0:05

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

0:08

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and

0:10

this is a podcast series where academics

0:12

and others share their stories, provide

0:14

ideas, and provoke discussions

0:17

about what we can do individually

0:19

and collectively to change academic

0:22

life for the better. This

0:30

is a really special conversation with the

0:32

amazing Susanne Bødker. Susanne

0:35

is a professor of human computer interaction

0:37

at Aarhus university in Denmark.

0:40

I was really glad to be able to get some face-to-face

0:42

time with her. When she recently visited Vienna.

0:45

To give an invited lecture for the Austrian

0:47

academy of sciences. On the 21st

0:49

of September 23. And

0:52

I wanted to release this conversation

0:54

now. To mark

0:57

her transition to post university life

0:59

at the end of September. In

1:01

this conversation, she reflects on

1:04

her 40 years at Aarhus touching

1:06

on a range of issues, including her own

1:09

career path and choices. The

1:11

value of mobility changes

1:13

she's seen over time. Hiring practices,

1:16

creating collegial culture, being

1:18

active in university politics, transitioning

1:21

to retirement, being a single parent.

1:24

Among many other issues. What

1:27

I think though, that you'll hear across

1:30

all of these. is a really

1:32

strongly held and enacted

1:34

set of values. Around

1:37

participation. Around

1:39

giving voice to people. And

1:42

around holding human connections

1:44

as important. And that's

1:46

whether she's talking about work

1:48

colleagues or family or friends,

1:53

And Susanne is one of the most respected

1:55

and impactful human computer interaction

1:58

researchers. Yet.

2:00

You'll also hear her humility.

2:03

I think that's pretty special. So

2:06

thank you, Susanne for a career well-served.

2:09

And that will hopefully continue in some ways,

2:12

as you explore your new opportunities

2:14

in this new phase. And

2:17

to you, the listener enjoy this conversation.

2:21

Susanne, thank you very much for joining

2:23

me. And do you want to just introduce yourself?

2:26

I can do that. I am Susanne Bødker.

2:28

I worked in the computer

2:31

science department at Aarhus University

2:33

for 40 years. And,

2:36

um, I'm doing research

2:39

in human computer interaction. And

2:41

I think... I basically done

2:43

that since before there was anything

2:45

much called human computer interaction.

2:48

So in that sense I've been part of that

2:50

journey over the years and

2:53

that's what I've done. I've been teaching, I've

2:55

been doing research and

2:58

also As it

3:00

happens, quite a lot of sort of university

3:03

politics and stuff

3:05

like that. I guess I tend to involve

3:07

myself in things when I get the chance.

3:12

which fits in a way with your participatory

3:15

theme that really runs as a red thread

3:17

through all of your research.

3:19

Yes, indeed. So I think

3:22

it's, it is in a way a two way thing,

3:25

right? If you want other people to

3:27

engage. then you probably

3:31

should or, yeah, should

3:33

also engage in the world around

3:35

you, basically.

3:37

Yeah. Did you do your

3:39

undergraduate degree at Aarhus as well?

3:41

I did. Yes. Yeah, I,

3:44

so I studied at Aarhus

3:46

University, uh, from 1975,

3:50

actually, to, uh, 81, 82.

3:56

And then I was away,

4:00

for a good year. And then, so then

4:02

I've been working there since 1983

4:05

in various capacities. Uh,

4:07

I mean, it was in the days when

4:09

you actually also had a job

4:12

when you were doing your PhD, of course,

4:14

which is a lot different,

4:16

I think, from most places and also

4:18

from the way it is in Aarhus now.

4:21

Yeah, so I've been teaching and

4:24

doing those kind of things all

4:26

the time, basically.

4:29

So was it computer science then?

4:31

Yes. So it wasn't just

4:33

[mathematics]? It was,

4:35

uh, I formally

4:37

have a degree in mathematics because the,

4:40

uh, computer science degree

4:42

was only a specialization of mathematics

4:45

back in the days. And I think

4:47

I, I honestly started, uh,

4:51

started studying because I thought I wanted

4:53

to do high school mathematics. And then I found

4:55

out really soon after that,

4:58

that, you know, actually I wasn't very good at mathematics.

5:01

And, and, uh, so,

5:04

so the other thing was then the choices

5:06

you would have for sort of secondary topics

5:08

in those days was physics and statistics

5:11

and, and computer science. And

5:14

so I ended up doing this thing that could

5:16

be statistics or computer science just

5:18

because I didn't want to do physics, basically. [That's

5:22

interesting]. Yeah. So, so I realized

5:24

that, that, you know, it

5:26

was an interesting field. It was an upcoming

5:29

field. It was also, because

5:32

it was so new, it was kind of,

5:34

a good place to be. The, you know, a

5:36

lot of, uh. social

5:39

activities also with the teachers

5:41

and the students and so

5:44

on. So in that sense, I

5:47

decided that mathematics was not my

5:49

thing, but the,

5:52

how can you say, because of the construction

5:54

of what you could and couldn't

5:57

do, I mean, I'd

5:59

almost finished my minor in

6:01

mathematics before I realized. So I carried

6:04

on with that, even though I... I was

6:06

considering some other

6:08

topics. Actually, I was

6:10

thinking maybe archaeology at

6:13

the time, but, but I never

6:15

got to it because then, you know, I

6:18

spent the credits needed to be

6:20

a mathematician or at least a minor

6:23

in mathematics and that was, that was basically

6:26

it. Yeah.

6:28

So you must have been really radical

6:30

then to be doing

6:32

from the very beginning all of the.... perspectives

6:35

that you've taken in your research around

6:37

the focus on people

6:39

and the interface and drawing

6:42

on things like activity theory

6:44

from Russian psychology traditions

6:47

and that must was

6:49

that very different or within

6:51

the Danish tradition was it not so

6:53

different because I'm just thinking back

6:55

to that sort of day in computer science when it

6:57

was much more Mathematical

7:00

and

7:00

[engineering focused]. It was, but

7:02

I would say we did in Aarhus at

7:05

the time have people

7:08

who did those kind of things. And, so

7:11

Morten Kyng for instance. But also

7:13

Christian Nygaard who was

7:16

visiting on and off coming down

7:18

from Oslo and Working

7:21

with these, uh, different kinds of

7:23

projects, both with the labor unions,

7:25

but also just thinking

7:27

differently about what programming

7:29

would be, how you would involve people

7:32

in, in some of those things. And,

7:34

and I think, so

7:36

I don't think it was like, it

7:40

didn't feel very radical in that,

7:42

in that sense. I think I, I got

7:44

into this whole business of activity

7:46

theory, basically because...

7:49

We were, we

7:52

were doing a study group with a psychologists

7:56

at AU around an

7:58

early version of the Winograd and Flores

8:01

book. So this must have been 1983

8:06

ish or something. So at

8:08

that time Psychology in Aarhus

8:10

had a very big group of theoretical

8:12

thinkers who were inspired by by

8:15

activity theory. And I

8:17

mean, some of them are still active

8:20

and still working in that field. So

8:22

I I don't know. I'm not sure. I

8:25

mean, again, of

8:27

course, I spent quite a lot of time understanding

8:30

it and working with it in my PhD.

8:34

But I didn't. I mean,

8:36

it wasn't like looking

8:38

it up somewhere. It came kind of natural

8:41

out of this discussions

8:44

we had about the Winograd and Flores

8:46

and, and the Dreyfus and

8:48

Dreyfus book later on. [You could]

8:50

make the connections and see how

8:51

[it was applicable]. Yeah, and I still

8:53

remember there was a master thesis student

8:56

in psychology who had done

8:58

some of this taking activity

9:00

into account. And. He was talking

9:02

about it. It's not an interface. It's

9:04

an interspace. I remember

9:07

that he said. And I think, you know, things

9:10

like that. He didn't

9:12

take it very far in the first place at all.

9:14

He also took a very long time to finish

9:17

his master's thesis. But it

9:19

was those kind of things that kind

9:21

of made me think that it could be possible

9:24

to find other theoretical

9:26

foundations than the GOMS model

9:28

and stuff like that.

9:29

Yeah. Isn't it fascinating

9:32

how, I don't know, like

9:34

the opportunities that we

9:37

have or the ways our thinking is shaped,

9:40

the ways our opportunities are shaped

9:43

just by things like Morton

9:45

Kyng being there, having

9:47

psychologists there that you had access to who

9:50

opened up this particular way of thinking. [Yeah].

9:52

No, I think that it's true. I mean, there's

9:54

a lot of sort of circumstances in this.

9:57

[There is, isn't there]? So,

9:59

so in a sense, it's not, I mean, of

10:02

course I, I mean, I did it,

10:04

it's not like that, right? But, but I don't

10:07

sort of think of it as something that was

10:11

very out of the ordinary or

10:13

very extreme in any sort of way.

10:16

I think I did other things PhD

10:18

that maybe was a little bit

10:20

like... Extraordinary.

10:23

So I decided to write a book, right?

10:25

I decided that this

10:27

couldn't be sort

10:30

of done as a series of papers, of

10:33

articles, basically

10:35

because it would take

10:37

too much effort. To

10:39

to sort of establish the framework

10:42

for each of the papers.

10:44

I mean, not that I didn't write papers

10:47

during my PhD, but but I think that

10:49

was pretty much the reason why

10:52

I thought a monography

10:54

was kind of the thing to do,

10:56

even though that was a bit extraordinary. I

10:59

think it was also not easy,

11:01

and, and it took a lot more effort than

11:03

I would recommend any

11:05

of my PhD students to do today,

11:07

but I think there are also many other

11:09

ways in which the situation was different

11:12

in those days, right? So there

11:14

wasn't quite the time pressure, at least

11:16

that we have on the PhD students

11:18

and all of us nowadays.

11:20

Yeah. But what you said about

11:22

the reason why you chose the monograph

11:24

as the model. [Yeah]. Is what I think

11:26

makes it really good for a PhD

11:29

thesis because, I don't

11:31

know, I clearly am biased against

11:33

cumulative theses because I

11:35

think that they miss the

11:37

opportunity to do that deeper thinking

11:39

and reflection and sort of really laying out

11:41

that positioning and the theoretical grounding

11:44

of the work or really drawing out the

11:46

implications or the threads

11:48

across lots of work that

11:50

might be distributed

11:51

[across papers]. Yeah, no, I agree.

11:54

I think it definitely has merits,

11:56

right? So I don't have regrets that

11:58

I did it, but I think I had this. I

12:01

mean, of course, it also ended up

12:03

being a book that got published and

12:05

so on, which wasn't the intent in the first

12:07

place, but, and it took a lot of

12:09

work to, to finish that. And

12:11

I think I promised myself I would never

12:13

do a book again. [And how many have

12:15

you done since]? Not that

12:18

many, but I have done other books. [And

12:20

then you go, what was I thinking]?

12:22

[Yeah, yeah, yeah]. And that's, but

12:24

it has been a very influential book. [Yes,

12:26

oh yeah]. Like really,

12:28

[really influential]. And I still meet people

12:30

who read it, right? [Yeah]. Yeah, so

12:32

that, that's, that's obviously quite nice.

12:34

[That must be rewarding]. Yeah, yeah, I think

12:37

it is, I think it is. Yeah. I

12:39

mean a lot of what we do

12:41

is also still building

12:44

on that foundation, right? And,

12:46

and so. In

12:48

that sense, it was also, I mean,

12:51

I found myself as, as, uh,

12:54

well, you know, and we talked about. So

12:57

I had for the past five years this

12:59

ERC grant about common interactive

13:01

objects. And I mean, I found myself

13:04

when I was writing that

13:06

proposal, basically going

13:08

back to a lot of these things and thinking, well,

13:10

you know, it wasn't. It's really

13:13

bad what we suggested, sort of, way

13:15

back when. So actually writing

13:17

the proposal and doing it, you

13:21

know, sometimes it's felt as if

13:23

there's not so much

13:25

new in it, but I think it, there is. I mean,

13:28

I obviously think we moved it to places

13:30

that it wasn't before and there's

13:33

much more coherence and so on. But I think

13:35

many of the ideas were actually...

13:39

Like having a long trail back,

13:41

back from my thesis work and,

13:44

and to some of the work after and so on.

13:46

So I find that quite interesting.

13:49

Yeah, yeah. So

13:52

only in the writing of the proposal

13:54

that you actually reflected on the fact that it was

13:57

the same or had you always been more conscious

13:59

of that being the grounding

14:01

work from your thesis that was a strong red

14:04

thread.

14:05

No, I don't think I realized like

14:07

all the time and thought about that This

14:10

was it was obviously was

14:12

not like an agenda that I

14:14

pushed that I would stay with it or anything

14:16

like that It was more that you know,

14:18

when you started thinking about various

14:20

elements of what you wanted to be there You

14:22

realize that you know, hey, I've

14:25

written about some of this in

14:27

the past In the

14:29

thesis or after, you know, after

14:32

the thesis in various forms. So I think

14:34

that it's just interesting. [It

14:36

is really]

14:36

interesting. It's a lovely book ending. [Yeah]

14:39

of the career, which we'll come to in a

14:41

tick. [Yeah]. I'm curious about

14:43

the 40 years at Aarhus and

14:46

How that came about, you know How

14:49

you reflect back on staying in the one place?

14:51

[Yeah], what values or? What

14:53

trade offs did you make to

14:56

choose that?

14:57

Yeah in a way,

15:01

you know, I think it's a really good question

15:03

and quite obviously I have considered

15:06

moving, I mean, several times

15:09

along the way. I think a

15:12

lot of the reason why

15:15

I ended up staying was

15:18

in a way more

15:20

personal issues, right? I'm not saying

15:22

I wouldn't have been happy elsewhere and so on,

15:24

but there were various hiccups

15:28

along the way and at the end,

15:31

I, I mean, I, I, I

15:34

like it where I am and I kind

15:36

of like, uh,

15:39

the way, you know, my social life

15:41

and all of those things and, you know,

15:44

I, I've got, I got offered

15:47

various jobs along the way.

15:49

I, I don't know. I, I think you

15:52

always have all these concerns, right?

15:54

I remember thinking about moving to

15:57

the UK with a teenage son

15:59

who first thought that, that, well, you know,

16:01

he could become a Manchester United

16:03

fan. But, but,

16:06

you know, at the end, it wasn't the thing.

16:08

And, and I also. I do remember

16:10

thinking earlier about

16:13

commuting to a different university

16:16

in Denmark, or moving,

16:18

which I didn't really want to do at

16:20

the time, and um,

16:24

yeah, so, it's not, again

16:27

I don't see, I mean

16:30

that, that hasn't been like a

16:32

big plan for me that I would stay

16:34

and know who's on at this time. I

16:36

don't think it's something that I've thought about

16:39

a lot, like the past, maybe

16:42

20 years, but obviously

16:44

along the way it has been a

16:47

thing. And I mean, I did, I've

16:50

always enjoyed doing these sort

16:53

of shorter sabbaticals, or

16:55

stays abroad, and so I've been

16:58

to various places. I mean, I also was away

17:00

for a year after my...

17:02

Master's thesis graduation before I started

17:05

working in university. So I did spend

17:07

quite a lot of time in California

17:10

at Xerox PARC

17:13

and But I thought [that would

17:15

have]

17:15

been good days at Xerox Parc

17:16

It was. I'm not sure I Understood

17:18

how good days it was, you know, I mean

17:20

I kind of think afterwards of course it was

17:23

you know, the chance of a lifetime and then I

17:25

enjoyed it there, but I think I'm

17:28

not sure, you know, you don't quite know what you're getting

17:30

yourself into. [Yeah] But

17:33

I, I mean, I've spent time also in Stockholm

17:35

and in Paris. So,

17:38

so I've always enjoyed, like,

17:40

going places and spending a

17:43

bit more time than just a

17:45

short visit um, and

17:48

I think that that has also kept me

17:50

going that, that, you know, I had

17:52

the chance of doing those things along the way.

17:54

[Yeah]. So you still had the opportunity to,

17:57

to network, build those relationships and travel.

17:59

[Yeah]. But it sounds like

18:01

also that family

18:04

and community

18:07

were also important priorities and

18:10

staying has enabled them

18:12

to take precedence in

18:14

[some way]. Yeah, yeah. There's no

18:17

doubt that this, that's true. And

18:19

I made choices

18:21

based on that. I mean, Aarhus

18:24

University has also been, a good, good

18:27

employer for me in various ways,

18:29

right? I did have a career. They

18:32

did offer me, also career

18:34

moves. Not, I mean, Probably

18:38

nobody has, like,

18:40

just gotten, like, to be

18:42

a full professor, exactly

18:45

at the moment when they think they're ready

18:47

for it and, and so on. But I think, you

18:49

know, with a bit of, uh, sort of work

18:51

and pushing and, and, and so

18:54

on, it, uh, I

18:56

did. And, and, I mean, it's

18:58

been a good place to be like that. Actually,

19:00

I think it's a very good, partner.

19:04

Overall, we have a lot

19:06

of fun together. There's always been a good

19:08

social life in the department. and

19:10

for many years we've been, yeah,

19:14

you know, very sort of aligned in what

19:16

we want to do and so on. And a lot of

19:18

respect for all

19:21

sorts of computer science to, to

19:23

come back to maybe also what, you know,

19:26

your questions. So. I

19:28

mean, I don't think it was easy

19:31

in the early years to establish

19:34

the kind of HCI

19:36

and the kind of computer science that

19:39

we wanted to do in the department.

19:43

But I think that's sort of a thing

19:45

of the past and it was also, you know,

19:48

partly a thing of the

19:51

people who were there at the time and,

19:53

you know, it's just, it's different now.

19:56

There's a strong recognition that we

19:58

do our part and, you know, we're

20:00

as strong researchers as anybody

20:02

else. And, I mean, things

20:04

like getting an ESC advance grant is

20:07

obviously, you know, it helps, right?

20:09

I mean, the department as such is

20:12

very strong in that field. And, I

20:14

mean, we, we had.

20:17

Over a short period of time, uh, three

20:20

ERC advanced grants and, you

20:22

know, that's, I think that's not actually very

20:24

common. [Yeah]. Yeah. And,

20:27

uh, I mean, I think INRIA

20:29

has more, right? But otherwise,

20:32

if you look at computer science departments,

20:34

it's not that common. So

20:36

I think in that sense, we're, we're, we're sort of.

20:39

We're good because we know we're doing

20:41

well and it's a lot easier when you know

20:43

[that]. Yes, yes, you have some

20:45

of that external validation of,

20:47

of it being okay. Many people

20:49

I talk to are challenged

20:52

with the thing of, their research

20:54

area not being as respected

20:56

in more mainstream computer science departments. And

20:59

it sounds like your

21:01

department has done a really good job and from

21:03

early days. So you talked about things

21:05

like. the good social atmosphere,

21:08

you know, social, socialization and

21:11

the respect for one another

21:13

and, and also aligned. Can you say

21:15

some more about that? Like how does that all play

21:17

out practically that

21:20

you were able to build this from the beginning and

21:23

more importantly, I think sustain it and build

21:25

it because you must've had lots of people come and go

21:27

over the time. So there must be

21:29

some core, something core about the culture

21:31

there.

21:31

Yeah. I think.

21:34

First of all, that the people who are sort

21:37

of the early generation

21:39

of the computer science department that

21:42

I'm really too young to belong with

21:44

in a way, they were quite social

21:46

and quite good with each other ,like that.

21:49

And so they, They, you

21:51

know, they were just very good at making

21:53

sure that there was a social life

21:55

in the department and... [Was]

21:57

that like Friday afternoon drinks? Yeah.

22:00

Or going out bowling or like... [Yeah],

22:02

and summer parties, Christmas

22:04

parties and stuff like that. And,

22:07

we still do that. We also

22:10

do things like going on retreats

22:12

together all... All

22:14

of the senior staff in the department and I

22:16

think obviously it

22:19

has a, I mean, it's often

22:21

about things and changing the, I

22:23

don't know, the curriculum, what have you, it has

22:25

to be an agenda. But I think

22:27

the social part is also recognized

22:30

by all as an important part of,

22:33

[of going and doing these things]. So the relationship

22:35

building. So would you do those

22:37

retreats once a year?

22:39

Yes. Mostly. I mean,

22:41

COVID has, of course, as with many

22:43

things, changed that a little bit, but, but

22:46

yeah, and, uh, and

22:48

we normally go places where we also,

22:51

um, for many years, we had

22:53

a head of department who was very much into,

22:55

uh, running and orienteering

22:58

and stuff, and I think, you know, it's always been

23:01

part of it to, like, go on walks

23:03

or do other kinds of activities

23:05

and not just sitting in a meeting room

23:07

and do formal business. Uh,

23:11

so I think that, you know, there are many, many

23:13

ways that this has been been

23:17

handed over and, and, uh,

23:20

yeah, I don't know. I mean, [do

23:22

you have]

23:22

a common room that everyone goes

23:24

to for morning tea? [We're not very, we're]

23:26

not very good with that, to be honest.

23:28

Yeah. [So it]

23:29

is more the sort of special events

23:32

and [yeah. Yeah].

23:34

Okay. We have a. monthly

23:36

staff meeting, uh, but,

23:39

but I don't, I mean, I wouldn't say that

23:41

that's a particularly well sort of functioning

23:44

thing. It's difficult to just

23:46

even find a room that's suitable for,

23:48

for those kind of things. So anyway,

23:51

so I think that it's

23:53

not unproblematic to say.

23:56

Are there any other things that the department

23:59

has done over the years that you think has

24:01

really contributed to this? It sounds like a very

24:03

collegial sort of culture,

24:06

[respectful]. I think it's, I

24:09

don't know that the social

24:11

thing is kind of one thing, but I think we

24:13

have realized over the years

24:16

that people are generally good

24:18

researchers and performing well

24:20

and, and so on. And I think,

24:23

you know, even though you may. not

24:26

always like the idea that,

24:28

that, you know, there's benchmarking

24:30

and there's this and that, you know, I think there's,

24:32

it's part of the respect that people

24:34

have for each other that, that, you

24:37

know, that your colleagues are all

24:39

doing well. And, and I mean, it

24:42

also means that we're very sort of

24:45

picky about who we hire. And I think

24:47

sometimes that is

24:49

a challenge also. I mean, it's, you know,

24:51

it's sometimes It's the case

24:54

that there are people that, you

24:56

know, you really love to hire in various

24:58

ways that we end up not hiring

25:01

because they haven't the

25:04

merits that, that we need. And

25:06

it's an interesting sort of,

25:08

the academic merits. [Yeah]. So

25:10

that, so you're looking at both

25:12

the personal qualities and

25:14

that sort of fit and the

25:16

[academic sort of]. Yes, we do. Yes, we do.

25:18

Yeah. And it

25:20

also means that we spend quite a lot

25:22

of time when we're hiring people to be

25:24

honest, you know, it requires

25:27

a lot of energy. [I was just going to]

25:29

ask you how you do that because I

25:32

think hiring is really challenging and especially

25:34

these days as more and more institutions

25:37

are moving into some of

25:39

the models where we're not relying on

25:41

quantitative measures so much but allowing

25:44

people to tell more qualitative,

25:46

contextualized stories of their research

25:48

and how do we assess

25:51

people both from a work

25:53

point of view and from a fit? [Yeah].

25:56

I know, I think. I don't have

25:58

an easy answer to that. Quite

26:01

some years ago, we decided

26:04

that we are always bringing,

26:07

I mean, the people we're shortlisting are

26:10

sort of who we think are

26:12

relevant. Obviously, we do get a lot of applicants

26:15

that we don't consider like that. But

26:17

we bring them over and they get

26:19

to spend time with us and

26:21

we do interviews and they give talks.

26:24

We, you know, they get a chance to

26:27

go meet all the research groups

26:29

and not just the group that we

26:31

think they should belong with. And

26:34

so we actually spent quite a lot

26:36

of energy on people

26:38

we get for job interviews. So I think

26:40

we do get a fairly

26:42

good impression also of

26:46

You know, how interested they are

26:48

in the department,

26:50

how keen

26:53

they are to join, basically.

26:56

And, um, and,

26:59

and of course, on top of that, we're concerned

27:01

with, you know, The academic merits

27:03

and can they attract funding and

27:06

what have you that we also need

27:08

to concern ourselves with. But

27:10

I think it works, but the thing is It's

27:12

a lot of effort for whoever gets to

27:14

be on the hiring committee for these

27:16

particular rounds. And,

27:19

it can be a bit challenging at times, I

27:21

would say. Also because, You

27:24

know, my general feeling is that every time

27:26

we make four offers

27:29

to people, we're probably getting one.

27:34

And, of course, it's a sign

27:36

that the people we try to

27:38

hire are very competitive also. Yeah,

27:42

but also about the things. So it's a lot of

27:44

work, but I think it pays off. I

27:46

think we had a few experiences

27:48

like maybe, I don't know, 10

27:50

years ago of hiring

27:52

people that we thought really

27:56

didn't fit, and we don't want that,

27:58

basically.

27:59

So the effort is worth it for getting

28:01

better fits. Yeah. Yeah, and

28:04

the fit matters.

28:06

It does, it does.

28:09

I'm not expecting you to have an answer. I often wonder

28:11

about, um, the performative

28:14

aspects of these job interviews

28:17

and you know,

28:19

that when you are going around and meeting

28:21

lots of people and you know, standing up and

28:23

giving a talk and fronting the interview

28:25

and I'm thinking of panels I've been on

28:28

and that some people

28:30

are very, very good at presenting themselves

28:32

and doing that, whether they're sort of more

28:35

extroverts, or if you believe in those sorts

28:37

of spectrums or whatever, but, um,

28:39

and then there are other people who find

28:42

these sort of social interactions a little bit more

28:44

challenging and need more time to build relationships.

28:47

And I wonder whether we miss out on

28:49

some good people and some good fits because

28:52

of the necessary pressures

28:54

of the time. [Yep].

28:57

I think that it's very likely. I think.

29:01

Somehow I would say maybe

29:04

it's very Danish in a way to not

29:06

be terribly impressed by these. I

29:09

mean, there's a certain also, for instance, a very

29:11

American style of how you're selling

29:13

yourself. And I

29:16

don't know. I mean, I think we,

29:19

I'm not saying we're not hiring people like that,

29:21

but I think some, some of it is

29:23

also seeing in a way behind

29:25

that. And, um...

29:28

And I also, I mean, we also

29:31

do give people a chance to meet

29:34

with research groups

29:36

and the research committee and so

29:39

on in smaller groups and, and

29:41

over a couple of days, right? So

29:43

they do. I don't know. I, I

29:48

don't think we've often like had

29:50

people who are really just not, not

29:53

performing socially like that.

29:56

[Yeah. Yeah. Yeah].

29:56

And a couple of days. It does

29:59

give you time just to sort of settle

30:01

into it,

30:02

[versus an intense hour]. And often a lot

30:04

of these people do know somebody

30:06

in the department already and they get

30:08

sort of taken out for dinner and stuff. And

30:12

I think it's all part of making people

30:15

feel comfortable also.

30:18

Thinking about people applying for jobs and

30:20

that, and you've been at Aarhus for 40 years.

30:23

How do you talk to your students now

30:25

about issues of mobility

30:28

and whatever? And

30:31

also looking, when you're looking at people who

30:33

are applying for jobs, you know, like how

30:35

did those sorts of factors play in? [Yeah]

30:39

I think it's an interesting question.

30:41

Because somehow the

30:43

way things are,

30:46

for instance, with funding, at least

30:49

in Denmark, I think it's probably true

30:51

other places as well, mobility

30:54

is important, right? You do need to

30:56

show that you've been able to work in different

30:59

places and do different things. And

31:01

I think that is on

31:03

and off a challenge for

31:05

our local talent.

31:08

And, and again, it gets a little bit

31:10

back to this sort of work life situation,

31:13

right? So, so

31:16

I think there's a certain way

31:19

in which you have to play

31:22

the game of, of doing this.

31:24

So you have to go

31:27

abroad as a postdoc

31:30

or something. But I do find it slightly

31:32

ironic at times that. It's

31:35

kind of easier to hire somebody who

31:38

comes from elsewhere than one of

31:40

your own students, right? And

31:42

I think that's, it's

31:45

sad. And it's definitely something

31:47

we also, we're

31:49

thinking about. And,

31:51

again, we try to not

31:53

have, sort of,

31:56

Too formalistic and

31:58

too strict ways of thinking about this, but

32:00

I do think it is kind of Hurting

32:05

the people who we take in as PhD

32:08

students and who we have staying for a while

32:10

and so so

32:14

You basically need to have the conversation

32:16

with people about You know

32:19

going away for a while and then

32:21

maybe coming back and so on and yeah,

32:26

so I think it needs to be articulated

32:28

and talked about.

32:29

They're interesting tensions and trade

32:32

offs because, you said about we often

32:34

think that someone from outside is more

32:36

attractive, you know, than someone

32:39

that we know better. and that's

32:41

just a common thing. One of

32:43

our biases, unconscious biases,

32:45

I think. [Yeah]. So there's that side of

32:47

it. And can we be less... Biased

32:51

in that way. [Yeah], be more open.

32:53

What if we imagine this person as

32:55

coming from outside? How would we think? [Yeah].

32:58

And also just for people themselves. I

33:00

really think it's important that people have the right

33:03

to choose to stay living

33:05

somewhere because that's where their family

33:07

is or that's where they have other commitments. So that's where a partner

33:10

has commitments and not.

33:12

To be penalized in our

33:15

processes.

33:16

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's absolutely

33:18

correct. I think, at the same

33:20

time though, I do think

33:22

you learn from being in different

33:24

places. Like, I don't

33:27

think, I mean,

33:31

professionally, academically, it's not

33:33

a good idea to just stay in the

33:35

same place. Right. It's

33:39

not only because the research

33:42

councils and others think that it's a good

33:44

idea to

33:46

to move, but I think There's

33:49

something about shifting perspective

33:51

and and also I think maturing

33:53

and growing up as a as a person

33:55

as a researcher Where

33:58

you're helped when

34:00

you're going places.

34:02

[Right]. And you're just seeing different

34:04

ways of doing

34:05

[things]. Yes, exactly. and

34:07

ways of doing things both in terms of, you

34:09

know, how do you, how

34:13

do you work in the research group? How do you

34:15

manage? How do you, like

34:17

in Aarhus, we, for instance, have We

34:20

generally have bigger groups. We don't have

34:22

this German system of one professor and

34:24

one group, right? But, but

34:26

I think it obviously has, I

34:29

mean, we like it. That's why we have it. But

34:32

surely you can also learn

34:34

from being in a different kind of context.

34:36

For instance, one

34:38

of the. Things you

34:40

can learn or think about

34:42

is different ways of organizing

34:45

the research groups, different ways of thinking

34:47

about how you want to grow

34:50

your research group, but

34:53

different. I mean, and you and I had

34:55

these CHI early career symposia.

34:57

And I think, for instance, you know,

35:00

thinking about whether you want to be

35:02

the first and one and only HCI

35:05

person in a, uh, Computer

35:07

Science Department somewhere in Texas, not

35:10

to pick on that particularly, right? Or

35:12

you want to go and join a place where

35:15

there's already a bigger group of people. I

35:17

think it's one of these things that you can

35:21

reflect on, but that you may need to

35:23

see a few

35:25

different options to really

35:28

find out what's going on, right?

35:30

And so in that sense I think

35:33

it is a good idea that people [Yes].

35:36

Go places. Then, I

35:39

think it's also important, as

35:41

you were saying, to be flexible

35:44

about what that means.

35:46

And you're a good example of delivering

35:49

on that going to different places in

35:52

a different model than someone else who might have

35:54

actually had employed

35:56

[positions in different places]. Yeah, yeah,

35:59

yeah. But I think in a way, you could also say, you

36:01

know, I'm too old to, the,

36:05

a lot of the measures that people are

36:07

measured with today didn't really

36:09

apply when I was young. I think I

36:12

often feel that this is the case. Maybe

36:14

I would never have, you know,

36:18

have made it or, or, you know, maybe,

36:20

maybe my life would have been

36:23

different is in. If

36:25

some of these measures were in place when

36:27

I was young, I don't know. I mean, it's

36:29

of course pure speculation, but

36:32

I do think we also lose some people

36:34

just with this thing that we push

36:36

them out and we send

36:38

them off. But

36:41

of course it also has to do with.

36:46

The whole financial situation of the

36:48

university is, for instance, the fact that we

36:50

are very relying

36:52

,on external funding, right? We can't,

36:55

we being at least the computer

36:58

science department, it almost can't, you

37:00

know, have people. We can have a

37:02

few, but we generally cannot have

37:05

people who are not getting

37:07

funding and who are not doing

37:10

those kind of things. Because. We

37:12

are also measured and counted

37:14

in so many ways, like both

37:17

by the university and also by,

37:20

you know, the government society at large.

37:22

That we can't just acknowledge

37:24

these things, right? I think we can make exceptions,

37:27

but I think the other thing is obviously how

37:29

you, how

37:32

you talk about that internally

37:34

in the department if you choose to hire. Somebody

37:37

who is not, in a way,

37:39

at sort of the usual level

37:42

in one way or another. Which, I

37:44

think, can be difficult. Uh,

37:48

even though maybe you can make any

37:51

number of reasons why you've

37:53

done this. Yeah. Yeah.

37:56

Yeah, the complex environments, universities.

37:58

So many different competing constraints.

38:00

[Yes]. And just the basic fact

38:03

of limited resources.

38:04

Yes.

38:06

When you look back, you know, you

38:08

talked about the metrics that

38:10

weren't in place then, that are more

38:12

what people measure by now, what are some

38:14

of the big changes that you think you've seen

38:17

and how do you reflect on them as

38:19

in, are they heading in a good

38:21

direction or not?

38:25

Yeah, I do think that this whole business

38:27

of, I mean, you can say Google Scholar,

38:29

but it's not, of course, it's not just

38:31

Google Scholar, it's also Web of Science and

38:33

all of those things that are,

38:36

you know, it kind of changed the way

38:38

we can all look at

38:40

it. [Yeah] colleagues or

38:43

competitors or whatever they are,

38:45

right, and see what they've done, how

38:47

they, they're performing and so on

38:49

and find out also maybe

38:52

in a way what are the levels that

38:54

you're talking about, right? [Mm].

38:56

And, uh. [Yeah,

39:02

because they didn't exist]. I think in a way, you know,

39:05

it can be. Okay.

39:07

And as I was saying, I think for

39:09

my department, maybe it was also in

39:12

a way a, a

39:14

kind of a relief to see that people

39:16

were actually performing quite well. Then

39:18

I, you know, it's rather obvious that

39:20

even within computer science or within

39:23

anything, I think even within HCI,

39:26

there's a lot of difference. You know, these

39:28

measures are not absolute,

39:31

right? so even things like

39:33

people's h- index, differ.

39:37

It's quite a lot across,

39:40

for instance, the field of computer science,

39:42

right? There are areas where you got

39:44

very many

39:47

citations, very, you know,

39:49

many authors in some cases, but also

39:51

just many papers. And then there are others

39:54

where this is not the case. So you can't

39:56

understand this without looking

40:01

more specifically, comparing more specifically

40:03

with other people. But I think that

40:08

it has created a

40:11

change, uh, that

40:14

that this is a possibility to

40:16

for everybody to look

40:19

at and be aware

40:21

of. And I think it's,

40:23

you know, it's for good and for bad. It's,

40:27

it's good enough because it kind of articulates

40:30

some of the ways in which you

40:33

are measured, no matter, no matter

40:35

what, in a way, right? But quite

40:37

obviously, if you're not looking also on

40:39

the quality of what people doing, and

40:42

What other stuff they're also doing,

40:45

right, then, then it's not worth a whole

40:47

lot, really. Yeah.

40:49

Yeah. I know that, that

40:51

is a really interesting challenge,

40:55

the plus and minus. You

40:57

also said that you, at

40:59

the beginning you talked about being involved in teaching and research

41:01

and that, and also you mentioned university

41:03

politics, and that you always tend

41:06

to get involved. What, what sort of

41:08

roles were you involved in in politics and

41:10

how have you been able to shape your

41:12

university

41:13

[through that]? I was, yes. First

41:15

of all, I think what I've done most

41:19

sort of explicitly

41:21

that is university politics is

41:24

that I was on the Aarhus

41:26

university board of directors for

41:28

eight years, which is the sort of

41:30

links that you can be

41:33

as a representing the

41:35

academic staff I think

41:38

with that as with, you

41:40

know, even if you become

41:42

a member of your, the board of your child's

41:44

daycare, whatever, you know, it gives a

41:46

certain insight when you get to

41:48

see the

41:50

budgeting, the, the deliberations

41:54

and so on. So I think I,

41:58

I find it interesting because. Because

42:00

it is a way of understanding a lot

42:03

better, all these constraints

42:05

and what's happening and so on. So

42:07

I enjoyed it a lot, and

42:09

other than that, you know, I've been,

42:13

I can, I can almost not remember,

42:15

but I had many years

42:18

on the sort of, uh, teaching

42:20

committees of the department and so

42:22

on. But it's, it's really

42:24

in the past. I haven't done that

42:26

for maybe the past 20

42:28

years and I

42:31

liked it. But then again,

42:33

I think I did like at

42:36

least four reforms of our curriculum

42:38

and it takes a lot of work every time.

42:41

So, so I'm also happy that I,

42:44

I'm not doing that anymore. [Giving

42:46

other people the opportunity to do it]. Yes, you

42:48

can, you can say that. and

42:51

I mean, I've been involved with

42:53

the sort of department, management

42:58

may not be the right word, right, but, but

43:00

sort of leadership over the years with,

43:02

uh, we have, uh, for

43:05

many years been organized with this research

43:08

committee, which is basically, eight

43:11

to ten. professors

43:13

of the department. I've done that over many

43:15

years and sometimes we've also

43:18

like had to do

43:20

formal management

43:23

because for reasons all of a sudden say

43:25

we didn't have a head of department

43:27

for a while, stuff like that, but

43:29

mostly it's been more in a sort of

43:32

advisory role.

43:34

And so I mean, clearly with the teaching, there's

43:36

a focus to the action and the reforms of the curriculum

43:39

with the board or the research

43:41

committee and leadership there within

43:43

the department are there ways

43:45

that you've been able to have real impact?

43:48

Do you think, and what particularly have you

43:50

brought to it?

43:53

Yeah, I think there's both, both

43:56

at the local and also at the university

43:58

level, quite Obviously,

44:02

some strategic discussions

44:04

that are happening that are more

44:06

important at certain

44:08

times than

44:11

others. And, and I mean, when

44:14

I started on the AU board,

44:17

it was right after

44:19

there had been a major sort of university

44:22

reform in Denmark, where a lot of these

44:24

smaller universities, University

44:28

units had been fusioned into the

44:30

big university. So

44:32

we did spend a lot of energy finding

44:34

out how you would really integrate

44:37

those outlier

44:41

places in the university

44:43

and make them real university

44:46

units. It was not something that only happened

44:48

in, on the board, but we did spend

44:51

time on it. What else?

44:54

Yeah, so so I think yeah,

44:57

there has been these sort of strategic

44:59

discussions that

45:01

We've made of the time depending on

45:03

what's happening [Yeah] Do you see ways in

45:05

which? I don't know some of the same

45:08

core values that have underpinned your research

45:10

or some of the methodological approaches that In your

45:12

research have informed your participation

45:15

at these levels [Yeah],

45:16

I, I mean, I do, I,

45:18

I found it important that I represent

45:21

the academic staff, right? So

45:24

I, I spent time

45:26

discussing with people and who those

45:28

people were. You know, I've always said I

45:30

talk to people who want to talk to me. so

45:32

I think that's kind of one element of

45:34

it. And, uh, but,

45:38

but I've also tried

45:41

to, you know, get to

45:43

talk to the people, say

45:45

in the departments where there were major

45:48

changes happening that we would have to

45:51

relate to. Now obviously

45:54

a board is kind of an arm's length

45:56

kind of thing with the management of the

45:58

university, right? So the board

46:00

doesn't do management, it's somebody

46:03

else who does that. so If I think about

46:05

what I was trying

46:07

to do, it's been to

46:12

articulate to the board what

46:15

were the sort of the challenges

46:17

on the floor in various ways,

46:19

right? So I don't

46:21

think this is... [A]

46:22

user centered perspective of the

46:24

[university]. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, what

46:26

are people really doing? What's concerning people?

46:29

in their everyday life, whether it's

46:31

something with the teaching and the resources

46:33

or something. I, I think that

46:35

that has been important to bring up

46:38

because, you know, say

46:40

the head of the board, you know, he

46:42

or she, often talks mainly

46:45

to management, right? So this whole

46:47

sort of voice from the floor, I,

46:50

I mean, if you are a,

46:54

If you are elected

46:56

to represent the academic staff,

46:58

for instance, right, your peers, then

47:00

I think it's important to, to,

47:03

uh, in a way, find that voice

47:05

and have that voice on the board. Uh,

47:08

it doesn't necessarily mean that you all

47:10

the time have to agree with, uh,

47:13

whatever is said in those various

47:15

places, right? But, to voice

47:17

those concerns, I think, has

47:19

been important to me.

47:21

That's interesting, because one of your early projects

47:24

that you worked on was Utopia, which was, you

47:26

know, really about the voice from the floor

47:28

of people in workplaces. [Yeah,

47:31

yeah]. So that's an interesting...

47:34

Yes, no, no, I'm sure there is a kind

47:36

of a clear line there in

47:38

a way, yeah.

47:39

so, you and I both share,

47:42

an upcoming transition

47:44

at the end of next week,

47:46

in fact, where we both

47:48

shift into different sorts of roles

47:51

and our formal professorship role

47:53

ends. Does yours formally

47:54

[end]? No, it doesn't end. It doesn't end.

47:56

But I will... Reduce

47:58

my time to like 25

48:02

percent of my time. Yeah. Yeah

48:03

I have no choice because we have mandatory

48:06

so called retirement and How

48:09

did you decide now is a good

48:11

time to just make

48:13

that transition?

48:14

Yes, I'm not sure it is a good thing. No,

48:18

I think, well, well, I think this

48:20

is sort of a thing when, you

48:22

know, I remember thinking

48:24

when I got the ERC grant and it would be

48:27

a five year thing and there were these things

48:29

like you had to promise to do, like, I

48:32

need to make sure that all the data is deleted

48:35

a year after the project ends and so

48:37

on. You know, I was kind of

48:39

thinking, well, you know, that's actually.

48:41

probably about the time

48:44

when it's time to retire.

48:46

So, you

48:49

know, for the last, I don't know, five, seven

48:51

years, I've kind of been saying that,

48:53

that there will probably be a time once

48:56

this project is over and the

48:59

final things have been managed

49:01

where I will retire

49:04

or in some form or other. Um,

49:07

so I think. There's that.

49:09

I mean, I, I want to say I, I find

49:11

it. I mean, I like working and so on,

49:13

but I think I'm

49:16

buying myself flexibility and,

49:19

and it has

49:21

kind of become more and more a

49:24

thing for me that most

49:26

of my friends and so on have retired

49:28

so they can go do

49:31

things in the middle of the day. We

49:33

used to, I mean, we have this joke. I have

49:35

a group of old friends Women

49:38

I studied with and we called it the

49:40

girl dinners, right? And we always called

49:42

it that. And now they were not

49:45

girls anymore, but we are, it's obviously also

49:47

not dinners because nowadays people

49:49

are struggling to drive when it's dark

49:51

and all sorts of things. So now

49:53

it's a lunch instead. So, uh, so

49:55

anyway, so I think, you know, there's a

49:57

lot of, practical flexibility

50:00

that I'm hoping. To

50:02

get out of this chance to

50:04

spend more time with my grandchildren and

50:06

so on. Not that I haven't done that

50:08

I actually have been but So

50:12

I think things like that, but when

50:15

it comes to this business of doing 25

50:17

percent I'm really

50:19

not sure if this is the right solution,

50:21

honestly And there's some things

50:24

I want to continue doing for another while

50:27

Um, but I think It

50:30

also remains to be seen, like

50:32

within the next two or three years, how

50:35

much I want to continue working

50:37

or whether it makes sense at all or,

50:41

uh, but right now I still have a little

50:43

bit of this sort of, group management

50:46

that, that my head of department

50:48

wants me to continue

50:50

doing. We are in a transition

50:52

period. We've hired a new professor

50:54

who is going to. step up

50:57

and do some of those things, but I think it's

50:59

also part of giving him a chance to

51:02

find out exactly what he wants to

51:04

do and how we, you know, how we

51:06

will organize the whole HCI area

51:08

in the department because we

51:11

are also a little bit diversifying

51:14

and so we've hired. quite

51:17

a few and probably want to hire more people

51:20

in sort of information visualization

51:22

and more over towards computer

51:24

graphics and so on. And you know, are they

51:28

going to be part of

51:30

the HCI group or is it going to

51:32

be something else? Or is there a different

51:34

way we can divide

51:36

the groups? I think is something

51:39

that we need to discuss and I'd be happy

51:41

to, you know, Play

51:43

my part in that, but I'm

51:45

not going to be the

51:48

group leader like in 10 years from now,

51:50

for sure, it's not the plan. So

51:53

I think it's a bit sort of a

51:55

practical thing. I mean, I've also thought that,

51:58

it's nice to continue doing

52:00

a bit of writing and doing a few

52:02

things. So, I don't feel that,

52:04

that, you know. This

52:06

is over and I'm not looking back on

52:08

it. [It's not hard door close]. No, no, no.

52:11

And, uh, but I've had this,

52:14

it's interesting because I had a very

52:16

busy June and we had some exams

52:18

and so on, but I haven't been very busy

52:21

since coming back from, from the

52:23

summer holidays and in a way I think it's

52:25

kind of a, I enjoy that. So it's

52:27

kind of a sign that this is It's in a

52:29

way the right, right moment to,

52:31

uh, to step down and I mean, I like

52:34

say waking up here in Vienna

52:36

and not having to

52:38

think that I need to answer like

52:41

30, 40 emails before like

52:44

getting out of my hotel room and, you

52:46

know, things like that, I think, but it,

52:48

but it's obviously also a change,

52:51

right? [Yes. Yeah, it is a change]. Once you've been

52:53

so, you've been used to being.

52:56

In a way so disciplined about a lot of

52:59

things you do in your life just to make

53:02

This whole process happening

53:04

in your everyday life. I think it is it

53:06

is different, right? But I am

53:08

looking forward to sitting in you know,

53:11

reading more books or whatever

53:13

[Going to the girls lunch] Yes, the girls lunch,

53:15

exactly, the lunch Yes

53:20

So that was interesting, just hearing the threads

53:22

of community and family again

53:24

in the things that you're looking forward to, the opportunities

53:27

that it opens up. And

53:29

I don't know, good on you for that

53:31

sort of transition as well, because there's

53:33

an identity shift, isn't there? Like when we,

53:36

because it's such a demanding career

53:39

role, career role in a way,

53:42

especially as a professor or leading a group

53:44

and that, and there's. Yeah,

53:46

there are interesting sort of identity transitions.

53:49

Yes, yeah. I definitely

53:51

think, you know, I made the choice over

53:53

the years to be

53:56

there in the office quite

53:58

much, right? So I'm normally

54:01

in the office. And I was actually

54:04

saying to, uh, to Klimt,

54:06

my colleague, one day when we were just sitting

54:08

and chatting over lunch in the summer when

54:10

there weren't that many people around,

54:12

you know. I think I also just have

54:14

to get used to, you

54:17

know, not feeling guilty when everybody's

54:20

at work and I'm just home

54:22

and it's not a workday,

54:25

you know, I don't know. So,

54:27

so I think there's, there are a few things to, to

54:30

be worked on with that.

54:32

Well, we can share experiences. It

54:35

is that transition and just being curious about

54:38

how it plays out. [Yeah. Yeah]. When

54:40

you look back, coming to the end of September,

54:43

what are you proud of? Like what, how

54:45

do you, how do you see

54:46

[your legacy]? Yeah,

54:49

that is a good question. And then yeah, I'm,

54:51

I don't know. It's

54:54

not something that, for me

54:56

takes up a lot of headspace.

54:58

I don't think a lot about it. I think it's

55:00

also just like maybe.

55:04

My personality is the way I

55:06

am. I had a long talk with the, I

55:08

went to my 50s

55:11

school anniversary the other day.

55:13

And then, you know, there was this guy and he

55:15

said, you know, I'm very much one

55:17

sort of living in the moment and looking

55:19

at the future and not having

55:21

regrets and thoughts about the past. And

55:23

I think that's also very much

55:26

true for me. I don't, I take

55:28

sort of the chances where

55:30

they are, when they are there. I've never

55:32

had like a

55:35

strategy or thought that I knew

55:37

I would... [This grand, clear path].

55:40

So, I think, in that sense,

55:42

I'm also not very

55:44

concerned about my

55:48

own legacy, but I think... I

55:50

mean, it is interesting, quite

55:52

obviously, it is interesting, You

55:55

know, in a time when

55:58

obviously there weren't that many women

56:00

in computing and all of

56:02

that sense, all of that stuff

56:05

that I kind of made

56:07

it to be sort of an international

56:10

recognized, what

56:12

have you, a person

56:14

in this community. And,

56:17

I, you know.

56:20

I'm not sure, in a way, how that

56:22

happened, and I'm also not terribly

56:25

concerned about it, but I think, you

56:27

know, growing up it was not something that,

56:29

that, you know, I had any idea this was

56:32

even a possibility, right? So it's

56:34

not like that at all, but, but obviously

56:36

I'm proud of that, you know, and,

56:38

and, uh, I'm also,

56:41

I, I mean, I quite honestly also

56:44

very much appreciate the fact

56:46

that in, We

56:48

do at Aarhus University, of course, we

56:50

do have a much, a wider HCI

56:53

group than just the people in computer

56:55

science, right? And I do

56:59

have, in a way,

57:01

the mentor role for quite many people.

57:03

And, uh, I've

57:06

always also, you know,

57:09

had this idea that we should do things together

57:12

and share and so on and, and not sort

57:14

of, push too

57:16

much towards these individual egos.

57:19

And so I am in a way of quite

57:21

proud that they think it's

57:24

still useful to come and talk to me about

57:26

all sorts of things, right? It may

57:28

sound a little bit banal, but I think, you

57:30

know, I treasure it when they come and ask

57:32

about these things, right? And I also

57:34

like that I have the time to talk to

57:36

people and that, you know, my

57:38

door is open and so on. So I think even,

57:41

even that as much as sort of the

57:43

international claim to fame is actually

57:45

something that matters.

57:47

Lovely. I can just sort of see these

57:49

themes and threads and really richly

57:52

held values that just flow

57:55

through.

57:55

Yeah. Yeah. [So much].

57:57

Because again, like you talked about together

57:59

and sharing, just. I

58:02

[those sorts]. And I mean, I think, part

58:04

of why we have a strong HCI

58:06

group, I mean, generally at AU is

58:09

because we've collaborated and always

58:12

had these various

58:14

kinds of activities together

58:17

in various forms. And then of course it has shifted

58:19

over the years what we found most

58:21

interesting and what has been most

58:23

central and who, you know, people

58:25

have come and gone and so

58:28

on. But I think it's actually

58:30

that there is something

58:32

to kind of feeling at

58:34

home in that wider group. And, and we said

58:36

so, so for a while Kim Halskov and

58:38

I had funding from AU to, to

58:41

do this thing. So we had this participatory

58:44

IT center and we, we spent

58:46

quite a bit

58:48

of the money that the funding we had

58:50

from the university for doing both

58:53

internal and external seminars.

58:55

And I think a lot of people

58:58

from that time really appreciated

59:01

the fact that you could go. Most

59:04

often it was just a one day thing with maybe

59:06

a dinner at the end, but, go share

59:09

with the other people in your busy everyday

59:11

life, have a day where you had a chance

59:13

to talk about research

59:16

and your research, but also

59:18

that of others and so on. And, and

59:20

we try to continue that even though we

59:22

haven't had funding for it for, I don't know,

59:25

five years maybe. And,

59:27

and I know they want to. They,

59:31

they want to continue it. Right. I've

59:33

handed it over and Kim has too,

59:36

to some younger colleagues. Right. But,

59:38

but I think it's still sort

59:40

of the whole idea that we do that

59:42

we meet, say, once a year and

59:44

we, or twice a year, but

59:46

one of them, often with some

59:48

external visitors and

59:51

some talk that it is very

59:53

much appreciated. Mm-hmm. and, uh, And

59:55

people show, and they come and

59:57

join even though they are busy

1:00:00

people in their various forms.

1:00:01

Yeah, yeah, that's lovely.

1:00:04

Yeah. I'm curious about the fact that

1:00:07

you said last night when we were talking

1:00:09

about being a single parent a lot of the time

1:00:11

while you were working as well. Yeah.

1:00:14

How did you make that work?

1:00:15

How did I make that work? It's, I think

1:00:17

it's, I don't know if I, I mean.

1:00:21

Yes, it's, it's a good question.

1:00:23

I guess in a way you can say you

1:00:26

don't have much of a choice, right? So you,

1:00:28

you make it work. Um,

1:00:33

I, I,

1:00:38

I wonder at times, what

1:00:40

my son would, would say about, you

1:00:43

know, how, how he's

1:00:45

been brought along to different things.

1:00:47

Uh, but I think, um, Well, first of all,

1:00:49

I I won't say I mean, I actually thought

1:00:52

about when I came back to the hotel. You

1:00:54

know, I've had role models, right? There were

1:00:56

people like Joan Greenbaum, who

1:00:58

was a great colleague of mine, who was sort

1:01:00

of traveling the world with

1:01:02

her two youngest sons for

1:01:04

quite some years. So I think without

1:01:07

having it very deliberately as a

1:01:09

sort of I kind of think I saw

1:01:11

that, you know, you could be

1:01:13

you could do it right. And in

1:01:15

times I

1:01:17

also think that, how

1:01:20

can you say it, but that I've been fortunate

1:01:22

enough that I actually

1:01:24

had the budget,

1:01:27

the financial situation that I

1:01:29

could bring my son along to various

1:01:32

things. So we traveled

1:01:34

a lot when he was younger and he has

1:01:36

a, He likes hotels.

1:01:39

I wonder whether it's something that came

1:01:41

out of that or it's more like, you

1:01:43

know, he likes hotels, so it wasn't

1:01:45

too bad for him to travel. Uh,

1:01:50

we also, uh, where,

1:01:53

where we lived basically

1:01:56

all the time, we had some very good neighbors.

1:01:58

So it's also been

1:02:00

the case I think, that when

1:02:03

my son was younger, that, and he didn't

1:02:05

mind much whether I was actually there

1:02:07

or not, as long as he was sort of

1:02:10

home. But home could mean, like

1:02:13

any of his friends in the neighborhood.

1:02:15

So, he'd been, you know, put

1:02:17

to bed in many different houses, and

1:02:20

playing and having dinner with people and

1:02:22

so on. And, I think, It worked,

1:02:25

right? But it, of course, also

1:02:27

meant, for instance, that this business of

1:02:30

choosing to commute a

1:02:32

couple of hundred kilometers every

1:02:35

day to for a different job was

1:02:37

not really attractive. And

1:02:39

thinking about moving to a news

1:02:41

place would also be more

1:02:46

of a thing, right? It wouldn't just involve

1:02:48

me. And I think,

1:02:51

So it brought a whole sort

1:02:53

of social setup. Um,

1:02:57

I mean, we

1:02:59

were also in, in particular in

1:03:01

sort of the younger years before Jonas

1:03:04

started school. He was also spending a lot

1:03:06

of time with his father when I was traveling.

1:03:08

So that was also fine since.

1:03:12

That involved some travel as well. He

1:03:14

couldn't really do it when he started school,

1:03:16

so we had to find other other

1:03:19

ways of doing that. So I think that, you know,

1:03:21

the whole support system, my parents were

1:03:23

there in the early years.

1:03:25

Um, they'd obviously

1:03:28

helped a lot. But I had

1:03:31

support also. I mean, my brother and his

1:03:33

family, we have. Children the

1:03:35

same age, and that's also quite

1:03:37

helpful at times, but

1:03:40

I don't know, but I sometimes think, you know, I can see

1:03:42

how difficult it is for my,

1:03:46

so my granddaughter, for instance, in

1:03:48

a way, maybe there's something here with covid

1:03:51

babies, right? She's not very used to being

1:03:54

sort of handed over to other people,

1:03:56

and I don't think I had many thoughts

1:03:59

about that when Jonas was

1:04:01

that age, and I I'm

1:04:04

not sure I want to think too much about why

1:04:06

that was, but I think it was also a necessity

1:04:08

for me, right? Yeah. He needed to

1:04:10

be able to go sleep. like

1:04:14

with my parents or with my brother

1:04:17

with it. I mean, it was not,

1:04:19

it wasn't that sort of question.

1:04:22

[Necessity].

1:04:22

And the relationships that you had with those people

1:04:24

from the sounds of it,

1:04:25

if it had been totally impossible for

1:04:27

him, it probably also wouldn't have happened. Right?

1:04:29

[Yeah]. And, you don't know. It's difficult

1:04:32

to say that, that, I mean, he was

1:04:34

a good. He was a good

1:04:36

kid like that, that he also,

1:04:38

yeah, he liked himself. He sort

1:04:41

of also took it very much.

1:04:43

But I wonder at times, you

1:04:45

know, what he was really

1:04:48

thinking about. Yeah.

1:04:52

Um, I'm just thinking we

1:04:54

should probably just wrap up.

1:04:56

Yeah. And Is

1:04:59

there anything that we haven't talked

1:05:01

about that you would like to

1:05:04

bring up?

1:05:06

Probably a lot of things we haven't talked about.

1:05:10

[There are lots of things we haven't]. Nah, I think this is fine. If you've got

1:05:12

more questions, you know, feel free.

1:05:16

I just do want to say thank you for

1:05:18

being a pioneer because, you

1:05:21

know, back in the, 70s,

1:05:25

80s, that was really

1:05:27

radical. Being a woman in computer science

1:05:30

and in particular what you've done

1:05:32

for the HCI community over the years.

1:05:34

And the work is just so

1:05:37

influential. And, I know that we,

1:05:40

not putting too much store on metrics, but

1:05:42

if we did look at your Google scholar profile. the

1:05:45

indications of impact on

1:05:47

people's research is huge

1:05:49

in the various

1:05:52

publications and the concepts and

1:05:54

commitments that you've brought to the field around

1:05:57

participation and thinking about mediation

1:05:59

and tools and ecologies of

1:06:02

artifacts and all sorts of different,

1:06:04

different concepts. So, thank

1:06:06

you for all of that work and

1:06:08

for just being such a

1:06:10

good colleague and team

1:06:13

member and wishing you all the best

1:06:15

in this transition and

1:06:17

exploring the next

1:06:18

[phase] Likewise. [yes.

1:06:21

And we can share stories]. Yes, we can. Yeah.

1:06:25

Yeah. [Thank you very much]. Thank you.

1:06:32

You can find the summary notes, a transcript,

1:06:35

and related links for this podcast on

1:06:38

www. changingacademiclife. com.

1:06:42

You can also subscribe to Changing

1:06:44

Academic Life on iTunes, Spotify,

1:06:47

and Google Podcasts. And you

1:06:49

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1:06:51

on Twitter. And I'm really hoping

1:06:53

that we can widen the conversation about how

1:06:56

we can do academia differently. And

1:06:58

you can contribute to this by rating the podcast

1:07:01

and also giving feedback. And if

1:07:03

something connected with you, please

1:07:05

consider sharing this podcast with your colleagues

1:07:08

together. We can make change happen.