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threatening and.

1:01

that put me I know back in

1:03

high my house in hey me and,

1:06

asked me to my work. you

1:08

are listening to change lab conversations

1:10

on transformation and creativity

1:13

time lord buckman president of arts center

1:15

code

1:32

Yeah.

1:35

Fine art student on the cusp of

1:37

graduating. In

1:40

our wrong and revealing interview, she

1:42

traced the arduous pass she's locked

1:44

to find the stability she needed to

1:46

risk everything for her are. The

1:49

remarkable journey captured an episode

1:51

fourteen of this podcast began:

1:53

"His native Guatemala were surging

1:56

violence and poverty had forced

1:58

check his mother to migrate to the and. The date.

2:00

At age seventeen, Jackie

2:03

followed her mother's footsteps to the U. S.

2:05

quite literally and barely survived

2:08

a dangerous border crossing.

2:12

Eventually her journey landed her at Art Center

2:14

for the thesis project in huddled footsteps

2:17

that sprout fucker on another grueling

2:19

track from the T.O. of on the border all

2:21

the way to downtown Los Angeles.

2:25

The power of her resilience

2:27

and grid stuck with me these past years

2:29

as an example of a purpose driven artist

2:32

his message brilliantly aligns with her

2:34

chosen media's I. told

2:36

her story close story my heart and the hardships

2:39

she's transmuted into heart resonated

2:41

all the more the season as we explore

2:43

the alchemy of creativity and adversity

2:47

The for those reasons that I've asked Jackie

2:50

to join us has changed lad's first returning

2:52

guest even as she put the finishing

2:54

touches on her embassy fisa said

2:56

he cla not,

2:58

only did want to know more about her investigation

3:01

into Greece and displacement. has

3:03

also fascinated by the green curry and

3:05

creative energy it took to revisit

3:08

her trauma and to give depths and

3:10

dimension to and painful story

3:12

that needed story be told I

3:15

had a feeling that we might have even more to learn

3:17

from Jackie and. i wasn't wrong

3:22

The enjoy my conversation with

3:24

Jackie A missed.

3:37

Welcome back to change lab. Jackie.

3:40

You're our first night, and only

3:42

returning Champion actually, so that's

3:44

a distinction there. And

3:46

when we spoke in June of twenty

3:48

eighteen exquisitely, this

3:51

very powerful story about how you

3:53

came to the US from Guatemala, to

3:55

be with your mom and journey. You

3:57

took two to get here at the risks,

3:59

in the fear and the Triumphs as well

4:01

on the beautiful, our cats ensued as

4:03

you've explored all the questions that

4:05

result from the experience

4:07

that you had and all that you went

4:09

through and I wanna really

4:11

return to that. I want

4:14

to see what happens in the

4:16

ensuing years I'm interested in the central

4:18

figures of the story of. Certainly

4:20

us that kind of central heroin which I want

4:22

to follow it mostly but your. brother

4:25

in your grandmother and your father your mother all of

4:27

them played a significant roles and destroy

4:29

you told and so i was thinking

4:31

that today To. Explore what

4:33

is happening last four years, there would

4:35

be some three major areas of conversation

4:37

that we could pursue, one that

4:40

has to do with your work and what

4:42

happened to. overcome his last several years

4:44

the, second to catch up on your family

4:47

whom get woven into your store

4:49

in into your life and such important ways

4:51

and then finally your. Own personal growth in

4:53

this period of time something that was so compelling.

4:56

when we first book but first know has taken

4:58

or kinds of interesting and developments.

5:01

And really,

5:03

hopefully to get at this question that we're trying to address

5:06

this season about the relationship between our

5:08

creative practice and some kind of feeling, or

5:10

finding balance and

5:12

writing things that may be a

5:14

little off. in

5:16

our lives. So, let's

5:18

start with your work cuz that'll be the fulcrum and

5:21

there are specifics. I want to ask

5:23

about certain projects that you did. But be

5:26

interesting just start generally and ask you how

5:28

you characterize these years and you're working

5:30

your journey as an artist since you

5:32

graduated from Art Center, which is when we spoke like

5:37

a lady a metaphor for

5:39

years have been for me is

5:41

just like Earth moving like

5:44

this. tonic pleads

5:46

trying to a, line

5:49

and with a more men are creating

5:51

this the friend form, of off

5:54

the ground. and opening

5:56

up new possibilities

5:59

for In purely an

6:01

exterior leave of our.

6:06

In a place to start would be

6:08

a second kind of border based

6:11

piece that you did performance as you did I.

6:13

think and twenty nineteen him he has echoes

6:15

of the first when the you did hear that we

6:17

talked for quite a lot in the last episode but

6:20

this time as time understand a traveling

6:22

from the us mexico border to

6:25

The Mexico Guatemala border.

6:28

Would like to invite you to tell the listeners

6:30

about that hand what happened in

6:32

may be how it varied and new

6:34

things you discovered in comparison to the first

6:37

tourney. Yeah,

6:39

I was.

6:40

They can performance it's cool

6:42

they're not guess who's from north

6:45

to, south. an eye trouble

6:47

from the border off if when i

6:49

mexico The way down to

6:51

the border off a by July into

6:53

cool man, what am I? He.

6:56

The journey was not

6:58

walking all the way it was

7:01

walking in the city but taking my

7:03

public transportation to arrive

7:05

to my final destination. The journey.

7:09

Hey. Collaborative

7:11

with people in my surroundings

7:14

I, was asking people how to get

7:16

from one place to another place.

7:19

i had like a map of the friend

7:21

locations to follow by alice

7:24

interacting with people interacting mexico

7:27

and asking what will be the best

7:29

route to take to get to my next step

7:32

or if they have any like

7:34

recommendations of places

7:36

or it seems to look

7:39

around that has to be

7:41

like native of mexico always

7:43

We interesting in. Three

7:46

food in Mexican to

7:48

seen during the struggle but,

7:51

I was also interested fan

7:53

of closing the cycle US.

7:56

coming from Guatemala

7:59

to the you. The end. Then

8:01

going back and. not

8:04

following my seen stance

8:06

bad allowing other people

8:09

to help me navigate. You

8:12

need again and three

8:14

unite with my mother

8:16

and my brother on that but

8:18

you let yep ice and.

8:21

"The got my brother has asylum in the country,

8:24

he cannot go back to what am I so

8:26

that was kind of like the closest place

8:29

that" The could be from.

8:32

What a mile and soil a no soul

8:35

in this performance and bringing on

8:37

my family so my family's coming

8:39

together to support my artistic

8:41

practice, and we're kind of like

8:44

learning, also allow each other

8:46

and is like moments that

8:48

we are allowed to.

8:51

Shouldn't be together there's a different

8:53

relationship from. You

8:56

know, I'm not a mom in a moment

8:59

in that moment my mom is the mom and I

9:01

just want to be the door. After in, I just want to be a

9:03

sister.

9:04

That child raising my brother

9:06

anymore in having that

9:08

kind of relationship.

9:10

That sounds like it was at once a resetting

9:12

us. What was in

9:14

terms of the past and the relationships

9:16

that existed? And simultaneously

9:19

trying to set forward. How

9:22

does relationships can operate

9:24

what the dynamic is and? Are

9:27

you might move forward, is that an accurate? Ray,

9:30

think about it.

9:31

Ray, anything particularly because

9:34

I'm in the situation is his

9:36

emotional challenge because

9:38

we are. The will like.

9:41

You know, negotiations of

9:43

relationships and

9:45

until to the at I feel that

9:47

we're trying to get to know each

9:49

other after not being with my brother for.

9:51

We're like sixteen years. You

9:53

know, I been in the country now for A. neary

9:56

in, I look back. Those

9:58

eighteen years and one. Then my lai in, I look

10:01

back at this. The nearest in the U.

10:03

S. and, end

10:05

Older psychos that? Like

10:08

repeated a the have been in my

10:10

family. Like this place, man

10:13

in, they asked for I in

10:15

how we're trying to reach

10:18

into. Read this relationship.

10:20

The conversation we had about your first journey

10:23

walking was a key piece and locking

10:25

them. I. Held a certain

10:27

significance kind of resiliency

10:30

kind of personal power way to

10:32

understand what the body carried in

10:34

the experience at the body carried and you spoke

10:36

so beautifully about that. I

10:38

know you said you took the public transportation

10:40

this time in certain places, in addition to walking,

10:42

but where you exploring similarly that

10:45

same notion of movement, and I

10:47

remember very. Clearly moving soil

10:49

from place to place, even in its. The

10:51

tiniest varieties.

10:55

The same I think, ah, way

10:57

I can hear me now, was sort of like

10:59

this foundation for me to start

11:02

interacting with my body in

11:04

the landscape in. Thinking

11:06

about soil as?

11:09

The material bit more like an ingredient

11:12

that has, like, Easter. The in

11:15

memory and. I

11:17

think state lines in country

11:20

lanes, dad mark a

11:22

separation between.

11:25

Nature humans and

11:27

like animals and,

11:30

I continue working that

11:32

direction gathering soil around

11:36

my navigation. navigation

11:38

not just thinking about me thinking think

11:40

all the people that have passed fear

11:42

that have The most part.

11:45

of their dna their essence

11:47

as humans And I now.

11:52

You know whole history

11:54

of archival off

11:56

what humans are in.

11:59

connection with The animals in connection

12:01

with plans and I still

12:03

have the soil that I acquired

12:06

during my journey from the

12:08

north, guess all. In. Between a

12:10

magical am, one of my friends,

12:12

his house and I've been thinking

12:14

about what I'm gonna do with a soil that

12:16

he's been contained in this bottles and

12:18

I can. Just do for fresh the little bit

12:20

about my intention with, you

12:22

know, acquiring the soil in bottles

12:25

it, was because I was thinking about

12:28

what happened with a bottle of. Water,

12:30

that i left behind when i had to run

12:34

From immigration TV, me.

12:38

Here's how Jackie described that incident

12:40

in our first interview.

12:48

My money with higher. i

12:50

can

12:51

The get any more out with an H

12:53

I feel like I needed to take a break, but

12:55

I had more toys and to continue, so

12:58

it was it was a big group of people I can

13:00

remember how many we were, but I will gaslight

13:03

between like. The be keen twenty

13:05

five.

13:10

The waves,

13:13

on her nephews

13:15

Like two years old and she had a

13:17

like a brand new baby army

13:20

was two weeks ago and now

13:22

we were hiding in the desert and

13:24

all the said in we. Heard like Ron,

13:26

you know they're coming for which is like study

13:29

it like running in, I had

13:31

like one of those like one liter

13:33

bottle of waters with me that.

13:35

When my whole source of nice for

13:38

at this two weeks that we're gonna walk

13:40

in the desert in had to like leave

13:42

it behind. so i could like

13:44

run faster

13:46

A nugget kind bed when

13:48

everybody run this. mom

13:50

with a baby run away but

13:52

she last the little boy behind

13:56

I'm in. I couldn't think

13:58

I just react pretty much in the. Mean? A

14:00

nice stops and I knew I

14:02

was gonna get kind but I couldn't leave that

14:04

little boy there because, I

14:07

was feeling that immigration

14:09

was just not been a curable. Him into

14:11

leave him there and he was in a be eaten by

14:13

equity you are an enema I

14:15

couldn't so I turn around. i

14:18

went to grow them Then

14:20

we say that because of. Then.

14:26

The A. The

14:28

thinking about the body as the best saw the

14:31

whole life in. oldies all

14:33

their bodies that bodies don't know if they It

14:35

may get are not in. this

14:37

jury nice

14:41

Then with that intention in mine,

14:43

I continue acquiring the soil.

15:03

Now you're at you, Cla, and I'm really

15:05

interested in your choice of that

15:08

program, and if we could then fast

15:10

forward to your thesis, which I'm very

15:12

interested into, and I think listeners

15:14

would be fascinated to learn what you're doing.

15:17

Yeah, I think that. Oh,

15:19

read, was something

15:21

that.

15:24

Help me like navigate some

15:26

of my wounds because

15:28

for me a. You know,

15:31

experience. I meant

15:33

again in a lot of us were confined

15:36

in the space away from or loved

15:38

ones not been able to see each other

15:41

not knowing what we

15:43

were expecting from coal they'd we

15:45

just know it was something life

15:47

threatening and.

15:51

That got me I know back inside

15:54

my house inside me in.

15:56

that to meet you my work in thinking

15:59

about Oh, there.

16:01

Bottles of soil that I have acquired

16:04

through wow my troubles in the U.

16:06

S. A from visiting my family

16:08

from Los Angeles sooner crop

16:10

coraline, as I mentioned, some of my

16:12

family members are still undocumented so

16:14

they cannot fly. Then

16:16

we have to do this trouble on

16:18

Man in, thinking

16:21

about how I was not

16:23

able to be in the States.

16:25

and how my body had the privilege

16:28

to Of mobility,

16:30

that is something that I think I

16:32

wanted to talk about in way, as mean

16:35

in thinking about that either,

16:37

all the soil from the states and

16:39

then I had it with. A. The

16:42

during Kuwait, I was not able to go

16:44

to the border.

16:45

Then do some of my activism

16:47

or I bring a two families

16:50

who are seeking asylum in. The

16:53

provisional shelters. Though.

16:56

Hey, I know when

16:58

back and.

17:01

They like looking into like

17:03

my computer files and what

17:05

why have that is?

17:08

Interesting to meet you. Make

17:10

work. In a place of

17:12

confinement and.

17:15

That to me to find

17:18

some information from like family

17:21

members that have been. The team in detention

17:23

centers and,

17:26

Photo myself. Then

17:28

I am. Rather,

17:30

it is least stuff. That's a

17:32

nice detention center's seems to thousand and

17:34

three when I was looking for a family member.

17:38

In two thousand and fourteen and,

17:40

i realize that the list from

17:42

the website Is that God

17:45

was not? Part of

17:47

their system.

17:48

The more and. so

17:50

i just going The new I'm looking to

17:52

see we're at this place when.

17:55

These are list have people who are in

17:57

the detention centers, this is a lists.

18:00

People who die. In I have

18:02

city.

18:04

And so when you're looking

18:06

for a family member who is

18:08

been detained for ice, you go on their website

18:11

and you put or?

18:14

In date of birth and he kills

18:16

you if this person is register in any of

18:18

these detention centers. If you

18:20

cannot find this person, register

18:23

in any of this. The pension

18:25

centers, you know, there's another list.

18:27

Where you can look for your family member in

18:30

case is D.C. c In.

18:33

You could find them there so I kind

18:35

of focus on this list because

18:37

this list was not a public

18:39

record anymore it was not on their website

18:42

and. so from two thousand

18:44

and seventeen two thousand Cool.

18:48

It was not been upgraded in.

18:50

April Two thousand a

18:52

team when I graduated from our

18:55

center. They started

18:57

like posting again the names

18:59

of people who are passing in detention

19:01

centres, so there's a gap between

19:03

June two thousand and seventeen, two April two

19:05

thousand and eighteen, where there's no

19:07

least of that so. The

19:10

eraser that happen between?

19:15

And man's was something

19:17

that it was interested in thinking about.

19:20

How I had all the soil

19:23

like encapsulated in this bottles

19:25

in, I feel that I wonder. The

19:27

like really sad. Then

19:30

from there I started casting

19:33

money. The people who passed in

19:36

detention centers, you seen the

19:38

soil from that? The big stay where they

19:40

pass in you. In the same

19:42

recipe, our say soil from

19:44

the state. Found in

19:47

rainwater to kind of we embody

19:49

their bodies again.

19:50

The and is that same time period still

19:53

unavailable or did they fill it and?

19:56

No is still unavailable I.

19:58

study like print Oh,

20:01

articles oh mine ways,

20:03

the names of children

20:05

who passed in the dungeon Centers.

20:09

And then when I study like.

20:11

Looking at the dates and

20:13

that they have been is kind of

20:15

in between this period of time,

20:17

so the less than like document

20:20

the now I'm making this panel

20:22

settles dry wall where I car ban.

20:26

In I embed, they passed

20:28

it means that of soil, so

20:31

my thesis is pretty much. The

20:34

collection of this. Read

20:37

documents the first list

20:39

from the thousand, three, two, two thousand and seventeen,

20:42

the gap that is between. In

20:45

the last least that they're providing us

20:47

from April two thousand and eighteen until now

20:50

and I'm. just thinking

20:52

about how he We

20:54

can we embody

20:56

this names and how to this

20:58

is not. I

21:01

understand that this is not existing

21:03

as. a public record any more

21:06

and bed I'm trying

21:08

to. Bring these documents

21:11

and, who For

21:15

example, the name of the children I'm not

21:17

asking them with soil. Because I

21:19

feel bad.

21:20

They

21:22

were not included in the system.

21:25

And. I decided

21:28

to shred. All

21:30

these articles in newspapers

21:32

weather information to caster

21:35

names in thinking

21:37

allow like life in renewal

21:40

and like closing cycles in

21:42

thinking about the. children

21:45

that are still the team In this places

21:48

and. Understanding that.

21:50

It

21:53

was a tragedy, what happened to this?

21:55

This kid, but they're still more. In

21:59

I added some. Yeah, he's. Their

22:01

names and. We'll

22:04

see if for my decent they will.

22:06

Then be ready to sprout and

22:09

take a little bit of a life forms

22:11

into the space.

22:37

Can formulate this question, but it has to

22:39

do with your insight into memory.

22:41

The memory works.

22:45

The town's, when you speak as if memories

22:47

almost a sixth sense of sorts

22:50

that hearkens back in echoes,

22:52

probably for generations not necessarily

22:55

specific, but there's a kind of reverberation

22:58

of the past in the kind of memory that you

23:00

explore. The body

23:02

holds memory. I'm

23:04

curious to hear you. What

23:06

a little bit more on memory,

23:09

the importance of memorializing

23:11

of giving form to it all the

23:13

work that you're doing around that brings

23:15

us to seal, engage,

23:18

understand something in it. The

23:20

new way.

23:22

I think a lot about like generational

23:25

trauma. How?

23:30

There's all these repetitive

23:33

she's trees. Displacement?

23:37

In my family like I

23:40

think allow my grandmother

23:42

and her indigenous community

23:44

in Mexico that I don't know a lot about

23:47

but. her family had to My

23:49

dream. The South in

23:52

what am I love? I

23:54

think about how my dad's father

23:57

had to walk. From

23:59

his down. The end up any got banned.

24:03

What the my life? The cd ask

24:05

it's I didn't go where I am from. The

24:08

seven year old child because

24:10

he was an orphan in. order

24:12

to

24:13

thereby and, then

24:16

i think about how they might

24:18

be passed down you know to my mother

24:20

to my father In in my

24:23

mother, a young age, you know,

24:25

like twenty years old. She

24:27

migrates from what a mala to the

24:29

U. S.

24:30

You know, in search of work, so she can

24:32

provide for her fan. Oil and.

24:35

then there's me The

24:37

me at, you know, seventeen,

24:40

trying to reunite with my mother.

24:53

There is Jackie again back and twenty eighteen

24:55

speaking movingly about her mindset

24:58

as. she embarked on that dangerous journey

25:00

I was just

25:03

very sad that I never

25:05

really had my mom with me and then I could

25:07

have the opportunity to be with her in

25:09

late growing up in been in high.

25:12

When seen or my friends on

25:14

having their moms and they're so there's

25:16

when they were sad or things could, you know, could

25:18

happen.

25:19

Amy like the courage to

25:22

come here with some people

25:25

not friends of the family but people that my

25:27

family knew that clear like bring

25:30

me here it in make say that I was

25:32

gonna make it that I was not gonna be

25:34

burning. on trashcan

25:37

in mexico or a dozen be destroy

25:40

an acid on acid person

25:42

that and you can i help me Right?

25:57

Though, even if we don't know

25:59

the stuff. Then. Or

26:01

body hold his memory.

26:03

That's how, I look like my mom

26:06

and my dad and my mom can look like her died.

26:09

in her mother In.

26:11

We're passing down these genetics

26:14

to. Our next

26:16

generation. I

26:19

like my dad in two thousand and eighteen,

26:21

I think that. The were'at

26:23

at really be lost to me

26:26

that we then.

26:27

You know, the last in the pain

26:30

in the law of. I

26:32

had to do.

26:34

In deeper in.

26:36

find that you mean for myself

26:38

but It was not jump the last

26:41

on my dad ages, these are the.

26:45

Then that I lost from

26:47

my childhood. In my

26:49

life.

26:51

And was your dad as I recall there were levels

26:53

a lot, I mean you didn't see him for a long period

26:55

of time over a decade as I recall correct

26:57

re so you are you at sort

26:59

of quote unquote who lost him at that

27:01

time, but. Reconnected with him, found

27:03

him again. Exactly and

27:06

then experience that next cycle of last that you're

27:08

describing know.

27:09

They, in my intention, the

27:11

I had this performance

27:13

and mine, my intention was to

27:16

have my father.

27:18

Travel from what a mala. You.

27:22

The winner, like doing the street, the

27:24

two of us together so

27:26

he could reunite with my

27:28

brother and made his grandkids,

27:30

but he didn't happen. So

27:35

I have to, you know?

27:38

Of. Go back and me and think

27:40

about like, okay, so this is not

27:42

happening with my dad in

27:44

how I had to like, crafted

27:47

in a way different where I can still. In

27:49

bold, my family and half that

27:51

human aspect in there

27:53

in I had my brother

27:56

be part of this, he met me at they,

27:58

the border of a bachelor.

28:00

They are when my mother in,

28:02

then I have my cause my cousin who

28:04

nash. who trouble

28:06

with me

28:06

The from Mexico City

28:09

all the way down to. A

28:11

by to land in finding this,

28:13

you know, connections are for

28:16

Sam least. Three and how

28:18

we? In a way we're kind of like mean body

28:21

and dad, the in a different. The way in

28:23

a way that we understand the

28:25

we're sad and. We have

28:27

affection for each other in

28:30

a way. Now we have compassion

28:32

for ourselves, we. Look

28:34

at. The landscape

28:37

and from a place of love so.

28:39

we can give that to ourselves that we can he

28:42

didn't give that you have it

29:09

Answered: It gets directly to this question

29:11

that we're trying to think about on the podcast

29:14

the season about.

29:16

the creative impulse and the

29:18

healing impose and that remembering

29:21

reconfiguration with reconfiguration cast

29:24

on at that provides that more

29:26

open healthier maybe

29:28

even more honest certainly a more aware

29:31

connection with what you're creating that

29:33

sort of behind whereas trying to get up before

29:35

as you create

29:37

New things, new form in

29:39

the body or with the soil

29:42

and the rain water etc, that

29:44

it's all reconstituting

29:46

something. Then that

29:48

we remember, but we can look again.

29:51

Or under stand it. Face it.

29:54

The A was it in as again

29:56

honest away as possible. They

29:58

in those like extent.

30:00

No factors do that you know play

30:02

with like. this healing

30:04

aspect The also,

30:06

like green body, I broke

30:09

my finger in February, and I wanted

30:11

to do, you know, did see eg

30:13

elaborating. Project by

30:15

myself, you know, is, I started

30:18

working pretty much in this project during

30:20

Cool the It in Two Thousand.

30:23

Winnie, my brother best it

30:25

with his family from North Carolina so they

30:27

travel. All the way from our berliner

30:29

to Los Angeles in a car

30:31

in he was able to get me

30:33

some of the soil on his weight so he

30:35

becomes you know again there's like performative

30:38

collaborative a project between

30:41

my family and. then right

30:43

now because i broke my finger in my

30:45

mom comes into the picture

30:47

and together we're like molding

30:50

the names casting man

30:53

drilling on these walls like making

30:55

space for them to

30:57

take place talking

30:59

about them Talking

31:02

about a her. Going

31:05

to Watermark there's, you know, this there's

31:07

is also this angry little

31:09

nine year old Jackie that sometimes comes

31:11

up in is like. Bring

31:13

me here before and you

31:16

know in through that we're

31:18

like. Connecting we're learning from

31:20

each other in the dynamic of the changes.

31:23

Because I'm telling my mom what to

31:25

do.

31:26

Hey mom has any it is,

31:29

it says he moved on that when you were seventeen

31:31

to any personal her or maybe six

31:33

months later I think he said yeah. rather

31:35

than Well.

31:38

You know, it's interesting, I really wanted

31:40

to explore the work you've been

31:43

doing and you've been so eloquent about

31:45

that and then to think about your family, but it's

31:47

also interwoven. That it's almost

31:49

impossible to separate the to tell

31:51

us how your mother is, though I mean again,

31:53

she was such a central figure, so she's actually

31:56

with you now working with. You know, I

31:58

assume you're singers healed. She's

32:00

still around and you're collaborating and away.

32:03

We are, we are, she was pretty

32:05

much my right hand, it's typical

32:07

still for us to.

32:09

I think maybe a little bit more

32:11

from my mom to assess certain things

32:13

about me, and same

32:16

thing goes for me there's certain things that

32:18

you know I don't.

32:20

Said you. know

32:22

The window week there are two different things and,

32:24

like you say, like this is, this is in their woman

32:27

in I think, because part of late sealing

32:29

my. You know this?

32:32

Oh, Jackie, you know, in I

32:34

think about all these kids.

32:37

That are in detention centers

32:40

away from their parents in how

32:42

important. They

32:45

do. As a child

32:47

to have. That it a

32:49

dope.

32:51

And how old these

32:53

children?

32:54

The detention centers in how

32:57

the older children that are and his attentions

32:59

areas have to be there.

33:01

For the little ones an as

33:03

you were for your brother exactly.

33:06

Exactly. In,

33:08

of course, is like a friend.

33:11

Conditions because I was under my grandma's

33:14

care bed.

33:15

I went back for my brother when my

33:17

grandma had to go to work in a was just little,

33:19

I was just a kid and I think a lot

33:21

of all that I think a lot about what

33:23

he's gonna be life.

33:25

For all these children

33:27

in ten years had a we

33:29

as part of. A

33:32

community here in the U. S.

33:34

Are also responsible for that.

33:38

Then what are the choices that we make?

33:41

In order to. Three.

33:46

Change within us to. agreed that made

33:48

her change. Around us.

33:55

The Associated Press detailed conditions

33:57

inside a customs and border patrol.

34:00

Then. Attention Center in Flint, Texas,

34:02

or allegedly two hundred and fifty infants,

34:04

children and teenagers are being held,

34:07

according to the A.P., p there's not adequate

34:09

food, water or sanitation

34:11

inside the. Report describes

34:14

teen mothers and other younger kids

34:16

being asked to care for infants and

34:18

toddlers on their own with little

34:20

or no help from any adults.

34:33

And. So to get to you and your own personal

34:35

growth maybe that's a great transition and so how

34:37

does for you test the question

34:39

quite directly creative practice

34:41

bring you closer to? That possibility

34:44

and to that really moral responsibility,

34:46

the hugest articulate it.

34:50

I think that is getting it out of my body.

34:54

I am.

34:54

The embodying this you know

34:56

in the form with him material in

34:58

the building and the making in.

35:01

the perspective of like

35:03

He didn't you know imploding it out

35:06

in a physical form that is not

35:08

within me so. i

35:10

can reflect on that because

35:12

there's because lot of i'm sure a lot of the conscious

35:15

things that things put into the work

35:17

When I was gonna ask that right, a mean?

35:19

The isolated child friends

35:22

sushi huge theme and when getting into

35:24

your body than the speed that experience must

35:26

be part of the to. In.

35:28

A county healing or, if not, I

35:31

don't always know that that's right word I've been stumbling

35:33

upon it for few months now, but and

35:35

if it's not healing, then it's a. It's some kind

35:38

of gross, it's some kind of further discovery,

35:40

it's some kind of balancing

35:42

I don't know what the best word is. I

35:45

don't mean to suggest closure was healing

35:47

and mean to suggest it's. Process

35:50

of. discovery Yeah

35:53

I it. in a They did what I mean,

35:55

you know by.

35:56

Hey, the metaphor of the tectonic

35:58

plate.

36:00

Real, I mean, like moving

36:03

and creating this the friend for

36:05

on the that is gonna come up in the surface,

36:08

but that rocking like that

36:10

movie in battle, cause the wall

36:13

and sometimes the Barry

36:15

trouble.

36:17

The necessary to create

36:19

you know that. change within

36:21

me an it's an process

36:24

and I've been feeling is

36:26

a life process that I'm trying to

36:28

see it from a place of affection

36:31

and when a listening listen to my body.

36:33

The from mom and understand

36:35

mean. The anger

36:38

play a part for you to. Oh, yeah.

36:42

I think for a very long time

36:45

I was in able to feel angry

36:48

in. awful as awful child i was

36:50

just giving task like this is where you

36:52

need to do know this is that okay and

36:55

i think i'm giving myself a

36:57

good precedent have been

36:59

in therapy In working

37:02

in God be with this

37:04

holders, I will say go

37:06

there, you know, there's a whole does in a way

37:08

that we cannot be or for

37:10

selves in a to start a like some somatic

37:13

therapy this past week and

37:15

in it's the process and his allies discovery.

37:18

Yeah, well, given all that you carry

37:20

and how much. You are aware

37:23

of what your body carries in terms

37:25

of memory and identity and

37:27

past and movement and

37:29

future it. sounds like it's

37:31

a direction that could be one of great

37:33

positive growth for us and Yeah,

37:36

I am i

37:38

That on the dismal mean in my life right

37:40

now and you know it's been eighteen years

37:43

I. went through sl

37:45

curry college Or

37:47

center and.

37:50

I'm getting my masters of,

37:53

my you know one of. my

37:55

dream schools and

37:57

i have so much gratitude i have

38:00

Read it, I mean. The your friends and.

38:03

Going back to what am I lie in been

38:05

in one of mine been here in

38:08

going back there in been here

38:10

in been able to navigate and create.

38:14

a new relationships with

38:16

strangers and having

38:18

that privilege of mobility half

38:21

slides Miri,

38:23

play a big part in my

38:25

healing. The journey.

38:37

What? Are you are a just at the so

38:39

love listening to you I

38:41

learned so much from you I

38:43

think the relationship that,

38:45

we're trying to explore between our creative lives?

38:48

And, some kind of healing

38:50

manifested healing in your work in

38:53

really profound ways and I learn,

38:55

about memory I, learn about

38:58

the body what it knows what it.

39:00

Holds and how it becomes kind

39:02

of resource for that memory

39:04

to find expression and in that

39:06

expression to take your hands and to,

39:08

create something and he's the body

39:10

something Turn to create that

39:12

form. of transformation in and how

39:15

it are ultimately you know seeds who

39:18

you are here at your identity our identities

39:20

get any of your family of your people have a history

39:23

you certainly open up my heart and i'm really

39:26

grateful to you for taking the time today

39:28

and for sharing again we're if

39:30

i may so incredibly proud of you and

39:33

your such an important part of this community in

39:35

some wonderful to see you thrive in the way

39:37

you are The thank

39:39

you.

39:39

Thank you thank. you lord thank

39:42

you so much for inviting me to bless your for

39:44

me to be here in conversation

39:46

with you again

40:02

James. Webb is produced at of Art Center College

40:04

of Design I'd, like to extend

40:06

a special thanks to our small but mighty

40:08

production staff producer Christine

40:11

Spines for producer Lorne

40:13

Mahoney. , and Leave

40:15

and, Bergen and Post Production

40:17

Supervisor and Production Consultant,

40:20

Christopher homeless please

40:22

take a moment to support us you can do this by

40:24

heading to spot. A fire Apple Podcasts

40:27

to rate and review our show and

40:29

while you're at it shares with someone

40:31

who is curious about. the creative process

40:34

that's it for this week on changed