0:00

Welcome to change makers, a

0:02

podcast from APH. We're

0:05

talking to people from around the world

0:07

who are creating positive change in

0:09

the lives of people who are blind or visually

0:11

impaired. Here's your host.

0:16

Hello, and welcome to change makers. My name is

0:18

Sara Brown and I'm APH is public relations

0:20

manager today, or learning about

0:22

product development and what it all involves.

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We're also going to learn about the importance of

0:27

partnerships and a new dynamic,

0:30

tactile device. That's in the works at APH.

0:34

Now we're talking to APH

0:36

is director of educational product innovation,

0:39

Mark Renfrow. He knows everything

0:41

about product development and what it all involves

0:43

and is here to tell us more. Hello, Mark,

0:45

and welcome to Change Makers.

0:48

Oh, thank you so much for having me.

0:51

So as a Director

0:54

of Educational Product Innovation,

0:56

can you tell us what it is that you do at

0:58

APH?

1:00

Well, I have the honor of overseeing

1:02

all things related to the development

1:05

and product management of educational

1:07

products for the blind and visually

1:09

impaired. We create a lot of different

1:12

things, anything pretty much from , uh , computer

1:14

applications to , um,

1:17

very complex products.

1:19

How long does the process for a new product to

1:21

come to market?

1:23

Excellent question. Actually it

1:25

can be anywhere from about 18

1:27

months to sometimes over

1:30

four years. And it totally depends on the complexity

1:32

of the product and , uh, you

1:34

know, whether or not it's , um, uh, an application

1:37

or, you know, something that that's really involved

1:39

with a lot of different pieces , uh, some

1:41

products that say it's , uh , it's , it's a product

1:43

that comes in as an idea, and it's pretty

1:46

much already made and somebody

1:48

just wants to sell their idea

1:50

or to us, something

1:53

like that is not going to take very long. We can, we can get

1:55

that out and, you know , almost no time at all,

1:57

but if we have an idea of come in and,

1:59

you know, there's a lot of documented need for this idea

2:02

and, you know, we know it's important, so we want

2:04

to make it, but it's, you know, it's, it's just

2:06

an idea and it's fairly complex.

2:09

Uh , something like that can take, you know, from ideation

2:11

all the way until product launch, that

2:13

it can take four years of more. So

2:15

we have , uh, right now we have about

2:18

an average of two and a half years

2:20

for products. And that, that takes into account

2:22

some products that, you know, may only take a

2:24

few months and some products that take years.

2:26

And it totally depends on the products . Each

2:29

one's very, very unique, which we're trying to get the overall

2:31

average time down to about 18 months.

2:34

And that's what we're striving for, but we want to make

2:36

sure we maintain that quality. Uh,

2:38

and then there we're building products that

2:40

truly meet the needs of the blind and visually impaired

2:44

When developing a product. What's the most important

2:47

goal? Is it price, usability,

2:49

the demographics? What is it?

2:53

One of the most important things , um, in

2:55

addition to quality and , and that's , that's something

2:58

we strive for in each and every

3:00

product that we produce, we want to make sure that

3:02

it is of the highest quality and we run it through

3:05

lots and lots of quality checks.

3:07

And , and we , we have a process in a Stage-Gate

3:09

process in place that we run everything

3:11

through. And , uh , there are about six

3:13

stages and Gates and , uh

3:16

, theoretically we can kill the product. You know, let's

3:18

say for instance, if we find something wrong that could

3:20

be potentially dangerous to a student, now

3:22

we can kill it at any time in any one of those Gates.

3:25

Uh, so that , that's something that we build in to make

3:28

sure that we are building , uh

3:30

, the product that , that that's truly needed out there,

3:32

a product that's safe and of the highest

3:34

quality. So , um , as far

3:37

as factors that are important, this really,

3:39

truly depends on the type of product

3:41

that it is. But , uh, just generally

3:44

speaking, I think that universal design,

3:46

you know, making sure that we we're , we're building products

3:48

that can be used by, you know, more than just a very, very

3:50

specific , um, uh, audience,

3:53

but we w we build inclusivity

3:55

into pretty much everything we do. We wanna make

3:57

sure that kids aren't, you know,

3:59

just ostracized and sent into the corner

4:01

to work on something we want to , we want their classmates

4:04

working on things to , with them, so that

4:06

that's very important to us. So quality

4:08

low cost . Uh , we want to make sure

4:10

that quota dollars are being used wisely.

4:12

So we, you know, we, we try to build what

4:15

we can , um, with w

4:17

you know , as much quality as possible with

4:19

the lowest cost possible. And , and sometimes

4:21

it's challenging, but , uh, that's

4:24

what we do.

4:25

What's it like to improve upon current

4:27

products? I know last year, the

4:30

LED Mini Light Box had just

4:32

come out with some new changes. What does that

4:34

process look like? Improving current products?

4:38

Improving a current product is , is

4:40

very satisfying. Uh, it,

4:42

you know, it would be easy to sort of get hung up on,

4:44

Hey, we missed this the first go around, but sometimes

4:47

things change , uh, and sometimes

4:49

user needs change , uh , and

4:51

this and that necessitates redoing the

4:53

product or making it better, or, you know,

4:55

making some specific tweak , uh, so

4:58

that it can be more usable. Uh, you know , you

5:00

know, maybe the first go around. We didn't, it

5:02

wasn't quite as inclusive as it could have been. You know,

5:04

that that's something that we can go back and take a look

5:06

at and what we try to do with each.

5:08

And every product that we put out there is

5:10

we try to get a user feedback as

5:12

much as possible. And we are also

5:15

trying to get the user involved , uh

5:17

, as much as we can throughout the entire process,

5:19

because we want to make sure that we get it as right as

5:21

possible. Right out

5:24

of the gate. We want to make sure that this, this is the most

5:26

inclusive , um, you know , uh

5:28

, full featured product that , that we can make.

5:31

Uh, so what we do is, as far as modifications

5:34

is we take that user feedback , uh,

5:36

and it might be a survey, you know , it might just

5:38

be a direct call that somebody has made. Uh,

5:41

and we, we document

5:43

that we , um, and

5:45

, and , you know, say the product's been out there for a couple of years

5:47

and maybe, you know, maybe it's time to redo that particular

5:50

product. We've made sure that we incorporate

5:52

those suggestions into that product.

5:54

And of course we, we test and we

5:56

test and we test some more, we work, we're constantly

5:59

testing our products and we're constantly getting user

6:01

feedback and incorporating that into the final

6:03

product. So , um, as with pretty

6:05

much everything in product development, it really,

6:07

truly depends on the type of product

6:10

that it is now, if it's a , it's an app

6:12

, uh, that that's something that we can fix

6:14

pretty easily, you know, we can, you know

6:16

, we can get that , uh , pretty much

6:18

done on the flat , uh , and , and get it

6:20

back out there to be used. But

6:22

if it's a more complex product, a more

6:24

tangible product, that is something that would

6:26

need to go back through the process.

6:28

And then it's a little bit more involved, but , uh,

6:31

you know, we're able to do that. And,

6:33

you know, it , it , it would probably take a few months longer,

6:35

but we get it out there and it just depends

6:37

on the product. Uh, but we, we move as fast

6:39

as we can. Uh, and we're,

6:41

we're getting better and better at it all the time.

6:44

What would you want people to know when it comes to

6:46

product development ?

6:48

One thing I would like people to know is

6:50

it's not...don't have a sort

6:54

a process that happens behind

6:56

closed doors. It's not a , it's not a very private thing. It's

6:58

something that we would like to have as many

7:00

people involved in as we possibly

7:02

can. We want the field's input , uh

7:05

, throughout the entire process. And also of

7:07

course, when the, when , when the products out there, we

7:09

welcome that feedback. We, we truly want to

7:11

work with the field and we are looking constantly

7:13

for new ways to work with the field. And

7:16

we would like to , you know, the field to be involved

7:18

in the product from ideation all the way

7:20

to launch and beyond , uh,

7:22

we , we are , we're constantly looking for that input. So

7:24

I think that's the most important thing , uh

7:27

, that we can have is we want to , we want

7:29

to be sure that we're building the right products

7:31

, uh, very early on

7:34

and throughout the process.

7:36

And the last question, is there anything else

7:38

you'd like to mention?

7:40

Well , uh, I , I truly love my

7:42

job and , uh, I have the honor

7:45

of working with some very dedicated people.

7:47

Uh, pretty much everybody I've encountered at APH

7:50

has just been unbelievably dedicated.

7:52

And that's the one thing on my team. Um,

7:55

I worked with a bunch of smart people, and

7:57

I'm very fortunate in that regard, but

8:00

, uh , beyond, beyond that genius

8:02

that they put into product development. They're,

8:04

they're truly dedicated, you know, these, these are

8:07

people that, you know , I , I

8:09

wouldn't trade for the world. These are, these are people that I know

8:11

are going to get the job done in the , in the best

8:13

way possible. So that's very

8:16

comforting to me, and it should be

8:18

very comforting to the field as well.

8:20

Okay. Thank you so much, Mark, for joining

8:22

us today on Change Makers.

8:25

Thank you so much for having me

8:28

Up next. We're going to learn the importance of partnerships

8:31

when it comes to product development. If

8:39

you've been listening to Change Makers for awhile

8:41

, this next guest is someone who's a regular,

8:44

and he is so knowledgeable, and we love having

8:46

him on just to tell us what's in the pipeline

8:48

at APH. We have Head

8:50

of Global Innovation at APH Greg Stilson.

8:53

Hello, Greg. And welcome back to Change Makers. Hey,

8:55

Sara.

8:56

Thanks for having me.

8:58

So we've learned how a product comes to be

9:00

at APH, but what can you tell us

9:03

about any products that are in the works right now?

9:06

Yeah, I'm sure that some

9:08

of you have kind of already heard me talking about

9:10

the work we're doing on the dynamic tactical

9:12

device. Um, this is a

9:15

massive undertaking. Probably one

9:17

of the biggest that we're going to be involved in,

9:20

in decades, I would say, but it's

9:22

a , the goal of this product

9:24

or project is to create sort

9:26

of a tactal e-reader , for

9:29

blind and low-vision kids and

9:32

, and people in general, quite honestly , the

9:34

primary goal of this is to create

9:36

a, a piece of technology that can

9:38

produce tactical graphics and braille

9:41

on the same tactile surface. Um,

9:44

the number one goal here is to be

9:46

able to create a, essentially

9:48

like a Kindle type

9:51

product for , uh, for blind

9:53

people to be able to read books on, right? So

9:55

to wirelessly be able to download the book,

9:57

be able to access it , um, in

9:59

braille, in the same fashion that they would

10:01

essentially read a book

10:04

on hard copy braille. Um,

10:06

but our goal is to, to take it a

10:08

lot further than that, to be able to

10:10

enable this thing, to be connected to other devices,

10:13

to show graphical content and really focus

10:15

on the impromptu learning , uh,

10:17

aspect that a lot of our students

10:20

don't get access to, because

10:23

let's just say that a classroom teacher forgets

10:25

to make , uh , an image accessible

10:27

or provide, you know, information

10:30

ahead of time to get transcribed into braille. Um,

10:33

something like this could really enhance that,

10:35

that impromptu learning experience

10:38

Partnerships are vital in any

10:40

industry. Can you talk about the importance

10:42

of partnerships to make a product successful?

10:46

Yeah, absolutely. So APH,

10:48

we we've been around a long, long time and

10:51

we've, we've kind of gone through different

10:53

methods of product creation.

10:56

Um, and there's been a time when APH

10:59

would , would basically build everything from the

11:01

ground up from the product ideation

11:04

process to, you know,

11:06

building prototypes, to building the hardware

11:08

all internally here. Um,

11:11

and then we, we we've pivoted,

11:13

I would say over the last 10 years to really

11:16

focusing on a partnership model where

11:18

we involve partners from

11:21

the assistive technology industry,

11:23

from the mainstream industry , um,

11:25

to really help us build the

11:27

ideal products. Um, and APH

11:29

has really changed its role from

11:31

manufacturer to really

11:34

product. I would say, you know, product concept,

11:36

creator, customer experience,

11:39

creator , um, we've really focused

11:41

on the user experience and the specifications

11:44

of the product, but we've turned the manufacturing

11:47

and things like that over to those who really

11:49

have that expertise , um, in,

11:51

in high-tech manufacturing. Um, and

11:53

, and in many cases also software development.

11:56

We do have software developers here at APH,

11:58

but we can't do it all. So

12:00

we partner with other companies to help

12:02

us, you know, collaborate on software

12:04

and creation like that as well, with

12:07

something as big as the dynamic tackle

12:09

device , um, partnership is going

12:11

to be even more crucial

12:14

than, than it normally is. And that's because,

12:16

you know, the part of the product

12:19

, um, you know, the technology piece

12:21

is going to be developed with a partner. Um,

12:23

but then we also have to have the , uh

12:26

, creation of an entirely new braille

12:28

standard for braille textbooks that

12:31

can be consumed in a , in a dynamic

12:34

tactal , um, you know, electronic reading

12:36

form. Um, and that just really doesn't

12:38

exist today. The , the most common

12:42

standard that we have today is the BRF standard

12:44

that's created that was created

12:47

to , to create impossible content on

12:49

embossers, right. But, but

12:51

today students are going to be able to need to jump

12:53

to chapters. They're going to need to need to jump

12:55

to sections of a book, to

12:57

jump to tables and graphics and all that kind

12:59

of stuff that, you know, a sighted kid can do

13:01

just by flipping the pages. Um, but with

13:04

an , uh, an eText reader, you don't,

13:06

you don't have that flexibility. So a

13:08

new standards going to have to be created,

13:10

and that's going to require partnerships from

13:12

all over the world. Um, because our hope

13:14

here is that this standard and

13:16

this, this type of product is going to be

13:18

the next way that people really interact

13:21

with braille and tactile content. And so

13:23

, um, partnership, understanding

13:26

how different languages utilize

13:29

braille , how , um, what , what type

13:31

of tactal , um, you

13:34

know, tactile activities

13:36

people are doing in different countries. Um,

13:38

and most importantly, I would say evangelization

13:41

and , and championing this new standard

13:43

around the world so that it gains traction,

13:46

because if it doesn't gain traction, then the standard

13:48

doesn't really become a standard. So , um,

13:50

so that's a really long answer.

13:55

Oh , that's, that's so cool that

13:57

you all are creating you almost like you're creating

14:00

the playbook. That's huge.

14:03

Yeah. And like I said, we can't

14:06

create it alone. This is, this is one of those things

14:08

where partnership is, is really the

14:10

foundation of what has,

14:12

when you look at products. You know, one good

14:14

example is , the Mantis and Chameleon , products

14:18

that we co-developed with HumanWare.

14:21

Um, those, those were products that, that

14:24

APH really created the specification,

14:26

the vision for , um, but we

14:28

worked with , with our partner HumanWare to

14:30

create the hardware and, and

14:33

basically use the , or

14:35

work with their software engineers and our software

14:37

engineers to bring that sort of customer

14:39

experience to life. Um,

14:41

so you know, that, that product

14:44

, um, some other partnership products

14:46

that we were coming out with shortly, the Juno

14:49

FRA , uh , is a partnership with the Sparrow, the

14:51

same type of experience, right? We we've

14:53

sort of had the vision of what this product would

14:55

do from a software experience perspective.

14:59

Um, the Sparrow really is the hardware expertise.

15:01

They, they, they have that hardware expertise

15:04

and we collaborated with their software team to

15:06

sort of bring that customer vision

15:08

to life

15:10

As head of global innovation. I'm sure you've

15:12

seen plenty of products that have come to market

15:14

and some that just never materialized . What

15:17

can you tell us about that whole process?

15:20

Sure. Um, so,

15:23

you know, part of in, in innovation

15:25

I've , I've had mentors and , and even

15:27

my current boss has told me, you

15:30

know, it's okay to fail as long as you fail quickly

15:33

and move on to something else, right? Say you just

15:35

don't want to , you don't want to get hung up on something. That's

15:37

going to be a failure. And then , uh , you know

15:39

, invest tons of resources and time

15:41

into it , um, you know, fail

15:43

fast and move on. Um, and

15:46

I would say that here at APH, our product

15:48

development process is, is

15:50

really thorough. Um,

15:53

and one, one example of a way

15:55

that, you know, an idea on surface

15:57

may sound really, really good. Um,

16:00

but because of our processes, it gets

16:02

sort of filtered out due

16:05

to us needing to do a

16:07

needs assessment. So part of what we need

16:09

to ensure that we're doing , um, because

16:11

of the federal quota system is we need to ensure

16:13

before we invest resources into a product,

16:16

that there is a need in the

16:18

field for that product. And so, you

16:21

know, we get hundreds

16:23

and hundreds and hundreds of product ideas submitted to

16:26

APH. Some

16:29

of them are really awesome and then

16:31

some of them are kind of off the wall,

16:33

right. And , um, but we look

16:35

at each and every one of them and we

16:37

run through our filtering process , uh,

16:40

that we do. But one of the things that is involved

16:42

if it gets to this stage is what's called a

16:44

needs assessment. And what that is is oftentimes

16:47

a survey. I'm sure many of you

16:49

have received a survey request

16:51

from APH. Um, and

16:53

the reason you get these surveys oftentimes

16:56

is for a needs assessment of whether there

16:58

is a need in the field for

17:01

an idea that we're considering. Right.

17:03

And so we may think

17:05

, uh, and I, you know, I'm a blind person

17:08

myself. I've seen these ideas

17:10

right, where I'm like, man, that would be really cool.

17:12

Right. But then after we get a

17:14

survey of, let's say 500 to a thousand

17:16

people that respond , um,

17:19

maybe that, that survey, the data

17:21

shows us that actually the field isn't

17:23

looking for something like this, there are

17:25

our assumptions of what is happening

17:28

in the classroom or in the market may not

17:30

be exactly right. And so

17:32

for us, I think that that's probably the most

17:35

common place that you will see an idea

17:37

, um, you know, dissolve

17:40

at that point and we'll move on to another

17:42

project. And I think that that's a really good way

17:45

for us to ensure that we're devoting

17:48

our resources, the right things.

17:51

Um, so I would say that's a

17:53

great spot in our process where,

17:55

where we're ensuring that we're,

17:57

we're putting our resources in the right places.

18:00

Wow. That's really interesting. And I mean, that's,

18:02

I mean, that makes sense. There's no need to reinvent

18:05

the wheel in no need to spend

18:07

all that time and energy effort

18:10

and money when there's

18:13

not a market out there, or, you know, it's

18:15

not going to be well-received

18:16

Right. And I, and I think that, you know, we, we

18:18

only have so many resources , um,

18:21

and we only have so many, so many developers

18:23

and product managers and things like that here

18:26

that can, can be devoted to something.

18:28

Right. And so , um, ensuring

18:30

that what we're doing actually

18:33

has a need in the market is, is part

18:35

of really APH is lifeblood.

18:37

Um, oftentimes I'll come to a meeting and

18:39

I'll be like, guys, what do you think of this idea? And like,

18:42

everybody's like, Oh, that's a great idea. That's awesome. And then

18:44

we'll do a needs assessment or we'll do a survey

18:46

and, and, you know, my assumptions

18:49

aren't aren't right. And , and I think that that's

18:51

part of , um, as, as I've grown,

18:53

as being a product manager, but also being

18:56

a blind individual myself, right. Is I'm

18:58

not building products for Greg I'm building

19:00

products for the field and

19:02

for people who are blind or low vision, and

19:05

everybody has different needs, everybody has

19:07

different requirements. And so

19:09

part of, I think, where this is really

19:11

valuable, right, is it kind of takes your internal

19:14

bias out of it. And now you're using data

19:16

, uh , which really never lies

19:19

to, to make your decisions.

19:21

Wow. That's true. The data , the data never

19:23

lies. Okay. So the last

19:25

question I have for you, is there

19:27

anything else you want to talk about

19:29

or mention when it comes to product

19:31

development?

19:34

I, I think that, as

19:37

I mentioned, those surveys that we send out, I know that

19:39

we, we probably can

19:41

ping you guys with a lot of surveys. Um,

19:43

and you get a lot of requests and things like that. I

19:46

hope that this sort of needs assessment

19:48

, um, explanation and things like that

19:50

, um, make sense, and

19:52

that you have a little bit more understanding of why

19:54

you're getting those surveys , um, because

19:57

those surveys , uh, do determine

20:00

what, you know, what things will move

20:02

forward. It really does , um,

20:04

make an impact and what products we spend time

20:06

on and what products could, could come to market.

20:08

So , um, I just, I wanna

20:11

say thank you in advance for the

20:13

time that you invest into those surveys. Um,

20:15

we do read every single one of those.

20:18

We look at every data point , um,

20:20

to determine really what we're going to be doing. So

20:22

, um, just in advance, thank you

20:24

for taking the time to do

20:26

those surveys, to be looking at those needs

20:28

assessments that we're working on. Um,

20:30

and giving you honest feedback because , um,

20:32

it, it is really what makes

20:35

or breaks a product from happening.

20:38

That's very true. All right, Greg, thank

20:40

you so much for joining us today on Change Makers.

20:43

Thanks so much for having me. We

20:46

hope you have today's podcast. Be sure

20:48

to look for ways you can be a change maker this

20:50

week.