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of and. About.

2:39

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2:41

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2:43

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2:46

means. Window find a day and we

2:48

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her children. That's Chance at

2:57

Noon. Author of a new

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memoir slow Noodles she joins

3:01

us later the show her

3:04

story of survival during the

3:06

Cambodian genesis. Or

3:09

First Reporter Mackenzie Martin is here to

3:11

share the story of the world's first

3:13

fast food restaurant. He wasn't Mcdonalds or

3:16

Burger King, he was White Castle born

3:18

in Nineteen Twenty one in Wichita. Kansas.

3:21

Because. The Mardan originally reported the story

3:24

of White Castle. For. Ninety Nine

3:26

Percent Invisible And for the Casey

3:28

Your Podcast a People's History of

3:30

Kansas City. Mckenzie. Welcome

3:33

the most three. Thank. You so much for

3:35

having me! I'm thrilled to be here! So

3:37

before we get into White castle.

3:40

We. Need to resolve the issue of

3:42

the slider. I thought a slider

3:44

was like a little tiny burger

3:46

on a little butter hamburger role

3:49

serve that. You know, functions

3:51

or parties? whatever. But that's really not

3:53

what it is. What is a slider?

3:56

so this was something that kind of set me

3:58

up at the beginning of this reporting but

4:00

best I can cobble together. A slider

4:03

is not a mini burger contrary to

4:05

what many people think. It is a

4:08

burger grilled with raw onions and

4:10

it directly ties into our conversation today

4:13

because that is how Walt Anderson made

4:15

his burgers. So let's

4:18

go back to the very beginning. How did

4:20

this get started and where did it get

4:23

started? So the whole White Castle origin

4:25

story starts in 1916 with Walt Anderson

4:28

in Wichita, Kansas. As

4:31

the legend goes, you know, he's working at

4:33

this diner and he's frying all these meatballs

4:35

as part of his job and he's getting

4:37

frustrated because they're not frying fast

4:39

enough so he slams them down with

4:41

a spatula and he creates

4:43

the hamburger or at least what some

4:46

people claim is the modern hamburger. He

4:48

adds a bun and that becomes what

4:50

a lot of people associate that food

4:52

as today and so his

4:54

hamburgers become very popular. He goes out on

4:56

his own and he gets one

4:59

stand and he's got two stands and he's

5:01

got three stands. So then

5:03

he meets Billy Ingram who is

5:05

this real estate broker and marketing

5:07

genius who kind of turns Walt's

5:09

sandwich joints into this real restaurant

5:11

chain and at the time there

5:13

really isn't a lot of competition

5:15

and so Billy Ingram's

5:17

plan is to pretty much convince

5:19

America to eat hamburgers and it

5:22

comes down to promising them the same

5:24

perfect experience every time. So one

5:27

thing you just hinted at was that

5:29

the burger was not socially

5:32

acceptable for, you know,

5:34

the middle or upper class and

5:36

ground meat, once Upton

5:38

Sinclair published The Jungle, I

5:42

think nobody in their right mind would ever

5:44

eat ground beef again. Yeah. Stories

5:46

of the rats and everything else in

5:48

those horrible slaughterhouses in Chicago.

5:51

So if you were middle class you

5:54

probably wouldn't want to be seen eating

5:57

at one of the original Walt Anderson

5:59

burger joints. because that

6:02

was beneath you, I guess, because of the

6:04

bad reputation of burgers and ground meat. Exactly.

6:08

And it's actually interesting. I

6:10

don't know if you ran across this,

6:12

but in my reporting, I was able

6:14

to find this article from the local

6:16

newspaper in Wichita where Walt Anderson was

6:18

interviewed talking about how he used to

6:20

see people pull up in limousines and

6:23

park farther away, and they'd

6:25

send kids over to get the hamburgers, and

6:27

then the kids would go back to their

6:29

moms because their moms were too embarrassed to

6:31

be buying hamburgers at a hamburger stand. And

6:34

it's kind of impressive that Billy Ingram

6:37

saw this and thought, this is

6:39

what I want to do next. This is what

6:41

I think I can really succeed in. I mean,

6:44

at the time, the founders of White Castle were trying

6:46

to prove that they were going to stick around. Like,

6:48

this isn't a stand. This isn't something you're taking down

6:50

at the end of the night. This

6:53

is going to stay for decades. The

6:56

White was to signal purity. The

6:58

Castle was to signify strength and

7:00

permanence. And that's basically

7:02

White Castle's pitch to Americans to

7:04

eat these hamburgers. And

7:06

it works. It becomes wildly successful.

7:08

And throughout the 20s, they just start

7:10

rapidly expanding. One of the things

7:13

I liked you wrote about is that working there

7:15

was actually – it was two

7:17

things. There was a lot of specifics about

7:19

what you look like and how you're dressed,

7:22

but also they got paid reasonably

7:24

well and also got benefits

7:27

before most companies gave them to you. But

7:30

the look yourself over poster, which

7:32

I looked up, no

7:34

body odor, correct bad breath. I

7:36

like that correct bad breath. No

7:39

flashy jewelry, like no big watches. Fingernails

7:41

had to be kept neat and clean. So

7:45

they wanted to control

7:48

their image. It's interesting.

7:50

It's like they did want to control

7:52

their employees and they had very high

7:54

standards. They expected their employees to be

7:57

extremely friendly and nice to customers. supposed

8:00

to be an experience that you enjoyed.

8:02

And it's also interesting, when

8:04

they started out, I mean, they expanded

8:06

rapidly in the 1920s, but still

8:09

Billy Ingram prided himself

8:11

on knowing everyone's name at every

8:13

location. They bought a plane

8:16

and they would travel around to

8:18

various locations. I mean, they

8:20

really cared that people were doing a good

8:22

job and that they were putting out a

8:24

really good product. It was really important to

8:26

them that whether you got a hamburger in

8:28

St. Louis, Missouri, or Omaha, Nebraska, that it

8:31

tasted exactly the same and that

8:33

you had the same experience. Yeah,

8:35

I saw the note about the plane. So the

8:37

first one opens in 1921, six years later they

8:40

have their own plane. So the

8:42

margins at these little hamburger joints had

8:44

to be pretty good. This was in

8:47

a 3% restaurant margin to end

8:49

up buying a plane. Yeah, I would say

8:51

they didn't really have any competition at the beginning.

8:54

And so it was really easy for them

8:56

to go in and do their

8:59

thing in many different cities. They ended up

9:01

having a stronghold in New York City, maybe

9:03

around the late 20s, and

9:05

burgers got really trendy because of White

9:08

Castle. And of course, we

9:10

haven't talked about the copycats yet. Yeah,

9:12

there was Milwaukee's White Tower, there was

9:14

Little Castle with a K in

9:17

Wichita. And I guess

9:19

they won a lawsuit against some of

9:21

the copycats. Yeah, White Tower

9:23

was probably the most egregious example because

9:26

they copied it to a T. But

9:28

at the same time, there were also

9:30

places that just called themselves White Castle.

9:32

There were places that just absolutely stole

9:35

the name outright. Yeah, and they

9:37

stole the tagline. So the White Castle slogan

9:39

early on was buy them by the sack.

9:42

And McDonald's, if you look at the early

9:44

McDonald's locations, you'll see on the marquee, buy

9:46

them by the bag. So you buy

9:49

half a dozen burgers and you go eat them

9:51

with your kids and whatever? Yeah,

9:54

I mean, because they were small, people would

9:56

just eat lots of them. And it's interesting

9:58

that that is still a huge. huge part

10:00

of White Castle culture today. So

10:03

White Castle culture today is you go

10:05

in and eat two or three of

10:07

them? Ooh,

10:10

I would say people sometimes buy

10:12

a 10 sec. So

10:14

I think bigger. Oh yeah, people really

10:16

like to buy them. Are you familiar

10:18

that people are so passionate about White

10:20

Castle that they will drive many hours

10:23

to get them? I mean

10:25

look, I can understand being deeply

10:27

passionate about food and yeah, I guess

10:29

I can understand that. Sure. Well

10:31

it's really, it's part of a trip, you know. You get

10:34

a couple friends, you get in the car, and then you

10:36

go there, you get 40 of them. I would

10:39

say that a lot of White Castle fandom

10:41

is eating as many as you can

10:43

in one sitting. So yeah, you can

10:45

get through them pretty quick. Well

10:48

there was that one movie I saw where

10:50

they had, they finally got there

10:52

and they ordered, you know, like 20 each

10:54

or something, just massive amounts. What

10:56

was the name of that movie again? Harold

10:58

and Kumar go to White Castle. Yeah. Looks

11:02

like you guys had some mine, huh?

11:04

I want 30 sliders, five french fries

11:07

and four large cherry cokes. I want

11:09

the same except make mine diet cokes.

11:11

Wow. So where

11:13

are we today with White Castle? You

11:16

said there are 400 left, but

11:18

they're not in a lot of states, right? I mean

11:21

for example, in Boston I don't think there's a White

11:23

Castle. Yeah, it's predominantly

11:25

in the Midwest and then you've got

11:27

some on the East Coast, tons in

11:29

New York, other headquarters is Columbus, Ohio,

11:31

but they also have one in Florida

11:34

and then they have one in Arizona.

11:36

But they do have a big following

11:38

in the freezer aisle too, so you

11:40

can still get sliders probably at your

11:42

local grocery store. There's

11:45

something extraordinarily American about

11:49

doing something that's family-oriented

11:51

that's about excellence, right, and

11:54

is about something that is inexpensive and

11:57

for the every man or woman. Burgers

12:00

were what, 10 or 15 cents

12:02

originally? I think it was

12:04

a nickel at the very beginning. A

12:06

nickel. It was a nickel. Here's a

12:08

guy selling nickel burgers and cares deeply about everything

12:12

from soup to nuts as it were. And

12:15

that is very appealing and maybe

12:17

that's why his effort or their effort

12:19

to do that over the decades creates

12:22

the fans, right? Yeah, I

12:24

totally identify with that. And I think

12:26

hamburgers came around at this time when

12:29

people were more affordable to get

12:31

cars and then the highway's being built and

12:33

people are increasingly on the go and you

12:35

can just grab a sack of burgers and

12:37

you're good, you know? You don't need a

12:39

utensil, you know? You just go on to

12:41

where you're going. And it was

12:43

an exciting time for them to come on the scene.

12:45

I mean, the hamburger is

12:47

arguably one of the most American

12:50

foods. In 1937, the president

12:53

of the National Restaurant Association declared that

12:55

the hamburger was as American as apple

12:57

pie and coffee. So this is in

12:59

1937. So

13:01

we've got, you know, like less

13:03

than 20 years since White Castle

13:05

started, but they started with hamburgers

13:07

being disgusting. And what they did

13:09

to it was make it this

13:11

American icon. So it's an

13:13

American story about business, but it's also

13:16

a story about American food. Mackenzie,

13:19

thank you so much. A great story

13:21

about White Castle. And now I'm going to have

13:23

to run into their frozen food section because there's

13:25

not a White Castle around me, but I will

13:27

get some frozen sliders before the week is out

13:29

to try them out. Thank

13:31

you. Thank you so much for having me. This was

13:33

a lot of fun. So

13:38

I was reporter Mackenzie Martin. You can hear

13:40

more of her reporting about White Castle on

13:42

both 99% Invisible and the Case You

13:45

Are podcast, a people's history of

13:47

Kansas City. Yeah,

14:13

I'm joined by my co-host, Sarah Moulton, to

14:15

answer a few of your cooking questions. Sarah

14:17

is, of course, the star of Sarah's weeknight

14:20

meals on public television. Her latest book is

14:22

Home Cooking 101. So,

14:25

Chris, is there anything

14:27

you've seen that other people do

14:29

on TV shows when they're cooking

14:31

that annoys you? You don't

14:33

have to name them. Yeah, I

14:35

mean, look, let's classify the shows,

14:37

the competition shows, which,

14:40

you know, are inherently sort of

14:42

interesting. But when you get

14:44

a basket with foie gras and blueberry jam and

14:46

maple syrup or whatever, it just got silly. Then

14:49

there's the shouting and yelling, you know, Hell's

14:51

Kitchen kind of thing. I guess the

14:53

problem with all that for me is that it's

14:55

like a reality show, but it's as far

14:58

from realities you can possibly get. And

15:00

so I just don't find the drama compelling

15:03

in that. I think something like

15:05

The Bear, that was good. It

15:07

felt real and it had some depth to

15:09

it and the characters were all drawn. Yeah,

15:11

you know, it's interesting because I agree with what

15:14

you just said about the reality shows. They

15:16

don't seem very real and they're also very stressful. You

15:19

know, I worry for everybody as they compete.

15:22

You know, it's like watching your kid in the kindergarten

15:24

play, you know, will they remember their lines?

15:26

Will they be okay? But

15:28

for me, you know, my pet peeve is

15:30

really as an educator and it's

15:32

very specific. I hate it when

15:35

women wear their hair down when

15:37

they're cooking. Nobody should wear their

15:39

hair down in the kitchen. It's such a

15:41

bad message for the whole cook. I

15:43

know. Wait, wait, wait, wait, the

15:45

entire pantheon of food television and this

15:47

is the thing that really,

15:50

really gets under your skin. It does

15:52

because we have to set an

15:54

example. My feeling is I'm talking about,

15:56

you know, the behind the counter teaching shows

15:59

and here. down is like

16:01

just a no-no. Oh my

16:04

god. Yes. Okay. Let's take

16:06

a call. Yeah. Welcome to Mellow

16:08

Street. Who's calling? Hi, this

16:10

is Courtney from Burlington, Vermont. How

16:12

can we help you? I am

16:14

calling because my husband and I

16:16

went out a couple weeks ago

16:18

and picked a whole bunch of

16:20

ramps, wild leaks, and

16:23

I've done a few things with them,

16:25

but I was hoping to get some

16:27

suggestions, aside from like a tart

16:30

or just throwing them in things like eggs

16:33

and things like that, because

16:35

they have a pretty delicate flavor.

16:37

It's funny, two weeks ago I went out Sunday

16:39

morning on a hike with one of my kids

16:41

in Vermont and we harvested

16:43

ramps. Such

16:46

a great thing. Yeah, I mean it was great and it's

16:48

just, you know, they're only available for a short period of

16:50

time. We don't take too many because

16:52

we don't want to rip them all out. If

16:55

you want a flavor that's more interesting than

16:57

onion, I would just add them with onion

16:59

or in place of onion, as you just

17:01

said, with eggs. I would throw them on

17:03

a grill, sheet pan

17:05

dinner with chicken parts and stuff, put some

17:07

of the ramps in the center, let

17:10

that cook down, chop it up, take

17:13

the juices from the chicken, add a

17:15

couple other things, make a pan sauce with that. It

17:18

would be great in rice or make a risotto with

17:20

it. Sarah? Yeah, I

17:22

mean you can also use it in sauces, you

17:24

know, any of those cold sauces that you might

17:26

make, you know, chop it up really fine, the

17:29

bulb being slightly stronger than the leaves. And

17:31

you know, like you can put it into aioli or

17:33

a satsiki, anywhere

17:36

you might have put raw garlic,

17:39

you know, you'd be able to taste it there. Or

17:42

put it into a compound butter and then,

17:44

you know, mince it really fine, put it

17:46

into some butter with some fresh herbs, whatever

17:48

you'd like, whether it be

17:50

basil or tarragon or oregano, and

17:52

then freeze it. And then

17:54

you'll have it, you know, down the road later

17:57

on when you're just would love to have some

17:59

ramps again. Dan. You know what

18:01

I love though? There are two things, fiddle

18:03

head ferns and ramps because then you know

18:05

winter's over. It's

18:08

that first strong taste of something coming

18:10

out of the grass. It's just that

18:12

great moment, right? Yes. Well I

18:14

love those ideas. I love the tatiki

18:16

idea, love the roasted chicken risotto. Mmm.

18:19

They're all making my mouth water and

18:21

now I can't wait for next early

18:23

spring again. If you had ramps

18:25

all year round, you'd be sick of them. They

18:27

wouldn't be quite so special. What are we having

18:29

for dinner? Oh not again. Yeah. Courtney,

18:32

thank you so much for calling and good luck

18:34

with the ramps. Yes. Alright, thank you

18:36

guys so much. I appreciate it. It's always great to

18:38

talk to you. Take care. Take care.

18:40

Bye bye. This is

18:42

Milk Street Radio. If you need some inspiration in

18:45

the kitchen, give us a call anytime. Our number

18:47

is 855-426-9843. That's 855-426-9843 or send

18:55

us an email at questions at

18:58

milkstreetradio.com. Welcome

19:00

to Milk Street. Who's calling? Hi

19:03

there. My name's Lynn and I'm calling from

19:05

the San Francisco Peninsula. How are y'all today?

19:07

We are good. Good. How are

19:09

you? I'm loving life and I'm excited

19:12

to talk to you. I have a few

19:14

questions all around baking. Alright. Well

19:16

shoot. Okay. The thing that

19:18

ties my questions together is my confusion

19:21

about terms like crumb and texture and

19:23

what makes a cake tender versus not

19:25

tender and are all these a

19:27

matter of preference or what does a good baker

19:30

strive for and what would

19:32

I look for in a recipe if I

19:34

wanted a fine crumb versus not a fine

19:36

crumb and is it the

19:38

ratio of the ingredients? Is it the technique

19:41

that affects this like reverse creaming or whatever

19:43

you call the opposite or

19:45

is it the tool whether a whisk or

19:47

flat beater is used? The

19:49

question that originally sent me down this

19:51

rabbit hole has to do with the

19:53

use of butter versus margarine in baking

19:55

and I've always used butter hearing

19:57

that you get a better product and it has more flavor.

20:00

blah blah, but I'm hearing

20:02

recently that margarine has its place in

20:04

baking and if that's

20:07

true can I use it interchangeably with butter

20:09

or can I split it 50-50 to get

20:12

the best of both worlds or I'm befuddled

20:14

and I'd love you to set me straight. The

20:17

reason margarine is better well I would

20:19

never eat margarine but it's

20:21

oil essentially and that

20:23

oil, oil in cakes as we

20:25

all know like carrot cake will

20:27

keep it fresher and give you a

20:29

moisture texture so that's why margarine is

20:32

better quote-unquote better than butter. I would not use

20:34

margarine just use oil. I mean

20:37

you can substitute vegetable oil for melted

20:39

butter in a cake that's why margarine

20:41

will give you better texture. Right but

20:43

flavor wise well terrible yeah you really

20:45

want to go for butter. So

20:48

but in a cake like a carrot cake or a

20:50

zucchini cake, other things

20:53

take over. There's no problem substituting

20:55

oil for melted butter in a

20:57

cake if you want better moisture

21:00

texture it'll last longer. You

21:02

could substitute some of the melted butter for

21:05

it but if you're creaming butter with sugar to get

21:07

a lighter texture you can't substitute oil.

21:10

Yeah yeah got

21:12

it. Reverse creaming is when you take

21:14

softened butter and mix it with flour

21:17

that's the first thing you do in

21:19

a cake recipe and

21:21

that protects the flour from

21:23

gluten development and you get a softer texture.

21:27

If you use cake flour you'll get

21:29

a finer texture right softer finer texture

21:32

so the method of mixing affects

21:34

it and the type of flour

21:36

using affects it and the

21:38

amount of fat in the recipe also affects

21:40

it and the amount of

21:42

sugar you know all those factors so

21:44

in general reverse creaming will

21:47

give you a softer texture and in

21:49

general cake flour will give you a

21:51

finer texture than all-purpose but there's a million

21:53

other things going on in cake recipes.

21:56

I looked at some of my favorite cake recipes

21:58

and they generally don't specify whisk

22:00

versus flat blade or whatever. They

22:02

just tell you to mix them together. Cake

22:05

batters, you tend to see the

22:07

flat paddle used for that. Usually

22:10

a whisk is there to incorporate a lot of air.

22:12

So if you're beating butter and sugar, for example, or

22:14

egg whites or cream, you want

22:16

to incorporate air and the whisk will

22:19

do that better. The paddle is used

22:21

to mix ingredients together without incorporating a

22:23

ton of air. That's the difference.

22:26

I will say though, you can get

22:28

away for a whisk for a paddle. You can't

22:30

use a paddle or a whisk is necessary. But

22:32

if you wanted to mix the batter with a

22:34

whisk, that's fine. I

22:36

mean, I wouldn't worry about it. Well, if

22:38

y'all are ever in the San Francisco area, I would

22:40

love to have you dinner. You comment on how no

22:43

one wants to have you over for dinner. They're afraid

22:45

to cook for you. I'll cook for you. I

22:47

will remember this invitation to take you up

22:49

on. You'll be in trouble. Watch out. Okay.

22:51

Anyway, take care. Thank you. Thank you so

22:53

much. Bye. Bye. Bye. Welcome

22:55

to Milk Street. Who's calling? This is

22:58

John in Cupertino, California, the

23:00

heart of Silicon Valley. Okay,

23:03

then. Hi, John. How can

23:05

we help you? Well, I've been

23:07

baking and cooking all my life. I

23:09

grew up at a farm in Kansas

23:11

and learned in 4-H and I've been

23:14

spending years to perfect my lemon meringue

23:16

pie recipe. And lately I've

23:18

been having severe problems with the

23:21

meringue shrinking and

23:24

going from 3 inches down to half

23:26

an inch within a few

23:28

hours. And I'm not quite sure what

23:30

I'm doing differently now. Well,

23:33

how many egg whites are you

23:35

using? The recipe calls

23:37

for three eggs, three yolks for

23:39

the filling, and three for

23:42

the meringue. Now, I found

23:44

that never nearly enough. So I've

23:46

been supplementing that with this instant

23:48

egg white, which is simply hydrated

23:51

egg white for another three

23:53

or four eggs worth. And

23:55

maybe that's my problem. Well, no. Also, tell

23:57

me what else you're doing. Well,

24:00

I'm making sure the egg whites are at

24:02

room temperature and that the

24:04

mixer is not cold either Some

24:07

recipes call for adding this corn starch

24:10

slurry to it Yes, but I haven't

24:12

done that and I don't know if

24:14

that is to keep it from shrinking

24:16

Perhaps I should try that maybe I'm

24:18

not whipping it enough. I'm not sure

24:21

I have a couple thoughts Are you adding

24:23

sugar to the egg whites when you beat them? First

24:26

I mix it on low for about a

24:28

minute right now It's for me to get

24:31

a little bubbly and then I drop in

24:33

about six Slowly

24:35

over about a minute. Well, that sounds

24:38

about right. Do you use any cream of

24:40

tartar lemon juice a pinch

24:43

of cream of tartar pinch of salt

24:45

and a teaspoon of vanilla It

24:48

sounds sort of right. It's like what we should

24:50

have called you. Yeah. Okay. Well that well

24:52

that's we do everything right I mean sugar

24:54

is gonna help give you the

24:57

right texture. It's gonna help set the whites

24:59

and the cream of tartar also Stabilizes

25:02

them to help set the structure. So to what

25:05

point are you? Whipping these

25:07

is it a two-inch peak is that how do you

25:09

know when the egg whites are done? When

25:11

it's a pretty stiff peak, but

25:14

maybe it could be stiffer It

25:16

comes out of the oven beautifully, but then

25:19

because it's five or six hours. It's like

25:21

shrunk down Oh my gosh, the meringue is

25:23

like half an inch thick instead of three

25:25

inches high Yeah,

25:28

you said though you're mixing fresh

25:30

egg whites with powdered egg whites.

25:33

Yeah, I'm gonna be honest I haven't

25:35

used powdered egg whites. They're pasteurized. So that's a

25:37

real plus because they're safe You don't have

25:40

to worry about salmonella, but my

25:42

girlfriend who's a pastry chef I believe this

25:44

told me she doesn't get the same volume.

25:46

Yeah, I would or same Can

25:48

the powder? Yeah, and just use

25:51

five or six egg whites and that'll carry

25:53

your prom There's something odd going on and

25:55

just add the extra egg yolks to your

25:57

scrambled eggs the next morning And

26:00

you know I'm thrifty and that's why I'm trying

26:02

to do this. In fact, at first I thought,

26:04

well, let's just throw the extra egg yolks in

26:07

the filling. And then it makes it like lemon

26:09

meringue soup because the filling doesn't set up. Yeah,

26:11

but I think the dehydrated egg whites are just

26:13

not the same. You said

26:15

three inches down to half an inch, which sounds like... And

26:18

that's what you're doing different than you used to. Yeah,

26:20

that's weird. Yeah, I think it is. You

26:22

know what? I'm going to do

26:24

an experiment. I'm going to make two pies, one

26:26

with the dehydrated egg whites and one with

26:28

six or seven egg whites. Do it. And

26:30

then take pictures. And then, John, get

26:33

back to us. I promise. Okay, all right, it's

26:35

the deal. Hey, John, thank you. Thank you. Love

26:38

your show. Thank you. Thank

26:40

you. Bye-bye. You're

26:42

listening to Milk Street Radio. After

26:45

the break, love, loss and family

26:47

recipes with Jonathan Nune. That's

26:49

in just a moment.

26:55

I'm Christopher Kimball, and now here's a word

26:58

from our friends at Allagash Brewing Company, who

27:00

love food as much as we do here at

27:02

Milk Street. Hi, this is

27:04

Jason Perkins. I'm the brewmaster at Allagash, and

27:07

I've been making Allagash white in Portland, Maine

27:09

since So,

27:12

a white beer is a very old style

27:14

of beer. Traditionally, it was

27:16

brewed with spices of some type,

27:18

typically coriander and orange peel. I

27:21

think one of the things that makes

27:23

Allagash white distinctive and different is the

27:26

rare combination of complexity and

27:29

drinkability. And it's sometimes

27:31

remarkable to stop and realize

27:34

that I never get tired of it. You know,

27:36

I'll open a can or I'll pour a glass,

27:39

and the first sip, and I'm

27:41

like, man, this beer is good.

27:45

There are a lot of different ways that folks can enjoy

27:47

an Allagash white, and here are some of the examples of

27:49

what folks here at the brewery like to do. full

28:00

seared scallops over a bed of

28:02

fresh greens with blood orange and

28:04

shaved fennel. My

28:06

favorite would probably have to be like

28:09

an Italian or a hoagie, capicola,

28:12

pickled vegetables, crusty

28:15

bread. It's got that

28:17

nice lemony, zesty character that

28:20

just gets you ready for the

28:22

next bite. The

28:24

ultimate pairing for me is

28:26

this dish called bosaam, which

28:29

is this like big pork shoulder with

28:31

like salt and brown sugar. We also call

28:33

it candy pork in my house and

28:36

a little like scallion ginger sauce. It's

28:39

like lettuce, rice, pork, sip of white,

28:41

lettuce, rice, pork, sip of white, and

28:43

it's just perfection. My

28:45

other top choice is like a hot dog. Like just have

28:48

a hot dog and have an allagash white. You don't need

28:50

to dress it up. There's something about mussels with

28:52

beer, especially the white, that

28:55

is just so good. I

28:59

feel like it goes really well with different

29:01

soft cheeses that aren't too dominant, but then

29:03

also with like spicy Indian food. So I

29:06

think it's just really versatile.

29:08

I could imagine like something

29:10

like lemon meringue pie.

29:12

That would be really nice. Pairing allagash

29:14

white with carrot cake is a

29:16

thing of beauty. This may be, it sounds really

29:18

boring, but pepperoni pizza, I

29:21

feel like after a long

29:23

week, having like a nice warm

29:26

pepperoni pizza and a cold allagash

29:28

white is just like

29:31

you made it. Like you did your week. You

29:33

deserve this pizza. You deserve this beer. It's

29:36

perfect in summer. It's perfect

29:38

in winter. I

29:41

haven't really found a flavor that I don't think

29:43

works really well with allagash white. It's just so

29:45

good. Yeah,

29:48

so not only do I drink it while

29:50

I cook, I often cook with it. So

29:52

if I'm creating some kind of

29:54

stew, I'll

29:56

add a little bit of allagash white to it. allagash

30:00

white in like a fried fish batter. Anywhere

30:02

where you can add like a spritz of

30:05

lemon or a spritz of lime, that could

30:07

be the beer. We

30:11

are very food minded here at Allagash,

30:14

obviously, and I

30:16

think because of that, allagash

30:18

white is kind

30:20

of subtle in a way that not all beers

30:22

are and I think that makes

30:24

it very food friendly. I think

30:26

it tends to unlock qualities in the food

30:29

that you otherwise wouldn't necessarily notice. Like it's

30:31

not too hoppy or it's not too sweet,

30:33

so it sits right in the middle and

30:35

sort of brings the flavor of the dish

30:37

to life. If you ask anyone here at

30:39

Allagash, we're pretty much all stands for this

30:41

beer. We love it so much

30:43

because every time you have it, you pick

30:46

up something new. Every time you

30:48

come back to it, you're reminded like, oh wow,

30:50

yeah, that's really good. This

30:56

is Jason Perkins again. Just want to say

30:58

thanks to everyone at Allagash for sharing. You

31:00

can try Allagash White at home too. Head

31:03

to allagash.com slash locator to

31:05

find Allagash White near you. For

31:07

21 plus only, please drink responsibly.

31:10

Allagash Brewing Company, Portland, Maine. This

31:16

is Mill Street Radio. I'm your host, Christopher

31:18

Kimball. My next guest,

31:21

Chantha Noon, grew up in Cambodia in

31:23

the 1960s where her life was easy.

31:26

She says that her mother loved to

31:28

indulge both herself with elegant clothes and

31:30

her guests with extravagant meals. But

31:33

then, just before Chantha turned nine, everything

31:36

changed. Her father died

31:38

and her family had to flee

31:40

Cambodia to escape the Communist Army,

31:42

which targeted ethnic Vietnamese like Chantha

31:44

and her family. Chantha

31:47

lost everything. Hunger

31:49

focuses the mind, but shrinks

31:51

one's hopes. In

31:54

a way, I was lucky. Though

31:57

I'd lost my home and my family, There

32:00

was something no one could take away, a

32:03

happy childhood rich with

32:05

the flavors of my mother's cooking. That's

32:08

Chanthe's daughter, Clara, reading from Chanthe's

32:10

new book, Slow Noodles, which she

32:12

co-wrote with Kim Green. It's

32:15

part memoir and part cookbook. Now

32:18

that I finally have a kitchen of my own,

32:21

I found a sweeter way to resurrect

32:23

the past, rekindling the

32:25

aromas of my mother's cooking. When

32:28

I stove the charcoal grill for roasting

32:30

pork ribs, or stir coconut milk into

32:33

fish I mock, I revert

32:35

to the age when I tasted the dish

32:37

for the first time. And

32:39

my mother's image comes flooding back. In

32:43

Slow Noodles, Chanthe recounts her life as

32:45

a refugee, which included cooking

32:47

in a brothel, serving drinks in

32:49

a nightclub, making street food, many

32:52

years in a Thai refugee camp,

32:54

and working as a nurse with Doctors

32:56

Without Borders. Through it

32:59

all, she relied on her mother's slow

33:01

noodles approach to both healing and cooking.

33:04

Chanthe, welcome to Mill Street. Oh,

33:06

thank you for having me, Chris. It's

33:09

an honor. You were

33:11

born in the year of the buffalo, and

33:16

you write a child born in the buffalo

33:18

year is industrious and

33:20

stubborn as she must be, for

33:22

her toils will likely take many years to

33:24

bear fruit. No

33:27

saviors will magically appear, so

33:30

she must learn to depend on herself.

33:33

That was a pretty good, unfortunately,

33:36

prediction of much

33:38

of your life. Many,

33:41

many years, and nobody

33:43

came out of the blue to solve

33:45

your problems, right? That's right. And

33:48

that's what we still believe. The year we

33:50

were born is, you know,

33:52

defining our lives. So

33:55

explain to me growing up, so

33:58

what kind of place did you live in? been in

34:00

Cambodia, what was that like, your early

34:02

childhood? I, I

34:05

grown up like my, my first

34:07

nine years, which until today, I

34:09

wish I never grow older than

34:11

nine years. And

34:14

that's the best time in my

34:16

life. And my father was a

34:18

mechanic. And I

34:20

had everything. I mean, we

34:22

had food. We

34:25

went to school and around me,

34:27

I had friends in the neighborhood,

34:29

they were poor. So we had

34:31

plenty in the house. And

34:34

I shared fruit

34:37

or candies or anything I

34:39

had. And so that's how

34:41

I, I grown up. So

34:45

you spent the first years of your life

34:47

in Cambodia. And then in 72, you fled

34:49

with some

34:51

of your siblings to Vietnam. Your

34:54

mother stayed behind with one of your older brothers

34:56

to sort out your affairs there. Can

34:58

you tell me why your mother made that

35:00

decision? To keep

35:03

my brothers safe, because

35:05

my father passed

35:08

in 1969. And

35:10

my mother was alone, nobody

35:12

to protect us. So she decided

35:14

to send all of my brothers,

35:17

because we are half Vietnamese to

35:20

Vietnam. And I was the

35:22

youngest. So I

35:25

went with them. And then she

35:27

need to stay behind and

35:29

sell the house of our

35:31

grandparents. But to be able

35:33

to do so, she needs a son. And

35:38

he was 18 the year we left. So

35:40

my brother stayed with my

35:42

mother to be able to sell the house. And

35:46

then we went to Vietnam

35:48

and the house with 20

35:50

people. And we

35:53

had nothing to eat. So that's

35:56

the difference between my nine year

35:58

and 10 year. old.

36:02

So when you arrived in Vietnam in that house

36:05

with 20 people, did

36:08

everyone try to go out and get

36:10

a job for money? I

36:12

guess there were ration cards at the time.

36:16

How did you have any food to eat? I

36:20

was too young to remember, but

36:22

also all I can

36:24

think of was I'm missing my mother.

36:27

Because the first nine years of

36:29

my life I slept with my

36:31

mother. So I couldn't

36:34

sleep at night because I

36:36

just don't have my mother.

36:40

You said in Khmer there's a saying,

36:42

if a father dies the children eat

36:44

rice with fish. If a

36:46

mother dies the children sleep on a leaf. Yes,

36:49

that's our saying. It

36:52

means when the mother

36:54

dies it's more difficult for the father

36:56

to take care of the children. When

36:59

the father dies and we still

37:01

have our mother she always manage.

37:04

She always do everything

37:06

she can to provide for her

37:09

children. So your

37:11

mother does come back or makes

37:13

it to Vietnam, but not your

37:15

brother. And you said that as

37:17

they were trying to walk their

37:20

way to Vietnam the

37:22

soldiers came and your

37:24

brother was conscripted. Yes, and

37:28

that's the reason that we lost him.

37:32

We never seen him again. So

37:35

what happened to the rest of your family who went

37:38

to Vietnam with you? So

37:41

for my brother, the younger

37:43

one among the three, he

37:46

died very soon after we

37:48

arrived in Vietnam. My

37:53

oldest brother, he was the gold diamond

37:55

of the family and he also

37:58

died. of

38:01

peritonitis. And

38:03

then a year later my sister

38:06

died of stomach ulcer. My

38:09

mother, she buried all of

38:11

her children. And

38:14

then she left me on my

38:17

own. She died

38:20

soon after my sister

38:22

passed. So

38:27

after just horrific experience,

38:29

you're almost 20 now.

38:32

You went by yourself to Thailand. Who were

38:35

you traveling with? And why did you

38:37

want to go to Thailand? I

38:39

found a friend, a

38:41

companion because I'm not sure

38:43

that I can do it

38:45

on my own because I

38:47

was totally protected by my

38:49

mother when she's still alive.

38:52

And that's what I did differently to

38:55

my children today. I prepare them so

38:58

that when I die they are

39:00

not that vulnerable like I was.

39:02

So anyway, I found a friend

39:05

and he became my boyfriend.

39:07

And then in the

39:10

refugee camp we became couple. So

39:13

you eventually get back to Cambodia

39:15

and you have

39:17

two children, is that right? Yes.

39:21

You said, which

39:23

I thought was really compelling, you wrote, for

39:25

many years I was so afraid of making

39:27

my own daughter soft. I did

39:29

not hug her. I did not tell Claire I

39:31

loved her. I've been very tough

39:33

on my children to ensure that they will never

39:35

be as vulnerable as I was. You

39:37

think that's, of all the things a

39:40

parent needs to do raising

39:42

children, that you think is

39:44

very, very important? I

39:47

don't think every parent is a

39:49

refugee like me because

39:52

when your mother tries to protect you

39:55

and say, just stay home and I

39:57

will take care of you. that

40:00

absolutely cannot happen to my children.

40:03

So the day she was born, I

40:08

wanted her to be strong. And

40:11

that's why I never hugged her. So

40:14

that when she

40:17

left me, she doesn't need my hug. And

40:21

it just torn my heart

40:23

apart. But

40:26

yes, now they are strong. And

40:30

if I passed, they

40:33

won't be on the street like

40:35

I was when my mother left

40:38

me in this world alone. Do

40:42

you hug your daughter now? The

40:45

first time I hugged her was, see,

40:47

she's in high school. She

40:50

came home and she stepped in the

40:52

door and she yelled, "'Mom, I am

40:54

the top of maths in the whole

40:56

school, not just my class."

40:59

And I just hugged her and she said, "'Mom,

41:01

you hurt me.'" You

41:06

have some recipes in the book,

41:08

which are recipes for life, not

41:12

necessarily just for cooking. And

41:15

I just like to read part of the rice recipe. "'Fill

41:19

a large rice sack with the dozens of

41:21

pairs of stupid clogs you bought to make

41:23

yourself feel less poor. These

41:25

will serve as excellent firewood.'" And

41:28

then you go on, now is

41:30

the time of forgetting, burn the

41:32

shoes, burn the rice, burn away the

41:34

spoiled girl softness. A

41:36

soft young girl with nothing at all will

41:38

not survive the Saigon streets for long. You're

41:40

not ready for this. So

41:43

the book has wonderful

41:45

recipes, but some of them are for

41:48

about how to live, not how to cook, right? Yeah,

41:52

it's up to the

41:54

readers who take on whatever part of

41:56

the book. But

41:59

it's really, really hard for me

42:01

to talk about it anytime at

42:03

all. But you did

42:05

such a wonderful job writing

42:08

about it. I mean, it's

42:10

a very, very difficult story to tell.

42:14

I'd like to play now another clip

42:16

from your daughter Clara, who's reading a

42:19

recipe from your book. It's called Silken

42:21

Rebellion Fish Fry, or

42:23

How to Make Unfresh Fish Taste

42:26

Rather Delicious. This

42:28

is an excellent training dish for a

42:31

teenage refugee girl who is learning to

42:33

cook. Buy the

42:35

least rotten fish you can find in the

42:37

communal store or from your

42:39

neighbor in the market. In

42:41

a bowl, let fish sit for

42:44

one to two hours in

42:46

too much salt, chopped lemongrass,

42:48

garlic, and a vast

42:50

quantity of chili. Overdoing

42:53

it on the salt and chili will

42:55

make your eyes water and

42:57

imbue the old fish with a taste

42:59

of forgetfulness. The idea

43:01

is for you to forget that this is

43:03

a very bad fish indeed. In a

43:06

medium skillet, heat oil over

43:08

high heat. Turn the heat down

43:11

and fry fish slowly until golden

43:14

and crisp. Heat it

43:16

with jasmine rice. If a

43:18

bad fish memory reasserts itself,

43:21

season with more salt and chili as

43:23

needed. All

43:26

the recipes I made for

43:28

my children are all the

43:30

recipes I had in my

43:32

heart, and that helped

43:38

me to survive. Well,

43:40

I just want to say that I love

43:42

the way your recipes and

43:44

experiences reflect one

43:47

another throughout the book. And

43:49

having your daughter's voice on the audiobook, I

43:51

think, really brings it full circle. Yes. So

43:54

about 20 years ago, you started the

43:57

Women's Development Center. Maybe you

43:59

could tell us about that? So

44:02

in 1995 me

44:04

and my partner get a job with

44:06

Doctors Without Borders. They started the project

44:08

in St. Frank and

44:12

one of my five tasks was

44:14

to take care of the dying

44:18

sex worker in the hospital

44:21

and I wanted to continue that

44:23

work. So I

44:25

saw the country had

44:27

a new project called

44:30

Women Diamond and

44:32

started with women literacy and we

44:34

joined in and

44:38

I look at the way how a

44:40

woman who never been to school had

44:43

one year literacy can

44:46

have a job. So

44:48

I used that to combine and we

44:51

teach them weaving. We do

44:53

it in silk and

44:55

our weaver became the

44:58

best weavers in Cambodia and they

45:00

earn like $200 a

45:02

month and that's when the primary

45:07

school teacher earned about

45:09

$40 a month. What

45:12

is Cambodia like today? Cambodia

45:15

today we have much

45:19

much more opportunity for work

45:21

but also the education

45:24

for women in the

45:26

rural areas. Still the

45:29

government is trying very hard

45:32

to improve

45:34

the lives of women but

45:36

it's still we

45:40

still have to do more. Chantia

45:43

this has been an honor for me I

45:46

really really have enjoyed talking to you thank

45:48

you. Thank you for

45:50

having me today. That

45:55

was Chantia Noon. She is co-author

45:57

of Slow Noodles, a Cambodian memoir

45:59

of love loss and family

46:01

recipes. Chantha

46:04

told me that she never hugged her daughter until she

46:06

was 15 years old in order to

46:09

make her more resilient to life's

46:11

tragedies. She also commented,

46:14

my life was over at age 9. A

46:18

Vietnamese proverb says, fire

46:20

tests gold, tough

46:22

situations test endurance. Chantha

46:26

is real gold. You're

46:30

listening to Milk Street Radio. Coming up,

46:32

Alex I News ranks the best pastas at

46:35

the grocery store. Serve

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49:31

Radio. Now let's check in with our

49:33

Paris correspondent, Alex I News. Alex,

49:35

how are you? I'm good,

49:37

Keith. I'm good, but to

49:40

be honest, I've got a

49:42

problem. I think going to a supermarket

49:44

and trying to find a good

49:47

pasta brand is a bit

49:49

of a nightmare. Well, I agree. There

49:51

are too many choices and sometimes the

49:53

really expensive, beautifully packaged ones are not

49:55

the best. Exactly. That's exactly my point.

49:57

I should have called you in the first place. that

50:00

would have spared me from doing a six

50:02

month series on pasta. So I'm

50:04

going to be reviewing a few pasta

50:06

brands and feel free to tell me

50:08

if they're available in the US, but

50:10

I'm mostly going to concentrate my efforts

50:12

on Italian pasta bread. So

50:14

I'm thinking Barilla obviously is

50:16

available in the US and

50:18

I'm going to start pretty bold, pretty

50:21

sad on this one. It's not a

50:23

good brand. I've been buying Barilla pasta

50:25

my whole life just

50:27

because the package is beautiful in France and

50:29

because the name sounds Italian. What is it

50:31

made in New Jersey or something? No, I

50:33

mean, it could be made in the US

50:35

and be amazing. It's just like it's random

50:38

pasta. The way they made them, the way

50:40

they dry them, the way they

50:42

extrude them. I'll come back on this later,

50:44

but Italians know it and I feel like

50:46

they're not sharing the secret with us for

50:48

dinner. So Barilla, I think if

50:51

you're a foodie, it should be out of the

50:53

game. And trust me, it was sad when I

50:55

learned this with Italian chefs and Italian pasta

50:57

manufacturers. Can I just ask you a question?

50:59

Yeah, like you're supposed to have a great

51:01

palate. You're a sort of a scientist and

51:04

you just said to me you've been eating it your whole life.

51:07

So what's that about? So either I'm a

51:09

fraud, which could be an option. I was

51:11

asking, just asking. I mean, this is honestly,

51:13

so you know what? I grew up eating

51:16

over cooked Barilla pasta. This was my standard.

51:18

So to me, it doesn't taste bad. If

51:21

you never feed someone with the good stuff, that

51:23

doesn't know what the good stuff is. Yeah,

51:25

I always blame my mother or father every

51:27

time I can. Yeah, it's their fault. Yes.

51:31

So is there something better than that? I

51:33

think the Sheko is pretty available in

51:35

the US and the Sheko is a

51:38

huge bump in terms of quality. In

51:40

terms of price, it's probably going to

51:42

cost you 50 cents

51:44

or $1 more per

51:46

package compared to Barilla, for example.

51:49

But in terms of wheat, they

51:51

very often use Italian wheat,

51:54

which is always a good

51:56

sign. They do bronze extrusion,

51:58

which is. the

52:01

gold standard when it comes to extruding

52:03

pasta. Let me explain super quick what

52:05

bons extrusion is. When

52:07

making dry pasta, when shaping

52:09

dry pasta, the dough is

52:11

forced through some sort of

52:13

a mold, some sort

52:16

of a disk with a hole in the

52:18

center. That process is called extrusion. And

52:20

depending on the shape of the hole, you

52:22

imprint, you create a specific

52:25

pasta shape. So when

52:27

you do this, and you're an

52:29

industrial that only thinks about cost, you

52:32

use a Teflon die,

52:34

a Teflon mold, because it goes

52:36

faster. It's nonstick, so you're

52:39

able to spit out pasta, you know,

52:41

at light speed. However,

52:43

if you're an artisan pasta, and you also

52:45

care about the end texture of

52:48

pasta, you would rather use

52:51

a die that is made out of bons. So

52:54

the dough, when it's forced through that die,

52:57

is slowing down because of the friction

52:59

that is greater with a mold like this.

53:02

But it creates something amazing. It creates some sort

53:04

of a microscopic

53:07

accordion, a rough texture

53:10

on pasta. So the sauce clings to

53:13

it better? Exactly, exactly, that's amazing. And

53:15

the Chico use bons die, and

53:17

it makes for instant better pasta.

53:19

They also use low temperature, slow

53:22

drying, which is always a plus,

53:24

because they're able to preserve nutritional

53:27

value. Okay. Now,

53:29

if you really love pasta, another

53:32

option might be interesting. And I'm

53:34

thinking, depending on what's available in

53:36

the US, either RUMO, so R-U-M-M-O.

53:39

Never seen that. Then you've got La,

53:42

space, molisana. That's another one. Yeah,

53:44

I've seen that. Ah, okay, solid.

53:47

And the last one was Garo,

53:50

Salo. No, I

53:52

haven't seen that. So in a nutshell,

53:54

La molisana pasta is my favorite pasta,

53:56

at least. The one that I can

53:58

get in standout. So can

54:00

I stop you and ask you, let me ask you a

54:02

question. So you've talked about bronze

54:04

extrusion disc, I get that. But

54:07

the flour, for example, which I assume is

54:09

critical, do you want

54:11

a really high gluten flour?

54:13

Do you want, what

54:16

makes great flour for great pasta? So

54:19

first of all, the high pasta is

54:21

always made with semolina, so dolomite flour.

54:23

That's very high gluten. Yeah. Exactly.

54:26

For pasta, they are pretty much

54:28

standardized in terms of protein content.

54:31

However, you're very right on something.

54:33

What do you do if you can't spot the

54:35

choco or like la molisana? What if all the

54:38

names are foreign to you? Well, you can look

54:40

for bronze dye, as we mentioned earlier on. You

54:42

can look for a slow

54:45

drying, that's a very good sign.

54:47

And you can look for any

54:49

mention about the grain they use.

54:51

If they're proud to mention any

54:53

geographical indication, that's always

54:55

a good sign. And it could be the US for that

54:57

matter. If it's made in the US,

54:59

but they are proud of it and they mention

55:02

organic dolomite, I'm buying this. This is amazing. So

55:04

what does it mean? You

55:06

have now one brand to avoid, two

55:08

brands that you can favor and a few mentions that

55:10

you could be looking for on a package. Now, what

55:13

is it going to do in the end to

55:15

your pasta dishes at home? They're

55:17

going to be better. Instantly. You

55:20

buy the choco or you buy la molisana and

55:22

you make the same pasta that you make regularly.

55:25

With like a sauce that you wrap

55:27

up yourself, obviously, it's going to be better.

55:29

For many reasons, the sauce is going to

55:31

cling better. The sauce is going

55:33

to thicken nicer because the

55:36

pasta starch is going to be more

55:38

present. I've been doing this with a

55:40

blindfold on. And after loads

55:43

and loads of tasting, I was able

55:46

to taste that dolomite flavor

55:48

and that texture that is

55:51

a little more alive on very good pasta.

55:53

So have you sent a case of the

55:55

good stuff to your mother yet? I mean,

55:57

did you have the conversation? What's my mom?

56:00

ruined childhood with burrula. That's what I want

56:02

to know. We've got plenty subject to discuss

56:04

before this one. This is not top of

56:06

mind. I do have one final question

56:11

before we go. In this country, everyone

56:13

got on to the term al dente years

56:16

ago, which I find a

56:18

lot of things annoying. But a

56:20

lot of people just undercooked their

56:22

pasta because they say that's al

56:24

dente. Could you just describe what

56:26

al dente means to you? Al

56:29

dente is supposed to be just some

56:31

sort of a firm texture. You are very

56:33

right. I think people are using and abusing

56:35

that term. I've eaten

56:38

pasta made by friends

56:41

but acquaintance I would call them. And

56:44

when it gets stuck in

56:46

your back molar, that's

56:48

the sign that you're below al dente. I've been

56:50

to an Italian restaurant in New York where it

56:53

was half cooked. The pasta has

56:58

a different taste to it and it's

57:00

not enjoyable. I mean I've been cooking

57:02

with Italian chef in Italian kitchens in

57:04

Rome and I was tempted to

57:06

get the pasta out of the bath thinking I

57:08

need to make them really al dente otherwise I'm

57:10

gonna get punished. And the guy just placed

57:13

them back in the pan and said what are

57:15

you doing? We still want fully cooked pasta. And

57:18

I was like al dente is one

57:20

thing. It just means we should be

57:22

going for a little firmer than the

57:24

old soft versions of maybe our moms.

57:27

But yeah, the molar stuck situation

57:29

it's out. Well I can say

57:31

two things. I agree with you

57:34

about the difference between good and

57:36

poor pasta and al dente and

57:38

I hope you can reconcile with your mother. I will.

57:43

Alex, thank you. Thank you. That

57:49

was Alex I know host of Just a

57:51

French Guy Cooking on YouTube. That's

57:57

it for this week's show. Please don't forget you can

57:59

find me. more than 250 episodes of

58:01

Milk Street Radio on

58:03

our website, milkstreetradio.com or wherever

58:05

you get your podcasts. You

58:08

can learn more about Milk Street at 177milkstreet.com. There

58:13

you can become a member and get thousands of recipes,

58:16

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58:18

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58:20

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58:22

also learn about our latest book, Milk

58:24

Street 365, the all-purpose cookbook for every

58:26

day of the year. Please

58:29

check us out on Facebook at Christopher Kimball's

58:31

Milk Street on Instagram at 177milkstreet.

58:35

We'll be back next week and thanks as always

58:37

for listening. We

58:59

see a producer, Caroline Davis, with production help

59:01

from Debbie Paddock. Additional

59:03

editing by Sydney Lewis. Audio

59:05

mixing by Jay Allison at Atlantic Public

59:07

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