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up on the latest episodes without

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the ads. Hello,

1:18

my friend, and welcome to the Friday

1:20

edition of Catch Up With Louise McSharry.

1:22

This is the interview and

1:24

I am

1:26

delighted to be bringing it to you

1:28

at the end of this short week.

1:30

I don't know about you. I find

1:32

bank holiday weeks harder

1:35

in many ways than normal weeks because

1:38

work just doesn't, I mean for me anyway, it doesn't work anymore.

1:40

Like if you have a day off, you have a day off.

1:42

It just means you have to do five days worth of work

1:44

in four. Anyway, I

1:47

won't go on about that. I'm very glad to be at

1:49

the end of this week and I hope you are too.

1:51

I hope you've had a good one, but if not, no

1:53

worries. That's behind us now. I

1:56

am delighted. Thank you so much to all of you

1:58

who have already bought tickets for the The latter name's

2:00

Ivan. It's a live show in the last names

2:02

on May ninth and really looking forward to that.

2:04

It is going to be if you like the

2:07

pockets you like at like the plot is, see

2:09

it on is leaning certainly at least in part

2:11

to the last are part of the last two

2:13

nights name so I think we're gonna have a

2:15

lot of fun. On them. I'm really excited about

2:17

it. I would love to see their tickets are

2:19

available Now look at the link in the show

2:21

notes. On Das. Other than

2:24

that, no major news. As for me, in

2:26

the two days since I spoke to you,

2:28

what did I do? What my to? Oh

2:30

I went last. Night actually I went to

2:32

the launch of an. Incentive for rocks and

2:34

skincare. Brown skin greedy it's new products

2:36

and then of you guys know Jennifer

2:38

Rock. He's also known as the Skin

2:40

or it's obviously. I write of Beauty

2:42

com for years independent weekend magazine and

2:44

I love beauty so I have very

2:46

much have my ear to the grade

2:48

when it comes to nice of and

2:50

beauty and spans old stuff as laughs

2:52

and but Jennifer Rock is. Honestly I

2:54

think one. Of the most credible

2:57

aren't trustworthy people in beauty

2:59

and. Or then. And when she launched

3:01

ingredients was by five years ago I think

3:03

and she launched it with. The Core: The

3:05

core for she calls it with for products

3:07

skincare products that kind of cord most the

3:09

bases that you would require. When

3:12

it comes your skin and then she had an

3:14

earnest anything new since then and so when she

3:16

did and I said she was doing a new

3:18

products I knew was can be a big deal

3:21

because you know to make money. In Beauty

3:23

people are pumping out new products. All the.

3:25

Time because that's how you get press coverage.

3:27

That's how you get tic toc made about

3:29

you that are you guys Attention basically is

3:31

with new new new new new and you'll

3:33

see that there are some brands of seem

3:35

to have a new product out every two

3:37

months. Sense of room with me and and

3:40

or nothing about I don't like a lot

3:42

of those products I do but like the

3:44

pace can be pre frenzied were eyes and

3:46

you know Jennifer spent four years developing this

3:48

new products which is an A retinal will

3:50

threaten or into strength so I guess it's

3:52

kind of to to products the point six

3:54

percent in one presents. Retinal. Ah, and am

3:56

I've been using it for while? I actually

3:59

think it's really great. I really like Jennifer on

4:01

a personal level. This isn't an odd at all.

4:05

Like no money has been exchanged. She hasn't asked me to

4:07

do this, but I just really like and trust

4:09

her. And it was great to go and celebrate

4:11

that new product with her last life. Excuse

4:15

me, if you don't use retinol and

4:17

you're a woman of a certain age or a man of a certain

4:19

age or a non-binary person of a certain age and

4:22

you are concerned about your skin, you don't have

4:24

to be. You don't owe anybody eternal youth or

4:27

pretty or anything else. But

4:29

if you are someone who would like to spend

4:32

your life working toward having the skin of a baby

4:34

infant like me, retinol is

4:37

definitely something you should consider having

4:39

in your routine. But

4:41

this is not the place for that. That's

4:43

the beauty column. That's where that lives. But that's

4:45

the main thing that I've done between the last

4:47

time I spoke to you and now aside from

4:49

work. Anyway, let's get into this interview. So I

4:51

was really happy to speak to Mark Megan about

4:53

his new book. It is called, This Is Not

4:56

A Self-Help Book, but it might just help you.

5:00

It came through my door a few months

5:02

ago and I picked it up one day

5:04

kind of casually and I ended up

5:06

reading almost the entire thing in one go. It's

5:09

not the kind of book that I would normally gravitate

5:11

toward. I don't tend to like anything

5:13

that feels kind of inspirational, even though sometimes I'm

5:15

wrong about it and sometimes I miss out on

5:17

really good stuff that way. But

5:20

I just found this book really frank and

5:23

raw and honest in a way that

5:25

was very moving

5:27

and I was excited to talk to Mark.

5:30

Now, I wanna be very clear about

5:32

this conversation because I started it in the wrong

5:34

way. So

5:37

Mark is going out with Darren Garrahey. Sorry,

5:40

he's engaged to Darren Garrahey. And I know Darren

5:42

from, to a firm obviously, from work. So

5:45

I said, at the start, you'll hear. It

5:48

does not go down well. I basically say, I

5:50

only, you know, I wasn't familiar with you before

5:52

this. Like, I only knew you

5:54

as Darren's kind of Darren's fella, but

5:57

I meant that more as a Darren, a person I

5:59

know, to Deering the very, very

6:01

famous person. And obviously, Mark does

6:03

not want to be branded Deering Gary Hayes'

6:05

fella in his normal life. And

6:08

so he was like, oh no, she's going to talk about

6:10

Deering now and this whole conversation. And that wasn't my plan. So

6:12

I set it off in the wrong way. I messed it

6:14

up, guys. I messed it up, but I'm keeping it in. I

6:16

could have edited it out, but I'm not. I'm going to

6:18

keep it in because I think what

6:20

happens is really interesting. And you know,

6:22

myself and Mark have a great conversation.

6:25

And what comes up in that

6:27

conversation is something that I've actually never

6:29

heard anybody else verbalize, aside from the

6:31

important stuff that we talk about because

6:33

Mark's book is about his experience with

6:35

addiction. And he speaks

6:37

about it in a really, I think, helpful and

6:39

frank way. And you know, we talk,

6:43

I think when we hear about addiction, we generally think about

6:45

it as being something that, you know, happens in older people's

6:47

lives, but it's not. And you

6:49

know, Mark was very young when he

6:51

had to come to terms with the fact that he needed to give up on

6:53

drugs and drink. But anyway,

6:55

there's a point where me and Mark

6:58

acknowledge something that happens that

7:00

I experience and I had never spoken

7:03

about before. And that is the feeling

7:05

of self-consciousness when you are speaking, even

7:07

like for me speaking now, or

7:10

if I'm speaking on my Instagram stories, or if I'm

7:12

doing an interview, it's knowing that

7:14

what you say may be taken

7:16

out of context and turned into

7:18

a story on

7:20

another website or in another newspaper. It

7:24

doesn't really happen to me anymore, actually. I think

7:26

since I left over to you, the newspapers aren't interested in me

7:28

anymore, which is absolutely fine with me. And

7:30

but you know, if you've sometimes you would have

7:32

a conversation with a journalist, you know, and they

7:35

would write a lovely piece, and it would be

7:37

very much, you know, on the basis

7:39

of what you spoke about in the tone of the conversation.

7:41

But then another journalist or

7:43

someone online might take one

7:45

sentence from that and turn

7:47

that into something really scandalous, take it out of context.

7:49

And then all of a sudden, it's, you

7:52

know, this big horrible story where the spotlight

7:54

is shone on one comment that you

7:56

made in five seconds, and you know, then

7:58

your whole family's upset because it's... about them

8:00

and you didn't even realize you'd said anything about

8:02

them and it's just a thing that can spiral.

8:05

And the result of that, I've seen it happen with

8:07

so many of my friends as well. And the result

8:09

of that is that you start to become very self-conscious

8:11

and guarded. And it's very

8:13

hard to have a normal conversation or just

8:15

go on your Instagram stories and be normal. By

8:18

the way, people's comments as well feed

8:20

into this. Like for me on social

8:22

media, people sending you mean comments. You

8:25

start to edit yourself and you can't be as unafranc,

8:28

unan honest as you may be initially

8:30

were and that might have been the

8:32

very thing that kind of attracted people to you. But now

8:34

all of a sudden you don't feel like you can be

8:36

yourself. It's a weird, weird

8:39

thing of this bizarre world

8:42

that we live in of having a minor profile.

8:44

As I said, people aren't really interested in me

8:47

anymore. So I'm from my people who

8:49

I love, our community here and

8:51

the like. And that's a much better place to be actually

8:53

for me and I must prefer that. But

8:56

anyway, I think it's interesting to hear

8:58

the conversation between myself and Mark and

9:00

hear us settle into it and become

9:02

comfortable with each other and Mark acknowledge

9:04

that tension there and that self-consciousness that

9:06

he has as a result of having

9:08

had those experiences before. But

9:12

we do also obviously get to what's in the

9:14

book and what's in the book is important. And

9:17

I think that if you're someone who's maybe in the early

9:19

days of acknowledging that you might have a problem with

9:21

drugs or alcohol, I think you'll find it helpful. I think

9:23

you would find the book helpful genuinely. As

9:26

he says, the title says it's not a self-help

9:28

book. It's not an instructional manual at all. And

9:30

Mark really is at great pains to point out

9:32

that his experience is just one person's experience. He's

9:35

not an expert. He doesn't claim to be. He's just,

9:37

you know, he thinks that his experience might be helpful

9:39

to other people. And I think it will because I

9:42

think that particularly if you're a young person, it

9:44

can be very hard to face up to the

9:46

fact that unfortunately you don't respond to

9:48

booze in the

9:50

same way as your friends. And that while

9:52

maybe your friends can have a few drinks, you just

9:54

can't. I think that that's a really hard thing to

9:57

confront and come to terms with. And I think that

9:59

Mark's... book might help you with that. Anywho,

10:02

I have now babbled on for almost nine minutes. I

10:05

am terribly sorry. Let's get into the

10:07

interview. Well, Mark, I'm going

10:09

to be totally honest with you because that is

10:11

the way of me and say

10:14

that I was not familiar with you

10:17

until I learned of you through Deryn.

10:20

Is that a terrible thing to say? Is that something that you're

10:22

encountering a lot these days? Some

10:27

people, yeah, I mean, like Deryn's hugely

10:29

successful. So there are lots

10:31

of people that will only be hearing about me due

10:33

to the exposure of being in a relationship with her.

10:35

So no, that's not sad. It's not strange by any

10:37

means. Well, obviously I worked with Deryn, so I

10:40

keep an eye on her, as many other

10:42

people do in this world of social media. But

10:45

the reason that I wanted to contextualize this is because

10:47

I wanted to say that because

10:49

then I hope you'll believe me when I

10:52

say that when I read your book, I

10:54

was so incredibly impressed. I didn't know anything

10:56

about you or your career or what you've

10:58

done up to this point. But I sat

11:00

down and started reading your book and I

11:03

read it essentially

11:05

in one sitting, which is not something that happens

11:07

for me very often. I have ADHD, so focus

11:10

is not my strong source.

11:12

So I was coming in

11:14

kind of completely neutral, if

11:17

you know what I mean, and I was so

11:19

impressed by it. So maybe you can start by

11:21

telling people who haven't read the book or who

11:23

maybe aren't familiar with you. What's the book about?

11:28

So I suppose the book is

11:30

about self discovery, really, largely

11:34

centering around my addiction to alcohol

11:37

and also drugs, which

11:41

until I came into recovery, I didn't think

11:43

I had a drug problem, to be brutally

11:45

honest. I only thought that and

11:47

I still doubt whether or not I

11:50

had an alcohol problem. And on

11:53

my bad days, I still doubt whether or not

11:55

I have an alcohol problem. Well,

11:57

that's the way of the beast business. This

12:00

is a check. For. Me to

12:02

Hell and the only disease where it tells you that you

12:04

don't have a good i think from what I've. Heard.

12:06

From other people and Swofford with eating

12:09

disorders that might. Fall. Into

12:11

that category as well. I don't know.

12:13

And so the book is. It.

12:16

Saw a navigate. It's basically me

12:18

navigation my way through. The. Early

12:21

days of sobriety. Reconciling.

12:24

With.monumental change in nice but then

12:26

in order to to get to

12:28

their a half the documents I

12:31

suppose the thing that brought me

12:33

to recall for an ak drinking

12:35

alcohol likely. And. Miss

12:37

using drugs and. Das

12:39

in itself is is to lose premise

12:41

of debacle within us and within those

12:43

chapters and. It's

12:46

about me. As I

12:48

ultimately trying to discover and.

12:51

Failed. A with myself. And

12:54

why did he was a. Cycle.

12:56

On his into. Well,

12:59

yeah, just because it does. Father said

13:01

I didn't really have. would you know

13:03

I didn't have a good relationship with

13:05

my cellphone Employer doesn't let me do

13:07

a double. I

13:11

cells. I. Was well, eighteen

13:13

months sober. And I

13:15

felt. Like. I had one

13:17

foot my a lot of some one foot

13:19

in the New life and I mean on

13:21

a comedian and you know lots of my

13:24

contents. We is me wrote was me roasting

13:26

things on Instagram on i just felt. I

13:28

felt strange or felt like of this

13:31

is just so surface level versus what

13:33

actually going on in my life and

13:35

and is a huge sums paying have

13:37

been in recovery and I also swiveled

13:39

a lot with you know. Lots

13:41

of people think that once you put the drink ten, that.

13:44

You're. Off to the races you know to

13:46

mean on their lives just falls into

13:48

the place. Ensure x person doesn't drink

13:50

anymore because I suppose. for non

13:52

alcoholic the idea of not drinking isn't probably

13:55

that big a deal you know what's or

13:57

you know people people get pregnant they stopped

13:59

drinking for and however many months, you know,

14:01

these things happen, people have medical conditions, you know.

14:05

So I found myself in

14:07

this weird place after 18 months where

14:09

as I say, I was

14:11

just in this limbo and

14:13

I had so much inside me that I felt

14:16

like I wasn't tapping into any

14:18

therapy, wasn't really helping and sorry,

14:20

therapy was absolutely helping, but in

14:22

regards to getting out this sort

14:24

of mess that was inside

14:26

me, I just needed to

14:29

write. I mean, like look, I've always written since

14:31

I was a child, you know, be it music,

14:33

be it poetry, be it songs, be it comedy

14:37

obviously and then I

14:39

just needed to get, I needed to connect with

14:41

some sense of, I don't know, blur

14:44

it all out and figure out

14:47

where I am and I suppose who I am.

14:49

Now, that's not to say that I have figured

14:51

out who I am, you know,

14:53

that's the lifelong journey I suppose, but it

14:56

really helped. I have

14:58

to say, like I've written a book and I write

15:00

as well and I think that blurting

15:02

it all out kind of writing when it

15:04

comes to this kind of experiential stuff is

15:06

so, I think it's one of the

15:09

best writing because it's really true. It's not something that

15:11

you've, and I'm not suggesting that it's easy, but like

15:13

it's not something that you have to kind of really

15:15

work to choose the right words because it just kind

15:17

of comes out of you. Was that your experience of

15:20

writing this then? I

15:22

still find it tough to be honest because I

15:26

have to, you know, when writing about addiction for me, I

15:29

have to look at what voice is doing the writing, do

15:31

you know what I mean? And it's

15:33

also a very, it's

15:37

a line that I wanted to tread carefully and it's

15:39

even why I'm probably a little bit guarded on this

15:41

call, you know, is because

15:44

my biggest fear would be that I come

15:46

across like I'm speaking for other alcoholics or

15:48

I'm speaking to anybody else's experience other than

15:50

my own or that just because I am

15:52

an alcoholic, that that gives me some form

15:54

of, you know, profound insight

15:56

into addiction that other, like, you

15:58

know, that gives me, have an

16:00

authority and I mentioned that in the book like

16:02

I'm not an authority on addiction, I'm not an

16:04

authority on alcoholism. It's purely my

16:06

experience but even within that you I did

16:09

want to be careful because like I

16:11

didn't want to upset anybody and I also you

16:13

know I didn't want to upset people that I

16:15

know who care about me so you know it's

16:18

uh it's well it's easily on the bad days

16:20

I can very easily slip into self-pity mode and

16:23

I wanted to make sure when writing this book that

16:25

that was not the case that this isn't just a

16:27

woe is me because everybody has their

16:30

own shit and on a daily basis I

16:32

talk to people whose problems utterly dwarf the

16:34

fact that they cannot have a drink that

16:36

day so you know I I also wanted

16:39

to write with the perspective of like this

16:41

is my shit things were really bad things

16:43

are better but it's not the be all

16:45

and end all it's not the answer they're

16:47

you know well it's just

16:50

some experiences. I think you really succeed with

16:52

that though it doesn't feel like a pity party it doesn't

16:54

feel but you and it doesn't feel like you think that

16:56

you're somehow like you know unique or special in

16:58

this experience like it comes across I think you

17:00

really have succeeded in that is what I'm saying

17:03

and so obviously for people who haven't read the book

17:06

at what stage did you first think that

17:08

drinking might have been a problem for you?

17:12

I'm pretty sure early on in my 20s well

17:14

sorry I know I know the the first time

17:16

I took action I was 18 I had

17:19

moved to Brighton I was

17:21

so young and I didn't realize of course I didn't

17:24

at the time when I was 18 I thought I

17:26

was you know the man who knew the world I

17:28

knew everything and and that's

17:30

when I moved to Brighton to study music

17:32

and I was drinking every day and just

17:34

beer but it was becoming problematic and I

17:36

was drinking to other times in my teens

17:38

I was drinking to enhance feelings I was

17:40

drinking to feel more connected to feel more

17:42

like a belong part of a group to

17:44

be able To dance at a

17:46

disco, you know to be able to wrap my

17:48

arms around one of the lads and sing a

17:50

song and just to to lose those inhibitions and

17:52

to feel like I was part of every that

17:54

you know. As I frequently mentioned this everybody to

17:56

feel like I was one of everybody whereas when

17:59

I went to Brighton. When I was drinking

18:01

to came to Athena yeah you know and

18:03

that sort of dumb additional element were rather

18:05

than drinking to enhance your drinking to sort

18:07

of. Took. Down, the racy mind

18:09

and the talk and the worries and

18:11

whatever. And it was around, yeah, maybe

18:13

three or four months in and that

18:16

sort of for I was having panic

18:18

attacks by Decay as Actively or M

18:20

and then drinking by nice. But. It

18:22

Again, it wasn't all the doldrums like I'm

18:24

still doing normal inverted commas. Teenage.

18:27

Things you know, so what? It could

18:29

be mistaken for just normal uni party

18:31

and I am. And I went

18:33

to the doctor and I sort of said listen,

18:35

I think I'm going a drinking problem modric, an

18:37

everyday occurrence. And. That's the thing that

18:40

scared me was that I would. I would say

18:42

I want to stop and then I wouldn't do

18:44

that on. So. Even if I was only having

18:46

a few beers and provide that it would everyday it will.

18:48

I'm not good. you have to nice within. You

18:50

know, Moroccan? mysteriously. It would

18:53

happen. So I went to the doctor, I told

18:55

them ah yeah and I he said to me

18:57

listen, you know there's you need. There's lots of

18:59

Sophie I think we should talk about that. You

19:01

need to maybe work on as I don't necessarily

19:03

think you're an alcoholic. Yes, On a

19:06

course you know I was also the

19:08

race and the got word yes and

19:10

start me for fifteen years afterwards. You

19:12

know then there was always be yeah

19:14

as long as something hadn't happened. Yes

19:16

you know I was okay because the

19:18

girlfriend hadn't left me, I hadn't lost

19:20

the job or a hadn't done this

19:22

or Adam does. But once one thing

19:24

would happen it would just shift again.

19:26

Yeah so that's what I was eighteen

19:28

and then doctors pay. I embarked on

19:30

a journey old. am I your offer

19:32

my not familiar. am I not for

19:35

the. For. Literally. by Okay so

19:37

eighteen to thirty one? I'm so bad

19:39

about. Thirteen years

19:41

since last. Yeah, Six or. Twelve

19:43

or thirteen years of. On.

19:45

Simply. Dealing. With this

19:47

am I? Where am I not on? it's. It's.

19:50

you know wouldn't think that a lot

19:52

of by with alcoholics is dot you

19:55

know normal people they don't do this

19:57

they don't settle often a class to

19:59

perpetually changed themselves that they are not

20:01

alcoholic because that's the

20:03

obsession. You know, normal

20:05

inverted commas people aren't consumed

20:08

by the amount of alcohol. And

20:11

when the alcohol is coming, when they last, the

20:13

fact that it's now been 36 hours since

20:15

I've had a drink, look at how great I am. I'm

20:17

not an alcoholic. I haven't had a drink since Friday. If

20:20

I was an alcoholic, I would have drank on Saturday. But

20:22

I was able to do this. And, you know, all of

20:24

these permanent, like, not rules,

20:26

but loopholes, gymnastics to try and

20:28

figure out and justify the continued,

20:31

like it all. So

20:33

I get a bit messed up when I talk about it, but it

20:36

all just comes to reasons

20:38

to keep me drink. Yeah. You

20:41

know, and that is

20:43

I mean, that is how it continues. And like

20:45

I was really impressed by you don't hold back.

20:47

Like, you know, it doesn't seem like, which I

20:49

think is you

20:52

know, a sign of how well you're doing in your

20:54

recovery that you. Sorry,

20:56

I have a lot of experience with alcoholism in

20:58

my life, not me personally, but in my family.

21:01

And I've been through a lot of therapy and I've

21:03

been to a lot of treatment centers to support people

21:05

in my life. So I'm not an expert at all

21:07

by any stretch, but I know a little bit. And

21:10

for me, the fact that you were so

21:12

honest in the book about some of the situations

21:14

that you find yourself in or the situations

21:16

you created for yourself and, you

21:18

know, with a really positive indicator of how

21:20

your recovery is going, because, you know,

21:22

in my experience, sometimes people can really struggle

21:24

to face up to the reality of what

21:27

happened when they were drinking. Thank

21:30

you. I think it's important

21:33

for me selfishly. I think it's

21:35

most important for me to write

21:37

down those embarrassing, shameful,

21:39

ugly, ugly sides, because on the

21:41

day that on the day that

21:43

that day creeps in, I

21:46

just have to remember, OK, do

21:48

you think that that is normal drinking mark? Do you

21:51

think if you go back out, you're going to be

21:53

able to be normal? You know, and. I

21:57

try and be as rigorously honest as possible when it

21:59

comes. to the things

22:01

that I did to protect myself

22:04

from the illusion that another drink

22:06

is a good idea, but also

22:08

that there are probably other

22:10

people out there who find themselves in

22:12

that sort of grey, and I keep

22:15

saying it, but grey area of addiction

22:17

wherein they're not without

22:20

a home or they're not on the street and

22:22

that's what they're relying on. I'm

22:25

embarrassed at how archaic my

22:28

thinking was about alcoholism for

22:30

so much of my life

22:32

as a practicing alcoholic, but

22:34

I really did believe that

22:37

it took a park bench with a

22:39

paper bag and that's the only version

22:41

of alcoholism that I knew. I think

22:46

when I wrote this book, and

22:49

I'm not going to lie to you because I'm

22:51

sort of freezing up talking about it now because

22:54

I spoke about it publicly, there was then a number

22:58

of other articles written about it and

23:02

written in waves which are clearly just thinly

23:04

veiled attempts to shame me. And

23:06

I struggle with that.

23:08

I struggle now to be silent about

23:11

that because I think it's dangerous. I

23:13

think it's really, really dangerous when

23:15

somebody does open

23:18

up to then capitalise

23:21

on the sensationist elements of what they've

23:23

opened up about and use that to

23:26

guard our attention

23:29

and clicks. I think it's subhuman,

23:31

but to be less of the pity

23:33

party, I think it's important. Well, no, I

23:36

think, yeah, sorry to pause there because I actually think

23:38

it is good to confront that because anybody

23:41

who's in the public eye in

23:44

any way in Ireland has probably had

23:46

this experience of talking about something in

23:48

one context and then having little bits

23:50

of the story taken out and created

23:52

into something else for a newspaper or

23:54

a website or whatever. And

23:56

you don't have to be famous.

23:59

Like, I remember. the first time it happened to me, I

24:01

was like, who cares? Like, no one cares about this. Like, I'm

24:03

not, you know, I'm not important enough

24:05

to warrant this kind of nonsense. But it is a

24:07

thing that happens. And it's not okay. Because as you

24:10

say, you know, it is

24:12

very generous to be honest and vulnerable

24:14

and share your experience. And then when

24:16

people take advantage of that, it's actually

24:18

really not cool. Do you think so?

24:21

I think that most people

24:23

our age are literate enough

24:25

with the media that they understand that

24:27

things are sensationalized. But what for

24:30

me, it was worry about like older members in

24:32

my family who might see things. This is it.

24:34

Yeah. This like,

24:36

Louis, that is exactly and the worst thing

24:38

is, is that like,

24:41

there are people out there who are directly

24:44

responsible for literally on

24:46

some of my bad days, keeping me afloat. And

24:48

not just keep me away from a drink,

24:51

but keep me like, alive, you know, just

24:53

in one life. And if

24:56

I was to see then, if the

24:58

idea of them reading something that looks

25:00

like I ran to the papers with

25:02

some sort of sensational bullshit, hello, it

25:05

raps me to like, to my core, you know what I

25:07

mean? It's, you can hear my voice,

25:09

it brings up so much like, I

25:12

suppose, a dismay that somebody there's a human being

25:14

out there willing to do that. You know, there's

25:16

a human sitting at their desk on bank, let's

25:18

go. And then also just

25:20

the fact that there are other people

25:22

currently suffering who will go,

25:25

well, well, good luck. You

25:28

know, but I suppose, I,

25:30

you know, I chose to come forward

25:32

about this. And I also chose to

25:34

mention those, you know, some of the

25:37

other dirtier, like problematic, seemingly at the

25:39

time, small things, but that ultimately are

25:41

very significant, you know, aspects of cocaine

25:43

use. And let's call, let's

25:45

call an end. Like, that's the elephant in the

25:47

room here that I'm even avoiding. I'm still embarrassed

25:49

about cocaine, because I

25:52

Feel like I'm comfortable talking to you

25:54

about alcoholism, I'm comfortable introducing to myself

25:56

to strangers as an alcoholic. But When

25:58

cocaine comes into the phrase, On

26:00

the mortified clone, I feel dirty.

26:02

Yeah, I feel like. That's.

26:04

Why force myself to just push through.like

26:07

awkwardness and shade and write about it?

26:09

Because they're We know cocaine is everywhere.

26:11

Like we know, cocaine is everywhere. Like

26:13

every week there's a new article saying

26:15

oh okay, the budget A clubs cocaine

26:18

and the rupee to clubs the sports

26:20

off So me somewhere that cocaine is

26:22

still you know To me and you

26:24

know we know that there's a mental

26:26

health prices in the were in this

26:29

country. a frozen cocaine into that mix

26:31

and see what happens And that's why.

26:33

Like. Those more spine

26:35

things by you know, My. Behavioral

26:37

and doing Coke and stuff. I think it's

26:40

vital because when I was doing Coke. And

26:42

on slandering on I was drowning. Ice.

26:45

I still didn't stop. not alone towards

26:47

like my behavior would again with unique

26:49

to me I thought I'm particularly fond

26:51

of or I am weird or not

26:53

or not either I'm even getting saga

26:55

disrupt his benefit of a young guys

26:57

are not on not like orders and.

27:00

Isolation. Is what kept

27:02

me drinking. and if you know that

27:04

withdrawing I'm stealing different I'm feeling like

27:06

I don't belong and fi missile restored

27:08

and. Having.

27:13

Since I came into recovery. Talking.

27:16

To older people, An older people

27:18

speaking. Fees. Aspirin,

27:23

Own. Spoken things, I'm afraid in the swelled

27:25

with. People. Articulation My darkest

27:27

thought that I'd hails from my

27:29

entire life. That's. What set me

27:32

free? Yeah, I think

27:34

you're articulating not very well. I

27:36

totally understand. Not that.put. that idea

27:38

of shared experience and never set

27:40

up about it because it's so

27:42

unbelievably powerful. But it's the hardest

27:44

thing to do when you're shared.

27:47

Experience is something for rethink, or

27:49

something. Terrifying or

27:51

something. Really dark like. It's very hard

27:53

to say those things that allows. And

27:56

it's not understating it to say that. Insane though

27:58

things out loud. you can really help other people.

28:00

that is a fox. I mean like that is

28:02

improvement over and over and over again. So I

28:04

completely understand why it's so important for you to

28:06

talk. But I also do understand that you would

28:08

have a self consciousness about it because I know

28:10

what it feels like to give an interview and

28:13

also be thinking hey, is this going to be

28:15

taken out of contact them and turned into something

28:17

else And I actually think it's good that Eve

28:19

confronted it here in this conversation. Can I get

28:21

it and I know might might just sip earnestly

28:23

sing the praises of the people who isn't as

28:25

big as they are the best am. So everyone

28:27

who's here in this it listening experience with illness.

28:30

Is. Gonna be is going to completely understand where

28:32

you're coming from. And and I hope there's

28:34

some comfort in not even though we can't control

28:36

what happens then beyond.you know, Force. M

28:38

Are you. So I I feel like I totally

28:41

got your motivation. I'm writing the book though. Obviously you

28:43

feel you've benefited so much from other people sharing their

28:45

experience that you what I you want to give a

28:47

little bit back and I think that's incredible. but I

28:49

also think it is worth confronting the fact that cocaine.

28:51

He. Everywhere and also.drinking to a

28:54

problematic accent is also very

28:56

common in this country and

28:58

look, I love or drinks.

29:00

And I'm not going to pretend like I'm

29:02

a perfect person. Who never had gone

29:04

too far with south but like. I.

29:07

Think. I worry sometimes that our

29:10

attitudes and I were about my own drinking. At

29:12

the whole, like I don't think I'm an alcoholic

29:14

but I do think that I probably drink a

29:16

little bit too much am and I think that

29:18

that is so common in our image that you

29:20

can probably hide within. Not as an alcoholic do

29:22

you think that that's true. I.

29:26

Think see a sweetie? It's

29:28

it's. It's one

29:30

that I think a lot of folks at. On

29:34

often people ask me by grown up

29:36

you know. Same with course abuse drinking

29:38

an Ardent Mart, you know we talk.

29:40

I don't need to feel drinking organs

29:42

about care before you even were only

29:44

you know gone through puberty on Sunday.

29:46

That was my experience and you know,

29:48

drinking just because everybody else was and.

29:51

it would be so doctors aren't tempting

29:54

of times for me to milk the

29:56

culture of ireland arms used us as

29:58

in the sort of arsenal of excuses

30:01

as to why I drank. But

30:04

then to counter that, you know, my best

30:06

friends that I also drank with in those

30:08

fields, they're not alcoholics. Yeah,

30:10

I suppose more what I mean is, if

30:13

you are an alcoholic, within

30:15

the culture, can you

30:18

use that to kind of convince yourself

30:21

that actually you're fine because everybody's doing it? Yeah,

30:24

I certainly did. It's very easy to surrender.

30:26

And I mentioned it in the book, I

30:29

say I have to hide my drinking and

30:31

plain sight. And that's what

30:33

I was, I was almost like arrogant about it,

30:35

because I thought I was staying one step ahead

30:37

of the game. If I was

30:39

drinking alcoholically, I'd be hiding it. You

30:42

know, whereas the fact that I was just going

30:44

out, I was socializing, you know, all of my life

30:46

was just going to gigs going to, you know, work

30:48

things, you know, I was in entertainment. So it was

30:50

all just like events and blah, blah, blah. And

30:52

I just thought I'm just part of this

30:55

is the industry, it's not me. Yeah, you

30:57

know, yeah, so it was very easy. And

30:59

yeah, like, every drinking is people

31:02

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32:28

So. Before I'd a their summers

32:30

are want to ask you but am I

32:32

suppose we should we should confront kind of

32:34

what happened that made you eventually say this

32:36

is a problem I need to deal with.

32:40

Sir I am. I. On

32:43

the range. Twenty eighteen. I.

32:45

Started trying to get sober i myself

32:47

I wasn't healthy blood a problem or

32:49

you just. Get. Sober for a

32:52

week and I'd go swimming every day, go

32:54

running on our be telling literally people in

32:56

supermarkets on our I'm Dragon week you know,

32:58

look at greater him and. He

33:01

would like some sort of was a hamster

33:03

wheel which lasted for yeah for years. You

33:05

know where I'd get sober for tech a

33:08

week ten days than or the great in

33:10

the bay since are there are six weeks

33:12

and then I could go back during the

33:14

week. And is this your first constant that

33:16

yeah as I say hamster wheel regress and

33:18

then released through day in. And

33:20

twenty like at. the efforts to

33:22

get a sober became more amplified

33:24

as the problems became more grave

33:26

internally as well as it externally

33:28

like I was. I was becoming sloppy

33:31

and I was becoming a mass

33:33

and. As somebody says, it

33:35

might not necessarily be always a problem when you

33:37

drink, when men all of your problems come from

33:39

when you drink. Among was my situation you know

33:42

it's not or I was still playing at

33:44

all with my fingernail to decide the about. Well

33:46

I went out last Tuesday. More than happens though.

33:48

see maybe I'm not know college but that's

33:50

just kept ramping up and run been old and

33:52

then. I. find myself

33:54

back in dublin the as in twenty twenty

33:56

i just before called a bit and for

33:58

the duration and co and I on

34:01

again, off again, relationship with alcohol, doing my best

34:03

to get sober. And then it became tougher then

34:05

because I'd be telling so many people that I

34:07

was getting sober that then I have to try

34:10

and tell them why I'm back drinking

34:12

and make it all sound okay. And that requires so

34:14

much effort as well to convincing, oh no, no, no,

34:16

no, it's fine, fine. You know, I see somebody at

34:18

a party and he go, man, you told me that

34:21

you were like really, really struggling two weeks ago. What's

34:23

going on here? Why are you walking? Why are you

34:25

heading into the jacks at nine o'clock at a party

34:27

when you said you were sobering it? So

34:30

that was tough. And then I did

34:32

try, I went to an addiction

34:35

counselor, which I, who I lied to, you

34:37

know, I went to a therapist who I

34:39

lied to and just told them

34:41

again that I was stressed. It was COVID. I

34:43

was just drinking, you know, the odd here and

34:45

there, just everyone's drinking at home because of COVID.

34:48

And then would say just enough for them to go,

34:50

okay, well, it doesn't sound like things are that bad,

34:52

just yes. And then that would be my passport to

34:54

continue on. And it's funny because there

34:56

will be people who will find that hard

34:58

to understand because, you know,

35:01

logically, why would you take yourself to

35:03

an addiction counselor and then lie? I

35:07

understand it. What you want is that

35:09

you're not an alcoholic response. So

35:11

that's what you're trying to get. But you still have

35:14

the actual fear that, you know, inside, deep inside, somehow

35:16

you know that you are. And yeah,

35:18

but it's, it's the addiction, isn't it? That kind of

35:21

plays tricks on you. Yeah,

35:24

it's, it's that voice on the Monday morning.

35:26

It's very easy to say, I'll do anything,

35:28

you know, you can

35:30

section me away from society. I will do

35:32

anything to never drink again. But by Thursday

35:34

evening, when the sun is shining,

35:36

and that's when the actual appointment is booked, all

35:38

of a sudden, yeah, my actually an alcoholic, you

35:40

the guys are drinking in the park this evening,

35:43

every, it's this, everybody just this idea of like,

35:45

oh, my, I look at my phone and everyone

35:47

I talked to was going out drinking that night.

35:49

And I go, who am I

35:51

to sever myself away from

35:53

all of my friends and family? And in

35:55

fact, maybe that's the answer. Maybe I just need

35:57

to be more social and the drinking at

35:59

home. home that the problem, it's COVID,

36:01

maybe if I was actually around people all the time, I

36:03

wouldn't be lonely, I wouldn't be, you know, that's

36:06

just because I'm forever. So then,

36:09

to get to the final drink, as

36:11

it were, I did that for

36:14

a couple of years, you know, I go through all

36:16

of those experiences in the book and some of the

36:18

more harrowing ones. And then I... And

36:21

it is rough, like you can feel, like

36:23

reading it, you can feel the struggle. Like

36:26

I just really felt for you,

36:28

like, and, you

36:30

know, I could, you could feel the self

36:33

loathing that was there, you know, when you

36:35

were trying and failing. And, you

36:37

know, it's, I think it's really

36:39

important that people remember people. I think

36:41

sometimes people think about addiction in very black and white terms.

36:44

And I think it's really important

36:46

that people understand what actually happens. And I think

36:48

that's one of the reasons that I wanted to

36:50

talk to you about this book, because, like,

36:53

it is important that people understand that

36:56

it's not easy and you can

36:58

really want it and still

37:00

not manage to achieve it. So anyway, sorry,

37:02

I interrupted you. Yeah, no,

37:04

you're OK. I think the self-disgust piece is

37:06

really important and that's... It

37:09

takes long while to recover from

37:12

carrying that level of self-disgust on

37:15

a very daily basis. And I still

37:17

am, you know, I can

37:19

very easily, even now with the book, like, I'm

37:22

I can very easily slip into what am I

37:24

doing? And like, I feel a bit too exposed.

37:26

So I get defensive. What am I doing? I'm

37:28

embarrassing myself. I should be ashamed

37:30

of myself. Who the hell am I to start talking? You know,

37:33

and all of those thoughts, by the way, if

37:35

uninterrupted and if I let

37:38

those run for long enough, that will bring me to

37:40

you're better off. You're better off. Yeah. You

37:43

know, fortunately, there's a structure in place now that

37:46

I can get to it pretty early on, but

37:48

it doesn't make it comfortable. Like

37:50

that's I think the certainly

37:52

some people, you know, the idea would be

37:54

just fucking stop. If you're if you're if

37:56

you're so if you keep making such a

37:58

mess, you're like just. stop. Yeah, the

38:01

choice. Yeah, exactly. Whereas

38:03

I hated

38:06

myself. Like I would wake up

38:08

and you know, I was looking in the mirror

38:10

and I would say, stop like scream at

38:12

myself going stop doing this, you have

38:15

to stop. It's not gonna

38:17

happen again. And then it

38:19

happens again. And you're looking at the same

38:21

face in the mirror when you're in the bathroom and

38:23

you're off your head and deep down as a voice

38:25

gone, this isn't good. This isn't good. What goes up

38:27

must come down and lower comes down again. So then

38:30

I was to go back to

38:32

the end, you know, I was doing

38:35

these self composed bouts of sobriety, which were

38:37

like, as I said, I was wearing sobriety

38:39

like a straight jackets, it was awful

38:41

for I didn't, I didn't have

38:44

any concept of addiction other than just quite

38:46

nochles stop doing what you're doing, like literally whipping

38:49

myself, you know, you need to function inside without

38:51

drinking. So just go out there and do it.

38:53

And that was like the darkest. I mean, I

38:55

was better off drinking, I would have been better

38:57

off drinking than being that person because I was

39:00

bitter. I was paranoid. I was

39:03

like, I'm so so angry

39:05

at myself at the world around me. And

39:08

then I also just thought like, what is

39:10

life? How was anybody able to this life

39:12

without a drink? At least then, you know,

39:14

this is my mind at the time, at

39:16

least drinking gives me a respite from all

39:18

of this shit. You know, at least I

39:20

can get away from it all. Whereas this

39:23

is just unbearable. And then you know, so

39:25

I drank again, because that's, that's what I

39:27

do. And it's sort of like, it's at

39:29

that stage, it's not it's not a choice.

39:31

It's just that it's your it's my response

39:33

to dealing with life. Yeah, you know, my

39:35

instinct is to drink, whether it's a good

39:37

feeling, whether it's a bad feeling, whether it's

39:39

a Monday, whether it's a Friday, it doesn't

39:41

matter. It's like my response to life is

39:43

to drink to enhance or to silence or

39:46

to distort or to warp or to bring

39:48

excitement or to make it quieter. That's what

39:50

I do. So I drank

39:52

again. And I went,

39:54

I sent myself into oblivion. I was in a wedding,

39:56

which is actually by the way, gorgeous wedding. And You

39:58

know, it wasn't that it was not. By any

40:00

means of crazy wedding. It was gorgeous.

40:03

Like. My lord

40:05

little cousin's wedding on that I'm

40:07

says in my own as I've

40:09

gotten Austin's from weekend and. I

40:12

both won't say it anyway. Cooks: I didn't

40:14

sleep, but I went to bed for need

40:17

six, the stabbing the morning and I lay

40:19

there tossing and turning and pleading and. Begging.

40:22

And borrowing with anybody that I could think

40:24

of in my head to to give me

40:26

some sleep and then I was I I

40:28

just started crying and I was like. On.

40:31

Don't. It's it's It's weird, defeats.

40:33

It's a very. If it

40:35

was like a spiritual defeat of i'm

40:38

fucking. And to be totally kind

40:40

of. Not. Went on drinking on don't

40:42

be mark. I'm

40:45

done. With marks sort

40:47

of rip blueprint of living. That's the

40:49

end of the next. like. That

40:52

were on. It's that. It's.

40:55

A the dark to see

40:57

him firing. Everything.

41:00

Your entire Life. Like my entire life,

41:02

I've been needing to this. The

41:04

Fork excuse my language like this. On.

41:07

Ending series of excuses

41:10

and justifications and reason

41:12

since. Blame. And this

41:14

toxic relationship or daughter it was her folder

41:16

was his fall to the job, of the

41:18

success, of the lack of success, of the

41:20

desire for success. Was.

41:22

To give up on come on don't it's

41:25

me on don't I can't do with can't

41:27

do this anymore and. It

41:29

was the first time that I was willing. You know,

41:32

And. I talk about this and the both in terms of

41:34

like. In order to change.

41:37

It's not about doing the same story with

41:39

dual harder or passer or more efficiently, it's

41:41

a doing differently you know and for so

41:43

long I still the same what away with

41:45

same like with food stop that I saw

41:47

with you know in terms of benzene and

41:50

he's not food and dieting and been trying

41:52

to lose weight and then whenever put on

41:54

weight. By. Cheap fallen into this

41:56

trap of note this week. I'm just gonna do all the

41:58

same Superman to do a better. Ignite the

42:00

by. Doing. Differently, you

42:02

know, and. Day

42:04

I do believe was the luckiest

42:07

a my life because that's when

42:09

I stayed. Experience.surrender I'm stone. Yeah,

42:12

I think that you know the cliche.

42:14

it's a call at rock bottom and

42:16

everybody's rock bottom is difference and but

42:18

it's You know I pray that moment

42:20

describes before. have that feeling us? it's

42:22

over my at my biological mom Mark

42:25

with an alcoholic on C surrender custody

42:27

of me and my brother when I

42:29

was seven and she got sober and

42:31

on. May eighteenth birthday. Know

42:34

she went on sale at is she

42:36

would she did She was homeless, she

42:38

was under a bridge and Chicago see

42:40

and was beaten really badly and assaulted

42:43

and lasts paralyzed as she was in

42:45

a wheelchair. she kept drinking and and

42:47

then one day she's she's as without

42:49

a party and there with free beer.

42:52

And. Something. Just header. On

42:55

C after friends take her to the hospital

42:57

and she sides I'm an alcoholic and I'm

42:59

suicidal and I need help and she fought

43:01

so hard for her sobriety she went your

43:03

treatment center and then she said this is

43:05

who he the I know this isn't gonna

43:08

work for me she could feel her south

43:10

manipulating s and so she she fought to

43:12

get into a much harder one and she

43:14

say it's over until she died seven years

43:16

ago like as he managed to turn it

43:18

rains and I I She talks to me

43:20

about that moment and it it the way

43:22

you described to bury three The consistent with

43:24

her experience. It's just that feeling

43:27

of i just can't. Keep.

43:29

Going. And I

43:31

think it's really important to describe.and. do

43:33

you think that there would have been

43:35

a moment, or if there was anything

43:37

that anybody else could have done at.

43:40

Any stage or dinner have to be you

43:42

reckoning with your son's. Actually,

43:46

me and. For

43:48

see my condolences and. Yeah,

43:50

it ought to be me and. I

43:53

see goal. So. It's.

43:56

It's weird things. I. I. talk but

43:58

i don't i don't a bore p with the

44:00

philosophy of it all. But it does make

44:02

me worry about the

44:05

self-centeredness of addiction, but

44:08

also the self-centeredness of recovery in

44:10

the sense that there

44:13

were lots of people who told me at various times

44:15

that I needed help and there

44:17

were hands extended to me left,

44:20

right and center, you know, but

44:23

until you're ready yourself, it's

44:25

futile and it took

44:27

me needing to hit that. And you know,

44:30

the rock bottom, like I had many other

44:32

rock bottoms before then where I taught never

44:34

again, but as in whatever happened that day,

44:36

it took

44:38

me going, I'm fucking done. Yeah. And it

44:40

sort of probably came as a surprise to

44:42

people around me that I was like, well,

44:45

why? Because in their almost eyes, it's like

44:47

there was nothing particularly profound. It's not like

44:49

I crashed the car. Yeah, I got arrested.

44:51

I did something, you know, that was at

44:53

odds or inconsistent with my previous binges. This

44:55

was just a regular old binge, but it's

44:58

that internal

45:01

dereliction where it's

45:03

just like, yeah,

45:05

I'm done. So now,

45:08

unfortunately, there was many opportunities for me

45:10

to reach out and accept help before,

45:12

but it took me midnoon

45:15

that the jig was up and knowing

45:18

I couldn't outsmart this. I couldn't outsmart

45:20

this. I couldn't outrun this. I couldn't

45:22

outdrink this. Yeah.

45:25

I think it's important to say that because there will

45:28

be people listening who have loved ones who are addicted

45:30

at the moment and active addiction. And I

45:33

know that struggle and how much you

45:35

wish you could do something, anything. But

45:40

at the end of the day, it has to be the person themselves.

45:42

That doesn't mean there aren't things that you can do and you should

45:44

get yourself support, 100%.

45:46

But it isn't something that you

45:49

can solve for another person. And that's why I

45:51

mentioned all the things that happened for

45:53

my mom in the interim, because you

45:55

would think homelessness, you would think

45:57

being assaulted to the extent that you're in the

45:59

hospital, that you're paralyzed, you

46:01

know, and you have to learn to walk again,

46:03

and then you can't actually. And, you know, she

46:05

had all of the things that you would take

46:07

that you were saying, well, I'm not this, I'm

46:10

not that I'm not blah, blah, blah, she was

46:12

all of those things. And none of that was

46:14

her moment. And the moment came

46:16

on a day that was completely unexpected. And

46:18

it's such an internal thing.

46:21

And I obviously haven't experienced it myself. And I'm

46:23

not an expert, but I, it was remarkable for

46:25

me to hear you describe it and think about

46:27

how consistent that was with her experience as well.

46:31

Can I ask you, sorry, go on. No,

46:34

no, it's okay. Sorry, continue. I

46:38

have friends who are in recovery. And

46:40

one of the things that they have

46:42

struggled with is

46:45

the unfairness of it.

46:48

And the feeling of why

46:51

can't everybody, everybody else, it's not everybody

46:53

else, but like everybody else can just

46:55

drink normally. Why can't I that

46:57

like feeling of being unlucky

46:59

or it being unfair, which I kind of

47:02

think it is to be honest, because, you

47:04

know, why can I have two glasses of

47:06

wine and someone else can't? It's, you know,

47:08

it doesn't seem like there's any rhyme or

47:10

reason in it. Is that a feeling that

47:12

you've had? And if it is, how do

47:14

you, how do you manage that? Somebody

47:18

tell me pretty much in my first week

47:20

of sobriety, you know, by me, why not

47:22

me? Why

47:24

not me? And that extends to

47:26

every department of life. Why

47:29

not me? So like, your

47:31

mum didn't ask for those, your biological mother

47:33

didn't ask for those situations. None

47:36

of us ask for anything. I consider myself to

47:38

be lucky. I'm like, I'm

47:40

so much to be grateful for. And that sounds generic

47:43

and sweeping, but I do. I pinch

47:45

myself with how lucky I am that

47:47

I managed to get help when I did. Every

47:50

day of the week, I talk to other people who are

47:52

still suffering, you know, who are still

47:54

out there with

47:56

that feeling, with that loneliness, that isolation,

47:58

that kindness, that. horrendous

48:01

existential fucking oblivion

48:03

of just banging your head against the wall

48:05

and not knowing that there

48:07

is a life beyond your wildest dreams, be outside

48:09

of addiction. And it's like, absolutely,

48:14

it's tempting on some occasions to think, oh, why

48:16

can't I just be like other lads? Why can't

48:18

I just be like other ladies? Why can't I

48:20

be like other people and just go out for

48:22

a drink? But I need to,

48:25

I need to slap myself. I need to

48:27

shake my snap my snap myself. I need

48:34

to snap myself out of that taking

48:36

because that is for me is the

48:38

most dangerous but again, alluring part

48:41

process ever. Why is Mark like this?

48:44

But I am so lucky. It's beyond

48:46

comprehension to be sitting here today, having

48:48

a conversation with you to be able

48:50

to walk downstairs and make a cup

48:52

of tea. And like, some

48:55

of the, and I'm sure we'll talk

48:57

about it later, but some of the

48:59

most profound moments of my recovery, and

49:01

this is certainly consistent with the alcoholics

49:03

I know, it's not like, you know,

49:05

necessarily walking out on to do live

49:07

shows or, you know, go into

49:09

big events or doing these things. It's like standing

49:11

in the kitchen with a cup of

49:13

tea in my hand looking at the sun come up. And

49:16

I genuinely have had tears in my eyes going, I was

49:18

this my life, I was everything

49:20

okay. And to not have

49:22

fires in my mind, you

49:25

know, too numerous to mention that require

49:27

constant putting out and the

49:29

self disgust and the agonizing inability

49:32

to be Mark and to want to

49:34

inhabit my own body like that

49:36

is the profound life that

49:39

I have that I have, you know, the

49:41

day that I'm not grateful for that no

49:43

matter what happens, by the way, externally, because

49:45

life is still life, by the way, when

49:47

the shit still happens. And I think, because

49:49

I'm an addict, whenever I first got into

49:51

recovery, I like my life was just a

49:53

series of internet transactions, everything was for something

49:55

no matter what if I'm meeting Louise for

49:57

coffee, she better offer me to go for

49:59

a drink after it's because I want something

50:01

from her. You know, I'll go onto the

50:03

idea that I'm asking you about work, but I want to get

50:05

drunk that night. And then I want to go elsewhere. So when

50:09

I came into recovery, I initially thought as well,

50:11

bang, if I'm getting this, I must be getting

50:13

that. If I'm going into it, if I'm sacrificing

50:15

this, I must be gaining that. And

50:18

staying sober and practicing the program

50:20

of recovery taught me just

50:22

obviously how wrong I was about everything.

50:25

And the real beauty of recovery is

50:27

I've been able to sleep at night. I've

50:30

been able to live between my ears. And it's been

50:32

able to, you know, just

50:34

step out. And if someone's listening

50:36

now and they're struggling and

50:39

they're not able to sleep at night and

50:41

they are not able to kind of sit

50:43

with themselves and they are maybe recognising themselves

50:45

in what we've talked about today, what

50:48

would your recommendation be to them? Talk

50:52

to someone. Talk

50:54

to someone, just ask, ask my help. And

50:59

it doesn't need to be an expert on

51:01

drinking. And it certainly could be, by the

51:03

way. You know, it could be a doctor, it could be

51:05

a therapist, it could be... There's many

51:07

numbers that if you Google, you know,

51:10

there are many numbers that you can call

51:12

free of charge immediately and an alcoholic will talk to

51:14

you. That's what you wish, but also if you're not

51:16

there yet, you

51:18

just want to stop drinking. You know, for

51:20

me, the label of alcoholism, and we

51:23

can talk about changing the

51:25

label and changing the interpretation of alcoholics

51:27

as a label, but like, I don't

51:29

care, to be honest. If somebody

51:31

wants to stop drinking and they can't, there

51:34

is help out there. If somebody

51:36

is drinking and their drinking is

51:39

bringing them to their knees internally,

51:41

emotionally, spiritually, financially, psychologically, whatever, there

51:43

is help out there. If

51:46

like, if you wake up in the

51:48

morning and all you can

51:50

think about is this grey and you're just looking

51:52

forward, you're counting down the day to the next

51:55

drink. Like, there is help out

51:57

there. And I

51:59

don't, you know... To be all, to be brutally honest with you

52:01

Louise, like if I was drinking, when I was drinking the

52:03

way that I was, if I

52:05

listened to this would it help? I

52:08

don't know because it's impossible to see what's

52:10

over the wall if that makes sense. And

52:13

you know, I remember reading a book

52:15

when I was about seven or probably

52:18

twelve. I remember reading about a book when

52:20

I was around twelve, nothing about alcoholism. And

52:23

the protagonist in it described

52:26

what it must feel like to discover

52:28

a new colour. And

52:31

it's such a weird thing to think about. Like imagine

52:33

trying to think of a new colour, like you can't,

52:35

like what is a new colour? But that for me

52:37

is like what sobriety is. It's like, it's not anything

52:39

at all it was. It's not anything I'd hoped it

52:41

would be. It's not anything that

52:44

I've read about. It is a different, like I

52:46

feel like a different person to

52:49

the one that I was before. Now I am the same person

52:51

of course. And I'm also, I

52:53

just need to repeat it, like I'm probably saying the

52:56

same thing I do in every bit of media around

52:58

the book. But like I'm not in recovery to be

53:00

holier than thou. I'm not better. I am

53:03

not like, I don't have the answers. I am

53:05

not more virtuous than anybody who's drinking. I'm not

53:07

more virtuous than other people who don't drink. I

53:09

am literally just doing this to make life easier

53:12

and for it to be okay to be me.

53:14

You know? Well, it sounds

53:16

like you are in a really good place. Thank

53:20

you. Is that true?

53:22

Can you confirm? Okay.

53:27

Let me just, I'm panicking about these questions and

53:29

in my head I'm like, be careful what you're

53:31

saying. No, don't worry. We're coming to an end

53:33

now Mark. So you can take it, take it,

53:35

let's exhale. Thank

53:37

you. I'm sure the listener can

53:40

feel my shoulders just so tense.

53:44

Yeah, look, I'm really, I'm really happy.

53:47

It's strange. I'm a happy person

53:49

then. I

53:51

love my life, you know, I'm

53:54

going to get married. I'm really

53:56

excited about that. I've got my

53:59

relationships with everyone. everybody are

54:01

just improving and not straight away, not

54:03

all of them immediately, you know, lots

54:05

of them require conversations and uncomfortable chats

54:07

about things that have gone on and

54:10

whatnot but the

54:12

lives that I have today, so beautiful

54:14

and sounds

54:16

like a gushing idiot or like

54:18

but it's the

54:20

part of these conversations that I've lost for

54:22

words on because I can't

54:24

tell you how different it is. I

54:27

just have like lovely friends,

54:29

lovely family and it's

54:32

okay, things are fine. That's it. It's ups

54:35

and downs. There's lots of external

54:37

stress from work, you know,

54:39

the aforementioned articles and all that sort of stuff

54:41

that can get you on bad days but like

54:44

most important thing is that like I'm

54:46

in love with my fiancee, I've got some really

54:48

lovely friends, my relationship with my media family is

54:50

just amazing. Like I have people that I will

54:52

now comfortably text and tell them if I'm having

54:54

a bad day and most importantly and I wouldn't

54:56

want to finish the interview without saying this, it's

54:58

that I can be there for them when they're

55:00

having a bad day. Like I

55:02

think the unspoken people

55:05

in addiction and in recovery

55:07

very often are the people

55:09

who are around you, you know, like I do

55:13

an interview and I get Instagram messages from

55:15

people saying that, you know, you're amazing, well

55:17

done or you know, congrats and you've done

55:19

so well and stuff. Like Darren

55:22

and forget the fact that Darren is

55:24

famous, Darren Gary, she's just somebody who

55:26

is in a relationship with a recovering

55:28

alcoholic who has to work

55:31

on his recovery every day. She has to put up

55:33

with it, she has to live with this, you

55:35

know, she has to live with me on my bad days

55:37

and by the way there are lots

55:39

of bad days. Like recovery isn't just

55:42

one linear, you know, march into the

55:44

sunset. It's not like, you

55:46

know, I have the capacity to be as crazy

55:49

as I was when I was drinking without

55:51

the drink and there are so like all

55:53

the people around me like my good friends,

55:55

my family, Darren, you know, Darren's

55:58

family, all of these people who just wrap

56:00

me up with so much love, like they

56:02

deserve the accolades because they're the people that

56:04

make it easy for me

56:06

to stay sober, you know what

56:08

I mean? And that's where I, because I just,

56:11

my deepest fear would be that like I

56:13

come across as evangelical or like that, I

56:15

deserve some sort of canonization for getting sober.

56:17

I'm sober because these people love me enough,

56:19

and they love me enough when I can't

56:21

love myself. Well,

56:25

I don't think you need to be worried about thought. I

56:27

really don't. That's not how you

56:29

come across. That's not how the book reads.

56:31

That's not the vibe that I'm getting in

56:33

any way. And from anything that you've said

56:35

today, or from anything I read in the

56:37

book, I really would recommend the

56:39

book. It is not a hard read, but it's

56:41

like, I mean that in, when

56:44

I say that, I'm like, I don't want that to sound

56:46

insulting. Like it's a compliment, as far as I'm concerned. Like

56:48

you will find yourself, you'll pick it up and you'll suddenly

56:50

you'll be 100 pages through it and you'll be like, how

56:52

does that happen? It is very

56:55

honest. It is full of hope. And I am

56:57

full of admiration, Mark. I think it's a really

56:59

brilliant thing that you've done. And I wish you

57:01

all the best with the rest of your interviews.

57:04

I know it's hard. I've done it. Like, I

57:06

know it's hard. But I

57:08

think that the net positivity out of this

57:10

is going to far outweigh any negativity. And

57:12

I hope that you find that to be

57:14

the experience as well. I

57:17

really appreciate that, Louise. And I'd just like to say you made me

57:19

feel so comfortable and it's, it

57:21

is tough. And even like, when I

57:23

listen back, like the difference in my

57:25

disposition, when you ask the first question,

57:27

I'm like so defensive. I'm like, Oh

57:29

no, this again. No,

57:33

I felt thought for asking that question first. But

57:35

I guess what I wanted to say was that

57:37

I was coming from a neutral position. And I

57:40

wanted you to believe me when I said that

57:42

I thought the book was brilliant. But look, this

57:44

is for human beings, Mark. That's the thing. And

57:46

this podcast is about conversations. It's not about, I

57:49

don't even really consider them interviews. I mean,

57:52

they are interviews, but they're chats. And all

57:54

of my crew who listen, who are amazing

57:56

know that. And I know That

58:00

they're gonna love you for it has. And.

58:11

When I hope you enjoy that conversation I certainly

58:13

days and they thought of Marks Am and it

58:15

was lovely to meet him on shot through all

58:17

of that sauce his look at available. now you

58:19

can get it. Usual both places

58:22

there's a link to can ease who an

58:24

offer free. Shipping worldwide in v

58:26

show Notes: Of this podcast if you

58:28

want to go and get it's an but

58:30

yeah I really really enjoyed talking to him

58:32

in terms of recommendations or see guys I

58:35

don't have loads on but what I do

58:37

has is one that is about seven hundred

58:39

years lace and you know look that's just

58:41

the way of life sometimes people have been

58:43

whispering about last one last thing on amazon

58:46

prime I'd heard people say it's a funny

58:48

on that they really enjoy it is and

58:50

I have kind of like I'd and now

58:52

I like I like how many second me

58:55

wrong but something that looks structured comedy programmes.

58:57

On put me off but and we

58:59

started at last week and I really

59:01

have massively massively enjoyed as it is

59:04

so funny. The premise is die eat

59:06

at a group of Irish comedians in

59:08

a room and they have to spend

59:11

six hours in that room On the

59:13

idea is that they have to not

59:15

loss at each other so the last

59:17

person. Who who keeps

59:20

a straight face gets a massive donation

59:22

for a charity of their choice? Bright

59:24

idea Am on a Graham Norton is

59:26

sitting in another room kind of monitoring

59:28

them. They can't even smile by the

59:30

way frame sitting in another a monitoring

59:32

them as they goes. Great pains, try

59:34

and each other laugh while not laughing

59:36

themselves and it is very silly aren't

59:38

really fallen on it is well worth

59:40

it and I think I have so

59:42

enjoyed it. It's great for like you

59:44

know. We started watching it when we'd

59:46

been out for the day and we'd

59:48

had. Seen a couple glasses of wine and we didn't

59:50

wanna sit down and watch anything serious or I knew I

59:53

was a fall asleep of i tried to watch a film

59:55

or something. You know in those moments when you awesome that's

59:57

kind of foreigner funny or even something kind of music. A

59:59

This isn't. music obviously but for those moments

1:00:01

it's an ideal program. I really

1:00:03

loved it. I had to message Tony

1:00:07

Canwell last night to say how brilliant he is

1:00:09

on it. He in particular I think is just

1:00:12

excellent but they're all good. They are all good.

1:00:14

There might even be one or two comedians in

1:00:16

there who you think I

1:00:18

don't like them and still in

1:00:20

the context of the program they're entertaining.

1:00:23

So yeah last one laughing it is

1:00:25

there on Amazon Prime if you want to get

1:00:27

it. So that's all

1:00:29

my friends. I will talk to you on

1:00:31

Monday. I know I have gotten many SOS messages

1:00:33

from you guys.

1:00:35

Please Louise I can't wait till Monday. I

1:00:38

need someone to explain what is going on

1:00:40

because obviously we have a rad card

1:00:42

resigned yesterday. Well I

1:00:44

think that it's actually better that we're going to

1:00:47

wait to talk about it until Monday because things

1:00:49

need to settle. We don't know what's happening yet.

1:00:51

As I record it's half nine on Thursday morning

1:00:53

so even tomorrow we'll have a

1:00:55

better idea and by Monday sure we'll know what the story

1:00:57

is I think and myself and Carl have a good chat

1:00:59

about it. So I will talk to you then. Have

1:01:02

a great weekend. They

1:01:04

can't all be great so don't worry about it if it's

1:01:06

not. Just put one foot in front of the other and

1:01:08

we'll get together again on Monday. Thank you to ACAST and

1:01:10

all my contributors. I will talk to you then.

1:01:52

All month long. Catch the

1:01:54

award winning movie Poor Things starring Emma

1:01:56

Stone, Mark Ruffalo and Willem Dafoe. Check

1:02:00

out the new documentary, Freaknik, The Wildest

1:02:02

Party Never Told, about the iconic

1:02:04

Atlanta straight party. And

1:02:06

don't miss FX's Shogun, a reimagining of

1:02:09

the epic tale, starring Anna Sawai. So

1:02:12

what are you waiting for? Go

1:02:15

stream something new on Hulu. Tired

1:02:17

of ads barging into your favorite news

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