0:00

Divorce rates have actually fallen, specifically in

0:02

higher educated groups, which you see the

0:04

Red Pill community saying the opposite, that

0:06

if you marry a highly educated woman,

0:08

you're doomed. People without any education are

0:10

basically much more likely to get divorced. Bachelor's

0:12

degrees are a little bit less likely. Master's

0:14

degrees are a little bit less likely. PhD,

0:16

even less likely to get divorced. Someone was

0:18

laying out basically what a lottery win

0:21

it is, if you have a

0:23

man that is at least six foot,

0:25

is making six figures, is not currently

0:27

married, and then is also attractive. It

0:30

was like 1%. Women rate

0:32

male pictures, and male just attractiveness, just a picture

0:34

like really low. So it doesn't do it for

0:36

most women just to see a picture of a

0:38

guy, even if he's a conventionally attractive guy, especially

0:40

if he's an average guy. The more profiles that

0:42

a woman views, the more likely she is to

0:44

reject it and swipe left. Traditional roles actually

0:47

aren't traditional. It was more egalitarian, like there

0:49

was more of a blend of roles and

0:51

like, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna

0:53

do that. The late modern period or the

0:56

middle ages, that sort of thing, I mean you would have

0:58

men and women just working in fields all together all day.

1:00

They're trying to convince men either A, don't

1:02

get married because it's a scam and

1:04

you get, you're gonna end up paying

1:06

alimony for the rest of your life.

1:08

She's gonna take everything, you're gonna be

1:10

homeless, but it does seem to be

1:13

a little bit dangerous to tell women

1:15

that you shouldn't have any kind of

1:17

financial contribution. You could have been spending that

1:19

time going to school, pursuing a career, getting an

1:21

education, and making your own money, but you've been

1:23

a housewife for the last 25 years. You have

1:25

no skills. There's also a very real

1:27

consequence of not being able to divorce and

1:29

that is women killing themselves or being constantly

1:32

beat or children getting beat. Hello

1:38

everybody, you are listening or watching, chatting

1:41

with Candice. I'm your host Candice Hoorback.

1:43

As always, I'm going to give you

1:45

a kind reminder to hit that like

1:47

and subscribe button so you don't miss

1:50

any episodes and it helps us with

1:52

the algorithm. This week we have Alex

1:54

Date Psych joining the podcast. He runs

1:57

some incredible polls. He has a lot

2:00

of research on relationships, attraction.

2:02

He's constantly fighting the incels

2:04

in the red pill community

2:06

which I applaud and really

2:08

think is amazing. This conversation

2:11

does not disappoint. We

2:13

get into confidence, long-lasting

2:15

love, divorce, social

2:19

constructs within relationship, breaking social

2:22

constructs. I cannot

2:24

wait for you guys to listen to this. I hope you

2:26

like it as much as I liked having it. Please

2:29

help me welcome Alex. Alexander,

2:31

welcome to the podcast. I'm so

2:33

excited to finally have you on.

2:36

By my faults alone has been really hard

2:38

to get scheduled but I

2:40

have been looking forward to this conversation for

2:42

a while. Well thank you for having me on. I've been looking

2:44

forward to it as well. So I was

2:47

just like going through your recent interview with

2:49

Chris Williamson and the timing of it I

2:51

thought was really interesting because I just started

2:53

reading this book. I don't know if you're

2:56

familiar with it. It's called The Way We

2:58

Never Were by Stephanie

3:00

Kuhn. I've never read it. No, I'm not familiar

3:02

with it. Oh my gosh. So I

3:05

was reading a couple mom books and

3:07

then they often retrieve where

3:09

they're getting their opinion or data and they'll

3:11

reference other books. Unfortunately a

3:13

lot of the spiritual mom books tend to

3:15

lean woke so you have to kind of

3:18

read it and say what's for me, what's

3:20

not for me, and they suggested this book

3:22

and I don't know why I bought it

3:25

because it's just not my typical cup

3:27

of tea. I actually almost

3:29

donated it. It's like this thick and I was

3:32

like this is probably all just gonna

3:34

be propaganda and just it's

3:36

a waste of my time. I was like you know

3:38

I'm gonna crack it open just to see a different

3:40

perspective. And one of the

3:42

things that she mentions in the book is divorce rates

3:45

and I was like oh I've

3:47

got to get into this because in the

3:49

episode that you did with Chris Williamson he

3:51

mentioned a Jeremy boring tweet which was insane.

3:54

It was basically that the

3:57

manifestation of evil often shows up in women

3:59

and women are to blame for all of

4:01

this divorce and no-fault divorce

4:03

is the Like

4:06

the crumbling of society and relationships as we know

4:08

it So according to some

4:10

research from her book, she was

4:12

saying divorce rates have actually fallen

4:15

Specifically in higher educated groups, which you

4:17

see the Redfield community saying the opposite

4:19

that if you marry a highly educated

4:21

woman You're doomed. So 70% of

4:23

people who married for the first time in 1990

4:27

we're still together for their 15th anniversary

4:29

up from 65%

4:31

in the 70s and 80s. So we hear that

4:34

divorce is running rampant and that women are

4:36

to blame So what have you seen in in

4:38

your work in your research? Oh,

4:40

yeah, absolutely. That's uh, that's correct what you

4:42

said there So I've run some statistics from

4:45

a nationally representative data set I think it

4:47

was the National Survey of Family Growth, but

4:50

I have the stats up there And yeah

4:52

exactly as you said you have

4:54

basically a linear relationship between educational

4:56

level and a lower likelihood of

4:58

divorce so People without any

5:00

education basically much more likely to get divorced

5:02

bachelor's degrees a little bit less likely Master's

5:05

degrees a little bit less likely PhD even

5:08

less likely to get divorced pretty

5:10

similar for men and women So yeah, kind of

5:12

what the Redfield says on that the

5:14

idea, you know That I'm kind of a college educated

5:17

boss. Babe is going to divorce you or something like

5:19

that. Not true at all These

5:21

are you know, that's very protective of divorce is

5:24

having an education You should probably see it as a

5:26

green flag If you know men don't pay a lot

5:28

of attention to things like that women do a little

5:30

bit more But maybe men should pay more attention because

5:32

yeah, I mean if you don't want to get divorced Selecting

5:35

someone who has a higher educational level really

5:38

good predictor of staying together there and as you said

5:40

as well Yeah divorce rates. They're a little bit down

5:43

Marriage rates are also a little bit down So

5:45

probably some of the people that would have gotten

5:47

married and then gotten divorced are not getting married

5:49

now But yeah, overall, it's not such a bleak

5:52

picture in that sense So

5:54

with marriage rates being down is that

5:56

taking into consideration that people are marrying

5:59

way later? than they used to, so late

6:01

30s, early 40s. And I

6:04

think in this book as well, it was

6:06

saying if you get married in your 50s,

6:08

which some people are doing now, which has

6:10

kind of been unheard of in the past,

6:12

that the later you get married, the even

6:14

less likely you are for divorce. So if

6:17

you are, for example, in that 50-year-old group,

6:19

it's almost not going to happen. You're pretty

6:21

much in that marriage for life. Yeah,

6:23

exactly. And that's kind of another thing, perhaps contrary to

6:25

a lot of the red pill narrative that they say,

6:28

get married really young to someone with little

6:30

experience, traditional. I mean, yeah, if you get

6:32

married in your early 20s, your divorce risk

6:34

is much higher than getting married in your

6:36

mid 30s, for example, or later in life,

6:38

like you said. So yeah, probably

6:40

people change a little bit. They're more aware

6:42

of what they want. They're more emotionally stable.

6:45

That's one thing that occurs with time when

6:47

people get older. So yeah,

6:49

getting married a little bit later

6:51

also associated with a lower likelihood

6:53

of divorce. And yeah,

6:55

so kind of different

6:57

things there to consider, contrary maybe

6:59

to that more traditional narrative. So

7:02

with women having more of a preference,

7:05

I don't know if it's just statistically

7:07

significant or not, but with women preferring

7:09

higher educated men, does that balance out

7:12

if the man, let's say, didn't go

7:14

to university but is an entrepreneur or

7:16

just more financially successful in an alternative

7:18

way, even if it's blue collar, does

7:21

that kind of like

7:23

curb that that rule that women want

7:25

and at least a partner that has

7:27

as much or more education than she has? I

7:30

mean, to some extent it would, you know, if

7:32

there's any signals of status and the idea there

7:34

is, of course, it's called hypergamy, this idea that

7:37

women would prefer to select for someone who

7:39

is whole and socioeconomic status. And

7:41

there's different kinds of status signals and status cues.

7:43

And one of the very robust status cues and

7:46

signals in Western society and really

7:48

across cultures, Dr. David Buss, he did

7:50

a really big study on this status signals

7:52

across cultures and two of the big ones that

7:54

make the top 10 list across pretty much every

7:56

culture are related to education, going to a good

7:58

school and having a college education. So I

8:01

think it can kind of balance it out, but at

8:03

the same time I think that there's

8:05

still a really robust status signal there just

8:07

from having you know a degree and So

8:10

that's something I think that people are going to want to see that I should

8:12

say the women are going to want to see is you know a man that

8:14

can kind of match them or That could be a

8:16

little bit higher across different kinds of status signals, but yeah It's

8:18

always a little bit of give-and-take so it can kind of balance

8:21

out there So do

8:23

you think when we're making these decisions

8:25

and mate selection and it's something like

8:27

you're looking for something that you don't

8:29

realize Is maybe from an evolutionary standpoint

8:31

providing certainty and protection and like

8:34

a safe partner choice Do you think that most

8:36

people are aware of this? Like

8:38

this underlying driving factor or they're just kind of

8:41

mindlessly saying like this is important to me when

8:43

they want a big six foot 200

8:45

pound man that also makes at least a hundred

8:48

thousand and went to Yale and they have this

8:50

long list that they real that It's kind of

8:52

coming from more of this Survival

8:54

standpoint that we might not necessarily need

8:56

anymore I think it's probably

8:58

a little bit of both because yeah I can

9:01

use like an example that you said like went

9:03

to Yale So obviously Yale didn't exist in an

9:05

ancestral environment So a preference for like a Yale

9:07

graduate Specifically is going to be something new and

9:09

conscious that people are aware of with a status

9:11

signal But I think that desire for status is

9:13

really rooted in our ancestral past and especially a

9:15

desire for protection of and can protect So you

9:17

said imagine, you know six two or something like

9:19

that big guy or something, you know

9:22

That signals an ability to protect as well. So those

9:24

are the kinds of things I think are

9:26

rooted unconsciously in our ancestral

9:29

past but then On

9:31

top of that we have kind of those things

9:33

manifested in a very conscious way So like six feet for

9:35

example, I want a man who six feet in Europe. It's

9:37

a little bit different It's a hundred and eighty centimeters, which

9:39

I think is about 511 or

9:42

something like that So why because six foots around

9:44

number 180 is around

9:46

number So there's kind of that idea like I

9:48

want a tall guy but like these specific rules

9:50

kind of can vary by my culture. I Forget

9:54

the statistics, but someone was laying out

9:56

basically what a lottery when it is

9:58

if you have a that

10:00

is at least six foot is making

10:03

six figures is

10:05

not currently married and then is also Attractive

10:08

it would it was like 1% it

10:10

was something abysmal and yet almost all of

10:12

these women This is their at least what

10:14

they say out loud what they want from

10:16

a partner and they come across What could

10:18

be a potential excellent match for them? But

10:20

he's 5 9 or he's 5 10

10:23

so immediately can't can't build a life

10:25

with that person and Esther

10:27

Peral is like this relationship coach that

10:29

I really really love her content and

10:32

she talks about Building a love story

10:34

versus a life story with somebody and I

10:36

see that a lot with the younger generations

10:38

It's they want this love story and she

10:40

says you can have that with almost anybody

10:43

even for a night You can have this

10:45

really epic passionate love story Even

10:47

if it's only for a couple of hours But

10:49

to build a life story with someone is a

10:51

lot more difficult and a lot more rare

10:53

So you kind of have to look

10:55

at long-term relationship? What

10:58

are you what is the goal

11:00

of that and is it always going to be fireworks

11:02

and hot passion and just like this? Just

11:06

like more Like primal attraction

11:08

versus all of the things that go

11:10

into sustaining a relationship And I think

11:12

that's where apps get a little bit

11:14

tricky because you're not taking into account

11:16

Chemistry of being in person like even

11:18

with interviews like this. For example, it's

11:21

It's always going to be second best to like if

11:23

you were sitting in the chair next to me There's

11:25

a lot that's nonverbal that's not going to be picked

11:27

up as on a screen like it would in person

11:29

So do you think that the dating

11:32

apps are having like more of a negative? like

11:35

consequence to dating or is it just

11:38

the next evolution that's That's

11:40

just gonna happen like it's out of our hands.

11:43

Yeah, I mean in a practical sense It's probably out of

11:45

our hands because it's there and it's really difficult to roll

11:48

technology back and kind of take it away But

11:50

does it have kind of a negative thing? I think it's a

11:52

little bit of both because it certainly expands the mate pool and

11:55

people who do well in dating apps Maybe

11:57

they haven't expanded make pool. They can meet people more

11:59

easily that they otherwise wouldn't have. Okay, so there's kind of

12:01

a good side, but we know at the same time the dating apps

12:03

just don't work for a lot of people. And

12:06

like you said, I think for women especially, they

12:08

miss a lot of cues that might make them attracted

12:10

to a man that they wouldn't if it's just a

12:13

picture. We know for example that women rate male

12:15

pictures and male just attractiveness just a picture like

12:17

really low. So it doesn't do it for most

12:19

women just to see a picture of a guy,

12:21

even if he's a conventionally attractive guy, especially if

12:23

he's an average guy. Just like a picture, very

12:25

often is not going to do it. We

12:28

know on dating apps as well there's a

12:30

serial swiping effect. So the more profiles that

12:32

a woman views, the more likely

12:34

she is to reject it and swipe

12:36

left. So there's kind of that overload

12:38

of choice there. So yeah, the dating

12:40

apps probably do increase selectivity and we

12:42

know you know that women have evolved to be much

12:44

more selective in mate selection than men have. So

12:47

combined those two things, yeah, I think it's really

12:49

common you know that women can go on a

12:51

dating app, have you know hundreds of potential matches

12:53

and like zero of them at all,

12:55

which you know can make them in very frustrated like why don't

12:58

I get any matches. Everyone is kind of I guess black-pilled

13:00

so to speak on these apps

13:02

at this point. But yeah, there's some

13:04

things that are good about them, some things that

13:07

are bad, but there's definitely an

13:09

effect there that I think

13:11

is very frustrating both for men and women with these

13:13

apps. So I have this friend and he's

13:15

a great guy like awesome

13:18

like just one in a million kind

13:20

of guy and just very shy, not

13:23

the type that's going to approach a woman

13:25

at a bar and he was

13:27

single for such a long time and it was so

13:29

annoying to me because I'm like you are such a

13:31

good catch like you just have to get out there.

13:33

So I finally convinced him to go on an app

13:35

and I don't know what I'm talking about because I've

13:37

never been on one of these apps so I don't

13:39

know what it's like out there but I'm like if

13:41

you can't approach women in person this is the next

13:43

best thing because then you don't have that immediate

13:47

I guess like you got like embarrassment

13:49

or like the pressure because it's there's

13:51

like a buffer between like the act

13:53

and the response. So I

13:55

hired a professional photographer to get

13:58

pictures and he was mortified. So

14:00

he thought I was gonna like dress him up

14:02

in a bow tie and like make him pose

14:04

for problems Like no, no, no look lean into

14:06

who you are. Like he's a hunter. He's like

14:09

blue collar So he got his truck we got

14:11

his bow and we just took like very candid

14:13

pictures Put them online.

14:15

He found his wife in like a week

14:18

No joke and now they're expecting their first

14:20

baby So I know there are some

14:22

really good stories and there are there are some uses

14:24

for it but it's like just don't fall into the

14:26

trap of swiping and maybe

14:29

like lower your standards a little bit like is this

14:31

person a good person is their chemistry versus trying to

14:33

take out your Tape measure and measure the guy, you

14:36

know what I mean? Like that just seems kind of

14:38

silly to me Yeah, and I mean you

14:40

said that he had professional pictures done which I think is

14:42

probably really important because If

14:44

it's just a picture the picture has to be really really

14:46

good And we know that women are very very picky with

14:48

these pictures So it's kind of like, you know, if you

14:51

swipe through a lot of profiles on apps I think especially

14:53

male profiles you will see men take a selfie in a

14:55

mirror. There's Too bad. Yeah, they're so

14:57

bad. They're too faced on the mirror and everything

14:59

and it's like With

15:01

something like that. What do you expect? You know and

15:03

I haven't seen any research actually that kind of has

15:05

control for that Like how good are these pictures because

15:08

a lot of it could just be that the pictures just are are

15:10

great to begin with Yeah,

15:13

I think it's it's kind of a double

15:15

standard for men because there's either a terrible

15:17

photo of him holding up like a dead

15:20

animal And I'm like that's know your audience

15:22

That's probably you can say that you hunt

15:24

without that being the picture or

15:27

it's a guy really trying to be sexy

15:29

And for some reason if a woman does

15:31

it it's like it's usually hot

15:33

and it's perceived Well, but if a man's trying

15:35

to be sexy like oh No, like that doesn't

15:37

work for me if there's like a lot of

15:39

obvious effort for me at least for me It's

15:41

a turnoff. Yeah, and actually it's interesting

15:43

because the animal thing I ran a survey on dating

15:46

at deal-breakers And that was it wasn't a really high

15:48

one for women, but it did make the list it

15:50

was one of the things that women don't like to

15:52

see is kind of the dead animal and Yeah,

15:55

I I don't even think that's just excluding certain

15:57

women that don't like hunting. I think it's just

16:00

that kind of picture that's like, maybe you don't want to see that

16:02

animal. Yeah, no, like, if there's

16:04

conflicting things, I'm trying to figure out if I'm

16:06

attracted to you. And there's also this dead fluffy

16:08

thing in the photo. It doesn't, it's not working

16:10

for me. So

16:12

I found this thread today when

16:14

I was just like scrolling through Twitter, and I

16:17

was talking about confidence. And it was

16:19

interesting because it said confidence is sexy

16:21

unless it's a woman. And

16:23

we're always told to be confident that

16:25

like, you know, walk into your room

16:27

shoulders back like head up direct eye

16:29

contact, at least if I can find it. And

16:33

this woman was using AI to

16:35

kind of make the argument. So she was showing

16:37

what a lot of men are generating for like

16:39

AI girlfriends and that kind of a thing. And

16:42

she says a timid pretty girl

16:44

who sexually forward because she's overwhelmed

16:46

by lust is the character

16:48

out of a male fantasy. So if

16:50

you're looking at these images of a

16:52

girl, usually it is consenting and

16:55

engaging. But there's also like a

16:58

little hint of shyness or like

17:00

timidness, trepidation, whatever. And it's that

17:02

combination that men find really attractive

17:04

and not that Victoria Secret boss

17:06

babe where she's like strutting and

17:08

like very alpha. I don't know

17:10

if you have any

17:12

research on any of that. Like if men find

17:14

the more like alpha woman attractive,

17:17

or if there has to be like a

17:19

little peppering of timid trepidation there. I

17:21

think I know the account you're talking about. I like that account

17:23

actually. Yeah, once you said the AI images,

17:25

I had an idea of who you're talking about.

17:28

But yeah, it's undead. Yeah,

17:31

undead, auto list. Okay.

17:34

Yeah, there's a, you

17:37

know, there's a lot of research that

17:39

indicates, okay, femininity is attractive to men,

17:42

both as far as physical signals of

17:44

femininity and behavior. And so, you know,

17:46

we don't associate aggressiveness, assertiveness, dominance or

17:48

anything like that with behavioral femininity. So

17:51

I think this is frustrating for

17:53

a lot of women who are more assertive, maybe

17:55

who don't necessarily want to

17:57

be a boss babe, but who do want to be

17:59

kind of an independent person. that men often just don't

18:01

really value those things as far as attractiveness is concerned

18:04

or seeking a mate. They're not

18:06

always negative traits. I think

18:08

sometimes they can be good in a female partner, but

18:11

they aren't things that tend to stand out toward men. So

18:13

we did actually run a survey on this and we looked

18:15

at self-rated masculinity

18:17

and femininity and also preferences for masculinity

18:20

and femininity in a partner. These were

18:22

correlated pretty well at point five, which

18:24

is a moderate correlation

18:26

but pretty large for what you see in

18:28

psychology that men who see themselves as more

18:30

masculine, they prefer a much more feminine woman,

18:32

when they see themselves as more feminine, similarly

18:35

prefer a much more masculine man. So you kind

18:37

of see that preference for

18:39

polarity there. Typically the more feminine

18:41

someone is, the

18:43

more they're going to prefer that masculine guy and

18:45

vice versa as well. So

18:48

if you have a woman that's more in

18:50

her masculine, she's going to want a more

18:52

submissive mate? Yeah, probably, or perhaps

18:54

a more egalitarian mate. It's hard. We

18:56

didn't look at that specifically, but well,

18:58

yeah, it would be something kind of

19:00

like that. The

19:04

less someone identifies perhaps as stereotypically masculine or

19:06

feminine, the less they're going to prefer those

19:09

roles or those behaviors or

19:11

traits in a partner. And

19:14

then what were you categorizing as

19:16

masculine or feminine? Was it like

19:18

certain attitudes or belief systems or

19:20

actions? So it was a little bit

19:22

of both. We used a traditional masculinity and femininity

19:24

scale. And we also just asked a

19:26

single question like how masculine do you see yourself? How

19:28

feminine do you see yourself? So in this scale, it

19:31

asks about like a belief in

19:33

traditional roles and a belief in

19:36

similar things, similar kind of to that traditional

19:38

roles and behaviors as well as I think

19:40

physical traits. So

19:43

the traditional roles is interesting. This was also

19:45

in that book, The Way We Never Were.

19:47

So she was arguing that traditional

19:49

roles actually aren't traditional. So that

19:52

kind of emerged in the late,

19:55

I think 19th century or I'm sorry,

19:57

early 19th century when production and services

19:59

moved out. outside of the home. And prior

20:01

to that, it was more egalitarian. Like there was

20:03

more of a blend of roles and like, I'm

20:06

going to do this and I'm going to do

20:08

that. Furthermore, there

20:11

is a theory that hunter-gatherers, right, women

20:13

have been the primary gatherers. So we

20:15

were providing something. We weren't just staying

20:17

at home with the children. We had

20:19

a responsibility to contribute to the tribe.

20:21

And in some tribes, they say that

20:23

women were also participating in the actual

20:25

hunting. So there wasn't such a clear

20:27

cut boundary between men and women and

20:29

what the rules were for the house,

20:31

because even the idea of a nuclear

20:34

family is relatively new, right? We

20:36

were more tribal for a very long time

20:38

up until industrial times and farming, etc. Absolutely.

20:41

Yeah, much of what we think of as

20:43

traditional roles, you know, within the last hundred

20:46

years or something, they come kind of coincide

20:48

with that impression of the man

20:50

works and the woman stays at home. But I

20:52

mean, for most, you know, Western history, men and

20:54

women both had to work. If you, you know,

20:56

were to look back to the late

20:58

modern period or the middle, the middle ages, that sort

21:00

of thing, I mean, you would have men and women

21:02

just working in fields all together all day. And that's

21:05

something you see in rural areas, agricultural

21:07

all around the world, that women are, you

21:09

know, farmers. A large

21:11

portion of agricultural production

21:13

is conducted by women, that sort of thing.

21:15

And similarly, like you said, in hunter-gatherers, female

21:18

hunter-gatherers are doing things all the time. There

21:21

are sex differences in hunting. When

21:23

women tend to hunt, they tend to hunt small

21:25

game or they trap with nets and that kind

21:27

of thing. Men are still kind of almost exclusively

21:29

the large game hunters. But the calorie

21:31

and food production by men and women actually very, very

21:34

similar, even if men are hunting larger game occasionally, because

21:36

yeah, women in that situation, they have to do things

21:38

all the time. If you have to survive, you have

21:40

to work and the man and the woman has to

21:42

work. And only very recently has

21:44

economic conditions in the West been good

21:47

enough, you know, that it's like one income can do it

21:49

and the other person kind of stay at home and be

21:51

domestic. Yeah. And I mean,

21:54

that is alluring, you know, especially as

21:56

a woman, I see these super, like

21:59

almost like,

22:01

characterised versions of traditional

22:03

house makers and you're

22:05

like, wow, that seems lovely. Like, she's

22:07

beautiful, her make-up is done, she's wearing

22:09

this dress and she's baking and taking

22:11

care of the kids and the chickens

22:13

and she always looks perfect,

22:16

not a hair out of place and her

22:18

husband's just out and he's just providing and

22:20

she doesn't have to worry her pretty little

22:22

head about anything. And you're like, you can

22:24

get lost in that daydream and then you

22:26

see these like, male trad accounts and they're

22:28

like, I want my wife to sit at

22:30

home and raise the chit, like, right, just

22:32

like do nothing and they're trying to convince

22:34

men either A, don't get married because it's

22:36

a scam and you get, you're going to

22:39

end up paying alimony for the rest of

22:41

your life, she's going to take everything, you're

22:43

going to be homeless. But it

22:45

does seem to be a little

22:47

bit dangerous to tell women

22:49

that you shouldn't have any kind

22:51

of financial contribution because if

22:53

something does go south, like you're at

22:55

the whims of however the divorce court plays

22:58

out and I was trying to look

23:00

up some statistics because all you really see

23:02

online is the women get

23:04

alimony forever and she'll take everything. But there was,

23:06

where, let me see if I can find it.

23:11

It was from Reuters, I think, and they said

23:14

that basically alimony almost

23:16

doesn't happen anymore because it just

23:18

seemed socially unacceptable. About

23:21

25% of the cases, there were about 25% of divorce cases

23:23

in 1960 and only 10% today and

23:28

some as low as 8%. And

23:31

since the Supreme Court ruled that it

23:33

can't be biased to one gender or

23:35

the other, that women now

23:37

have to participate and women don't want to

23:39

pay it. They almost have more of a

23:42

version to it than men, so they are

23:44

trying to do a lot of alimony reformations.

23:47

So I guess in the

23:50

studies that you've seen or polls that

23:52

you've done, who has the worst outcome

23:54

for divorce or does it seem to be pretty

23:56

fair? Yeah, I made a thread on alimony as well

23:58

and it's exactly what I was talking about. as you said, you

24:01

know, that it's not that common that people receive

24:03

alimony now. The marriage typically has to be long,

24:06

the wife has to be older and that sort of thing. And

24:08

often alimony doesn't

24:11

last all your whole life. It's

24:13

usually only for a few years at this point. So

24:15

typically what happens, and this is very consistent across the

24:17

research, is that after divorce, you know,

24:19

there's some division of assets, but women tend to

24:21

enter a period of poverty for about five years,

24:24

and then they kind of return to baseline. So

24:26

economically, women almost always do worse than

24:28

men following the divorce. And I think a lot of men

24:31

don't see it that way. And I can, you know, certainly

24:33

understand that point of view, because it's like, you

24:35

know, imagine you're in a situation, you're the one earning

24:37

all of the money, and you pay for everything and

24:39

all that. And that's the way that you see it,

24:41

even though, you know, finances are shared, your marriage technically

24:44

belongs to both people, then you get divorced, and you have

24:46

to split everything. And so of course, the perception is going

24:48

to be like, she took half of the things, but the

24:51

man is the one with the job, he's the one, you

24:53

know, that is able to just continue earning that kind of

24:55

income. Now he doesn't have a second person to provide. So

24:57

men tend to get back on their feet, really,

24:59

really fast after divorce. But imagine if you're a

25:01

woman, like we said, and

25:04

you have no other opportunity, right?

25:08

You could have been spending that time going

25:10

to school pursuing a career, getting an education,

25:13

and making your own money. But you've been a housewife for

25:15

the last 25 years, you have no skills.

25:18

You are just thrust out into the world in this

25:20

economy, right? And you're then you're

25:22

in big, big trouble. So I think a lot

25:24

of women know that and they see that and

25:26

they're postponing marriage. That's a big reason why marriage

25:29

is being postponed now. They're later in life, we

25:31

think I got to go back to school and doing all

25:33

these things because they realize like something could happen. And that's

25:35

not necessarily a dwarf that could happen. You know, you could

25:37

lose a job,

25:41

whatever. Absolutely. Yeah,

25:43

it just seems like we're getting told

25:45

one side of the story. There was

25:47

this other statistic I saw that was

25:49

really so I, again, like

25:51

I kind of was like, Oh, man, you know, I

25:53

have two boys, so I can really sympathize for like

25:55

the male perspective a lot. And maybe sometimes that's a

25:58

blind spot for me. And especially

26:00

when it came to divorce, I had someone

26:02

on the podcast like ages ago and he

26:04

was talking about how awful

26:06

the system is for men. And I'm not

26:08

saying that there aren't really horrific outcomes. Like

26:11

obviously there are, but

26:13

when it came to the passing of the no-fault

26:15

divorce, we hear that that is the reason that

26:17

we see an uptick in it. And we've kind

26:20

of covered that there is no uptick to begin

26:22

with. And basically

26:24

women are just divorcing because they're bored

26:26

or they think that they can do

26:28

better. And it kind of vilifies the

26:30

female perspective. And I found a study

26:32

that said, for the

26:35

first five years following the no-fault

26:37

adoption, they followed several states

26:40

and the rate of suicide from

26:42

wives dropped about eight to 13%. And

26:47

then the rates of domestic violence were reduced by 30%.

26:50

So that's a win, that's a

26:52

win for everyone. And it's a perspective that not

26:54

a lot of people are talking about is there

26:56

are short, there are people that

26:59

quote, fall out of love or cheat or

27:01

think that they can do better on both

27:03

sides. Like there are men and women that

27:05

are making these claims. But there's also a

27:08

very real consequence of not being able to

27:10

divorce. And that is women killing themselves or

27:12

being constantly beat or children getting beat. So

27:14

I think that I don't

27:16

want the government telling me I can't leave a contract.

27:19

That's kind of scary. So it's coming from the

27:21

side that preaches small government, but at the same

27:23

time you want the government to say who you're

27:26

in relationship with is kind of odd. Yeah,

27:29

absolutely. So yeah, it's interesting

27:31

looking at the reasons for divorce because there's a

27:34

lot of discourse in all of these spaces as

27:36

well that talk about women initiate more

27:38

divorces, which is generally true. I had a

27:40

really big review that I did on reasons

27:42

for divorce, who initiates more divorces. And so

27:45

that's something we see women initiate more divorces,

27:47

but the discourse can't just stop there because

27:49

it's like, why do women initiate more divorces?

27:52

Sometimes, if someone asks for a divorce, it's because the

27:54

other person did something. And that tends to be kind

27:56

of what we see in the literature, something we

27:58

know really robustly. across psychology is

28:00

that men engage in more anti-social behavior across

28:02

the board. So men cheat at rates about

28:05

twice as much as women do. Men are

28:07

much more likely to abuse substances. Men typically

28:09

are more likely to engage in domestic violence,

28:11

although there's some research that indicates it might

28:13

be kind of similar. I think because people

28:15

tend to select as sort of to believe

28:17

for violence. If you have a couple that's

28:19

aggressive, often they're both aggressive. But those

28:23

differences, those sex differences in basically anti-social

28:25

behavior can explain a lot of the

28:28

reasons for divorce initiation, kind of the

28:30

difference there, why we see women

28:32

initiating more, and additionally, if you

28:34

look at, beyond who initiates the divorce,

28:36

which is often measured just by asking couples who

28:38

asked for it first. If you go beyond that

28:40

and you ask, did you both

28:43

want the divorce? Then you see agreement is really,

28:45

really high. And the top reason cited for divorce

28:47

is just like, we weren't

28:49

feeling it anymore, basically. We

28:51

just weren't compatible at that point. So it's very often the

28:53

case that when it finally gets to the point of divorce,

28:56

that both people are pretty on board with it, even

28:58

if one person wanted it more or initiated it, both

29:01

people usually kind of see the cards and they

29:03

know like, this isn't working, they're ready. Is

29:06

there one sex that's having

29:08

a better post-divorce outcome romantically,

29:11

like is somewhat more fulfilled in

29:13

the next relationship or finding a

29:16

long-term relationship after divorce? So

29:18

I think the research on that's actually kind of mixed.

29:21

I think men are more likely to experience

29:24

loneliness, a few mental health problems, following the

29:26

divorce for the period of about two, three

29:29

years after. But yeah, the research

29:31

really isn't super clear on who is doing better.

29:33

I think women might tend to do a little

29:35

bit better single in general, which is kind of

29:37

supported by the research that if you look at

29:39

male and female singles, women who

29:41

are singles tend to report being happier with it. Many,

29:44

many more women who are single say I'm single by choice

29:46

and that sort of thing. So women seem to maybe need

29:48

a man a little bit less and men kind of

29:50

need a woman. So I think maybe that kind of

29:52

contributes as well. That's interesting. The

29:55

idea of leaving a relationship because you're not

29:57

feeling quote in love a

30:00

little bit like a trap, especially if it's

30:02

a committed one. I was reading, it was

30:05

Re-capture the Rapture by Jamie Weil and in

30:07

the beginning of the book he talks a

30:09

lot about like the neuroscience behind like a

30:11

couple things like mob mentality, falling in love,

30:13

that kind of thing. And it was

30:16

interesting with the neurochemistry, he

30:18

was saying that last like seven

30:20

months of where you get like this perfect

30:23

cocktail of like butterflies and excitement and just

30:25

you can't keep your hands off of each

30:27

other. It's biological, it's

30:29

not, it's probably both. It's

30:31

biological and maybe spiritual and something else but there

30:33

is a lot of biology behind it and that

30:36

shelf life is usually about seven months to a

30:38

year. So when that goes away and

30:40

then that is your like your baseline, you're like

30:42

if I don't have that then that must mean

30:44

that there's something wrong with the relationship. I think

30:46

that can set you off into a trap and

30:48

then you add the stressors that come with long-term

30:51

relationships like bills, moving, kids,

30:54

health, etc. Like the A-ballist goes on and

30:56

on so that kind of compounds

30:59

on to each other. And then

31:01

you get into the neurochemistry of emotions

31:04

and feelings and states. So if you're in

31:06

a negative place you're saying to your brain

31:08

this is what we're doing and that keeps

31:10

on repeating. So then you keep on being

31:12

agitated with your partner and keep seeing everything

31:14

from this low that you're at and you

31:16

unless you do a very conscious pattern interrupt

31:18

it's almost like you're at the whims of

31:20

chemistry at this point. So it takes a

31:22

lot of work to even be able to

31:24

recognize that like a lot of meditation to

31:26

say I'm not this these thoughts right and

31:28

say we are gonna do something different

31:30

like I feel like shit right now or I'm really

31:32

mad at you right now but I'm choosing to do something

31:34

else. Do you have like

31:37

have you seen any research or

31:39

protocols or anything

31:41

that can kind of reestablish

31:43

that bond within the relationship

31:45

like that intimacy, that connection,

31:47

that falling in love

31:49

feeling? Yeah I'm not sure if I've

31:51

seen anything that can reestablish that falling

31:53

in love feeling. But yeah

31:56

what you said is correct. Typically across

31:58

the research this is a short period,

32:00

you know, on Sternberg's triangular theory of love, a

32:02

lot of good research on this. It's typically called

32:04

passionate love or infatuation, romantic love, and it is

32:06

that feeling like you describe butterflies and all of

32:09

that. And yeah, you know, this can last, you

32:11

know, seven months. In some people it can last

32:13

their whole life. So there are individual differences here

32:15

that in some relationships with some people, they can

32:17

just continue feeling that way. It's probably a little

32:19

bit less common for some people that last, you

32:21

know, a little bit longer, three to five years,

32:24

but it does stay. And at that

32:26

point, the relationship means some kind of

32:28

bond there where people, you know, are still

32:30

kind of invested and committed. And I think a lot

32:32

of that is going to come down to a deliberate

32:35

choice. How well do

32:37

people get along together? How invested are they

32:39

with their day-to-day behaviors? Are they doing things

32:41

to reestablish and reaffirm that bond? And

32:44

I think, you know, this is kind of where the realm of

32:46

like coaching and therapy and all of that does

32:50

well. And a lot of the researchers not really

32:52

focused on this, but, you know, things like going

32:54

on regular date nights, doing things that

32:56

are romantic deliberately to kind of cultivate that. Because

32:58

even if, you know, you don't feel necessarily that

33:00

extreme passion that you did, you know, in the

33:03

first three months, you can still love

33:05

that person. You can still be very, very committed and want

33:07

to be with them. And related to that,

33:09

you know, people don't break up from long-term

33:11

relationships, marriage or not likely. They usually have to

33:14

get to a point where they feel pretty, pretty

33:16

bad. It's not just frivolous.

33:18

So maintaining that even absent, you know,

33:20

like extreme feelings of passionate love. I

33:23

think it's not that difficult if people want to,

33:26

and they're putting forth the effort to do it. So

33:29

there's this recent article

33:31

by Thomas Seager. He's

33:34

one of the founders of the Morozco Forge

33:36

Cold Plunges. And he was saying that if

33:38

you do a cold plunge with your partner

33:40

and you're making sure that you have skin-to-skin

33:43

contacts, whether it's your, you know, knees or

33:45

hands, feet, whatever, touching, and you do eye

33:47

gazing, I forget how long it was. I

33:49

want to say it's at least a few

33:52

minutes, that it can actually start to kind

33:54

of recreate some of that neurochemistry. I haven't

33:56

tried it yet because I hate being cold,

33:58

but I that that was

34:00

really interesting. And then for people that

34:02

are risk takers or really like something

34:04

that's maybe a little bit more avant-garde,

34:07

I want to say it's MAPS that's doing some of

34:09

this. But they all do

34:11

couples therapy with MDMA. And I

34:14

know some people that do that

34:16

every anniversary, so every wedding anniversary,

34:19

they'll do an MDMA ceremony

34:21

together to reconnect. And I heard

34:23

that it's very, very

34:26

helpful. There are ways

34:28

that people are trying to figure it out. Yeah.

34:31

And I mean, there's a lot of research

34:33

as well that indicates that when couples are

34:35

more in love, they do make more eye contact.

34:37

They kiss more. They touch each other

34:39

more. They cuddle more and all of that. And

34:42

we know that there's always a bidirectional effect with

34:44

behavior and feelings and psychology and all of that.

34:46

So it's kind of like research

34:49

into just making yourself smile, just a fake smile

34:51

will actually kind of boost your mood. You

34:53

can make someone smile for a minute and then

34:55

ask them how happy they are. They'll rate themselves

34:57

a little bit happier than the control group that's

35:00

not smiling. And I think things like that,

35:02

like maintaining eye contact, all of that could be

35:04

a similar effect. It's like doing

35:06

the things that you would do if you were in love

35:08

and then see. Those might actually make you feel like you're

35:10

in love again. And it doesn't hurt

35:12

to try it, right? No, 100%.

35:15

And that gets into the libido gap,

35:18

which if everyone is honest, we know

35:20

it's fair and we know it's a

35:22

fast. I think the tricky

35:24

part is A, admitting that. And for some

35:26

reason, we attack men when

35:29

it comes to the libido gap. We're like,

35:31

you're just a horn dog. All you want

35:34

is sex. Why can't

35:36

you just figure it out? Don't you dare

35:38

watch porn to get yourself your needs in

35:40

that way. And instead of

35:43

saying, well, maybe women should also

35:45

have the conversation of raising their floor

35:47

instead of men having to lower theirs.

35:49

Somehow you have to be able to

35:51

have an honest conversation that, yes, our

35:53

desires are different, but both people are

35:55

responsible for bridging that gap. It's not

35:57

just one person. And there's.

36:00

This author and she's like this powerhouse of

36:02

a woman her name's Allison Armstrong and she

36:04

really encourages women to stop vilifying men and

36:07

to lean into their feminine and She

36:10

says to women if you're having sex only

36:12

when you want to it's not enough and

36:14

Basically, you start to starve the relationship because for

36:17

men that is a vital part of connection It's

36:19

not as frivolous as just getting off. It's that

36:21

is how I feel connected to this person That's

36:23

how I feel love and bonding to this person.

36:26

So instead of like making him out to be

36:28

a dog It's like no, this is a

36:30

need a real need that he has and if

36:32

you as the woman are only Allowing

36:35

it when you want you're kind of dooming

36:37

the relationship and then that's when you I

36:39

think everything kind of steamrolls into that We're

36:42

not in love anymore. Well, when was the last time you had sex? That's

36:45

gonna absolutely play a role into like how loving

36:47

he is to you as well and it's not

36:49

out of punishment It's like the connections not there

36:52

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the libido gap one of

36:54

the most well replicated things in evolutionary psychology

36:56

It's interesting there are some people that they

36:58

kind of deny that and everything because it's

37:00

manifest across so many different things But yeah,

37:03

I think what you said was really important

37:05

that men feel connection and love through sex

37:07

that's one way that men do and I

37:09

think perhaps a lot of women don't realize

37:11

that and it's kind

37:14

of tricky to Recommend someone, you know have sex even

37:16

if you don't want to and because that you know

37:18

That could be very immersive for some women It depends

37:20

probably how they feel about their husband in that moment

37:23

If they get to the point where it's like that

37:25

grosses me out I really don't want to do that that

37:27

that is so bad for the relationship at that point It's

37:30

not in if it's just a

37:32

matter of like when that relationship is going

37:34

to end So I think maintaining sexual frequency

37:36

is really really important. Yeah again across the

37:38

research Relation satisfaction is very

37:40

closely associated with sexual frequency, you

37:42

know Again, is

37:45

that because people who are more satisfied won't

37:47

have sex more probably but again Bidirectional if you get

37:49

people to have sex a little bit more try a

37:51

little bit because some people want to have sex But

37:54

they're tired they work or something like that and not

37:56

like oh, I'm grossed out by my husband or grossed

37:58

out by my wife It's just like I

38:00

don't have time for it. I'm tired today or

38:02

whatever. They could reorganize things and prioritize that a

38:04

little bit more. They might find that that's very,

38:06

very helpful for them. Certainly, we know that sex

38:09

has an effect on bonding hormones as well. Vascular

38:11

prescient men, oxytocin in women, that sort of thing.

38:13

Cuddling after sex as well. So these are important

38:15

things that people can do to kind of maintain

38:18

that connection for both men and women. There

38:22

was this relationship coach, and I was trying to

38:24

find her name because I hate not giving credit

38:26

where it's due. If

38:28

someone wants to find it, she's one of

38:30

Layla Martin's coaches. The way

38:32

that she was describing it was, if

38:35

you have a child, if you have

38:37

a toddler, a small kid, and you're

38:40

too tired, you worked too much, you

38:42

are angry, you're whatever. They

38:45

misbehaved. Would you withhold

38:47

food from them? Would you say, you don't get to eat

38:49

today? I'm exhausted. I have too much

38:52

to do. Or,

38:54

you threw paint on the wall. You don't get to

38:56

eat today. She's like, that's what it is for men.

38:59

If you're looking at it like,

39:01

I'm too tired, whatever, try to

39:03

reframe it in your mind like that.

39:06

Then it's not something that you

39:08

just do as a delicacy. It's

39:10

not like a treat. It is

39:13

foundational. For me, that's

39:15

been really helpful to just have that

39:17

reframe. It sounds really exaggerated. I

39:20

think, again, if we are doing

39:22

an honest inventory of our relationship,

39:25

it's like the worst times of

39:27

my relationships were when there was

39:29

long periods without intimacy. Then

39:31

it just gets worse and worse and worse.

39:33

At some point, even if you don't necessarily

39:35

want to, you're not super excited. You're like,

39:38

this is needed. This is needed to reconnect.

39:40

Just making that decision without having your ego

39:42

involved in it. I

39:45

think something you said there is interesting. If people are

39:47

using sex as a punishment with holding sex, or they're

39:49

using sex as a reward, I think that's probably really

39:51

bad as well. Sex should

39:53

be something that happens because both people want to. They're putting

39:55

forth the effort. But if it's like, I'm only going to

39:57

give you sex if you do these certain things. you

40:00

did something bad so now I don't want

40:02

to have sex. You're just pulling people apart,

40:04

I think, well pulling yourselves apart in a

40:06

relationship, so to speak. Kind

40:08

of another interesting point there is

40:10

you can find a lot of relationships that

40:12

have nothing keeping them together except for sex,

40:15

which I think is a testimony to how important sex

40:17

is. A relationship can exist and

40:19

persist for a long time based almost

40:21

exclusively on sex because sex is a

40:23

really, really strong bonder. It will keep

40:25

people together even when everything else

40:27

is bad, even when it's not bad, there's no

40:29

connection, there's nothing in common,

40:31

oh but the sex is good so they're together

40:33

for many, many years until finally maybe that's not

40:35

enough. But yeah, that's probably a testimony there to

40:37

how powerful sex is as far as keeping people

40:39

together in that sense. Have

40:42

you done any polls with sex, like

40:47

sexual appetite and aging? So for

40:49

example, there's this idea that women

40:51

don't want sex or don't want

40:53

casual sex. And the study

40:55

that was referenced, the initial study that ended up

40:58

being pretty flawed based off of critics was they

41:00

went to a college campus and they asked all

41:02

the men, they had a picture of a random

41:04

girl and she was attractive, would

41:06

you take this girl home and just have casual

41:09

sex with her? Almost every man said yes. Then

41:11

they picked a random guy, good looking, gave it

41:13

to a bunch of college girls, would you have

41:15

casual sex with this random guy?

41:17

Almost all of them said no. They're like,

41:19

oh see, women don't want casual sex. Well

41:22

they're like, well of course, you have to

41:24

take into account that men are bigger, stronger,

41:26

it's a security risk. There's

41:28

a huge safety factor there. So they said if

41:31

you take a man that they know, there's

41:34

no commitment but that they know and find

41:36

attractive, almost universally all the women said, yeah,

41:38

of course I would. So there is this

41:40

idea that women, we

41:42

don't want sex, we just want to be wifed up

41:45

and that's it, we have no sexual desires, but

41:47

the study actually showed the opposite. It's as long

41:49

as there is trust and safety that casual sex

41:51

is on the table for women. Yeah,

41:54

the picture thing is interesting. So that's part of a

41:56

line of research that began in the 80s by a

41:58

couple of researchers named Clark and... Hatfield and in the

42:00

original study they had attractive men and women just go on

42:02

to campus and ask people like hey will you come home

42:04

with me at night and yeah men

42:07

being approached by a woman you know most of

42:09

them said yeah sure and zero of

42:11

the women did and there's something that's been replicated over and

42:14

over but yeah like you said variations of this experiment if

42:16

you ask the women you know if there

42:19

was a variation said you know I have a friend I

42:21

really trust him he's very attractive would you go at home

42:23

with him more women say yes at that point if it's

42:25

an attractive friend or someone that they know more

42:27

say yes so there's an element there that's like

42:29

you said fear security if a woman feels secure

42:31

she's more likely to do it and if a

42:33

woman knows the person that she trusts him perhaps

42:35

if there's already some kind of bond there someone

42:37

that he already likes so those can

42:39

kind of increase it there there's still other research

42:41

that indicates yeah women probably like casual sex less

42:44

typically across the whole libido gap that makes sense

42:46

there's the orgasm gap as well you know in

42:49

casual sexual encounters very few women actually experience

42:51

an orgasm the more they think that person

42:53

the more orgasm frequency increases to the point

42:55

they get into a committed relationship and that

42:57

tends to be where women report the

43:00

highest sexual satisfaction having more orgasms and everything

43:02

so there's a question as well as to

43:04

what extent casual sexual

43:06

encounters are intended to be one-night stands

43:08

or one-off for women or to what

43:10

extent women would date those people and be like okay

43:12

so casual sex for a lot of people is you

43:15

know an entry to a relationship it starts out is

43:17

like okay we've been on two dates we're having sex

43:19

but I would keep seeing that person I would keep

43:21

dating them maybe I want something more at that point

43:24

mm-hmm so um I

43:27

guess sexual attractiveness there's this idea especially in

43:29

the red pill community that once you are

43:31

past the age of 25 you are

43:34

no longer desirable your worth as a

43:36

woman is completely gone there is no

43:38

value to be inherited but then you

43:41

look at porn and I

43:43

mean that says a lot about what people

43:45

are consuming and milf porn is always what

43:48

number one or number two as far as

43:50

the most consumed viewed content there's

43:53

also this argument made in this one's by Layla

43:55

Martin and she talks about the idea of the

43:57

40 year old plus

43:59

woman not being sexual

44:02

is actually such a myth because

44:04

that in like historically speaking especially

44:06

before Contraceptive that was the only

44:08

woman that could have consequence free

44:10

sex She was the only one

44:13

that had the freedom to have sex purely

44:15

for pleasure without the risk of pregnancy. So

44:19

it's interesting because I haven't heard it talked

44:21

about that way, but they obviously like there's

44:23

a a Contradicting

44:25

opinion on that. So do you think

44:27

that? Like most

44:29

men find women unattractive after a certain point

44:32

like obviously it's going to dwindle like there's

44:34

an 80 year old That's gonna be super

44:36

super rare that anyone wants to be attracted

44:38

to that. But what is that kind of

44:40

bell curve look like? Sure

44:42

So if you ask men to rate pictures of women and

44:44

this has been done across a few studies or if you

44:46

just ask men To report like what is their ideal age

44:48

gap? I did a survey on this just recently I think

44:51

it was last week then yeah, you

44:53

see men, you know kind of picking women in their

44:55

mid-20s and something like that But I

44:57

think what happens is people take this is like an

44:59

average in the say, okay Here's an average age preference

45:01

and then they tend to apply that to everyone and

45:03

you know That's something called the ecological fallacy the idea

45:05

that you can take an average of a group and

45:07

then apply it to individuals at the end Of the

45:10

day, we like attractive people, you know So someone who's

45:12

not attractive at 25 is not going to be

45:14

attractive at 25 someone

45:16

who is still attractive in their mid 30s You know, she's

45:18

a hot woman in 30s. She's gonna be

45:20

a hot woman to everyone else men are not gonna

45:22

You know, she's not gonna have a problem finding a

45:24

guy. So it's very individual in that sense Yeah, you

45:26

know you can compare groups and say okay women on

45:29

average are more attractive at 25 and 35, but whatever

45:32

We're not averages, you know every

45:34

individual is very different, you know attractiveness varies

45:36

a lot some people, you know And I

45:38

think you know if people are very unattractive

45:40

in their 20s, they're gonna struggle in their

45:42

20s They're gonna struggle up through their 30s

45:44

if someone is really hot in their 20s and they

45:46

maintain themselves into their 30s They're not gonna struggle at

45:49

any point really No, I mean

45:51

like look at Giselle who's in her 40s or JLo

45:53

who I think is like 53 now She

45:56

they age has nothing to

45:58

do with it. Absolutely nothing in

46:01

certain examples like those and everyone's gonna say

46:03

they're outliers they're outliers well they exist they're

46:05

real living breathing people so you're gonna tell

46:07

me that anyone is gonna see JLo walk

46:09

into her I'm like ew she's 50 get

46:11

her away from me like people be clawing

46:13

to get close to her so yeah I

46:15

think like strictly putting someone's value at like

46:17

an age or I don't know it just

46:19

it makes no sense to me like there's

46:21

beautiful women that remains like beautiful

46:24

for a very freakishly long time it's

46:26

not necessarily cut off at a certain thing and you don't

46:28

just turn to dust yeah and both

46:31

stated and revealed partner preferences which means what

46:33

men and women say they want as far

46:35

as age goes and what they actually pick

46:37

they're pretty small and they're very

46:39

close to two so you know most people end up with

46:41

people who are close to their own age so you know

46:44

you kind of in the red pill you also have that

46:46

discourse like oh men are at their highest value at 38

46:48

and it's like oh yeah then why aren't 38 year old

46:50

men dating women who are 22 right women who are 22

46:52

don't want men who are

46:55

38 they want men who are very close to their

46:57

own age so people are picking partners close to their

46:59

own age regardless of what they say you know like

47:01

oh a woman you know 22 is the hottest or

47:03

whatever yeah I mean you can say that

47:05

you know until you're blue in the face but at the end of the

47:07

day you're probably gonna date someone in your

47:10

own environment who's close to your own age

47:12

mm-hmm and that's probably the healthiest outcome or

47:14

like has the most successful outcome too like if you

47:16

see those really big gaps they tend to think that

47:18

those are a lot more temporary

47:20

if you see a 20 year old with a

47:22

60 year old for example that's they have an

47:25

arrangement and that arrangement is probably temporary yeah

47:27

if you see huge gaps then you start

47:29

to wonder about that called the beauty status

47:31

exchange they're like what kind of exchange is

47:33

going on typically you know research

47:35

on age gap shows that like they're not a lot

47:38

different from other relationships but if you do see something

47:40

like that where it's like someone who's 60 and someone

47:42

who's 20 you know then you kind of wonder like

47:44

yeah there probably is something going on there that's not

47:46

like mutual attraction no and

47:48

I mean as long as it's all agreed upon

47:51

I have no issue with it right like do

47:53

your thing to both of them and it's funny

47:55

because that everyone will you know demonize probably the

47:57

girl mostly like gold digger but he's also using

47:59

something He's using something that's way more

48:01

valuable than money, which is time, especially

48:04

if she wants kids eventually. So there's an agreement, and

48:06

as long as both parties agree, do your thing, right?

48:08

Like, I don't care. I hope you're both having fun.

48:12

Yeah. Yeah, and it's interesting, kind of the

48:14

use of time. I think a lot of people haven't

48:16

thought about that, but I think there's an author whose

48:18

name is Mike or Mark Regineris who talks about that.

48:21

You know, kind of these large age gaps can

48:23

kind of monopolize women in their youngest

48:26

years, and then if they break up, it's like, well, maybe

48:28

they missed an opportunity to date someone who was more committed

48:30

to them, who they were more attracted to close to

48:32

their own age in that sense. Yeah,

48:35

that's definitely something to take into account, like

48:37

into very serious account. So

48:40

speaking of breaking social contracts, I

48:42

loved your thread when there

48:44

was someone who was just like,

48:47

vile and hate, like hating. It

48:50

was like they had like four

48:52

different pictures of adult actresses or

48:54

only fans girls that then they

48:57

committed the sin of falling in love

48:59

and getting married and having a family.

49:01

And this pisses people off more than

49:03

almost anything on the internet, where they

49:06

can justify like really vile comments to

49:08

either like the women or even their

49:10

children slash babies, which is bananas.

49:14

What about this? It's like you don't

49:16

want us to be a whore. And

49:19

then once we're a whore, you can't

49:21

be anything but a whore again.

49:23

If you say you're doing something else, well, no,

49:26

you have to go do this one thing because

49:28

you committed to it. You're not

49:30

allowed to evolve as a person and you're

49:32

not allowed to have a change of mind

49:34

or lifestyle or values or whatever. That's

49:37

what we should want from everyone is constant

49:39

growth, constant evaluation. Who I am now, I

49:41

hope is not who I was 10 years

49:43

ago. That would be a

49:46

travesty. I want to grow constantly be

49:48

growing and self-evaluating. So you get punished

49:50

for doing the thing that they wanted

49:52

you to do from the beginning. Like

49:54

what is that about? Yeah, it's probably because

49:56

that punishment is intended to be a threat

49:58

to prevent that behavior. in the first

50:01

place. So there's an element of punishment there and

50:03

kind of a revenge fantasy there. So

50:05

a lot of these social

50:08

restrictions on promiscuity are intended to prevent

50:10

that behavior and to kind of regulate the

50:12

sexual marketplace. So when people see that those aren't working,

50:14

I think they get upset. And I think for a

50:16

lot of men on a very personal level it's a

50:19

revenge fantasy. So it's kind of like, okay, very

50:21

promiscuous women, the idea is like,

50:23

okay, you can be promiscuous, but no one's going to love

50:25

you. No one's going to want to be with you. And

50:27

then they see these women who are very promiscuous, they're not

50:30

going to want to be promiscuous. They're conventionally attractive, they get

50:32

to their mid-30s and then they marry and they settle down

50:34

and it just kind of goes

50:36

entirely contrary to that revenge fantasy. So they hate

50:38

it. And it's like, I think this is related

50:40

again to kind of what we said about attractiveness.

50:42

It's like at the end of the day, these

50:45

are very famous people, they're conventionally attractive. They're not

50:47

going to have trouble finding someone, you know, and

50:49

probably someone that they like who then, you know,

50:51

a guy who probably is also similar in attractiveness

50:53

to them, regardless of what they

50:55

have done. You know, these guys that are upset

50:57

about it, they don't have to date that porn

51:00

actress, she wouldn't date them anyway. So it's kind

51:02

of like, it's neither here nor there. But yeah,

51:04

the idea that they're going to, you know, have

51:06

a lot of trouble finding a mate or something

51:08

because of this history, it doesn't seem to be

51:10

the case, especially for, you know, these very famous

51:12

kind of porn actresses, they're going to find someone.

51:14

Yeah. Yeah. And it goes

51:16

against the narrative, like this massive emphasis on

51:19

body count. And I mean, even before internet

51:21

was huge, or social media was huge, that

51:23

was always kind of a conversation. But there

51:25

was always a very different kind of person

51:27

that asks how many people you've been with.

51:29

It comes often in my experience from like

51:32

an immense amount of insecurity, because you're trying

51:34

to like measure yourself up to whoever else

51:36

that other person was with, whether I was

51:38

asking a guy, that was always at my

51:40

lowest point. That was when I was, you

51:42

know, 18, 19, 20. And I

51:45

cared a lot because I was like, I, how

51:47

am I going to compare to her? What does she

51:49

look like? How like, was she more fun? Like, do

51:51

you like her more? It was all like this very

51:53

neurotic, like insecurity. And

51:56

I think it's the same with men too. It's

51:58

just more of like this like territorial thing. Like

52:00

that is mine. And then you

52:02

have people believe it or not that

52:04

have a different perspective a more I

52:06

would say like evolved perspective about like

52:08

what is relationship and what What

52:11

is this person is like this a good fit

52:13

for me? Is she gonna be a good

52:15

mother good wife? Like is she the same

52:17

person that was making those decisions however long

52:19

ago? and I think some people are approaching

52:22

it with nuance and The

52:24

Riley example was really great because people really go

52:26

after her Candace Owens has gone after her a

52:28

couple times and She's

52:30

obviously beautiful. She's obviously

52:32

extremely successful financially. Her

52:34

husband is also extremely

52:37

good-looking and Financially

52:39

successful. I think he's like a professional stuntman

52:41

and like she has a beautiful baby Like

52:43

there is nothing to get mad at unless

52:46

you're just jealous that you don't have those

52:48

things and they you know Say things about

52:50

him like he's a simp you

52:52

go on his profile for two seconds. Like

52:54

that is a man's man He's doing like

52:56

80 backflips off of a building. Like you

52:59

there's nothing to kind of criticize there

53:01

So to me it says like yes

53:03

for some people body count is absolutely going to matter

53:05

and they are going to have deal-breakers But for other

53:07

people they look at it from a different perspective It's

53:09

like well, what are the conditions of the relationship now?

53:11

Is she going to be faithful now? Is

53:14

she right? What are the expectations of

53:16

the relationship? Are we going to be

53:18

monogamous monogamous Polly? Whatever like these are

53:20

conversations people are having and they're not

53:22

emotionally attached to the past like there's no

53:24

retroactive Jealousy they're just kind of looking at the

53:26

relationship from a futuristic standpoint, which

53:29

to me seems a lot healthier. Yeah

53:31

Yeah, I've done a little bit on body counts. Well,

53:33

yeah, just like you called it at the end I

53:35

was gonna say that's called retroactive jealousy. That's exactly People

53:37

compare themselves to past partners and and what I

53:40

found when I did the body count research I

53:42

was looking at you know What kind of men

53:44

prefer virgins and it was men who were younger

53:46

a little bit lower and make value themselves Men

53:48

who had fewer sexual partners themselves. So these are

53:50

probably gonna be men who are a little bit

53:53

more insecure about it I asked, you know men

53:55

and women both like do you even ask about

53:57

half of men women? They don't even ask so

54:00

So, it doesn't seem to be the case

54:02

that a lot of people care. Some people care. Some

54:04

people care more. There is a

54:06

body count preference for people who do ask,

54:09

which is typically a little bit lower. But

54:11

at the same time, the body count deal

54:13

breaker tends to be really, really high as

54:15

well. So, looking at something like that,

54:18

it doesn't seem to be something that most people are

54:21

really, really rejecting partners for. And

54:24

the men who seem to care the most about it

54:26

are probably the men who are going to be a

54:28

little bit more insecure about that, right? Because

54:31

security as a man comes with increasing

54:33

value, whatever that may be to some

54:35

extent, which also comes with age. Men

54:38

who accumulate more sexual partners, they care less and

54:40

less about body counts as well. So it's kind

54:42

of like, yeah, men get to that point and

54:44

it's like, well, I've had sex with a lot

54:47

of people. Am I going to worry about

54:49

it that much? Those men probably not. Oh, that's interesting.

54:52

I would expect the opposite because that's,

54:54

again, maybe it's just my feed and

54:56

the algorithm is just giving me a

54:58

whole bunch of just bad takes. But

55:00

it's these men that are saying that

55:02

they can kind of devour whatever they

55:04

want, but the

55:06

woman is supposed to be virginal, like constantly

55:08

virginal. She's never allowed to be the Madonna

55:10

unless it's with him and that's it. And

55:13

to me, I'm like, that's not fair at all. I

55:15

don't understand that justification. If it's even, then

55:18

sure, that makes sense. But if you have

55:20

one person that thinks sexual promiscuity is okay

55:22

on one end and not the other, to

55:25

me, that's like mental gymnastics. Yeah.

55:27

And in my research and in past research

55:29

that I didn't do, many women view

55:31

promiscuity in a mate kind of similarly. Men and

55:33

women both view it negatively. So there

55:36

is kind of that discourse out there

55:38

that men say, oh, a

55:41

key that can open any lock is a master key, a lock

55:43

that can get opened by any keys, it should be locked. That

55:45

kind of a thing. Men seem to think that

55:48

women are going to view high promiscuity

55:50

in men positively, but women

55:52

don't. They don't think that women do it about as negatively in

55:54

men as men do it in women. But men

55:56

do high promiscuity in other men really

55:59

positively. It's like this. really, really robust

56:01

status cue that men signal to other men. It's like, I

56:03

can get a lot of women. I've had sex with a

56:06

lot of women. And we know that men lie about this

56:08

a lot, that men exaggerate their count a lot. And I

56:10

think that's something as well that we see. And

56:12

a lot of this online discourse, women are like, I

56:14

can just run through a bunch of women, but she

56:16

has to be a virgin. The men saying that probably

56:18

are not men that are, you know, having a lot

56:21

of sex, we all partners. We know that those are

56:23

the men that care less, right? Those are probably men

56:25

that have, you know, kind of that double

56:27

standard, but that are probably not acting out

56:29

that double standard. You know, they're probably low

56:31

body count, low success

56:33

with women themselves, because we know, you know, higher

56:35

body count. Higher success with women

56:37

is associated with more open attitudes toward

56:39

promiscuity. Men who benefit, you know, from

56:41

promiscuous environments, tend to be more supportive

56:43

of it. They tend to care less

56:45

about those sorts of things. Yeah.

56:48

And what's interesting, do you follow Ayla at all?

56:51

Yeah. So she did a study, and I don't

56:54

have the numbers off the top of my head,

56:56

but she does some really like out there studies,

56:58

and she has a huge sample size for most

57:00

of her polls. So one of

57:02

them was talking about conventional sexuality

57:05

and relationships and expectations and kind

57:07

of monogamy and then everything other

57:10

than, and there's this idea that

57:13

it's just debauchery and, you

57:15

know, well-to-do respectful people are

57:18

always monogamous. And in her poll, it was actually kind

57:20

of the opposite. It was the more successful you were,

57:22

like if you were in the top 1% of earners,

57:24

for example, that

57:27

you would be more likely to

57:29

have some kind of atypical sexual

57:31

relationship. So these people are swinging,

57:34

they're going to orgy parties, they

57:36

might be poly, they might be

57:38

monogamish, but there's the highest concentration

57:41

of like atypical relationships, the more

57:43

successful or artistic that a person is,

57:46

which kind of goes against the narrative

57:48

that, you know, these people, there's something

57:50

wrong, that they are mindless consumers, which

57:52

is, I guess, kind of the origin of

57:54

the word horror. So even from like a

57:57

theological standpoint, it didn't have to do with

57:59

sex. Like that's just

58:01

the more visceral visualization

58:05

that we can have and it really engages people.

58:08

So we use sex a lot when we

58:10

use the word whore but whore was actually

58:12

a consumer. It was like a mindless consumer

58:14

that isn't contributing. Like you're not providing any

58:16

value. You're just take, take, taking until you're

58:18

full and then you start taking

58:21

again. So there's this

58:23

idea that you're reckless and

58:25

you have basically no

58:27

control over your wants and

58:29

desires, which is, I guess

58:31

based off that poll, like it raises some questions

58:33

because I think that to be in the top

58:35

1% of successful people,

58:37

it doesn't mean you're a good person.

58:40

I'm definitely not saying that, but it

58:42

does say that you have some kind

58:44

of internal locus to control. You do

58:46

have reservations, you are calculated. Like you're

58:49

not necessarily like risk takers not

58:51

the word I'm looking for, but well,

58:54

maybe like you're not reckless. Yeah,

58:57

it could be risk takers. Yeah, I mean, associated

58:59

with risk taking, yeah, that's associated with entrepreneurship and

59:01

success as well. You tend

59:03

to see higher risk taking behavior and people who

59:05

are highly successful and also people who are very

59:08

unsuccessful criminals and that sort of thing. So it

59:10

can kind of go either way. But yeah, I

59:12

would think, you know, high openness would be something

59:14

associated with that seeking novelty and perhaps also just

59:16

having the ability to do it, right?

59:18

The ability to experiment more and all of

59:20

that, more time perhaps. More

59:22

time, yeah, that's interesting. And it's funny because

59:24

I'm not gonna say names, but there are

59:26

plenty of people that are on the right

59:28

side of politics that I know. They

59:32

are not what you think that they are.

59:34

You know what I mean? It's just not

59:36

as socially acceptable. So they very much present

59:38

a more traditional lifestyle or relationship and it

59:41

is not always what it seems, folks. Yeah,

59:44

it's out there, all of the fetishes. I

59:46

remember there was some other research that indicated,

59:48

okay, fetishes, we tend to see them in

59:51

higher classes and also in lower classes. So

59:53

it's kind of a U-shaped curve there. And

59:55

I'm not sure why that is, except again,

59:58

it could come down to novelty seeking. and

1:00:00

risk behavior and all of that. So that might be

1:00:02

kind of why that exists. Whereas

1:00:05

people who are much, much more conventional, perhaps

1:00:07

they're less likely to excel at things, but

1:00:09

they're also more likely to kind

1:00:11

of a middle of the road as far as their

1:00:13

own personal social behavior as well. Well,

1:00:17

to pivot, because I know we are

1:00:19

coming up on time, there was one

1:00:21

poll that you reposted and I saw

1:00:23

it kind of going viral on TikTok

1:00:26

and I wanted to get your opinion

1:00:28

on it. And it was the

1:00:31

University of New South Wales and

1:00:34

it was looking at child predators. And this

1:00:36

was alarming. So it was one

1:00:38

in six that reported having sexual

1:00:41

feelings towards children. One

1:00:43

in 10 Australian men have sexually

1:00:45

abused a child. One in 15

1:00:47

reported that they would have sexual interactions

1:00:50

with a child under 14, if no

1:00:52

one would find out. And the men

1:00:54

that have done this reporting of

1:00:57

having these feelings or acting on them were

1:01:00

more likely to be married, be high income

1:01:02

and work with children. So what

1:01:04

is happening in Australia? Is

1:01:06

this, I mean, this

1:01:09

is all like self-reported. Is this isolated

1:01:11

to there? Like what

1:01:13

is happening? Cause that is terrifying as a mother.

1:01:16

Yeah, it was pretty alarming. So

1:01:18

this was one of the largest studies done to

1:01:20

date on this. Also a nationally representative survey. So

1:01:22

it gives us kind of a good picture of,

1:01:24

you know, the actual demographics in Australia. Some people

1:01:26

criticized this because they said, oh, well this could

1:01:29

be counting people who are 18, like

1:01:31

someone who's 17. But even excluding that,

1:01:33

you know, we see these statistics that are very

1:01:35

alarming, like would do something sexual with a

1:01:37

child who's 10 to 12 in this, you know, 5%. Would

1:01:40

do something with a child who's 12 to 14. Again,

1:01:42

5% in this. So these are

1:01:44

very large percentages of men that are just

1:01:47

admitting, you know, and when you have something like

1:01:49

this where it's an admission, the actual numbers are

1:01:51

probably higher as well, you know, because of that

1:01:53

social desirability bias. Some people are not going to

1:01:55

want to admit that even on this survey. So

1:01:58

yeah, I mean. this apparently is

1:02:01

pretty common and I think a lot of people don't

1:02:03

realize the extent to which a lot of people harbor

1:02:05

kind of a dark sexuality within

1:02:07

them in that sense and have

1:02:09

these these really you know disturbing

1:02:11

desires and all of that I'm not

1:02:13

sure you know what more can

1:02:16

be said about that except that yeah it is very

1:02:18

alarming in that sense that that seems to be so

1:02:20

high. Well I guess do you

1:02:22

think that there's an uptick in it or

1:02:24

do you think that we just now have

1:02:26

the resources that we're doing polls that we're

1:02:28

finding these numbers like a ballpark

1:02:31

figure is it is

1:02:33

it um like is it new or has

1:02:35

this kind of always existed at this rate?

1:02:38

Yeah I would well we can't know for sure with

1:02:40

with the polls because obviously that's going to be something

1:02:42

new I don't personally I

1:02:44

would be surprised if it's an uptick I would think

1:02:46

even you know in

1:02:49

modern history right now you know we really suppress

1:02:51

these things this you know sex with children and

1:02:53

all of that if you look at someplace like

1:02:56

Afghanistan and you see what happens in social conditions

1:02:58

where people are allowed to marry

1:03:00

children people do it you know there's a lot of men

1:03:02

who are like okay I'll do it then so

1:03:04

you know we're we're in a pretty good

1:03:06

spot in western society that we teach people

1:03:09

you know from a very young age like

1:03:11

you can't do that and that's something that

1:03:13

does shape sexuality and sexual expression we know

1:03:15

like this is very very inappropriate you know

1:03:17

that will actually shape people's desires down the

1:03:19

road you know in other environments where you

1:03:21

know if you were to just let people

1:03:23

do whatever they want would we see this

1:03:25

expressed much more yeah unfortunately probably we would.

1:03:28

Well yeah that is terrifying because

1:03:30

it's like some people

1:03:32

have this narrative that uh like it's

1:03:34

kind of like a boogeyman that this

1:03:36

this doesn't actually exist and then there's

1:03:38

people on the other side

1:03:41

which it's like if you're if

1:03:44

you're gay then automatically you're a predator which

1:03:46

we know is is nonsense and

1:03:48

Ayla did a recent study and again when we talk

1:03:50

about the polls that she does and they are out

1:03:53

there she did one on pedophiles

1:03:55

so she had over 10,000 self-reported

1:03:57

pedophiles take a poll which is

1:04:00

I would assume probably one of the largest, if

1:04:02

not the largest ever done. And

1:04:06

it's, where, where were they going

1:04:08

with that? Shoot, I just lost it. Um,

1:04:12

I hate when that

1:04:14

happens. Oh,

1:04:19

uh, basically that the, the

1:04:21

most likely to offend. So going back

1:04:23

to like automatically thinking that some, because

1:04:25

someone's gay, that they're going to harm

1:04:27

a child, like is nonsense and that's

1:04:29

really antiquated, um, like

1:04:32

thought pattern. But the most likely

1:04:34

to offend was actually someone that

1:04:36

reports themselves being non-binary. And

1:04:38

I found that to be obvious. It

1:04:41

was like, that seems right to me

1:04:43

because, Hey, I don't really think it's

1:04:45

a thing. I think that it's like narcissism

1:04:47

with a different name. And I

1:04:50

think if you're in a position where you're

1:04:52

going by that and you're really being forceful

1:04:54

to get into certain spaces, like to me,

1:04:56

that's a red flag. But I think what,

1:04:58

where we get into trouble is you have,

1:05:00

um, certain accounts that like

1:05:02

are really demonizing anyone that is living

1:05:05

an alternative lifestyle and blanketly saying like

1:05:07

groomer, groomer, groomer. Well, if you call

1:05:09

everyone a groomer, now you don't actually

1:05:11

recognize when it's actually happening. So I

1:05:13

think we have to have polls like

1:05:15

this to see like, yes, it's real,

1:05:18

but no, it's not everybody. And,

1:05:20

um, I'm really looking forward

1:05:22

to the results of that poll. Cause I think

1:05:24

it could be really preventative. Like hopefully it can

1:05:26

help save, um, a lot of children

1:05:29

from being harmed, but it's like,

1:05:31

what do you do with this group of people

1:05:33

now? Right? It's not everyone that has these attractions

1:05:35

or acting on it. Is

1:05:37

it, are they born that way? Is it trauma

1:05:39

based? Is it a mix? I think

1:05:41

when I talked to her recently, she was saying it's kind of 50

1:05:44

50. So about 50%, it

1:05:46

is like an immense trauma that they

1:05:48

had. And then they're kind of replicating

1:05:50

that. And then another, it's just, that's how

1:05:53

they came in, which is. Even

1:05:55

more disturbing and you'd like, don't want to believe that

1:05:57

because then it feels like there's less control over. it.

1:06:00

There's less that we can do as a

1:06:02

society to protect the children. Yeah,

1:06:05

it probably is 50-50. So that's a

1:06:07

very broad rule across behavioral genetics, personality

1:06:09

psychology, the 50-0-50 rule. But about 50%

1:06:11

of personality, which includes sexuality and

1:06:15

all of that, is heritable. So yeah, there probably

1:06:17

is some of it that is people are born

1:06:19

that way. And that is disturbing

1:06:21

because that's not an

1:06:24

excuse for highly antisocial behavior. This

1:06:26

applies to antisocial behavior across the

1:06:28

board, like crime, antisocial personality disorder,

1:06:30

that sort of thing. So you have people that

1:06:33

are born with these extreme pedophilias.

1:06:36

They're essentially dangerous. We know that

1:06:38

pedophilia is basically untreatable. You don't

1:06:40

cure these people either. So then

1:06:42

you're left with a question.

1:06:44

What do we do with these people? They report that

1:06:46

they have these feelings. Some of them don't act on

1:06:49

it, but they could. Some of them

1:06:51

are, and they're really, really highly likely to

1:06:53

re-offend. Pedophiles are really highly likely to re-offend

1:06:55

as well. So we're really

1:06:57

in a tricky position. How do you deal with these

1:07:00

people? Lock them away forever. They've

1:07:02

experimented with drugs that lower their libido

1:07:04

a lot. But I mean, yeah,

1:07:07

it's a difficult situation.

1:07:09

What is to be done in that sense? So

1:07:12

they did used to do the chemical castration,

1:07:14

and that doesn't work, right? I don't

1:07:16

recall if that works or not. I don't

1:07:19

know for sure. I think it's still used in some

1:07:21

places. I'm not sure where, and I'm not sure how.

1:07:23

I think Florida. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah, I

1:07:25

think maybe outside of the United States as well. I'm

1:07:28

not sure how effective it is. It seems like if

1:07:30

you could just completely knock someone's libido out, it has

1:07:32

to have some effectiveness there, but

1:07:34

I don't know the extent of it. Yeah,

1:07:37

I don't either. Yeah, it's

1:07:39

one of the darkest disorders

1:07:43

or acts, at

1:07:45

least as a mother. It's like, well, you

1:07:47

want an answer. You're like, well, what do

1:07:49

we do? And then you also don't want

1:07:51

it to be like minority report where someone

1:07:53

hasn't done something and then you have preemptive

1:07:55

jail. That doesn't seem right either. So yeah,

1:07:58

it's really tricky. So I, again, I don't know. I look forward

1:08:00

to her research coming out on that and I know

1:08:02

people say that she's not a researcher Well, she has

1:08:04

a lot of information and she's very rigorous with her

1:08:07

results I think she is not

1:08:09

scared to ask really really Outlying

1:08:13

questions Yeah,

1:08:15

I think I think there's a future for research like

1:08:17

that independent researchers doing things like that because a lot

1:08:19

of those questions They're not going to get

1:08:21

published You might not even be allowed to ask them if

1:08:23

you try to run them through an institutional review board it

1:08:25

through a university or something So, you know, there's a lot

1:08:27

of questions that are sensitive that they won't even let you

1:08:30

ask at this point So people like a lot of doing

1:08:32

this is really really important something you

1:08:34

mentioned as well That was interesting. So like

1:08:36

non-binary people are more likely to have this

1:08:38

shirt So we see that paraphilias cluster together,

1:08:40

you know There's someone has one kind of

1:08:42

fetish they're more likely to have other kind

1:08:44

of fetishes if someone you know Has some

1:08:46

kind of paraphilia like like pedophilia then they're

1:08:48

more likely to have others as well It's

1:08:50

not a one-one correlation. So certainly you can't just

1:08:52

look at everyone who's mine non-binary Like

1:08:55

you said like rumor rumor rumor You

1:08:57

know, but those things do kind of cluster together.

1:08:59

So it's kind of like yeah You want to

1:09:01

be aware of that perhaps without stigmatizing every single

1:09:04

person and yeah, it just makes

1:09:06

it a very complex situation altogether Yeah,

1:09:08

and ironically she said that trans Women

1:09:12

were the least likely to be

1:09:14

a pedophile out of like all of the

1:09:16

groups and that again goes against a lot

1:09:18

of those Anti-groomer accounts because they kind of

1:09:21

single single focus on the trans stuff But

1:09:24

according to her poll they were the least likely to offend

1:09:26

a child and I was like, well, that's interesting And again,

1:09:29

it speaks to the value of these polls

1:09:31

because it can have a really uncomfortable conversation

1:09:33

based off of actual data So

1:09:35

it really opens a lot of dialogue that maybe

1:09:37

wouldn't be open Regardless, and I

1:09:39

think one of the polls she did was talking about

1:09:43

like the difference in the expectation of Social

1:09:46

the I guess like the social tolerance when

1:09:48

it came to the gender of the victim

1:09:50

So if it was a boy, it was

1:09:53

it's okay Like if it was a woman

1:09:55

predator and a boy, it's like it's fine

1:09:57

if it was a male and a

1:10:00

girl no-no and if it was a

1:10:02

male and a male like whoa that seemed to be the

1:10:05

worst one but I guess wouldn't

1:10:07

there wouldn't the harm be kind of

1:10:09

the same for like the

1:10:12

gender of the victim like if it was a girl or a

1:10:14

boy like why do we have this

1:10:16

idea that boys aren't going to be traumatized from

1:10:18

a sexual predator just because it's a woman yeah

1:10:21

and I mean a lot of men will say that

1:10:23

when you hear you know

1:10:25

something like a teacher had sex with a student who's

1:10:27

like a 16 year old boy you will see in

1:10:29

the comments a bunch of men that are just like

1:10:31

nice so so you know that's an experience a lot

1:10:33

of men have they think if I was 16 and

1:10:35

that happened it wouldn't bother me and there's research on

1:10:37

that as well that has looked at boys

1:10:40

you know teens between 15 to 17 or so and girls at

1:10:44

that age that have had sex with an adult and

1:10:46

the women do report like this was much more damaging

1:10:48

for me than the boys do so there could be

1:10:51

a difference there you know perhaps men

1:10:53

and women do experience it differently but it could also

1:10:55

be that men don't realize you know how

1:10:57

bad that is you know that like if they're a young

1:10:59

man or something they're having sex with an adult and it's

1:11:01

like you know maybe they didn't

1:11:03

experience it as a versively yeah it's kind of

1:11:06

controversial in that sense sense as well that men

1:11:08

and women could experience that differently but at the

1:11:10

same time it almost doesn't matter because

1:11:12

we need you know we need rules like this to

1:11:14

say okay you know if you start to minimize that

1:11:16

you know I think you know like like a high

1:11:18

age of consensus really good we need like hard rules

1:11:21

in society just to say like you cannot do this

1:11:24

you know simple simple is yeah

1:11:27

and I would also think that

1:11:29

maybe traditionally that men haven't been

1:11:31

taught to feel their feelings or

1:11:34

it's it's emasculating if you do so

1:11:36

they might even have certain feelings that

1:11:38

they won't even recognize themselves let alone

1:11:40

verbalize to a professional or a poll

1:11:42

or what-have-you because it it takes whatever

1:11:45

masculinity that they even have that they

1:11:47

have left away after being victimized by

1:11:49

this but there I forget there was

1:11:51

this Netflix I want to

1:11:53

say movie and it was based off of

1:11:56

a true story and it was like the

1:11:58

typical you know female teacher in her

1:12:00

mid 20s and she had

1:12:02

an affair with a 16 year old

1:12:04

boy, I believe, and it

1:12:06

became like this really obviously toxic dynamic between

1:12:08

the two of them. And he thought he

1:12:11

was consenting. He thought he loved her. He

1:12:13

thought all of these things. She ends up,

1:12:15

I think she ended up doing some jail

1:12:17

time, but not much for it. And then

1:12:20

he kind of realizes later after he got

1:12:22

married and had children, what

1:12:24

damage that did and what precedent

1:12:26

that setting forward for his expectations

1:12:28

of romantic relationships. Like that power

1:12:30

dynamic is just off. And it

1:12:32

kind of leaves that boy in

1:12:34

this position of constantly like chasing and

1:12:36

wanting and being insecure and not feeling

1:12:38

like he's enough. It is really dark.

1:12:40

And I know that people are like,

1:12:42

Oh yeah, nice, especially if she's hot,

1:12:44

but oh my God, if that

1:12:47

ever happened to one of my boys, like I'd end up

1:12:49

in the cell next to that woman. Like, absolutely not. There's

1:12:51

going to be a huge consequence, whether

1:12:53

they realize it or not. And it would

1:12:55

take a lot of time to undo. And

1:12:57

that just seems like an unfair double

1:13:00

standard. Yeah. Yeah. And I

1:13:02

think definitely as a mother of two boys, you

1:13:04

see the potential damage that could do and the

1:13:06

boy, you know, at 16, he might not see

1:13:08

it, but I think you can kind of see

1:13:10

that. And you know, people even as young adults,

1:13:12

18, 20 or whatever, having a

1:13:14

relationship with another young adult, they reflect

1:13:16

back on those when they're 35. And I think,

1:13:18

my God, that was damaging. That was horrible. And

1:13:21

so people don't know, you know, the

1:13:24

extent to which a bad relationship is bad

1:13:26

for them, especially at a young age, people

1:13:28

make terrible decisions at a young age. Terrible

1:13:31

decisions. Your brain's not done. And then they

1:13:34

say the last, the last person, the last

1:13:36

thing to discover water is a fish. So

1:13:38

when you're in the thick of it, it's

1:13:40

like no one can tell you any different.

1:13:42

You're just absolutely blind. So I guess it

1:13:45

goes to just reestablishing or establishing a solid

1:13:47

relationship. That way, maybe they'll take your

1:13:49

opinion with some weight because oh

1:13:52

my God, yeah, terrifying. Yeah.

1:13:55

Well, I don't want to keep you. I know it's

1:13:58

very late in your part of the world. I

1:14:00

want to thank you so much. This has been

1:14:02

amazing. Can you tell the listeners where

1:14:04

they can find you, how they can support you, any

1:14:06

projects you're working on, all that good stuff? Sure.

1:14:09

Thank you. I had

1:14:11

a great time coming on. I run

1:14:13

the website, datepsychology.com. I'm on YouTube, alex.datepsych

1:14:15

and Twitter or Xnow, date psych. That's

1:14:17

where to find me at. Awesome.

1:14:20

I will link everything below. Again, thank you so much

1:14:22

and I hope you have a great night. Thank

1:14:24

you. That's it

1:14:27

for this week's episode of Chatting with Candace. Before

1:14:29

you go, if you could leave us a five

1:14:31

star review wherever you are listening or watching, I

1:14:33

would be eternally grateful. I will

1:14:35

link our guest's information below. Please give

1:14:37

him a follow and give

1:14:39

him all of your love and support for

1:14:42

being on the show. Lastly, of

1:14:44

course, plug myself. If

1:14:47

you want to support the podcast, you can go

1:14:49

to chattingwithcandace.com, sign up for Patreon or click that

1:14:51

little link that says, buy me a coffee. Everything

1:14:54

goes right back into the podcast, into editing,

1:14:57

guests getting them in here. All

1:14:59

that good stuff. I

1:15:02

think that is all of my housekeeping. Thank you so

1:15:04

much and I'll see you next week. Bye,

1:15:06

everybody.