0:01

The television. Podcasts.

0:06

Coming

0:09

up on Chopper's Politics.

0:11

What's happening now with the

0:13

likes of SUNAC and Jeremy Hunt?

0:16

taking over in a form of coup

0:18

because that's essentially what it is. The

0:20

establishment have taken back

0:22

control

0:24

from the people who asked to take back

0:26

control from Brussels.

0:30

Hello and welcome to Chopper's politics

0:32

I'm Christopher Hope, the associate editor

0:35

at the Telegraph. I'm bringing you a

0:37

bones addition for Chopper's politics

0:39

listeners don't say I don't treat you.

0:41

Later this week, I'll bring an episode in

0:43

reaction to Jeremy Hunt's autumn

0:46

statement and looks set to be

0:48

a bruising one as the chancellor battles

0:50

to balance the books against the headwind

0:52

of a lot of cross conservative

0:55

MPs. A

0:56

few days ago at the Telegraph, I reported

0:58

how thousands of people have joined,

1:01

Reform UK, which emerged

1:03

from the ashes of the Brexit party,

1:06

after the twenty nineteen general

1:08

election. And these numbers should

1:10

worry, conservatives, central office.

1:12

Not at least because reform UK does

1:15

well. when people are polled and

1:17

asking how they might vote at the next general

1:19

election. wanted to explore this potential

1:22

threat to the Tory party ahead

1:24

of the autumn statement So I

1:26

headed to rather swanky block

1:28

of flats on the South Bank of the River

1:31

Thames, quite near the House

1:33

of Parliament to meet up with Richard

1:35

Tice. the leader of reform

1:37

UK.

1:39

Richard

1:39

Ties, welcome to ChopperFoltic's podcast.

1:42

Great to be with you, Chris. Great to have you on. We're here in

1:44

in your flat our department looking

1:46

over the House of Commons, looking over Millbank.

1:48

Powers in touching distance for you, isn't it?

1:50

Well, I can see Working distance

1:53

office over there, I can see parliament

1:55

over there. Big Bend, what is Reform

1:58

UK? Reform UK. It's

1:59

a party that believes that this is a

2:02

great country that is

2:05

full of so much potential that

2:07

is being wasted because

2:09

we are badly managed by

2:11

politicians We're badly managed

2:13

by civil servants, and

2:16

we're badly governed by institutions such

2:18

as the cronyism of the House of Lords,

2:21

the bias of the BBC, the

2:23

incompetence of

2:25

some of the Quangos. It's

2:28

an incredible nation. So much potential

2:31

and we just feel we

2:33

can do so much better, but it requires

2:35

real change, real reform.

2:38

And we've

2:39

got to do it now because

2:41

the longer this incompetence goes

2:43

on and the longer our

2:45

public services deteriorate the

2:48

longer our performance goes

2:50

downhill, then the harder

2:52

it is to get it back. And You

2:55

can tell by the mood of the nation at

2:57

the moment. People are despairing.

2:59

People are cross. People

3:01

are losing home in so many

3:03

ways. And I think

3:05

there's so much potential, but

3:07

it's being wasted. And

3:10

the zero prospect that this

3:12

conservative government under whatever

3:14

leadership it is this week. I mean, we're just losing

3:16

touch as to who's running what department

3:18

when. but they will make no

3:20

difference, no change whatsoever over

3:23

the next two years. It was born out of

3:25

the Brexit party, which you and

3:27

Nigel Farage ran at the twenty nineteen

3:29

general election. Why reform

3:32

is because you think there's something broken in the country

3:34

in a sense that's what people vote for. what

3:36

you say is what you get to. What you see is what you

3:38

get. Brexit was about a

3:41

plea from the country for change.

3:44

a recognition that something was going badly

3:46

wrong. And then

3:49

Boris Johnson was given this huge majority.

3:51

to get Brexit done. And

3:54

all that has happened is that

3:56

Brexit has been done very badly

3:58

so far. It's a

3:59

great platform of opportunity. We

4:02

can still make it a huge,

4:04

wonderful, powerful success. and

4:07

take our rightful place at the top table

4:10

of the world. But at the moment, it's

4:12

like everything. It's a way did opportunity.

4:14

It's a failure you think of the people. It's a

4:16

it's a failure. failure. It's a parliament

4:18

failure. What's happening now with the

4:20

likes of Sunak and Jeremy Hunt?

4:23

taking over in a form of coup

4:25

because that's essentially what it is. The

4:27

establishment have taken back

4:29

control

4:30

from the people who

4:32

asked to take back control from Brussels.

4:35

And

4:36

it's it's

4:37

utterly appalling. And that's opportunity for

4:39

you, isn't it? So since

4:41

Liz Truss was removed by MPs were

4:43

resigned under pressure from her own MPs,

4:46

she was she was removed by

4:48

the establishment two weeks ago. Since that

4:50

happened, you've seen a lot of people join your

4:52

party. We've had almost five

4:54

thousand people most of

4:56

whom we believe are formatory members

4:59

or They're able to improve with that on that narrative.

5:01

No. There's no judging by the

5:03

emails that have come in. the messages.

5:06

It's

5:06

pretty clear. But the run rate is normal run

5:08

rate for joining in two weeks. A few hundred,

5:10

I suppose. Yes. I mean, obviously, like

5:12

any political party, you get people joining people

5:14

leaving, but this is extraordinary. And

5:17

it's a sign of people's fury and anger

5:20

because that they know that there's been

5:22

an establishment coup, and they

5:24

know and they can see from everything that's

5:26

going on. I mean, Jeremy Hunt.

5:29

he's

5:29

got as much right to be chancellor

5:31

as, frankly, the person running the

5:33

local McDonald's. He's got no financial

5:36

experience. He's got a he's got a hot hot quarters

5:38

in a millionaire. sold his business

5:40

made millions from self, eighteen million from

5:42

memory. So he's he's he's

5:44

got no experience in any treasury

5:46

department however. He's never spoken

5:48

about the economy. But he's one entrepreneur

5:50

like you Richard to be fair to him. But anyway,

5:52

the the the the point is The point is

5:54

he's taken the country down completely

5:57

the wrong road. Did you

5:59

establish

5:59

a hotline to attract former toy

6:02

members? In a

6:04

sense you did. In a sense, we didn't need to.

6:06

But did you? People were there. I

6:08

mean, look, there's always a hotline. Okay.

6:10

And there's always people to answer it. But

6:13

let's be clear, people are steaming

6:15

that. And it and of

6:17

course, it's not just conservative. voters.

6:20

It's people of no political persuasion,

6:22

but also traditional labor

6:25

voters. Many of whom are also

6:27

very angry about what's going on with

6:29

immigration. Both the

6:32

one point one million

6:34

visas that were issued in twenty

6:37

twenty one. We're supposed to take back control

6:39

of our borders and to be able to

6:41

create great opportunities for British people.

6:43

And the opposites happened. We've actually

6:45

got we've got higher levels of legal immigration,

6:47

but we didn't we didn't we didn't Legal

6:49

immigration. That's one half We're completely out of

6:51

control. We don't know what the net figure is yet. We don't know how many

6:53

left. We know what the how many fees are issued.

6:55

We're waiting to see what the net figure was. shortly

6:57

aren't we for the annual figure for twenty twenty one?

6:59

But there's no question. There's an issue with a small boat

7:01

on South Dakota. Let's be very clear. You

7:03

can always trust the gross number. The

7:05

net number

7:06

is frankly a bit of a fudge. Look at the

7:09

gross number and it's the

7:11

highest ever and it's completely

7:13

at odds with what the people were promised.

7:15

And the issue of the boats coming across the

7:17

English channel is I

7:20

mean, it is to Lee Appauling. Are you doing what

7:22

UK were doing ten years ago at the Tory

7:24

Party? Your main focus is attracting,disaffected,

7:28

low tax conservatives.

7:30

Our main focus is is attracting

7:32

people who believe in Britain, who

7:34

believe that we can make Britain great again,

7:37

but know that to do that,

7:40

you've gotta be in control of your own country.

7:42

You've gotta know who's coming in. You've gotta

7:44

know who's coming out. You've gotta know what they're

7:46

coming here to do. Are they coming here

7:48

to legally, lawfully, help

7:50

our economy where we've just got skill shortages.

7:52

That's fantastic. We've always welcomed people

7:54

like that. But what

7:56

people do not want is

7:58

illegal, unfair, immigration

8:02

that we're all having to pay the price for.

8:04

and

8:04

it's

8:05

the greatest scandal the

8:07

country's ever seen is way worse than two years

8:09

ago, little in ten years ago. And what are your policies on

8:11

taxation? So on taxation, we're

8:14

the only party now that stands

8:16

for cutting taxes. So we would lift the

8:18

income tax threshold from twelve and a half

8:20

grand to twenty grand That means

8:22

six million of the lowest paid are

8:24

taken out of paying any income tax whatsoever

8:26

so that work pays. And who who

8:28

pays? They absolutely pays for that. Look,

8:31

I'll come on. The other key policy is that

8:33

we would take a million small

8:35

businesses out of paying any corporation tax

8:37

by lifting the corporation tax threshold

8:39

to a hundred thousand pounds. And

8:41

it's very simple how you pay for this.

8:43

You cut the vast

8:46

horrific amount of wasteful

8:48

government spending. There's only two types of government

8:50

spending. There's useful government spending

8:52

and

8:52

there's wasteful examples of that. The aid budget in

8:54

your mind. There are examples everywhere.

8:57

Wherever you look? is your budget

8:59

safe? I'm a businessman. I'll approach it in a

9:01

different way.

9:01

Every household and every business

9:04

is looking at their budgets now and

9:06

saying, I need to say, five quid and a hundred.

9:09

And you can do that quite

9:11

straightforwardly. And very often, if you're a

9:13

business for example, you actually work better. the

9:16

government needs to say to every

9:18

manager of every spending department

9:20

up and

9:20

down the country in every council,

9:23

every kungo, every government department,

9:25

you're gonna say five quid in a hundred

9:27

without touching frontline services. And

9:29

if you don't, you're fired.

9:32

That's what we do in business and guess

9:34

what? It works. So you say five quid and

9:36

a hundred now. Five quid and a hundred for

9:38

the government is

9:39

fifty billion pounds

9:42

And it's at the cost of your -- Yes. --

9:44

filling with corporate tax and income tax.

9:46

Exactly. Our our main key tax policies as

9:48

well as cutting consumer taxes

9:50

on things like twenty p or forty p

9:52

for example. Cutting VAT by

9:54

two pence to from twenty to

9:56

eighteen. and cutting the environmental

9:59

levies. All

9:59

of that, you can pay for that by

10:02

cutting the vast amount of obscene

10:04

wasteful government spending. We all see it

10:06

every day. It drives us on other

10:08

examples, which are tied to what you're saying. Look,

10:10

you just have to look around everywhere

10:12

you look. Just the other day, I was looking, one

10:14

department spent cost per million

10:16

quid on a wellness app.

10:18

I mean,

10:19

give us a break. Come on. A lot

10:21

of apps make fifty billion though.

10:23

It's all over the place. It's

10:25

absolutely everywhere. If I direct this

10:27

five point three million

10:29

people on

10:30

out of work benefits. That's one

10:32

in eight of the population. There's no

10:34

discussion in government about how we help

10:36

train and support and help those people

10:38

back. That's one and a half million

10:41

more than pre COVID. If

10:43

you said right, we're gonna get a million people in the

10:45

next twelve months back into

10:47

work with help support encouragement.

10:49

That's between ten and

10:51

fifteen billion quid.

10:53

That's real money. There's no talk

10:55

about that. What your policy is on

10:57

defense? On defense. Actually,

10:59

Ben Wallace has been doing a great job. but invest

11:01

more in defense. And we're hearing

11:03

you by twenty thirty, four percent, five

11:06

percent. I think Truss was on the right track.

11:08

you've gotta have that ambition to get

11:10

towards three percent by twenty thirty, which is Before

11:12

your policy. That was and it's not

11:14

easy, but you've gotta get there. But here's the key

11:16

thing on defense. You've got to properly

11:19

spend the money wisely. You've got to

11:21

procure your equipment to get the best

11:23

equipment at the right price.

11:25

We know, total wasteful spending

11:27

MOD procurement has been a multi

11:29

decade scandal. That's got a

11:31

stop. The other thing about defense is

11:34

we've got to properly look

11:36

after fund and train

11:38

and help. Veterans. Because

11:40

it's an absolute scandal how they have been

11:42

treated and just

11:44

ignored and abandoned after

11:46

leaving the forces and

11:49

a proper office for veteran affairs,

11:51

properly felt that there is one outside one

11:53

now in Catabas. It's hopeless. it

11:55

doesn't need to be in the cabinet office. It's got to

11:57

be a proper grown

11:59

up, separate department,

11:59

properly funded because guess

12:02

what? our veterans have got some of the

12:04

greatest skills, training, and

12:06

experience to offer to the public

12:08

sector. Veterans should be leading

12:11

for example, as chief constables of

12:13

our police forces like they used to do

12:15

forty or fifty years ago, very

12:17

often. And in senior leadership positions in

12:19

the police, then all of a sudden, you

12:21

get the police doing a proper

12:23

job, properly implementing real

12:25

law and order. They wouldn't be tolerating any of

12:27

this nonsense from these absurd

12:29

idiots. locking up

12:31

roads and

12:32

junctions and taking over gang trees,

12:35

it's driving the country mad. Common sense

12:37

policies. Yeah. Stuff not rocket

12:39

science. But if it's not done properly,

12:41

the country declines and

12:43

more and more people are despairing,

12:45

saying, these people have seen a day

12:47

before to let remlessness of

12:49

Yukip twenty fifteen, which

12:51

Nigel Varo says was his favorite ever

12:53

manifested well thought through manifested, he

12:55

would say, it does seem like it's Yukip's

12:57

greatest hits. Nothing wrong with that. Richard Ties from saying

12:59

this how it's saying. This is this is reform's

13:01

greatest hits, and we are

13:03

dealing with the challenges of today. And

13:05

we haven't even touched on energy.

13:07

and the madness of

13:09

net zero, which Westminster

13:11

is completely obsessed with. We all

13:13

care about the environment. We all

13:15

want to reduce emissions. I've got an

13:17

electric car. I'm putting solar

13:19

panels on my industrial building. So I'm

13:21

doing more than my bit, but

13:23

Westminster's net zero is the wrong bit of the

13:25

wrong price. and it's making the

13:27

country net poor. Would you

13:29

reopen coal mines in Britain?

13:31

Look, I believe we've got a

13:33

huge energy treasure under

13:35

our feet. we've got North Sea oil and

13:37

gas that we haven't been properly exploring

13:39

and incentivizing. We've got shale gas

13:41

that I've been banging on about. for

13:44

a year now that Sunak

13:46

campaigned to go for shale gas

13:48

subject to local consent, and then he did

13:50

a u-turn. Basically, he lied during

13:52

his campaign. He got rid of Boris Johnson

13:54

because he was a liar. And now, Sunox turned

13:56

out to be a liar himself. It's

13:58

appalling. We've got this energy treasure. We've

14:00

got a centuries worth of coal.

14:02

and yet we're importing five million

14:04

tons of coal every year from

14:06

places like Australia and from

14:08

America. So it's adding adding to our C02

14:10

which is complete madness. Sunak

14:12

saying we're gonna do a deal with the

14:15

US to import LNG.

14:18

That means liquefied natural gas liquefied

14:20

natural gas. That creates three

14:22

to four times the C02 that if

14:24

we used our own shale gas, or if we

14:26

used our own North Sea Gas. So we're

14:28

sending our jobs and our money overseas.

14:30

We're creating more CA2. It's

14:32

literally a lose lose lose.

14:35

We should be using our own coal,

14:37

using our own gas, using our own

14:39

oil because

14:40

the cheap, cost effective fossil

14:42

fuels is what

14:43

makes our manufacturing industry competitive.

14:46

It's what makes our steel industry competitive.

14:48

And at the moment, it's all going

14:50

the wrong way. The great thing

14:52

is with new technology, for example,

14:54

with coal, we should be investing

14:56

in and accelerating the growth

14:58

in investment in carbon

15:00

capture storage. That's a great

15:02

technology. We could be a world leader in

15:04

it, which means we can use our fossil

15:06

fuels and save emissions and

15:08

lead the way in the world. That's how to be next

15:10

smart about reducing emissions as

15:12

opposed to the next stupid net

15:14

zero that's making us

15:16

net poor. Will you fight every seat of

15:18

the next generation? We've already

15:20

got five hundred and fifty calendars because

15:22

there was a moment when it looked like there might be election

15:24

before Christmas. We're ready to fight.

15:26

You got them. We've we've basically got

15:28

them. We're lying though. Worse. Worse.

15:30

We won't. I've got the list. I'm certainly not gonna be able to use

15:32

that to me. Of course not.

15:34

Okay. But we won't

15:36

be standing in Northern Ireland, but otherwise we

15:38

will stand pretty much everywhere. And

15:42

it's vital that people have the

15:44

option of voting for reform.

15:46

And what I'm hearing is people

15:48

are saying actually when you look at it,

15:50

it's common sense policies. It

15:52

would help drive the country forward.

15:54

And we really can make Britain great

15:56

again. But at the moment, This

15:58

government, this conservative

16:00

party, is making

16:02

Britain worse. Wait till you

16:04

basically got these candidates. You haven't got them more

16:06

than all five fifty. I've got five

16:08

fifty. So I need about You're not I need about

16:10

another age another age or so. And

16:12

for personal reasons, but you It's always the only one

16:14

that comes in You and Nigel Faroe stood down feeling

16:16

the seventeen candidate didn't you. We had no. We

16:18

couldn't find We had to guarantee

16:21

that

16:21

Brexit was got over the line,

16:23

and we had to guarantee that there

16:25

was no risk of Corbyn and

16:27

the Libdems doing some heavy

16:29

duty orders down in nineteen fifty. No.

16:31

We got Brexit over the

16:33

line. Boris them completely

16:35

blew it. we will not be standing

16:37

anyone down in favor

16:39

of anybody, at least of all the conservative

16:41

party next time around. So we're standing

16:43

everywhere. We're absolutely resolute

16:45

about that. We know exactly how we're doing

16:47

it. We've got donors coming forward,

16:49

so we will have the funding, we'll have

16:51

the candidates, we'll have the common

16:53

sense policies that

16:55

work for ordinary groups. targeting

16:57

some seats where you might win,

16:59

which is what the argument for Well, not

17:01

very much was in twenty seventeen.

17:03

obviously, there are there are every party has

17:05

specific targets. See, how many how many you

17:07

got? We'll we'll we'll have

17:09

a a really decent number of people that we'll

17:11

be going for. of course, we're heavily

17:14

focusing in the north, the Red Wall

17:16

seats. We want to get rid of all of

17:18

those current Tory

17:20

MPs in the Red Wall seats. because

17:22

those are the seats that know that actually

17:24

our great British energy

17:26

treasure under our feet is the source

17:28

of huge prosperity. They what were they? Well, they didn't

17:30

want sharks. They don't want fracking. Do they? They

17:32

do want fracking. If you speak to

17:35

people, they

17:35

do want fracking. If you speak to people,

17:37

they wanna reopen coal mines on a

17:40

sensible basis use the latest

17:42

technology so that it's clean. There's no point

17:44

importing coal from Australia when we've got

17:46

it in Cambria, when we've got it

17:48

in Durham. You can save emissions, you can create

17:50

British jobs, keep the wealth

17:52

here, create the wealth here, and

17:54

make our manufacturing industry as our

17:56

steel business to point

17:58

you. It's wonderful. But by do by

18:00

chipping away at several

18:02

thousand conservative voters

18:04

in five hundred and fifty seats aren't you giving power?

18:06

In the north, you're in the north, I'm a

18:08

stickiest armor. In the in the north, I'm

18:10

targeting labor voters as well

18:12

because remember, you know, The

18:14

Labour Party was built in the north on,

18:16

for example, some of these mining communities. They

18:20

understand again, the energy pressure we'd never

18:22

had before in our time.

18:24

The threat of blackouts and rationing

18:27

because we've run out of energy. We've never had

18:29

before people literally not being

18:31

able to afford to eat

18:33

their homes. This is all because of

18:35

the madness of this

18:37

Westminster's obsession with

18:39

NetZero and whether their former

18:41

Labour voters former con You think your

18:43

aunties in the North want to reopen my

18:45

house. I've never got the job. I've just been in the ground.

18:47

I'm standing in Liverpool. I was just up

18:49

there the other day. People are talking

18:51

about it. People know that it's the same thing. work

18:53

underground? Are they Well, we want it they want the

18:55

majority. Look. People understand that

18:57

technology has moved on. open

18:59

class coal mining. There's one being talked about in

19:01

Durham, for example. Great opportunity. People

19:03

are doing it all over the world.

19:05

That's We've got in the language of tires

19:07

open class mining. Opencast mining.

19:10

Down in there's a range of damage

19:12

to nonsense. Look at down in Cornwall,

19:14

for example. A great mining heritage.

19:17

Who

19:17

knew that we've got massive

19:20

reserves of lithium in cornwall,

19:22

as elsewhere in the UK?

19:24

Lithium is essential for

19:26

electric batteries. So if we've got it

19:28

here, why wouldn't we mine it

19:30

here so that we can create more

19:32

jobs and keep the wealth here? Lithium

19:34

is part of our energy treasure. there's so much of that

19:36

that we should be going for. You know,

19:38

we want, for example, British

19:40

folk that's going to hopefully, although there's

19:42

some serious problems at the

19:44

moment, build electric car

19:46

batteries in the north. Why would you import lithium

19:48

from elsewhere in the world when we've got

19:50

it here? Because

19:51

communities near the way where it is, may say,

19:54

you can't dig here. We've got

19:56

communities communities down in Cornwall who are

19:58

used to mining. They want, as I

20:00

understand, want to extract that

20:02

treasure. why would you leave the treasure under the floorboards

20:05

that that essentially we're all inheriting,

20:07

that we all own and import it

20:09

from

20:09

elsewhere creating more CO2

20:11

So you you get this win win, you

20:13

create jobs, you save CO2, you

20:16

create wealth, you keep the money

20:18

here. We mentioned the beginning Nigel

20:20

Faroe What's his involvement now? your life president.

20:23

Nigel's the honorary president of the party.

20:25

Obviously, he's got a very significant

20:27

media career. with GB

20:29

news, but I speak to Nigel very

20:32

frequently. Of course, he he's passionately

20:35

enthusiastic about

20:37

making making this great country

20:39

properly managed, properly run.

20:41

We're all doing our bit in our different

20:43

ways, and we all just feel

20:46

appalled by how

20:48

badly a supposedly conservative government,

20:50

which actually is not. It's a

20:52

socialist government. We've got two types of socialism now.

20:54

That's the Twitter offer here. We've got

20:56

socialism and we've got red

20:58

socialism. And you can't put a

21:00

paper literally is cigarette paper between them, whether

21:02

it's on they're all stand for higher

21:04

taxes, higher wasteful government

21:07

spending, They all stand in And that's what they

21:09

all in. They all want on the other

21:11

immigration. They don't care about illegal

21:13

immigration. They're not gonna do anything about there's

21:15

only one part that isn't true. Is it

21:17

easiest? Absolutely. braveman does count

21:19

immigration. She does count. She's not gonna do anything

21:21

about it. We all know. that her prime minister,

21:23

her chancellor, and the

21:25

left of the conservative party will not

21:27

let her do anything about it. And she's also

21:29

got a home office department. Right?

21:31

who have got a track record under the previous home

21:34

secretary, Pretty Patel, of working

21:36

against their wishes. Still

21:38

Faraj, is he one of your

21:40

candidates in your five hundred and fifty seats.

21:42

Nigel

21:42

would make his own decision as to whether he

21:44

wants to stand again. Recently, I

21:46

think he said that in a

21:48

sense I mean, we all know. First part of the post is challenging. Nigel,

21:51

like

21:51

myself, like reform, and like

21:53

other smaller parties, one proportional representation

21:56

because that way, Every vote counts.

21:59

Every vote matters. Like, guarantees you turn off

22:01

fifteen seats. Look. For many

22:03

elections. Look. I'm happy. The reality is the reality is the reality

22:05

is between sixty and a hundred

22:07

seats. And at which point, here's the rub. There's only one

22:09

party now that doesn't want proportional

22:12

representation. That's the conservative part and

22:14

labor. No. Labor party just voted

22:16

for it at a conference. I think remember it

22:18

was brief. They wouldn't do it, though. No.

22:20

No. They voted for it. People are Andy

22:22

Burnhams to Decathlon. They were there's only one

22:24

person who's still slight sitting on the fence because he's got long

22:26

track record of doing that and that's a clear Are you

22:28

involved in the war on woke? Do you hate the word

22:30

woke in the culture wars?

22:32

Statues? the the culture wars really

22:34

important because it's it's what Britain's

22:36

about. It's about our tradition. It's

22:38

about our values. It's about our heritage.

22:40

It's about our freedoms.

22:43

And there is all this woke stuff that drives

22:45

us all completely bonkers. And we've

22:47

got to take it head on all

22:49

over the

22:50

place. because it's invading our institutions.

22:53

It's invading the departments of

22:55

government and it's actually

22:57

seriously damaging the

22:59

country involved in wasting a

23:01

whole load of cash, it's preventing growth.

23:03

No one's talking in this government about

23:05

growth. You can't tax you out of this

23:08

crisis. Jeremy Hunt, he seems to think that you

23:10

can taxi aware out of this crisis. You can't.

23:12

You gotta grow your aware out of this crisis.

23:14

If they raise taxes, you will

23:16

lower growth and you will you will will

23:18

manage Britain into permanent,

23:21

relentless decline. Do you see an opportunity

23:23

for reform because of There's

23:25

opportunity to shift. There's absolutely no.

23:27

now. Unusually now because of the

23:30

concern of cost of living, the

23:32

large tax increases expected in Wherever

23:34

you look day. There is there is

23:36

gross negligence, gross incompetence,

23:38

whether it's on the illegal immigration, whether

23:40

it's on the legal immigration, whether it's

23:42

on growing the economy by cutting

23:44

taxes for the lowest paid and small

23:46

businesses, not by this nonsense of trickle

23:48

down by cutting taxes for the highest paid.

23:50

You cut taxes for the lowest paid. That's how

23:53

you create the growth from the bottom. It's what I

23:55

call bubble up, economics. That

23:57

works. You're a former conservative. You

23:59

were in talks

23:59

to be the London mayor. I

24:02

put my name forward and they they said I'm

24:04

not no thanks. Are you not bitter? I'm not

24:06

bitter. This is your revenge on the party

24:08

you you joined once. I just know this is a great

24:10

country that can do so much better, but it requires

24:13

reform everywhere. and we do what it says on the

24:15

team. We've got the common sense policies.

24:17

That's why people are joining us. People are

24:19

leaving other parties in

24:21

droves. pelling

24:22

at six percent going north going

24:24

north. That's a good whole reason. If we keep

24:26

going north and the tourists keep coming south, soon

24:28

we'll be overtaking them. And what's your message

24:31

if Rishi Shiraku or any any

24:33

senior toy to listen to this this

24:35

podcast. My message is this is a great

24:37

country for heaven's sake. Start

24:39

managing it properly because at

24:41

the moment, you are driving the

24:43

country into relentless decline.

24:45

It's an absolute tragedy. We've got

24:47

so much potential. We've got to make

24:49

Britain great again. And at

24:51

the moment, they are destroying it. Richard Tyson, one final

24:53

question. When I interviewed Richard Tsunak in

24:55

August, I was so desperate for

24:56

questions he hadn't answered.

24:58

I asked in the following, you have to be be give

25:00

me a straight answer to this one. Are you

25:03

ticklish? How

25:03

am I ticklish in certain

25:06

places?

25:08

Richard Tice

25:10

there and a write up of that

25:13

interview will be in a show notes to

25:15

this episode. Now do say whether this

25:17

listeners coming up, I'll be talking about whether the

25:19

plans for a national flagship

25:21

could be kept afloat after

25:23

all. or are they

25:25

hold below the water line right after

25:28

this?

25:31

Nigel Farage, this

25:33

is the most commonest thing done by

25:35

any government in my life serving this country.

25:38

Lino Shriver, which

25:40

is worse, Biden's not being in control

25:42

and Biden being in control. Charles

25:45

Moore, I think if people in

25:47

general feel that their

25:49

traditions, culture, history, values, etcetera, are under assault.

25:52

They are basically right. My

25:54

name is Steven Edginton, and if

25:56

you're enjoying this podcast, You

25:58

might like off script a new series from the

26:01

Telegraph, provocative conversations

26:03

with provocative individuals. Each

26:06

episode I sit down with the world leading commentator to

26:09

unpick the ongoing culture wars,

26:12

unfiltered,

26:12

unscripted, and full of

26:15

free speech. Be sure

26:16

to listen to off script in the same place you're listening

26:18

to this and make sure to follow

26:21

so you don't miss an episode.

26:25

And we're

26:30

back. Now, anybody who's been listening to

26:32

this podcast for a number of

26:35

years might know there's one

26:37

subject quite close to my

26:39

heart. There's

26:39

been talk in the UK here

26:41

for a replacement for the Royal

26:43

York Britannia. I wonder what you thought of that.

26:46

Well, I have been on the old Britannia

26:48

a long long time ago. Now, Craig

26:50

is not the only MP calling

26:52

for a six lesser to

26:54

HNY Britannia to be built.

26:56

But maybe before long, we'll see it. We'll see

26:58

a a new yacht in the harbor

27:00

at all And at the weekend, you

27:02

were saying that we should

27:04

have a new Royal European Union. I

27:06

started by asking you whether he thought a new I

27:08

just finally, I mean, you know, if you're

27:10

naming any rooms on on the new private

27:12

ship suite. Well, I'll take a small

27:15

by in the in the toilets if you there's a a buzzer at

27:17

loose seats or something. I mean, it makes me a

27:19

bit sorry. I have to say that Urner's

27:21

trust in one of her first decisions as

27:23

prime minister has decided to show

27:25

the idea for a recommissioning of

27:28

Britannia. Quite honestly. Did you have to be the

27:30

medicine October ninety seven?

27:32

No. I'm most certain they

27:34

did not Is it therefore some of the national flagship to replace the

27:36

Royal Apotanya? It's too late, but

27:39

that's all I

27:41

just don't think in the realms of reality to

27:44

hammer royalty art when

27:46

your first cost of living problem.

27:48

Perhaps in the future, then I say I think it's a ship

27:50

that has sailed.

27:56

So

27:56

imagine my dismay listeners to hear

27:59

just last week that the

28:01

idea of a new national flagship

28:03

has been well scuppered by

28:06

defense secretary Ben

28:08

Wallace. So I thought I'd pick up the phone and

28:10

commiserate with Stephen Watson,

28:12

an adviser on that program.

28:15

before it was brought to a crashing

28:17

halt just last week in house of

28:19

parliament. Stephen

28:21

Watson, a member of the

28:23

now national flagship task force. Soon do we

28:25

disband, I imagine. Welcome to Chopper's

28:28

Politics. It's great to be

28:30

here. Nice to see Chris. Why did we need

28:32

a national flagship, Stephen?

28:34

Well, I

28:35

I think it's important as

28:37

as we think about this project. And obviously, the

28:40

news, very disappointing news

28:42

that it's not going to go

28:44

ahead certainly not now.

28:46

There was a misunderstanding. This was not ever

28:48

intended to be a like for like replacement

28:50

of of Britannia or the rollout

28:52

as as we knew it in the past.

28:55

But there is, I think, in the twenty first

28:57

century as a proud maritime

28:59

nation, a very

29:01

compelling and actually quite exciting reason

29:03

for us to have

29:05

a wonderful ship

29:08

demonstrating the best British technology

29:10

and design that can represent

29:13

the United Kingdom around the world

29:15

and to deliver political,

29:18

diplomatic, trade outcomes

29:21

for the nation. And I I think

29:23

that was that was a vision

29:25

that the former prime minister Boris

29:27

Johnson believed in. He

29:29

he wanted to make it a reality.

29:32

That's really where I got involved. I I

29:34

remember back at beginning of

29:36

twenty twenty. Eddie

29:38

Lister, you know, reached out and said, look,

29:40

you know, are there a number of people who might have

29:42

some expertise that could help bring a

29:44

vision about? So that's that's

29:47

really how this journey started and and

29:49

the idea of a new ship at

29:51

state for the twenty first century. Do

29:53

you think that the the project was damaged by

29:55

being so closely associated with Boris Johnson?

29:57

Was that a problem with it?

29:59

Do you

30:00

know, I don't think so. I think

30:03

those that we're not fans,

30:06

try to portray this as somehow a Boris

30:08

Johnson vanity project. But

30:10

I think that that misses point, there was actually

30:12

a really strong

30:14

business case and strategic argument

30:17

for creating an asset like this.

30:19

And we spent a

30:21

huge amount of time talking to

30:23

industry and and British exporters

30:25

and leaders who said that this

30:27

is really something that they would

30:29

welcome. And there was

30:31

a considerable amount of work that while

30:33

I was on the program board that was done

30:36

across Whitehall, that involved Department

30:38

of Trade, the Foreign Office and others

30:40

talking some of our ambassadors,

30:42

trade commissioners around the world who said

30:45

Look, if we had this, there would be

30:47

massive utility in it. So I

30:49

think it went beyond. It needed

30:51

Boris Johnson's initial

30:53

vision and the way the license and

30:55

the encouragement to take a look at it. But I

30:57

think it did move then

31:00

to it wasn't just an idea on a whim

31:02

that there was actually a very strong

31:04

argument that was put together for the use

31:07

of public money and

31:09

treasure to actually try and create this

31:11

thing.

31:11

And was there actually a business case for it?

31:13

Was there was there a document saying that

31:15

if you spent two fifty million

31:18

pounds on this vessel, then it will

31:20

return three or four times

31:22

that over a certain period of

31:24

time.

31:24

Well, I think having looked at

31:26

these sort of business cases over the

31:28

years, it's difficult to provide

31:31

something that accountants

31:33

in a way could sign off in quite that

31:35

way. But I think look at like this, I mean, the UK

31:38

in trade terms,

31:40

invests a huge amount of money

31:43

promoting Britain and promoting exports around the world.

31:45

If you look at the world

31:47

expos, the next one being in Osaka

31:49

in twenty twenty five,

31:51

The UK will invest a considerable amount

31:53

of money in building and

31:56

curating the British House,

31:58

the Pavilion. And as we started

31:59

speaking to the team

32:02

looking ahead to twenty twenty five, if we had

32:04

had the national flagship, alongside

32:06

on the waterfront in Osaka,

32:08

it would rethink how you actually,

32:10

how you do that. And figures

32:12

as big as sixty million dollars to one

32:14

hundred million dollars is spent on a world

32:17

expo. Well, if you

32:19

look at that over a thirty year life,

32:21

actually this asset, the

32:23

ship, with all of its convening power would, in my

32:25

view, have delivered in spades. Do you

32:27

understand why the plan was

32:30

sunked that the Ben Wallace, the defense secretary, said that

32:32

they would spend the money on a new ship

32:34

to detect threats to underwater

32:36

Internet cables between the UK

32:39

and America. I get that.

32:41

And a hundred percent respect the Secretary of

32:43

State's decision. It was,

32:45

you know, after, you know,

32:47

events in in Ukraine

32:49

in in February and then the fiscal situation

32:51

that the country finds itself in,

32:53

it is it it's difficult to

32:55

to justify this. It

32:58

we're not replacing something that, you

33:00

know, is is a must have. This

33:02

this was an aspiration. It was about

33:04

an ambition. But

33:06

again, although many might say two

33:09

fifty million euros I believe we could have built

33:11

it for less. How much

33:13

I initially, when

33:15

I first looked at this with

33:19

colleagues, I think one hundred and fifty million would

33:21

have built a very a really

33:23

very special platform. And one

33:25

can always say, look, that's the cost

33:27

of half a hospital or whatever

33:29

it is. But actually as a maritime

33:31

nation looking over the next

33:33

thirty to forty years, having

33:35

something so special. It's it's

33:37

almost a UK's Air Force

33:39

one. it it only the United

33:42

Kingdom and global Britain could

33:44

have created something like this and

33:46

and look at the designs We

33:48

ran a design competition

33:50

over the last eighteen months. And

33:52

the best British, the

33:55

really fantastic neighbor architects,

33:57

maritime designers, over

33:59

a nineteen bids were submitted

34:01

into this process. And as we

34:03

sat there reviewing them, we were actually – we –

34:05

at one stage, we were a bit worried that it will be

34:07

quite conventional and just a sort of rehash

34:10

of Britannia. going

34:12

to be something really fitting for the UK

34:14

in the 21st century? And we were

34:16

not disappointed. I mean, look at look

34:18

at those designs. And the two

34:21

shortlisted winners. I mean, a a final

34:23

one was never, you know, and I won't peer

34:25

point it, but look at those designs

34:27

and and I pay

34:29

huge tribute to both

34:30

the companies who brought those forward. Yeah. Well, they

34:33

were by Holder and Hand and Wolf, and

34:35

we'll put a link to an

34:37

article I wrote for the paper, which illustrates all

34:40

shows that those two amazing

34:42

vessels, one of them looked like a genius

34:44

bond ship, as well as I was concerned,

34:46

looked extraordinary. Steven.

34:48

For one hundred and fifty million, I mean,

34:50

is it possible then that this

34:52

might come back as an idea

34:54

Is the idea in port or is it sunk

34:56

at sea? So I think on a

34:58

project

34:58

like this needs various stars

35:01

to align. And

35:04

Boris Johnson at the beginning of twenty twenty, the Stars

35:06

aligned. I mean, industry

35:09

saw the need cross white

35:11

haul view was, you know, that there was value

35:14

in it. We did

35:16

right at the beginning go out to

35:18

industry and see, you know, would it be

35:21

possible for industry maybe to pay the

35:23

capital cost of building the ship. But

35:25

that was right in the beginning at Covid, there was

35:27

a huge amount of uncertainty team. And frankly,

35:29

it was the wrong time and the wrong place to ask British exporters to

35:32

pay for it. But

35:34

I think though

35:36

this disappointing decision this week, there

35:38

is still value in the concepts. And

35:41

Chris, if I may

35:43

say, you've been a cheerleader for this over over many

35:45

years. And there have been various attempts ever

35:48

since Britannia was decommissioned in ninety

35:50

seven to try and

35:52

bring forward. something

35:54

something of this nature. I think for

35:56

now, it's difficult to see how that's

35:58

going to happen anytime soon,

36:01

but the need for Britain to be

36:03

out there around the world

36:05

doing something distinctive

36:08

and different and to use the maritime as a convenient

36:10

platform. I mean, in another

36:12

job of mine, I'm the director of

36:14

the Atlantic Beach Forum.

36:16

We hold for the UK government

36:18

to sum it on one of the aircraft

36:20

carriers. And we just took HMS Queen

36:22

Elizabeth into New

36:23

York. Harbour and and with our foremost

36:25

ally in the United States brought, you

36:28

know, five hundred business leaders and

36:30

politicians on on to the aircraft

36:32

carrier. Why is that such a

36:34

successful, you know, to bring people

36:36

on to a ship of state. It is very special. That

36:38

was the experience with

36:40

Britannia in another century, and it's

36:42

our limited experience with Royal

36:44

Navy warships. today.

36:46

So I think that I think there's a role. The idea

36:48

and the utility of this won't

36:50

go away. How we make it

36:53

happen? I don't know. If if one of

36:55

the two companies who bid, want to build the ship,

36:57

industry will come and use it. I'm I'm

36:59

a hundred percent sure. So

37:01

it could

37:01

be the case that one could be funded privately

37:04

in the future or even in a decade's time

37:06

in a different world, we could

37:08

get

37:08

a successor to the Royalty Operator?

37:11

Chris, I I would really like to think so.

37:13

And, you know, we mustn't lose sight

37:15

of the images that were in your paper

37:17

and you're gonna post online. I mean, when

37:19

you look at those two

37:21

ships -- Mhmm. -- flying the white

37:24

ensign crude by the Royal

37:26

Navy, the greener ships

37:28

of their class new

37:30

fuels, amazing exploration spaces.

37:32

I mean, it it would be

37:33

really cool if we could do

37:36

that. And

37:38

just finally, what we were was told by family

37:40

didn't want it, didn't want a

37:42

replacement to Britannia. The

37:45

Netflix series of the crown, series five comes out

37:48

this week. Britannia is a key

37:50

feature of of the

37:52

story of the plot line.

37:54

As I've idea of Fady Granja for the for the late

37:56

Queen. But do do you think that

37:58

the Royal Family, which is our

38:00

greatest soft power export, of course, in

38:02

the UK, would

38:04

buy into a replacement at some point? And were

38:06

they against the old one? And and I think here

38:08

this is the the super important distinction.

38:12

we

38:12

we did not set out to try and build a

38:14

yacht that would do west Nile

38:16

cruises or or roll honeymoon.

38:19

would never ever do that. It's a a

38:22

working ship of state. And in that

38:24

respect, you know, the king and the Prince Wales

38:26

and others at summits

38:28

or or Commonwealth heads of government summits

38:30

and and so forth or trade events,

38:33

they would use this working platform,

38:35

but it but it's not a yachts.

38:37

its spaceship of state. Well,

38:39

Steven Watson, thank you so much

38:41

joining us this week on Chopper's Baltics.

38:43

Thank you, Jonas.

38:44

Thank you. Steven Watson

38:47

there. And thanks to all

38:49

my guests this week on this bonus

38:51

episode of Chopper's Politics. Richard

38:54

Tice, the leader of a former

38:56

UK, and Steven Watson, an

38:58

adviser to the National

39:00

Flagship Program. Thank you to my and

39:02

Giles GEA. To share your

39:04

thoughts on what our guests had to say,

39:06

please do

39:08

email me chopper's politics

39:10

at telegraph dot co dot u k

39:12

or you can tweet me. We're at

39:14

chopper's podcast. And for more

39:16

Westminster Insights, do check out my daily

39:18

Chopper's Politics newsletter. The link for

39:20

that will be in the show notes to

39:23

this episode. Along with the link

39:25

to my article that featured They're

39:27

all yacht designs that Steven mentioned and,

39:29

of course, the article, the interviewer should

39:31

say, with Richard Tice. And I'll be

39:33

back on Thursday evening to give

39:35

you immediate reaction action to Jeremy Hunt's bruising

39:38

autumn statement with guests from the

39:40

Telegraph and further afield. Until

39:42

then, please do buy a copy

39:44

when you can

39:46

of the daily telegraph. I know you won't regret it.

39:48

Until next time

39:50

though, cheerio.