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1:13

acast.com. This

1:21

is Milk Street Radio from PRX. I'm your

1:23

host, Christopher Kimball. To

1:26

make a single drop of honey, one bee

1:28

might visit a thousand flowers, and

1:31

they're highly selective about which flowers they

1:33

go to. So if you've

1:35

found out the yellow ones with the

1:37

bilaterally symmetrical flowers are the most rewarding,

1:39

then you store that in your little

1:41

bee head and seek

1:43

out subsequently only those flowers. Bees

1:46

are problem solvers, and they also

1:48

experience emotions, recognize human faces, and

1:51

communicate with each other through dance.

1:54

They run around in a repeated, roughly

1:56

figure eight shape, and

1:58

encoded in these movements. is

2:01

both the direction and the distance

2:04

to a rewarding source.

2:07

Later on the show, zoologist Lars

2:09

Chitka reveals more of his amazing

2:11

discoveries about the mind of a

2:13

bee. The

2:16

first I'm joined by Sylvan Mishima

2:18

Brackett. He's the chef-owner of Rintaro

2:21

in San Francisco, also former creative

2:23

director at Chez Panisse. His

2:25

new book is called Rintaro, Japanese

2:27

Food from an Iza Kaya in

2:29

California. Sylvan,

2:31

welcome to Milk Street. Oh, thank you so much for having

2:33

me. I'm thrilled to be here. So

2:36

your restaurant, Rintaro, is an Iza

2:38

Kaya. So could you just explain

2:40

the concept? What is an Iza Kaya? Sure.

2:43

So I guess when I was in my

2:45

kind of early 20s, I was finally of

2:47

drinking age. And when I'd go back to

2:49

Japan to visit relatives and friends, we'd go

2:51

out. People

2:54

don't tend to entertain at home as

2:56

much. Houses and

2:58

apartments are small. They're just

3:00

not really set up for it in the same way that you might find

3:02

in the U.S. So for a

3:04

night with friends, it's you

3:07

going to one or two or three Iza Kaya. So

3:09

these are places that tend to be

3:11

fairly informal. It's kind of focused on

3:13

the drinking and sake. Music

3:16

is sometimes loud. And

3:18

it wasn't uncommon for us to

3:20

go to two or three Iza Kaya called Hashiko,

3:22

like word for ladder. So

3:24

you'd start somewhere and then you'd end

3:26

up at some other place

3:28

at two thirty in the morning under the train

3:30

tracks eating yakitori. So

3:34

you're talking about drinking and going laddering and going

3:36

from one to the next, and you're two thirty

3:38

in the morning, you're under the overpass finishing up

3:40

the evening. And then on

3:43

the other side, there is great

3:46

food. In Tokyo, for example, would they

3:48

serve the kinds of foods you're serving

3:50

here? Or is Iza

3:52

Kaya more of a high-end version of

3:54

what you'd find in Tokyo? Yeah,

3:57

I mean, I think it's more complicated for sure. of

4:00

Rintara, which is not a huge restaurant, I think

4:02

we we seat 85

4:05

people, is

4:07

gigantic for Japanese standards. So

4:10

most of the isekai that I used to go to

4:12

would have seven seats, or

4:14

if you're like under the tracks, it's like

4:16

literally three seats. So

4:19

with the scale that we have, we're able

4:21

to offer a lot more because

4:23

I can have more cooks and more stations

4:25

doing more things. So for

4:28

instance, the dashi-maki tamago, the folded omelet,

4:30

I remember going to an isekaya and

4:33

Kyoto, the master of the

4:35

isekaya, was cooking yakitori. At

4:37

the same time he was making dashi-maki

4:39

tamago behind him. And I was like,

4:42

wow, this is truly impressive,

4:44

but really, really hard. So

4:46

we have somebody who can make dashi-maki tamago on one

4:49

station and then you know, we've got the grill and

4:51

then we can make udon. So

4:53

I would say that our menu is

4:55

probably more complex

4:57

and varied than most isekaya, just

5:00

because of the size of the

5:02

restaurant. Let's

5:05

go back to the folded omelet, the sort

5:07

of square pan. I looked

5:10

at the steps in your book. At

5:12

first I was excited because I've

5:14

always wanted to do it. And then I

5:16

looked at the steps and said, maybe

5:19

not. Because it's pretty complicated. It's

5:21

hard, right? It's

5:23

kind of one of those things that just takes a little practice. I

5:26

do have a little cheat in there, which is if

5:28

you have a little sushi roller, once

5:31

you've finished making it, you

5:33

can put it into that roller and kind of

5:35

wrap it up and put a rubber band around

5:37

it and let it sit for a minute or

5:39

two and then unroll it. And it'll look reasonable

5:41

and the flavor will be good. You want to

5:43

just describe to people just quickly what

5:45

the basic process is? Sure. So dashi-maki

5:47

tamago, it's a folded omelet. So you

5:50

make it in a rectangular pan and

5:53

it's one egg to 30 grams of liquid.

5:55

So one egg is about 50 grams. So

5:57

that gives you a sense of the ratio.

6:00

And the liquid is dashi,

6:03

of course, and mirin, sweet

6:05

cooking wine. And we

6:07

use light soy sauce and

6:09

sugar. Then we throw

6:12

in an extra handful of katsu bushi to

6:14

give it a real katsu bushi punch. And

6:17

then you cook it one layer at a time. So

6:19

you put in probably a

6:21

quarter of the mixture into your pan, let

6:24

it semi-set, and then you fold it. And

6:26

then you push it to the back of

6:28

the pan, pour more liquid

6:30

in, and then fold it over again.

6:33

And when you're done, it should be

6:35

extremely juicy as you bite into it.

6:37

It's very delicious. You

6:40

had a couple of little sort of dessert things, which

6:42

I thought were interesting. Ruby Red

6:44

Grapefruit Jelly. You

6:47

cut them into segments. You want to

6:49

talk about that one because that seemed

6:51

really appealing. Oh, yeah. So I'm a

6:54

huge fruit lover. I love all kinds

6:56

of fragrant fruits. So ume at the

6:58

Japanese plum, mulberries.

7:02

And you can really preserve

7:04

the fragrance and flavor of the fruit

7:07

by liquefying it,

7:09

basically, and setting it

7:11

with content, which is agar-agar,

7:14

seaweed-based, flavorless. It's

7:17

kind of like gelatin, but the texture is different. It

7:20

doesn't give in the same way gelatin does. And

7:23

when you heat it, you set it

7:25

through heat. So say, for instance, you

7:27

have a liter of very

7:29

good page mandarin juice

7:32

that you've seasoned with a lot of sugar. And

7:36

of that liter, you might use only a cup. Bring

7:40

that to a boil with content

7:42

to dissolve it. And then you

7:45

pour the cold juice in, and

7:48

then you set the whole thing. And what that

7:50

does is that the cooked juice doesn't

7:53

taste good. It tastes like airplane orange juice

7:55

or something. But the

7:57

fresh juice compensates for it. preserve

8:00

that really wonderful fragrance. Eggs.

8:05

How do you cook an egg to

8:07

get that perfect almost cooked

8:10

texture to it? Is that

8:13

just a question of timing? Is there any other

8:15

trick to doing that? Not really. It's pretty straightforward.

8:17

I mean we, you

8:19

know, in the olden days, and I'm

8:21

sure it still happens, the cooks

8:24

and wives of the village would find

8:27

the spot in the hot spring that was the right

8:29

temperature. 64.7 is what

8:31

we use in Celsius. And

8:34

you leave the egg there for between

8:37

30 to 35-40 minutes

8:40

and voila! We

8:42

use an immersion circulator like

8:45

that you might use for sous vide.

8:47

Before I bought that machine we would just

8:49

hover over the stove with a thermometer. It

8:51

was really annoying. Adjusting the heat and adding

8:54

cold water is necessary to cool it off

8:56

or turning up the heat if it was

8:58

too cold. But

9:00

that certainly works as well. So

9:03

in terms of traditional Japanese, let's

9:06

say, restaurant, apprenticeship concept and repetition

9:08

and doing the same thing over

9:10

and over again, do

9:12

you use that when

9:14

training people in your restaurant or bringing

9:16

them in? Is it a similar approach

9:18

or is it a more American approach?

9:21

Yeah, definitely. I mean people

9:23

tend to stay for three, four,

9:25

five years and

9:28

they tend to specialize in

9:30

a particular element.

9:32

So we have people who are very, very, very

9:34

good at Oden and I'll

9:36

train them first and then the kind

9:39

of culture of the restaurant has been such that

9:41

like each station kind of develops

9:44

on its own and finds little refinements

9:46

and changes. So that's actually

9:48

been really gratifying for me. That

9:51

notion of repetition,

9:54

details matter, investing

9:57

time in terms of years and decades to get

9:59

good at something. Do you

10:01

think that's something that's fading from

10:04

the modern world? Or do you think

10:07

it's something that actually will have a comeback? It's

10:09

hard to say. I mean, I sometimes

10:11

mention this acquaintance of mine

10:14

who's a 17th generation

10:16

Unagi chef. And,

10:18

you know, since forever, his family has

10:20

been grilling Unagi. And there really wasn't

10:22

a whole lot of possibility

10:24

for him to say, grill chicken. Like,

10:26

you know, it was going to be Unagi. Because

10:29

his family's been doing it forever and because

10:31

he's kind of devoted his life to it,

10:33

his Unagi is insanely delicious. You know,

10:36

it's like the best thing ever. But,

10:39

you know, that's kind of rough if you don't want to grill

10:41

Unagi for your whole life. To feel like you're not free

10:43

to do something else. So

10:47

there's a kind of a freedom in America, which I love. But

10:50

the price of that is that people

10:53

don't feel like they're required to

10:55

learn something very, very deeply. Sylvan,

10:59

what a pleasure. And I absolutely want to, you know,

11:01

five minutes with your book. I just I want to

11:03

get on the plane and go eat there. Oh, please

11:05

come. Yeah, I'd love to have you. I love the

11:07

book. I love the food. I just

11:09

love the philosophy behind it. Sylvan, it's been a real

11:11

pleasure. Thank you. Thanks so much. Appreciate

11:13

it. That

11:17

was Sylvan Mishima Brackett, author of Rintaro. You

11:20

can find his recipe for Ruby

11:22

Grapefruit Content Jelly at milkstreetradio.com. Now

11:27

I'm joined by my co-host, Sarah Moulton, to

11:29

answer a few of your cooking questions. Sarah

11:31

is, of course, the star of Sarah's Weeknight

11:33

Meals on public television. Her latest

11:35

book is Home Cooking 101. So

11:39

hot drinks, right? Mulled wine,

11:41

hot toddies, etc. Some

11:43

people like them. I'm not one of those people.

11:45

I like my drinks cold. But

11:48

I think you are actually an aficionado

11:51

of the mulled wine department, are

11:53

you? Well, I wasn't. I

11:56

Had the same terrible attitude that you

11:58

do right now. All

12:00

my son's girlfriend care to

12:02

made us some mulled. Wine

12:04

two Christmases ago. Now she's.

12:06

From Honduras but she went to high

12:08

school in Norway and this is something

12:10

you know gets cold at night that

12:13

they would have. I just loved it.

12:15

It was so good and are play

12:17

why there's a secret ingredient so it's

12:19

a bottle. Good wine and full bodied.

12:21

and you add three or four cardamom

12:24

pods, maybe few more, sixty eight whole

12:26

cloves, couple of cinnamon sticks, peel of

12:28

one orange which is very nice, not

12:30

the juice is just appeal, he sort

12:32

of get that sort of bitterness from

12:35

them. Peel to. Sugar to taste,

12:37

a quarter to half a cup and

12:39

then. The. Surprise Ingredient.

12:42

Is. Either half a cup of

12:44

or of and or half couple

12:46

whiskey. And it's interesting what that

12:48

high alcohol you know toasty spirit

12:50

does to the mold wine. It

12:52

makes it more sophisticated. it really

12:54

pretty nice. And then they did

12:56

garnish it with Rahman's and raisin

12:58

in the bottom of each little

13:00

cop. And it was really

13:02

pretty darn good if. I wasn't feeling

13:04

well. I can see making a

13:06

restorative you know how targets but taking

13:08

a bottle, a good wine and heating into

13:11

putting sugar and I'm gonna notice with his

13:13

phone. Yummy! You know what? I've not had

13:15

this recipe off to make our. Really, I

13:18

love this with great authority. A Not in

13:20

that a studded. I'm sure it's good.

13:22

Okay Moon, I'll move on. Welcome.

13:24

To Milk Street? Who's calling. Are

13:26

you guys? It's med student and calling

13:29

from the South Central Minnesota? Well hello

13:31

Meg, how can we help you today?

13:33

Assistance: Will you help me Quite a

13:35

lot. This abroad problem I was having

13:37

a few years ago and now I

13:40

have soup. And the oh, I'm calling

13:42

about soup. Okay, well. what it is

13:44

that problem. So like there's something that

13:46

Berkeley's have. No problem. Green and white,

13:48

Southern? No problem. Better when it comes

13:51

to the birds. Like a chicken soup

13:53

or turkey soup. it's watery, it's just

13:55

insipid, and I can't. quite figure out

13:57

why when i was a little girl growing

13:59

could put a chicken in a pot, throw

14:01

in some vegetables, and you have this just

14:04

mousy, delectable, rich chicken

14:06

soup, and I can't do it. So

14:09

you make it, you simmer it, the chicken is

14:11

cooked when you're done, you use the chicken in

14:13

the soup too? Correct. You take it out, you

14:15

shred the meat, and then you make

14:18

the soup with the broth. The

14:20

simplest thing you could do is, you know, you're

14:22

going to need to take the chicken out, let

14:25

it cool before you can shred it a bit.

14:27

While that's happening, boil the

14:29

liquid and cook

14:31

it down by half or

14:34

until it tastes like something. The problem is you

14:36

needed all that liquid to cover the chicken, and

14:38

so it's just a lot of liquid. It will

14:40

be great, all you need to do is reduce

14:42

it, it's that simple. So what I'm hearing is,

14:45

what I really need to do is take out

14:47

the chicken meat and reduce it

14:49

with just bones or with just the broth,

14:51

and I think I was just

14:53

cooking the stuffing out of the meat, and

14:55

then the meat tasted like nothing, and the

14:57

broth tasted like nothing. So that's great strategy.

14:59

The meat's gonna cook in like 20-25

15:02

minutes. I don't, would it cook at all?

15:04

I would cut into pieces. Do you cut it into pieces?

15:06

Yeah. Okay. I certainly could. Well

15:08

then, maybe that is a good idea. And the

15:10

other thing is, add a few extra chicken wings.

15:12

They have the three things

15:14

you want, which is skin, which

15:17

is fat, bones, which

15:19

is gelatin, and meat, which is

15:21

meat flavor. Supplement with chicken wings.

15:23

Yeah. I think I could do it. Do you have

15:25

an instant pot or a pressure cooker? I

15:27

do. Yeah. Throw a bunch of wings in it with

15:29

like a quart of water and cook it for 50 minutes

15:32

or so, or you could do it on top of the

15:34

stove. But the point is, I agree with the chicken wings,

15:36

and that should be the basis for your stock. Secondly,

15:39

there's another way around this, which is

15:41

using chicken soup recipes from around the

15:43

world, or in Vietnam they

15:46

might throw in rice and fish sauce,

15:48

right? In Somalia they have

15:50

two kinds of hot sauces they put on

15:52

top. So add some texture and add

15:54

some heat, add a strong

15:56

flavor, and that way you can

15:58

mask less than robust broth, but chicken

16:01

wings I agree is really the way to

16:03

go. That'll give you a lot of flavor.

16:05

You can play with chicken soup as a

16:07

base and just make up stuff

16:09

and just add a little extra flavor

16:13

and that makes it more interesting. So I think chicken soup

16:15

is the best recipe in the world because anybody

16:17

can play with it. Meg, let me tell

16:19

you one last thing that I just remembered.

16:21

Sure. It was a secret of my mother-in-law

16:23

when she made her chicken soup. She

16:26

added parsnips and that was a really

16:28

nice addition also. I had a wonderful

16:30

German Russian woman who took care of

16:32

me when I was a little girl

16:35

and she put sorrel in it. Oh

16:37

that's good. It was this bright lemony

16:39

burst of sorrel chicken deliciousness. Sorrel is

16:41

not easy to come by but that

16:43

is a brilliant idea. I don't know

16:45

how she did. Milwaukee, Wisconsin in like

16:47

1970 and somehow she found the sorrel.

16:50

Wow. Yummy. Thank you very much. I

16:52

will try both these strategies and I

16:54

will have better soup. Okay. All right,

16:56

Meg. Thank you. Thanks. Bye-bye. Welcome

16:59

to Milk Street. Who's calling? Hi. My

17:02

name is Diane and I am from Western

17:04

Massachusetts. How can we help you? So

17:07

recently my husband and I attended a wedding

17:09

and they had a delicious meal chicken and

17:11

I don't know if I'm pronouncing this correctly

17:14

veronique with dried cranberry

17:17

in apricot couscous. So

17:20

my husband and I loved the

17:23

cranberry in apricot couscous but

17:25

we can't figure out what the flavoring

17:27

was to make it sweet or tangy.

17:30

I tried to ask the kitchen staff but they

17:32

wouldn't tell me they said it was a special

17:34

recipe. I'm not very creative

17:36

or imaginative in the kitchen. I tried

17:39

adding honey, balsamic vinegar,

17:42

combo. I just

17:44

can't replicate that taste. Any suggestions as

17:46

to what I could do? Oh

17:49

I can always make up a suggestion. There

17:51

are two things that come to mind. The

17:54

liquid in which you cook the couscous could

17:57

be flavored. So for example you

17:59

could use a stock, but you could use some

18:01

orange juice or something else in it, you know,

18:03

and that would flavor the

18:05

couscous and give it a little sweetness

18:07

or cranberry juice. So that would be

18:10

one thing. The other thing is the

18:12

cranberry, the dried cranberries and apricot, whatever,

18:14

you can plump those too, you know,

18:16

in a warm liquid and add flavor,

18:18

infused flavor into those. You

18:20

could add, you know, additional sweetness like honey or sugar

18:22

to the liquid when you pump them up. But

18:25

I think it's the liquid in which you cook the couscous

18:27

where you probably could do the most benefit

18:30

in terms of adding something interesting. And I

18:32

think orange juice is probably your cranberry juice,

18:34

but one of those probably would help.

18:37

You like it because the couscous

18:40

itself had flavor or you just like

18:42

the cranberries and the apricot? It

18:44

was the couscous that had the flavor. I

18:46

know sometimes they say rather than steaming the

18:49

couscous, you can pan saute it,

18:51

I guess is the correct word. And

18:53

I wasn't sure if they added something that way

18:55

rather than just... Well you could do it

18:57

like a peel off, you could start by sauteing it

18:59

and then you cook it either steam it or boil

19:01

it or whatever, but you could start the couscous, that's

19:04

true, in a big skillet or

19:06

Dutch oven and you can saute with some oil and

19:08

some spices or whatever you want and then finish, add

19:10

water and cook it that way. I'm

19:13

sure they're adding the flavor through either that method

19:15

or just in the liquid itself. I

19:17

think steaming, however, in my

19:19

experience, steaming something you can't really infuse

19:21

as much flavor into food. So

19:24

it would have to be either sauteed in

19:26

oil or it would have to be actually simmered

19:28

in a liquid. Diane, I wanted

19:31

to ask a question though. Do you think,

19:33

was it the tiny, tiny grains of couscous

19:35

or was it more like the Israeli couscous

19:37

which is like little rounds? It

19:40

was the Israeli. Oh it was. Okay.

19:44

I mean if you wanted to try it with

19:46

the instant stuff, then I think Chris has got

19:48

a point. It's like, you know, follow instructions in

19:50

the back of the package and instead of adding

19:52

water, let it be half, you know, some sort of

19:54

juice or half juice and half

19:56

chicken broth. But if it's these

19:58

Israeli, yeah, you could certainly saute. ahead of

20:00

time and then cook it with flavored liquid.

20:03

And that takes longer to cook as I'm sure you're aware.

20:07

You should have slipped one of the people at the

20:09

wedding 20 bucks and you would have gotten the

20:11

recipe. That's the easiest way instead of calling out.

20:13

I know, really. Darn. 20 bucks

20:16

will get you anything. No, but I think

20:18

it's, you know, couscous is actually

20:20

pasta at Semolina Grains. Yes. And

20:22

so it just absorbs whatever liquid.

20:24

The liquid is the key, as Chris said. Okay.

20:27

Yeah. All right. Well that's what I will try.

20:29

Thank you very much. Oh, and Diane, let us

20:31

know. Please back out and let

20:33

us know. Well then next time take out the

20:35

wallet. Yeah, take out your wallet. Yeah. Good point.

20:37

All right. Yeah. Take care. Thanks.

20:40

Bye. This is

20:42

Milk Street Radio. Sarah and I want to solve

20:44

your culinary mystery, so give us a call anytime.

20:46

Our number 855-426-9843. One more time. 855-426-9843. Or please

20:48

email us at questions

20:57

at milkstreetradio.com. Welcome

21:00

to Milk Street. Who's calling? Hi, this

21:02

is Lance Cryley calling. How can we

21:04

help you today? A couple months

21:07

ago I was clearing out my

21:09

freezer and I discovered

21:11

two quart Ziploc bags of a

21:14

very nice beef bone broth I made for

21:16

French onion soup. Stuff must be

21:19

well over two years old by now. I always

21:21

hear in recipes people say, oh, this will last

21:23

in the freezer so and so months. I've

21:26

always been curious about what, especially well wrapped

21:28

food, what can actually go wrong in the

21:30

freezer or if you think this stuff is

21:32

still perfectly good to use. I

21:35

think, although I would get a

21:37

second opinion, so I don't kill you, I

21:40

would think from a safety point of view there's no

21:42

issue. And if you're freezing a

21:44

liquid, I think you're in pretty good

21:46

shape. So I don't think there'll

21:48

be a problem. I think the problem is when you

21:51

freeze meat or chicken or something else when

21:53

you have a texture problem. And some of the things I've

21:55

learned are, you know, some freezers are

21:57

frost free. Like I just, two weeks ago, I... I

22:00

have a full freezer and a refrigerator freezer in

22:02

my basement in Vermont. And one

22:04

of them was full of venison from like nine years ago.

22:07

Well, that was not good. I can assure you.

22:10

So here are the things, I would always vacuum pack

22:13

like meat or anything like that. I wouldn't just put it in

22:15

a bag. And two, make

22:17

sure that the bags are as thick as possible.

22:20

One thing we did in testing years ago

22:22

was discover that ice crystals form and

22:25

they actually puncture the bags with a vacuum

22:27

pack. And that's how things go south quickly.

22:30

You want the thicker milliliter bag if you do

22:32

that. But I think a liquid, I don't

22:35

see a problem with that. Again, I would check with like

22:37

the USDA or somebody else first. I

22:40

think it's fine. Yeah, I agree. As you

22:42

know, what makes food suffer is if

22:45

there's too much air in there and there's oxidation

22:47

and ice crystal form and so the taste

22:49

and the texture change. I mean, sometimes food

22:52

that's been not well stored and left in

22:54

the freezer gets an off taste. But

22:56

you're gonna boil it. I

22:59

mean, you hate to waste that. I think it's fine.

23:01

I think you're in good shape. Yeah, I agree. Great,

23:04

yeah. Okay, Liam. All right,

23:06

take care. I'll make some fresh onions. Thank you. Yes,

23:08

bye. Bye. Bye. Welcome

23:10

to Milk Street. Who's calling? Hi, this is

23:13

D'Amela. I'm calling from Northern Kentucky. How

23:15

can we help you? I have this Masala

23:17

tea mix that I got from a

23:20

store. It was black tea,

23:22

fresh ginger and cardamom pods. And I

23:25

wanted to replicate it. And

23:27

so I made some mix on my own

23:29

with the same things. And the first time

23:31

I made it, the ginger caused

23:33

there to be mold all

23:36

over where the ginger was, because from the moisture.

23:38

So I was calling to see what you

23:41

think about other ways to

23:43

have fresh ginger in that tea mix,

23:45

but not chopping ginger every day. So

23:47

the one you bought, it was dry ginger root,

23:50

I assume? Yeah, it

23:52

was fresh ginger root, but it was like, yeah, I have

23:54

been dry, definitely. And so I

23:56

thought, I don't know if like it dries while it's in there. You

23:58

know, you can buy candy ginger. which

24:00

I use sometimes and chop it up and put it into

24:02

apple pie and other stuff, but you

24:04

probably could do that. You can buy dry ginger,

24:07

but you couldn't use fresh ginger because that's gonna

24:09

go bad on you as you found out. I

24:12

mean the other thing is, do you want this

24:14

specific mixture? I mean masala

24:16

is just a spice mix, so

24:19

you could get a mortar and pestle, which are great

24:21

to have by the way, and you

24:23

could put cardamom and a bunch of other things,

24:25

warming spices in there as well, like

24:27

nutmeg, etc., and make up your own

24:29

mix. You just want to stay

24:32

away from anything that's got liquid in it, that's

24:34

water, which will turn bad. It

24:36

has to be dried. But candy, yeah,

24:38

candy ginger, you know, keeps nicely. That

24:40

would probably work. That's what I

24:42

would do. Okay. It's pretty strong. I

24:44

mean it's got a strong ginger hit

24:47

to it, so you're not gonna get something bland. I mean,

24:49

Sarah? Yeah, yeah, that's what I wanted. Well, you

24:51

could also make a syrup of all of

24:55

those spices, and that would keep in

24:57

the refrigerator. My daughter just bought some,

24:59

although I didn't look at what was on the

25:02

label. But I mean, again, I think Chris is

25:04

right. You could make up your own mix. It

25:06

sounds like you liked this combination. Yeah. And the

25:08

thing about doing that is to make a sugar

25:10

syrup, and then you add chunks of ginger. I

25:12

mean, bring it all up together, and you start

25:14

it cold to bring it all up together. Add the

25:16

ginger, add the cardamom, maybe some cinnamon sticks if

25:18

you want, or some cloves, whatever

25:21

mix you wanted. But the fresh ginger, yeah,

25:23

I make ginger tea when I'm sick, you

25:25

know, scrub it, but I don't peel it. You don't have to

25:28

chop it up, throw it in cold water, bring it up to

25:30

a simmer, and just let it simmer, and get stronger and stronger,

25:32

stronger as you cook it. If you added

25:34

sugar to a significant amount, and strain it all

25:36

out, or don't strain it out, you'd

25:39

have to strain it out, right? Let's not kill our

25:41

caller. No, he's right, he's right. You don't want to

25:43

leave the raw product in there,

25:45

which will absolutely make it spoil. But then strain

25:47

it all out, and you can keep that in

25:50

the fridge for, you know, weeks, and then just

25:52

add some to your tea. It's a good idea.

25:54

It'll be great. Yeah. You can

25:56

buy ginger syrup, like as a

25:58

cocktail bar thing. Right, but you can also

26:00

make your own. Also make your own. Yeah. Be a lot cheaper.

26:03

Since I make ginger tea all the time, I might as well.

26:06

Well, great. Thank you both so much. Okay.

26:08

Thanks for calling. All right. Bye-bye. Thanks. You're

26:12

listening to Milk Street Radio. After

26:14

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26:17

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27:44

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27:46

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27:48

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27:50

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27:52

course the food. Plan your

27:54

trip at san diego.org today. That's

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in part with City of San

28:01

Diego Tourism Marketing District assessment funds.

28:04

You know, I'm not a big fan

28:06

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28:09

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for more information. This

29:15

is Mo Street Radio. I'm your host, Christopher

29:17

Kimball. Right now, farmers in

29:19

California are getting ready to harvest 100%

29:21

of the almonds sold in the United

29:24

States. But to produce billions

29:26

of almonds, they need billions of bees.

29:29

Almond pollination in California is the

29:31

largest pollination event in the world.

29:34

It takes about 2.4 million hives. This

29:39

is Rowdy Freeman. He owns 1,100 of

29:41

these hives. A beekeeper like Rowdy

29:44

can make a lot of money by renting their

29:46

bees to a farmer. You know, somewhere between 200

29:48

and $225 per hive. Beekeepers

29:53

from all over the country head to California to

29:55

get in on this lucrative business. And

29:57

when the truckloads of bees start rolling into the almond

30:00

and orchards, Rowdy starts to get

30:02

busy. Because in addition to

30:04

being a beekeeper, Rowdy is also

30:06

a detective, and he investigates bee

30:08

heists. There's

30:11

probably a hundred different thefts over

30:13

the last 10 years or so,

30:16

you know, several hundred thousands of

30:18

hives. Rowdy

30:20

once helped catch a group who stole nearly $1

30:22

million in bee hives. They

30:25

had kind of like a chop shop

30:27

grinding off people's brands, and

30:30

then repainting everything and putting their stencils

30:32

on them and everything, so disguising the

30:34

stolen bees and equipment as their own.

30:37

They were caught in the act of doing

30:40

that. So more often, the thief disappears without

30:42

a trace. Finding the missing

30:44

hives is difficult. Kind of

30:46

like finding that needle in the haystack. This

30:49

is beekeeper Buzz Landon. He's been the victim

30:51

of bee theft. We went out to the

30:53

yard and there were just holes where the

30:56

hives were sitting. They picked

30:58

up the hives, they left the pallets, and

31:00

everything else. Rowdy

31:02

was on the case. When he shows

31:04

up at an investigation, he always begins by

31:07

looking for clues at the scene of the

31:09

crime. Sometimes

31:11

people get in a hurry, they drop

31:13

something. We look for tire

31:16

impressions at the scene. Is

31:18

it a tow behind forklift, or

31:20

are they using a skid steer? We can tell

31:22

all that type of stuff by the tire impressions.

31:26

At the scene, Rowdy can also tell how much

31:28

the thief knows about bees. A lot of

31:31

times it's an inside job, so it's like

31:33

other beekeepers who have lost a lot of

31:35

their own hives, so they go out and

31:38

steal hives from somebody else so they can

31:40

fulfill their contracts and get paid. Because

31:44

the culprit is usually in the world

31:46

of beekeeping, Rowdy might start getting tips.

31:48

Maybe someone overheard something suspicious or saw

31:50

some hives on the side of the

31:52

road. But as for Buzz's bees...

31:56

Mine were never found again, but

31:59

somebody else's... were found and it was

32:01

shown that somebody was stealing them and

32:03

then selling them. Even

32:06

after the almond season, the missing hives remain a

32:08

problem. Once they're stolen, they're

32:10

often mistreated or even abandoned, and a

32:12

beekeeper ends up with fewer hives for

32:15

future harvests. They're

32:17

not out there pollinating the crops, which

32:20

produce food all across the United

32:22

States and the world. So

32:24

it has a very large scale

32:27

effect. We know that

32:29

bees are essential to the food system, but they

32:31

also might be some of the world's most remarkable

32:33

creatures. For example, when Rowdy and

32:35

Buzz work with their hives, their

32:37

bees might actually recognize their faces.

32:41

And that's one of the discoveries made

32:43

by zoologist Lars Chitka. He also

32:45

says that bees can count, they have

32:47

distinct personalities, and they might even possess

32:50

consciousness. He joins me now

32:52

to share more revelations from his book, The

32:54

Mind of a Bee. Lars,

32:57

welcome to Milk Street. Hello, nice

32:59

to talk to you. You

33:02

wrote the following. Bees qualify

33:04

as conscious agents with

33:07

no less certainty than dogs or

33:09

cats. I

33:12

guess the dogs I've owned were

33:15

pretty conscious agents, but what exactly did you

33:17

mean by that? Well, consciousness

33:19

breaks down into basically two

33:21

things, and that's the capacity

33:23

to think and to

33:25

feel. And we

33:28

test these capacities in various

33:30

established paradigms that people also

33:32

use for dogs and cats.

33:35

For example, in problem solving

33:37

scenarios where we confront bees

33:39

with various puzzle boxes to

33:42

look into the future, think, what do I need

33:44

to achieve and how do I get there? And

33:47

indeed, it turns out that bees can do that. They

33:49

can also think about past

33:52

events and combine

33:54

them flexibly in their memory

33:56

to generate new information. So

33:58

there is a capacity. to think. And

34:01

by the same criteria that people

34:04

also use for various domestic animals,

34:06

it also appears that

34:08

they have some basic emotion-like

34:10

states. Bees have

34:13

the capacity to suffer, they sense

34:15

pain as well, and

34:17

they even exhibit play-like behavior. And

34:19

bumblebees that are offered balls to

34:22

manipulate, they come back to these

34:24

again and again because

34:26

they seem to enjoy the activity itself,

34:28

just like a puppy. So

34:31

let me ask this question because I think it's fascinating, it

34:33

goes to the heart of your research. What

34:36

if consciousness is

34:39

vastly different in

34:41

different animals? That is,

34:43

the way they think and what they

34:45

dream and how they

34:48

see the world or see what's inside

34:50

themselves and how they envision the world,

34:53

the way that's done is totally different.

34:55

It's like this thing about an alien

34:57

coming to Earth, their entire

34:59

frame of reference is different and so their

35:02

whole way of thinking is different. I

35:05

agree. That's why

35:07

I often refer to our bees as

35:09

kinds of aliens from inner

35:11

space because their whole

35:14

perceptual world is so entirely different

35:16

and so of course are the

35:19

things that occupy their minds. So to just

35:21

give you a few examples, bees

35:24

can see things that we are

35:26

entirely unaware of, for example ultraviolet

35:28

light. In a flower,

35:30

for example, we might just see

35:33

a homogeneously yellow pattern. They might

35:35

see two colors. They

35:37

can also smell things that we don't, such

35:39

as for example carbon dioxide. So

35:42

if you just start with sensory

35:44

perception, it's already completely

35:46

different in this insect world. And

35:50

they have a magnetic compass. They process

35:53

information through the eyes faster than we do.

35:55

They have 300 degree vision.

35:58

The list goes on and on. also

36:00

talk about it's very dark

36:02

inside the hive so they

36:05

get a lot of information in the hive but

36:07

they do that through touch and field not

36:10

so much through sight right indeed

36:12

so once you open up a hive

36:15

what you see is really some sort

36:17

of a strange civilization

36:20

you see thousands bees all

36:22

doing different things on these

36:24

vertical honeycombs that are

36:27

stunning in their regularity and

36:29

indeed their mathematical optimality and

36:32

all of the interactions you see there

36:35

all the activities of course cannot be

36:37

orchestrated through visual input so

36:40

much of the interactions as you said are mediated

36:44

by touch by smells and

36:47

by the bees engaging in

36:49

different movement patterns that in some cases

36:51

can take the form of

36:53

a kind of symbolic language and

36:56

encoded in these movements is

36:58

both the direction and the distance

37:01

to a rewarding source

37:04

so let's talk about food

37:06

and producing food as if this was

37:09

an agricultural seminar so bees

37:11

carry their own body weight in

37:13

nectar or pollen it

37:16

may need to visit a thousand

37:18

flowers and fly 10 kilometers to

37:21

fill its honey stomach only once

37:24

so this is a massive

37:26

amount of effort and energy for

37:29

what seems like a fairly small

37:31

amount of honey production indeed

37:35

it is from a human perspective of

37:37

course you often forget that

37:39

when you consume honey in your tea

37:42

just a single tiny drop of

37:45

nectar requires a bee to physically

37:48

fly to thousands of flowers

37:50

to identify the most

37:53

rewarding flowers so if

37:55

you found out through trial and error

37:57

with different flower species The

38:00

yellow ones with bilaterally symmetrical flowers are

38:02

the most rewarding. Then you store that

38:04

in your little bee head and

38:07

seek out subsequently only those flowers.

38:10

Yeah, you say that between

38:12

visits to 1,000 flowers, the bee may have

38:14

to reject 5,000 other flowers. And

38:17

then you say, this is really interesting. In

38:19

visiting 1,000 flowers, the bee has to work 1,000 floral

38:23

puzzle boxes, whose

38:25

mechanics can be as

38:27

complicated as operating a lock. But

38:29

there are various things that need

38:31

to be learned about flowers. So

38:34

if you think about snapdragons, for

38:36

example, you have

38:38

to pry petals apart vertically

38:40

or horizontally, depending on which species

38:42

it is, and then wiggle your

38:45

body in particular ways to get

38:47

to the nectar rewards. And

38:50

some bumblebees figure out certain

38:53

ways of cheating. They sometimes find that by

38:55

biting the spurs of flowers, you can get

38:57

to the nectar faster. Honeybees

39:00

can learn by observation how to

39:02

use these holes. So it's

39:05

not just learning how the flower appears, but

39:07

also how to handle it, how to

39:10

manipulate it, and so on. And that's

39:12

why many flowers can really be likened

39:14

to complex puzzle boxes. This

39:17

one really struck me. Honeybees

39:21

could be trained to recognize images

39:23

of human faces. Indeed. So

39:27

we trained bees to land on a little platform in

39:29

front of a black and white image of a human

39:31

face, where they got a little droplet

39:34

of sugar water. We do that a few

39:36

times and then present the bees essentially with

39:39

a scenario like a crime

39:41

witness test where

39:43

there are now several photos and they're spatially

39:45

shuffled, of course. And we then ask, can

39:47

you now locate that very same face on

39:52

which previously you were rewarded? In

39:54

the test, of course, there are no rewards Anywhere. About

40:00

eighty percent. Probability.

40:02

The bees return to the

40:04

correct face, even with quite

40:07

similar images of human faces.

40:09

and moreover, that not just

40:11

limited to remembering one image

40:13

and one particular configuration, but

40:15

even from different angles, they'll

40:17

be able to recognize it.

40:20

How is the same view as a

40:22

person? I mean you just talked about

40:25

somebody, amazing stimuli and in the where

40:27

they navigate and etc etc. But.

40:29

This must open up since

40:32

changed your view of existence

40:34

and life on earth and

40:36

humans interaction with it. Are

40:39

you different now? Yes,

40:42

by all means. so if for

40:45

example you had asked V thirty

40:47

years ago when for thirty five

40:49

years ago when I started researching

40:52

these behavior and intelligence, if you

40:54

had confronted me with the notion

40:56

that they might. Be.

40:58

Sente and that they might even

41:01

be intelligence. I would have thought

41:03

this is ridiculous. It's A I

41:05

would have thought it's untestable and

41:07

best and quite possibly laughable at

41:10

worst. Indeed, even human babies were

41:12

still off and operated on. Without.

41:15

Anesthesia because doctor said well yeah,

41:18

they're screaming and kicking but they

41:20

don't actually feel anything, they're not

41:22

conscious So that viewer think has

41:24

changed a little bit. but specifically

41:26

the work that we did with

41:28

my team over the decades. Has

41:32

changed my view of the world

41:34

quite profoundly and a sink it

41:36

it adds a very important on

41:38

go to our motivation to conserve

41:41

the natural world. Think we're We're

41:43

all know aware that we need

41:45

beast thrive because they're doing something

41:47

useful for us the pollen at

41:50

a crops. but that's an argument

41:52

from utility. It's not one that

41:54

grows out of respect. That.

41:57

motivational think is less

41:59

why spread yet for

42:02

things like bees. And I think that's

42:04

an important message that grows directly from

42:06

our findings is this respect for other

42:09

animals with other minds but no

42:11

less valid ways of thinking and

42:13

feeling about the world. So

42:17

tell me about the killer of bee queens. So

42:22

I have a band, a music project

42:24

in which we

42:26

generated an album, a kind

42:28

of concept album about

42:30

the world of bees. It's

42:33

a kind of 1980s style

42:35

independent rock music album and

42:38

that came about because while

42:41

of course I am scientifically

42:43

deeply fascinated by bees

42:46

but there is of course an element

42:48

of poetry. And

42:51

that if you think let's say

42:53

just about the world of the

42:55

honey bee drone, nowhere

42:58

in the animal kingdom is sex

43:00

and death so close together. So they

43:02

only ever mate once in their lives

43:05

but then they die. They die in

43:07

the act of mating basically and

43:10

all the many drones that are

43:12

unsuccessful in ever finding a queen

43:15

are basically slaughtered at the end of the

43:17

summer by the worker bees who

43:19

no longer have any use for them at that

43:21

time. And likewise if

43:23

you think about the queen's life we

43:26

tend to think of the bee

43:28

society as one that's full

43:30

of harmony and working together

43:32

in cooperation but a

43:34

queen's life begins in a

43:36

quite Shakespearean way by typically

43:39

attempting and succeeding in many cases

43:41

in killing all her competitors, all

43:43

her sister queens. Then

43:47

she mates with drones typically

43:49

with several dozen in rapid

43:51

succession in these drone

43:53

congregation areas and

43:55

they will never mate again they

43:58

basically return to the life

44:00

of a cave animal after these

44:02

exciting youthful experiences.

44:05

And all of this, I

44:07

think, lends itself to writing stories about

44:09

and linking it to music. Lars,

44:12

thank you. It's been fascinating. I

44:15

learned so much. And

44:17

I now think of bees so differently.

44:19

Thank you. Thank you very

44:21

much. This has been a very interesting conversation.

44:34

So, this is Lars Cheka, author of The

44:36

Mind of a Bee. And this is

44:38

his band, Killer Bee Queens, performing their

44:40

song, Drone Wars. Coming

45:03

up, Alex I. News' quest to make

45:05

classic I.A. I.A.

45:39

with Zibi. I'm an

45:41

author, publisher, podcaster, bookstore owner.

45:43

My own novel, Blank, is

45:45

out March 1st. And if

45:47

you love books, you're in the right place. In

45:50

fact, we call it the Zibiverse, or rather, the

45:52

LA Times calls it the Zibiverse. Check

45:54

us out. Moms don't have time to read books

45:56

with Zibi. Acast

46:00

helps creators launch, grow,

46:02

and monetize their podcasts

46:04

everywhere. acast.com. I'm

46:12

Christopher Kimball. You're listening to Milk Street

46:15

Radio. I'm joined now by Lynn Clark

46:17

to talk about this week's recipe, Basque-style

46:19

cheesecake. Lynn, how are you? I'm

46:22

doing great, Chris. How are you doing? We've

46:24

been doing this so long. We must have done,

46:26

what, 10 cheesecakes by now, I think? Probably. At

46:29

least. At least. And

46:31

it used to be cheesecakes all needed, a water bath, and they

46:33

tend to be on the heavy side. But

46:35

this time, we did a Basque cheesecake,

46:37

which has two things about

46:39

it that are remarkable, a dark,

46:42

almost black top, which I think adds

46:44

a nice contrast, and then

46:46

an interior that's, I think, more custardy than

46:48

heavy New York-style cheesecake. So it's

46:50

got to be right up there on the top, you know, one

46:52

or two cheesecakes. Getting the formula

46:54

right, we thought it was going to be easy,

46:57

but it turned out to be a little bit

46:59

less easier than we thought. That's exactly

47:01

right. So this is from the

47:03

Basque country, San Sebastian, in Spain.

47:05

It originated at a little bar

47:08

restaurant there called La Vina. You

47:11

know, it's eggs, sugar, cream cheese, and

47:13

heavy cream, basically. Those are the only

47:15

ingredients. The recipe was actually published

47:17

by the chef who created it. So

47:20

we started with that, thinking this is going

47:22

to be great. We're going to have this

47:24

really amazing recipe. It was great

47:26

when we made it at Milk Street. However,

47:30

we sent people out to try it at

47:32

home, and they had kind of wildly

47:34

different results. So it came down

47:36

to, you know, knowing your oven, taking

47:38

the temperature of the cheesecake, and

47:41

your equipment. So if you're using a light-colored pan,

47:43

you want to bake it at 450. If

47:45

you're using a darker-colored pan, you want to bake it

47:47

at 425. And

47:50

that will help get the proper results.

47:53

But what we found that really kind of

47:55

gave a good insurance

47:57

policy on getting success with this recipe.

48:00

And, you know, when we think

48:02

about cheesecake, it kind of is a way

48:04

to solve most cheesecake problems. It

48:06

was chilling the batter. So we chilled the

48:09

batter for six hours, at least, you can

48:11

do it for 24 hours. That

48:14

allows the cheesecake to kind of slowly

48:16

come up to temperature. So you have

48:18

enough time to get that really dark

48:20

top, but the cheesecake itself doesn't get

48:22

overcooked. So you keep that nice custardy

48:24

texture on the inside. And

48:26

then you've got this really great contrast between the

48:29

top and the creamy interior. And

48:31

you can make it the day before because you can just slip

48:33

it into the oven when you need to. Exactly.

48:36

It was my favorite kind of dessert. I just made

48:38

this over the weekend for a party. And

48:41

it was great because I did all the work the

48:43

day before. I just put it in the oven, baked

48:45

it, and it was ready to go when people came

48:47

over. Yeah, I noticed I didn't get an invitation at a party.

48:50

It must have been great. It was my first time making

48:52

it. I can't make it for you the first time.

48:54

I know. That's crazy reason. So

48:56

Bastile Cheesecake has an almost burnt top as

48:59

a custardy center. It doesn't need a water

49:01

bath. And you can prepare the batter a

49:03

day ahead. Thank you, Lynn. You're welcome. You

49:07

can get the recipe for Bastile

49:09

Cheesecake at milksreetradio.com. This

49:18

is Milk Street Radio. Now it's time to check

49:20

in with Alex I News. Alex,

49:23

how are you? I'm good, Kees. I'm

49:25

great. What's up? I've

49:27

been working on paella very recently.

49:30

After doing a trip to Spain

49:32

to Valencia, which is the birthplace

49:34

of paella, I

49:36

have the urge to try

49:38

and recreate this absolute magnificent

49:40

dish that I tasted there.

49:42

Now I've always thought that

49:45

paella was this huge

49:47

pile of bright yellow

49:49

almost fluorescent rice with tons and

49:51

tons of toppings on it, including

49:53

any seafood you could think of

49:56

and any meat you could think

49:58

of. Paella, you're welcome. not

50:00

that. Paya is first and foremost properly

50:03

cooked rice. Well and

50:05

it's also a relatively thin layer of

50:07

rice which is so different

50:10

than sort of the 1960s

50:12

and 70s Paya recipes we had here.

50:15

Exactly like the perfect Paya is

50:17

clearly a thin layer of rice, I'm talking

50:19

about half an inch of rice in the

50:21

pan, and a few toppings on it. It

50:24

looks very minimal. Now

50:26

after coming back from my trip to

50:28

Spain I understood the importance of rice

50:30

and I made it a mission for

50:33

myself to try and recreate that rice

50:35

to perfection. To understand

50:37

Paya rice and

50:39

to make it great it's about understanding

50:41

first texture but also

50:43

flavor. Texture because Paya

50:45

rice needs to be not overcooked,

50:48

not undercooked and every little grain

50:50

of rice needs to be separated

50:52

from the other. In terms

50:55

of rice variety Paya is

50:57

calling for Bomba rice, a

50:59

short grain rice that resists

51:01

the cooking very well. It's

51:03

very resistant to overcooking in

51:05

general. That rice

51:07

needs to be cooked in a broth which

51:09

obviously you have to make yourself.

51:12

I made my broth using carrots,

51:14

celery, onion, that's a very classic

51:16

broth but I also added some

51:18

elements of the sea because

51:20

my dream Paya is always with seafood

51:23

so I used fish bones and

51:26

also bits and pieces from scallops.

51:29

Now when it comes to actually making the Paya,

51:31

once you have all your ingredients ready this is

51:33

how you start. You place a pan over

51:36

medium heat and you start frying the

51:38

toppings you're going to use afterwards, frying

51:40

the seafood. I use two

51:42

shrimps and two scallops and

51:44

this is a serving for two persons

51:47

which may sound very minimal,

51:49

almost incredibly cheap and stinky if

51:51

I may add. Well

51:53

I don't mind being judged

51:56

as long as I keep the tradition

51:58

alive. So I went for two. shrimps

52:00

and two scallops. I fry them briefly and

52:02

then I set them aside and then I

52:05

actually focus on the rice.

52:07

First layer you roast a

52:10

bit of tomato and pimenton

52:12

that is smoked paprika and

52:14

also garlic in a pan with a bit

52:16

of oil obviously. You then

52:18

throw in the rice without any broth

52:21

at first because you want to roast

52:23

it and create some sort of a

52:25

very thin crust on the rice.

52:28

Then you add the stock and

52:30

so starts the first stage

52:32

of cooking the rice which is boiling

52:35

the rice for 10 minutes. They're

52:38

easy nothing complicated to it.

52:40

After these 10 minutes the

52:42

grains are almost cooked but

52:44

they need to be simmered for another

52:47

10 minutes. Now during

52:49

that time you want to introduce all

52:51

the delicate flavor that's when

52:53

you want to bring back the scallops and

52:55

the shrimps to the pan and that's where

52:57

you can also add some saffron which I

52:59

think is crucial to

53:01

making paella both in terms of flavor

53:04

and color. After these 20

53:06

minutes of cooking you may think that the

53:08

rice is now done it's ready to be

53:10

enjoyed. Wrong! You couldn't be

53:12

more wrong. The last step... I

53:15

love it when you get upset

53:17

and start yelling. Well I always

53:19

get upset when I cook. You're

53:21

passionate. Exactly. The last crucial step

53:23

without which paella can't

53:25

be called paella is

53:27

to create a socarat. A socarat

53:31

is an almighty secret

53:34

crust that is located

53:36

at the very bottom of the pan

53:39

and you create that socarat, that crust

53:42

by briefly toasting the whole dish

53:44

for 30 seconds on high

53:46

heat once everything is cooked. That's a

53:48

very scary move for a cook. Just

53:50

imagine all the work you have put

53:53

into that dish and

53:55

you risk the chance of

53:57

ruining it by doing this. If

54:00

you do it carefully and you pray the

54:02

gods of Paya, you might end up

54:04

with a perfect Paya in the end.

54:08

I didn't know the god of Paya lived in Paris. Alex,

54:11

thank you so much. A quick lesson in

54:13

making great Paya. Take care. Thank you so

54:15

much. That

54:18

was Alex I. News, host of Just a

54:20

French Guy Cooking on YouTube. That's

54:24

it for this week's show. Please

54:26

don't forget you can find more

54:29

than 250 episodes of Milk Street

54:31

Radio at our website milkstreetradio.com or

54:33

wherever you get your podcasts. You

54:35

can learn more about us at

54:38

177milkstreet.com. There you can become a

54:40

member and get thousands of recipes, access to

54:42

our online cooking classes, and get free shipping

54:44

on all orders from the Milk Street store.

54:48

You can also learn about our latest

54:50

cookbook, Milk Street Simple. Please

54:52

check us out on Facebook at Christopher Kimmels Milk

54:54

Street. Instagram is 177milk Street. We'll

54:58

be back next week and thanks as always for listening.

55:18

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55:21

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55:23

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55:30

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55:32

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