0:00

Hi, Troy Sology listeners. It's Katie.

0:02

We have an opportunity for you to

0:04

help the show. Stick around until

0:06

the end of this episode, and I'll give you the details

0:08

on how to do that. Now

0:10

on to our show.

0:18

A study called Fit and TIPSI

0:20

was published in a leading sports medicine

0:23

journal in early twenty twenty two. Researchers

0:26

found a surprising relationship between

0:29

people's levels of exercise and

0:31

alcohol consumption.

0:33

Essentially, they found that higher fitness

0:35

levels were often linked with drinking more

0:37

booze. It's strange to

0:39

think that people who generally take better care of

0:41

their physical health by going to

0:43

the gym or playing sports would

0:45

also drink more, given the well

0:47

known adverse effects of alcohol on

0:49

health. Though maybe it's not

0:51

so strange when you imagine

0:52

football tailgates or weekend baseball

0:54

tournaments. Maybe

0:57

you've seen this kind of contradictory behavior in

0:59

other places as well. the coupon

1:01

cutter who takes exorbitant vacations or

1:04

the dedicated recycler

1:05

who drives the gas guzzler. In

1:08

this episode, we look at a phenomenon that

1:11

can set us up to behave better or

1:13

worse in the future. And

1:15

I'll speak with University of Miami Marketing

1:17

us, Usmicon, about the pitfalls

1:19

of good behaviors when they empower

1:22

bad ones.

1:28

I'm doctor Katie Milkmann, and this is

1:30

Choiceology, an original podcast

1:33

from Charles Schwab. to show about

1:35

the psychology and economics behind our

1:37

decisions. We bring you true

1:39

stories involving dramatic choices,

1:41

and then we explore how they relate to the latest

1:43

research and behavioral science. We

1:46

do it all to help you make better judgments

1:48

and avoid costly mistakes.

2:04

This

2:04

is Gustaf. Hi. My name

2:06

is Gustaf Chestnut. I'm senior

2:09

at the Nobel Prize Museum in Stockholm.

2:12

Alfon Nobel was born in Stockholm, grew up

2:14

very poor, and his father was an inventor

2:16

who lost all of his money and moved

2:18

to Russia to escape his creditors.

2:21

After

2:21

losing everything, Alfred Nobel's

2:23

father managed to build a fortune by

2:26

inventing a deadly

2:27

weapon. His father invented sea

2:29

mines that he sold to the Russian navy.

2:32

So during the War, he made a fortune

2:34

out of those because they wanted to block the harbor

2:36

to sink from the British. This

2:39

is in mid nineteenth century. So when

2:41

he was rich, the father sent for Alfred

2:43

and his brothers

2:44

Alfred Nobel was nine years old.

2:47

He moved from a life of poverty to

2:49

a life of privilege in

2:50

Saint Petersburg. St. Petersburg

2:52

with this cosmopolitan city. Alfred,

2:55

Swedish, Russian, English,

2:58

French, Italian, German

3:01

and Esperanto, and he dreamt of

3:03

being a poet, but his father

3:05

said that, well, it's he should be

3:07

an engineer. Nobel

3:09

read and wrote poetry throughout his life,

3:12

but

3:12

he heeded his father's advice and

3:14

pursued

3:14

a more technical career.

3:16

he would become an inventor

3:17

like his dad. His driving

3:20

force in was to invent and have new ideas

3:22

and to improve things.

3:23

he set his sights on improving the

3:25

utility and practicality of

3:27

a certain explosive. Doctor

3:29

Gustering. Doctor Gustering was a

3:31

powerful explosive that was much

3:33

more powerful than gunpowder, but the problem

3:35

is that it's difficult to get

3:37

it to explode when you want to. If

3:40

you leave it lying around, it'll be unstable, and then

3:42

it will explode. It was dangerous to

3:44

make. It was also dangerous to transport

3:47

because it's unstable. So it got

3:49

a really bad reputation even from the start

3:51

when he started manufacturing Natigestra in

3:53

Stockholm. The first factory

3:55

right in the middle of Stockholm, it blew up,

3:58

killed a lot of people, one of them was

4:00

one of Alfred Novels and Brothers. So

4:02

they were forced to manufactured outside

4:05

of Stockholm after that. And when you

4:07

shipped the Natigristor in

4:09

very often the ships when they arrived

4:11

at their ports, the natural crystalline would

4:13

explore. So it was

4:15

it got a bad reputation and it was

4:18

almost useless. and

4:20

Alfonabel then got the idea. Okay. So

4:22

I have to make this more useful. I have to make

4:24

this better and safer. And that's how we

4:26

came up with the idea for dynamite because

4:28

dynamite is basically nacoglycerin with

4:30

liquid very unstable, explosive

4:34

mixed with some absorbent material to

4:36

make it into a solid which

4:38

made it much safer to use. You

4:40

could just light it with the fuse, then it

4:42

would explode when the fuse had burned down and so

4:44

on, so it became much safer.

4:46

Dynamite became the new standard

4:48

explosive in construction. Everyone

4:51

wanted to use it. And Nobel

4:53

built factories in countries around

4:55

the world to capitalize on this demand.

4:57

He wasn't one of these inventors who make an

4:59

invention and then someone else makes a business

5:01

or he wasn't employed by someone. he

5:04

invented dynamite, and then he created

5:06

the different companies that sold

5:08

dynamite. So even though there were

5:10

other people involved, he was the one getting rich

5:12

from dynamite. So

5:14

inventing dynamites changed

5:16

Nobel's life, changed everything.

5:18

It was a a really good

5:21

product and it made him rich.

5:24

He was, well, more or less constantly

5:26

traveling. He had factories in

5:28

all different continents Victor

5:31

Igor, the French writer, called him Europe's

5:33

richest Vagabond.

5:35

Nobel's invention

5:36

was an extremely useful industrial

5:38

product. and a huge

5:40

financial success. But

5:42

some people began to use dynamite for

5:44

more

5:44

nefarious things. dynamite during

5:47

the late nineteenth century was really

5:49

the weapon of choice of terrorists. The

5:52

big thing that people were scared of

5:54

when it came terrorism in the late nineteenth century

5:57

were anarchists. Anarchists

5:59

killed at least one tsar in Russia, they

6:01

killed one empress in Austria

6:03

Hungary, President McKinley in

6:05

the United States was murdered by an anarchist.

6:08

In Paris, during a trial of terrorists

6:10

who had thrown dynamite in the theater, killing

6:12

a lot of people. the judges

6:14

talked about him belonging to a dynamite

6:17

club. That's sort of a nickname

6:19

that they gave to this terrorist activity. So

6:21

dynamite was known for something really

6:23

scary at the time basically. You

6:26

can't really blame Nobel for the

6:28

fact that some used dynamite for violence.

6:31

but it was a side effect of his invention.

6:33

And he held some complicated views

6:35

about war and peace. On

6:37

the one hand, we know that he believed in

6:39

progress the progress of humanity and technology

6:41

and science would make humankind

6:43

better in the world, a better place. And

6:46

he wrote lots of letters and he talked to

6:48

people about this He said that I like

6:50

peace, but I think that the peace movement

6:52

who wants to have peace through conferences

6:54

and negotiations I think they're on

6:56

their wrong track. I think that peace

6:59

will come when both sides in the

7:01

war have weapons that are powerful

7:03

enough that they can

7:05

destroy each other. That's who will have peace.

7:07

So he said that my weapons factories

7:10

will end war sooner

7:12

than your peace talks. By

7:14

the

7:14

time he was in his sixties, Alfred

7:17

Noble was well established as a businessman

7:19

and

7:19

had seen great success. So this

7:22

is the late eighteen

7:24

eighties. We lived in Paris at

7:26

quite grand house in an

7:28

expensive park in Paris. where

7:30

he had a winter garden. He had a

7:32

wild nice wine seller. We love to have

7:34

guests, and he gave him nice food

7:36

and nice wines It was

7:38

known for being generous, so lots of people

7:40

visited him. It

7:41

was a charmed life. But

7:43

one day, Nobel noticed something

7:46

strange

7:46

outside his window. One

7:48

morning, lots of people

7:50

turned out outside of his house

7:52

because they had written that newspaper that he

7:54

had died. so we had to

7:56

come out and say that actually, you know, I'm

7:58

I'm still alive. So

8:01

he checked the newspaper himself and the

8:03

great Parisian newspaper said

8:05

that he had died. What

8:07

had happened was that his brother had

8:09

died, but the newspaper got the name wrong. So

8:11

Saffronabel had the unpleasant experience

8:13

of reading his own obituary. And

8:16

it wasn't a very flattering obituary that

8:18

said that he was merchant

8:20

of death who had manufactured weapons

8:22

and that Alfred Naval was someone who

8:24

certainly cannot be called a benefactor

8:27

of mankind.

8:29

We don't know exactly what

8:31

his reaction to this was. I think it

8:33

may not have been a shock because

8:35

he really believed that

8:38

by making dynamite, he

8:40

had made the world a better place. He had

8:42

made possible tunnels and

8:44

canals. I mean, steel in Europe that were

8:46

building railways buildings came

8:48

from mines that were

8:50

blasted out with his dynamite. And

8:53

he also knew himself that he was a friend of

8:55

peace. He was an educated person who wrote

8:58

philosophy, how could people portray almost

9:00

like a monster?

9:02

Nobel didn't want to be remembered

9:04

that way.

9:04

So he set out to burnish his legacy.

9:07

He

9:07

wrote a new will and asked some Swedish

9:10

businessmen in Paris for their thoughts

9:12

on his plan.

9:12

He met them at a gentleness clock in

9:15

Paris and showed them his will.

9:17

And he said that

9:19

I want to create this fund where I

9:21

give out prices to

9:24

people who have done something good

9:26

for mankind. The

9:27

surprising part came, when he told his

9:29

fellow businessman how much of his wealth would

9:31

be dedicated to this fund. He was one of

9:33

the richest men in Europe. Basically,

9:35

really, everything went into this price.

9:38

It was a substantial fortune.

9:40

The three and a half page will

9:42

began by giving small sums to his

9:44

nephews

9:44

and his brothers. and then it says

9:47

that everything of the rest of my fortune should be

9:49

sold and made into a fund.

9:51

And the interest from that fund should

9:53

go to prices to the people

9:55

that have conferred the greatest benefit

9:57

to humankind during the preceding

9:59

year. And then it specifies

10:01

different categories, So

10:03

it should be for somewhat a

10:05

comfort benefit in the field of physics,

10:09

chemistry, physiology, or

10:11

medicine. So that's

10:13

one category. And then

10:15

those are the three sides prices and

10:17

then there's literature and

10:19

peace.

10:20

Nobel kept this new

10:21

version of his well a secret until he died

10:23

about a year later at sixty three

10:26

years old. Many

10:27

in the public were very surprised by

10:29

the well.

10:30

People were incredulous. How could someone who

10:33

invented dynamite and gunpowder

10:35

create a peace price? But

10:36

international nature of the prizes lent them

10:39

enormous credibility

10:39

over time. People who maybe

10:42

weren't that interested in their price from the

10:44

beginning, they thought, you know, it's Florida because of

10:46

Unibail was once summer from their

10:48

country got the price. That sort of changed

10:50

because people tended to be positive.

10:52

People were really into this

10:55

comparing nations and competing with

10:57

the nations, the progress of

10:59

nations and who had the best

11:01

industry and so on. and the

11:03

Nobel Prize was just perfect for that. It

11:05

was so useful for everyone to have it.

11:07

And Alfred Nobel,

11:10

as a person, sort of faded out a little

11:12

bit. So why

11:13

did Alfred Nobel

11:14

establish the peace prize? We don't

11:17

know

11:17

exactly where he wanted the prize at all,

11:19

but He probably

11:21

wanted to show people that he wasn't this

11:23

materialistic person who just thought

11:25

about money. He was wanted to show that he had broad

11:27

interest and he was interested in progress. being

11:29

an idealist. It's more

11:32

about changing how the

11:34

world viewed him

11:36

to make the world view him the

11:38

way that he did himself. The fact

11:40

that it worked out, that's the most fascinating thing

11:42

of all in one way, that people

11:45

is Sweden actually agreed to give out these prices

11:47

that they managed to transform this into a

11:49

working foundation and that one

11:51

hundred and twenty years more

11:53

after his death Every year

11:55

on December tenth, the day that he

11:57

died, there's a award ceremony where

11:59

the king of Sweden gives a

12:01

toast to Alfred Nobel. They have a statue of

12:03

him and the city all and give a

12:05

toast to him to the great donor Alfred Nobel.

12:07

And it's still his

12:09

money. It's the interest from his money.

12:11

that is still being given out. I

12:14

think that the way that the

12:16

price turned out exceeded all Nobel's

12:18

expectations and I think that

12:20

especially in Sweden, he's regarded as

12:22

a visionary and someone who's

12:24

a friend of science and peace and literature,

12:26

of course. What that has

12:28

done, however, is, of course, many people have

12:30

forgotten, especially outside of Sweden, have

12:32

forgotten the fact that he was every businessman,

12:34

an inventor because the way

12:36

that he improved its

12:38

reputation, right, was becoming this

12:41

philanthropist, so it's no analysis,

12:43

one of the really great philanthropist of

12:45

all time. And Well,

12:48

that's not a bad way

12:50

to end up, so you would probably be

12:52

happy.

12:53

Gustaf Shell Strand is the senior

12:55

curator at the Nobel Prize

12:56

Museum in Stockholm. You

12:58

can find more information about Alfred

13:01

Nobel and the Nobel Foundation in the

13:03

show notes. at schwab dot

13:05

com slash podcast. Since

13:08

nineteen sixty nine, there has also

13:10

been a prize in economic sciences.

13:12

It wasn't actually a Nobel's

13:14

will, but comes from the same

13:16

institution that awards the other prizes.

13:19

In fact, we've had two economics

13:21

Nobel Laureate's guests on this

13:23

show. Daniel Donovan and

13:25

Richard Taylor, both of whom won the prize

13:27

for their innovations and behavioral economics.

13:31

While Alfred Noble didn't

13:33

set out to do harm with his invention

13:35

of dynamite, His reputation and

13:37

self image certainly suffered due to

13:39

dynamite's association with

13:41

terrorism and war. You'll

13:44

recall that the premature newspaper

13:46

obituary called him a merchant of

13:48

death. Nobel apparently

13:50

decided that he needed a different

13:52

legacy. and that philanthropy

13:54

was a good way to achieve his goal,

13:56

even though it wouldn't undo the

13:58

negative aspects of his invention. We

14:00

see a similar type of compensating

14:03

behavior in many situations. Sometimes

14:05

it's

14:05

public facing. say

14:07

a corporation that made ethically

14:10

questionable business decisions strives to

14:12

make it known that it's supporting various

14:14

charities. Or maybe

14:16

it's a politician, who's been associated

14:18

with scandals and attempts to

14:20

burnish their moral standing by visibly

14:22

attending religious services. Sometimes

14:25

it's more private, You do

14:27

something you're not proud of and then decide you

14:29

should volunteer more and that

14:31

will clear your conscience. Or you

14:33

mistreat one person, and then turn

14:35

around and bend over backwards to help someone

14:37

else.

14:40

In

14:40

behavioral science, This phenomenon

14:42

is known as moral cleansing.

14:44

It's

14:45

where people imagine that they might make

14:47

up for some bad or unethical thing

14:49

they've done by doing some

14:51

ethical or good to balance the ledger.

14:54

The reverse is true as well, that

14:56

by doing something positive or

14:58

charitable, we allow ourselves more

15:00

freedom to behave badly later. This

15:03

is known as moral licensing. USAA

15:07

Khan is an expert on moral cleansing,

15:09

moral licensing, and the related

15:11

licensing effect. She's an

15:13

associate professor of marketing at the University

15:15

of Miami. Oozema, thank

15:17

you so much for joining me today. It's such

15:19

a pleasure to have you here. It's my

15:21

pleasure, Katie. Thank you for inviting me.

15:23

Luzma, what is licensing? Could you

15:26

just define the

15:27

term?

15:28

So licensing or

15:31

self licensing as it is also

15:33

commonly referred to arises

15:35

when doing something good,

15:37

allows people to do something bad

15:39

something that they would otherwise feel

15:41

guilty or a little uncomfortable

15:44

doing. And the law behind

15:47

this phenomenon is

15:49

that our behavior does

15:51

not arise in a vacuum In

15:54

fact, it is influenced

15:56

by how we arrive at

15:58

it. So our actions, our

15:59

choices, our decisions are all

16:02

influenced by what happens before

16:04

we arrive at these choices. So

16:06

when we do something good,

16:08

that gives us, so

16:10

to speak, a non conscious,

16:13

rosy lens through which we

16:15

then view our behavior later

16:17

on.

16:17

Could you describe some of the

16:20

earlier work on moral licensing

16:21

that first got you interested in this subject?

16:24

Yes. So I think one of the earliest

16:26

demonstrations of the

16:28

licensing effect was in

16:30

the moral area, in the political

16:32

area where they looked at

16:35

people's expression

16:37

of prejudice. And

16:40

these studies showed that

16:42

if people expressed a

16:44

nonresidential view, then

16:46

subsequently, they were more likely

16:49

to express prejudice. And the

16:51

idea in these studies were that

16:53

people feel more licensed to

16:55

express morally

16:57

prejudicial views if they

16:59

somehow feel that they have expressed

17:01

themselves and they have built their credentials

17:03

as being non prejudicial. That's

17:05

really interesting. And what made you

17:07

think that that particular

17:08

phenomenon might extend

17:11

outside of the domain of thinking

17:12

about, you know, prejudice

17:15

and gender

17:16

and race to consumer

17:19

preferences. Right.

17:19

So we see these rather

17:22

quizzical behaviors all the

17:24

time in consumption domain. So you

17:27

see people who would

17:29

recycle religiously, and

17:32

yet would drive

17:34

around in the gas guzzling SUV. So

17:36

you can see that they care about the environments and

17:38

yet they would not compromise on

17:40

their come you see people wearing

17:43

these expensive, exquisite

17:46

ballroom dresses to

17:48

their gaulas, which are

17:50

charity events, you see

17:52

people and I'm also guilty of this

17:54

myself that they order their

17:56

diet sodas only

17:58

to later super size their

18:00

fries and go for an extra

18:02

large piece of pizza.

18:04

So we saw these consumption

18:06

patterns around us all the time. And

18:09

we thought that, well, this

18:11

effect that has been observed

18:14

in the moral domain probably

18:17

occurs in everyday consumption as

18:19

well. That's really

18:19

interesting. I'm wondering if you could describe

18:22

some of your studies that

18:25

explored this. in consumer settings.

18:27

So

18:27

when we first started to

18:29

look at the licensing effect,

18:32

we explored it in the domain of

18:35

luxury consumption. And the

18:37

idea with luxury consumption is that

18:39

while we all want these luxury items,

18:42

They also make us feel a little bit guilty to

18:44

buy these items because these are driven

18:46

by hedonic pleasures. We want

18:48

them and yet we feel maybe we shouldn't

18:51

spend so much money on

18:53

these Prada shoes and

18:55

these Louis Vuitton handbags because

18:57

this money can be either

19:00

spend better on achieving

19:02

some more practical goals

19:04

or we can just save it for

19:06

future needs. So people often feel

19:08

guilty indulging in luxury

19:10

products. And taking this

19:12

logic of licensing, we felt

19:14

that licensing would

19:16

argue that people would feel

19:19

more liberated to

19:21

buy these luxury items if

19:23

they had initially established themselves

19:26

as non indulgent and more responsible

19:29

consumers. So we started off

19:31

with very simple studies. So I'll give you an

19:33

example of one where we gave people a

19:35

choice between a relative luxury

19:37

and a relative necessity. And the

19:40

specific choice was we asked them to

19:42

choose between a pair

19:44

of designer jeans and

19:46

a vacuum cleaner. And

19:48

what we found was

19:50

that some people who were given

19:53

Prior to a choice between the vacuum cleaner and

19:55

the designer jeans, they were given a

19:57

choice to pick

19:59

between two charities where they

20:01

would like to spend some time

20:03

volunteering. And this was a hypothetical

20:05

choice. We had told people, Imagine that

20:07

you have decided to volunteer some time,

20:09

which of these two charities would

20:11

you donate your time to.

20:13

And these people who

20:15

had expressed a choice between

20:17

these two charities were later

20:19

more likely to pick the designer jeans

20:22

compared to a control group that did

20:24

not make that initial VirTra's

20:26

decision.

20:26

That was a great example. One thing we

20:29

haven't talked much about is why people do

20:31

this. And I suspect you've thought a lot

20:33

about that. So I'm curious, what you think is leading this

20:35

pattern of behavior? Why do people engage in licensing?

20:38

Howard Bauchner: All right. So I think

20:39

it's a very interesting question.

20:42

So behavior is a signal

20:44

to us about who we are. So

20:46

we look at our behavior. So if I

20:48

see myself eating ice cream, I say, well,

20:50

I must be the kind of person who

20:52

Eats ice cream. Now the interesting thing

20:55

is that this could

20:57

lead to two completely different

20:59

subsequent downstream behaviors. So if

21:01

I see myself as I'm the kind

21:03

of person who eats ice cream.

21:06

I might eat more ice cream

21:08

later on and that's what old

21:10

research had shown that if I

21:12

see myself as you know, I'm this kind of a person. I'm

21:14

more likely to behave consistently.

21:16

We find that there are situations

21:18

where that doesn't happen because

21:20

when we have conflicting goals, so let's say,

21:23

I do want to

21:26

learn and read about

21:28

good educational, culturally enriching

21:30

things, but I also wanna enjoy myself and

21:32

read, you know, the popular media

21:34

and gossip. So when you have

21:37

these multiple goals, then making

21:40

progress towards one goal can

21:42

allow you to actually quit

21:44

that goal and start making

21:47

progress to the other goal. So we feel that licensing

21:49

happens through that route that

21:51

I want to be environmentally

21:54

friendly. And

21:56

yet, I do want to have

21:58

my cushy

21:58

luxurious

21:59

SUV. So

22:01

if

22:02

by recycling, now I have established

22:04

that I care about the environment,

22:06

and that then allows me

22:08

to buy my SUV without

22:10

reflecting poorly on me. So

22:12

it is really in these cases where we see

22:14

the licensing effect happening,

22:17

people take their

22:19

behavior as a signal of

22:21

who they are and

22:24

establishing credentials for who they are

22:26

and then their subsequent behavior, though

22:28

inconsistent, with their image,

22:30

doesn't seem as bad.

22:33

Susan, I'm curious

22:33

if you have any advice on

22:36

what we can do avoid feeling

22:39

licensed

22:39

by the things we do on social media

22:41

or the other small acts

22:43

we do that are good and make sure

22:45

that we still actually double down and do

22:47

the more important good behaviors

22:50

like eating healthy and driving

22:52

the right kinds of cars and so on?

22:54

I

22:54

I think, yes, there there are a couple of things I

22:56

could suggest. So first is

22:59

we know in in our behavioral

23:02

decision making area, pre commitment

23:04

devices are very powerful.

23:07

And I think here as well,

23:09

they can quite a useful role here where

23:11

if we say that, okay, during

23:14

any week, I am going

23:16

to eat so

23:18

much fish, so much vegetables,

23:20

so much fruit, and it

23:22

doesn't matter what I eat today.

23:24

Or I I would actually recommend that people

23:27

should set shorter and shorter time

23:29

frames for their goals. If you

23:31

set daily goals, then even if you

23:33

get licensed to eat

23:35

unhealthy at dinner, that's fine. That just means

23:37

you eat healthy at lunch.

23:40

So I think balancing is

23:42

a great thing. The problem that arises is

23:44

that people don't balance out when

23:46

they think that, 0II

23:48

just unhealthy. I should eat healthy later

23:50

on, and they often think, oh, yes.

23:52

Tomorrow, I'll eat healthy, but they don't.

23:54

So I think

23:55

encouraging people to establish

23:58

shorter and shorter goals can

23:59

help. Another

24:00

thing that can really help is if

24:03

we ask our friends and family

24:05

and people around us to hold us accountable.

24:08

And I say that because we have

24:10

some data where we find

24:12

that while we see

24:14

our virtuous actions

24:16

as reasons to license

24:18

our vices later on, Others

24:20

don't. So in fact, in some studies, we

24:22

find that if others

24:25

observe you doing something

24:27

virtuous, they expect

24:29

consistency from you. They will raise the demands

24:31

of virtue on you whereas

24:34

and it's it's sort of a moral hypocrisy

24:36

that if I do something virtuous,

24:38

I lower the demands virtue on myself. But if

24:40

you do something virtuous, I raise

24:42

the demands of virtue on you. But

24:44

the smaller hypocrisy can

24:47

also help us if we ask

24:50

others to hold us accountable

24:52

to our goals. I'm

24:54

curious if this research has changed your

24:56

own decisions at all. In

24:58

some areas, yes, and others know,

25:01

I still get my

25:03

diet coke and my supersize

25:06

fries. And I know what I'm

25:08

doing, which just means that for the

25:10

next week, I would try

25:12

to stay away from fast food. But

25:14

and and I know that it just makes me

25:16

feel better instead of just going with a

25:18

regular Coke. But in other areas, it

25:21

has made me quite cognizant of the fact that

25:23

look, I just

25:25

did something good here

25:27

or something virtuous here and who

25:29

am I kidding? This is not enough. So

25:31

I think it has made me more

25:34

consistent as a person.

25:36

And this is also something we found

25:38

in our data. that it seems to be more of an unconscious effect. If

25:41

people become conscious of it,

25:43

they can correct for it. That's really

25:45

interesting.

25:45

Uzma, how would you say this all

25:47

relates to self control and people's

25:49

challenges with self control?

25:51

I think

25:52

it relates to self

25:55

control directly and also

25:57

to ourselves not

25:59

being any one self all

26:01

the time. So we have one

26:04

self that is now and then

26:06

future self is different, and preferences of the future

26:08

self are very different than the preferences

26:10

of the current self. In our

26:12

studies, people always say, well, yes,

26:14

in future, I'm gonna watch the

26:17

documentaries. I'm going to eat

26:19

healthy in future. I'm gonna have my plain

26:21

fat free yogurt. But right

26:23

now, my reference is to go

26:25

for that cookie and to watch

26:27

Oceans Eleven. And this

26:29

is a struggle that the self has, that

26:31

the self has to balance between

26:33

the preferences of the current

26:35

self and the preferences of the

26:37

future self. And we want to make

26:39

sure that the wants of the

26:41

current self are balanced out

26:43

by what the future self should

26:45

be doing. And licensing

26:47

is just a tool through which

26:49

we allow our current

26:52

self, do not feel bad about letting that

26:54

future self down. Usman, thank you

26:55

so much. This was really, really

26:58

interesting. Thank

26:59

you for having me, Katie, who is so fun

27:01

talking to you.

27:04

Boozma Khan

27:05

is an associate professor

27:07

of Mark at the University of Miami.

27:10

She's an expert on consumer behavior,

27:12

marketing management, and decision making.

27:15

You can find links

27:17

to her

27:18

research in the show

27:20

notes and at schwab

27:22

dot com slash podcast.

27:24

Oose McCann

27:26

talked about self control

27:28

struggles and the positive impact

27:30

on our decision making when others hold us

27:33

accountable. Saving money is

27:35

one area where people too often favor

27:37

current desires over

27:38

future needs.

27:40

On the financial decoder

27:42

podcast, Host Mark Rebe and his guests often discuss

27:45

strategies to help you create and stick to a

27:47

financial plan. One of

27:49

the best help you stay

27:51

accountable to your future self. Check it

27:53

out at schwab dot comfinancial

27:56

decoder or wherever

27:57

you get your podcasts. Our

28:00

tendency

28:00

to treat our acts of morality and

28:02

self control is if there are credits

28:04

in a ledger against which we

28:07

can

28:07

borrow or make loans.

28:09

It's just

28:09

fascinating. I'm

28:11

certainly guilty of indulging in more sinful

28:13

desserts on days when I make it to

28:16

the gym. and of excusing my very occasional

28:18

acts of incivility by

28:20

pondering all of my other acts of

28:22

kindness. Nobathello, Richard

28:24

sailor calls it mental accounting when we

28:27

label money and time and treat

28:29

these fungible resources as if they

28:31

belong in their own accounts. Isn't

28:33

it interesting that we apply the same reasoning

28:35

to morality and exertions of

28:37

self control? Whenever

28:39

we create imaginary balance sheets in our

28:41

head and behaviors of keeping score

28:44

matters, we're engaging in a kind of

28:46

tracking

28:46

that can be useful. It's

28:48

useful when we'd be tempted to over

28:51

indulge in bad behaviors,

28:52

like overeating,

28:54

overspending, and excessive immorality

28:56

without any boundaries in place.

28:58

But

28:59

licensing can also have perverse

29:01

consequences, causing us to feel like

29:03

the time has come to cash in if we've

29:05

controlled our spending, diet, exercise,

29:07

or immoral impulses for a long

29:10

time. Who's most finding that

29:12

other people don't see licensing as

29:14

acceptable means that our friends,

29:16

family, and colleagues can help hold

29:18

us accountable if we're worried about sliding into bad patterns

29:20

after a

29:20

period of good behavior. And

29:23

it's also noteworthy

29:25

that we're less likely to engage in licensing

29:26

when it's brought to our attention. Just

29:29

learning about this tendency may

29:31

help you avoid abusing it.

29:34

So the next time you think your workout means you're due

29:36

for a wild night out, or that your diligent

29:38

savings plan allows you a spending

29:41

spree. Maybe

29:41

you'll think again.

29:51

You've

29:54

been listening to Trisology, an

29:56

original

29:56

podcast from Charles Schwab.

29:58

If

29:59

you've enjoyed

29:59

the show, We'd be really grateful if you'd

30:02

leave us a review on Apple podcasts.

30:04

You can also follow us for free in

30:06

your favorite podcasting app. And if

30:08

you

30:08

want more of the kinds of insights we bring you

30:10

on trisology about how to improve

30:12

your decisions, you can order my book how

30:14

to change or sign up for my

30:17

monthly newsletter Milkman delivers

30:19

at katie milkman dot com slash

30:21

newsletter. In two weeks,

30:23

the

30:23

remarkable story of doctor Fron's

30:26

mezz Benjamin

30:26

Franklin, and the experiment that changed

30:29

science forever. I'm doctor

30:31

Katie Milkman. Talk to

30:33

you soon. For

30:41

important

30:41

disclosures, see the

30:43

shown notes or visit schwab dot com slash pod. As

30:45

I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, we're

30:47

looking for a little help with trisology.

30:49

We're launching a listener survey

30:51

so you can share your thoughts on the show and help us better

30:54

understand our audience. Check

30:55

it out at schwab dot com slash

30:58

podcast

30:58

survey.

30:59

We'd really appreciate you taking a few minutes

31:01

to provide feedback. That's

31:04

schwab dot com slash podcast

31:07

survey. Thanks,

31:07

and we hope to hear from you.

31:09

podcast.