0:00

Hello and welcome to choose a five

0:02

today on the show we're talking about

0:04

a really critically important topic that doesn't

0:06

get enough attention in the five community,

0:09

charitable giving and specifically effective giving and

0:11

how charitable donations factor into your five

0:13

journey and a well-lived life we're joined

0:16

by rebecca herbs who is a long

0:18

time member of the choose a bike

0:20

community and admin of our new time

0:22

local group she's the founder of yield

0:25

and spread.org an organization that is on

0:27

a mission to use personal finance as

0:29

a force for good they teach the

0:31

ins and outs of investing in financial

0:33

planning but with a greater goal to

0:35

encourage people to give back and help

0:37

others they donate 100% of

0:40

their proceeds to high impact charities jack lewis

0:42

sits on the board of yield and spread

0:44

and is the executive director for one for

0:46

the world a community of people who have

0:48

pledged to give 1% of

0:50

their income each year to charity one

0:52

for the world is revolutionizing charitable giving

0:54

by making an incredibly easy to donate

0:56

to the best nonprofits in the world

0:59

that address extreme poverty and global

1:01

health issues. They are also dedicated

1:03

to building a thriving sustainable community

1:05

of individuals who share values in

1:07

effective giving through organizing training and

1:09

education i think you really gonna

1:11

enjoy this episode i know i had an

1:14

absolute blast speaking with rebecca and jack and

1:16

it really opened my eyes to the general

1:18

concept of charitable giving of course which is

1:20

always been in the back of my mind

1:23

but effective giving and what that truly means

1:25

i think you really gonna enjoy this with

1:27

that welcome to choose a five. Rebecca

1:37

and Jack thank you both so very much

1:39

for being here i really appreciate it so

1:41

glad to be here thanks for having us

1:43

yeah this should be fun this is a

1:46

long time coming i think charitable giving and

1:48

effective giving is something that's it's so critical

1:50

and it touches all of us but yet

1:52

and i've done 600 plus

1:54

episodes of choose a five and we've

1:56

never dedicated an entire episode to this

1:59

so this clear really is a hole

2:01

that needed to be filled, and I appreciate

2:03

both of you being here. So I guess

2:05

why don't we start with Jack, let's just

2:07

start with your background on

2:10

charitable giving, effective giving. Give us just a

2:12

quick overview, because I think a lot of

2:14

people just don't even have a sense of

2:16

the definitions of these things. Yeah,

2:18

so I think I got into this

2:20

the same way a lot of people

2:22

do, which is when I was younger,

2:25

I had a general philanthropic urge, so

2:27

I decided I wanted to work in

2:29

the charitable sector, but without really knowing

2:31

anything about what that meant. And

2:33

I felt like life wasn't

2:35

fair, and there were people who

2:38

were harmed by things that were outside their control,

2:40

because it's not a level playing field, and that

2:42

we should do something about that. But I didn't

2:44

really have any clear idea of what that should

2:46

be. And so to begin with, I did stuff

2:48

that I guess is quite standard, so

2:50

I volunteered in the soup kitchen when

2:52

I was at university, and I made

2:54

the odd donation here and there to

2:56

a charity that had caught my eye.

2:59

But then the real change moment for

3:01

me was I read a book by

3:03

a bioethicist called Peter Singer about how

3:05

some charities are demonstrably better at

3:07

making change than others, and how

3:09

also we can all survive comfortably

3:11

on less than 100% of what

3:13

we earn. And

3:16

when you put those two things together, if

3:19

you give even a small percentage of your income away

3:21

to very, very cost effective charities, you can make a

3:23

massive difference. And so at that point, I took a

3:25

giving pledge to give away 10% of my income, and

3:27

I did that when I was 21. And

3:31

then I kind of put that philanthropy into practice

3:33

as well as donating by co-founding a charity in

3:35

the UK called the School of Hard Knocks, which

3:37

uses rugby and boxing to help children who are

3:40

at risk of being excluded from school to complete

3:42

their education, did that for 10 years. And then

3:44

when I wanted to leave that and move into

3:46

something else, thought, well, I already do this effective

3:49

giving, so why don't I go and work in

3:51

this space as well? And that's how I came

3:53

to One For The World. Gotcha. Okay,

3:55

so first, what's the title of that

3:57

book? Because I'm sure some people are gonna be... curious

4:00

about that? Well, the most accessible book is

4:02

called The Life You Can Save and that's

4:04

what I would recommend. I actually read a

4:06

book called Practical Ethics which is more written

4:09

for people studying philosophy at university and is

4:11

a bit more dense but the effects would

4:13

be the same. Although it's worth saying, it

4:15

also told me to go vegetarian and I

4:17

only did that about two years ago. So

4:20

it's funny how change works in our mind.

4:22

Interesting. Okay, so you did take that to

4:24

heart but it took eight plus years, right?

4:26

Yeah, it's a solid decade for me to

4:28

take reaction on what was an equally well

4:30

argued piece of philosophy. So

4:33

the Giving Pledge, 10% of

4:35

income and you did this in your 20s, your

4:38

early 20s, right? So talk me

4:40

through what precisely is the

4:43

Giving Pledge. I think a lot of

4:45

people are aware loosely of some of

4:48

these type of Giving Pledges. I

4:50

know famously Warren Buffett, Phil and

4:52

Melinda Gates, etc. But I

4:54

think a lot of people naturally then say, oh,

4:57

that's just for deca-billionaires,

4:59

not for people like me.

5:01

Yes, so the Giving Pledge

5:03

specifically is the pledge promoted

5:06

by Bill Gates and Melinda

5:08

French which is to give

5:10

at least 50% of

5:12

your wealth away on your death or

5:14

by the time you die and that

5:16

is aimed specifically at the ultra-rich. The

5:18

pledge that I took is called the

5:20

Giving What We Can Pledge and that

5:22

is more accessible to ordinary people and

5:25

it's a pledge to give at least

5:27

10% of your income

5:29

away until you retire. Now,

5:31

depending on your financial circumstances and your

5:33

financial goals, that may not be easy

5:35

but certainly in my case, I went

5:37

straight from university to being in work

5:39

and one thing we know about the

5:42

psychology of giving is, as

5:44

long as the money never reaches your bank

5:46

account, you can usually learn to live

5:48

on 90% of your income.

5:51

It's a bit more difficult if you've become accustomed to

5:53

living on 100% of your income and

5:55

then try to give it away, although that's also

5:57

possible but in my case, I just made this

5:59

idealistic commitment. commitment to do this. And

6:01

so for my whole life, I

6:04

have effectively internalized the idea that I

6:06

earn about 90% of

6:08

what I actually earn. And I haven't

6:10

found that particularly difficult to stick to.

6:12

Yeah, I love that. I think for

6:15

people listening, obviously, who are in the

6:17

fight community, we've built lives where we

6:19

can save, however that looks like, 30

6:22

to 50 plus percent, maybe,

6:24

right? Which is wonderful. So I think

6:26

we certainly understand, okay, what does it

6:28

look like to build a life you can

6:30

quote unquote afford, right? So if giving

6:33

is part of that, then that is just

6:35

simply a line, if you will, it's a

6:37

line item in your budget, right? So building

6:39

that life makes perfect sense. And Rebecca, obviously,

6:42

I want to get you in here and

6:44

talk about the intersection of phi and such.

6:46

But just one last quick question for Jack

6:48

before we move on, which is, so these

6:51

giving pledges, I think the issue has always

6:53

been like, what seems like the irrevocable nature

6:55

of it. And while it's not that,

6:57

right, it's not like the world is going to come

6:59

to an end if you only gave 7% this

7:02

year because of whatever arose in your

7:04

life. I think that's what's held me up. And

7:06

I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. This

7:09

is so common. I hear this all the

7:11

time in my job, I have people who

7:14

write to me and say, I'm taking a

7:16

career break, is it okay if I don't

7:18

donate in this period? To which the answer

7:20

is yes, obviously, because it's an income pledge

7:23

and your income is going down. And the

7:25

nice thing about percentages is they scale. So

7:27

if your income goes down, the amount you're

7:29

supposed to donate goes down, but it is

7:32

also completely fine to pause your pledge to

7:34

reduce the percentage that you're giving. The point

7:36

is, though, that most of us

7:38

do philanthropy in this very haphazard,

7:40

sporadic way. And that applies to

7:43

which charities we choose, where we

7:45

often choose nonprofits on a real

7:47

whim with really bizarre decision making

7:49

processes, but also the amount where

7:52

I sometimes show you a bit like, you know, a

7:54

drunk managing their money on payday, you give a bigger

7:56

donation because you feel rich and then, you know, two

7:58

weeks later when you've spent some of that you

8:01

give a smaller donation. And this is why

8:03

I think pledges can be really valuable because

8:05

they try to peg you to an amount,

8:07

but it's not a contract signed in blood.

8:09

It's not even a legal contract. You know,

8:11

you obviously should feel some sense of personal

8:13

obligation to stick to it. But I would

8:15

never encourage anyone to stick to this to

8:17

the point of financial hardship for their family.

8:19

Yeah. And I'll pop in here too. I

8:21

think one of the great things about a

8:24

pledge is you're also surrounding yourself

8:26

with the community of other people

8:28

who are also giving back. And

8:30

I think it's just like with finance, right?

8:32

Like when you surround yourself with the choose

8:35

a five community, you're seeing all these people

8:37

do things that seem really hard from the

8:39

outset. But when you see the average person

8:41

that's maybe just like you a similar demographic

8:43

doing something amazing, I think it's a lot

8:46

easier to do. My husband and

8:48

I actually this year, we were reviewing

8:50

our finances heading into 2024.

8:52

And we've actually decided to double

8:55

our donation, which on one

8:57

sense is like, wow, that feels really

8:59

scary. But then on the flip side

9:01

of it, we're saying, well, let's just try it.

9:04

Like let's just do it for the year and

9:06

see how it goes. And if it feels too

9:08

hard, we can scale back. We don't have to

9:10

necessarily scale all the way back to what

9:12

we were doing before. But it's really just taking

9:15

those steps forward with anything, whether it's like trying

9:17

to work out for the first time or trying

9:19

new foods, it's just taking that first step. And

9:21

and once you do it feels a lot less

9:24

scary. And let me say something

9:26

else about pledging and percentages. One

9:28

of the things that percentages helps us

9:31

to do is to scale our giving

9:33

according to our affluence. And there are

9:35

lots of forces that stop us doing

9:37

that your listeners might be familiar with

9:39

something called adaptive affluence, whereas you get

9:41

richer, you typically adapt your minimum expectation

9:43

of your lifestyle to that new level

9:45

of wealth. Sometimes this is called the

9:48

hedonic treadmill. Percentages help to combat

9:50

that because if you stick to a

9:52

percentage of your income, if your income

9:54

goes up over time, which it does

9:56

for most people in their careers, you

9:58

will at least Some extent scale you're

10:01

giving with your income. Now strictly speaking with

10:03

because of the law of diminishing returns, you

10:05

should actually give higher percentages of your income

10:07

as you get richer because they're hundred thousand

10:10

dollar that you are in a year is

10:12

worth a lot less to you than the

10:14

ten thousand dollar. And if you're lucky enough

10:16

to had a million dollars in here, you

10:18

really probably don't need the millionth dollar to

10:21

change your material quality of life. Or

10:23

at least it's a sense, it's keeps you

10:25

honest. And then the other thing that's interesting

10:27

as we have a ton of data on

10:30

charitable giving. The choice is very clearly not

10:32

people he pledged percentages, give more and that's

10:34

I think a pseudo of loss aversion that

10:36

comes in where if you tell yourself well

10:38

as I get richer I will be more

10:40

generous vessel very well. but once the money's

10:42

in your bank account it kind of feels

10:45

like it's yours and it's a bit difficult

10:47

to give it away. And this is also

10:49

born out in the data where I income

10:51

bracket. the richest people are by far. The

10:53

least two hundred sites people in the past

10:55

him income bracket in the Us given higher

10:58

percentage of their income the people in the

11:00

tip income bracket which is actually completely shameful

11:02

by the way that this is an effective

11:04

kind of loss aversion and sticker shock where

11:06

people think oh well. Hundred. Dollars

11:08

is generous, and the fact that I and

11:10

four hundred thousand dollars a year doesn't make

11:12

me any less generous. We giving hundred dollars

11:15

will, actually, it does make you significantly less

11:17

generous than someone who's ending under fifty thousand

11:19

dollars and gives hundred bucks. And so it

11:21

can be a way of of just making

11:23

sure that you're always giving an amount the

11:25

is appropriate to your wealth in assets. Yeah.

11:28

And it's funny going back to what you

11:30

said before about like I I essentially a

11:32

drunk with thing from one thing to the

11:34

other just haphazardly giving money. or if you're

11:37

the you may be seen into my tax

11:39

return a little bit because that's what it's

11:41

you have Lake and I don't think that

11:43

we are on charitable Bryant. It often feels

11:46

haphazard and I think that's what I'm so

11:48

excited to talk to both you about is.

11:50

Almost. Not that I expect to

11:52

come in this episode with a plan per

11:55

se, but at least to just have a

11:57

better direction. And I think speaking of direction

11:59

talk. Dad a monster version which is so

12:01

and when we we talk all the time here

12:04

at use of I about. Essentially,

12:06

how to take your brains out

12:08

of the decision making process, make

12:10

things automatic? Make it so that,

12:12

But you're saying jackie, don't have

12:15

to. Look. At a number on

12:17

a screen and then see a smaller

12:19

number after you've done something. Whatever. Maybe.

12:21

Are there ways than either of you

12:24

have found to make this automatic that

12:26

it's works for you in the past.

12:28

Yeah. So I think. Giving

12:30

can be easy by itself, hard

12:32

in some ways, and as and

12:34

there's a variety of reasons, but.

12:37

There's. A couple points as threats and that

12:39

I feel like I've kind of thought

12:41

impact south converted salads I was saying

12:43

earlier like from a young age. he

12:45

felt this as an ultra thin and

12:47

one to get facts for me it

12:49

was. A little different. For

12:51

most of my adult life, I

12:53

didn't actually give with much generosity

12:56

I think. Bradley. The as

12:58

a little more like he like if someone

13:00

was running a marathon and they said hey

13:02

we're you help me raise the funds like

13:04

around the marathon and also the back to

13:07

charity or if a climate activists on the

13:09

street approach the it's at a donate to

13:11

this cause it out I waited. don't need

13:13

to that if I write about something in

13:16

the media but I had no systematic way

13:18

of approaching giving as I think not having

13:20

a son is what makes giving hard. And

13:23

so there's I think three. Main points

13:25

of Friends and. Their.

13:27

First is. Were. At a gas.

13:30

right? So like if you're walking on

13:32

the street and someone asks you for money

13:34

you may feel very excited to get to

13:36

that cause that's something you're passionate about or

13:39

you could actually just feel assaulted right like

13:41

her. under a to work your super busy

13:43

at it makes you feel uncomfortable almost like

13:45

how dare you ask me this question as

13:47

I'm trying to do other things of my

13:50

life and it makes you feel guilty. an

13:52

uncomfortable. But. Have you actually sit down

13:54

and take a moment to think about like

13:56

what are the things that I want to

13:58

give to you. Whether that's something

14:00

that you're passionate about, your close to you

14:03

or in the case as me and Jack

14:05

which we can talk about more in a

14:07

bit of fact is giving. Donating.

14:10

Dollars that saved the most life

14:12

possible if you have an idea

14:14

of what these charities are, these

14:17

interventions are they you want. Spend.

14:19

Your money on then you already have a framework

14:21

that access and we get up a little bit

14:23

more about what some of those resources are like

14:25

if you just have no clue. Great like were

14:28

set of am. So. The first

14:30

says where to get. The

14:32

second is overcoming that. Healing.

14:34

As I don't have enough. Now

14:37

for some of your listeners like

14:39

they may not have enough, Rightly,

14:41

they may not have enough. They

14:43

may be on minimum wage, a

14:46

baby, taking care of their parents,

14:48

their families back. I would say

14:50

for most people that are pursuing

14:53

that I fi path right there

14:55

accumulating wealth is you are making

14:57

sixty thousand us dollars a year

14:59

annually. you are in the top

15:02

one percent income earners in the

15:04

world. So. While you mean I

15:06

perceive yourself to be rich. You

15:09

are so it's hard.

15:11

To overcome that mindset that when you're

15:13

on the path half I and all

15:15

you're doing is like trying to accumulate

15:17

wealth and you're working really hard to

15:19

seize and sort of squirrel away that

15:21

money and so it feels like you

15:23

don't have enough by we know, like

15:25

that we are accumulating that wealth and

15:27

and do have a lot of space

15:30

to get back. And I differ

15:32

Third, his first left group. Of people

15:34

is. Optimization. So.

15:38

I. Know that when I do things

15:40

with my finances like if I

15:42

am that verify taxloss harvest and

15:44

doing something and them as tax

15:46

optimize way possible. Setting for a

15:48

lot of wealthy. People were looking to

15:50

give away meaningful sums of money and

15:53

aca be couple of hundred dollars Years

15:55

I could be thousands. Of dollars a year

15:57

That can be Ten, Two thousand Nine, zero. There.

16:00

That is, you're at a that

16:02

in attacks optimize lane. So because

16:04

of that perfect as the enemy

16:06

a guy sort of mindset, they

16:08

ended never giving at all. So.

16:10

I think there's ways in which we can

16:13

think about and make it easy for people

16:15

to help them figure out where he guess.

16:17

Help them understand some sort.

16:19

Of prior way from that scarcity mindset

16:21

help them understand like how they can.

16:23

Do lot of good and then also.

16:26

How they can do that? Whether

16:28

it's donating cash, Whether it's donating

16:30

stocks. What types of accounts

16:32

we donate from and so a yielding

16:35

spread which is the nonprofit I found

16:37

dead were on emissions Kind of bring

16:39

these two worlds together and me get

16:41

as easy as possible to understand how

16:43

to give from a personal finance. Yeah.

16:46

I love that I just want to dive

16:48

into the nuts and bolts because they think

16:50

that that is really important. Obviously we can

16:52

just send people to search, yielded and spread.org

16:55

and most part my better be on both.

16:57

That's important clearly. So I want to dive

16:59

into optimization because they think this is really

17:01

important thing like the actual effective altruism and

17:03

I think that's a freeze that a lot

17:05

of us have heard. Will. Mccaskill I

17:08

think is a risk to my knowledge. the

17:10

founder of that and unfortunately effective altruism took

17:12

a little black guy with Sam Bacon's fried

17:14

and and sides but that obviously doesn't negate

17:16

the importance and value of it just because

17:19

one road person but he but it has

17:21

been in the news right? So I remember

17:23

reading years ago with i'd of you want

17:25

to be the most effective way possible to

17:28

just buy mosquito nets and whether that's true

17:30

and I'd I'd maybe you get you both

17:32

not and you can chime in on advice.

17:34

I think this goes back Check to you

17:37

or thought. Of like the I keep using

17:39

the word haphazard and that's how I think

17:41

of It is yes, we give to our

17:43

local charities a sense We whether they're effective

17:46

or not just because it's it's visceral for

17:48

him we we know these people. In many

17:50

cases we see again whether it's effective or

17:52

not we see the impact in our local

17:55

environment and community as opposed to okay maybe

17:57

would have been better to spend that five

17:59

hundred. His and by mosquito nets right

18:01

both com Should someone even begin to

18:04

attempt to think about that? It's such

18:06

a weedy issue. The. Most important

18:08

thing for your listeners to know is

18:11

that way you choose to give is

18:13

substantially more important for how much good

18:15

you will date and how much he

18:17

choose to give. And the reason for

18:20

that is that the difference in impact

18:22

between an average non profit and I

18:24

brilliant non profit is demonstrably a hundred

18:27

to a thousand times more cost effectiveness.

18:30

So. Most people there was a big survey

18:32

done on this and they asked a lot

18:34

of people what do you think the differences

18:36

between an average in a brilliant non profit

18:38

and they said i think be brilliant nonprofit

18:40

will be two and a half times more

18:42

cost effective than the average. Know it is

18:44

a hundred two thousand x different. And.

18:47

Oversee What that means is most people

18:49

cannot give a hundred or thousand times

18:51

more to chassis than they do right

18:53

now, but they could do a hundred

18:55

to a thousand times more good by

18:57

choosing the most cost effective programs. The.

18:59

Second thing to think about Harrys, you

19:01

have to choose. Unfortunately, there are about

19:04

one point seven million nonprofits in the

19:06

U, most of which are doing a

19:08

good job. although I did hear an

19:11

episode about some that is set up

19:13

to convince offensive line backers to go

19:15

to certain universities which shouldn't be starting

19:18

with broadly. Speaking of, most of these

19:20

things are doing good job. There.

19:22

Are too many causes in the world's

19:24

that you will want to support for you

19:27

to fund all of them. See you

19:29

have to choose and then once you know

19:31

you have to choose it seems that

19:33

really sensible way of teasing to try and

19:35

find where your money can do the most

19:37

good because all of these causes deserving

19:40

if you try to force rank you know

19:42

is is is it a child dying

19:44

of Malaria in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

19:46

More. Deserving of my support

19:49

than a woman in an

19:51

abusive relationship in America or

19:53

than a refugees fleeing the

19:55

war in Ukraine.is I think

19:58

almost impossible question to. So.

20:00

But. What you can do is

20:03

say I know the I

20:05

can help prevent malaria for

20:07

under ten dollars. And. It's

20:09

very unlikely to I can make a

20:11

meaningful change in the other two cases

20:13

for under ten dollars. And so if

20:15

I only have a finite amount of

20:17

money to give, it seems like a

20:19

really good way of choosing between these

20:21

causes to the for the most cost

20:23

effective for hims and that for me

20:25

as the House of Effective giving his

20:27

understanding that way you choose to give

20:29

is the single most important decision that

20:31

he made and that it is a

20:33

morally good thing to try to use

20:35

your finite resources to do the most

20:37

good possible. Now. What that will

20:39

do is it will encourage you towards

20:42

types of giving. That might feel counterintuitive

20:44

because intuitively, we tend to give to

20:46

local charities intuitively returned to get to

20:48

places where we know someone involved in

20:50

the charity. Intuitively, we give to places

20:52

where we think we can see the

20:54

outcome of what we're giving. But.

20:56

The truth is. Charity.

20:58

Evaluation is an incredibly specialized field that

21:00

needs enormous amounts of time and technical

21:03

expertise to do. And the people who

21:05

have done this evaluation will give you

21:07

the advice that use of father and

21:10

they will tell you that it very

21:12

very unlikely that the most cost effective

21:14

thing you can do is give to

21:16

your local soup kitchen versus. providing.

21:19

Nutrition to someone who will otherwise

21:21

starve to death. Yeah. I

21:24

love how he said i think the

21:26

word the you sad wire that's Haredi

21:28

or the intervention the each his support.

21:31

It's much more impactful than how much

21:33

money you will get because that the

21:35

cost of fact at Math. And

21:37

the ability to how people are really resonates

21:39

with me a what other thing that I

21:41

struggled with as. Feeling. Like

21:44

I've personally had to do all this

21:46

research like I personally have to go

21:48

out and research are anti malarial Bad

21:50

as a factor is my local soup

21:53

kitchen effect. And. That is

21:55

a lot of pressure. First of, I

21:57

don't have the expertise for that. Chris

21:59

Lee at. Have that much time. But

22:01

I do have money that I want to

22:03

give away. As there are these

22:05

amazing organizations that are doing. The

22:08

work for you. Give. Well

22:10

as one the like you can

22:12

save his another. If you go

22:14

on these organizations website a half

22:16

list it right there for you.

22:18

These are our top charities that

22:20

we believe can do the most

22:22

good possible That if you johnny

22:24

to these causes here are the

22:26

results right? If you donate twelve

22:29

hundred dollars this will cover the

22:31

costs of us fistula, surgery and

22:33

the rehabilitation for one woman and

22:35

save her life. It's very clear

22:37

what those outfits are, whereas if.

22:39

You donate some textbooks to your

22:41

local high school? Do we know

22:44

if those text books are actually

22:46

helping kids graduate To me, Know

22:48

if those textbooks are actually helping

22:51

those kids achieve higher salaries? Upon

22:53

graduation rate. So you know I'm not

22:55

a total fact. The numbers. Person But

22:57

what math help me make these decisions. And

23:00

again there are these organizations Hobby make it

23:02

really clear for us to see the thing.

23:04

Yeah. That's what is it When Jack said

23:07

charity evaluation that was my follow presence. I'm

23:09

glad you answer that. To give well and

23:11

life you can see him. suitors are to

23:13

the starting points for people should I give

23:15

sort the research and we obviously will put

23:18

those links in the senate so that's really

23:20

useful. Rebecca I wanted to ask you so.

23:22

You're. So intimately familiar with. sigh And

23:25

the Fi mindset, right? And I

23:27

think lot of people try to

23:29

race to Fi. And I think

23:31

this is something we've tried to

23:33

really dispel that miss because frankly,

23:35

like. Giving. Away if you will

23:37

have. Wishing away ten or fifteen years

23:40

of your life makes little to no

23:42

sense, right? It's part of a holistic

23:44

wife and I think the argument that

23:46

you're making here is this is really

23:48

an integral part of a life well

23:50

lived spreads. I. Guess my question

23:52

now is is there some sort

23:55

of it being better to get

23:57

to fi and then to give.

24:00

More. Significantly and more spontaneously then

24:02

giving in smaller increments along the way. I

24:04

think that's like a natural question somebody's going

24:07

to have. Does it make sense to do

24:09

it along the way where if I can

24:11

give much larger donations in one fell swoop

24:13

and I think honestly, you get might have

24:16

already partially answer this in the sense that

24:18

are a I might be thinking along the

24:20

lines of the old school hey let's get

24:23

your name on our building somewhere right? Like

24:25

obviously that the him That's not something I

24:27

aspire to, but I think that's more akin

24:29

to that one large. Cutting a large

24:31

check? your local children's hospital or something like

24:34

that like as opposed to me be making

24:36

a difference all along the way. So I've

24:38

kind of ruff ruff We asked and answered

24:40

a question here. But and here's your thoughts

24:43

on the larger issue as he should, I

24:45

wait until I get supplies to I do

24:47

this all on the way. Is there some

24:50

magnitude where it matters more or less. Yeah.

24:53

So maybe some people think that can

24:55

be like a little hypocritical of me.

24:57

I guess I'll have one of those

24:59

like race or Fi. People worked as

25:01

hard as I pad. Got. Really

25:04

high paying jobs and left my job

25:06

and really didn't start systematically giving and

25:08

sell like right around the time that

25:10

I left my work. And

25:12

it's generally like I left my job

25:14

for years as it's. A. Big

25:16

worker of mine, I get that

25:19

big regret that I didn't start

25:21

doing that sooner As a bad

25:23

thing, that I only started donating

25:25

meaningful sums of money about four

25:27

years go. By. What?

25:30

I want to say is.

25:32

Like I got. A

25:34

guy Really get it. I get how it's hard

25:36

and I get higher. Scientists say that twenty

25:38

five times your annual expenditure is so that you

25:40

can leave your job or said or do

25:43

whatever it as a you need to do. And

25:45

so a it's a struggle. But

25:48

I also think habit formation is

25:50

real, right? So. If

25:52

you have never worked out in

25:55

your entire life, and

25:57

then you think you're going to work out and early

25:59

retirement And all of a sudden you've had 40 years

26:01

old, right? Your body's a little bit weaker. It's not

26:03

as strong as it used to be. You

26:06

are unlikely to start working out as

26:08

easily. Whereas if you've been working out

26:10

regularly and on a consistent basis, you

26:13

probably can do three times more

26:15

or four times more than you used

26:17

to. And so I think habit formation

26:19

is real. So if you start donating

26:21

now on your path to FI, and

26:23

that could look something like donating on

26:25

a monthly basis, where you're actually like

26:28

seeing, really seeing yourself giving some money

26:30

away, it's much easier to carry

26:32

that forward, right? So like I said earlier to

26:34

you guys, my husband and I just doubled our

26:36

donations. Had we never donated before, it

26:38

would have been really hard to give the amount that we're

26:40

giving now. And so all the

26:42

friction that goes into giving, right? Like

26:45

where you're gonna give, as I

26:47

said earlier, what you're gonna

26:49

give, right? So I could sit down and

26:51

think, do I wanna donate VTI or BND?

26:54

Do I wanna donate from my regular

26:56

brokerage account? Do I wanna open up

26:58

a donor advice fund and put money in

27:00

there and then donate from there? I had to

27:03

come to all these decisions on my own. And

27:05

so since I've come to those conclusions now, and

27:08

we can talk more about that, every month now,

27:10

it's just a click of a button for me.

27:12

I'm just like, this is what I'm donating.

27:14

Here are the charities that they're going into.

27:16

And then every six months or

27:18

every 12 months, I'm revisiting that strategy

27:20

and putting more thought into it. And

27:23

so I get it. I get that

27:25

it's hard. And I get that we

27:27

wanna reach that early retirement stage, but

27:30

there's so much room to give now.

27:32

And that's why I went and created

27:34

this thing called the philanthropy calculator to

27:37

show that if you did take an

27:39

income pledge like Jack, like 10%, or

27:42

even something way more doable, like giving

27:44

1% of your income annually

27:46

each year, like the one for the world pledge,

27:49

that it really doesn't add

27:51

that much time to

27:53

your F.I. timeline. So if you're

27:55

coming out of school, earning 60K a

27:58

year, saving 30%,

28:01

you have nothing in investments, it's going to take

28:03

you like 23 years to get to

28:06

early retirement, assuming nothing changes

28:08

with you at all.

28:10

And we know that's not true, right? Like,

28:13

you're probably going to get an income raise,

28:15

you're gonna figure out your expenses, right? But

28:17

like, that's probably standard for like, maybe, you

28:19

know, the demographic listening to this podcast, it's

28:22

going to take you 23 years, if you were to donate

28:24

1% of your income annually,

28:26

it's gonna add another six months of

28:29

working. That is like a

28:31

drop in the bucket for you to

28:33

donate 1% of that income, not just

28:35

through retirement, but through the rest of

28:37

time. So obviously, if you do something

28:39

like take a 10% pledge, yeah, that's

28:41

a commitment, right? Like, right, Jack, that's

28:43

a commitment that's gonna be like additional

28:45

years of working for you, moving

28:48

forward. But if you do something that's

28:50

much more doable, it's really not a big impact. And

28:52

what I'll also say is there's tons of other

28:54

things that will change your viewpoint,

28:56

right? Like, a lot of people might start off on the

28:58

path to Fi and think that they have 15 years

29:01

to go, and then all of a sudden, they have

29:03

six years to go because they got a

29:05

salary increase, or they got a huge

29:07

inheritance from a family member, or their

29:10

portfolios are doing way better than

29:12

what the 4% rule taught us it

29:14

was going to do, right? And so

29:16

I think when you look at the

29:18

math in that way, just like with

29:20

reaching Fi, or like how could I

29:22

ever retire early, when you just look

29:24

at the math, it helps you make

29:26

those decisions much, much more easily. I

29:29

think that's exactly right, Rebecca, and I would

29:31

make two points in addition to that. The

29:33

first one is, as someone who comes a

29:35

little bit more from the effective giving community

29:37

and a little bit less from the Fi

29:39

community, if you give 1% of

29:41

your income, and it slows down your retirement

29:43

by six months, and by

29:45

doing that, you can prevent roughly

29:48

15 children under five

29:50

dying for no good reason, that

29:53

is not a difficult moral trade off. That

29:56

is not a difficult moral trade off. And the

29:58

second thing I would say is There

30:00

is a lot of evidence that

30:02

the best donation opportunities are being

30:05

used up over time. So

30:07

if you're talking about a 20

30:09

year horizon for you to go

30:11

from graduating to financial independence, the

30:13

donation opportunities we have in 20 years, if

30:16

they follow the historical trend, will be much

30:18

less cost effective than the ones we have

30:20

now. And I'll give you a very obvious

30:22

example of this. We know that

30:25

there are high quality malaria vaccines coming

30:27

down the track. Two have been approved

30:29

for use with children

30:31

by the WHO in the last few

30:33

years. Neither of them is a silver

30:36

bullet. One has very difficult cold chain

30:38

logistics associated with it, which will make

30:40

it hard to deploy in remote areas

30:42

in hot countries. And neither

30:44

of them is particularly effective in comparison

30:46

to other vaccines, like for example, the

30:48

COVID vaccines were substantially more effective than

30:50

these. But what that means, because there

30:52

are other candidates in trials as well, is that

30:55

we shouldn't really expect to need to

30:57

spend an enormous amount of money on

30:59

malaria prevention in 20 years' time. But

31:02

right now, this year in 2024, 600,000 people are going to

31:04

die of malaria. And

31:08

we could prevent each one of those deaths

31:10

with an intervention that costs under $10. And

31:14

so if you do wait, you

31:16

should think about whether the donation opportunities you

31:18

have once you reach F.I. are going to

31:20

be as good as the ones that you

31:22

could be drip feeding into now. And

31:25

you can do both, right? Like, we can do

31:27

both things. So like, if I spend $40,000 a

31:29

year, right, and I need a million dollars a

31:31

year to retire early, that

31:37

a million dollars is not

31:39

going to just become zero, right? Like,

31:41

a lot of us are reading that Bill Perkins

31:43

book tie with zero. It's a really powerful messaging,

31:46

right? We're not going to die with zero, most

31:48

likely. We're probably going to die with money

31:50

left over. And so there's an incredible opportunity

31:52

to give now to people

31:55

or beings that really need help

31:57

today, and then also give large...

32:00

sums of money that have compounded

32:02

over time later on and do

32:04

really good with that. So for

32:07

me, I donate stock

32:09

regularly now, we

32:11

also donate 100% of proceeds from

32:13

yield and spread to effective

32:16

charities as well. So I look at that as like

32:18

time and skills donation, not just money

32:20

donation. And then upon

32:22

my death, even if I still want to give

32:24

some of that money to the next generation,

32:26

I've pledged to give 80%

32:29

of that wealth away upon my death.

32:31

Right? Because I'm going to be I'm not going to

32:33

draw down on that completely. And taking

32:36

4% per the 4% rule.

32:38

And by the way, I haven't even

32:40

really been doing that the past four

32:42

years. And so I know

32:44

that like, I'm probably going to

32:46

be okay. And so we can

32:48

give money now. And we

32:51

can give money later. And to me, that's

32:53

the best recipe to help with both habit

32:55

formation, but also

32:57

to tackle exactly saying

32:59

interventions today. And maybe

33:02

there'll be instead of anti malarial badness, as

33:04

we know, there's already anti malarial vaccines

33:06

coming out that will come later down

33:08

the line. I can be donating to that too. I've

33:11

been experimenting with this idea in my

33:13

mind, I'm not an economist. So maybe

33:15

some of your listeners, this will be

33:17

the point where I become thoroughly devalued

33:19

in their eyes. I'll try this

33:21

out with you. We all accept

33:23

in the Fi community, the idea of

33:25

compound interest. So you put

33:27

some money in now, and it grows

33:29

a lot because of the effects of

33:31

compound interest. I think there is something

33:33

called compound impact, which is if you

33:36

intervene now, and a child

33:38

under five doesn't die from vitamin A

33:40

deficiency, or diphtheria or tetanus or malaria,

33:43

that has a compounding effect. Because

33:45

that child can then go to school, that

33:48

child can then get a job, become really

33:50

productive, they can vote if they live in

33:52

a democracy, they can have a family. Also,

33:55

it will have a big effect

33:57

on their family. One of the biggest

33:59

things that stops women participating in

34:01

the workforce is when they need

34:03

to have many children because many

34:06

of them will die in infancy,

34:08

not to mention the moral cost

34:10

of losing a child which must

34:12

be just horrendous and unimaginable. And

34:15

so I also think you need to

34:17

weigh, if you drip feed

34:19

into your impact now, you will

34:22

have this compounding impact effect over

34:24

time. I feel like

34:26

if you wait a long

34:28

time and then make a big donation,

34:30

it's possible that even though the donation

34:32

is much larger, your actual overall impact

34:34

will be less because the cost of

34:36

doing good will have gone up in

34:38

the meantime. So you can sort of

34:40

see these things in parallel. Now I

34:42

don't actually know. I don't know that

34:44

impact compounds at 8% a year or

34:46

whatever the stock market is supposed

34:49

to go up by on average. And I

34:51

don't know that the cost of doing philanthropy

34:53

is going to change in the equivalent ratio.

34:55

But I do think this is something to think about,

34:57

which is you have the opportunity to intervene now in

34:59

a way that may do a lot of good over

35:01

time. So you should factor that in as well. I

35:04

love that. Yeah, I love that as

35:06

a thought experiment. And it's funny because

35:09

you mentioned a couple of minutes ago

35:11

and loosely paraphrasing, the highest quality donation

35:13

opportunities are being used up over time.

35:16

And I was actually 15, 20 minutes

35:18

ago, I was going to ask what

35:20

I thought was almost like a straw

35:22

man argument or something ridiculous. That was

35:24

a thought experiment of, hey, what does

35:26

this look like in a perfect world?

35:28

Because as I'm thinking about effective altruism,

35:30

okay, we all donate

35:32

to the highest value, let's say

35:35

malaria or mosquito nets of some

35:37

sort until that issue or disease,

35:39

etc, is eradicated. And then we

35:41

all move to the next and

35:43

it essentially cascades on down. In

35:46

my own brain, when I thought about that, I thought it

35:48

was so ridiculous that I didn't bring

35:50

it up at the time. But then hearing

35:52

you mention that, it seems like maybe that

35:55

would be the perfect world scenario. I

35:57

Think that's exactly right. So I'll give you two.

36:00

Really hopeful positive stories. Through a

36:02

massive international Esa and some individual

36:04

heroism, we were able to develop

36:06

a smallpox vaccine and deploy that

36:08

I think it was since deployed

36:10

in the fifties maybe six days

36:12

is estimated to a safe to

36:14

billion lives. No. One needs to

36:16

donate to Smallpox prevention now. Wilde.

36:18

Pouliot was eradicated about

36:20

two years ago. There

36:23

is some recurrence but they're a large

36:25

multinational Sookie that like the Bill Gates

36:27

among the different foundation and say a

36:30

retail don't have that is an ordinary

36:32

person making donations doesn't need to worry

36:34

about donating to polio prevents and now

36:36

say what we do a the time

36:39

it's we change the far of what

36:41

we think cost effectiveness is and in

36:43

need. Amazing world where we eradicate malaria

36:46

which I believe will happen during my

36:48

last time. We will move on to

36:50

the next problem. For. Sure. And

36:52

there are lots of problems that

36:55

we consistently eliminate. It really

36:57

is insane that we live in a world

36:59

where a child can get diarrhea and it

37:01

can kill them guys. Just crazy. It is

37:03

crazy that we live in this world. One.

37:06

A packet of oral rehydration

37:08

salts costs next to nothing

37:10

would prevent the happening. So.

37:13

We can live in a world where

37:15

we don't have to funds diarrhea treatment

37:17

in the same way because the water

37:19

is clean and. If. Anyone does

37:21

get sick, they can have access to

37:24

Rio dice insults so yeah I actually

37:26

think you're swim and is exactly right

37:28

It's maybe this isn't of really weird

37:30

and I like a champagne sounds and

37:32

relic. We set up one thing that's

37:34

how we how I pictured it literally

37:36

jack exactly how a person was is

37:38

probably one described to said sent a

37:40

socialist by myself ah Eloise Apple's stock

37:42

and. Giving. like you probably

37:44

like read about it right you probably

37:47

see documentary that the realities of these

37:49

problems are filling with left at like

37:51

you think i go running water we

37:53

both saw her that vitamin a deficiency

37:56

in spell south or that basic categories

37:58

surgeries was after that we We

38:00

have to solve for those things in the

38:02

United States where I live or the

38:04

UK where Jack lives. So that's not

38:07

the case everywhere in the world. And

38:09

so, you know, going back to that discussion

38:11

around like, if I'm going to give, I

38:13

want to give to something locally where I

38:15

can see the impact of it and I

38:18

can see those people or see those

38:20

animals or see those that are suffering. And

38:22

you can see that. Yes, you can see that. But

38:25

measuring the effects of that far

38:27

away, like the math behind that

38:29

is just so, so real for

38:31

me. And so it's not that

38:33

I don't want to give

38:36

locally to my community here in Ogden.

38:39

In fact, like I do volunteer work

38:41

with my skills, time and energy here.

38:44

But I can't really hop

38:46

on a plane and go over to

38:49

somewhere in Kenya or Nigeria

38:51

or Laos. I

38:54

don't really have the personal skills

38:56

to help administer immunizations.

38:58

I don't understand the local culture.

39:00

I won't necessarily have like a

39:02

great impact in that way that

39:05

I might locally hear my community

39:07

with more of my time and

39:09

my personal physical self there, which

39:12

is why I like to spend

39:14

some more of my time in that way, but then

39:16

send my money elsewhere where it really can do a

39:18

lot of good to causes or

39:20

problem areas that are still

39:23

incredibly neglected. A colleague

39:25

of mine and I'll say it's Kenan. So

39:27

Kenan, if you're listening to this, I didn't

39:29

steal it, have this great phrase, which was

39:32

give globally act locally. And I really like

39:34

that. Yeah, I love that. I

39:36

do want to come back because Rebecca, you mentioned

39:38

a couple of times that time and skill donation.

39:40

So we have two things to come back to

39:42

closing the loop is the nuts and bolts and

39:44

the time and skill donation. But

39:46

before we move on, yeah, talking about

39:48

these vaccines and thinking just again, very

39:51

viscerally because a lot of this stuff,

39:53

what compels you to take action? So

39:55

for instance, my uncle, my dad's brother

39:57

had polio like in his lifetime. That's

40:00

what's so crazy. This is not that long ago. And

40:02

then the remarkable nature of vaccines, which

40:05

have changed the world, right? And to

40:07

hear that there's a malaria vaccine coming,

40:10

it's incredible. And so it's so

40:12

interesting to think my brain

40:14

is going both ways of like, OK, obviously,

40:16

you've convinced me, right? On a lot of

40:18

levels, the effect of altruism and like, where

40:20

can you direct? But I think we also

40:22

need to be honest with human nature, right,

40:24

which is why I think both of you

40:26

have mentioned habits. And it almost sounds crass

40:29

in some sense to talk about, OK, for

40:31

$5 or $10, you

40:33

can save a life, which is

40:35

remarkable, and still understand the basic

40:37

humanity of sometimes people

40:39

need a little feedback, right?

40:41

Like, I think about giving to, I think

40:44

it was like donorschoose.org or something. It was

40:46

something like that, where I gave to a

40:48

classroom, and then they sent me handwritten notes

40:50

from the kids. And frankly, that felt really

40:52

good. That was pretty cool. There's

40:55

some interplay here between, I

40:58

think we'd all love to live in a

41:00

world where we could do this purely altruistically.

41:02

But I think we also need to understand

41:04

the basic nature of humanity, that some feedback

41:07

loop is important as well. I'd love to

41:09

hear your just general thoughts on that. Yeah,

41:11

I'd love to say this, which is if

41:14

you are giving because you

41:17

feel motivated to give,

41:19

like it's your moral obligation to give,

41:21

like Jack, right? Jack said, very, very

41:23

young age. I felt this moral obligation

41:25

to give. That is wonderful. And there

41:28

are a lot of people that that's

41:30

all the information that they need to

41:32

give away money. Not everyone is

41:34

like that. Everyone has problems. Everyone has issues.

41:36

And those problems are real. Those issues are

41:39

real. I'm not taking away from that at

41:41

all. But if you want to

41:43

just be a good person, like if you're

41:45

giving away these, you're like, you know what?

41:47

This makes me feel a little bit better.

41:49

It makes me feel a little less guilty.

41:52

That is OK, too. When

41:54

I pulled the early retirement trigger, it

41:56

was right in the middle of COVID.

41:59

Oh, wow. lot of people were struggling. They were

42:02

losing their jobs. They were in

42:04

contact with their friends. It

42:06

was a really hard time.

42:08

And I had got let

42:10

go. I'm doing air quotations.

42:12

From my job, I got

42:15

four months severance package, I volunteered

42:17

to be let go. And I

42:19

have that like, Fi golden parachute.

42:21

And so when I left the

42:23

workforce, and I had Fi, I felt

42:26

incredibly guilty. Like it took me

42:28

a while to feel comfortable with

42:30

the idea of being an early

42:32

retiree when not just people

42:34

across the world are suffering, but like

42:36

my immediate community and I really felt

42:38

that. And I actually use some

42:40

of that guilt as like, motivation

42:43

to give back. It's

42:45

a lot of it is what helped me found

42:47

healed and spread and put

42:50

time and energy into building that and

42:52

seeing how I could help my community

42:54

and my people around me during challenging

42:56

COVID times, as well

42:58

as create this outflow of money

43:00

towards effective charities for people, you

43:02

know, halfway across the world. And

43:04

so what I would say is,

43:07

it's okay. If, like

43:10

you feel guilty about giving, it's

43:12

okay, if some of it makes

43:15

you uncomfortable, right, but it's

43:17

all about really like thinking about what

43:19

your legacy is going to be in

43:21

your old age, like once you stop

43:23

working, like what do you want to been

43:25

known for? What makes you feel

43:27

good? I think there's nothing wrong with that

43:30

sort of level of hedonism, if

43:32

you will. I also

43:34

feel very strongly that giving

43:37

cost effectively can be rewarding

43:39

on a personal level. And

43:41

if I can plug the nonprofit that

43:43

I lead at the moment, One for

43:46

the World, every three

43:48

months, we send every donor an

43:50

impact report showing exactly what they

43:52

donated, which nonprofits they supported, what

43:55

the outputs of that were, so

43:57

bed nets or vitamin A supplements.

44:00

vaccines and what the impact of that

44:02

was, so how many deaths they have

44:04

prevented. And then we include a story

44:07

from someone who has

44:09

received one of these services

44:11

through our amazing recommended non-profits.

44:14

And I find that intensely rewarding, but

44:17

also you are right. Human

44:19

nature is human nature. And if the

44:21

thing that is stopping a listener from

44:23

getting into this is, well, I want

44:25

a tighter feedback loop, do both.

44:28

Give a slightly smaller amount to effective

44:30

charities and give something

44:32

locally. I took a pledge

44:34

to give 10% of my income away. I give

44:36

10% cost effectively. I give about 2.5% for a mixture

44:39

of things that

44:42

I think are important and really hard to

44:44

measure. And then one donation that is really

44:46

quite shameful that I'm not going to tell

44:48

you about, that is just a personal woman

44:51

fuzzies and is definitely not cost effective. And

44:54

that's okay. Because that's part

44:56

of helping me to do my philanthropy

44:58

is that I want to give 30

45:00

pounds a month to this really, really,

45:02

really non-cost effective charity that is related

45:04

to rugby, which is not one of

45:06

the most high priority cause areas in

45:08

the world. But that's okay. I

45:10

love that too. I've met a lot of

45:12

people within the effective altruism community that I've

45:14

taken a pledge like 10%. And they still

45:16

keep around, you know, for lack of a

45:18

better phrase, like a

45:21

fun fund for giving. Because,

45:23

you know, if your friend does come to

45:25

you and say, Hey, donate to my charity for a marathon,

45:27

you don't want to go back to them and say, No

45:29

way Jose, I only donate to effective

45:31

charities and your cause is ridiculous. And

45:33

I'm not donating to that. I don't

45:35

think that's super healthy. I do think

45:38

it's an opportunity to have a constructive

45:40

conversation with someone about like, why you

45:42

choose to donate where and why. But

45:44

you still can create those opportunities for

45:46

yourself to donate to things

45:48

that give you those warm and fuzzies.

45:50

And I do the exact same as

45:52

well. I do it a little more

45:54

with my time. Like I said, you

45:56

know, for example, I volunteer with my

45:58

local adaptive ski group

46:01

here in Austin, Utah. Do

46:03

I think of the money that I'm giving

46:05

away is much more effective? I'm very much...

46:07

it's not just a spank. I'm very much

46:09

aware that I think it's much more effective

46:11

use of my resources. But I

46:13

really take in a lot of joy

46:15

from the time that I spend working

46:18

with people with disabilities out on the

46:20

mountain. I love being outside. I love

46:22

helping out. It's a great community. And

46:24

so I think we can do it

46:26

all. We can donate to rugby causes.

46:28

We can donate to our local adaptive

46:30

ski clinics and we can also give

46:32

money away for specialist surgeries abroad. And

46:34

it's imperative that people know that we

46:36

are not on this podcast to try

46:38

and shame people into other types of

46:40

philanthropy. Apart from anything else, we should be

46:42

extremely cautious about saying that we know anything

46:45

in this space. We think certain things are

46:47

true and we are updating all the time.

46:50

And then also, I think

46:53

it's really wrong to

46:55

suggest that people who have a

46:57

personal connection to a cause or

47:00

want to support a charity that they see locally

47:03

are doing something that's wrong. That is net positive.

47:05

That is a good thing to do. The

47:07

only thing that I think is actually shameful

47:10

is if you go through your whole life

47:12

and never do any philanthropy. Because

47:14

if you live in a high income country

47:16

and you have disposable income, you are in

47:18

the top few percent of the whole world

47:21

in terms of how privileged you are. And

47:23

if you literally went through your whole life

47:26

and you think that every single thing that

47:28

you ever get is to be spent on

47:30

your own consumption, I think that is shameful.

47:32

But nothing else, no other type

47:34

of philanthropy or even the patient philanthropy

47:36

approach of waiting and giving later, none

47:38

of these things should be shamed at

47:40

all. I think it's a huge, huge

47:42

error when people imply that it's morally

47:45

wrong to do other types of philanthropy

47:47

that aren't cost-effective giving. Yeah, and

47:49

I'm glad you brought that up. And I think what

47:51

I'm hearing is painting the picture of

47:53

a balancing act. And

47:55

that there's no wrong answer here. But

47:58

I think, Rebecca, how you... you were saying

48:00

about, okay, maybe I think effectively

48:03

globally, but then in a

48:05

much more local nature, I give

48:07

my time and skills and money

48:09

certainly. But it's like, that's how

48:11

I'm kind of picturing a cohesive

48:14

plan for myself is I can

48:17

balance those two. And there's nothing

48:19

wrong with that. So that, again, when my

48:21

neighbor comes up to me and says,

48:23

Hey, we're going to do a 5k

48:26

for the local cancer foundation.

48:29

Okay, well, that's something I can still donate

48:31

to, obviously. And we're not saying you can't,

48:33

I mean, clearly, I nobody's getting that picture.

48:35

But it's important to understand there is at

48:38

least how I'm seeing it like there can

48:40

be this balancing act. And that's really great.

48:44

Thanks for listening to choose a five and for

48:46

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48:48

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49:08

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49:10

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49:12

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49:14

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49:16

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49:19

it directly supports the show. Thanks for being

49:21

part of our community and for your support.

49:25

The one thing I did want to ask so,

49:27

okay, these effective charities, and this is more of

49:29

a nuts and bolts question. So maybe we could

49:31

transition into that because I think as you know,

49:34

people in the five community, we have our questions

49:36

our list of am I doing this right?

49:38

And maybe it's the old type A's

49:40

drivers and us but I'm always

49:42

worried about donations getting eaten up to

49:45

maybe admin costs. And you hear some

49:47

of the negative nature of that. But

49:49

even just like because I did something

49:52

Sub optimally, let's say so if I were to,

49:54

let's say for argument sake, want to give $1,000

49:56

in a year to A. The

50:00

regular charity is it better to give it

50:02

in one fell swoop. Where. Is

50:04

it better to give it in eighty dollar

50:06

monthly income? It's Is that something that's that

50:08

I should even be thinking about? Or am

50:11

I really just getting down into the weeds

50:13

of something that's not important? There.

50:15

Is some small benefit to the charity

50:17

of you doing recurring giving each month

50:19

which is many of your listeners will

50:22

have work to businesses that psycho some

50:24

monthly recurring revenue. Charities are the same

50:26

That helps him to plan most effectively.

50:28

If you give once a year they

50:31

have to wait three hundred and sixty

50:33

four days to find out if you're

50:35

gonna read Op's next year. But

50:38

I wouldn't over state this. And

50:40

it is true that a lot

50:42

of philanthropy happens in December. Even

50:44

as someone running an effective giving

50:46

charity, we see twenty to thirty

50:48

percent of our annual volume go

50:50

in December. that the end of

50:52

the tax? Yeah, And especially

50:54

at a thousand dollars. In as long

50:57

as it's happening every twelve months, I

50:59

wouldn't massively beat yourself up about not

51:01

doing regular giving. I. Would also

51:04

just mixer a boxer. Rebecca's point about

51:06

habit forming night and I have seen

51:08

people who intended to day night and

51:10

amounts at the end of the year

51:12

and then the prices to the cost

51:14

of living went off and then I

51:16

felt a bit poorer than they did

51:19

the saw an said I chose not

51:21

to donate so much and actually probably

51:23

rushed to me. They were in the

51:25

same financial position they were in before

51:27

but. The. Longer you wait the

51:29

more things can distract you or undermine your

51:32

results. So I guess on the mods in

51:34

I would say done a monthly. Yeah.

51:36

That certainly makes sense or right. It doesn't

51:38

sound like a sigh. a terribly massive decision.

51:41

Either way, I'm I'm not going to go

51:43

wrong if I eggs, but again, I am

51:45

just trying to think of going to do

51:47

this up the my first something simple that

51:50

would help the charity. It's good to know

51:52

South Rebecca. Let's get back to some other

51:54

things you mentioned before about Nuts and Bolts

51:56

so you mention don't advise finds donation of

51:58

appreciated stock vs Can. Can you

52:01

give Jessica a super quick overview of

52:03

this and, and maybe we can, we're

52:05

reference some articles on your side in

52:07

the shown? Yes sir sell a

52:09

clear that getting die which has all

52:12

the information in there. They really the

52:14

every day donor would need to know

52:16

about. You know how to give whether

52:18

it's. Cash. Whether it's shares

52:20

of a find, Whether it's eat yes

52:23

and had a given attacks optimized way.

52:25

The. Long, skinny, Sort of

52:28

a is like, obviously

52:30

operationally. For. the donor just giving

52:32

cause it's really the as right as

52:34

he can just or your checking account

52:36

into whatever side or you can impair

52:38

your credit card race and that money

52:40

just close to the charity right away

52:43

the most easily I think where people

52:45

get tripped up as they try to

52:47

give and attacks optimized flag but the

52:49

reality is you have to be giving

52:51

five figures away. Were last, Not always.

52:53

This isn't a Roth Ira. Yet.

52:55

To be giving five figures way and

52:58

meeting or exceeding the standard the ducks

53:00

and to get some benefit from getting

53:02

to public charities for the most part

53:04

Five oh one. C Three or decisions.

53:07

And so. That's the

53:09

skinny and terms as like

53:11

how much now. From. When

53:14

you give away stocks or bonds

53:16

on a regular basis if you

53:18

donate those straight from your regular

53:20

brokerage account. You. Don't get

53:22

taxed on the gains from those. So.

53:25

Like the model that I used

53:27

with my husband as we donate

53:29

V T I to his organization

53:31

called Give Directly and We Donate

53:33

are shares that have appreciated them

53:35

up and says that way when

53:37

we are selling stocks to use

53:39

as part of our everyday standard

53:41

part of the four percent rule

53:44

we are selling stocks at have

53:46

appreciated. The least so that we are tax

53:48

the least on the site. And. They

53:50

when we give away stocks to charities,

53:52

it's we are not taxed on the

53:54

game. That's. Why we choose the

53:56

ones that have appreciated the most and that

53:58

is regardless of whether. Donated One

54:01

charity shares rushers whatever amount

54:03

you giving. However, If

54:05

you are dominating and you are

54:07

looking to get a tax, dead ducks

54:09

and. You. Have to you

54:11

meet or exceed the center deduction

54:14

here in the Us. And.

54:16

So a lot of people got fucked

54:18

up with that. Because he charity might

54:20

say make your tax. Deductible donations

54:22

today which is fair. It's fair

54:24

that they are saying now, but

54:26

it's not exactly clear. It's not.

54:29

Exactly true. Your donation is

54:31

only tax deductible if you

54:33

are exceed eight. You know

54:36

that thirteen thousand plus. Mm.

54:39

Yeah. You also see real Cds and

54:41

still talk about this with the mortgage

54:43

answer selection as well. It fresh, oh,

54:45

your mortgage interest starts about from yeah

54:47

I guess theoretically, but only if you

54:49

go over the center's at auction and

54:51

it's only for the portion over. so

54:53

it's similar in that regard. so it's

54:55

true, but not the entire picture in

54:57

as. Gray. And I know it's

55:00

hard for a cherry to come at you

55:02

and say hey make your tax deductible donation

55:04

to that's the only as X y Z

55:06

I know little up the as I knew

55:09

are sitting there looking at okay and going

55:11

oh I only wanted Johnny now because the

55:13

seems complicated and so it's a better one

55:16

of the pain points the thing like that

55:18

personal finance meets giving communities that I'm trying

55:20

to tackle and trying to bath understand and

55:22

it please reach out to me and have

55:25

a dialogue with the about this is like

55:27

I don't give people better. And for

55:29

nice and around personal

55:31

finances and donating without actually

55:34

making it harder. For.

55:36

Them to donate because you're adding

55:38

all these extra layers and are

55:41

what has a very complex taxistan

55:43

here in the U. Pray or

55:45

with him. And so I wrote

55:47

this four per block series on

55:50

donor advice. Fun and if you

55:52

don't know that as it's a

55:54

tax advantaged accounts for give and.

55:57

Which. if you go ahead and

55:59

like google don't advice funds, like most of

56:01

the results that you're going to get are

56:03

ads from banks or providers

56:05

about the donor advice funds. But there's a lot

56:07

of things that a donor advice

56:09

fund is wonderful for, but there's a lot

56:11

of things that you don't really need to

56:14

use it for. So I think the majority

56:16

of people that I speak with about their

56:18

finances and I have a coaching program, I

56:20

help people learn about their plans for giving

56:23

and help them optimize with their

56:25

financial plans for that. One of

56:27

the things that they run into is like, oh my gosh,

56:29

should I be opening all these specialized bank accounts

56:31

so that I could give and then I can

56:33

be the best donor that I could possibly

56:35

be. But the reality is, if

56:37

you want to donate cash on a regular basis

56:39

and you're donating four

56:42

figures, go ahead, do

56:44

that. Do that on a monthly basis. There's not

56:47

huge ways to get more tax optimized

56:49

from that. But if you are

56:51

donating more meaningful sums of money, like

56:53

five figures a year, then let's talk,

56:55

let's research it. You should be talking

56:57

to your financial advisor, you should be talking

57:00

to your tax accountant, you should be learning

57:02

about the best way to do that. Not

57:04

just because it saves you money, but because

57:06

it actually means more money is going to

57:08

the charity itself in the end. Yeah,

57:11

without a doubt. This is complex,

57:13

but it's important. So that's why

57:15

dialing in on this is

57:17

so important. So we've said before in

57:19

the past that if you're going to

57:21

donate to a donor advised fund and

57:23

there's that interplay with the standard deduction,

57:25

right? So in theory, could

57:27

you put multiple years of donations

57:29

into your donor advised fund in

57:32

one calendar year? Because then it

57:34

increases the likelihood that you'll be over

57:37

the standard deduction and you'll actually get

57:39

a tax deduction for it. So that's

57:41

one potential strategy. Yeah, that's actually some

57:43

of the myths busting around DAF that

57:45

I want to do. Yeah,

57:47

which is that's how DAS

57:49

are actually advertised to us, right?

57:52

So the methodology that you just

57:54

put forth is called bundling or

57:56

bunching, where you take donations from

57:58

multiple years into one. I'm what

58:00

the you could johnny. Five thousand dollars

58:02

each year over the next three years.

58:05

Or he take all those three years

58:07

of five thousand art and put it

58:10

into one endzone. Fifteen thousand Dollars. Bring.

58:12

You a bad the standard to

58:14

ducks and and then you'll be

58:16

able to make those donations accidents

58:18

their the believe that you need

58:20

to put that into a donor

58:22

advice. Fine for that result to

58:25

take place, but that's not

58:27

true. You can donate fifteen

58:29

thousand. Dollars. In cash today.

58:32

And exceed the standard their accent.

58:34

You can also johnny fifteen thousand

58:36

dollars worth of appreciated stock and

58:38

get that taxes accent. or you

58:41

could put it in a D

58:43

F. One. A special about

58:45

that? Yeah, yeah, that's the

58:47

a cast donation doesn't have

58:50

and is I. Suck.

58:52

Deletion. other half is you can

58:54

put all that money into adorable

58:57

and today guess that the ducks.

58:59

And today. Slowly

59:01

make your donations over. Try.

59:04

Now. with fifteen thousand dollars or may

59:06

not be as impact. Will let the banana

59:08

hundred. Thousand dollars. For. You're not

59:10

quite sure. You on a journey all

59:12

of your one hundred thousand dollars to

59:14

one specific organization? Maybe there might be

59:16

a different intervention you want to look

59:18

at Two or three years down the

59:20

road, you can than say donate. Twenty.

59:23

Thousand Dollars today, twenty Thousand Dollars tomorrow, and

59:25

so on and so forth. So that is

59:27

really what a special. About the Df.

59:30

The. Second thing, that's also really special

59:32

about the Df Id: you can

59:34

automate the donations or. Edgy. so let's

59:37

say Ira that guy. I only don't

59:39

need to one or two series. I

59:41

really care about the maybe brad you

59:43

donate to a hundred Harrys. Every

59:45

mile race at twelve thousand transactions that

59:47

you have to do a year you

59:49

can just sat taxes them up and

59:51

it the i put your one hundred

59:53

thousand dollars and today and or to

59:55

do all those grants for you over

59:57

time to those are the two special

59:59

thing. about a DAS that everyone should

1:00:01

know about on this call. Yeah, and

1:00:04

I'm glad you clarified because in my

1:00:06

head and how we've described it previously

1:00:09

was also how you described it with the

1:00:11

donor advised fund. But I think the clarification

1:00:13

that is so important, I think I took

1:00:15

it as a given that, okay,

1:00:17

in this hypothetical, you wanna give $5,000 a

1:00:19

year for the next three years and you

1:00:21

put $15,000 in donor advised fund, then

1:00:25

you just give it out over time. But

1:00:27

like you're saying, you could just give it

1:00:29

all to the charity now and just essentially

1:00:31

circumvent the donor advised fund. There's no point

1:00:33

in the donor advised fund in that regard.

1:00:35

So it's more, it allows you to get

1:00:39

that tax deduction in one fell swoop in

1:00:41

one tax year, but only

1:00:43

if essentially you're going to give

1:00:46

this out over time or want

1:00:48

some optionality for potentially giving to

1:00:50

different charities in the future. So

1:00:53

obviously if you made the donation all in

1:00:55

one fell swoop, you would get the tax

1:00:57

deduction in the current year. Right, and in

1:00:59

the spirit of fire too, right? Like let's

1:01:01

say you have a regular brokerage account with

1:01:04

Vanguard or Fidelity or Charles Schwab where

1:01:06

the fees are really low and you're

1:01:08

just donating to stock directly to charity.

1:01:10

There's very few fees associated with investing.

1:01:14

In the spirit of fire, I'll say like

1:01:16

there are more fees associated with

1:01:18

donor advised funds. And so

1:01:20

when you invest your portfolio

1:01:22

within that sort of account,

1:01:25

again, you're also potentially not necessarily like

1:01:27

this is a guarantee, but you're potentially

1:01:29

lowering the amount that you could be

1:01:32

donating to an organization because you put

1:01:34

it in a DAF. So

1:01:37

in some ways it could be a hindrance

1:01:39

unless you're really putting in large,

1:01:41

large sums of money that are growing over

1:01:43

time and you can make up for those

1:01:45

fees. But I just wanted to make that

1:01:47

clear to listeners as well. Yeah,

1:01:50

no, that's very important. And just kind

1:01:52

of going back real quick to the

1:01:54

donating appreciated stock or funds, et cetera.

1:01:56

Because I think most people just don't

1:01:58

have a sense. of just like, again,

1:02:01

the nuts and bolts of how this works.

1:02:03

So let's say hypothetically, you bought a mutual

1:02:05

fund for $1,000 and,

1:02:07

or obviously multiple shares of

1:02:10

that, that added to $1,000 X number of years

1:02:12

ago, 10 years ago, now it's worth $10,000. So

1:02:15

if you wanted to make a $10,000 donation to a

1:02:17

charity, I think

1:02:19

what most people would expect is,

1:02:22

okay, I have to sell this stock,

1:02:24

I will get $10,000 of proceeds, but

1:02:28

built in there was a $9,000 long-term capital gain, right?

1:02:33

So that's going to be taxed at 15%. So

1:02:35

come tax time, they're gonna be looking at

1:02:38

roughly, what, $1,400 or 1,400 and change of

1:02:40

tax liability, that

1:02:44

if they were actually netted out, okay, they're only

1:02:46

left with $8,600 or some such. So

1:02:49

do they give an $8,600 donation at that point? Do

1:02:52

they give 10,000, but then it's really 11,400 because

1:02:56

they had to pay this tax on it?

1:02:58

So there's some interplay there of like, okay,

1:03:00

what am I actually doing? As opposed to,

1:03:02

like you're saying, you can just donate the

1:03:05

appreciated stock. So you can donate the $10,000

1:03:07

of stock in that case. And

1:03:10

you should, you should. Like there's really no

1:03:13

scenarios in which you should

1:03:15

sell stock and then donate

1:03:17

it. But nobody knows that, that's the

1:03:19

beautiful part about this. And nobody knows

1:03:21

that because no one's advertising that to

1:03:24

us because no one makes money off of

1:03:26

that, right? I mean, unfortunately, I have to

1:03:28

just be honest. No,

1:03:30

absolutely. I mean, that's, it's incentives rule

1:03:32

the world, right? So that's important. So

1:03:34

in that case, I think most people

1:03:36

then again, get caught up in, how

1:03:38

do I actually donate appreciated stock? Like

1:03:41

what are the, what happens? Like

1:03:43

if I have a Vanguard account or a

1:03:45

Fidelity account, like just some shares sitting in

1:03:47

my tax a little brokerage account, and I

1:03:49

want to give to one of these organizations,

1:03:52

do I initiate it? Do I call up

1:03:54

Fidelity or Vanguard? Do I have

1:03:56

to liaise with the, if that's even a

1:03:58

word with the charity? How the heck do

1:04:00

I do this? So just like with a

1:04:03

DAF and you can do automated giving, some

1:04:05

banks allow for this. Most traditional

1:04:07

banks, though, what you would do is,

1:04:09

they have a form it might call

1:04:11

asset gifting form, something like that. So

1:04:13

if you just go on your bank's

1:04:16

website, search that term, giving, charitable giving,

1:04:18

something like that, a form will come

1:04:20

up and it will be, it will

1:04:22

ask you to select the account that

1:04:24

you wanna donate from. It

1:04:26

will ask you to select how

1:04:29

many shares of whatever stock, bond,

1:04:31

fund ETF that you want. And

1:04:34

then you will choose the tax lot that

1:04:36

you wanna give it from. So I wanna

1:04:38

give five shares from this tax line. So

1:04:40

I might write one share of

1:04:42

DTI, comma, January

1:04:45

1st, 2001, whatever I bought it, right? And

1:04:47

so I'm being very clear that I'm giving

1:04:49

that stock that I give the

1:04:52

charities name and then I just sign

1:04:54

and date. And so there are definitely

1:04:56

ways of automating there's third parties too.

1:04:58

But for me, honestly, it takes two

1:05:00

seconds to just say, here's the shares

1:05:02

I wanna give. And I like to

1:05:04

control it a little bit because I wanna

1:05:06

look at the tax lots. Like if

1:05:08

I bought 10 shares January and then I bought

1:05:10

20 shares in March and once I run through

1:05:12

my shares in January, I'm gonna say, okay, I

1:05:15

wanna now go through my shares that I bought

1:05:17

in March. And then it's just literally the click

1:05:19

of a button. So each month when I go

1:05:21

through my finances, I

1:05:24

sell stock for my portfolio. So I can

1:05:26

live off of it as an early retiree.

1:05:28

And so I go in and say, okay,

1:05:30

I'm gonna sell these shares because I'm not

1:05:32

really earning that much income now, right? So

1:05:34

I do go ahead and sell that. And

1:05:36

then I, in the same vein, I just

1:05:38

go ahead, okay, I'm donating these stocks and

1:05:40

it takes a second. Amazing, that's

1:05:42

really, really helpful. Thank you for going

1:05:44

through that. Cause yeah, again, these little

1:05:46

things, these little points of friction that

1:05:48

hold people up, right? It's again, it's

1:05:50

understanding human nature. We've been talking about

1:05:52

that. That's really been a through line

1:05:55

a lot of this conversation. It's like,

1:05:57

okay, the behavioral, the friction, how do

1:05:59

I overcome it? So thank you for

1:06:01

dialing in. And what I will say is like,

1:06:04

if you are a person that just loves

1:06:06

being operationally very effective, and like a little

1:06:08

fee here and there doesn't bother you, open

1:06:10

up a donor advice fund, because you can

1:06:12

just do that once. And then it's done

1:06:14

for you for the rest of time. You

1:06:16

don't have to choose the shares, you don't

1:06:18

have to choose any of these things. You

1:06:20

don't have to fill out that paperwork and

1:06:22

sign it, or not paperwork, but e-paperwork and

1:06:25

sign it, right? So if you are someone

1:06:27

who just wants to set it and forget

1:06:29

it, because you think, you know, I might

1:06:31

not get to this or it could be

1:06:33

hard, go ahead, open a donor advice fund.

1:06:35

It's totally worth it then. And you can still

1:06:37

open up a donor advice fund with our friendly

1:06:40

for the people banks like Fidelity,

1:06:42

Charles Schwab, so on and so

1:06:44

forth. Nice. Yeah, we obviously don't

1:06:46

love to give like specific financial

1:06:49

advice here. That's always dangerous on

1:06:51

a podcast. But I personally opened

1:06:53

up a Fidelity charitable account. I

1:06:55

think at the time I did

1:06:57

the research, it was the

1:06:59

lowest minimum, which again, overcoming friction. I think

1:07:01

Vanguard had a much more significant minimum contribution.

1:07:04

I don't know if that's still the

1:07:06

case. Are there any other that kind of

1:07:08

rise to the top level that you would

1:07:10

say just offhand that you've seen

1:07:12

people talk about? I think the ones that you mentioned

1:07:14

are great. I think Fidelity and Charles

1:07:17

Schwab are really comparable. You're

1:07:19

right. Vanguard has a much greater

1:07:21

minimum. If you go to my

1:07:23

website, Yield and spread.org and check

1:07:25

out the four part series, DAF

1:07:27

blog post, in the fourth post,

1:07:29

you can go through and see a comparison

1:07:32

of providers and who you might want to

1:07:34

work with in opening up a DAF. Brilliant.

1:07:37

That's absolutely perfect. And everything we've talked about in this

1:07:39

episode, we'll have in the show notes for sure. All

1:07:42

right. Well, I think we're wrapping up here

1:07:44

and this has been absolutely wonderful. So incredibly

1:07:46

helpful. I really appreciate both of you coming

1:07:49

on. Jack, I wanted to throw it to

1:07:51

you for final thoughts. Is there

1:07:53

A place that, so someone's listening to this

1:07:56

episode. The Thing that we talk about most

1:07:58

in. In

1:08:00

action. That is what separates us I

1:08:02

think from any other community online or

1:08:04

in the pot guessing world that. Our

1:08:06

people take action to make their lives better and

1:08:08

hopefully to make their community in the world better.

1:08:10

So. Where. Does someone go Once they

1:08:12

had stop and as a person I love

1:08:15

this. I'm one of the things I have

1:08:17

to do on focus so the time is

1:08:19

say if he found this convincing don't think

1:08:21

what I was interesting and I get over

1:08:23

the a day actually do something about it.

1:08:26

So a really easy action is to go

1:08:28

and read the Life You Can Save by

1:08:30

Peter Singer or Doing Good Better by Will

1:08:32

Mccaskill which are both excellent entry points to

1:08:34

this world and were a big part of

1:08:37

Rebecca my journey into effect of giving. I.

1:08:39

Was also thinking how different types of

1:08:41

listener my interact with This and if

1:08:43

you are a normal person aiming for

1:08:45

financial independence I would encourage you to

1:08:47

think about getting one percent of your

1:08:49

income is actively he would say down

1:08:51

your posture as I very much and

1:08:53

you will do a staggering amount of

1:08:55

goods in the meantime. But. It's

1:08:57

possible that you've already achieved a thigh

1:08:59

and in that case I would say

1:09:01

to you, is it possible that you

1:09:03

have a single liquidity of and coming

1:09:05

up at a something like you're going

1:09:07

to receive an inheritance? Maybe you and

1:09:09

stock can accompany the scan. I I

1:09:12

may be your wealth is growing, not

1:09:14

shrinking because it's performing better, In which

1:09:16

case, think about making a more substantial

1:09:18

donation and then my final please, if

1:09:20

you are in a position where you

1:09:22

intend to give more than a million

1:09:24

dollars, you must take advice on how

1:09:26

to do that. Because. Unlike

1:09:29

in the way that we invest in the

1:09:31

financial incentives community, you are basically picking winners

1:09:33

and losers in chassis because there is not

1:09:35

a charitable he cs where you can invest

1:09:38

equally in a nice number of and take

1:09:40

the average performance. You are going to put

1:09:42

the majority of the into a small number

1:09:44

of charities and if you think it would

1:09:46

be insanity to put a million dollars into

1:09:49

one stuck in the stock market or even

1:09:51

for stocks in the stock market without doing

1:09:53

an enormous amount of research and taking advice,

1:09:55

he would also be insanity for you to

1:09:58

just pick for. Charities and Permitting. Those

1:10:00

interested if you are in a position to do that.

1:10:02

Because. You have a chief on Us

1:10:04

independence or maybe you have a liquidity of and

1:10:06

coming out them? Please please get in touch and

1:10:08

I am one of the people. You can do

1:10:11

this for you, but there are other excellent people

1:10:13

out there he can help you to make incredibly

1:10:15

cost effective tennis. Great. Advice and

1:10:17

that's a perfect way because I was going

1:10:19

as okay, how can people get in touch

1:10:21

with each of you Sir Jack to snag

1:10:23

one summer so you can reach me through

1:10:25

the website of Once of the World which

1:10:28

is one for the well.org that's the one,

1:10:30

the numeral, not the word I am actually

1:10:32

transitioning out of Onto the World. I'm not

1:10:34

entirely sure if that would have happens by

1:10:36

the time this for cost is released, but

1:10:39

if so, you can find me on linked

1:10:41

in there are two, just Lewis's if he

1:10:43

find the guy who does a lot of

1:10:45

production in Hollywood. On films.is the

1:10:48

wrong guy Last. That's.

1:10:50

Fantastic and Rebecca where can people

1:10:52

reads? yeah yeah you can reach

1:10:55

at me and yelled and spread.org

1:10:57

I'd love to hear from you

1:10:59

as a bunch of things that

1:11:01

I mentioned already that I won't

1:11:03

be calculator are giving guy and

1:11:06

the coaching program. I personally love

1:11:08

to meet you if you are

1:11:10

on the path, advice or thinking

1:11:12

about getting and just want a

1:11:14

little that of love with your

1:11:17

financial plans to see if at

1:11:19

ease of or doable. I

1:11:21

would love to chat such as reach. Out to me

1:11:23

that amazing! Thank you both for comment on

1:11:25

this is really really a wonderful upset. I

1:11:28

appreciate your time and fab. Thanks for

1:11:30

having spread are uninsured! Thank.

1:11:32

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