1:24

And a guest today is Jessica Martin . She's

1:26

a lawyer by trade , a writer by choice and

1:28

a complete smartass . By all other accounts

1:30

that's a self-described complete smartass

1:32

, not my words . Based in the suburban wilds

1:34

of Boston , jess shares her life with a finance

1:37

geek , small sass-based human

1:39

and a pair of dogs named after James

1:41

Bond characters . She is currently an

1:43

amazing author who has now put out her

1:46

second book , and we're psyched

1:48

to have her here . Jessica Martin , welcome

1:50

to Cardi Saves the World . Well thank you , happy

1:52

to be here . Thank you so much for coming . So

1:54

you are like an author . That's crazy .

1:57

I'm like an author and like an attorney , both of us .

2:00

Every attorney I know has like just a crazy

2:02

life which I'm sure you do right Just like crazy

2:04

lost stuff going on , and then you

2:06

have time to write books and you're a mom .

2:08

And I'm a mom . I'm a girl mom and you as

2:10

a girl dad , I'm sure understand what it's like . Oh yeah

2:12

, of the drama and sass that comes along with being a girl

2:15

mom or a girl dad .

2:16

It's brutal , brutal

2:18

.

2:18

It's great . It's good practice for under

2:21

teens . How old ? How old is your daughter now

2:23

? Seven and a half .

2:24

Seven and a half . Okay , so I have a six and a half and

2:27

yeah there's just , it's a whole

2:29

. It's incredible . So I had I don't know

2:31

if this is gonna make the podcast , but I'll tell you the story

2:33

so a friend of mine came

2:35

down and we went during the day . We went to a couple breweries

2:37

I mean Wilmington , and Wilmington has a lot of breweries my

2:40

wife drove and my daughter was in the back seat . Well

2:42

, yeah , I had a couple beers and I had my phone out

2:44

and I was taking like selfie video when I was winking at her

2:46

and she's just like giving me the eye , just

2:48

stopped winking at her and she just picked her nose

2:50

and wiped it on my back .

2:54

I think that should probably be in the podcast . Yeah

2:56

, all right , like wait , shut things

2:58

down .

2:59

So what did you do that for ? She's like stop

3:01

recording me and stop making

3:03

fun of me . Wow .

3:06

I mean , you can't argue with her methods .

3:08

They were swift and effective , and you know I had

3:10

had a couple beers of me , so I get it , you

3:12

know . So so you're also

3:14

a lawyer . And what was

3:16

the genesis of becoming an author

3:18

on top of your already crazy life ?

3:20

Yeah , so I've been a writer my whole life . It started

3:23

in the fifth grade . There was a

3:25

ghost writing spooky contest and

3:27

the prize was this pumpkin , and I was like

3:29

I'm here for it . So I wrote my first

3:31

, my first spooky tale as a fifth grader

3:33

. I won that pumpkin .

3:35

Actually .

3:36

And then I went on to thank you . I went on to write

3:38

all through middle school , high school . In

3:40

college I minored in

3:42

creative writing . It's partially why I chose my

3:45

school is that they had a really good creative writing program

3:47

. And then when I got out of school I realized like

3:49

two things . One , writing is really

3:51

hard when you're learning writing

3:53

throughout the year , so you teach you how to write these beautifully

3:56

contained short stories . Nobody teaches

3:58

you how to write a novel or how to stick

4:00

with it or how to get a hundred thousand words down

4:02

on the page , and it doesn't make any money . So

4:04

I spent my . I spent my 20s and 30s

4:06

writing on the side . But I decided

4:09

to go to law school because I am a contract

4:11

negotiator by trade . I love writing

4:13

, I love negotiating . So every day I write

4:15

technically for my job and it's always

4:18

nice to kind of switch between the two , like turning

4:20

it off and putting on sort of a creative lens , and

4:22

then you know , turning that off and getting back into

4:24

being technical . So I write all the time

4:27

and I wrote sci-fi . I wrote sci-fi

4:29

fiction for about six , seven years , yeah

4:31

, and I was getting all these lovely rejection

4:33

letters which were like we love your writing

4:36

, but it's a tight market . We can't sell

4:38

it . And at some point this other idea

4:40

started to percolate and I thought how hard could

4:42

it be to write a rom-com ? The answer is it's challenging

4:44

. Right Switching from genre to genre ?

4:46

I would think so .

4:47

I have utmost respect for rom-com writers

4:49

. Right and miraculously , you

4:51

know , I finished this book . I couldn't believe how quickly

4:53

I finished this book and I started editing it . And

4:55

then I like to tell people I'm the only person on the

4:57

planet that ever found their agent via a

4:59

Twitter pitch . They used

5:01

to have these pre-COVID would have these

5:03

Twitter pitch contests and you would pitch

5:06

your book in whatever 146 characters

5:08

, whatever it is , and it was a very last like

5:10

pitching slot of the day and I was like you know , I'm gonna go for

5:12

it . I want to go for it on this . And that's how I found

5:15

my agent , maggie . She's in Boston and

5:17

we got in touch through the Twitter contest

5:19

and , you know , about three weeks later she'd

5:21

read the whole thing and she said I'm gonna sell this

5:23

in the next six months .

5:24

Really .

5:25

I was like , oh okay , maggie , and she did . She

5:27

sold it to Penguin in six months . So it was a whirlwind

5:30

to have written your whole life and had

5:32

no success , limited success . And then

5:34

all of a sudden , you know you meet the right person

5:36

, they open a door for you and you're on

5:38

your way to getting a book published .

5:39

That's amazing . That's a lot . So you said it didn't

5:41

take you that long to write what's not long

5:44

look like .

5:44

Yeah , about nine months . Soup

5:46

to nuts on sort of the writing and the first couple

5:49

passes of editing . I'm a

5:51

sort of avometer of words

5:53

, like I just I get everything out there and then you read

5:55

them and you're like that is something . So

5:58

you go back and you edit it and I spent

6:00

a lot more time in the editing phase . So

6:02

I would say you know about nine to 11

6:04

months and then I polished some more . When

6:07

I met Maggie we did a couple more rounds . So

6:09

maybe call it 12 to 13 months

6:11

to get it and then you do more editing with

6:13

your editor . How do you're editing House

6:15

of New York , mine's Penguin ? So I would say

6:17

15 , let's say 15 months all in between

6:19

their different iterations , but most of that was

6:21

editing .

6:22

That's amazing and I'm sorry I failed to mention

6:24

the name of the first book is For the Love of a Bard

6:26

. Yes , and so that came

6:29

out in 2022 ?

6:30

Yes , in June it was a summer release of Beatrice

6:33

.

6:33

And then you have a sequel to it that comes

6:35

out in 2023? .

6:37

Crazy . It's out , scott . It

6:39

was out on the 4th of July and it's called the Dane

6:41

of my Existence . We're keeping

6:43

with the Shakespearean puns here . Yes , so

6:45

that one came out , and it was nice to finally be a sophomore

6:47

. When your debut goes , you have

6:49

no idea what to expect . You talk to your writer

6:51

friends . So going through the second one was so

6:53

much easier . It was just so much chiller . I knew what

6:55

was coming . I knew what to expect . It was great

6:58

.

6:58

It's awesome . So can you give just

7:00

a slight synopsis for the listeners

7:02

? I guess both books , but break one . Break

7:05

the mech down .

7:06

Absolutely so , for the Love of the

7:08

Bard is the first in the series , and when

7:10

I came up with this idea for a rom-com , I

7:12

started with a place , and I grew up in Massachusetts

7:14

. I spent my summers in New Hampshire and so I

7:16

started to think about this town and these

7:18

quirky little towns that are all over New Hampshire and

7:21

I thought what if there was a Shakespearean obsessed

7:23

one ? How fun would that be if they had a Shakespeare

7:25

festival every year ? I'm an English nerd

7:27

, full disclosure . So that was kind of nerdy and fun

7:29

. And then I started to think , well , can't

7:32

just be a Shakespeare festival , right , they've

7:34

got to be all in on Shakespeare . So maybe

7:36

they have goofy little storefront names like

7:38

measure for measure hardware or

7:40

parting such sweet gelato . So then

7:42

I really started to have some fun with

7:45

this town . Once I had the town I started

7:47

to populate it and I decided I was going

7:49

to try to write a trilogy , because

7:51

rom-coms they're great when they sort of

7:53

carry on a couple in the series . It's one of my favorite

7:55

things about rom-coms . So the

7:57

first sister is Miranda Barnes . She is

7:59

a literary agent and a writer , and

8:02

she's the middle sister . She's the peacekeeper

8:04

. She's incredibly snarky despite that . But

8:06

she is sort of sandwiched between these two

8:08

larger than life personalities . So the first

8:10

book is really about her . She's coming

8:12

home , she meets an old ex-flame

8:15

who's now the town veterinarian , and you

8:17

know he's not living in his mom's basement

8:19

. He is a good-looking dude , saves

8:21

puppies for a living , and so really that first

8:24

right , who doesn't want a man who saves puppies

8:26

for a living ? So really that first book is about them

8:28

sort of getting over there not so great past

8:31

and they work together to put on this production

8:33

of 12th night for the festival . So

8:35

that's the first book . And then the second book is

8:37

Portia . And Portia is the eldest

8:40

barn sister and she hates

8:42

the town In a way . Miranda loves

8:44

Shakespeare . Portia has never understood

8:46

the hype about Shakespeare , absolutely looks down

8:48

on Shakespeare and just so happened

8:51

she gets this new lawyer gig . Portia's a lawyer , no

8:53

comment , and she's moving from

8:55

New York to Boston to take this job and she's taking

8:58

a summer sabbatical . So she

9:00

comes home to the town fish out of

9:02

water , doesn't really know what to do with herself , and

9:04

then quickly becomes embroiled . There's a real

9:06

estate developer in town and he's sniffing

9:09

around the town's best property and

9:11

, lo and behold , the town doesn't own it

9:13

, like everybody thought . So it sets up this nice

9:15

battles , enemies to lovers sort of the trope

9:17

that they talk about . But really I think it's rivals

9:20

, rivals to lovers , these two very

9:22

corporatey personalities square

9:24

enough for the future of the town . And

9:26

what I like about it is Portia is really a villain

9:28

in the first book and in this second book

9:30

she's the hero . So I thought that was really

9:33

fun writing Somebody you didn't care

9:35

for in the first book you really rooted against . Now

9:37

all of a sudden you're like ah , that's a bad

9:39

. So that is the premise of the

9:42

first and the second book .

9:43

So when you started writing the first book , did

9:45

you have a second book in mind , or

9:47

was the ? Did that kind of come organically later

9:50

on ?

9:50

I had them all planned out from the beginning

9:52

Three sisters , three books and I

9:54

started to think about side characters . So I

9:57

knew , when I was writing Portia as the villain in the first

9:59

book , that she would be my starring lady

10:01

in the second book . So I knew that and

10:03

I knew just , I was gonna no hold back , I was

10:05

gonna make her unlikable and then I was gonna flip the

10:07

tables on you , which is exactly what I did in the second

10:09

book .

10:10

So you have three books planned , but only two out . I

10:12

do Do tell .

10:14

Yes , for everybody keeping score . And

10:16

finally , the youngest , the youngest sister is

10:18

Cordy Cordelia , and

10:21

she is sort of the Spitfire

10:23

, firebrand . You never know what she's gonna do

10:25

. She's gonna burn the place down , she's gonna light

10:27

it up . She is the town

10:29

baker , she works at Much

10:32

Ado About Pastry and she is really

10:34

sort of the anchor of that family . But she is

10:36

definitely the wild child and she's probably the one

10:38

I identify the least with , who I love

10:40

the most but I don't identify with because I am not

10:42

a wild child . God , you've known me . Yes

10:45

, very good , very conservative , very rule

10:47

based . Yes , cordy is none of these things

10:49

. So writing her story , I think , has been the most challenging

10:52

.

10:52

Wow , that's awesome . Did you have this whole like

10:54

mapped out George Lucas , star Wars

10:56

trilogy thing going on ? Yes

10:59

, I like it , I like it . So

11:01

once you get a book out , then

11:03

what happens ?

11:04

Yeah , then the marketing begins . Then that's

11:06

sort of the dog and pony show of marketing

11:09

your book , helping find

11:11

its readers , its champions

11:13

. You do a lot of podcasts . You do some

11:15

book signings Not as much

11:17

as you think , I think . You get a lot more traction

11:19

now online , so you build

11:22

a social platform . I'm very active

11:24

on Instagram .

11:25

Yes .

11:25

I've not done the TikTok , I have not put my

11:27

toe on the TikTok .

11:28

I have it either . I'm scared . I'm scared , I'm

11:30

not there .

11:33

But yeah , you do those things to find your reader

11:35

, but Instagram , facebook

11:37

, facebook sells a lot of books . I found it for

11:39

my marketing team of two at Penguin , and

11:41

Facebook sells tons of books

11:43

. It's got an algorithm Instagram

11:45

, twitter . I generally stay off Twitter . I

11:47

tend to run my mouth , so Instagram

11:50

is sort of picture-based . Things are best for me .

11:52

Have you done the threads no ?

11:55

No , I looked into it and I just it feels

11:57

I'm going to use the word derivative .

11:59

Yeah , Do you thread ? I did just

12:01

, you know , to promote podcasts and I was like you know

12:03

, I'm just I'm asking for trouble , I'm going to get mouthy

12:06

and it's just , it's too instantaneous

12:08

.

12:08

Yes , it's too much for me , right ? Yeah , no

12:10

, I'm not threading .

12:12

Yeah , so you've done book signings . How , how

12:14

crazy is that ? Is that so people physically

12:16

came to a building buy your book

12:18

and then wait for you to physically

12:20

sign it ? That's like I know that's pretty

12:22

ego pumping right there .

12:24

It's epic , it's also , it's also ego draining

12:26

when you go to a signing and very few people show

12:29

up . So it's the . It's the highs and lows

12:31

of people showing up or not showing up . But

12:33

I will tell you I'm a lifelong reader and I can count

12:36

on the number on my one hand how

12:38

many times I've gone to a book signing . I

12:40

just didn't know that people did that yeah

12:42

. So , it's great that people come out that way , but normally

12:44

you try to make it good for them . You bring some bookmarks

12:47

and swag and then you do a reading

12:49

and people seem to really like that .

12:50

That's yeah , that's interesting . I'm sure it could turn

12:53

out like it could be just genuine fans

12:55

that are just awesome and just supportive

12:57

and want to just show their face . And then you might get like

12:59

do you think you get any ? Like , uh , hecklers

13:02

. But I was thinking more like you know , dorks that are like following

13:05

you around , like to every single book signing . Do you

13:07

have a wish ? I wish .

13:07

That would

13:10

be fun . In the book , everybody

13:12

who works at Shakespeare is called a bardolator

13:14

, and so I don't have many bardolators

13:17

. I get a lot of fun questions . I mean it's

13:19

amazing what people will ask out in public of

13:21

you , but I've gotten pretty seasoned . At this point

13:23

that no question is surprising . But everyone

13:25

said I'm like , oh , all right , that's cool . Um

13:27

, yeah , so no question seems to be a whole part

13:29

. But what everybody always wants to know is you know , is

13:32

Adam in the main characters ? Are they real

13:34

? Did you base them on people ? Um , that's

13:36

the big one I get , yeah , and then the other one I get

13:38

is how hard was it to write the sex scene

13:40

? I get that one all the time

13:42

.

13:43

Goodness gracious .

13:43

Goodness gracious is right , and I wrote an article

13:45

for writer's digest on it called how

13:48

to write a sex scene like nobody is watching . Um

13:50

, so I will send you the link to that . It's very

13:52

tongue in cheek . Yes , yeah , that's part

13:54

of the show notes . Yes , that's part of the expectation

13:56

is that you you write one Right . Most

13:58

rom-coms have them . Yeah , unless you're sort of in

14:00

the like a Christian genre , most of them have

14:03

them . So that was very nerve-wracking to

14:05

look anybody who'd read it in the eye after

14:07

that . And then I just got used to it . You

14:10

get used to it , scott .

14:12

I am very good friends with your husband , justin . Yes

14:14

, and I'm assuming that

14:16

he has read these books . What was his

14:18

take on the scenes ?

14:19

You know what I'm gonna out him right now ? He has not

14:22

read any of my books .

14:23

Shut up , I know , are you ?

14:24

serious . Oh , I'm so cathartic . Gourby

14:27

is not much of a reader , but I will say what he

14:29

is so supportive of is part of the reason I can

14:31

write these books is because we are like zone

14:33

parents , because he will take M for like

14:35

four hours so I can , and then I'll

14:37

pile it in and I'll take M so he can go off

14:39

and relax , and then we come together and do family night

14:41

. So I don't think I could write as

14:43

quickly as I do or as much as I do if I

14:45

didn't sort of have that kind of supportive partner .

14:47

Oh , that's good . Okay , but wow , he didn't read

14:50

like he didn't read them , but he checks

14:52

.

14:52

He checks to make sure he's in the dedications

14:54

and the acknowledgement . I'm like

14:56

who are you ?

14:59

That's when that one's tough . I mean , I

15:01

dropped my first episode . I like physically stood

15:03

and watched my wife download it . I was like

15:05

you , better hit that little arrow down Now now

15:07

.

15:09

I mean she talked into it , though she talked to you to

15:11

do it . I mean she should , she should definitely bear witness

15:13

. Yeah , yeah .

15:14

Well , she also technically named it for make a

15:16

fun of me for being , or attempting to be , smarter

15:18

than everybody .

15:19

Well , I like the name of it . I think it's brilliant . Thank you very

15:21

much . Thank you very much .

15:23

You talk about the questions . Do you have any crazy questions

15:25

that you can tell us that aren't like dirty ones ?

15:27

No , not like foul or dirty . Most of them

15:29

around the sex scene . You know like people giggle

15:31

now , like I just did . People

15:33

just want to know if they're real or like . They

15:35

go character by character . They're like is Miranda

15:38

real ? Is the dog real ? There's always going to

15:40

be a dog in my book , so people want to know if Puck and

15:42

Hamlet are real . So they're loosely

15:44

based on my rescue dog , but it's just , it's

15:46

kind of funny and it's even better when my friends

15:49

are in the audience , because a lot of my characters

15:51

are sort of snips and snatches of friends

15:53

and sort of make these amalgamations or I

15:55

just eavesdrop like the best place for me

15:57

is standing in a Starbucks behind teens

15:59

man . I pick up some of my best

16:02

lines standing behind teens and Starbucks

16:04

, but I think that's a big one . And then people will sometimes

16:06

ask like oh , did you ever think of doing this , this

16:08

and this with the plot ? And then you're like no , no

16:10

, I did not . That is actually brilliant . So then

16:13

you wonder like , can I take that idea ?

16:16

If you like . Oh , maybe I have to wait a few books until that person

16:18

forgets . They actually mentioned it to me , Exactly

16:20

.

16:21

Yes , and then people just have a lot of Shakespeare

16:23

questions and it's so interesting to

16:25

me because they're like oh , did you mean to embed

16:27

the Shakespeare thing here ? And a lot of the times

16:30

I think Shakespeare is just so the Quiddus in his

16:32

out there . That like you're like , yeah , okay

16:34

, I can , I can see how you would work Shakespeare into

16:36

that . So lots of good questions , lots of weird

16:38

ones .

16:40

It seems like there's like an actual like universe

16:42

created . You've created this universe of the

16:44

barred verse . The barred verse and it sounds

16:46

like the barred verse . Admittedly

17:06

, I have not read them either yet , but I intend on it . It

17:08

sounds like this barred verse could

17:10

possibly be translated to the

17:12

screen . Is that something that that

17:14

interests you , funny ?

17:15

you should say that , Scott . I'm specifically

17:18

forbidden from talking about that .

17:20

Okay .

17:21

But it would be lovely someday

17:23

to see barred on the small screen

17:25

or the big screen , and that is certainly the hope

17:27

for it . I think it naturally lends itself

17:29

to kind of a fan base in a universe

17:31

. It would look really good in a small

17:34

, we'll say hallmarky type movie . Look

17:36

really good .

17:37

You know it sounds like to me . In the interest of full

17:39

disclosure , I was and still

17:41

am a gigantic Gilmore

17:43

Girls fan . I don't care if anyone knows

17:45

, I'm not scared . Love it . It sounds

17:47

like a smarter juicier

17:50

. Gilmore Girls , hometown feel .

17:52

Okay , scott , I'm going to tell you this and I'm sure my

17:54

agent is going to be rolling here . So I've never seen

17:56

Gilmore Girls and all the

17:58

time people are like what

18:01

are you doing ? I was probably writing . People

18:03

are like this is like stars hollow . This

18:05

is stars hollow and I keep it's on

18:07

my list . Scott , I will watch it . I swear

18:10

when my kid is like a teen , but

18:12

I get that all the time and I'm so

18:14

flattered by it . I've never seen an episode .

18:16

I can't even close my mouth . I can't even close my mouth

18:18

. I'm shocked .

18:19

I will , though . I will , though , because I love those two

18:21

actresses . I would love to watch that show . I'm

18:23

not a huge TV watcher , I'm more of a sports fan . I'm

18:25

like a socks fan and a Patriots fan , so , like , when

18:27

I watch TV , it's usually sports .

18:29

Well , I didn't watch it when it first came out . I like I

18:31

might have caught it on lifetime , but

18:34

I watched every episode . Fantastic . But

18:36

yeah , I mean it's . You know these characters seem

18:38

so developed and you've got like little offshoots

18:41

going in different directions . You know you've got

18:43

material for multi story involvement .

18:45

Yes , yes , the Anselary Care , I think when

18:47

you're writing Rom Carm or reading it and this is I went

18:49

to Rom Carm from sci-fi what I love about

18:52

sci-fi is the world building . I love , like

18:54

, the universe , the lands , like I think about my

18:56

two favorite authors , jim Butcher , sean

18:58

McGuire . They have written the you know , wizard

19:00

in Chicago , private Eye in San Francisco

19:03

dozens of books and just you fall in

19:05

love with the Anselary characters . You want to know what happens

19:07

to them , like in the offseason , when you're waiting 11

19:09

months for that book , you're like I wonder what they're doing

19:11

right now . That

19:14

is what I love about sci-fi and I've

19:16

tried to keep that in with the Rom Carm , this

19:18

small town vibe where you fall in love with the characters

19:20

, but not just the main ones , but sort of the Anselary

19:23

ones , and they grow with you .

19:24

So is this going to be a side

19:27

profession for the long term

19:29

, or what's your ultimate

19:31

goal ? What would you like to have happen ?

19:33

I want to keep writing books . I have a couple other

19:35

projects non Shakespearean projects

19:37

in the tank that I'm hoping you know

19:40

that we see . Sometime we'll see the

19:42

light of day . But I do love

19:44

being a lawyer and apparently I'm stuck

19:46

being a parent until MS-18 . So I

19:48

think that will that writing will have to stay the

19:50

side gig unless I hit the you know New York Times

19:52

list and then I'll come back on the show Scott

19:55

. We'll dish about that .

19:56

Oh , my God that'd be awesome that

19:58

would be awesome . I get downloads like crazy

20:00

. I'd be so excited . I'll do my best . You know

20:02

I might have bragged on one of my previous episodes , but

20:04

I'm pretty popular

20:07

globally now . Excellent , I have

20:09

seven downloads from Zambia

20:11

. Zambia , I believe it's a country in Africa . I'm not

20:13

100% sure , but seven yes .

20:16

We should check that . I mean , you have a fan base growing now

20:18

. We should definitely check that .

20:19

Yes , I'll take this time to say hi to

20:21

my fans out in Zambia . Hi , Zambianians

20:23

. Zambianians , Well

20:27

, yeah , Zambia . A couple downloads

20:29

from Tokyo , the Philippines . I

20:31

got one from Thailand . I think

20:33

it's just like one person circumnavigating

20:36

the globe .

20:37

Hey , I'm just going to show you some short here . Yeah , this

20:39

is so interesting . It's cool that you can see where they're

20:41

from too . I think that's so interesting . You're

20:43

like oh , I'm building like a global network here .

20:46

Yeah , yeah , you can't see like you know who from

20:48

you know an IP standpoint , you just see just

20:50

general cities . But yeah , like Zambia

20:52

is like it's , I'm pretty huge . I'm

20:54

like the David Hasselhoff of Zambia .

20:56

Oh , that is a great reference . Excellent

20:59

, that's what I will think of when I think of you now

21:01

, scott , the David

21:03

Hasselhoff oh no , I'm going to think of it as podcasts

21:05

. I'm going big here , so you can be the David , you can be the half

21:08

of a podcast here .

21:09

Yeah , gosh , I was like passed out on the floor Reference

21:13

some of the kids out there won't get , but

21:15

so you've got these other

21:17

things in the tank Are they rom-com

21:19

, or are they different genres

21:22

?

21:22

Yeah , so they're different genres still in the rom-com

21:24

, but one would be speculative fiction and

21:26

so people always like glaze over and you say that , but

21:29

basically it's taking a sci-fi

21:31

element or a supernatural element

21:33

and dropping it into a rom-com . The ones that

21:35

people are really familiar with are sort of witchy

21:38

, paranormal rom-coms or

21:40

how to date your werewolf and those kind of things

21:42

, and I actually find those very fun

21:45

to read . I love me a good

21:47

. It's a vampire , it's a werewolf , it's a witch . I

21:49

love those stories . So I've got one of those in

21:51

the tank . And the speculative fiction

21:53

is a little bit more a cerebral

21:56

, dealing with sort of the afterlife

21:58

and seeing if there's something there that will

22:00

stick . But would love to write more

22:02

Bard books and I have a couple , as

22:04

I said , a couple of other ideas . But it's always

22:06

interesting to sort of see what the publishing trends are

22:08

and what your publishing house will buy from you .

22:11

So what do you have time to write ? Do you just set

22:13

time aside or do you just all of a sudden you're like I gotta

22:15

go right now ? I ? Have something I need to put down

22:17

on paper .

22:18

Yeah , it's definitely not like IBS . I'm

22:20

definitely

22:24

a planner . Yeah , you

22:26

have to be . You have to like stay intact , and

22:28

I actually find it very helpful to have deadlines

22:31

. So I know , if I have something to do with

22:33

my editor , I will work back and

22:35

plot from there . What I don't plan is sort

22:37

of the spontaneous writing oh my gosh

22:39

, I just gotta get it down . That's a lot more

22:41

spontaneous . But editing I will meticulously

22:43

plan out because I like to edit and sort

22:45

of I'm super OCD . We're talking about how

22:48

you edit podcasts . I edit mine

22:50

in like chunks of three chapters because I want

22:52

to be consistent and once I got three

22:54

, then I go three plus three and then three plus nine

22:56

and I like it to be consistent throughout

22:58

. So you know the editing is I try to

23:00

be more meticulous and methodical about that and

23:02

that's just do that primarily

23:04

at night . There's an entire culture

23:06

of writers who get up and there's the 5am

23:09

writing club and I cannot think of anything

23:12

other than exercising . I would like to do less

23:14

at five in the morning . I just I

23:16

can't think of anything . I'm like wow , I'm

23:18

so impressed by people who can do that , but I'm a night

23:20

owl and I'm definitely like a weekend

23:23

writer . I will skip chores

23:25

, you know , skip all the fun stuff at home , and I

23:27

will . I will write my own edit .

23:28

So what is the editing process kind of

23:30

look like ?

23:32

How do you ?

23:32

edit , or what are you looking for when you edit

23:34

?

23:34

Oh , it's a lot of self doubt . I use

23:36

that terrible software and word and I actually

23:39

read every chapter out loud

23:41

. I have the female sort of robotic

23:43

voice , because for me , and particularly

23:45

in romcoms , it's getting the dialogue

23:47

right and you're listening to it being

23:50

like , oh , it's perfect . You're like , oh , nobody

23:52

in the right mind actually talks like that . So like hit

23:54

, pause , clean it up . And

23:56

then it's sort of it's also a logistical thing

23:58

of like if you said this in the last

24:01

chapter but it's different , in chapter

24:03

eight you got a problem so you got to be careful

24:05

, I think , on logistics . So it's the continuity

24:07

piece , it's pacing , it's making sure your

24:09

characters are staying in their characters and

24:11

not taking on other character attributes

24:13

. So it's really that like crisp

24:15

sort of cleaning process and that

24:18

audio I'm waiting for . The neighbor Microsoft Word

24:20

like decides to hire , like a Clooney

24:22

or Julia Roberts or somebody established , and

24:25

they do the voice like I would pay extra

24:27

for that .

24:28

Maybe I could pull that off Now I could .

24:30

I would download that better than the Zion

24:32

or Zaya , whatever it is on Microsoft Word

24:34

. It's atrocious , but it's so helpful

24:37

to hear it . You catch more mistakes that

24:39

way .

24:39

Yeah , have you caught something that was

24:41

you know from a continuity standpoint ? Have you

24:43

caught something you know , listening to it , that you

24:45

were like wait a minute , I just could have sworn . I heard that

24:47

.

24:48

Oh yes . Or at one point I was referring to , like

24:50

the bakery is the coffee shop and I was like this

24:52

will not do . It did not morph into

24:54

a coffee , oh yeah .

24:55

Because you think about .

24:56

You're writing over like a nine month span , like things

24:59

are going to get messed up . So I keep notes

25:01

too , of like , if you said the characters

25:04

eyes were icy , then they're not Robin's

25:06

egg blue , right , because that's more rewarding

25:08

flavor . So it's trying to keep that stuff

25:10

. And then , when you know , when I picked up the second book

25:12

, I went back and read all my notes on the first book

25:14

to make sure that I did not contradict

25:16

anything I had said in the first book and the second book

25:18

. You know , I think from doing the podcast

25:21

.

25:21

I think that that folks

25:23

appreciate that the editing that goes on behind

25:25

the scenes so much more than they realize

25:28

. You know we were talking earlier

25:30

about like from my standpoint of editing

25:32

. And when I edit I'm pulling ums and ahs

25:35

and that stuff kind of out because I don't

25:37

want to listen to them . I know other people probably

25:39

don't want to , but that's how people talk um

25:41

, um , right there . But

25:43

it shortens and condenses

25:46

the ideas . It's a lot easier to

25:48

grasp the whole story when you're

25:50

not listening to a mom all the time and

25:52

it's probably the same thing when you know you're going through and

25:55

meticulously pulling stuff out and putting

25:57

stuff in after the fact .

25:58

Yes , definitely . And then you get to this you

26:00

send it to your editor . So you're , my agent

26:02

will often edit , my editor will edit

26:04

. In your editing house you have this gloriously

26:07

anal , retentive copywriter who you never

26:09

meet . They prefer to stay anonymous and

26:11

they go through your book and they may

26:13

say something like this subway station

26:15

you mentioned does not exist . Did you mean

26:17

this ? You know you're referencing something they're like

26:20

well , Ravens weren't really prevalent in the Northeast

26:22

in the 1850s . Like perhaps

26:24

you meant the common man guy .

26:25

Oh , my God it is so great .

26:27

I feel like there's a book to be written about copy editors

26:30

. They are the people who save your book . Or if it's

26:32

four pm on one page and they're like

26:34

I'm sorry , it's now 2 pm in the next page

26:36

, they will catch stuff you miss . So they

26:38

are my favorite people

26:40

, but very secluded in mystery in this whole

26:42

process . Wow .

26:44

So what are the stages ? So you're writing

26:46

, you have to turn over , you know , x amount of pages

26:48

or X amount of chapters to your , your agent or your

26:50

editor . How does that whole process work ?

26:52

Yeah , it's usually drafts . So it's your , you know

26:54

, final draft , a polished draft . Then you get your editorial

26:56

draft . You get comments back , then you get your copy

26:59

, copy editing , sort of your final they

27:01

call it the final manuscript setting

27:03

. So it's your last shot to really go back

27:05

and read it all together . So by

27:08

the time you've , you know , reviewed it , you're

27:10

really , really sick of every word . You've

27:12

written every single word . Everything that

27:14

like sparkled for you in the beginning you were tired

27:16

of . That's great . That's not how you know you're done .

27:19

First book comes out 2022 . Second

27:22

book comes out 2023 . Did you just blow

27:24

through that , like you were like I know exactly what

27:26

I'm going to write , I know exactly , and you just flew right

27:28

through that one to get it to the press .

27:29

Yes , I mean I had so much more

27:32

of an idea because once that first book is out

27:34

it almost like it wrote the second book . And

27:36

also you know you have your whole outline to

27:38

your agent and to your editor and they weigh

27:40

in . So you're like , yeah , this is the plot

27:42

, I want , this is the storyline , I want this is the plot

27:45

. So it goes so much faster . And just

27:47

that confidence of , okay , that first

27:49

book is out in the world and you haven't been laughed

27:51

out of sort of every book story you've been in , so

27:53

it just feels that vote of confidence to like

27:55

get the second one out . It was so much easier .

27:57

How many bookstores have you been in ?

28:00

Oh man , I don't even know how to quantify

28:02

that , because I'm a book nerd . I've been in a lot

28:04

of bookstores , Scott .

28:06

Well , how many ? All right , let me be more specific

28:08

. How many bookstores have you been in to

28:11

do readings , or to pitch , or to do any sort

28:13

of marketing for your ?

28:15

Maybe a dozen , which I know it doesn't

28:17

marketing to . I mean , I

28:19

visited . So I visited close to 30

28:21

bookstores for my first book to get the word

28:23

out . So I and I've done signings

28:26

. I'm doing a book club at one . Book

28:28

clubs are another trippy thing that you

28:30

can do at bookstores . You can do in people's

28:32

homes and are super fun . But yeah , I

28:34

go to a lot of bookstores just to

28:36

kind of pound the pavement , especially when I was

28:38

a debut , to be like hey , I'm a local author

28:41

, I'm running Shakespeare and Rome . Comes , here's my postcard

28:43

and like my contact info . So I

28:45

think it's important , like you , go see your indie

28:48

bookstores . I have huge amount of what I've worked

28:50

in indie bookstores and I've worked at Barnes and Noble

28:52

and I have loves for both

28:54

of them . I don't play favorites books or books for me

28:56

, anything that has a book in the window . I will go

28:58

in and see if they have my book and then

29:00

offer to sign it . Like the first couple of days must

29:02

be so embarrassing . You go in there and there's this like 18

29:05

year old booksell and you're like hey , that's my

29:07

book on the shelf . Would you like me to sign it ? I'm

29:09

the author . And then you show them the back cover where

29:11

my face is , as if some random

29:13

person would try to sign a book that is not

29:15

theirs , but it just it always felt legitimate to be like

29:17

that's me , so

29:20

now I don't do that . A lot more

29:22

chill and I was in . My first book came out

29:24

, but yeah , it was just a big moment for me . You see your

29:26

book in print .

29:27

Absolutely is Absolutely . Do you ever go

29:29

into bookstores and just randomly sign

29:31

some books ?

29:32

My books yeah .

29:34

Yeah Well , yeah , sometimes

29:36

I like to go into the bookstore and sign the Bible .

29:38

That's right . I mean , surprise , I

29:40

had books or like the crossword puzzles or

29:42

like sign them , love , love , mark . Yeah

29:44

, no , normally I announce myself because I just want

29:46

to make sure they would like you to sign the books . But

29:49

most people are like very sweet about it and then I

29:51

usually stick like stick a sticker on it , like

29:53

ooh , signed by the author . And I always wonder if that

29:55

actually encourages people to buy books

29:57

or not , because I certainly don't pick books based

30:00

on whether somebody signed them or not . But you know , maybe

30:02

it's cool .

30:02

I would buy a book that was signed by the author . Yeah , because

30:04

you're getting it for the same price . It's like free autograph

30:07

.

30:07

Yeah , I wouldn't buy the plain one sitting next to it . I would

30:09

take the autograph copy , but I don't know that I would go into

30:11

it . If someone was like , oh , we have all these signed copies

30:13

of like fourth wing right , that book that's everybody's

30:16

reading right now , I don't know if I would go in and get one . I

30:18

don't know if I would make like a separate trip for it , but if it was

30:20

there I would tell you that .

30:21

Yeah , I would be worried also about autographing

30:23

the book and like screwing up my name , missing

30:25

a letter or something .

30:27

That's right Recursive and you just kind of get

30:29

like right early about it .

30:32

Sometimes I forget to cross my t's . It's weird .

30:34

It's when people spell names for me . They're like

30:36

, oh , can you make it out to like

30:38

Samantha ? And there's an effinite . You're like

30:40

, oh my God , could you just spell that for me

30:42

? That's that's

30:44

. What's hard is that you're going to mess up somebody's

30:46

dedication . But yeah , I do really get my name right

30:48

. It's the dedication that frighten me sometimes . I

30:50

want to sign some stuff .

30:52

I'm looking around my

30:54

little studio here and see what I can sign

30:56

.

30:56

Sign .

30:57

Yeah , so you mentioned that your husband has

30:59

not read your books .

31:00

Yes , oh , he's going to hate this podcast

31:02

.

31:02

God , I just can't get that out of my head . I'm

31:05

only doing it because I know I think it's funny to just keep

31:07

grinding it in . We'll have everybody like comment

31:09

on oh yeah , I don't know why you wouldn't read the book

31:11

.

31:11

Yeah , oh yeah , we're going to , we're going to out him right

31:14

here . What better way to do it , scott , yeah

31:16

, yeah , I assume your daughter

31:18

obviously has not read the book .

31:20

But what does your daughter think of this whole ?

31:21

thing . She thinks my books are very boring because

31:23

they don't have pictures in them . Well , obviously she's in a graphic

31:25

novel stage . Yeah , graphic novels , by

31:27

the way , are so much cooler than when we were kids . Yeah

31:29

, and she is in this graphic novel stage . So

31:31

if it does not have like vibrant pictures , she

31:34

has no time for it . She's like who writes pictures

31:36

without books and who reads these ? I said

31:38

adult adults . But

31:40

maybe someday she'll get a kick out of it .

31:42

That's awesome . Yeah , I mean , that's just just a cool thing

31:44

to have the book like in the house and she

31:46

sees it and she's like , wow , mommy did that . That's an awesome

31:48

, awesome thing .

31:49

Can I tell you what the coolest part of this whole experience

31:51

has been ? I love talking about this . So my

31:53

biggest day as an author when it was like real was

31:55

when they sent me the audition tapes for the narrator

31:58

. I'm a huge audible person , like

32:00

an audio person .

32:01

Oh yeah .

32:01

And it was so cool to get a vote . Like

32:03

Penguin sends you all these like samples

32:06

and I got to weigh in , I got to have a vote

32:08

and they went with the woman that I picked and

32:10

she's an actress , she's out in California , she's doing

32:12

the second book . It was wild because

32:14

then you hear your book and

32:16

you're like , wow , I wrote that

32:18

. So when people ask me like you know what's the coolest

32:20

part of this ? The close second is getting to

32:23

like have a vote on your cover . But for me , my

32:25

first love was getting to hear who

32:27

would read it , so that's been my coolest

32:29

part .

32:30

But when you think of that concept , like someone is being

32:32

paid to read the words that you

32:34

wrote , that you got paid for I know it's a

32:36

systemic just keeps perpetuating

32:38

.

32:38

We're paying in everybody crazy .

32:41

Well , you mentioned the book covers . How does that process work

32:43

, whether it were book covers chosen and who

32:46

creates them ?

32:47

And so they had picked out an

32:49

artist that they were super jazzed about

32:51

. Her name is Flora Fuentes and she is

32:53

incredible . She's a designer . She's a

32:55

graphic designer out of Buenos Aires and I

32:57

just was . I was her first book cover and

32:59

I was so honored because they asked they

33:01

gave her the book . And then they asked me to sort of suggest

33:03

if I had any thoughts about the cover at a couple

33:05

, but none of them very good , and she just

33:08

brought them to life and I thought , oh

33:10

, my goodness , this is what they look like . So I begged

33:12

and pleaded that she would do the second cover and I just

33:14

love them . They're really vibrant , they're really fun

33:16

. I love the colors , but I'm

33:18

not artistically inclined that way . So

33:20

the cover thing was more intimidating . I'm so glad

33:22

she's so talented . She figured it out . The Audible

33:25

narrator was more at my alley , which was like I like

33:27

to listen to books , so I

33:29

felt like more of a voice and I

33:31

like to stand on there to be like I love this person

33:33

.

33:34

I'm looking at both books now and I like

33:36

the way that she kind of color

33:38

flipped them . That's a really cool thing

33:40

because it shows that connectivity

33:42

and very cool concept . I like that .

33:44

Yeah , I love them .

33:45

So , jess , when I did my podcast

33:48

research and I put into Google

33:50

Jessica Martin , author , it also

33:52

Google gives you suggestions . Oh and

33:55

yes , I don't know if you've seen this and it says

33:57

people also have searched for

33:59

and look at the company you're in Nora

34:01

Roberts , whoa , danielle Steele

34:03

, bk

34:06

Bunsen I have no idea who that is . Who

34:08

is ?

34:08

BK Bunsen , I will look this up .

34:11

But Danielle Steele , whoa and Ellie

34:13

Everhart . Let's see what BK Bunsen has done . Oh well , she's

34:16

an Amazon bestselling author , so right

34:18

there . Oh , she's done some competitive

34:20

romcom books as well . Oh , you can't really see it in my

34:22

point of flip around . But yeah , she's done some other

34:24

books , but they obviously are not

34:26

anywhere near yours , so we'll

34:29

get rid of her .

34:29

That's so fun , so I don't . I subscribe

34:32

to be like . I don't Google myself . I never

34:34

go on Goodreads to see what Goodreads

34:36

is like a savage place , really

34:38

. Yeah , I set up Google alerts and

34:41

I you know I mostly find like my

34:43

diehard fans are on Instagram . So like I will

34:45

search the hashtag of the title and

34:47

people like people do great stuff on Instagram

34:49

with your book . They like pose it on the beach and like

34:51

with , like beads and coffee and tea and you're

34:53

like that is gorgeous .

34:55

It's awesome .

34:56

And sometimes they read the book or sometimes they're just

34:58

people kind of work with covers , they're like visual

35:00

artists . So I absolutely love that . But yeah

35:02

, I generally stay off the internet . I stay

35:04

off the reviews . I generally wait for my agent

35:06

to tell me if it's a good review or not . They generally

35:08

critically they've done pretty well . But yeah , it's just , it's

35:11

your writing . You can feel kind of like protective

35:13

of it . So I just their places , their dark

35:15

places on the internet I tend to stay out of

35:17

.

35:18

So I'm on Goodreads right now . Yeah , I don't mean to put you on

35:20

the spot . Can I read one of the reviews that it's

35:22

?

35:22

Yes , only with the good ones . If it's like

35:24

I wish , the puppies would drown in this one and then

35:27

don't read those ones . The puppies would drown .

35:28

Oh good Lord . Oh Puck , that's

35:31

the name of the puppy , not not ? Well , you obviously don't . But

35:33

for the listeners , it's not that I didn't want

35:35

to say fuck , because I could say it's my podcast

35:38

, I'll say whatever .

35:38

Oh yeah , no , Puck is in the first , puck

35:40

, yeah , puck in the first , fucking Hamlet in the second

35:43

.

35:43

So this is Jessica's writing

35:45

flows brilliantly . It just feels

35:47

she's writing from a place where her husband hasn't

35:50

read both books yet .

35:51

Oh , wonderful .

35:52

I'm gonna frame that one .

35:54

Yeah , she writes

35:56

uninhibited as if her husband isn't watching

35:58

.

35:58

I want to check that one out .

36:02

Oh man , what are you going to call ? I feel

36:04

like we have to somehow title this episode . Gourby

36:06

doesn't read rom-toms , or something

36:09

fun .

36:09

So here's the thing on my podcast . So they

36:11

just convert , they just change over to AI , which

36:13

scares the shit out of me . Like somehow I feel

36:15

that because I'm having AI do my podcast

36:18

synopsis , that it's going to trigger

36:20

World War Three . I feel like I'm going to

36:22

be part of it . I don't . Oh , I see . Yeah , it kind

36:24

of crunches everything and if you

36:27

keep harping on a subject it may pick

36:29

it up . So if it does become one

36:31

of the title suggestions , I'll let you know .

36:33

Oh yeah , absolutely I'm not going to be the

36:35

friend discount and you can sort of work it into

36:37

a title because that will be immortal and

36:39

legend in our house .

36:40

So yeah

36:42

, I'll screenshot it and you can make it your

36:44

background on Facebook . Excellent . Well , Jess , this

36:47

has been awesome . Thank you so much for taking the time out of your

36:49

insanely busy schedule as a lawyer

36:51

, mom , wife , world bestselling author

36:53

to sit down and chat with me today .

36:55

Well , thank you , Scott . This was so fun . I really enjoyed

36:57

it . Thanks for having me .

36:58

Where can people buy the books ?

36:59

You can buy books wherever they are sold . Support

37:02

your local indie . Go into a Barnes and Noble , go

37:04

on Amazon Anywhere you can access

37:06

books , gay for you , or your library . I

37:08

used to be a teacher's aid library and I am a huge

37:10

promoter of your local library and a lot of libraries

37:13

have it . So go find it . And you can

37:15

find me on Instagram at C Jess write

37:17

books You're a creative . And you can

37:19

find me at Jessica Martin bookscom .

37:21

Awesome . I'll put those both the show notes . Folks

37:23

, if you are all my listeners in Zambia

37:26

, amazon will deliver to you . We'll get it there . But

37:28

everybody , please check these books out . They sound

37:30

amazing . I can't wait to check them out myself . I

37:32

have massive ADD and it's really hard to read a full

37:35

book , but maybe I will just get the audio book right

37:37

.

37:37

You can listen to it , yes , but not with your daughter in

37:39

the car . Oh , okay .

37:41

Oops , oops

37:43

, honey , earmuffs , quick , quick

37:45

.

37:45

It is a romcom and like 90%

37:48

of it is family friendly and then 10% of it is not

37:50

. You'll figure it out .

37:52

We'll get there . We'll get there . But , yeah , thank you

37:54

again for taking the time . This has been great . Everybody

37:57

, please go check out all her social media

37:59

stuff and pick up both books

38:01

for the love of the Bard , and the second

38:03

one , the even more salacious . I

38:05

think that , yeah , definitely Is it salacious , even the more

38:07

salacious one the day of my existence

38:09

. Thanks again , this has been fantastic

38:12

. I wish you the best of luck . Thanks , I can't wait

38:14

to possibly see these on screen as

38:16

well , but we'll see .

38:18

We'll see , we'll see what the future holds , and I

38:20

don't recall .

38:20

I did a fair amount of acting . So

38:22

you know , if you've got some clout and there's an old

38:25

crabby man in your books , I'm

38:27

your man . Well , thanks , scott , take

38:29

care . Thank you so much , thank you .

38:32

I mean , you look official , so you're in

38:34

.

38:34

I'm going to let you know a little secret these headphones aren't

38:36

even plugged in . Not

38:39

even plugged in , excellent , just for

38:41

effect , just for show . No , they're plugged in

38:43

.