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0:49

news. Hello

1:10

my friends and welcome to catch up with

1:13

Louise Max sorry I'm Louise like sorry And

1:15

this is our Friday episode the Interview episode

1:17

I will get to the in a moment

1:19

but first of wish to greet you hello

1:22

how are you I hope you are well

1:24

have not no worries can always be well

1:26

actually had a morning this week where and

1:29

it was Monday movie or is sitting in

1:31

the car in the way home from droppings

1:33

hum of for it to school and just

1:35

the idea of all the things I had

1:38

to do I found myself. Beginning.

1:40

To cry and then I was like get

1:42

a grip Am So you know we all

1:44

have who's moments and you may have something

1:46

more serious going on in your life than

1:48

just suddenly feeling overwhelmed by everything that you

1:50

have to do. And no matter what you're

1:52

feeling that okay with me on that is

1:55

okay here at I have had a pretty

1:57

decent week. Actually it's been it's been very

1:59

busy. I did. You evening events is

2:01

weak, both of which were focus on

2:03

culture and one with for the Marketing

2:06

Society and someone with for Image Magazine.

2:08

ons. I was on panels, both nice

2:10

discussing culture where culture is an island

2:12

at the moment, one or and the

2:15

most relevant issues and who is doing

2:17

cool things on. It's really fun. I

2:19

love talking with a contest. If you

2:22

want me for panel, please help me

2:24

off. I love to be on a

2:26

panel. my fave. I also moderate panels

2:28

by it. And. That fun but

2:31

I the tape eat Enjoy! Even.

2:33

More being on them. Also been working on

2:35

planning the next live show. So obviously as

2:37

I mentioned previously to live show for May

2:39

ninth in the Laughter Lions is so dice.

2:42

Ah and it's so funny. like the minute

2:44

it so that I started getting messages from

2:46

you guys like no, I didn't get a

2:48

ticket, I didn't get my ticket having it

2:51

my second on time or I got my

2:53

ticket but none of my friends got tickets

2:55

or you know any chance you do another

2:57

one Not a didn't work for me but

2:59

I'd really love to go and I have.

3:02

Wonderful new three my friends because there is in

3:04

fact another life so coming going on the twenty

3:06

ninth of May also in the last and I

3:09

am so if the previous they didn't work for

3:11

you or if you didn't get tickets or whatever

3:13

this is gonna be a different show with wow

3:15

So if for some reason you haven't gotten enough

3:17

of me I'm frankly second set of my own

3:20

voice am you could com and he with the

3:22

a completely different show so. There

3:24

were a lot of fun stuff ahead of

3:26

the link in the zone or seat and

3:28

come and join If he wants an honest

3:31

honest with anything major to say it'll pink

3:33

so am I. Just have had a really

3:35

lovely week with you guys really? I did

3:37

the mailbag episode for the Patron this week

3:39

as well. I finally found the pot or

3:41

phone guys it's overseas old are saying. Like.

3:45

He. Was that were that I'd already looked

3:47

like it was somewhere that I had looks

3:49

repeatedly. I can't explain why I couldn't find

3:51

it's there's no explanation for it like icons.

3:53

I sat on the Patron episode I would

3:56

like. If I believed in Afrikaans, I would

3:58

think a leper colony had taken. And

4:00

with watching me look and laughing at me

4:02

because I just don't I mean it was

4:05

under something but I had pulled that up

4:07

anyway. It doesn't matter to point is I

4:09

finally got a back so that number is

4:11

back and accents. I hadn't given it a

4:13

the last couple of episodes because I didn't

4:15

want to ask you guys to be sending

4:17

messages to a number. The potentially was gone

4:20

forever but it's own. It's not a late

4:22

ninety one nine six forty three is the

4:24

number. Oh eight nine to nine six four

4:26

two three that numbered back in action. I

4:28

would love to hear from you am on

4:30

anything that comes up in the park as

4:33

or indeed any just any random question you

4:35

might have. The demand like episode of the

4:37

always really nice because lots of different things

4:39

come up and people are really generous and

4:41

sharing their own experiences on. say I didn't

4:43

cry this time but it definitely came close.

4:46

It's more personal I think for me because

4:48

it feels like it's a very safe space

4:50

and I love this is one of their

4:52

bonus episodes you can get access to join

4:54

the nature and and feelings for that isn't

4:56

the shown us as well. I'm still working

4:58

on researching be. Forthcoming Taylor

5:01

Swift An episode. Some

5:04

guy. So much of people says really like

5:06

to think and talk about her for so trying to

5:08

condense it into one episode it's gonna be interesting but

5:10

that of yet in a couple of weeks as well.

5:13

Anyway, let's get to today's interview.

5:16

a couple of weeks ago I

5:18

had ever fairly sizable rants about

5:20

the state of play for women

5:23

in society I and my concern

5:25

about the growth of online anti

5:28

female sentiment on massage any in

5:30

general and knifes mere hours after

5:32

I had.runs loads of you started

5:35

sending me information about this research

5:37

that had made from the Dc

5:40

You Anti Bullying Center which looks

5:42

at the way. Young men

5:44

are kind is said massage and

5:46

as to content on platforms like

5:48

tic toc and you tube shorts.

5:51

So I really wanted to speak

5:53

to someone who had worked. On that

5:55

research and I was very lucky to do that

5:57

this week. I spoke seat or three dogs are Catherine

5:59

Baker. Who am I want to

6:01

read you all herself because she sounds

6:03

amazing as she was amazing to talk

6:05

to you to see the postdoctoral researcher

6:07

with a D C You Anti Bullying

6:09

center she is a salchow with the

6:12

Institute of Research or Males the premises

6:14

I'm Her research interests include gender education,

6:16

massage, any radicalisation, digital media, conspiracy theories

6:18

to all of that seasons you. A

6:20

lot of the concerns are come up

6:22

on his podcast over and over and

6:24

over again at bay. People like Andrew

6:26

take for example or all of the

6:28

agitate. Wannabes who have sprung up. All

6:30

the guys who are on the internet talking

6:32

about. Body Canes and just speaking about women

6:35

in an absolutely horrific way and the question

6:37

of how do people end up there and

6:39

what can we do about it. So I

6:41

want us author about all of the things.

6:44

I wanted to ask her about the research

6:46

specifically but I also what has after but

6:48

where, where how have we gotten hair and

6:50

where are we going and what can we

6:52

do if we hadn't young men in our

6:55

lives to try and ensure that they don't

6:57

fall down this path. And I really enjoyed

6:59

learning from Catherine and I think that you

7:01

will to the Doctor Saturn. Baker. Thank you

7:04

so much for making the time to talk

7:06

to me to. I know you've been busy

7:08

talking about this mess recent piece of research

7:10

that you've done in Dc you but it's

7:12

before we get into that. I would love

7:14

to hear how you got into this area

7:16

of research on this kind of area focus

7:18

of your work. Yeah.

7:20

Thank you so much for helping me! So

7:23

I. Did. To my phd. I

7:26

started my phd five years ago

7:28

and I had a degree in

7:30

psychology and then I was looking.

7:32

I bought on have been very

7:34

interesting like gender and some. Of

7:38

the an online such any and specifically

7:40

looking at in south which. And

7:42

Been tree Sullivan which are quite an extreme

7:44

as a group of. The money feared. So.

7:47

That the database. Five years ago. That was kind

7:50

of what the hell's means the world, them, atmosphere

7:52

and research in this area and from then I

7:54

kind of just kind of thrown have gone on.

7:56

Not so. I finished my Ph seabirds years ago

7:59

and then started. In here am.

8:02

In the anti bullying center and it's

8:04

around much Maybe it was run the

8:06

seat same time as the rise of

8:08

Undertakes am at this kind of like

8:11

stratospheric change in what them on fear

8:13

look like know from this kind. Of

8:15

for a base communities into the for

8:17

like. Influencer. And.

8:19

Bottle of Things. That kind of what sparked

8:21

my interest into and and Adobe or my

8:23

it's interesting to this project was we all

8:25

had quite a big background and studied the

8:27

month through online. funny and and looking at

8:29

this kind of like rapid change your influences.

8:32

Also the different platforms rocket of motivated to

8:34

see. You know what does that look like

8:36

now compared to the like. Five years ago

8:38

we started researching with area here so let's

8:40

say I mean before we get into at

8:42

let's talk about the origins of I mean

8:44

for thought maybe if you wouldn't mind to

8:46

finding them on here for people. For him

8:48

that kind of expression. Might be new am

8:50

and then second me maybe a little bit

8:52

of background on another where the. Origins of

8:54

that is. So

8:57

the monastery kind of of a broad

8:59

term of abuse cloak lead to refer

9:02

to kind of just prefer overlapping groups

9:04

online all of which kind of focused

9:06

and i would say clump of men's

9:09

issues kind of and also like such

9:11

and he men's rights so it kind

9:13

of the gone. Offline

9:15

initially have the men's rights movement and

9:17

in the eighties and then I'll just

9:20

think snooped on mind at a small

9:22

kind of presence on message boards etc.

9:24

Then we saw can a Pickup Artists

9:26

and the nineties of animals many with

9:28

that term of is kind of man

9:30

who were giving each other to hips

9:33

around seduction. kind of. This is the

9:35

way that you get women Next that

9:37

Iraq. And then this is

9:39

kind of been decreased. Groups put the

9:41

cropping up with similar Brooklinen for a

9:44

difference in truth. Though.

9:47

Third kind of. The. Red pill

9:49

phenomenon of man. got ring online to

9:51

kind of talked about your fire with

9:53

semitism which they see as having the

9:56

road at the rights of of men.

9:58

Ah stand there are are. Two

10:06

women in the picture in there, And hundred

10:09

percent we do not. inferior. Or

10:11

separate like men going Broadway which are

10:13

kind of a male separatist group so

10:16

they're kind of talking about the world,

10:18

the com gear towards women so much

10:20

thus they have to turn away from

10:22

society any. Entirely. So.

10:25

It's this kind of. There's. A

10:27

lot of overlap between these groups in

10:29

terms of like massage Any baffling to

10:32

the because of core idea of the

10:34

red like take over the world opposed.

10:38

To. Be

10:40

used on bass and a new kind

10:43

of seen as a real shipped over

10:45

the years. And an expansion kind of

10:47

of these groups and it's become more

10:49

and more. Buried.

10:52

But also more and more pretty can I

10:54

think? Yeah, it's interesting because I thought

10:56

so much about this and yet I had

10:58

never join the dots. A home between those

11:01

various groups that you just mentioned. Like I

11:03

remember earlier, I started working in Radio of

11:05

A twenty one years ago and I was

11:07

a researcher on current affairs programming and so

11:09

we would have occasionally touched on the kind

11:11

of men's rights groups. I remember at the

11:14

time that with a lot about and men

11:16

having access to their children which of course

11:18

I think that you know father should have

11:20

access to their children and kind of dressing

11:22

up in costumes and these kinds of Am

11:25

campaigns. That they would be involved in but at

11:27

the time it was very much at a small

11:29

minority group and and then obviously I followed the

11:31

rise of in sales and say you know what's

11:33

happening on internet forums and the internet and then

11:36

and yet still I find myself going Houses Hundred

11:38

Eight happens but when you lay it out like

11:40

that you can really see the through line is

11:42

men are victims of net really. Yeah.

11:45

It's really interesting because sexual men's right

11:47

movements in it's original and interactions was

11:49

actually kind of involved with how exciting

11:52

wait a minute then piano can a

11:54

part of conversation that like many to

11:56

think about their role in then and

11:58

then. There was. Or

12:03

scenario moment scaling. You

12:05

think that that. Minute.

12:07

Men could you media construction of

12:09

humanism to the the huge role

12:11

among these groups because wannabes goods

12:14

you hope of. And.

12:16

Variations There is kind of true

12:18

blind of this all their which

12:21

is an progressive society and women

12:23

and feminists. Nick Cetera, I think

12:25

it's the all can it. Can.

12:28

Dance Around. But even though they

12:30

have slightly different labor disputes and

12:32

yeah, yeah, I mean. Like.

12:34

A Just to be clear from the get on,

12:37

I know you know the same page of Atheists.

12:39

You know feminism and equality is good for everyone

12:41

like we've seen time and time again. How damaging

12:43

the patriarchy is for man and for young man

12:45

and for boys. It's really sad kind of that.

12:48

It's been taken as this attack on masculinity or

12:50

an ad hoc on man, but but it's also

12:52

very hard to combat that with them. Have committed

12:54

to that line of thinking as an S. I.

12:57

Think it's not something I find am

12:59

kind of frustrating and challenging a lot

13:01

among my my line of work is

13:03

that often in the spaces you're seeing

13:05

and I'll get into this in weight

13:07

on the research is awkward. Also group

13:09

like insult you see that outpouring of

13:11

like he has little to the best

13:13

and. All be kind of frustration that we

13:15

all and observe that. Humans mcmahon her face

13:18

them into patriarchy the same way women are

13:20

a single who have am burden you to

13:22

p charging. You wanna be like we're on the

13:24

season team? might have? The answers are there with

13:26

you like. This is the way of opening of

13:29

gender roles and since he been. More

13:31

juices and you know zest oxted

13:33

way of society is. Good for all

13:35

of us. Would actually overcome a lot of the issue. Of

13:38

his people feel for strange around behinds right

13:40

success. Both. Of us. But I

13:42

do think. It's twisted.

13:44

I do you think when you come into the

13:46

more influence a model which will talk about his

13:48

eyes the Columbus weaponized say I am. He bargained

13:51

for a quick six month for cancer and fortunately.

13:53

That's. The issue like on are you talking

13:55

gender roles? The teach our kids a complicated one

13:57

that takes time. Worried like if you just. Many

14:00

idea that to swim. It's the best part of

14:02

course one of the floor of a it's got

14:04

this kind of immediate see. Am. But

14:07

I do. But I'm not quite hard

14:09

because sometimes it's like. They.

14:11

Were all kind of looking for the same

14:14

thing, but this is the direction of the

14:16

com. So polarized. Yeah, yeah, I always felt

14:18

like this isn't us that it's the way

14:20

for so many issues as net and things.

14:22

have become a lot more black and white as

14:24

the interaction of the internet which. Is kind of

14:26

wild when you think about it because it shouldn't

14:28

be that way. We have access to more information

14:30

than we ever have before. We have access to

14:32

more of the gray area than we ever have

14:34

before and yet we find ourselves a generally polarized

14:36

on issues like this. and okay, let's talk about

14:38

the research with a first of all of a

14:40

twenty different people sent me this research because this

14:42

is it a at topic that I have come

14:45

up repeatedly on the park half the idea of.

14:48

Influence. Online and pathogenicity can fill.

14:50

It's online and trying to protect man

14:52

from.influence and because of the impact that it

14:54

then goes on to have on women's lives

14:56

and also to protect them And for that

14:59

and for their own good Am so tell

15:01

me about your findings in terms of the

15:03

way or the algorithms on some social media

15:05

platforms are targeting is targeting Thera but are

15:08

are Sydney influencing young man I would say

15:10

emphasized out with i need. We.

15:13

Were kind of motivated by the

15:15

same reasons and working center called

15:18

anti bullying center so the influence

15:20

of hundred she's among boys were

15:22

hearing or camera parents certain and

15:25

it's something. Even from like friends of mine,

15:27

they. Would. Say to me like

15:29

I feel like I got mine the first thing

15:31

I ever see an extra content so different from

15:33

what I see. Yes. So.

15:36

We decided it's and to set

15:38

up experimental at Hans Zimmer methodology.

15:40

nothing going on around a few

15:42

research centers to the looking at

15:44

things like mental health and then.

15:47

Prime. Time as to the last week to

15:49

the. Summer Methodology: Sweet setup these

15:51

ten I phone five on

15:53

you tube sorts. Why

15:55

is on tix? Hop on

15:57

create a completely blind camp.

16:00

I'm. Registered some two boys aged

16:02

sixteen or eighteen. And.

16:05

We see how to control for each

16:07

for each time, but we. Wanted.

16:11

To kind of setup behavior of two

16:13

different types. The boys so first was

16:15

boys who are kind of would say

16:17

months you're curious so I see boys

16:19

were going on except searching of undertakes

16:22

are the things they may have heard

16:24

Cs and the second being boys who

16:26

are actually not looking for the south

16:28

Burgess looking for credit more gender normative

16:30

content. So the gym, video game. With

16:35

the difference in the content that was being. Funded

16:37

and then you know what's that caught.

16:40

Content was recommends, interacted with what would

16:42

happen. And. And

16:44

we kind of nice you that the monster curious.

16:47

So. Would be recommended blue the other

16:50

phone very interested in here and across

16:52

the board for every phone apart from

16:54

the control groups was recommended as well

16:56

as a quote unquote talk. The content.

16:58

On an improvised that with it it's such

17:00

a mistake. kind of far right conspiracy. Content

17:02

and then esteem is that it

17:05

that his bones are the user

17:07

and him which was off and

17:09

interrupted or lot of people watch

17:11

the content it just completely. An.

17:16

Exponential increase over time to lose.

17:18

It's kind of as. Exponential

17:20

increase in the content. So

17:24

I have to say I have two sons

17:26

on to I find a terrifying It's like

17:28

like athlete worst nightmare. I think about it

17:30

all the time at how will I protect

17:32

my children like they're young? They're seven and

17:34

four but my seven year old as the

17:36

you know he's on you tube and to

17:38

supervise on say you know I I do.

17:41

Have most parents? Do you know I'm checking in

17:44

on what he's looking on? I am trying to

17:46

have an open conversation but like it when the

17:48

algorithm is against parents like this, you know you

17:50

really wonder how can we beat us. Yeah,

17:54

it's interesting because I think one of

17:56

the the main findings are research so

17:58

you're interested in the is. credit

18:00

stitch needed to. Use.

18:03

Of like. In a young

18:05

boy, you are young people. Be a

18:07

voice typically have a lot of insecurities, you

18:09

know you can. We are Forty yards mental

18:11

health like it's a tough time and is

18:13

that these influences? Now that I'm honest I

18:16

think that's been kind of big change that

18:18

we're seeing. you know I sleep forum for

18:20

X men are going in cities and I

18:22

was kind of content of their discussing them

18:24

and where is this is after after take

18:26

him launching an approved this is profitable and

18:29

we're seeing more and more of it's kind

18:31

of type ab Sprint thought I'm like myfoxny

18:33

was part of our.effect but the vast majority

18:35

of it's kind. Of. This

18:37

is how the the amman this is

18:39

how real I'm Ox you go to

18:41

the gym tough enough don't show emotion,

18:43

deceptive real and granting. And

18:46

really rejected armed things that we know

18:48

her man is a week as the

18:50

not, the research on the crisis of

18:52

mental health and man in the Us

18:54

not expressing emotions, not having community. You.

18:57

Know only looking up at words

18:59

with money making physical aspect harms

19:01

men and yet we're seeing. Boys.

19:04

Who are vulnerable because the how the

19:06

securities reach Ios A Be back with

19:09

this refilling kind of the package box.

19:13

And in terms of I think of as

19:15

I've seen such a lot of my own

19:17

friends have somebody has children and their. Of

19:19

the consent of wow. But. I

19:22

do think I'm a big part of

19:24

it is not in education here. It's

19:26

really important in a young people needs

19:28

education in terms of critical digital literacy

19:31

to understand loss. Algorithms.

19:33

Are what they social media platform to

19:35

doing but they also really. A

19:37

statement or intersectionality. Inherited

19:40

Series of studies and. School.

19:43

The parents. Are

19:49

now. I didn't. That's a really

19:51

important country that you can have is that we if we

19:53

if. The young boys and young

19:55

people have alternative perspectives. Run these things.

19:57

It becomes less easy to. Follow.

20:00

Because not every man you see this content

20:02

is gonna agree with this scene and we

20:04

say the all these boys a big was only

20:07

a small as boys lucky get drawn in by

20:09

as yeah but even a small number it's

20:11

too many He absolutely I mean I couldn't

20:13

agree with you more because I wrote about

20:15

the three fleet of on the idea of

20:17

sexual education on them the record of a

20:19

debate about primary school students and whether or not

20:21

sexual education should begin than and I was saying

20:23

well look I know I was seven when

20:25

I first became curious about sex and I

20:27

went and a i thought I'd every possible

20:29

avenue. For information on his but fortunately for

20:32

me at the time there weren't that many

20:34

avenues so she couldn't really acts as a

20:36

lot of information that things are different now

20:38

and you know you can access all kinds

20:41

of information but the as he don't know

20:43

what the motivation of the person who's giving

20:45

you that information is and as you say

20:47

you know if we don't offer information elsewhere

20:49

that's going to be where they go. And

20:52

if you've got someone like and rotate who's

20:54

realize that he can be a millionaire as

20:56

a result of you know selling bullshit young

20:58

man then you know. They're going to

21:00

get very good on and on him to

21:03

eat. You know it's gonna be very difficult

21:05

to defeat the Us I find out just

21:07

a terrifying like as prospect and the fact

21:09

that he. You

21:11

know it's what really gets me is

21:13

that for some of his followers, it

21:15

doesn't A seems like it doesn't matter

21:17

what crime he commands or what he

21:20

found guilty of, they still kind of

21:22

see him as the kind of pinnacle

21:24

of masculinity and why if he so

21:26

effective? See you think. I.

21:29

Think. It's. It's

21:32

interesting why is so effective or why

21:34

any of these an incident like that

21:36

is. I think it's the same recipe

21:39

of the message. I think you know

21:41

I was talking to them and recently

21:43

about gender education friendly. I would like

21:46

a solid education and any of their

21:48

area you're not on educated you or

21:50

wrongly agitated know go through life can

21:53

absorb all these norms and you know.

21:55

Internal. I will be ignored

21:57

and stereotypes. The bios, gender, I'm

22:00

and you have to under in those things but

22:02

if someone is coming on paper courage to take

22:04

those embrace them both term see imagine maybe have

22:07

already been exposed to light is it can feel

22:09

very much like well known saying that as in

22:11

this kind of. Filled. All be kind

22:13

of bespoke speaks the something that like

22:15

are inherently believe. And

22:17

it's repackage and it's sunny. Also a really

22:19

big a really big part of the is

22:21

selling a dream is undertaken a promising any

22:24

of Get rich and you will have this

22:26

lifestyle You can have this like a all

22:28

you have to do is. Follow.

22:31

These steps. It's not the only the discourse.

22:33

It's promises. This

22:35

like future earnings obviously it and

22:38

economic times which. Are

22:41

realizing that their economic future so unstable

22:43

the my ever I'm home it might

22:46

never have access these things they might

22:48

have If someone comes on says something

22:50

like we're still be a millionaire that's

22:52

going to be very very appealing, especially

22:55

to some boosted you may be are

22:57

situations where he does like a. Tough.

23:01

Not be possible for them I think again

23:03

it's appealing to a variety of of insecurities

23:05

and and specific undertake a lot of kind

23:07

of money making scheme which one alpha no

23:10

one else in the I am and I

23:12

saw that for their you know if he

23:14

were saying punish the education or something critical

23:16

of the messaging that you receive com then

23:19

when you know you know enough to see

23:21

through the kind of free miss of from

23:23

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for you. Lot

25:03

though is the consequence of this a like I you

25:05

know what is the consequence of a for young man

25:07

on and then head as I see true too young

25:10

women. Yeah, I

25:12

think it's It's like very interesting because.

25:15

You. Know this this you offensive for some bowie

25:17

total other how it impacts. Men in

25:19

Terms remember result of image they're Kyle's

25:21

com possibly can ship with the world,

25:23

the people around them but also then

25:26

that the people who they are in

25:28

part by the hundreds of the girls

25:30

and women in their life. As a

25:32

lot of this Discontents talks about who's.

25:35

Very. Very rigid drinks non biologically

25:37

ingredient and for hims a lot of

25:39

it is shaped me into their sexuality.

25:43

Or is. Worthy of

25:45

you. The women have this order. Believe

25:47

the six that they should submit to

25:49

Men. And. If you're going through

25:52

the world into her limits your life to.view

25:54

I think you can have really good. Sawyer.

25:57

Consequences. And M P's or ideology is that

25:59

we know. A lot of

26:01

violence against women and so

26:03

ingrained. isn't young man from

26:05

her aging package and is

26:07

is quite worried and and

26:09

I'm still also an increase

26:11

to fluoridation. I think between.

26:14

Boys. And girls of it for me.

26:16

Ah, it's Am Sunday and the Uk

26:18

Rent would undertake a bag. And

26:21

it was like fifty percent of young men felt

26:23

positive a pet him and one percent of girls

26:25

did. So we're seeing this kind of. Much

26:28

more polarization of girls are can access.

26:30

it says hotter and feminism and this

26:32

have them being a bit more. Aggressive.

26:35

A transgender I'm Than. A

26:37

lot of not only young man but some

26:40

manner feeling got a kind of a lot

26:42

of of privilege and getting sick so I

26:44

think that kind of polarization is also. An.

26:48

Employee I think I I I kind of

26:50

suffered colourful that kind of sentencing Sultan school

26:52

for a lot he i thought i don't

26:55

know he saw they and series that Rishi

26:57

Sadler days out a with the North Sea

26:59

series where he and did some kind of

27:01

sex ads in a school. He worked in

27:03

the same school for several weeks and there

27:06

were some exchanges between the boys and girls.

27:08

are for really interesting because and. You.

27:10

Know. There. Were

27:12

things that though the girls thought that the boys

27:14

that we should be obvious to the boys that

27:17

would be hurtful to them and the boys genuinely

27:19

kind of only realizing that when it with very

27:21

clearly outlined to them there did seem to be

27:23

a disconnect there. Now in the boys are think

27:25

the came around and by day but that this

27:27

connection is concerning isn't as I kind of can't

27:30

help but wonder. and I'm not suggesting I you

27:32

like. I don't expect you to be expert on

27:34

this but I can't help but wonder how positive

27:36

it is that so many schools are segregated A

27:38

by Sachs these days because I know my husband

27:41

for example. oh he says. He went to boys,

27:43

girls, anything that with the worst possible thing for him

27:45

because he didn't six that he didn't know any women

27:47

as people have a as I from his kind of

27:49

relatives or whatever and it meant that when he got

27:51

to college she kind of hot women on a weird

27:53

pedestal and he didn't really know how to interact with

27:56

them and if. We're being polarized if young

27:58

men and women are being. Pilloried said he. That

28:00

dance And they don't actually. Interact with

28:02

each other that much until they got

28:04

to be adults in australia.com because. Yeah

28:07

I do think there is, you know, a

28:09

lot of conversation, a recent still married sort

28:12

of single sex golden something that I think

28:14

we talk a little than the in there

28:16

longer reporters and and I do think that's.

28:19

Nice. I. Went to an

28:21

all girls part me skill and I genuinely

28:24

had not. Map wasn't my own agents elixir.

28:26

it's gonna with like. This

28:28

yeah you know I have a third strange

28:30

way to go through life as as I

28:32

do think that you know that lot of

28:34

put into things aren't aren't We have one

28:36

of the highest rates of single said schools

28:38

and some great records request sensitive topics bring

28:40

up the people are quite as the better

28:42

here and think it's something that like took

28:45

me to be moved away from because nothing

28:47

else and like that sucks I grew energy

28:49

them. yeah yeah I mean I'm I'm I'm

28:51

kind of a myth. And anomaly

28:53

and are them because I went to only make

28:55

schools and through my education so I don't know

28:57

what it's like and then sometimes I kind of

28:59

us thought oh how nice it would be to

29:01

see with women than just the with girls. But

29:03

you know I think at the end of the

29:06

day as you say real life isn't like that.

29:08

So what are we doing? M. You

29:10

obviously you were to the anti

29:12

bullying center I'm interested to know

29:14

kind is about gender based bullying

29:16

that's happening in schools these days.

29:18

If I usually take shape. And

29:22

so I'm not an expert bully

29:24

myself, my spine area, or sorry

29:26

elitist. Yeah, and when I. Do.

29:30

Think like us to be like a lot of gender

29:32

based bullies. Woods. In.

29:36

Schools. Is often to do

29:39

with sea breeze kind of resources

29:41

to return to rule because it's

29:43

I. Am Dumping

29:45

syndrome which is like an. Clear

29:47

in warm, she didn't send enough.

29:57

Comes up loss and. Or

30:01

it doesn't think they for any employee

30:03

with the train of thought about that

30:05

show and or t and is really.

30:08

Interesting for you said about these bullies. not. Could.

30:10

Have not been abuse realization that them when

30:12

they are brought them kind of things that

30:14

situation you know I think it is important

30:17

we can switch when the servers politics have

30:19

open conversations that boys that fear of judgment

30:21

because I think some topic for guess that

30:23

this can be the first time boys a

30:25

hearing practice of us are trying to bring

30:28

bought these conversations it can kind of feel

30:30

like they're making this kind of this and.

30:33

He's kind of city at decisions that often.

30:36

They haven't even had conversations with. What might be

30:38

the first conversation? They. Have with someone around gender

30:41

or sexuality where the kind of content

30:43

are drawn to online and often when

30:45

the cops isn't are slide into nonjudgmental

30:47

way you can open to criticism. So

30:49

items of a ring for an appointed

30:51

to the mind when people are. You

30:53

know if they have the of men their life. Having

30:55

this conversation that empathetic, nonjudgmental way

30:58

is a really positive thing because.

31:00

We. All had how the conversation for first time.

31:03

I'm not going to get it right for

31:05

well yeah so image food is it. Like

31:07

obviously I think based on what we talked

31:10

about, it seems like. You. Know

31:12

education is is absolutely crucial. Education in

31:14

schools Bet if you're someone who's listening

31:16

and you have a succeed eighty or

31:18

boy in your house or you know

31:20

in your family any in your in

31:22

your world somehow and you want to

31:24

kind of opened the door for this

31:26

kind of conversation that he think is

31:28

the best way to address. Brief

31:31

think. Having. Open.

31:35

Dialogue I think empathy and nos kind

31:37

of shutting it down. This is kind

31:39

of unspoken thing you can't talk about.

31:41

I think it's also important talk to

31:43

believe that war either to this content

31:45

you know is it.they have some insecurity

31:47

thought was talking to is the kind

31:49

of furniture and accents you know is

31:51

this am something specific I think open

31:53

a dialogue split You know why you

31:55

don't as content. What is the thing

31:58

you're interested in that is. Starting

32:00

a dialogue, also providing other sources of

32:02

information. You know, a lot of this

32:04

content relies on misinformation around and to

32:07

her, yeah, that's biologically ingrained of the

32:09

only that talking points and it's a

32:11

lot of really great resources out there.

32:14

Was gonna come to them and quite

32:17

nice. plays some kind of pointing them

32:19

gently of information nos kind of shutting

32:21

it down. The conversation is Sam. It's

32:23

difficult because the com philo. Especially.

32:26

You know if you're woman you feel very

32:28

hard but it's content Can be really difficult

32:30

to do yeah but I do things with

32:32

with him people. it is important. Kind of

32:34

open those lines of conversation though. there was

32:36

only going to the sources. Yeah yeah, I

32:39

think it is hard because it's the most

32:41

of business and a can for impersonal? yeah?

32:44

And I've been going through the Clintons. I

32:46

had to watch the sunset over and over

32:48

again for hours and days. It's not a

32:51

pleasant experience. It's not a nice worldview to

32:53

be embedded in. It's not offer the world

32:55

in that sense. And then when you're

32:57

a woman watching that and knowing how

32:59

you felt the wrong end of this

33:02

thread society night between on your life

33:04

by it's really affecting am sleep. I

33:06

think it's like it's possible the whole

33:08

those to see them but it's impacts

33:11

man by the materials influx women yes

33:13

and we need to keep women in

33:15

mind. Items you know, keep women dialogue

33:17

minute conversations as well because. We're.

33:21

Also important. It's.

33:27

Do you think it's an exaggeration

33:29

to say that there is a

33:31

connection between this kind of internet

33:33

activity on to the actual violence

33:35

against women in our daily lives.

33:39

I think it's hard to make. Those

33:42

specific. Causal. Link

33:44

because we don't have access

33:46

to the youth. Is this

33:48

information? Select things like insult

33:50

forum for traditional nice Therefore,

33:53

We only wanted to hear about these. Acts

33:56

of violence like like a mass shooters

33:58

like yeah. extreme. Well publicized

34:01

am the findings which are caused

34:03

by the males the premises ideology.

34:05

I kind of. Wrapping.

34:08

Up under an enticement a rucksack.

34:10

the scripts and. So.

34:12

You know in those cases and massages

34:15

ideology male supremacy to. Women

34:17

in I can going to say that the people who can.

34:19

See my teeth content? are going to

34:22

glance yeah and I'm women foolish. We

34:24

know that. Against Women

34:26

is underscored by decide to be a male

34:28

supremacy. Sort of were normalizing, amplifying

34:30

this ideology on alert and scale.

34:33

And. I also think if it's if it's important

34:35

to send what we need by violence and often

34:37

sometimes the only the pilots us. The

34:40

Corner: Someone to talk about violence?

34:42

Accept the many blaze Muslim and

34:44

sexual violence. Even

34:46

just kind of the way in which military

34:48

an online Until I thought you know I

34:50

I know who you know even in a.

34:53

Repair. Think my tweet online. As women

34:55

getting all this kind of backlash that

34:57

awful form of like ginger bases so

35:00

proliferates in this much more and thrown

35:02

down by an authentic even just like

35:04

sitting the her and in buying all

35:07

this the toxic content abuse. We've.

35:12

Been don't you? So I do. You think we

35:14

need to open up what we I think often?

35:16

When I have conversational people saying only no one

35:19

goes on to do learned from this is think

35:21

we need to rethink. What we'd be.

35:25

Financially. Motivated by which

35:27

offered his name? Yeah,

35:31

So do you think it's You know if someone

35:33

sitting down to dinner tonight having listened to this.

35:36

Is an opening gambit kind of. Are

35:39

now. Have you heard of Agitate Like A thought?

35:41

A good way to open the conversation. I I

35:44

like sorry I don't I don't want to put

35:46

you on the spot, but I also really would

35:48

love people to leave. This is something tangible that

35:50

they could do. I hate.

35:53

I. Think it's and maybe not that it was

35:55

me just. Spit balling here cause. I

35:58

sing dance, It. The

36:00

Be. Instead of. Showcasing.

36:02

Often undertake a kind of and white

36:05

the the i'm saying is because Andrea

36:07

Andrea since I'm pointing even talking about

36:09

you know when the online will kind

36:11

of content. You're looking as I know hundred make

36:14

the. Dog Yeah is absolutely confident I feel comfortable

36:16

with you. Think thoughtless you know it's there are

36:18

parts of it that makes you feel a certain

36:20

way. the other kind of think you'll have of

36:22

information about the and that I'm leaving the door

36:24

for them to print of comfy with that we

36:27

as a senior from ancient now if you don't

36:29

want to also pushed down towards I know exactly.

36:31

Actually as I said that I was like maybe

36:33

that's not a good idea of under to throwing

36:35

essential to someone may be who they don't know

36:37

about Suck it up the next time. Delicate balancing

36:40

when old and the researchers lot of wanting spotted

36:42

and had been on for fine further limit. Lots.

36:44

Of like far right wanted to

36:46

blow via the my seat and

36:48

this conversation and wouldn't donuts Credible

36:50

creating space here you'll stay in

36:53

your to talk about online content

36:55

into talk by Gender status of

36:57

much coffee. Exists.

37:01

It's a small seconds. On each side to the

37:03

lamp that you conversations are these ideas on asked.

37:10

And. Toil on his

37:12

with women and well thank you so much.

37:14

I think that's really useful Ons I hear

37:16

that that will help people to feel more

37:18

empowered hopefully when they're having these conversations with

37:20

our kids are brothers or whoever it is

37:22

in their life and aren't coming to say.

37:24

I'm just so glad that there are people

37:26

like you doing this work because sometimes it's

37:28

very easy to kind of justice in. put

37:30

your hand, your hands on the if you're

37:32

like we've lost somehow and in other a

37:34

dark day. certainly. I think for women and

37:36

for people who are concerned about this on

37:38

their it's great know that there are people

37:40

like you. Out there doing the work but

37:43

as he said like I can't imagine it's

37:45

easy so I hope you like take care

37:47

of yourself with in it as well because

37:49

it's gotta be tough some days. Yeah.

37:52

I want to on a reality tv. Oh my

37:54

god who say my i love up for You

37:56

know us? That's totally Michael Irving mechanism of well

37:58

for the world. Thank

38:01

you so much as sox her classroom baker

38:03

of the Dc you anti bullying censor at

38:05

In Dc you obviously and best of luck

38:07

we continued research. Thanks again Ons and thanks.

38:10

For your it. Was

38:12

really. Hairy

38:21

though my friends thank you so much

38:23

for they sing and thank you to

38:25

daughter Catherine Baker for her printing contribution.

38:27

I would love to second Macarthur like

38:29

every month has since attack and see

38:31

how things are you on improvements and

38:33

any new thing we need to worry

38:35

about because I think that this area

38:37

just in a in a we really

38:39

need to pay attention to at frankly

38:41

for the good of men and women

38:43

am now I'm gonna go as i

38:45

as a thief I'm straight in my

38:47

face because I have went and got

38:49

absolutely ginormous long nails put. On today

38:51

I am obsessed with them am I

38:53

will be posting a photo tomorrow night

38:55

because tomorrow is the Vip silence and

38:58

I speak to you in his nine

39:00

thirty on Thursday nights on damn at

39:02

Gotta Look plans and I'm very much

39:04

looking forward to it at A So

39:06

I will bring you all of the

39:08

gossip from the the eyepiece onwards on

39:10

Monday I can tell you it's always.

39:12

A really fun night! So famous looking for to.

39:14

Lot to do come back to me or Monday. I'll bring

39:17

you the news, the actual news and I'll give you a

39:19

little. Bit of gossip from. The.

39:21

Glitziest night in the calendar or Nevada through. But

39:23

anyway, thank you so much for being with me.

39:26

I very very much appreciate you. I very

39:28

much appreciate you being here. Please you If you

39:30

like the cost share on tell friends about

39:32

it. it makes such a huge difference and I

39:34

will talk to you on Monday. Thank you

39:36

so much It costs us being on the pockets

39:38

to date and you so it's a cast

39:40

for having a on the network help you have

39:43

a lovely weekend but other I always say

39:45

that council be lovely and that's okay. Put one

39:47

foot in front of the other, an autopsy

39:49

one month. Ah,

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41:35

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41:37

For It Tough. The theory.