I have an incredible guest today, Indu Arora. She is an expert in many areas. She is an yoga and Ayurveda therapist and her philosophy is nothing has the greatest power to heal but self. She has written several books and we will talk about Mudras: The Sacred Secret. She has taught and been insprired by Kriya yoga, Himalayan yoga, Kashmiri yoga, Shivaism and Sivananda yoga. Welcome Indu and thank you for joining us on the podcast. Let's start at the basics: What is a Mudra?

01:32                                     Well, please accept my Namaste Stephanie to you as well as my greetings and Namaste to all the listeners. So yeah, what is Mudra? You know, when we talk about a subject, there are three basic ways to understand what it is. One is we can simply understand the meaning of the word. Second, if we go more on linguistics, we can understand what is the root of this word. And the third is actually left for exploration, which means your own experience and realization will help you unveil the meaning. So we can talk about the first two. When we say the word Mudra, it basically means a gesture, a lock, a seal, an impression, and even currency. But basically it's a nonverbal mode of communication. Now, there are so many different meanings to the same word, but where we use the word and in which context you're using it, the meaning of it changes, but what keeps it logged and anchored is the root. So that takes us to the second meaning of the word. And the root from which the word Mudra is derived is mud. Mud then comes a suffix - dru. Now mud means delight and dru means to draw forth. So if we combine these two things together, it basically means to draw forth from Vidan (sp?)a state of delight innate happiness, joy. So a practice, a tool that helps us unreal that innate state of happiness and delight that is mudra in context to yoga.

03:13                                     Excellent. How does that work? I mean, how do you draw forth that delight by using mudras?

03:22                                     So again, there are a couple of ways to look at it. One is to understand that there are different kinds of mudras depending upon from which group of texts we are refereeing and what kind of Mudra. Are there are Mudras that are used in classical Indian dances, there the entire story or legend as communicated merely with the movement of the eyes, face and neck, hand and so on and so forth. The second group of texts is you know the Mudras which are associated with mantra chanting and you know for example: Gyatri mantra there are 32 Mudras, hand Mudras that go along with the practice of Gyatri mantra and the third series of texts or group of texts mudras that are used at the time of specific rituals and worships or invocations and so on and so forth. When you talk about Yoga Mudras there are mudras which are used for meditation and then are mudras that are used for therapy. So then you asked the question of how does it actually work and unveil that inner state. It really depends. What kind of Mudras are we talking about. If we talk about spiritual Mudras, they are actually, those are the mudras that are actually unveiled in a state of meditative experiences to the Yogi's, to the Rishes, to the sages, which means that once they were in that state of Yoga, mentally, physically, emotionally, pranically their bodies, their eyes, you know, either logged up or roll down or close gently and their hands would go in different positions. In that case, we are simply mimicking the consequential body positions so that it slowly when you bring the fingertips together in different hand positions, it slowly kind of start relaying a signal, creating a specific loop of energy, creating a certain impression over and over and over again, almost like a domino effect. To slowly bring that affect just starts from physical, sensory, expedience, kinesthetic experience to changing of our biorhythm, our body temperature and our state of mind and of our state of emotions. Now, the second category of Mudra Therapeutic Mudras, they are totally based on the art and science of understanding and maintaining that ratio, proportion and harmony of the five elements. Earth, water, fire, air and ether. And the foundation of Yoga practices and Ayurvedic practices is that everything is made up of five elements. So whatever we are experiencing in the sense of imbalance, whether physically, mentally, emotionally, in whatever form it is. It is a result of the change in the ratio and proportion of these five elements and our hand represents the five elements. If you look at your palm palm facing up, your, let's start with the ring finger. The ring finger represents the earth, little finger - water, thumb - fire, index finger - air, and the middle finger - ether. Now how you combine the thumb and the fingers together, it will help in either increasing the element, reducing the element or purifying the element. And as a result of it, the different organs, organ systems receive a full or fresh supply of oxygen, blood circulation and also the intercellular and extracellular communication becomes more sharper and clearer and the metabolic wastes at released. So this is what I mean by you know, unveiling of happiness or delight, which here it means heath physical, mental, emotional health. So I know it was a short question and a little longer, but I wanted to go step by step a little bit because I know this subject is so new for a lot of us.

07:13                                     Yes. You said that in the Indian dance, that mudras also included not only the hands but the eyes, the neck and other parts. Is that true of mudras in general that is just not hand motion?

07:35                                     Absolutely correct. There are so many different kinds of Mudras. The most common ones are the hand mudras because they are the ones that were talked about or practice the most or shown the most. But basically there are Mudras. Let's take a journey from our head to toe. There are mudras of the eyes, you know that we use in prana. When you fix your eyes on a candle flame or something, or you roll the eyes and look at the tip of the nose and the center of the eyebrows or focus the eyes on the tip of the tongue. Those are the Eye Mudras then that are Mudras of the oral apparatus of your mouth. You know, when you round the lips and say ohm or when we roll the tongue, you know, vertically or horizontally for practicing the cooling breath, that is a mudra the tongue. Then there is mudras of the neck, you know, in certain postures like bridge pose and the shoulder stand, you tuck the Chin in Or in certain practices bandhas, you know, Jalandhara bandha , the Chin lock or the Mula Bandha or the abdominal lock or the root lock. In all these things we are practicing the Mudras in fact bandhas are types of mudras and then there are hand Mudras, which are the commonest ones then that are feet mudras. When you join the foot soles in Namaskar or in Tree pose, you press keep the foot sole by the inner thigh or by the knee or by the ankle depending upon where you can find most, balance or which one is most convenient and effortless for you. So, and then there are full body Mudras like the Gomughasana and I will not translate it as cow head face because it has such a deeper, I'm in seriously, I can talk about the name of an asana and it's actual real meaning versus you know, just the translated version. But I will just say Gomughasana, you know what I'm talking about? Or tree pose, they are actually all body mudras. Mudra is a state of the mind expressed through the body.. we have kind of a small slice of what mudras really are, It's a much deeper and and kind of fascinating idea that mudras are really expressing through the body certain things. As a yoga teacher or a yoga student, what would you do to find some good information and feel that it's really good for you as an individual?

10:23                                     Okay, so there are two ways. One is, you know how I shared in the beginning that that is this third meaning of the word or third way to understand the meaning of the word. And that is exploration in your own experience. So that is one thing I would urge the listeners, the practitioners, the teachers, is that experience what you are practicing. And that would mean maybe practicing, just opening up a mudra book and just whatever opens up or whatever aspect inspires you, practice that Mudra but while you're practicing, pay attention to what it does to you because otherwise it all sounds so magical. You know, you hold your hand like this and it will have this effect on kidney or liver or lungs. How does that actually happen? It happens because when you hold your hands in a certain way, it exerts a specific nerve ending tension. It exerts a certain self acupressure. It triggers reflexology. And if you talk in terms of Ayurveda, triggers marma points in our hands and through our hands in different parts of our body. And by doing so, it changes our biorhythm. It changes the structure of our breath, the length of inhalation, exhalation, the temperature of the body, the taste in the mouth, the kinesthetic experiences, the sensations, all of that changes by merely observing. So do not interfere, just observe when you're practicing. And slowly you will get a grip of it. That how is my body responding to it? If you feel calmer than before, clearer than before, restful than before, focused on how you are before you know it's working. And if it does not for you, the body will speak. Maybe you feel uncomfortably cold or uncomfortably hot or your mouth may start feeling parched and dry or you might feel a sense of nausea or headache. If you get these signs and symptoms from the body, then you know this is not working for you. So that is one path. Explore. Just open up the book and practice and give time for your body to respond and stay a witness. The second way I would say is let's say I want to explore the Mudras and in a certain way and therapeutic way, do it for myself or even kind of introduce it if you're teaching a class or leading a class or a group. So in that way I would say that let's go into the foundation of Yoga, Yoga therapy, and Ayurveda. Any kind of imbalance that we experience in the body is either as a result of agni or fire imbalanoce, which is metabolism imbalance or digestion imbalance or the vayu imbalance. When there is Vata disturbance, which means there is some discomfort or disharmony in the nervous system and and as a result of it that is either physical disturbance or mentally, emotionally there is a disharmony, so the root cause of all the conditions, anything that we experience in the sense of disease, disharmony lies in either agni which means fire, or vayu, which means air or vata. So one would be: practice the mudra related to vayu. Where you fold the index finger at the root of thumb and keep the other three fingers stretched out and press the index finger with the thumb over it. This is to calm down the vayu and if you're working to balance the agni that is just fire. For that you bring all the four fingers and the thumb together. These are the two basic mudras which anyone can practice. It will help in calming down the Vata and balancing the agni, not by increasing or decreasing. It may be harmonizing it. So that is one path that I would say that that is really good for yourself. The second is, you know, practice of the mudras of five elements. That is the foundational understanding of our body and the cost models that the microcosm and the macrocosm is made up of five elements and anything that's happening inside of our body at the physical, mental, emotional level, which is a disturbance, is a result of disharmony in the ratio and proportion of these five elements. So practice the mudras of these five elements, earth, water, fire, air, and ether holding them for minimum two to three minutes and practicing them two to three times a day. Now you can introduce that practice to the group, exploding one mudra each day, or exploring all five mudras depending upon the time and the readiness and the curiosity. . So these are the two ways I would suggest.

15:12                                     You said that some of these are therapeutic and it's not really a metaphor is it. I mean you're saying that by pressing certain ways with your hands and probably with the other areas that you talked about, you're actually giving a different nerve signal to certain areas, so it's actually a physical change done by this. Is that fair to say?

15:41                                     Absolutely. Absolutely. What is your body position? Tell me all these postures. Why do we have so many different postures? What is the benefit of all these different postures? Each posture triggers a specific response in our nervous system, creates or stores or awakens a specific chemical reaction in our body, awaken certain chemicals and changes of our biorhythm. That is why we try so many different postures apart from the fact that each one of them is working, twisting, turning , stretching, contracting a specific organ area, organ system or joint and so on and so forth. Apart from that, it has a tangible effect by changing our biorhythm. That's the same that goes with Mudras, that when you press the hands together by bringing the finger and the thumb close to each other, it is actually changing our bio rhythm. It is not a magic, you know, one part of it is just communication which is body language, but the other part of it is science and I have been, you know the first time I was introduced to Mudras I was 15 years and since then I have been practicing it and I've experience that results in my body and that is what I would urge the readers, the listeners to do that when you read something, when you listen to something, apply it and see what are the results for yourself. If this speak to you, if it is working for you, go ahead and do it. If it is not working for you, if it is not connecting, don't waste time, move on. But it does work if you do it sincerely. Every Mudra creates a rhythm in the body. It's like you know like a vibratory field, like a spiral effect. It creates a rhythm in the body that stays for four to six hours. Now when we go a nutritionist and prescribe a supplement or to a doctor and she prescribed some medicine, they say, okay, take twice in a day or once in a day and so on and so forth. They say that because the effect of that medication is going to stay in our system for that time and after that you need again, a second dose. The same goes for all these yoga practices. mudra creates a rhythm that kriya stays in the body for four to six hours. So if you are doing it as therapy, you must do it three times a day for that rhythm that you have generated to sustain and stay in the body. So if you're starting and doing a Mudra practice as therapy, practice it for many months, seven days, give one day for each tissue, you know, let it speak to all the seven level of your tissues and practice it for two minutes, three times a day. If you don't see any change in your sleep patterns and your appetite and your level of rest focus, then it is not for you. But I know it works. So you have to try it sincerely.

18:34                                     The key to this is to be really self observant about what this is doing to you. That it's just not something you do at they sitting in a particular way and when you're meditating or when you're just focusing. But really the cell phone awareness is the key to this.

18:55                                     Again, for two different practices, if it is a therapeutic Mudra, it was really important that you stay a witness to the effects of the practice so that you can modify and it's almost like a communication. You know, when you do a practice for your body, your body speaks and the practice should not be a monologue. It should be a dialogue. It should not be that this is what I'm going to do today. And I tick mark by the end and I did it and I did a great job. It is a dialogue when you are talking to someone. I'm sure no one enjoys it. When you're talking to someone with the idea of conversation and there is only one person speaking and the other person does not have any chance to speak. In this case with practices, you're speaking to yourself. You do the practice, you listen, you let the body communicate, the body communicates through temperature, through taste, through all the five sensory organs, through kindness tactic experiences, stay present to them when they are therapeutic. Melvin, there are spiritual, the language is different. The language is the state of your mind. So in that case you do not separate so much you because by separating you almost create interference with the practice. If you're so much hyper aware of what is my taste, what is my body temperature, then that meditation, which is one plus one is equal to none or numbness, we'll create a separate identity. So what kind of mudras you are practicing makes a difference to how you are going to interact with them or just to witness them or simply allow them? So in spiritual Mudras, let's take an example of the most common, spiritual Mudra, ca;;ed the Gyan mudra, where the word Gyan means wisdom. This is Gyan seal. When you join the index finger pad with the thumb pad and keep the rest of the three extended, you know which one I'm talking about? It's the most common mudra that anyone must have ever seen in any picture in the name of mudras or in the name of a Buddhist sculpture and so on and so forth. Now, this mudra is called wisdom seal for a reason. In this kind of mudra, you do not so much pay attention to your body contemplation and taste in the mouth and so on and so forth, but more the state of the mind. This Mudra has beautiful symbology. If you extend your palm forward and face up and joined the index finger with the town, the index finger represents the individuated mind and it represents the Shakti, the feminine energy. The thumbpresents a universal mind, the consciousness and the masculine principle. So then you bring the index finger pad with the thumb pad. It represents the union of the individuated mind, the matter, the feminine energy with the Universal Mind, consciousness and the masculine energy and that represents yoga and that is the wisdom we are talk about. I'm beyond the state of awake. I'm beyond the state of dream state. I'm beyond the dreamless sleep. I'm beyond these three states of mind. Then if we talk about the context of Ayurveda, I am beyond the three Gunas, Sattva, Rajas and Tamas. Those of us who might be familiar with the ayurvedic terminology or I am beyond the three Doshas Vata, Pitta and Kapha and those of us who are practicing Tantra and yoga, I'm beyond the bondages of time: past, present, and future. So there is such a symbology in this Mudra that merely by holding it, I am communicating to myself that I am beyond these three: the bondages of time and place, states of mind and doshas. I am the union between the individuated mind and the universal mind and it is represented not by the coming together of this, but by the hollow that is held in the loop. We again get lost in because you know that yoga means plus means joining. It could mean one plus one is equal to two or one plus one is equal to 11 or one plus one is equal to infinity, but yoga is a different kind of union here at means one plus one is equal to none. So that hollow in the loop between the index finger and the thumb representing noneness, the void or even the everythingness, not noneness is everythingness also. So when you are practicing this Mudra, then pay attention initially to the point of contact between the index finger and thumb. And as you pay attention to it, you can hear or sense a pulsation like heartbeat, throbbing at the point of contact. Pay attention not to the throbbing, but the silence between the two throbs. Let them be connected like a string of beads. Silence to silence, to silence. That is the gateway into this loop into this void, into that nothingness that unveils the state of mind, which is not colored, which is not this or that. So see here we are not paying attention to the taste. Here we are paying attention to a different aspect.

24:53                                     I mean it's so complex. I mean you went through the whole thing and said, okay, all of this has meaning. And I can understand now why you might want to do this, but are all mudras like that, that they have layers and layers of meaning.

25:09                                     The meditative, spiritual mudras do. There are Mudras associated with Chakras, there are mudras associated with mantras. They do have layers and layers of meaning and symbology and almost they open a gateway to enter into a different state. And when we talk about therapeutic Mudras that is not so much about symbology, that is more about pressure and posture. So where are you putting the pressure? What is your body position? Are you allowing the channels in the Meridians to be open for communication so that the right messages can go in and the metabolic waste can move out?

25:46                                     Okay, so really I understand that they may not have been started with yoga, but they have so much to add our practice and to our teaching.

26:01                                     Everything which we call a yoga practice is a mudra. Whether it'd be practicing pranyam, a breathing practice, alternate nostril breathing, how you fold your fingers to press the nostril. That is a hand mudra now that has a deep symbology and maybe we have time or not have time to go into it. I will leave it for you to see if that question comes up. Everything even the practice of agnisar are you know, bramacharya, which is also known as the breath of fire. They're the place, the place where we place our hands over body position. That is a Mudra in the asanas that is mudras, in the meditation over body position why cross legged only. Why the spine has to be upright, why it cannot be leaning forward or backward, why the chin has to be parallel. Everything. It is basically coming from the Mudras, but I would also like to say I know I'm sharing a lot of different details which kind of explore its intensity and depth. I also want the listeners to know that each one of you, no matter how you're sitting right now, no matter if you're laying down and listening, you are in Mudra. Mudras are accessible to everyone and everyone knows about it. Even if we do not know the term, we are all practicing mudras,of our body language is mudras. How the expression in our eyes change and squinted them or make them broader or focus them. It is Mudra how we move over hands and at times interlace the fingers or keep the hand on the chin. These are, or how we say hello and how we say bye these are all Mudras so you know them. The only thing is now you're knowing them a little bit more. That's all.

27:42                                     So this is a lovely introduction to move drugs, but you've really done a wonderful job of kind of hinting at the complexity of them and if someone is really interested in that, how do you suggest that they explore it more? What's the most effective way shall we say?

28:05                                     I would say that in your meditation, explore it, you know, hold one of these bija mudras and see how does it change your meditative experience, which means that how easy or effortless it becomes for you to slip into the zone of talk freeness. I wouldn't say thoughts lessness because there could be freedom from thoughts but there could not be minus thought state because as long as we're alive there will be vibrations and that will be thought and so on. So one is you know in your meditation, introduce them with that. If you are not doing yet and choose any mudra. My favorite one is the Yang would rather that I just shared with all of you. Just use that with the palms facing up or palms facing down, whichever is more comfortable, like there'd be that space for you to experience and explore and if you are looking for practicing therapeutic Mudras, a good starting point would be the five elements or the five Pranam mudras:, the prana, vayu, udana, apana practicing those Mudras, taking a Sankalpa, making a resolve for doing it for seven days, two minutes, three times a day, and allowing the space to experience how is the mudra communicating to you. But if these teams do structured ways for you, a lot of my students, I know what they do is they just open up the book and see which mudra comes up. They believe in the power of you know that there are no coincidences and they practice at Mudra and see how it changes their breath and how does it make them feel. So you can choose the structured pathway or can choose to be absolutely free and see how it unveils to you.

29:45                                     I want to really thank you and Indu this is just been fascinating. I really had no idea that there was so much to mudras. If you would like to contact Indu. She is that Info@ I will spell this. It's y o g s a d h n a. dot. com. It's not yoga. It's Yog and website is www.yogsadhna.com. Her Book Mudra. The sacred secret is available in Europe. It's actually been translated into French and German. It's available on her website, which I just gave you and on Amazon. So it sounds like an excellent resource for those of you that have become interested in this. Her Facebook pages is InduAroraOfficial and Indu Arora and Official are all caps. Instagram is the same, but there are no caps. So it's into Aurora official. So this is how you might like to get a hold of Indu to find out how. I know I've looked at a small youtube video that she had about mudras, which was very fascinating. So I think there's a lot of resources that Indu has provided. Indu, Is there anything that you would like to cover that we maybe didn't cover in enough depth or didn't cover at all that you would like the listeners to know?

31:19                                     Well, I would say to the listeners is stay curious. Don't become stagnant in your practice. Let there be space for exploration. Keep moving and keep your eyes and your ears open when you are doing a practice. Don't become too compliant and passive and also don't become too structured and robotic. Let there be that space for communication conversation. Let your practice be a dialogue, not a monologue and there is beauty that is there in these practices and it opens up layers by layers, by layers. No matter where you start. We all are going to meet in the center at this one point called Yoga. No matter which lineage what style you're coming from, it is all going to end in just one place. called yoga. Mudras you already know them. You already are them. You're just becoming a little bit more curious, inspired and looking into it. So I really hope you enjoyed this journey, this pilgrimage of knowing the self and realizing the self. And thank you so much, Stephanie, for holding this podcast and creating this space. And I really sincerely

32:40                                     hope that our conversation is beneficial for everyone.

32:44                                     Oh, I'm sure it is. And do it. So it was very instructive and, and obviously something that you've studied for a long time. So I want to thank you so much for agreeing to be on the podcast and sharing your wonderful knowledge with us.

33:02                                     My pleasure. And if you don't mind, maybe I would like to chant a mantra if that's okay. And if we have time,

33:08                                     that's fine. Go ahead.

33:11                                     Indu chanting

34:47                                     Namaste. Thank you so much.

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