0:02

Everybody welcome to another episode of Carry On

0:05

Friends , the Caribbean American podcast

0:07

. I'm excited to have my next guest here

0:09

. Yes , I know I say it all the time , but trust

0:11

me , they have a very

0:14

interesting story to tell . And

0:17

so , Marcus , welcome to

0:19

the podcast . How are you ?

0:20

I am excellent . Thank you very much for

0:22

having me .

0:23

All right , all right . So

0:25

why don't you tell the community of friends a little bit about who you are

0:28

Caribbean country , your present and

0:30

the work you do ?

0:32

Excellent . My name is Marcus Haynes . I

0:34

am an entrepreneur here in New York City

0:36

, in Brooklyn specifically , and

0:39

I started a human resources

0:41

consulting firm going on 17

0:43

years here in New York and

0:46

so far so good . It's still surviving

0:49

and thriving , despite the

0:51

market conditions the last couple of years

0:53

. My background

0:55

is really interesting because I was actually born here

0:58

in Brooklyn , not

1:00

too far from where I'm currently living , but

1:03

my parents are from the Caribbean . My

1:06

father was from Guyana and

1:08

my mother was from St Kitts , and

1:11

when I was very young and

1:14

my brother was very young , they decided to move

1:16

us to Africa , so that's where I spend

1:18

most of my childhood .

1:19

Wow , all right . So

1:21

that's how I was introduced to Marcus

1:24

was through Rafael Harry . Yeah , it was

1:26

on his podcast called White Label American

1:28

, and one

1:30

of the questions Rafael asked me was about my

1:32

experience going off to college and

1:34

, based on my answer in the middle of the interview

1:37

, he says I think you should meet Marcus because

1:39

he said the same exact thing and

1:42

the engineer was nodding . And

1:45

so that experience was , you know

1:47

, when I went off to college , this beer

1:49

drinking culture , or just

1:51

alcohol culture , was just a very

1:53

new

1:55

and weird experience

1:57

because it

2:00

was very odd seeing

2:02

peers get

2:04

so wild and crazy over alcohol . It's

2:07

almost as if , as we say in Jamaica

2:09

or maybe the Caribbean , never see , come

2:11

see . And it was just like what

2:14

is going on and they would collect

2:16

beer cans and stack them in the window

2:19

or absolute bottles . And

2:22

I couldn't understand this , because you come

2:24

from a Caribbean culture where if

2:27

the buckle empty , dash it way and

2:30

if it's not being used for something

2:32

else , because you know we repurpose everything

2:34

, right , absolutely . So

2:37

if you're not repurposing the bottle , why are we

2:39

putting up the empty buckle , which is basically

2:41

garbage , on display

2:43

right ? For what ? For

2:45

what purpose ? So I was sharing like this was

2:48

just very odd . The drinking culture

2:50

and you know that I grew up around

2:52

alcohol . You know when

2:55

the adults had parties , you get

2:57

the liquor , you're probably pour out the liquor

2:59

, but you dare not touch the liquor . But

3:02

at the same time there wasn't a need

3:04

for me to feel like I needed

3:06

to drink alcohol . It was , I

3:08

don't know . And so Rafael

3:10

basically said you had a similar experience

3:12

when you went to college . So I

3:15

did . I'm just telling the audience

3:17

that's how we met . But before we get to that college

3:19

experience , tell us what it was

3:21

like growing up , basically

3:25

in Africa . So tell us

3:27

a little bit about that experience

3:29

.

3:31

It was , it

3:33

was all that I knew . It

3:35

was home , it's

3:38

. You know , people asked me that

3:40

question over the years and

3:42

they asked me well , was it strange

3:44

and was it difficult to adjust ? I

3:46

mean , it was all I knew , because I was

3:48

four years old when I moved there and

3:51

it was all that I became familiar with . And

3:54

it was interesting because I would

3:56

travel periodically , almost yearly , back

3:59

to the Caribbean to visit relatives and back

4:02

to North America because , that's , a lot of our relatives

4:05

resided here as well and

4:08

that seemed foreign . You know , coming back

4:10

here seemed very foreign and

4:13

it was . It was eye-opening and jarring

4:15

how different it was , both

4:18

good and bad . But

4:21

that , that was my , that was

4:23

home . And even though I

4:26

loved growing up there and I've

4:29

actually grown to appreciate it more now as

4:31

an adult , since I've left there , I

4:33

still connect more with my

4:36

Caribbean heritage because

4:39

of the way my parents were

4:41

, their traditions

4:43

, their way of communicating

4:45

, their way of raising us , by

4:48

interaction with the relatives . It's

4:52

, it was . It was pretty unique and

4:54

I really appreciate the fact that they had

4:56

such strong morals

4:58

and values and traditions .

5:00

What was the first African country you moved

5:02

to or your

5:04

parents moved you to ? I lived

5:06

in Zambia first . Wow , and

5:09

how long were you in Zambia before you were off

5:11

to the next country ?

5:12

It was almost 11 years . It

5:15

was almost 11 years .

5:18

And I guess your parents are diplomats or

5:20

like what took them to Africa

5:22

? Or was it something other than

5:24

and forgive my assumption and

5:27

presumptuousness , because

5:29

not all people are

5:32

diplomats , which is why they travel . But

5:34

given that this was years ago , that's

5:36

typically the most common way

5:39

or common reasons why

5:41

parents were traveling . But

5:43

if you tell me a little bit more about your parents background

5:46

, that will help set the context

5:48

for the audience .

5:50

No , that's a valid assumption and that's exactly

5:52

what it was . But my father

5:54

? It was my father's dream to

5:56

move to Africa . My father was , I

5:59

guess , a

6:01

supporter of the Pan-Africanist movement

6:03

. He was a

6:05

big supporter and follower

6:07

of Malcolm X and Marcus Garvey

6:10

and that's how

6:12

he came up with my names . He

6:15

was naming me after Marcus Garvey

6:17

and Malcolm X and

6:20

he always believed in going back to Africa and

6:22

repatriation and , I

6:25

guess , not raising

6:27

his children in

6:30

North America . He

6:32

was always very committed

6:34

to that goal and

6:36

he was a professor , he was a

6:38

PhD in living linguistics and

6:42

when he first moved to Africa that was his

6:44

career before he joined the United

6:46

Nations and that was the career

6:49

that he stayed in for the

6:51

duration of our time there .

6:53

Wow , that's really amazing . So

6:56

the other question that I wanted to

6:58

ask you and you touched on was , as

7:01

you have all these

7:03

different cultures because your

7:06

parents , they are Caribbean in culture

7:09

, but still countries have different

7:11

variations of a culture , so

7:13

you have San Quetzalana

7:15

and then the Caribbean

7:17

collectively , and you

7:19

were too young to probably have too much

7:22

of an American culture , but you

7:24

could say that America

7:26

was in there . And then now you go

7:28

to Africa , zambia . How were your parents

7:31

able to maintain

7:33

that Caribbean tradition

7:36

and connection while also

7:38

allowing you to experience

7:41

Africa ?

7:42

Fortunately there weren't

7:44

major differences in terms of

7:46

philosophy , mindsets

7:49

, community , so

7:52

I think that helped

7:54

to kind of facilitate that

7:57

development and maintenance

8:00

, maintaining our

8:03

culture and tradition . So

8:05

it wasn't that foreign . I think that was what

8:08

really made it almost

8:10

seamless , because

8:12

the way they raised us , the

8:14

kind of morals and values and traditions

8:16

they wanted to raise us with , weren't

8:19

that different from the

8:21

environment they were actually in .

8:23

That makes sense Because

8:26

, again , you know , when we all

8:28

come together we just call things different

8:30

names , yes , but

8:32

we kind of have similar

8:36

, I guess , like you said , experiences

8:38

because we came from Africa

8:40

, or most of the Caribbean have a very

8:43

heavy African influence , exactly

8:45

so you went to Zambia

8:47

, and where else did you live while you

8:49

were in Africa ?

8:51

I lived in Kenya for a brief time before

8:53

we moved to South Africa , and

8:56

I spent another almost four years there

8:58

. That's where I graduated from high school .

9:00

And so what was high school like ? What

9:02

was school like ? You know , what

9:05

other languages do you know ? And

9:07

this is not to fetishize you , it's really

9:09

just to get . This

9:14

is just really to

9:16

get and we talked about this before

9:18

that the experience that you

9:20

may have had and

9:23

you know we're not going to date our

9:25

age , you but the experience that you had

9:27

years ago was not

9:29

as common as the opportunities that people

9:32

have now where

9:34

they pick up and go to another country . So

9:36

for you , you know

9:38

, I think telling the story you

9:41

know in a time when not many people are doing

9:43

it gives a fascinating perspective . So

9:45

, yeah , just what was school like

9:47

? Learning the languages and

9:50

all that good stuff .

9:51

I was fortunate enough to go to some pretty

9:53

, to attend some pretty diverse schools . Most

9:56

of the school I went to were private and internationally

9:59

focused and a few

10:01

of them early on were public , but

10:03

after that the rest of them

10:05

were private and it

10:09

was challenging from a standpoint

10:11

of just

10:13

really making and establishing

10:16

friendships , lasting friendships , because

10:19

there's so much movement . I

10:21

mean I went to three different high schools

10:24

in two different countries and

10:26

also I

10:28

mean the language wasn't that big of

10:30

a challenge because because of the fact that I went to private

10:32

schools and , like I said , internationally focused

10:34

schools , so you know

10:37

English was the primary language taught

10:39

and spoken I

10:41

had opportunities to learn and

10:43

take classes in different dialects

10:47

as well , but I chose to

10:49

study French primarily , so

10:52

I started taking French classes

10:55

as early as I can remember , so

10:57

I didn't really become

11:00

too fluent or

11:02

have a lot of exposure

11:05

to a lot of the local dialects .

11:08

And so tell us about

11:10

the experience in Kenya . I know right now

11:12

Kenya is the

11:15

hottest African country that

11:17

everyone is talking about . From you

11:20

know , from everything . I mean , most

11:22

people don't even know that everything they a

11:24

lot of the technology we're experiencing really

11:27

you know is birthed out of Kenya . So

11:30

talk to me about your experience

11:32

in Kenya , even though , even if it

11:34

were only for a brief time , I

11:36

lived in a very remote village

11:39

.

11:39

Actually , I went

11:41

there and spent

11:43

it was almost like a sabbatical

11:46

or semester abroad . Essentially , we

11:50

had some very close Kenyan

11:52

friends who

11:54

the father actually worked with my

11:57

father at the United Nations and

11:59

when he took his family back

12:01

he offered me

12:03

a chance to come with them . So that's

12:05

what I did and we stayed in this small

12:08

village outside of Kasumu , which

12:10

is pretty close to the Ugandan border

12:13

, and that was

12:15

really really

12:17

interesting because it was very

12:20

much a very rural type of environment and

12:22

it was on a farm and they'd

12:25

like farmers

12:28

. Do you know , we

12:30

had a generator and we didn't have hot

12:33

water and we cooked

12:36

over gas stoves

12:39

and we lived

12:41

in a , like

12:43

I said , a very rural , no-froze

12:45

environment .

12:47

That sounds like . Well , it's

12:49

bringing back memories of growing up in Jamaica

12:51

. There is , you know , there

12:53

was no hot water . I mean , now they're fancy

12:55

, you know you can get hot water , but

12:59

then it wasn't . And I remember

13:01

, you know , after moving here and going back

13:03

to Jamaica , having been used to American

13:06

hot water , cold water , and going

13:08

there and like double dutching , before

13:10

I jumped into the shower Because I'm like you

13:12

know , it's one of those things that you got to run in

13:14

and just like scream and

13:17

then get it over with . So

13:19

that sounds , you know , familiar

13:22

. What else was different

13:25

about it ? Like you said

13:28

, cooking over the stove . Like you

13:30

know , I remember back

13:32

in 88 , again , I'm aging

13:35

myself here but , like you know

13:37

, in the Caribbean they had , like , these

13:39

little cooking mobile

13:41

cooking things that ran on

13:44

kerosene oil or

13:46

something like that . Oh , that's

13:48

what you're talking about . Okay , yes , yeah

13:50

, so , yes , you know , it's all familiar

13:52

, you know , and anyone who's listening , who's

13:54

like I , will

13:56

find a picture and show it to

13:59

you . But even after

14:01

the hurricane , I think

14:03

what ? What a lot of Jamaicans had

14:05

was like , yeah , you know , they

14:07

had that type of stove

14:11

because that's what they would cook

14:13

outside in . So no one fried

14:16

fish in the house . They fried it outside

14:18

on that thing , or they roasted

14:20

breadfruit on that thing because

14:22

it was so mobile you put it outside . So

14:25

I'm sure some

14:27

somewhere somehow that things still exist

14:29

. But you're bringing back some memories

14:32

. What else was unique

14:34

about that rural experience

14:37

in Kenya ?

14:39

I think it was . It was . It was

14:41

good for me to really

14:43

appreciate the little

14:45

things . I wouldn't say I was spoiled

14:48

by any sort of imagination , but because

14:50

even where we lived in

14:53

Zambia , there was a definitely

14:55

a stark difference in terms of all is

14:57

accessible and available

14:59

when you make the comparison to

15:01

North America and other

15:03

Western countries . Just the accessibility

15:06

of just basic things and having

15:10

things that we consider luxuries

15:12

were everyday

15:14

things that people have here in the US , for

15:16

example . But the

15:19

time of Kasuma was definitely more

15:21

of a stark contrast

15:23

and I think I was ready

15:26

for it . I mean , I didn't . I think they probably

15:28

having the cold showers is probably the toughest

15:30

part .

15:31

That's always tough . I'm not going to lie .

15:34

Yeah , but everything else was fine . I was familiar with

15:36

the lack of electricity

15:38

and the strange

15:41

bugs and animals and pests

15:43

and snakes , and that wasn't I

15:46

was familiar with all of that .

15:49

It sounds like you had like a

15:52

Caribbean experience from

15:55

from from me living

15:57

in Jamaica , like it's just like

15:59

a thing . So let's shifting

16:01

now to South Africa . What

16:04

was your experience in South Africa

16:06

? Tell me a little bit about that experience .

16:09

So we lived in Johannesburg and that was that

16:12

was more more developed

16:14

than any other

16:16

places I lived previously and

16:19

there was definitely more accessible and

16:21

available and it

16:23

was just a more modern city and modern

16:25

environment . But it

16:28

had its own set of challenges . It

16:30

was not

16:32

too long after apartheid was supposed

16:35

to be officially over and

16:38

not too long after Nelson Mandela's

16:40

release from prison . You know

16:42

, you may change those institutions

16:45

and make those

16:47

drastic changes to policy

16:50

, but changing people's

16:52

mentalities and mindsets and

16:55

behavior that will take generations

16:57

.

16:58

You chopped down the tree , but the root system

17:00

still exists , absolutely , absolutely

17:02

.

17:03

And so , yeah , I dealt with

17:06

some vicious racism and

17:08

prejudice

17:10

and some , you

17:13

know , just really eye-opening things

17:15

and interactions

17:18

. But I was

17:20

fortunate and I don't take this

17:22

for granted because of my father's

17:24

position and

17:26

where we lived and where

17:29

I went to school , I was

17:31

shielded from the

17:33

worst of it . I think so

17:36

, especially when I compare myself to a

17:39

lot of the friends

17:41

that I made , a lot of my classmates who

17:43

didn't

17:46

have the same luxuries

17:49

or opportunities or privileges

17:51

. You know people who a lot of my

17:53

classmates lived

17:56

in Soweto and grew up in Soweto

17:58

and they were

18:00

either bused into the

18:02

school I went to or they

18:05

were boarded there . There

18:08

were boarders , they had scholarships

18:10

and they were allowed to board there because

18:12

they're scholarships and they

18:14

had a very different experience and

18:16

different background and different upbringing than

18:19

I did . So , like

18:21

I said , I don't take that for granted .

18:24

I mean we're going ick and come back , ick

18:27

come back .

18:31

Sorry , that was a lot , I'm sorry .

18:33

No , no , no , you said a lot but

18:35

you're not telling the audience . You

18:38

know Like I

18:40

think you need to put it in context the

18:44

timing . You know you said it

18:46

, but you are in South Africa

18:48

around the time that

18:51

Nelson Mandela was

18:53

released from

18:55

prison , right , and there's a lot

18:57

of change that is happening

18:59

. But I

19:02

know this . But there was

19:04

a very significant experience

19:06

that you've had and

19:08

I'd like you to share that with the audience

19:10

and , if anything , that you learned from

19:12

that experience . I think you know

19:14

what I'm talking about .

19:17

Oh , amazing Nelson Mandela . Yes , what

19:20

did I learn from it ?

19:21

Yes , Like , what was that interaction like

19:23

? And you know , in the conversation

19:26

with Rafael , you I guess you didn't recognize

19:28

or you didn't appreciate let's

19:30

use that word the magnitude of

19:33

that . And so , like , share

19:36

, one , the interaction . And two

19:39

, you know , I guess , your awareness

19:41

of like , the privilege , like you said , the

19:43

privilege because of who your father

19:45

was , where he worked , the proximate , the school

19:47

. I think that is just such a what's

19:51

the word I'm looking for ? I don't want to say point it , but it's

19:53

just such an important experience

19:55

that not many people ever get to say

19:58

they've met Nelson Mandela or someone

20:00

who history is

20:02

. So what's the word I'm looking for ? Like is so

20:04

like they have their place cemented

20:06

in history . And so for you to

20:08

have that experience , meeting him and

20:11

now , how do you

20:13

take that experience to your , you

20:16

know , as you grow and then come back

20:18

to America I guess that's what I'm asking like , how did

20:20

all of this experience , bottled

20:22

together , help you with

20:24

life after , now that you've moved back

20:26

to America ?

20:29

From a perspective and understanding

20:32

and appreciating the

20:34

small things in life , the little things in life

20:36

, and appreciating human beings

20:39

and how

20:41

precious every interaction is

20:44

. And I think this is this is one

20:46

of the reasons that I embarked

20:48

on the career that I'm in and just and

20:50

chose this career of human resources is

20:53

because at a very young age I

20:55

mean , I think part of it is innate , I

20:57

think part of it is is

20:59

who I am and how I'm built

21:02

, but also my , my experiences

21:04

kind of led

21:06

me to where I am today . Those

21:08

experiences growing up and

21:10

traveling the globe they

21:12

absolutely make me good

21:15

at what I'm doing today .

21:17

And we're gonna get to what you're doing . So at what

21:19

point did you decide like , okay , I've

21:22

done Africa , we've traveled around the

21:24

world . Why did you move back to

21:26

the US ?

21:27

To attend university .

21:30

And that's where we buck up in the beer drinking

21:32

.

21:35

I know I went from shaking Nelson

21:37

Mandela's hand to

21:39

doing kickstands . Yes , yes

21:42

, yes .

21:43

So how did you process

21:45

that experience ? For me it was just like

21:48

, oh my God , like these people

21:50

don't know how to pay my alcohol and just kept

21:52

it moving . But what

21:54

was your experience with

21:57

the college life , coming

21:59

back from Africa and going

22:01

to school in these different countries ?

22:03

Oh , it was extremely difficult . I

22:05

was a fish out of water and

22:08

I thought I wouldn't be , because we

22:10

would come back here on vacation

22:13

pretty regularly , at least once a year

22:15

, maybe once every other year , to visit family

22:18

, see relatives , travel a little

22:20

bit , and it's because

22:22

a lot of my relatives are

22:24

based on the East coast , especially

22:27

the Tri-State area . But

22:31

I thought I was ready . I thought , oh yeah

22:34

, I come here almost every summer

22:36

and hang out with my cousins

22:38

and I know the

22:41

lingo and I know how to dress and I

22:43

know what the popular songs

22:45

are . I think I can hang . And

22:48

yeah , no , it was rough

22:50

. That freshman year

22:52

was brutal . I

22:55

was telling my wife this not too long ago

22:57

and how this is freshman

22:59

year , I would wake up before

23:02

my eight o'clock lab , my eight am

23:04

lab . I would wake up about

23:06

6.30 and iron

23:08

my clothes and

23:11

I would wear

23:13

a button down , shirt

23:15

and collar and some

23:17

slacks or maybe some

23:19

khakis and some hush puppies and

23:24

I would go to class . I'd

23:26

go and have a full breakfast at

23:28

the cafeteria and then go to

23:30

class and people thought I was crazy

23:33

because people would roll in the class . They'd

23:35

wake up five minutes before class rolling in

23:37

their pajamas , exactly that

23:39

was the and they think I was

23:41

crazy . My roommate thought I was nuts because

23:44

he said well , what are you

23:46

waking up so early and why are you ironing your clothes

23:48

Like I don't even have

23:50

an iron ?

23:52

Listen , you just brought back because

23:54

I forgot about the whole pajama thing , because

23:57

in my head again , caribbean

23:59

parents , you're going to class

24:01

in your 19 . Yeah , exactly

24:03

, you know , like what is that ? You know ? So

24:06

I didn't dress as preppy

24:08

or formal like you , but you're still just

24:11

decent , you know . Like you know people presentable

24:13

Like here , comb , you

24:16

know not going in pajamas , face

24:18

wash , brush , teeth , so it was

24:20

a culture shock . I remember it

24:22

was just such a weird experience . So my dorm

24:25

room was a Jack and Jill setup

24:28

. So it's for anyone who doesn't

24:30

know what a Jack and Jill is it's two rooms

24:32

where the bathroom is in the middle , separating

24:34

both rooms . So

24:37

I was sharing a bathroom with three

24:39

other girls , including my roommate

24:41

and this one girl . She

24:43

washed her here every day . I was like

24:45

who does that ? And then I

24:47

was complaining because I'm like she go , don't know

24:49

the hot water . Right

24:53

, do you have to remember ? Like , as a black

24:55

girl , washing your hair every day is foreign

24:58

, like who does

25:00

that ? And so the hair washing

25:02

one , not only she go , don't know the

25:04

hot water , she's in the shower for a long

25:07

time , mm-mm . So

25:10

it's just like I don't and

25:13

you're just bringing back memories of these like

25:15

they were so small . But

25:18

to someone from Brooklyn and

25:20

a very , you know , strong

25:22

Caribbean enclave like this is very

25:24

foreign business to me . Like

25:27

this is new and the

25:29

ironing we ironed . Like I

25:31

had an iron and my roommate

25:34

had her ironed . So

25:36

my roommate was Jamaican too , so we

25:38

had our ironed right . So

25:40

when they come out to the room looking

25:42

crush , we're just looking like we

25:44

don't understand this . We just don't

25:46

understand this at all . I

25:49

mean , I am not the best ironer

25:51

. I generally think that it's been my

25:53

experience that all the Caribbean men

25:55

that I've come across they love

25:57

to iron , love it Absolutely

25:59

. My brother will iron his

26:01

jeans . That's how much he has

26:03

. That's true . He's

26:07

like you know , that's just how

26:09

much . But it was just like I don't

26:11

understand this and I mean it's not

26:13

that it was a bad thing . I think what people

26:16

you know don't understand

26:18

how much we're so ins

26:20

, it's so insular in the house , like these

26:23

are the norms in the house and it never

26:25

occurs to us that other people

26:27

do different things . So it's

26:29

, it's a culture shock . Like wait

26:32

, you don't iron to

26:34

put on clothes and

26:36

you wash your hair every day

26:39

. You know , every time you take a

26:41

shower , you wash it .

26:43

Like don't get me started on washcloths . The

26:46

last year in this country .

26:50

So so . So the college experience was

26:52

as you said . It was just like you're fishing

26:55

fish out of water . So now

26:57

let's shift to your consulting

27:00

business . As HR and

27:02

you know I've sat in multiple

27:05

HR roles so what particular

27:07

area of HR do you

27:09

consult in ? Are you more

27:11

of rewards and compensation

27:14

, which is basically the money pot , benefits

27:17

, benefits or is it more

27:19

like talent management

27:22

, like which area of HR are

27:24

you focused in , or do you do all of them ?

27:27

I do all of them except for benefits

27:29

and payroll . So

27:32

what I do is I evaluate

27:34

the human resources infrastructure of

27:37

a particular company or organization and

27:40

I help them

27:42

to figure out ways to

27:44

make these processes and strategies

27:47

more compliant

27:49

, more cost effective and , overall

27:52

, more efficient , and customizing

27:54

that approach to that particular company

27:57

, that particular organization and that particular

27:59

sector that they're in . So

28:01

it's not a , you know , one size

28:03

fits all type of approach . I have to really

28:05

understand exactly what they're

28:07

doing and where they want to go , because

28:10

the goal is to help them to scale effectively

28:12

.

28:13

I mean , I've always thought that HR

28:15

is a very critical role in

28:17

any company because

28:19

it's a cost center . A lot

28:21

of times it doesn't , you know

28:23

, it becomes like a Cinderella

28:26

. I mean it's

28:28

needed , but you know what I mean , like it's almost

28:30

like , oh , that's HR . You know that's not

28:32

important , but I think in the last couple

28:34

of years the role of HR has really

28:36

become very central , as

28:39

we have a lot of the social

28:41

unrest and you know , like

28:43

with COVID , you know the different

28:45

, you know companies who

28:48

were absolutely against working

28:50

from home had no choice but to embrace

28:52

working from home . So what

28:55

has been the thing

28:57

that you're seeing most with

28:59

your clients and , I guess , broadly in the industry

29:01

when it comes to HR , that you're

29:03

seeing as a trend or some challenges

29:06

that companies across all

29:08

industries are still dealing with ?

29:12

I think a lot of companies are still adjusting

29:14

to having

29:16

a distributed workforce and

29:19

basically having to manage

29:21

an organization virtually that

29:25

. I think it will be an ongoing challenge

29:27

, but it's

29:30

really interesting to see

29:32

the new found emphasis

29:34

on DEI diversity

29:36

. Equity and

29:38

inclusion Sorry , equity and inclusion .

29:40

It's a buzzword , it's

29:42

that's how I feel about it . It's

29:45

a buzzword and I

29:48

feel like on

29:50

the outside looking in , they put all the minorities

29:52

in the DEI roles .

29:56

That's it's interesting . I have some

29:58

thoughts on that . Go ahead .

29:59

And it's not necessarily

30:01

I

30:04

can't say blankedly it's

30:06

a bad thing . I feel

30:08

like there has to be other

30:11

qualifications , other than your minority

30:13

Precisely , To

30:15

be in that role Precisely

30:17

. And I just don't see a lot of

30:20

that and what happens is

30:22

just putting someone

30:24

in that role because they're a minority causes

30:26

more harm . So

30:30

that's just my thing and I try

30:32

not to be pulled into DEI projects

30:34

because I'm black or have

30:36

immigrant experiences , Like I'm

30:39

very mindful . If I get pulled

30:41

into something I

30:44

want to make sure it's really deeply

30:46

rooted in what my experiences

30:48

are and not because I'm solely the

30:51

black woman immigrant

30:53

. Those three minority you know

30:56

are buckets

30:58

. The checklist right , the check yeah

31:00

. So that's just my thing

31:02

.

31:02

On DEI no

31:04

, I agree . I agree . I was having a conversation

31:06

about that recently when

31:08

and I've asked I'd

31:11

like to actually do a kind of a formal survey

31:14

on this because I

31:16

noticed the same thing you just mentioned and

31:19

I actually dealt

31:21

with this specifically with a client who

31:24

had asked me about

31:27

whether it makes sense for her . It

31:29

makes sense for her this is a white woman

31:31

and it makes . Does it make sense

31:34

for her to oversee

31:37

the diversity committee

31:39

at this particular company ? And

31:42

she said she didn't necessarily feel comfortable doing

31:44

that and she was worried about the optics

31:46

and what I told her . I said

31:48

well , you are the

31:50

primary HR professional

31:53

in the organization and

31:55

just because you're a white woman does mean that you can't

31:57

facilitate and lead this

32:00

committee and the conversations that

32:03

are surrounding diversity , equity

32:05

and inclusion at the organization . And

32:09

it is something that I've really been

32:12

curious about and really kind

32:14

of pushed people on and

32:16

to ask people's opinion , especially other

32:18

seasoned HR professionals Like you know what is

32:20

. Is this prerequisite

32:23

? You know what is

32:25

the challenge here ? What is it ? What

32:28

is it that a non-minority

32:32

can't do to

32:34

impose or

32:37

to enforce or to promote

32:39

or to develop practices

32:42

within an organization that can

32:45

fulfill these needs ?

32:48

I mean , it's a tricky

32:50

subject . We probably need a different podcast

32:52

to talk about it because , yeah

32:55

, because some people might think that somebody

32:57

of color should be in that role , but

33:00

I would think that maybe it would

33:02

be good for some . I mean , there's

33:04

an argument for both . There are some people who

33:06

are deeply rooted . They study

33:09

this . People of color . They know it , they know

33:11

the practice , they are beyond

33:14

. You know like this is what they

33:16

live , eat and breathe . Right , those

33:18

are the exceptions and

33:20

this is what a lot of people don't realize

33:22

. They're the exceptions , they're not the norm . And

33:25

so other companies who don't have

33:27

the resources to pay the people

33:29

who are deeply rooted in this practice

33:31

decide to look around

33:33

and maybe pick someone who's maybe vocal

33:36

about it in the office

33:38

, but don't have enough tools or

33:40

resources to expand

33:43

their practice of

33:46

a DEI leader and then bring

33:48

that into the company and the

33:50

culture . So it's very

33:52

complicated , but DEI is one , and

33:54

the distributed workforce

33:56

. So , funny story , I left

33:58

the legal industry completely in 2017

34:00

and I went to work for a company

34:02

. That was another culture shock

34:05

, and it was a culture shock because

34:07

law firms are rooted in what

34:09

Precedence culture

34:11

? This is how we've done this . Law

34:14

firms have been around for 50 , 100

34:16

, 200 years , right ? So

34:18

I go to this company and

34:21

I go in and they're like you could sit anywhere

34:23

. I was like , wait , excuse

34:25

me , what do you mean ? I

34:27

don't have a desk that I come and sit at every

34:29

day . No , people just pick whichever

34:31

desk they want to sit . That was one . There

34:35

was no desktop . Oh , we give laptops

34:37

. So we had a MacBook

34:39

and it's like you take it home every day . Wait , what ? What

34:42

you know ? And

34:44

then it was a

34:47

very different culture because most

34:50

of the people that I worked with

34:52

were distributed . I had coworkers

34:55

who were in the UK they're

34:57

in different parts of the US and

35:00

it was the first time

35:02

I experienced what now everyone

35:04

considers a distributed workforce

35:06

. And most of my

35:08

coworkers I only saw them once a week because

35:12

they were consultants . So , depending

35:14

on their travel schedule , some

35:17

would be in the office on Monday

35:19

because they traveled Tuesday to Friday

35:21

, or some would be in the office Friday

35:24

because they traveled Monday to Thursday . And

35:26

it was just a very new experience

35:29

because I also saw the

35:31

dysfunction in that model

35:33

, coming from a model

35:35

where everyone came to work , everyone worked in

35:37

the same place and if there was another

35:39

law firm in another city . All

35:41

those people worked in the same place . But

35:44

, looking back , that was one

35:46

of the best experiences that I had because

35:48

when everyone was adjusting to

35:50

this new way of working in the pandemic

35:53

, by the time the pandemic

35:55

rolled around . I was living this life for three

35:57

years . I had a boss that I've only seen

35:59

maybe twice in the three seen

36:01

in person physically

36:03

maybe two times or three

36:05

times in my entire tenure there . And

36:08

there were people that I spoke to all

36:11

the time and I've never seen

36:13

them in person . They were always

36:15

just on a team's call or whatever

36:19

that we had going on . But

36:21

going back to the trends that you've noticed

36:23

and most of my listeners aren't

36:25

HR folks , they are the

36:27

employees maybe impacted

36:30

by these HR policies . So

36:32

how should we be navigating

36:35

or figuring out what we should be doing

36:37

at work ? Because everybody's having a problem

36:39

with this Google , microsoft

36:42

, everyone is having a problem

36:44

with that . So what is the role

36:46

of the employees ? And you get

36:49

this unique position because you see

36:51

the challenges the employers are dealing

36:53

with and the employees . Once

36:55

you give me something , you can't take it back because

36:57

it's then going bong dong the building if you

36:59

take it back . So

37:04

, from that perspective , what

37:06

are your thoughts about where we need to go

37:08

next ?

37:10

I think we definitely need

37:12

to listen to employees

37:15

more , and it sounds

37:17

obvious , but

37:21

it's shocking how

37:24

few leaders really

37:26

listen to their employees

37:28

or provide a safe

37:32

environment to allow

37:35

feedback from their employees

37:37

. Now , listen , the employees don't expect

37:39

you to deliver on everything that

37:41

they ask , but they expect

37:43

you to listen , and

37:45

if they don't feel as though you're listening

37:48

, you're going to lose them . And

37:51

there are a variety of reasons and

37:53

you hear the whole adage about

37:56

the people . The

37:58

number one reason that people leave is

38:00

not because of money . There are

38:02

several other factors and

38:04

having a good manager

38:06

is one of the reasons they stay . And

38:10

it's even more

38:12

critical now to listen to your employees

38:14

, particularly with this distributed

38:17

lifestyle now

38:19

, because , as you mentioned , there

38:21

are many people who hire

38:24

, people who never meet

38:26

in person , and

38:29

there's so much that you lose

38:32

and you don't have

38:34

to build upon because

38:36

you don't have that face-to-face

38:39

interaction . And

38:41

it's funny . It's actually gotten almost

38:44

comical when you look at how people's

38:46

days are structured , where

38:48

there's no more small talk , there's

38:51

no more water cooler talk

38:53

. You log

38:56

into your Zoom or whatever it is you use

38:58

, and you have to get right into it . There's

39:00

little room for niceties

39:02

, pleasantries , small talk . Hey

39:05

, how was your weekend ? No , it's okay

39:07

, let's get on to the agenda . And

39:10

then , oh sorry , I got to jump to the next call . So

39:13

it becomes

39:15

so much

39:17

more impersonal . And

39:20

because

39:22

of that , because of the environment

39:24

, because of the current situation

39:26

, you have to find

39:29

ways to make the time

39:31

and put in practices

39:34

and to really make

39:37

a stronger effort to do these things

39:39

. Otherwise

39:43

it's not going to look good yeah

39:46

.

39:48

There's no easy fix because each

39:51

company also have to factor

39:53

in their culture , and

39:56

the other challenge that I see is that people

39:58

are holding on , still holding on to a

40:00

pre-pandemic culture and

40:02

not being open to

40:04

what a post-pandemic culture

40:07

. It's

40:10

the holding on to what was , as

40:13

opposed to what can be

40:15

. What was good about this , what was

40:17

, and I think it's an opportunity

40:19

for them to learn what wasn't so great about

40:22

it . It might have been great for you , but

40:24

for some people it wasn't great . But

40:27

that's a lot of work that companies

40:29

are . They're still underwater with DEI

40:31

. I don't even think they're ready to deal with the culture

40:34

overhaul yet , but

40:36

yes . So when we think of so

40:38

wrapping up , when we think of your travels

40:40

and your experience

40:43

, your multicultural experience

40:45

, what advice would you give to the

40:47

audience ?

40:52

Oh , that's a good question

40:54

. I would

40:56

definitely say travel , I mean travel

40:58

as much as you can and travel

41:00

outside of your comfort zone

41:02

, travel outside

41:04

the country , travel

41:07

to a place that you're not

41:10

familiar with , that you're not familiar with the

41:13

culture , the traditions , the language

41:15

, the food . Yeah , you

41:18

learn so much from traveling

41:20

and it really changes your perspective

41:24

on life , on the world , on people

41:26

. It allows you to understand other

41:28

people more effectively . Travel

41:31

is priceless , wonderful

41:33

.

41:34

Marcus , this was such a wonderful conversation

41:36

. I feel like now we're going to chat a whole

41:38

bunch of other stuff outside

41:41

of this , but if anyone

41:43

wants to get in touch with you , where can

41:45

they find you ?

41:48

RH1 Consulting . Emma

41:50

Haynes at RH1consultingcom . Rh1consultingcom

41:54

is the website . You

41:57

can definitely reach me . I'm based

41:59

here in New York . My

42:01

clients are based

42:03

in the US , somewhere international

42:06

as well , but yeah , I'm

42:09

local .

42:11

Wonderful . Thank you so much

42:13

for being on the podcast sharing your

42:15

international experience

42:17

.

42:21

And there it is .

42:24

You know we have to do it , of course

42:26

. Of course I love it . I love it

42:28

, I love international

42:31

, worldwide experience

42:34

. This

42:36

is why I love doing carry on friends

42:38

, because I can do those things and people

42:41

get it . You laugh , you

42:43

are going to laugh , you're going to you

42:45

know . Like you know , my friend sent

42:47

me a video of what her friend was

42:50

doing , a video of her son , of his son

42:52

, and asking his son like can you

42:54

speak Jamaican ? In the sun it's like yes

42:57

, so what Jamaican words do

42:59

you know ? You know what the sun said ? Tree

43:01

and eight . You know I

43:04

was

43:06

just laughing , not

43:11

number eight , but hate . We

43:16

have to stress it .

43:18

If you know , you know , you know you know

43:20

.

43:21

So , marcus , thank you for being

43:23

on the podcast , for laughing

43:25

and sharing and , as I

43:28

love to say at the end of every episode

43:30

, walk good .