoholic

54:46

, so here it's 1% . So

54:49

it's already happened there because they

54:52

have more of a moderate approach

54:54

definitely more of like the—and the NAB Labs

54:56

are also growing there . That category of

54:58

low alcohol and no alcohol is

55:00

also growing exponentially in Europe , especially in

55:03

the UK . So they're also

55:05

going through this big moderation

55:07

mindset shift . I

55:09

think we're going to see it impact the industry . My

55:11

thought was create

55:13

something that bolts onto those programs . I

55:15

didn't go recreate beer styles

55:17

101 or wine styles

55:20

101 , let's say . I said here

55:22

is a training on alcohol-free and non-alcoholic

55:25

processes , ingredients , history

55:28

, specific to that niche

55:30

, so that it bolts onto the other product

55:32

, so that if you have a Cabernet I

55:34

don't have to retrain you about that . You

55:37

can talk in depth about that from your training

55:39

. But you can now talk about

55:42

that specific piece of the non-alcoholic

55:44

that bolts on and that allows

55:46

you to sell more and generate more revenue , and

55:48

that consumer is looking for that . So

55:51

if you're going to focus on that as a business

55:53

, I'm challenging businesses to

55:56

do that .

55:57

That's awesome . I'm so happy for you . I'm

55:59

so excited that somebody is doing what you're doing

56:01

. It's something long overdue

56:03

. I'm super happy for

56:06

you . I look forward to reading your

56:08

book . I read my preview , but I'll

56:10

be getting my copy . I'll link that in the show

56:12

notes as well All the links for aficionado

56:15

in there as well . If people want to keep up with

56:17

what you're doing , how do they keep up with you ?

56:19

I'd say follow me on LinkedIn . If

56:21

you want to follow where I think the

56:23

best content's coming from , go to

56:26

the aficionado certification

56:28

program LinkedIn page and follow

56:30

us there . Hop forward consulting

56:32

the Enlightened Buzz , which is

56:35

Lee's work . Please follow that . It's really

56:37

really good content . It's so good .

56:39

Okay .

56:40

I'm going to go to the link and me at Megan Anderson

56:43

on LinkedIn

56:45

, but also on LinkedIn just

56:47

on Megan Anderson , which is a great way to

56:49

follow me . I do plan to start building more content

56:51

on LinkedIn and connecting with people on

56:53

that platform .

56:55

It's M-E-A-G-E-N Anderson

56:57

.

56:58

Yes , thank you , scott . Thank you , yes . M-e-a-g-e-n

57:01

Anderson . Yes , an

57:04

alcohol-free aficionadoscom

57:06

is our website . You can get the link

57:08

to our book there , which is on Amazon Kindle

57:10

, which is the world's first book on AF

57:13

and NA beer called the AFNA Beer Certified

57:15

Learning Manual .

57:17

Definitely check that out . The spelling is very specific

57:19

. I typed in just a regular

57:21

Megan Anderson . I wasn't thinking . I know

57:23

how to spell your name Megan Anderson and then aficionado

57:25

. What popped up was Megan

57:28

Anderson , the MMA fighter who

57:30

apparently is an aficionado in

57:34

kicking ass . That showed up first

57:36

. Don't make that mistake .

57:37

Hey , that's kind of funny because I've

57:39

seen that before . Yes , how

57:42

you spell Megan does matter on this one .

57:44

Yes , exactly right , she's apparently

57:46

in it . The first article was like an aficionado

57:48

in ass kicking .

57:50

I was like oh all right , I actually

57:52

feel cool , like way cooler now , anyway

57:54

, because now I feel like it's kind of like what people

57:56

see , then they'll find the real me , but

57:58

they can't forget that part . Yeah

58:00

, that's so good .

58:02

I'm pretty sure that I am not the coolest Scott Carney

58:04

.

58:04

Yeah , I think you are . I definitely am .

58:08

Oh , thank you so much . Thank you so

58:10

much for coming out today and going through all

58:12

your successes Personally

58:14

and professionally . It's been an amazing ride

58:17

today Just listening to that stuff . I'm so happy for

58:19

you . It's awesome to see you . You make me smile

58:21

. Thanks , You're the best . We'll

58:23

definitely keep in touch .

58:25

Let me know when you want to talk live . Let's go through a 90

58:27

day challenge plan for you . I'll help you find a good

58:29

set list .

58:29

Absolutely . Thank you so

58:31

much for

58:36

being on .

58:36

There's a lot we can cover . It might be

58:38

multiple podcasts . Part six the saga continues . We've got a trilogy

58:40

going on , yeah .

58:41

Part six Part nine Part nine Part nine

58:43

Part nine Part nine Part nine Part

58:45

nine Part nine Part . Nine Part nine Part . Nine Part nine Part

58:48

. Nine Part nine .