0:00

What happens to

0:00

those professional sports people

0:03

and athletes who don't hit the

0:03

big time? What do they do when

0:06

they've poured themselves into

0:06

this incredibly competitive and

0:10

tough career, and then it just

0:10

doesn't work out? That's what

0:14

we're going to find out in this

0:14

week's interview. I'm Jeremy

0:16

Cline, and this is Change Work Life. Hello, and welcome to Change

0:34

Work Life, the podcast that's

0:37

all about beating the Sunday

0:37

evening blues and enjoying

0:39

Mondays again. If you want to

0:39

know how you can enjoy a more

0:42

satisfying and fulfilling

0:42

working life, you're in the

0:44

right place. And don't forget to

0:44

subscribe to the show, so you

0:48

don't miss the great interviews

0:48

we've got lined up. What do you

0:51

do with a professional sporting

0:51

career once you're done? A tiny

0:55

minority might be set up for

0:55

life from their career. But what

0:58

about those who don't earn the

0:58

big bucks and who don't go into

1:01

something related, like sports

1:01

coaching? What if for some

1:05

reason your time as a

1:05

professional sports person is

1:07

much shorter than you might

1:07

expect? My guest this week is

1:10

Ryan Gonsalves, professional

1:10

footballer turned banker and

1:14

founder of 2ndwind, where he's

1:14

on a mission to inspire

1:17

high-performing individuals to

1:17

discover a lifestyle and career

1:20

they love. Ryan also hosts the

1:20

2ndwind podcast. Ryan, welcome

1:25

to the show.

1:26

Thanks very much for having me.

1:27

Why don't you start by telling us a bit more about your coaching clients? So,

1:29

who they are and what you do to

1:31

help them?

1:32

Yeah,

1:32

absolutely. The clients that I

1:36

tend to coach are those who are

1:36

elite athletes, usually towards

1:42

the end of their career, or just

1:42

as they are retiring from their

1:46

sport. And the reason I work

1:46

with them is to help them

1:50

realise what transferable skills

1:50

they have, what competencies and

1:54

capabilities they can take from

1:54

their sporting exploits, and

1:59

help bring them or unleash

1:59

themselves into their second

2:04

wind. That sounded very complex.

2:08

What are the

2:08

perhaps more unique challenges

2:11

that these types of people face

2:11

compared with us mere mortals

2:14

who weren't elite athletes?

2:16

I think the real

2:16

discerning difference for them

2:19

is living their career often in

2:19

front of spectators and

2:25

audience, thousands, tens of

2:25

thousands of fans, be it in the

2:29

stadium, on TV, or through

2:29

society. What I do recognise is

2:35

the challenges they face are not

2:35

necessarily too different from

2:39

the challenges that people, as

2:39

you say mere mortals, but those

2:43

of us who are in normal

2:43

day-to-day jobs that would face,

2:46

which is if you dedicate a lot

2:46

of your time into one particular

2:50

discipline, it's often very

2:50

difficult or challenging to be

2:55

inspired to look outside of that

2:55

discipline and say, 'Well, if

2:59

I'm not doing this job, or if

2:59

I'm not in this particular

3:01

field, what else could I do?'

3:04

So, it's a question of identity.

3:06

So much so is

3:06

linked to identity. It really

3:10

is. One rugby league player

3:10

mentioned to me, coming towards

3:14

the twilight of his career, and

3:14

he said to me, and it just stuck

3:17

with me, but he said, 'I've

3:17

spent my whole life telling

3:21

people I'm a rugby league

3:21

player, and that I want to play

3:25

rugby, and that's going to

3:25

stop.' And that for me was

3:28

compelling. He said it so

3:28

simply, so earnestly, and it

3:32

just made me think, yes, he said

3:32

that his whole life. I want to

3:36

be a rugby player. I am a rugby

3:36

player. And now, what's he going

3:40

to say?

3:41

And this is

3:41

something that I've had in

3:43

previous interviews, it does

3:43

come up time and again, so you

3:46

might have someone in my

3:46

position, a lawyer, who's been a

3:49

lawyer for 20 years, I suppose

3:49

the difference is that I can be

3:53

a lawyer for another 20 years,

3:53

if I choose to. Whereas

3:57

presumably professional rugby

3:57

league player, I mean, they're

3:59

not going to carry on beyond

3:59

their, what, mid-30s.

4:02

That's right.

4:02

And look, I think, it's probably

4:05

remiss of me to skip that bit

4:05

out, but it is a factor that,

4:09

when you enter into sport, in

4:09

the back of your mind, you know

4:13

Yeah, I guess

4:13

there's really very few sports

4:14

at some point it's going to have

4:14

to stop. And often the reason

4:18

why it's going to stop is not

4:18

from your choosing. But it will

4:22

simply be because someone has

4:22

become better than you at that

4:26

particular action, activity,

4:26

physical exploit that you do.

4:30

And that in itself is often

4:30

really challenging, because it's

4:35

going to stop no matter how much

4:35

you achieve and where you want

4:39

to go. Very, very few athletes

4:39

are in a luxurious position

4:43

where they can say, 'Yeah, I'm

4:43

ready. I've achieved everything

4:48

beyond my wildest dreams. And

4:48

now I'm ready to hang up the

4:52

gloves, get out of the pool,

4:52

leave the court.'

4:58

that lend themselves to any kind

4:58

of longevity. I mean, I do

5:01

remember watching, I think it

5:01

was like a US Golf Masters, and

5:06

there was one of the old greats

5:06

who was, I think he was in his

5:09

late 70s or 80s, and he was

5:09

still playing, he was still

5:12

competing. But that's got to be

5:12

a really rare situation.

5:15

Yeah, I think it is. And it depends on the level of physical exertion that you

5:17

have. So, for many, if it's a

5:24

sport that requires a lot of

5:24

skill, then that skill you can

5:28

hone. The challenge that you

5:28

face is the ability to repeat

5:31

it. So, you might be able to do

5:31

it once. Me at my age, I could

5:36

probably play a minute or two at

5:36

the intensity required of a

5:41

professional footballer today.

5:41

But that minute is not enough.

5:45

Can I train? Can I keep going at

5:45

that pace? So, when you have

5:50

certain skills, certain things,

5:50

you throw a football at, I'm

5:56

trying to think, someone like

5:56

say, Beckham, or Zidane, and you

5:59

throw a football at them, and they will still be able to control it. And they'll still

6:01

have that perfect, natural

6:05

grace, because that was

6:05

something that they have trained

6:07

and practised over years. So,

6:07

that piece will still be there.

6:11

Could they do it still if you

6:11

gave it to them a hundred times?

6:14

Can they still do that whilst

6:14

moving at the pace that they

6:17

used to move? So, that's where

6:17

generally age tends to get in

6:22

the way and force an athlete to

6:22

have to reconsider their career

6:26

options.

6:27

So, you've

6:27

mentioned two of the greatest

6:29

there. When you were playing,

6:29

when you were a professional

6:33

footballer, who was your era,

6:33

who were the great stars at the

6:38

time?

6:38

Well, the Leeds

6:38

United team that I grew up in

6:41

was, I guess, one of the

6:41

greatest or one of the best

6:46

Leeds United teams, certainly in

6:46

the modern era. So, in that team

6:50

was, I've been in Australia now,

6:50

I have to say the likes of Harry

6:53

Kewell was in that team. They

6:53

had Woodgate. We had Jackson. We

6:59

had Harte. Those were some of

6:59

the players that were in that

7:05

particular squad. And we would

7:05

have been a couple of years

7:08

behind the likes of the class of

7:08

94, so David Beckham, Scholes,

7:15

Cantona, that era. Now, my time

7:15

at Leeds United wasn't as long

7:20

as I'd have wanted, but it was

7:20

just as a junior, but that just

7:23

gives an element of the calibre

7:23

of player that I grew up with as

7:27

a young lad before moving to

7:27

sign your professionally at

7:31

Huddersfield Town.

7:32

So, talk me

7:32

through how you got to being a

7:36

junior at Leeds. I mean, how

7:36

does this come about that you're

7:40

in this position where an

7:40

enormous club like Leeds is

7:44

going, 'Let's give this bloke Ryan a go.'

7:47

It starts for

7:47

me, so my time at Leeds was

7:53

playing for the City of Leeds

7:53

City Boys. And for me, it

7:57

started actually by accident,

7:57

honestly. I got into the game

8:00

because I had to go with my

8:00

older brother. So, my mum

8:04

raising me and my brother, I

8:04

wanted to play football because

8:08

he did, two years older than me.

8:08

So, I just went where he went.

8:11

And so, I was always playing up

8:11

those two years. So, I never saw

8:15

football as this passion. It was

8:15

just something I did. It was

8:19

fun. I enjoyed it. And it wasn't

8:19

until they moved to maybe on the

8:24

fifteens, and then so me as a

8:24

13-year-old, suddenly went to my

8:28

own age group. And in my own age

8:28

group, I felt I'm taller than

8:33

everyone, or I'm at the same

8:33

height as everybody, when I run,

8:36

I'm faster than everybody. Hey,

8:36

what's going on here? So,

8:40

suddenly, I recognised there was

8:40

a physical ability that came

8:43

about, and I, to an extent,

8:43

suddenly found myself being

8:48

invited to go to trials playing

8:48

through school. And essentially,

8:52

the way it worked was, I was one

8:52

of the best players in my

8:56

school, I was one of the best

8:56

players in the district of

8:59

schools, and so I ended up

8:59

playing or representing Leeds

9:03

City schools in that regard. And

9:03

it just flowed therefore, it

9:08

just flowed from there. But I

9:08

knew nothing and had really no

9:12

desire to become a professional

9:12

footballer at that time.

9:16

So, what drew you

9:16

then to become a professional

9:20

footballer, if you didn't have

9:20

this boyhood ambition to want to

9:24

play for Leeds United?

9:26

I enjoyed it.

9:26

And so, because I enjoyed

9:29

playing, I enjoyed playing at

9:29

school, I then went and played

9:34

club football, I enjoyed playing

9:34

for my local club Beeston. I

9:38

then enjoyed playing for Leeds

9:38

schools. And then, when Leeds

9:45

turned around and said, 'Look,

9:45

schoolboy, we've got a team,

9:47

it's not you', I was like, 'Oh,

9:47

well, I kind of still want to

9:50

play.' And it was a family

9:50

friend who came to me and said,

9:54

'Well, hey, have you considered

9:54

going to trial at Huddersfield?

9:57

They're one of the local teams,

9:57

only the division below. There's

10:01

a great opportunity.' And I just

10:01

thought, well, I've enjoyed

10:04

playing at that high level where

10:04

I feel pushed, so I should

10:08

continue to go ahead and do

10:08

that. And so, it wasn't really a

10:14

strong desire to say, hey, my

10:14

whole life, I wanted to be about

10:18

football. It was very much about

10:18

the fact I enjoyed playing the

10:22

game, I enjoyed the environment

10:22

that we had as youngsters, and I

10:26

enjoyed winning. And that

10:26

naturally led itself to me

10:30

playing at Huddersfield. And I

10:30

remember it vividly, we just

10:34

played a game against

10:34

Chesterfield towards the end of

10:37

my under-16 career, so it must

10:37

have been May, just about

10:41

kicking off to go into GCSEs,

10:41

and the head coach, Kevin

10:46

Blackwell, came over and he

10:46

said, 'Gons, we want to offer

10:50

you an apprenticeship position.'

10:50

And it was a muddy field, and I

10:55

was busy washing my hands of all

10:55

the mud. And he said, 'Gonzo,

11:00

this is a big deal.' I was like,

11:00

'Yeah, yeah, I know, I am really

11:03

happy.' But I was washing the

11:03

mud of my hands, and I was like,

11:06

I've got to get the mud off my

11:06

hands first. I was probably the

11:08

cleanest defender that you'll

11:08

ever meet. And so, that sort of

11:12

took over my whole thinking at

11:12

the time. And it wasn't really

11:15

until after that conversation,

11:15

that moment, finishing my exams

11:20

and starting, that I was like,

11:20

'Oh, wow, this is good. My job

11:25

is, I'm doing something I enjoy

11:25

every day. Ah, I like that.'

11:32

It's interesting,

11:32

hearing like you kind of fell

11:35

into it, rather than it being

11:35

this driving, you know,

11:40

something you'd wanted to do at

11:40

age 11. You were just following

11:43

your brother around and then

11:43

kind of getting spotted and then

11:45

getting spotted again, and then

11:45

someone's saying, 'Ryan, we'd

11:48

like you to do this for your job.'

11:50

More than fell

11:50

in, I think, in the end, I did

11:52

jump. So, there was an effort

11:52

that was required. So, at a

11:58

young age, the trouble for me to

11:58

go from Leeds to Huddersfield

12:01

for training. So, there was an

12:01

intention on doing my best or

12:06

being my best. And that was an

12:06

environment where I could do

12:11

that. So, it wasn't necessarily

12:11

that I was attracted to being a

12:14

footballer itself, but I was

12:14

attracted to performing, I was

12:19

attracted to setting standards.

12:19

And that's where the love came,

12:23

that's where the energy came

12:23

from. It wasn't this, hey, I

12:26

want to be a footballer, great,

12:26

I've been a footballer. But it

12:29

was much more, I'm good, I'm

12:29

enjoying, and this is great, I

12:33

want to do more of this. How do

12:33

I do more of this?

12:36

When you're 16

12:36

years old, just finished your

12:39

GCSEs, you probably don't give

12:39

much thought to the future. I

12:43

mean, you're just this wide-eyed

12:43

kid. But when you first started

12:48

your apprenticeship, do you have

12:48

any ambitions at that point?

12:53

Oh, look, I had,

12:53

what emerged eventually was

12:58

being captain of England, and

12:58

lifting the World Cup for

13:02

England. That was what I set out

13:02

to achieve. And I had these

13:11

desires, I think we already knew

13:11

the World Cup 98 was going to be

13:15

in France. And I thought, wow,

13:15

what if I could be 21 and be

13:20

like this young player playing

13:20

for England. And so, I had that

13:23

sort of vision that I then

13:23

became a bit more anchored to.

13:29

And that, I remember thinking,

13:29

when I was going through

13:33

preseason, I was playing, and I

13:33

started to look a lot more at

13:36

who players were. Because you

13:36

have to remember that, we're

13:40

talking the early 90s, mid-90s,

13:40

me as a footballer, we didn't

13:44

have as much information as you

13:44

do today about who's playing and

13:47

all of their attributes and

13:47

everything. So, I was guided

13:51

much more about what I saw. And

13:51

so, who are the players that I

13:55

could see, and how often did I

13:55

get to see football and sport?

13:59

And I didn't have, I'm going to

13:59

say an aspiration to look at

14:03

the, you know, I didn't go to

14:03

Elland Road every week, which is

14:07

Leeds United home ground, and

14:07

watch them play and fall in love

14:10

with the magic of that. And so,

14:10

it was very much about me,

14:16

sometimes I say selfish, but I

14:16

enjoyed what I was doing, and so

14:22

I just wanted to keep enjoying

14:22

that. And that medium for me at

14:25

the time was through football.

14:25

And that was wonderful.

14:29

Why don't you just

14:29

briefly take us through how it

14:32

then panned out, so what did

14:32

happen over the next few years?

14:36

Yeah, sure

14:36

thing. So, I could say, at 16

14:39

left school, went joined

14:39

Huddersfield Town on the

14:43

apprenticeship, loved it, fell

14:43

in love with the town, fell in

14:45

love with the club, and fell in

14:45

love with being a footballer and

14:49

finding that passion. After

14:49

apprenticeship, I then signed

14:54

professional terms with them. At

14:54

the end of my professional

14:58

contract, so that first

14:58

contract, it wasn't renewed, I

15:02

wasn't offered an ongoing

15:02

contract, and that then gave me

15:07

a decision point, could I

15:07

continue to go on trial with

15:11

other clubs around the country.

15:11

And in the end, heavily

15:15

influenced by my mum, I opted to

15:15

go semi-professional, and go to

15:21

university at the same time. And

15:21

so, from that point, about 20

15:26

years old, I was then playing

15:26

semi-professionally and went to

15:30

university, went to the

15:30

University of Huddersfield, in

15:34

order to, I picked marketing and

15:34

French for the fun of it. And

15:38

so, that's where I ended up

15:38

studying and playing, very

15:42

challenging time for me, which

15:42

we'll certainly be able to come

15:46

back to. But then, because I had

15:46

a language, I was then offered

15:51

the opportunity to study and

15:51

work overseas. So, having never

15:56

really travelled overseas, I

15:56

then went ahead and did that.

15:59

And that's where I then would go

15:59

to the nearest club that had

16:02

floodlights, and knock on the

16:02

door, and say in French, 'Can I

16:07

come along and play?' Of course,

16:07

they would generally laugh at

16:10

me, who's this person with bad

16:10

English? What do they think we

16:12

are? We're not just some amateur

16:12

club. But I would then trial,

16:16

and obviously, I'd do well. And

16:16

so, that enabled me to then

16:21

start to play my football in the

16:21

lower leagues, or non-leagues in

16:25

France and Belgium, as well as

16:25

playing across the UK, so in

16:30

England, and then also spending

16:30

a season in Wales. And that's

16:35

really how it continued to when

16:35

I was about 24, 25 years old,

16:39

when the uni had finished, and

16:39

it was time for me to make a

16:44

bigger decision about what do I

16:44

do, and I chose to sort of leave

16:48

football and those aspirations

16:48

behind and move into, I guess, a

16:54

more normal or more consistent

16:54

workforce.

16:57

Okay. Before we

16:57

come on to that, there's a

16:59

couple of things you said I'd

16:59

love to pick up on. First of

17:02

all, what does semi-professional

17:02

actually mean?

17:05

It means that I

17:05

trained, or that you train three

17:09

times a week, and those three

17:09

times would be, let's say, turn

17:13

up for training at six, seven

17:13

o'clock, and you would train for

17:17

two hours in the evening. And

17:17

you do that three times a week.

17:21

And then, you play on a

17:21

Saturday. That was in the fifth

17:24

tier of the English League. And

17:24

what that meant is, your games

17:28

were still across the country,

17:28

it's just that you're not

17:32

getting paid full time for that

17:32

job. Now, 20 years old,

17:37

honestly, the money that you

17:37

earn as a semi-professional, I

17:40

suspect, had I been living differently, would have been enough just to survive, it's

17:41

absolutely fine as a young

17:45

person. But for most of the

17:45

older ones, they have to have

17:49

flexible jobs, where they can

17:49

leave work at 4pm, get to

17:53

training, maybe get to an

17:53

evening away match as well. So,

17:57

there's a lot of flexibility that's required.

18:00

You talked about

18:00

having been heavily influenced

18:02

by your mother in this decision.

18:02

Can you talk more about that?

18:05

Yeah. Well,

18:05

interestingly, when they told me

18:08

that I wasn't getting a new

18:08

contract, it was a weird feeling

18:13

for me, because I had kind of

18:13

just thought, 'Oh, this is it

18:17

now, I just lock up and play,

18:17

and I'm going to have a great

18:19

time. This is awesome.' So, when

18:19

that happened, my mum, who had

18:26

been sceptical of this, my mum

18:26

and dad, both born over in St.

18:33

Kitts over in the West Indies,

18:33

migrated across to England, they

18:36

had a very challenging

18:36

upbringing in 70s Northern

18:41

England as young black children.

18:41

And so, for me then to be in

18:49

this football career, and

18:49

looking at the abuse that

18:52

players had at that time, my mum

18:52

was never really a fan of me

18:56

going down that route and

18:56

putting myself in a position

18:59

where 40,000 people could be

18:59

hurling abuse at me. So, when

19:04

the contract wasn't offered, she

19:04

really looked at that and said,

19:09

'Okay, are you going to go to

19:09

university? Are you going to now

19:12

study?' And kind of drew a line

19:12

under it. And because she's a

19:17

very strong influence on me, and

19:17

still is to this day, I took

19:20

that as, oh, okay, maybe, maybe

19:20

I should stop. This doesn't need

19:25

to be a full-time thing for me

19:25

anymore. And I can do it part

19:29

time. And hey, do you know what?

19:29

I enjoy playing football. I'll

19:32

still play four times a week.

19:32

That's great. And that's

19:36

essentially how I then applied

19:36

and was lucky enough to get into

19:39

university.

19:41

There's always a

19:41

danger playing what-if games,

19:43

but do you ever think what if?

19:45

Oh, 100%. You

19:45

know, I think many people say

19:48

you can live life without

19:48

regrets. I think for me the

19:51

regret there, so that for me is

19:51

one of the regrets. That is one

19:55

of those what-if moments for me.

19:55

And I think of that because,

20:00

whilst it's a regret, I think

20:00

you learn a lot from regrets

20:03

with that right view. And that

20:03

for me was, I wish I knew more

20:08

about the game, I wish I knew

20:08

more about the opportunities

20:11

that were opened, that were

20:11

there for me to take before I

20:15

had made a decision. And that

20:15

today is something that I live

20:18

by. Because as I reflect on not

20:18

pursuing or continuing to pursue

20:24

full-time football, I saw the

20:24

players whose abilities I'd look

20:29

and think, oh, well, yeah,

20:29

they've developed, but I

20:32

remember I was ahead of them in

20:32

terms of development and ability

20:35

and cognitive ability in the

20:35

game. Had I continued and just

20:41

dropped down the league,

20:41

continued to play and develop,

20:44

would I have come back and play

20:44

to that level? Was that in me?

20:48

Physically, was I capable of

20:48

doing that? And obviously, I

20:52

think yes. How can I go through

20:52

that thought process and think

20:56

no, I wouldn't? So, it's

20:56

something that I look at now and

20:59

think, 'Ah, what could I have

20:59

done differently?'

21:03

So, you're playing

21:03

semi-pro in the UK and in

21:08

Europe, you've just finished

21:08

university, and you mentioned

21:12

then, or actually, no, before we go into that, there was something else you wanted to

21:14

talk about, which was the challenges in this sort of

21:16

semi-pro university life. So,

21:20

tell us a bit more about that.

21:21

Yeah, it was

21:21

probably one of the hardest

21:24

moments of, as I look back,

21:24

probably one of the hardest

21:26

moments of my life. I was out, I

21:26

was living by myself. My pro

21:34

career at Huddersfield had

21:34

ended. I started university. And

21:40

because I was someone who always

21:40

thought, well, you got to do

21:43

your best, what's the standard?

21:43

Okay, I need to at least hit the

21:47

standard and move forward. So, I

21:47

was going to university and

21:52

studying, as I should have done,

21:52

lectures at 9am, I was playing

21:56

football, then training at 7pm.

21:56

And then, I thought, hold on,

22:02

some of these students, they

22:02

have jobs, I need to get a

22:05

part-time job as well. So, I got

22:05

a part-time job working at the

22:08

Marriott Hotel in Leeds. So, I

22:08

was still playing

22:12

semi-professional football,

22:12

being a dedicated or diligent

22:16

student, and working in a hotel

22:16

bar. I'll admit, I worked on

22:23

Sundays and Monday evenings, so

22:23

they were very chill, very

22:27

chilled out time. I couldn't

22:27

deal with anything too busy. But

22:31

what it would mean is that I was

22:31

more tired than I'd ever been

22:34

before. And the hardest bit was

22:34

my football deteriorated. From

22:40

loving the game and being able

22:40

to put my everything into it,

22:43

all of that passion, all of that

22:43

energy, I couldn't, because I

22:47

was tired. Because I still had

22:47

to get up at 7am to get across

22:52

to Huddersfield for a nine

22:52

o'clock lecture. I was

22:56

exhausted. I wasn't always in a

22:56

car, so I was doing public

23:00

transport, and my days suddenly

23:00

became 15 hours, 18 hours. And

23:05

the hardest thing for me was,

23:05

why am I not improving in

23:07

football? What's going on? And

23:07

for a brief moment, I fell out

23:12

of love with the game, because

23:12

suddenly I was like, well, I'm

23:15

not enjoying this, I'm not

23:15

playing well. And I got used to

23:21

being a footballer, as brief as

23:21

it was, and being an excellent

23:24

footballer, and trying to be an

23:24

A star student and a good barman

23:30

and a top footballer, just took

23:30

its toll. And I saw myself

23:36

becoming average in the things

23:36

that I was doing,

23:40

And playing the

23:40

what-if question again, if you

23:43

had your time again, what would

23:43

you have done differently?

23:46

I would have

23:46

gone, the overall it comes back

23:50

to what I've done after I was

23:50

released, I think I would have

23:54

gone on trial. I would have

23:54

played somewhere else. Because

23:59

now I recognise, I love moving,

23:59

I love being overseas, I love

24:03

new environments, I actually

24:03

thrive in those opportunities.

24:08

So, I would have done that. That

24:08

would have been a decision point

24:11

that I would have made. I would

24:11

have done that differently. Even

24:14

bigger than that, what I didn't

24:14

realise when I was a footballer,

24:19

is that you're on trial every

24:19

day. Every training session

24:24

matters. And so, if you do not

24:24

perform on Wednesday, you're not

24:30

picked on Saturday. Easy. That

24:30

one training session when

24:35

they're looking for, oh, can

24:35

Ryan do this, I wonder, if you

24:39

don't perform at that moment,

24:39

often you've lost that chance.

24:44

The chance may come back, it may

24:44

come there if you're lucky. But

24:48

you're on trial every day. And

24:48

that's a pressure that I never

24:50

put on myself. But it's also a

24:50

pressure I wasn't aware of. It

24:55

wasn't until afterwards that I

24:55

started to realise, oh, I was on

25:01

trial that day. That day when

25:01

they moved me up to train with

25:04

the first team, I didn't realise

25:04

I was supposed to put my whole

25:10

effort in and play like this was

25:10

a great opportunity. I just

25:13

thought I was making the numbers.

25:15

There is a certain

25:15

naivety of youth, isn't there?

25:18

Because I remember when I

25:18

started my legal career, and I'm

25:23

a trainee, I know nothing, even

25:23

what I qualified, I knew

25:26

nothing. And I was having a

25:26

conversation with someone about

25:30

it. And I suppose presumably, in

25:30

a few years' time, they'll start

25:33

looking for whether I've got the

25:33

sorts of attributes for

25:36

partnership. And the person I

25:36

was talking to looked around at

25:40

me and said, 'No, no, no,

25:40

they're looking at this now.

25:43

They are assessing you now for

25:43

whether you've got the potential

25:46

to be a partner in this law firm.'

25:48

Yeah, yes, it

25:48

is. And it takes that

25:51

conversation or that realisation

25:51

to go, oh, right, do I have time

25:57

to do something about that now?

25:57

Do I want to go there? Do I want

26:00

that? And, yeah, I get it. And

26:00

to me, it was a naivety, because

26:07

I played for fun. And so, I

26:07

really enjoyed my team, I really

26:13

enjoyed supporting other members

26:13

in the team to develop, and one

26:17

chap, a former teammate at the

26:17

time said, he said, 'Yeah, I

26:22

remember, it was to a fault.'

26:22

Sometimes there's too much

26:25

about, on the team, hey, we're

26:25

all going to win, we're going to

26:29

come up together and drive

26:29

forward in this way. Which

26:32

really worked for the team. So,

26:32

the team did well. But at times,

26:36

as he said, it was too humble.

26:36

And he was probably the first

26:40

person to say that to me, and

26:40

that's only a few years ago. And

26:43

it was a shock. I was like, all

26:43

those moments of thinking, hey,

26:49

we're just playing, this is

26:49

great, with the team, let's go

26:51

ahead and do this. And the

26:51

realisation, okay, the

26:55

realisation was many years ago,

26:55

but that realisation of, you're

26:59

on trial every day, how are you

26:59

going to cope with that?

27:02

So, when it comes to the switch to, I think you called it a real life or a more

27:03

conventional life, I mean, what

27:07

does that look like for you? What happened then?

27:09

Well, during my

27:09

university, I did a lot of

27:14

coaching over in the US. So, I

27:14

would play football and study.

27:19

And then, in the northern

27:19

hemisphere summer, I'd go to the

27:22

US, I would coach for that

27:22

season. That opened my eyes to a

27:27

level of socioeconomic status,

27:27

for want of a better phrase,

27:31

that I had never seen before. I

27:31

saw houses, I saw cars, I saw

27:39

school football fields and

27:39

facilities that I just didn't

27:43

really know existed. Okay, we

27:43

had bits and things on MTV,

27:48

Cribs and things like that, that

27:48

we started to see as we grew up,

27:51

but I hadn't really appreciated

27:51

the way that people lived and

27:55

what wealth or, some privilege,

27:55

but mostly wealth would bring to

28:00

you. And that opened my eyes up

28:00

then to, wow, hold on. Is that

28:05

what I would want? Okay, what

28:05

jobs did these people do? How

28:08

did they afford this lifestyle?

28:08

And that started to trickle into

28:13

my mind in terms of, okay, I can

28:13

keep doing football, but there's

28:17

something else out here, I need

28:17

to figure out what that is. So,

28:21

when I did graduate, I moved

28:21

with my girlfriend now wife to

28:25

the south of France, randomly,

28:25

but we moved to the south of

28:28

France, to Lyon, to be precise,

28:28

but we moved there because I

28:33

started to realise that my

28:33

university degree wasn't going

28:37

to get me one of the jobs that

28:37

helped me to live the life I saw

28:42

over in the US. And so,

28:42

mentally, I kind of went to this

28:45

point of, it seems as though the

28:45

best thing to do after

28:47

university is to go and live a

28:47

life somewhere and just enjoy

28:50

yourself. So, my wife and I

28:50

moved, worked for the AA down in

28:55

France in their contact centre

28:55

for a while. English, French,

28:59

bilingual translation, English

28:59

car driving through France

29:02

breaks down, they phone me, I

29:02

phone a French mechanic,

29:06

essentially that's the base

29:06

model. And after a while, I then

29:10

started to realise, okay, well,

29:10

what's next? France was a very

29:15

challenging market for me to get

29:15

a job. And so, I wrote, and I'm

29:20

going to say an apathetic

29:20

covering letter and CV to GE

29:26

Capital, who were recruiting at

29:26

the time, they were recruiting

29:29

on one of the European

29:29

management leadership

29:32

programmes. And one of the

29:32

things was, I've done a business

29:36

degree, I speak another

29:36

language. And I think my

29:38

covering letter was something

29:38

like, hey, I'm living in France,

29:41

attached is my CV, I speak

29:41

French. And I got the job,

29:47

obviously, and that then

29:47

propelled me into this, because

29:52

GE being an American company,

29:52

propelled me into this

29:57

wonderfully rich learning

29:57

environment. It was an

30:00

environment where they took what

30:00

they saw as talent, and they

30:04

were trainers, they would teach

30:04

us leadership skills, teach us

30:08

different technical abilities in

30:08

terms of how to do a balance

30:11

sheet, how to look at that, how

30:11

to start to reflect on the way

30:14

business is done. And what I

30:14

found was, I found myself once

30:18

again in an environment where

30:18

talent is developed. And

30:23

suddenly, I was moved around

30:23

every six months, around the

30:27

world to a different rotation,

30:27

to a different job, to a

30:30

different competency, where I

30:30

could see a different way of

30:33

living, a different way of doing

30:33

business. And it was wonderful.

30:38

I am forever grateful for my GE

30:38

experience, because it taught me

30:43

so much about how to code

30:43

leadership, and what that looks

30:49

like. And that's something that

30:49

really, really stuck with me.

30:53

And it was a fascinating time of

30:53

life.

30:56

Really

30:56

interesting. I just feel people

30:58

are going to listen to this and

30:58

think, 'He fell into football,

31:01

and now he's falling into this

31:01

leadership management programme

31:05

with this apathetic covering

31:05

letter saying, oh, yeah, I speak

31:08

a little bit of French, and

31:08

suddenly, he's on this amazing

31:13

training programme.'

31:17

They could think

31:17

that. I think, for me, there was

31:21

a lot of luck, right? There's a

31:21

lot of luck. Why did I go to the

31:24

south of France? I went to the

31:24

south of France because I

31:27

realised, because of the

31:27

university I went to, I wasn't

31:30

going to get the job at the big

31:30

consulting firm or marketing

31:35

company or anything like that,

31:35

because I need to be at the

31:38

right uni. So, I was like, 'Sod

31:38

it, I'll go to France.' And what

31:42

GE wanted was someone who's

31:42

spoken the language. And I was

31:45

like, well, you know, I'm living

31:45

in France, I'm fluent. What more

31:48

do you want? Oh, that is what

31:48

you want. Oh, right. Okay. Well,

31:51

that was good. So, I'm glad I

31:51

went and lived in France for a

31:56

year, lived on a campsite, it's

31:56

awesome. We had a great time.

31:59

There's that expression of it, it's something like luck is where preparedness

32:01

meets opportunity or something

32:03

like that. So, I wonder if

32:03

there's something in there.

32:05

You'd put yourself into a place

32:05

where actually this came around,

32:10

and it was what they were

32:10

looking for, even if you hadn't

32:13

realised that at the time.

32:15

Yeah, I just

32:15

lost you right at the end there.

32:19

So, if luck is

32:19

where preparedness meets

32:22

opportunity, you'd kind of set

32:22

yourself up by putting yourself

32:25

in an environment where, even if

32:25

you didn't know it, you were

32:28

actually setting yourself up for

32:28

this opportunity where you were

32:31

what they were looking for.

32:33

Yes, absolutely.

32:33

I fully agree with that. And for

32:36

me, I think there was so much

32:36

about following that thread of

32:43

enjoyment, or that intersection

32:43

where what you enjoy doing is

32:48

valued. And I enjoyed being in

32:48

France, I enjoyed playing for a

32:53

local football team, I enjoyed

32:53

speaking French, that was valued

32:57

by any English holidaymaker who

32:57

travelled through France or

33:01

Europe at that time. And it

33:01

really worked. And so, it goes

33:05

the same, I think, when I was in

33:05

GE, that my hand was up, if they

33:10

said, 'Hey, who's ready to go

33:10

work in France', and that's how

33:15

I initially came over to

33:15

Australia, was an opportunity to

33:19

come and work over here. And

33:19

indeed, the gentleman who hired

33:22

me happened to be on a tour

33:22

through England at the time.

33:27

This is maybe four or five years

33:27

into my GE career, where I was

33:31

indoctrinated with Lean Six

33:31

Sigma and process improvement

33:35

and that leadership ethos. And

33:35

he's a football fan. So, my

33:43

interview was, he was on his way

33:43

to Anfield, and I said, 'Ah,

33:47

yeah, I remember playing at

33:47

Anfield, it was brilliant, I got

33:50

to touch the sign as I went out,

33:50

and this was it.' And so, I got

33:55

the job. Now, I know I didn't

33:55

get the job just because it was

33:58

a former professional

33:58

footballer. But there was an

34:02

engagement, we've got on the

34:02

same level, were able to talk

34:06

about it, which, as I recognise

34:06

now, it meant I was memorable.

34:12

It meant, yeah, I spoke to five

34:12

people about the job, oh, the

34:15

footballer, I remember him. And

34:15

everybody remembers the

34:18

footballer, whether it's good or

34:18

bad. In that instance, it was

34:23

good. So, ultimately, I then was

34:23

able to move from England,

34:32

specifically from London at that

34:32

time, over to Sydney. And that's

34:36

what began my career over here.

34:36

And that was because they just

34:40

bought a business, and I was

34:40

brought in to be the cross

34:43

sales, to help with that

34:43

integration, that merger, that

34:45

integration that took place,

34:45

which worked right the way up to

34:50

the GFC kicking in and GE

34:50

turning around and saying, 'If

34:55

there's a global financial

34:55

crisis, we don't want to be in

34:58

it. Let's sell, let's begin

34:58

selling our mortgage and finance

35:04

businesses.' And so, my and I

35:04

and our eight-month baby were

35:10

made redundant, our visa became

35:10

null and void, and we were

35:14

essentially being shipped back

35:14

to England, which was not the

35:20

original plan.

35:21

How did that resolve itself?

35:23

Well, it

35:23

resolved itself by actually a

35:26

rugby player who said to me,

35:26

'Ah, someone's looking for a

35:31

young chap to go to HSBC, based

35:31

out of Hong Kong.' He didn't

35:36

want to go, because he was known

35:36

as a Wallaby, as an Australian

35:41

rugby international, he was

35:41

like, 'There's nothing for me in

35:44

Hong Kong. It's all here. Why

35:44

don't you chat to them?' So,

35:47

having never been to HSBC,

35:47

having never been to Hong Kong

35:52

before, my wife and son, we

35:52

figured, you know what, let's

35:56

just take the risk, how bad is

35:56

it going to be? And it's just so

36:00

happened, the hiring manager was

36:00

a former GE employee. And so,

36:06

when I spoke with him, he

36:06

latterly said, once I was

36:12

employed, he said, 'We

36:12

interviewed so many people, but

36:15

you came from GE, I was from GE,

36:15

I knew you would know exactly,

36:19

you would work hard, because

36:19

that's the work ethos that you

36:21

have in GE, I knew you'd think

36:21

of it in a process way, in this

36:24

way, I knew you'd do that.' And

36:24

so, it was it was a done deal.

36:29

We had to go through the

36:29

interviews, but it was a done

36:32

deal. That began a 10-year or

36:32

nine-year Hong Kong love affair,

36:38

where, again, at HSBC, I landed

36:38

at the right time. I joined the

36:45

Asia team just at the time when

36:45

globally HSBC was shaking, and

36:52

was thinking where on earth do

36:52

we do mortgages around the

36:56

world, why do we have mortgage

36:56

businesses, what are we doing

36:59

with that? And they came across

36:59

to Asia, I did a presentation,

37:05

and my future boss was at the

37:05

presentation, and he thought,

37:08

'You delivered it really well, I

37:08

thought you'd do great if I just

37:11

threw you into Mexico and had to

37:11

talk to them about mortgages and

37:16

why HSBC is a good thing. So, I

37:16

came to you and asked you if you

37:20

wanted the job.' And I was like,

37:20

'Sure, how bad could that be,

37:23

travelling around the world?'

37:25

I really like this

37:25

how-bad-could-that-be attitude.

37:29

I think that people do have a

37:29

tendency to immediately think of

37:34

what can go wrong, and they

37:34

think of what's the worst that

37:37

can go wrong. And then, they

37:37

convince themselves that it's

37:40

going to happen. Rather than

37:40

thinking, okay, well, what's the

37:44

worst that can happen

37:44

realistically? And what would I

37:46

do with it? And they don't also

37:46

think about the counter to that.

37:50

Well, okay, yeah, but if this

37:50

all goes right, what could that

37:53

look like?

37:55

Yes, I agree

37:55

with you. I think that is often

37:58

the case, whilst it's not like

37:58

we can, I think what I've

38:03

learned is, for many people, we

38:03

can see the downside, we look at

38:07

that negative, yet we don't

38:07

allow ourselves the ability to

38:12

mitigate that negativity, and to

38:12

say, 'Okay, well, that's the

38:15

worst that can happen. Geez, no,

38:15

I can't do it.' And then, it's

38:18

like, well, actually, if this

38:18

happened, or I did that, would

38:22

that result in a better outcome?

38:22

If I put in these actions, or I

38:25

spoke to this person, either I

38:25

go through that really quickly,

38:30

or I really do just love the

38:30

positive. I'm often looking at

38:35

myself as an optimist nowadays

38:35

and think, yeah, I do see the

38:40

beauty and opportunity in people

38:40

and just think, 'Oh, wow, that

38:44

would be great.'

38:46

So, as we sit here

38:46

talking now, what does

38:49

professional life look like for

38:49

you?

38:52

So, today, I've

38:52

recently transitioned out of

38:58

banking, and that is borne by me

38:58

recognising that I had another

39:04

purpose. And that other purpose

39:04

was to help other athletes to

39:08

transition, to transition with

39:08

better outcomes is the way I

39:13

look at it. And that really came

39:13

about because 10 or so years ago

39:17

was my cohort, who had gone

39:17

through the full gambit of

39:21

professional football, were

39:21

retiring. They were coming to

39:26

me, they were asking me

39:26

questions, 'Hey, you've been out

39:28

of the game. How do I get a job?

39:28

How do I do this? What does that

39:31

look like?' And whilst it began

39:31

with me just chatting to them

39:35

and talking, just listening to

39:35

what they were saying, I started

39:40

to realise more recently that

39:40

maybe the passion or the impact

39:44

that I can have isn't in

39:44

banking, isn't in financial

39:47

services and supporting them in

39:47

that way, but it's coaching

39:50

individuals how to live their

39:50

life better. And with that, my

39:55

passion, my tribe, where do I

39:55

feel most comfortable is

39:59

speaking with those with that

39:59

athletic background, athletic

40:02

experience, or indeed athletic

40:02

mindset, and helping them to

40:07

transition better into careers

40:07

after sport.

40:11

And you talked about your own transition? Is this now a full transition? Is

40:13

the coaching now basically what

40:16

you do full time?

40:18

Yes, it is. So,

40:18

I'm now a full-time coach,

40:22

full-time career coach. So, I

40:22

did additional training, I seem

40:26

to be addicted to academia, it

40:26

seems. But I did, again, more

40:30

courses but really very focused

40:30

on career and lifestyle

40:36

transition. I find doing that

40:36

full time for me has really

40:41

opened up my thinking, opened up

40:41

where I place my energy in

40:47

supporting individuals or

40:47

supporting athletes as they move

40:50

forward.

40:51

Just thinking back

40:51

to that person who went over to

40:54

the States and saw effectively

40:54

what money could buy, where's

40:59

that person now in relation to

40:59

your own journey?

41:02

Well, I think

41:02

the person is still me, it's

41:06

still there. What I recognised

41:06

that I was seeing in the US was

41:11

families. I coached a lot of

41:11

travel kids. The way it was

41:16

structured was, we stayed with

41:16

families. So, whilst I was in

41:21

Chicago or doing Chicago Fire

41:21

type camps, I would stay with a

41:26

host family. And what I

41:26

recognised that I saw was that

41:31

family, together in a nice

41:31

house, chatting and sitting

41:34

around the table, driving nice

41:34

cars and moving around together,

41:37

and the parents being able to

41:37

put a lot into their children.

41:41

Whilst my mom is absolutely

41:41

awesome and raised my brother

41:45

and I wonderfully well, she had

41:45

to do a lot of work, so couldn't

41:51

sit with us as often as she

41:51

wanted to. And so, for me, the

41:55

way I translate that dream,

41:55

actually, it wasn't the car, it

41:59

wasn't the house, it was that

41:59

there were people in the house

42:02

together, there were people

42:02

being driven around in that car

42:05

together. And so, that person is

42:05

still me, and that's what I love

42:09

doing with my wife, the one who

42:09

moved to France with me 20 plus

42:14

years ago. And we've now got our

42:14

three boys. And so, I'm lucky

42:21

enough that through my job now,

42:21

off to running 2ndwind, I'm able

42:26

to afford that flexibility to

42:26

spend that time and to force my

42:30

teenage children to sit around

42:30

the table and talk to me.

42:33

And 2ndwind has

42:33

been going, roughly how long

42:36

have you had that business?

42:38

So, as an

42:38

entity, 2ndwind academy has been

42:41

up and running for two years. It

42:41

began as a side hustle, or it

42:46

began as a coffee conversation.

42:46

It then became more coffees, it

42:50

then became whilst I was working

42:50

in banking, or New South Wales

42:54

Treasury and the Treasury team,

42:54

after that became a one day a

42:59

week, and I reduced at part-time

42:59

hours in the corporate world.

43:03

And then, earlier this year, I

43:03

was able to jump full time.

43:10

And what are your

43:10

ambitions for the business?

43:12

At the moment,

43:12

I'm helping individuals in

43:15

generally small groups, small

43:15

groups of athletes come

43:19

together. I also work at the

43:19

club level with some of the top

43:24

rugby here, some of the top

43:24

rugby and football clubs. Really

43:29

where I want to go or would like

43:29

the business to do is have a

43:33

broader impact. So, rather than

43:33

helping one to six, how can I

43:38

help more people, more athletes,

43:38

because athletes continue to

43:41

retire, and it's how can I help

43:41

more of those in an efficient

43:47

way, so they can simply be

43:47

inspired, and inspired, guide

43:51

and connect, they're really the

43:51

words that I look through for

43:54

individuals that I'm working

43:54

with, be inspired to go out

43:57

there and find that second wind,

43:57

be inspired to go out and find

44:02

something else that they're just

44:02

as passionate about, and want to

44:06

put their energy into doing, and

44:06

importantly recognise that's not

44:10

just a job, but it is that

44:10

holistic perspective of career,

44:14

which includes the way you live

44:14

your life as well.

44:18

And it's interesting what you said there, athletes will continue to

44:19

retire. There's a lot of talk at

44:22

the moment about the way that

44:22

things like AI are going to

44:26

impact jobs, careers, the world

44:26

generally, but I feel like sport

44:32

is always going to be there,

44:32

because there's this visceral

44:34

connection, people want to see

44:34

people doing the faster, higher,

44:38

stronger. Yeah, AI may affect

44:38

trading methods, it may affect

44:44

the technology, but ultimately,

44:44

it's going to be this watching

44:48

people doing this. And so, yeah,

44:48

it just feels like it's going to

44:53

stick around.

44:55

I think COVID

44:55

gives a good example as to what

44:58

life is like without any sport.

44:58

And as people around the world,

45:03

we struggled without that, many

45:03

people struggled without that

45:06

entertainment. And whether you

45:06

love the sport or not, people

45:09

around you love the sport, and

45:09

you knew it was better for them

45:12

to be able to go and watch it

45:12

and see it. And so, I agree, and

45:17

I look a lot at the future of

45:17

work and what those future

45:20

capabilities are, and I think

45:20

for athletes, they find

45:24

themselves in a good place that

45:24

they can entertain, they can

45:28

motivate and inspire the general

45:28

public and population. And then,

45:32

after that, they are every day

45:32

developing those future skills,

45:38

future capabilities that will be

45:38

relevant in that workplace of

45:42

the future.

45:43

As you look back

45:43

on your career today, what are

45:46

perhaps the two or three top

45:46

lessons that you think you've

45:51

learned?

45:52

You see, normally, I answer that in a way, but the way this

45:54

conversation has gone, it makes

45:56

me think I should answer it, I

45:56

probably discussed things now

45:59

that I don't often, or at least,

45:59

I don't think about them in that

46:02

way. And so, it makes it

46:02

interesting. However, I should

46:07

answer, rather than just stand

46:07

here and think. But one of the

46:15

biggest things I learned was how

46:15

to communicate. I recognise, I

46:22

frequently found myself as

46:22

captain on the football team.

46:26

And as I've moved off the field,

46:26

I found at home in GE, in all

46:32

these other places, found myself

46:32

in senior leadership positions.

46:35

And one of the bits that I've

46:35

recognised is how to communicate

46:39

effectively to motivate

46:39

individuals, from the shout,

46:44

from the pat on the shoulder, to

46:44

going in and really

46:47

understanding the intrinsic need

46:47

of that individual. And so, for

46:52

me, that communication and

46:52

engagement is something that

46:56

I've really learned through

46:56

sport, and recognise that's been

47:00

a common thread from when I was

47:00

13, right through to where I am

47:05

today and beyond. So, that

47:05

communication is probably the

47:10

biggest of the lessons that I've

47:10

learned.

47:14

And in terms of

47:14

resources which have helped you,

47:19

books, podcasts, quotes,

47:19

anything like that, any that

47:22

you'd love to give a special

47:22

shout out to.

47:25

Yeah, yeah,

47:25

there is, actually. One of the

47:29

biggest challenges that I've

47:29

faced, that athletes face when

47:32

we leave sport is feedback. We

47:32

just don't get it anymore. I

47:39

used to get feedback, when I did

47:39

a wrong pass, my manager would

47:42

shout at me, or at least the

47:42

fans would tell me straight away

47:46

that the pass was bad. And

47:46

that's brutal and honest. Right?

47:51

Everything you do, you're told.

47:51

At the end of every day, you get

47:55

that feedback. So, Douglas Stone

47:55

and Sheila Heen, their book

48:02

Thanks for the Feedback for me

48:02

has been absolutely amazing. And

48:08

it must be a decade old or so,

48:08

but Thanks for the Feedback is

48:13

without a doubt one of the most

48:13

important books that I've read.

48:18

Because it just helped me to

48:18

shape direct feedback quite

48:24

well, but also how to ask for

48:24

it. I often describe myself as a

48:29

needy employee, in that I'll do

48:29

a presentation, the presentation

48:33

went well, yeah, it went really

48:33

well. They sold it, it was

48:36

great, they're buying it, great.

48:36

Well, how do we do it better?

48:39

No, no, they bought it. We're

48:39

done. Yeah, but we're going to

48:42

do it again, and how do we keep

48:42

improving and get to that next

48:45

level? So, yeah, Thanks for the

48:45

Feedback is probably a good

48:50

resource that I'd go with.

48:52

Brilliant. I will check that out. Because one of the things about podcasting, as

48:54

you will know, is, unless

48:57

someone leaves a review, it's

48:57

really hard to get feedback,

49:00

because you have absolutely no

49:00

idea who is listening to you,

49:04

where they are, why they're

49:04

listening to you, really how

49:06

much they're listening. So,

49:06

yeah, getting any kind of

49:09

feedback is really challenging.

49:11

Yes, yes, it is.

49:11

It is. Like you said, as long as

49:15

we enjoy our conversation, then

49:15

we're in a good spot.

49:20

Ryan, this has been an absolutely fascinating conversation. I've loved

49:22

discussing your story. Where

49:24

would you like people to go if

49:24

they want to find you?

49:27

One of the best

49:27

places to find me is going to be

49:30

on LinkedIn. So, as I am at that

49:30

intersection of leaving sport

49:35

into the professional world,

49:35

LinkedIn, find me as Ryan

49:39

Gonsalves, or look for

49:39

2ndwind.io on there as well.

49:44

You'll find it on LinkedIn.

49:45

Brilliant, as always, links in the show notes to this episode. Ryan, thank you

49:47

so much for coming on and

49:51

sharing your story, and best of

49:51

luck with 2ndwind in the future.

49:55

Thanks very much. Thanks for having me.

49:58

Okay, hope you

49:58

enjoyed the interview with Ryan

50:00

Gonsalves. Ryan's was a

50:00

fascinating story, and the thing

50:05

that I took away most was, when

50:05

faced with these big decisions

50:09

about where he was going to live

50:09

and what he was going to do, he

50:12

asked himself the question, 'How

50:12

bad is it going to be?' And I

50:16

just love that attitude. Because

50:16

you can get so tied up with fear

50:21

about, well, what happens if

50:21

this just doesn't turn out? And

50:25

then, if you examine it, and you

50:25

ask yourself, well, just how bad

50:28

can it be, you discover that,

50:28

well, you know what, if things

50:32

don't turn out, well, it's fine.

50:32

You'll figure it out. You'll

50:35

move on to something else. And

50:35

what people also forget is the

50:39

flip side of that, never mind

50:39

how bad is it going to be, how

50:43

good could it be. What happens

50:43

if this does work out? What

50:47

could that look like? How

50:47

exciting could that be? It's

50:51

definitely worth considering

50:51

both sides of the equation, and

50:54

not just fixating on what could

50:54

happen if things go badly wrong.

50:59

There's a term, asymmetric risk,

50:59

which is where the downside and

51:04

the upside don't really equal

51:04

each other, and the downside

51:07

might be a bit of a downside,

51:07

but the upside could be huge.

51:12

And so, taking the risk in order

51:12

to get the possibility of that

51:16

upside really makes it

51:16

worthwhile. So, I definitely

51:19

encourage you to look at both

51:19

aspects when you've got any big

51:22

decision in front of you. If you

51:22

head to changeworklife.com/173,

51:26

that's changeworklife.com/173,

51:26

then you'll find the show notes

51:31

with a full transcript, summary

51:31

of what we talked about, and

51:34

links mentioned in the

51:34

interview. And what would be

51:37

really helpful for me would be

51:37

if you'd leave a review for this

51:40

podcast, preferably on Apple

51:40

podcasts, but if that's not

51:43

something you use, then wherever

51:43

you get your podcasts from.

51:47

Reviews really helped people to

51:47

find the show and to tell them

51:51

that it's something worth

51:51

listening to. So, if you haven't

51:54

already, please, please, please

51:54

just take a couple of minutes to

51:57

leave a written review. Five

51:57

stars is always welcome, but if

52:01

you think that the podcast

52:01

doesn't deserve five stars,

52:03

well, get in touch with me.

52:03

There's a contact form on the

52:05

website, get in touch and tell

52:05

me why not. In two weeks' time,

52:09

we're going to be talking about

52:09

relationships. Relationships at

52:13

work, why they matter, and what

52:13

you can do to improve yours.

52:18

It's a really interesting

52:18

interview about what's actually

52:21

a really important topic. So, if

52:21

you don't want to miss that

52:24

interview, make sure that you've

52:24

subscribed to the show, and I

52:27

can't wait to see you then.

52:27

Cheers. Bye.