0:02

If the economy continues to hold up no matter what happens on the fed. I think we've got a good strong economy. We've got very strong domestic demand.

0:11

Consumers are holding up some low income consumers,

0:16

or perhaps exhausting their buffers

0:19

of saving that they build up during the pandemic.

0:22

We're seeing a little bit more distress

0:25

at the household level there. But, generally,

0:29

households are in very good financial shape shape. You're still confident we can get to 2% this year? We've seen a little bit of a flare up so far this year. Well, I think it will continue to come down over time. That's my expectation. And,

0:43

you know, I'm I'm hopeful that we we can certainly get into the twos.

0:48

I think we can feel great about our economy.

0:51

Was gonna ask you what you mean up to the last jobs report. Well, it just shows that US is firing on all cylinders.

1:30

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another Citadel Dispatch, the interactive

1:38

live show focused on Bitcoin and Freedom Tech. That intro clip was US Treasury secretary

1:45

Janet Yellen letting us know that inflation is under control, everything is fine,

1:51

and the US has never been stronger. I have a great, great group of guests here today to talk immunity wallet. We have the entire founding team of mutiny,

2:02

all return guests, all ride or die freaks.

2:07

For the podcast listeners at home, why don't we go through the horn?

2:11

Tony, welcome back.

2:14

What's up, guys? What's up to you, Aaron, as always?

2:17

We got Paul here as well. How's it going, Paul?

2:20

Hello.

2:21

Thank you for having me.

2:23

Hello hello to you as well.

2:25

And, we have Ben, Ben the Carmen. How's it going, Ben?

2:29

Yo. Yo. Good to be back.

2:31

And as always, we have the rider die freaks in the live Nostra chat. You do not have to have Nostra to use it.

2:38

It allows you to create an account on the fly in the browser.

2:42

You can join that chat by going to sitoldispatch.com/stream.

2:47

So, guys, immunity wallet. You guys just had a big update.

2:51

I think the freaks this might be our 3rd or 4th conversation on mutiny wallet through the years on dispatch. So the freaks are probably pretty familiar,

2:59

with Mutiny, but it's come a long way.

3:03

Where where do we get started? What why why should someone care about Mutiny? Why should someone consider using it?

3:11

Yeah.

3:12

We we it's it's kind of long

3:15

it's only been, like, a year so far. It's kind of awesome to to see, but, yeah, we started Mutiny Wallet to kind of start building a lightning wallet in what we think is, like, the right way,

3:25

and have that privacy focus built in. We built it for the web first. So even if we're a deplatformed by Google or Apple,

3:33

there's always that web fallback. You can self host it,

3:36

you know, connect to different lightning nodes. Like, we wanted to make it as, like, self sovereign capable as possible, but still, like, as easy as possible for someone to get started with. And and building on the web was a huge part of it where,

3:49

you know, if you you don't have to download an app even to get started. You just, like, go to muti wallet dot com, and then you have a lightning wallet ready to go. So those were, like, kind of the big motivations behind it, kind of what our selling point is, like, trying to build in that accessibility

4:04

and build in, you know, what we think is, like, the right way to build a wallet, basically. So, yeah, we've we've had

4:11

quite a few updates over the last few months. I think the big one is, like, our social

4:17

features and the social integration to kinda make it like a Venmo,

4:21

but, like, built on top of Nasr and and on top of Bitcoin and Lightning.

4:25

But then, like, our big one yesterday was Lightning addresses. So now

4:30

for we're rolling it out slowly, so we're starting with Unity Plus users first, for people that subscribe.

4:36

But, yeah, we're starting to roll out Lightning addresses based on Fannie Mae.

4:41

So, yeah, I'm I'm happy to dive into, like, any specific points, but, like, our social stuff, our, like, lightning address stuff, federation stuff, like, these have been huge updates over the last, like, you know, really few weeks, really.

4:54

Yes. I mean, let's, I guess, let's pull it back.

4:57

Originally, when mutiny first launched, it was,

5:00

you know, the it was browser only. This idea that you could just open

5:05

a fresh wallet, a full lightning node,

5:08

in in your in your phone browser. It didn't matter if you had an old Android phone that didn't have the App Store

5:15

or if Apple, you know, decided that they didn't want any Bitcoin while it's on the App Store.

5:19

You could just load it up directly in the browser. You could load it up on a desktop computer. Pretty much anything that had a browser, you could just load it up, which is really fucking awesome, and you still can do that.

5:30

Since then, you guys have actually launched native apps. You wanna talk really quick about

5:34

why native apps? Why why do if you can just do it in the browser, why do we have App Store apps available in both Android and iPhone?

5:44

Do you like, native apps are kind of just, like,

5:47

better? Like, if you can go through the the compliance of apple and Google, like they're more secure and more performant. They get all these like, nice like features, like, you know, with apple, you can't use like NFC

5:59

without an app and stuff like that. So it's kind of like, you know, the, we always want to support the web. Like that's, you know, it's like, where we were started with, But, like, if you can use the app, you should just because it's got all these benefits that the, you know, the phone OS is give you. But,

6:16

you know, the the the the way we built it, it's like it can easily

6:21

go between, like, native app and, web. So it shouldn't be a huge problem if, like, Apple rug pulled us tomorrow. Just type in your 12 words into the into the web, and you're, you know, you're back in action.

6:33

Badass.

6:36

So you guys just added sediment support. Why'd you do that?

6:43

Self custodial lightning,

6:44

it we do as much as possible to to

6:47

smooth over as many restrictions with, like, channels and and a lot of friction there.

6:52

I think Phoenix, like, absolutely does it the best as far as, like, Lightning channel and, like, you know, trying to extract liquidity or sorry, the yeah. The aspects of liquidity balancing and things like that into the picture.

7:04

But it's still too much

7:08

of like, if you wanna use Mutiny Wallet today as, like, a brand new user,

7:12

you pretty much you have to open a channel. And to open a channel requires, like, on chain fees

7:18

to start receiving and then on chain fees, like, you know, for for sending as well. So, you know, if someone wanted to start with Muni today, we're talking, you know, when the when the chain fees are really high, we're talking, like, a $50 investment

7:31

to to try out a new application. And and that's not usually, like, how it works. That's not how you, you know, reach people.

7:40

I think I think with FEDIMENT, the whole idea around it is that we can

7:45

sort of, like, abstract a lot of the same functionality, like sending and receiving over Lightning.

7:51

That's, like, what users are trying to do. Right? Like, they're not trying to manage channels. They're not trying to worry about all those things.

7:58

They just wanna send and receive and and to just try out the wallet

8:02

for, like, a few 1,000 sats. Like, we have some people that just load up with a 1,000 sats now just to try it out, and they're like, holy shit. Like, this is awesome. I love being able to zap someone, like, a few sats all the time.

8:15

It just, like, smooths it over. And so it's all about, like, removing the friction,

8:20

but still having self custodial channels in there. So if you have if you have a bunch of sats on the federation,

8:26

you can just, you know, sweep it into a lightning channel. You can do a swap, and it opens a lightning channel to you to the same phone.

8:35

You know, you'll pay the on chain fees for it, and the channel fees. But once you do that, you have the same lot, the same user experience. It's just, like, now you have more SaaS that are on self custodial

8:47

versus, like, what's on the federation. Could we because with the federation, like, yes, there's still, like, more members, but you still kinda have to, like, you know, trust

8:55

those members to run the Fendi Mint network properly and to, like, not rug pull and things like that.

9:01

So you do want to like, if you start getting bigger stats, like, like, put it in the self custodial. But just the aspect that people can just try out for a little bit is is huge for removing friction, getting more users, getting feedback,

9:15

and things of that nature. So that like, I've been I've been working on it for, like, 6 months now. Thought it would be a lot quicker than that integration, but, it's been it's been awesome working with the with the Federman team and and seeing how far that's progressed

9:30

over the last 6 months. So, like, huge shout out to all of them for working on it and and doing what they do.

9:37

It it really solves so many problems for us. Like, you know, like Tony said, that that minimum $50 is not in fees. It's, you know, the minimum channel size that we have set is a 100,000 sats, and that's not just some us being mean. Like, it's just silly to make a lightning channel smaller than a 100,000 sats. And, you know, once upon a time, that was $20.

9:56

Right now that's, like, almost $70. And if you think of it, you know, we we're we're we're

10:02

comparing ourselves to, like, you know, a Cash App and Venmo, those sort of social payment apps.

10:07

And how did they get users? They paid people $5

10:12

to use the to use their app. So

10:16

we're we're saying, Hey, come use our app, the start with $70

10:21

and then you can see what it's like. So Fedimint gives us that like,

10:26

you know, cold start start with a 100 sats, you know, especially if you, you know, if you're most people's, like, day to day usage of of lightning right now seems to be on noster.

10:36

And so, you know, if you wanna be, you know, sending, receiving small amounts, and and that's fun to you,

10:42

you know, investing $70 to do that

10:47

might just be a nonstarter. But if you can just join Infediment and get started, that's great. And the other, you know, the other huge motivation for us that made it so obvious

10:56

to move in the InfiniBand direction is this offline receive

10:59

Lightning address. You know, async payments are not a thing yet in

11:05

in Lightning. And even once they are,

11:07

it's not like a slam dunk, you know, fix everything kind of solution.

11:12

Do you know a traditional lightning payment,

11:15

both nodes do need to be online for it to go through.

11:18

And so when you have a mobile wallet, the whole point of it is that the node runs on the device, and therefore, it can't just be on all the time. So to receive offline,

11:28

having this, you know, even if you're just using the Fedimint as a proxy,

11:32

you know, so funds flow into there,

11:35

now to your lightning address. And then when you come online, you can sweep them, you know, to yourself custodial if you want to. It's it's just a huge huge win for for UX.

11:48

I love the idea of this mix of self custody lightning plus Fedimint.

11:55

I think you guys are the first ones to kind of try out this model regardless of even charming e cash.

12:01

This idea of a custodial and a self custody

12:05

mixed together, It's it's an interesting trade off balance. It's a compelling trade off balance. So, I mean, to unpack this a little bit for the freaks,

12:16

we had Cali on dispatch a couple weeks ago talking about KashU, which is single sig, Chaumu, and e cash.

12:23

We had Phoenix. We had Pierre, the CEO of Phoenix Wallet

12:28

on last week, to talk about self custody lightning on mobile and how they do it.

12:34

This is kind of like a combination of the 2,

12:37

with the with the added benefit that the idea of Fedimans is that instead of you having a single sig custodian, a single sig, Charming, eCashmint,

12:47

you have a multi sig. So it requires

12:49

multiple people in, the quorum to come together to to steal the money or to make a mistake,

12:57

that loses the money. So, I mean,

13:01

I I guess, like, one of the big things with with choosing a Fedimint, a Fedimint, you don't have to trust

13:08

the Mint operators with your privacy because you use Charming eCash, so you're not giving up any privacy there.

13:15

And I know that was, like, a major goal, especially early days immunity wallet. I mean, I remember still dispatch 21 with Tony.

13:22

We spent, like, 2 and a half hours talking about all the different privacy trade offs of of trying to use Lightning privately.

13:28

And the dream is to have a wallet that kinda just automates all of that for people or automates as much of the best practices as possible.

13:36

But you do have to trust them in terms of actually maintaining,

13:41

the maintaining the mint and

13:45

not being malicious. And so there's this whole I you know, it's like, who do you choose as your Fediment? And I you guys have implemented this kind of web of trust system. You wanna talk about that a little bit?

13:58

Yeah. I mean so, like, we've been kinda going all in on these, like, nostril features with, like, the social feed and all that stuff. But,

14:05

we're like, well, we already have this nostril stuff in, like, why don't we just use nostril's discoverability layer for Freddieman? So,

14:12

I made a net for it, and basically, it's just like there's 2 sides of it. One side, like, federations or Freddieman announce themselves from the Austin and say, like, hi. I'm a Mint. Here's my name. Here's, like, the invite codes to join me. This is, like, the different modules we support,

14:27

all that stuff. And then on the other side, the users can join that federation from that announcement. And then they can also, like, create a recommendation event saying, like, hey, this mint is great. I recommend it. And then so in Vienni,

14:40

when you go to add a federation, you just have a list of all these announcements of people that have made and saying like, oh, cool. Odell recommended this sediment, and I can see that, like, only he recommended it, but all the other people that I follow recommended as well. So we can just kind of, like, sort those by, like, you know, who's

14:55

recommending the most federations and stuff. And,

14:58

it makes it, like, a lot nicer because we we had Freddie Mac support in the app for about, like, I don't know, maybe, like, 4 months now. But for the longest time, everyone's just, like, how do I get a Fed invite code? I wanna join a federation, but like

15:11

no one knew how to find these invite codes. Like sometimes people would tweet them out on Twitter and stuff. That was about it. So now it's like, okay, it's just native in the app. You never need to, you know, go to an alternate platform to find, like, an invite code. It's just all in the app, and you can, you know, whoever you trust,

15:27

you can see, like, who they're also trusting.

15:30

It's a basic, like, distributed, censorship resistant trust pilot.

15:35

I I do wanna make it clear, like, this we're definitely early on this, like, web of trust. A lot of people have been talking about web web of trust

15:43

stuff, and and this is a big you know, we were just in Madeira for a couple months

15:47

and with a lot of Net Nostra devs and Bitcoin devs, and,

15:52

you know, Web of Trust was a big theme. And so, like, right now in the wall, we list federations. We show we have some heuristics for not just showing every rando

16:03

whoever, you know, clicked recommend. You know? I mean, on Nostra, it's obviously very cheap to set up a new identity. So, you know,

16:11

but but I could have, like, a 1,000 end pubs just immediately. And so that ultimately should result in, you know, basically

16:18

no signal. But, you know, what what what is actually

16:22

what is actually interesting? Okay. Who

16:26

do I follow these people? You know? Do I have a bunch of mutual follows with with these people?

16:32

You know, have they I don't know.

16:36

Showing more metadata about the the, the federation itself. You know? Like, are any of the members of the federation public? So I could see, you know, do I trust them? Do I follow them?

16:46

Those those sorts of the you know, how long has this been around? You know?

16:50

There's lots of I think we can get a lot more richer, you know, not trying to make it intimidating, but for people who are ready to

16:59

vet more deeply what Federation they're gonna trust, I hope that we can, you know, provide,

17:05

some something's a little bit more rich there. But right now, this is just kind of the the first pass on, hey. You can see some faces, and if you recognize them, it's it's a better way to

17:15

to choose choose a myth. Yeah. I think I think with WebTrust, the key idea is, like, going into,

17:23

the specifics of what it is you are trusting people. So it's like, just because I follow,

17:28

you know, a few hundred people, I don't trust them for, like, everything that we try to apply WebTrust properties to.

17:35

The the the NIP I forget the NIP it is, but but, like, this whole WebTrust

17:41

Federation and Mint Discovery thing, the reason why I like it so much is because it's, like, single purpose, this one specific thing. It's like I can recommend a Mint.

17:50

I can have friends that recommend a Mint. And if people are following me, they can kinda judge for themselves.

17:56

I trust this person for recommending Mintz or, you know, whether or not you do that.

18:02

That's kind of up to you. Like, we can make it transparent.

18:05

There's other things I might trust certain people for, but then there's also, you know, people I might not want to take recommendations

18:11

for Mints. So just the ID like, there's bitcoinminced.com,

18:16

made by Bob and and the Prism team, and, like, we kind of worked alongside them on the spec for this. And so, like, they were building, like, a dedicated website for,

18:26

e, all e Cash Mints. So there's Cashew and Fennymint, and they support them both, and you can recommend you can list Mints on there. You can recommend Mints.

18:34

And then meanwhile, alongside it, we were building

18:37

this into immunity wallets specifically for Fedimint. We don't have we don't have cash to support in our wallet. We're kind of just going the Fedimint direction instead.

18:46

But we can still pull in the same federation events that happen on Bitcoin Mints and vice versa. So,

18:53

you know, from from that perspective alone, I think I think it's huge. Like, this is where, like, Nasser wins. Right? Like, Ben has a famous note on Nasser that's just like, you know, Nasser doesn't have a discovery problem. It is the discovery solution.

19:06

And I think there's so much truth to that.

19:10

Yeah. Like, I think, like,

19:12

you know, there is the problem of, like, there can be a 1,000,000 fake Odell's, but, like, once you find the real Odell, like, discoverability,

19:18

like, can work so well. Because now I can find everything that the real Odell likes and he interacts with, like, super easily. It's just, like, a super simple query to anything.

19:27

And, so yeah. Like, you know, once you have that, like, in meeting, you were kind of assuming you have a good follow list and you can find the people you trust. Once you have that, like, it's so easy to discover people to, like, pay them. And so you discover, like, zaps. So you need to discover funny mints as long as you can, like, bootstrap that initial list of friends.

19:49

I I think there's something worth discussion. So Duck just posted a comment I'd like to answer.

19:54

Does web of trust cause centralization? And and there's some truth to that. You know? Like, we we debated, you know, some of this mint

20:04

discovery stuff ourselves or, like, you know, running a mint and being, like, one of the only mints there. Like, is it too early

20:12

for this kind of solution? Like like, I mean, one of the reasons I like the fact that we didn't have something like this in our wallet

20:20

is just because it's like it's too it's too it was too early for, like, recommending mints to people. You you might be able to say it still is, but, you know,

20:28

let the market figure it out now. At this point, the cat's out of the bag.

20:31

But it just kinda like I I wanted to wait a little bit so we can kind of let mints kind of pop up. And it was almost perfect timing when the free Madeira Mint launched. That was, like, the same week

20:43

that Bitcoin Mints launched, and we were, like, 1 or 2 weeks away from launching our Mint discovery. So it's like there's enough trends go going in the right direction of it. But, yeah, I mean, you could say there's some centralization

20:54

caused by, everyone just joining the one mint. I still think there's a lot of opportunity for many Mints to spin

21:04

up. But on the reverse side of that, kinda like what Paul said, like and and me a little bit too where, you know, let's say there is a community of people where, you know, they are on Noster. Let's,

21:13

like like, let's say, a community in Madeira. Right? Right? Like, this is a perfect example. Let's say Madeira wasn't the first to launch. Let's say they launched,

21:20

you know, after it's already, like, a 100 minutes. Well, the people in Madeira, they might be following each other on Oster, and they might, like, spin up a mint.

21:28

And they might be mostly concentrated in Madeira, and all of a sudden, what you have is, like, Madeira people recommending the Madeira mint and not the other ones. So you just naturally, we can bubble up in the UI the Madeira Mint for the people that are following a bunch of Madeira people. So, like, in a way, there is some centralization cause, but not in the other way. Like, you could say it's like, how else would you cause decentralization?

21:53

Like like, this is this is kind of if you naturally start having your own communities

21:59

in a decentralized way, you kind of naturally can kinda create solutions that kinda fit for them and not just like, we don't just recommend,

22:07

like, the biggest mint to you in the UI. Like, we recommend the one that has the most amount of your followers,

22:14

the people you're following, recommending that meant. So we could kind of, like, do some smart UI stuff to kind of incentivize people to use the one that might be the best suited for them because the people around them have said it was best suited

22:30

for them. So I think I think it's an interesting aspect like centralization versus decentralization. Like, I think having something like this otherwise, you just you just everyone how else do you discover mints? You just eventually, a big one will pop up, and that's the only one people will know, and there will be no discovery layer for any other mints to pop up. And then everyone just uses the big one. And the prime example of this is like FTX.

22:51

Right? Like, you know, a big a big exchange pops up. They're doing marketing. They're, you know, doing all this stuff, and everyone just uses that single one.

22:59

But, you know, we can sort of, like, distribute that a little bit. Yeah. I think another example is, like, liquid. It's like, in theory, anyone can spin up a liquid network, but there's only one just because

23:11

there's been that one existing for years, and there's no real, like, easy way to find other liquid networks. There's no, like, real incentive to set up another one, which is, like, with Fedimint, they kind of, like, totally fix that of, like, they're meant to be a lot smaller and more agile and, you know, all this stuff. And My understanding is the HSMs aren't false, and so you can't actually have computing. Like,

23:33

it's not permissionless to create a computing liquid network. I think you you could create one that's just like, you know, you're not using

23:39

the they're fancy. It's just them, so it's not as secure. Like, you could have your laptop sign that blocks.

23:44

But,

23:45

But anyway, the point remains. I mean, you have to think about, like, what is what is the alternative. Right? Yeah.

23:51

And up until this point, the alternative has been

23:55

you know, you download while the satoshi, so you use their custodian. And and while the satoshi is incredibly successful, then everyone uses the same custodian.

24:05

While this seems like a clear net benefit, that mutiny is not, like, loading you up and and choosing who your Mint is.

24:11

You get to the user gets to choose.

24:15

Yeah. Imagine imagine if you had something like the Wazatoshi UI, but now it allows you to pick your,

24:22

you know, kind of, like, risk vector and and everything. Like, you get to decide what to do. So right right now,

24:27

like, you know, kudos to Wawa Satoshi. Like, they made something that seems intuitive to people and, like, they like and enjoy the app, things like that. But they're sort of decentralized

24:37

provider, so it's like you get you you use their wallet, then you have to use their infrastructure.

24:42

Meanwhile, with something like us, it's like you use our wallet, but you can pick anyone's federated infrastructure to use that's backing it. So you can kind of kind of decide for yourself what to do, and that that makes it more adaptable for us. Like, we we don't have to run the the the Fedimint infrastructure,

24:58

like and then at the same time, you know, if you like the you know, you want experience, you're not tied to just, like, us in our back end. So there's a lot of benefits

25:08

by, you know I mean, that's the, like, the benefits and also, right, like, plug plugging into the open network. Like, Fedimint

25:13

is also another open network. It's just an open network for for ecash tokens.

25:20

Satoshi, like, become like a protocol versus, like, an app where, you know, they can have that same kind of experience. But

25:27

now instead of, you know, if they get a letter from the the government to shut down the America,

25:32

the whole app's gone in America versus now, it's like, oh, just that federation is gone in America. We could just I could just hop over to another one. It's the same app and everything because it's a protocol, not just a

25:42

proprietary thing. You could even make it one button.

25:45

Exactly.

25:46

It's like, okay. Time to migrate. Click the migrate button. Yeah. Speaking of, someone had a question. You know, how do users get of a Mint get notified if a Mint is shutting down?

25:58

You guys gonna offer this?

26:01

Only if you're a subscriber?

26:03

Yeah.

26:04

Plus users.

26:05

Probably notification as a paid subscriber service.

26:09

Yeah. Like, I know all the men, so I'll just, like, hand tell people now.

26:15

It's it's an interesting question. I I don't know. This?

26:20

Yeah. You can have you can have, like if the Mints there there is a mod so, like, the cool thing about Fannie Mae is, like, it's more than just eCash, Bitcoin, and Lightning.

26:29

They're building this sort of OS layer.

26:33

I think like how Feddy and and Obi would put it. Like like, it can do so much more than that, like, on a federated level. It's I think he had one point at one point said it was like a federated OS. You could have things like password managers in in there. You can think have things like social

26:47

recovery backups in there. Like, anything that, like,

26:51

involves, like, key, like, key signing or or things like that at all could go in there. Someone made a module that was, like, Nostra specific where, like

26:59

because it uses, like, the same cryptography that Nostra uses,

27:04

you can have something where, like, each of the guardians

27:08

have one key of a Noster master key.

27:12

And if they all agree to to publish something, it gets published or not all. If a majority agree to publish something, it gets published. So you could have something where it just says, like like, just announcements or updates in general

27:23

would be useful to to bubble up and, like, to pass on to the users. So I think I think historically,

27:30

Fedimint has started integrating, a chat protocol, like a different chat protocol into their wallet. I forget the name of it. They're using matrix

27:40

now.

27:41

They're using matrix now? Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So they're experimenting with different chat protocols. I I think something to Oster makes the most sense because that's, like that's an easy way to split up the keys to different guardians.

27:54

It naturally supports it. You you don't have to have the guardians run the relay. They can just take advantage of every other relay that runs and blast the message to all them.

28:03

So I think something like, I would love to see more

28:06

more mint like noster nips

28:11

come in the time to come. But this is like Paul said, this is all super early bleeding edge stuff. Like Yep. Like, the the mint

28:18

spec to just announce the mint, you know, was just created a few weeks ago and was just, like, implemented by 2 people. Right? So it's it's just all still early and but, like, these are kind of the right questions that we need to answer. How do we know MN's gonna shut down? How do we know, you know, how to inform the user? I've been a big proponent of, like, having

28:37

expiration dates on Mints just to kind of get it out there. Like, hey. This this mint's not gonna be around forever. Here's, like, an expiration date for the mint. Like, the Fennymint protocol has support for

28:49

announcing the expiration date right at the front. So you can kinda just say, like, hey. Your your sets aren't gonna be here forever. We we promise to run this meant all collectively until this date, and then from there, we're not sure. Like, get your sats off before the state hits,

29:06

because, like, it's still too early. Like, if if Guardian spin up today, the problem is, oh, well, now I have to support the software forever

29:15

because you have forever liabilities, of Bitcoin. And I think with the expiration date, it almost treats it like a Visa gift card where it's like, this is this is good for this functionality

29:26

up until this date. And then from there, you know, I make no guarantees.

29:29

And I think that's all you can kinda say at this early stage of. It's just people just, you know, running it and kinda seeing how they like it. Well, let's talk about well, I mean, while we're on that topic, let's talk about the pain points of FetaMed right now.

29:44

Oh, there's none. It's great.

29:47

I think

29:48

there's always something, like the fact that it's so new makes it hard. Like, there's, like I think like in the main net, like we can discover like 3 federations

29:56

and like we've had like some issues where it's like, oh, the gateways aren't working or like, oh, the fees are high or too low to actually make payments. Like a lot of this stuff it's like, you know, payments had been on main net for like 2 months at most. So it's like, they haven't run into all those kind of, like, you know, on test net, there's no fees. There's no,

30:16

like, high uptime requirements. It's just like it just kinda you spin it up, it works, and you, you know, then you merge the pull request versus, like, main net. You need to, like, test that it works for, like, you know, 6 months straight with the no downtime and the fees don't come into account and break things and stuff like that. So that makes it a lot harder. So I imagine they're gonna run into, like, lots of different little things there. But, I mean, for the most part, it's been it's been great.

30:41

Yeah. It's very much bleeding edge. Yeah. What what one of the one of those one of the issues with with, FEDIMA right now, and I know that they're trying to find a a good solution for this, is let's say you have a have a mint going and there's, like, you know, 5 members,

30:55

and one of them decides that they don't wanna be a part of anymore.

31:00

It'd be nice to be able to just say, okay, so the other 4 are going to nominate a new person to replace that and they'll like swap them out somehow.

31:09

There isn't some graceful, like swap out,

31:12

mechanism.

31:13

So what happens now? You have to get them into a new one?

31:17

So, yeah, you right now, the way to solve that would be to start a new federation

31:21

and then move move everybody over. It's not not not a cool I mean, I'm sure we could, like, build stuff on top of that to try to, like, kinda smooth over that.

31:30

Like, even if I mean, it could be like someone gets hit by a bus. Right? It's like

31:35

Oh, yeah. There's buses everywhere.

31:37

Yeah. Too many buses. Yeah. It's like a really hard problem. Like,

31:41

just doing the negotiation of, like, you know, seamlessly switching out that member is hard. But then it's like, okay, now, like, say it's like a 3 or 4 federation. And well, it's like, now that 4th member, their key is still on the multisig of the the Bitcoin on chain. So it's like, we need to, like, move that Bitcoin from, like, one address to another. Someone needs to pay those fees. And it's like, okay, if we just pay the fees from the Bitcoin,

32:04

well, now our federation is, you know, it's it's now, like, doesn't have all the Bitcoin net for e cash. It's like a minor it's fractional reserve.

32:13

So now it's like, okay. We need to, like, figure out a way to, you know, someone pay those fees or figure out a way to actually negotiate that. Like, in theory, you can do it, with, like, Frost and Musig and all that stuff to, like, not have to move the Bitcoin, but, like, that is

32:28

a long ways away from now. So, like, it's it's all of these, like, hard problems to figure out that,

32:33

you know, need fancy cryptographers or something.

32:37

So we have this comment from n pub 15lmjackx

32:42

saying, by the way, if you set a username, we'll we we'll have usernames

32:48

in the chat. Quartic.

32:49

It's showing up on Amethyst. It's Cortic. Okay.

32:53

I guess

32:54

it's a big relay versus small relay debate all over again. But, anyway,

32:58

Cortic is saying, fuck all that instead of building privacy spending tools on chain without deterministic links. This is wasting time on web of trust and, again, trusting some entity.

33:08

I trust no mint or federation. Fuck that word salads to lure more idiots to it. Mints are not part of Bitcoin. When you deposit Bitcoin into a mint, it's not Bitcoin anymore. The Bitcoin provenance is gone. When you convert Bitcoin to liquid, it's not Bitcoin, but a private chain controlled by Blockstream notes.

33:22

Tony, I mean, you wrote a fantastic piece about this. You wanna just chat real quick on this? Because, I mean, this is I think this is incredibly important,

33:32

aspect to for for potential users to keep in mind.

33:36

Yeah. No. This is something different. Yeah. This isn't Bitcoin. It's not Bitcoin anymore. A 100%. I agree. I think people

33:44

come in with with those attitudes, and I think the like, I think they would know or, like, if if they would know, like, I would agree with with almost all of it. It's not Bitcoin. It's a different network.

33:55

It's not a network where a single person controls it, and I think that's the beauty of Fedimint.

34:01

You could you could say it's still custodial,

34:04

but, technically, legally speaking, it's noncustodial

34:07

because there's not unilateral control of the funds by any single party. And that's and that's honestly, like, the biggest aspect. That's, like, the biggest

34:16

that's the biggest appealing thing to me. Like, you could yes. There are a lot of people, a lot of Bitcoiners that, like, are don't trust anything in the world, except, of course, the fact that they can't audit the Bitcoin and their the Bitcoin code and their trust and other people do. That's besides the fact. But, yeah, there's a lot of people that say they don't trust anything else in the world,

34:35

and then they they can use Bitcoin as is and just fine. But the reality of the situation is is, you know, Paul has talked a lot about trust as a scaling solution. Like, you have to trust some things, and and there's gonna be people that trust different things based on different aspects. Federman is the best privacy tool that could possibly exist.

34:53

Ecache is itself. So from a privacy perspective,

34:56

it's fantastic. And if you were to ask me how I would, like, want like, basically, use use Fedimint for whatever risk model you have. If that risk model is 0, then don't use it at all. If that risk model is, like, up to up to a 1000000 sats because you like the benefits that it provides as as an alternative to Bitcoin. It can do things that Bitcoin can't we can't do on Bitcoin on chain today.

35:21

And so if you wanna take advantage of those things, if you wanna take advantage of the privacy aspect,

35:26

use it for as much amount as you're willing willing to possibly you lose on it.

35:31

But, yeah, I mean, I agree. Fedimint is its own network.

35:35

You don't have a claim on the bit you you might think you have a claim on the Bitcoin, but you're swapping Bitcoin for for eCash on a different on a different network.

35:45

And you should kind of, like, come in with that come in with that idea.

35:49

Would you We we call it ESATs in our wallet just to kind of try to make the distinction that, like, this isn't this isn't Bitcoin. This is, like, e cash based Satoshis.

36:00

But, you know, I'm I'm always trying to think of we haven't bubbled it up to the user interface right now, but, like, I would encourage people to go read tonygeorgio.com/freditmint,

36:10

because, you know, I I try to express these ideas, and I would like to bubble up some of those to the UI at some point.

36:16

Would you agree with the statement that if you're using a Fediment, you're converting your Bitcoin into a Bitcoin peg shit

36:23

coin?

36:27

Yeah.

36:28

Yeah. I like thinking of it that way.

36:31

I I think something important to note here is, like, you know, Bitcoin in its current form, like,

36:37

absolutely will not scale for everyone to be self custodial on chain. Like, you know,

36:42

if like, I think Paul did this math and they're like kinda open to me. It's like, we were talking earlier, like a 100 k sats for a lightning channel. It's like, if every single person on planet earth opened a 100 k lightning sat channel,

36:54

that would be half of all Bitcoin,

36:57

basically, which is like, you know, the it's too late for this for everyone to get all that. So like,

37:03

we're not gonna be able to scale on chain, or even lightning to, like, every single person. So unless we get some, like, super fancy softworks enable lots of other things,

37:12

but even it's kind of the only solution right now that's, like, gonna be able to, like, have people use Bitcoin without, like, going into something like a Coinbase.

37:20

And, so like this is yeah. Or an ETF. But, like, you know, ETFs don't allow payments and, you know, you can't zap someone from ETF. And they also hold their Bitcoin on Coinbase.

37:29

Exactly. It's still it's just a layer on top of Coinbase.

37:32

So, Coinbase layer 2 solution.

37:35

Yeah. So like

37:38

in its core inform, it's like, you know, we we built a self hosted lightning wall and it was doing great, but it's like,

37:43

you know, we have like a, you know, few 1,000 users and we're running to scaling limits already. It's like, if we wanna scale to millions of users, like, if we wanna compete with Cash App and Venmo, we kinda need, you know, something else. Otherwise, we're not gonna be able we'll also be, you know, sitting around with our thumbs up our ass, like, you know, having the moral high ground, but never actually being able to, like, compete in the global scale. And, like, on a Bitcoin side, like and or waiting for a protocol change where it's you know, I think most winners

38:11

that are educated on the topic think we should be very slow with protocol changes, and then you should not assume any protocol change will happen anytime soon.

38:20

Yeah. Yeah. Such in one of the tires here. That is the it's available today.

38:24

You can use it today.

38:26

Yeah. And I'm more interested in things that we can use today. I'm more interested in things so that we can build today,

38:32

because I think there's a lot I think there's a lot of

38:36

still unexplored space and, like, we talk a lot about scaling issues, like, on chain.

38:43

There's there's still, like, social scaling issues. There's still, like, how do we get, like,

38:49

as many people just to use Bitcoin even on, like, Wallacetoshi. Like, I'm sure they have a bunch of users. Right? But it's not it's not a big part of the world, like, using them in the first place. So it's like, you know, I think I think there's still I mean, you know, there's the exchanges that are kind of the big bubble that everyone gets to just because that's really easy to push in fiat and buy Bitcoin and, like, that's all people do with it. When it comes to, like, spending and using Bitcoin,

39:16

and receiving Bitcoin, there's still a big unexplored spot in penetrating

39:20

the global market and to try and get people to do that more with or without, like, scaling issues that exist. So, like, the fact that we can do something like Fedimba today

39:29

and do things like this today to try to

39:33

get as many people using Bitcoin as possible or something

39:37

interoperable with Bitcoin, you know, feel like Bitcoin. Right? Like, I I think there's still a lot of wanna explore space into into making a really good app that appeals to people and gets them to wanna use it. We talk a lot about, like, covenants and other scaling solutions, right, that I'm on the perspective of, yeah, we should, like, take some time. I don't want to, like, hedge a business

39:58

on a fork of Bitcoin. We always see how badly that turns out.

40:03

And I think that's a bad I think that's bad for the network. I think that's bad for,

40:07

I think that's bad for a lot of reasons. But, yeah, I'm more interested in things we can do today, things that we can build today,

40:14

and how we can get

40:16

people using Bitcoin today. I think I think a lot of Bitcoiners are coming at this whole thing from kind of like a from

40:24

from a different perspective in that

40:27

if you've been in Bitcoin for a long time,

40:31

you you've probably made, you know,

40:33

Bitcoin transactions that cost you on the order of, like, you know, US pennies.

40:38

And, you you've

40:43

you, when you see a lightning wallet or something like that, you're like, oh, you know, I've, I I'm, I'm going to make moves a little bit of money out of my cold storage in, like, open up, you know, a big channel or something like that, so I can start playing around with or medium sized channel

40:57

so I can start playing around with, like, you're coming coming from this. I've been stacking for this, you know, long away future.

41:04

I'm staying humble. And, you know, I want Bitcoin to scale, and so I'm going to experiment things, but I'm coming from this, like, you know, this really beautiful,

41:14

almost perfect system of of of,

41:18

on chain Bitcoin. But for someone who is,

41:22

like, new to Bitcoin, showing up now

41:26

and, you know, sometimes that that, you know, you if your first Bitcoin transaction has, like, you know, like, $5

41:33

USD equivalent fees, And, you know, how are you how are you gonna how are you gonna get your first stats? And and so we're kind of, like, almost taking, like, hey. People like using things like Venmo

41:46

and, you know, Cash App, and how do we drive that in the direction

41:51

of the the cypherpunk and unruggable

41:55

ethos of Bitcoin? How do we

41:58

preserve as much of that that experience both in the cost

42:02

and just general aesthetic

42:06

of of those, you know, more popular consumer

42:10

spending apps because the, the, I love the cyberpunk stuff and the cyberpunk stuff got us here, but the cyberpunk stuff,

42:18

it never seems to go, you know, like it's this is classic problem with like a PGP.

42:24

You know, it was a great technical solution, but it never really went broad,

42:29

because people didn't really embed it into, you know, consumer tools.

42:34

So how do we bring as much as much as we can achieve

42:38

without leaving a lot of people behind

42:41

of this unruggable, unstoppable,

42:44

cyberpunk ethos. You guys keep talking about Cash App, Venmo.

42:49

I mean, I think the what I really wanna see is, like, I wanna see, like, the

42:54

the signal of payments, the signal app payments.

42:59

And, like, I and I bring that up deliberately. Right? Because you've brought up PGP and

43:04

the adoption issues that we've seen with PGP, and I I think signal has solved a lot of those issues

43:09

while giving pretty strong privacy guarantees and pretty good performance guarantees.

43:14

I think Signal right now is at about 400,000,000

43:17

users, which is much less than, like, a WhatsApp,

43:21

but still an incredible achievement. Like, that's

43:24

pretty amazing that they've hit that kind of numbers.

43:28

I I I think there's, like, there's, like, a line where depending on how motivated you are to achieve some outcome is how much pain you're willing to go

43:37

through to get that outcome. And signal

43:40

has done an amazing job of of vastly lowering.

43:44

You know, there's still a little bit of pain. Right? You know, I can't it if I send a single message to a phone number, does it show up as a blue text on their iPhone, you know?

43:54

So there's still you know, it's not but but it's, you know, meanwhile, like, you know, there's other a lot of other privacy chat apps that I've tried that

44:04

includes so much pain and suffering that unless you were app your number one priority in life was privacy, you're not gonna use them. So signal has really lowered that bar, and I think that's I think that's beautiful.

44:17

Like, signal, like, is

44:18

you have pretty strong privacy guarantees, but you also have sticker.

44:23

Now when you can send video I think they still have I think they still have stories. Does anybody ever No one uses stories. Has anybody ever posted a story on signal in all time?

44:33

They should have never. That was a choice at that time. But, anyway,

44:36

I digress.

44:38

Talking about Cash App coming to the to Munich.

44:41

Yeah. Don't ask.

44:43

We were we've been talking about Cash App, Venmo. We haven't really talked about

44:47

your social features. I mean, I

44:50

I kinda love this idea of mutiny as, like, the freedom Venmo.

44:55

You wanna talk about the social features? Why did you guys choose Noster to to integrate with

45:01

and how that all works in in practice for the end user?

45:05

Yeah. I think, you know, the Nostra stuff kinda got started because, we're we're playing around with,

45:12

Nostra Wallet Connect. So you could have a Nostra client,

45:16

and instead of having a built in wall in that Noster client, like a social media style, like Twitter,

45:22

style app, Instead of having a having a built

45:26

in wall in there, you could connect it to your Mutiny wallet. And so you're basically using Nostril Wallet Connect. It's it's almost kinda like entering your credit card information. Like, you're giving this thing,

45:37

this app, a a privilege to ask another app, in this case, Mutiny Wallet, to make payments.

45:44

And and on Nostr, those are Zaps.

45:48

And I think because

45:51

I, I, I don't know the percentage, but a vast number of the,

45:57

I would say a vast majority of the,

46:01

vault, number of payments. I don't know about an actual size of payments, but the

46:06

actual sats terms, but the number of payments on lightning

46:10

on Noster, pretty sure dwarfs any other usage

46:14

of lightning. And so it makes sense that as you know, a lightning wallet

46:18

with Noster wall connect, people were using it.

46:22

And so Noster just became this, this kind of,

46:27

natural, natural friend to us and in a big place where know, we were getting users.

46:33

And so the with the social redesign

46:36

was this idea of, I mean, I didn't have this term right in front, but this is what I'm, like, retconning everything as is,

46:44

it's it's a people oriented wallet.

46:47

I mean, it's something that I I've been kind of surprised to learn

46:51

trying to, you know, get better at UX stuff is that it turns out copying pasting

46:57

a string of text is a no go for a lot of people.

47:02

And, like, and it's it's very a sobering realization

47:05

because, you you know, like, I I I

47:09

my text editor, like, it automatically

47:13

puts a line that I delete into my clipboard. I probably, like, you know, copy and paste,

47:18

like, like, 5,000 times a day. Big copy paste guy. I'm huge into it. And so, you know, but so just kinda realizing, like, okay. This is this is what we're dealing with. And so the idea that you you when you want money, you create an invoice, and then you text that to somebody or email somebody, or you have to be in person with them and have them scan it or something like that.

47:41

A good a good example of this was in in Madeira,

47:45

and I'm I'm sure we've all given this example a 1000000 times, but somebody paid for a dinner,

47:51

with their credit card. It was like a group of, like, 10 Bitcoiners.

47:56

1 person paid, and then

47:59

everybody started calculating how much they owed them and then asking them, Hey, make me an invoice. Hey, make me an invoice. And it was just like, it was like,

48:07

it was a parallel parallelism problem. Like, there's one dude making invoices on the wall, the guy who's wants the money. And so he's gotta make the invoice,

48:17

let the guy scan it, and wait for it to go through. Oh, that didn't work. Try a different wall. You know? And so it's taking forever.

48:25

Meanwhile, having these new social features in there, I like searched him on Noster and zapped him the money and and I was done. I didn't have to scan anything. And so I it switched the thing from being this exchange of invoices

48:39

that people you know, I think that's complicated for people to even, you know, have a good conception of what that means

48:46

to, I'm gonna find the person,

48:49

and and I'm gonna send them money.

48:52

So that's that's that's the main thing with the the social redesign. And so how it works right now is is we have,

48:58

like, nostril search. We use,

49:02

we run our own instance of, like, the primal API,

49:05

which has, you know, some some heuristic for, like, you know, real what is a real person.

49:12

So it's not just gonna show absolutely random in pubs that are pretending to be Odell, hopefully.

49:18

And we so there's more web of trust stuff to do there as well.

49:22

And then In practice,

49:24

like, in practice, it's like I can just open Muni Wallet. I could type in Tony, and I could just send Tony a payment. He doesn't have to send me an invoice. He doesn't have to send anything.

49:34

Even better now, what I recommend

49:36

is that here here's how to get started with with Mutiny.

49:40

You download Mutiny and you,

49:43

you join a federation, and then you search up somebody

49:48

that you know on Noster, maybe it's Tony,

49:51

and you ask them for money.

49:53

Because you just start Oh, damn. So many people are gonna do that right now.

49:57

If you can send a PayPal pass through. Yeah. So so that that's one of the the newer things that we've added is,

50:04

because we added Nostra DMs. Just don't ask Marty for money. He won't zap you.

50:10

Because we added Nostra DMs,

50:13

and right now, this will only it'll only show up in their wall if if, they're following you,

50:19

but it shows up as a as a payment request in the app. I mean, this was something that we definitely wanted to replicate from, you know, Venmo Cash App is being able to request money from people.

50:30

And so, basically, all it is is it it is an invoice. We're just DM ing an invoice,

50:35

but Mutiny understands that and, and can render that as a payment request, or you can pull up the chat,

50:42

with that person and and and see it. So then that's the prompt. When you find somebody,

50:48

on Noster in in in mutiny search, it it pulls up a chat UI,

50:53

and it says, hey. This is your first message with this person. Try asking for money.

50:57

Can I submit an audible PR?

51:02

Are

51:03

are we are you creating issue, or are you submitting working code? It's an issue. I'm working code.

51:08

Sure.

51:09

Automatic reminders for payment requests.

51:13

You know, like, you have you have there's, like, some friends that, you know,

51:18

they owe you money, and they just they won't you know, it takes them weeks to pay you.

51:22

It'd be nice if just, like, every week, it just automatically, like, ping them. It's like, you still haven't paid Odell.

51:28

I like that.

51:29

Yeah. I I wanna be able to, like, set up an auto Zap where,

51:35

like I want to stream, you know, like I I've,

51:38

you're, you're, you're sad right now, and I wanna stream you sats to make you feel better.

51:43

So I'm gonna, you know, give you a 100 sats,

51:46

you know, every 10 minutes for, like, like, 12 hours or something like that.

51:51

It's just real nice and spammy behavior.

51:55

But, yeah, I don't know if, Is it best of us? Eventually,

51:58

the invoice will expire, so you would need to, like, somehow, like,

52:01

yeah, like, mark it somehow as like,

52:05

hey. This person really owes me money. I'm not just I'm not just goofing around here. So, yeah, keep asking them until they pay it or something. It's impediment. Can't you just create a new invoice

52:15

automatically on the fly?

52:19

Let's see. That's a bit of a Tony question. Yeah. You could just, like, pull it from their Lightning address.

52:25

So in theory, you could totally do that if, like we could, like, make a new standard of, like, this is a payment request, and then when the person tries to pay it, it just, like, pulls an invoice from their,

52:36

that person's lightning address and pays it. But, anyway, I would say, like, I fucking hate Venmo, but, like, that was the single one of the single biggest

52:43

value ads was just the fact that you could just, like, bill friends,

52:48

for paying you back. Mhmm.

52:50

Yeah. That was one of the big reasons we text them. You're like, you still owe me $20. You still owe me $20.

52:56

And, well, I forget what it was. I think it was the Bronx Tale or whatever. It was like, if a friend owes you $20 and doesn't pay you back, that's, like, the cheapest

53:03

way to realize that you're never gonna lend the money again. But

53:07

And and and weirdly with with lightning, I feel like a lot of times the problem is the opposite

53:13

where you'll wanna pay somebody back

53:15

and, you keep on asking them to give you an invoice, and they just never get around to it. Or even if they do give you an invoice, maybe you buyers. You are, like, asleep. And when you try to pay it, now they're not on online anymore. So, you know, now that we have lightning address, that that part is solved too.

53:31

And that was, like, one of the big reasons we went with, like, adding DMs, whereas, like, we were trying to figure out, like, okay, we have, like, push payments to someone. How do we request payments to someone? And, like, we're trying to, like, galaxy brain, like, some notch bulk connect stuff of, like, oh, what if you had, like, an NWC that you could only

53:47

ask invoices over for, and you'd create an individual one for each contact so you know who it's from.

53:52

But it's like that it is, like, became like a commentary explosion of, like, stupid things. Whereas, like, what if we just did DMs and just send an invoice and a DM to them and, like, it just handles their just, like, did a total grog brain version of it. And,

54:06

that's what we did because it made it so much simpler. And now we have, like, chat in the app. So, like, it's like a feature ad as well as, like, adding the thing the original thing we wanted was with requests.

54:15

And, like, it's cool because, like, a lot of, like, Noster clients, like, implemented this, like, a year ago, like, before we even had zaps where, like, if you posted an invoice, it would, like, render it as an invoice. So we just, like, did the same thing in Mutiny.

54:28

It's not if I DM an invoice to you, but you don't use Mutiny,

54:31

you use Primal or you use Domus.

54:34

You can just see, oh, someone sent me an invoice and you just hit pay. Right? And, you know, your preferred Noster client instead of, like, having to use Mutiny's specific protocol.

54:43

Yeah. That's I mean, that's another thing worth noting is is the whole big part of this whole social stuff being based on Nostra means this contact list that you're developing of people you pay or ask for money

54:55

is portable across multiple apps now, which is pretty awesome. You know? We work in Primo. It works in Zeus.

55:02

It's it's it's pretty cool instead of, you know, oh, I don't like this wall anymore. Now I gotta rebuild my social graph.

55:08

Yeah. I mean

55:09

and that's one of, like, the predatory things that, like,

55:13

Venmo or Cash App has done. Right?

55:16

Is that if you leave them and you try and go to a different payment app,

55:19

you gotta start your social graph from from scratch. Mhmm.

55:23

And that's not the case anymore. And, I mean, I think it's really cool that with Nasr, like, first of all, you can you can build it into your wallet without any permission.

55:30

You don't have to deal with the potential centralized entity rugging you out of API access.

55:35

And then this the the second thing is

55:39

is I mean, you guys I I believe I don't know if it's still the case, but I I believe you're using primal's caching server, which is false. So you're running your own version of primal primal's caching server,

55:50

which I just think is just so fucking awesome. It's just like compounding freedom.

55:57

Is that still Yeah. Yeah. We're still running it. Yeah. And and it and it's so it's so quick and fast.

56:04

I'm, like, very grateful for for for the software and the team, but, like, I wanna see

56:09

I wanna see, like, more relays, like, normal relays, especially if they're a big relay anyways

56:15

running a primal caches service on the side,

56:18

for their application. Right? Like, there's there's no reason

56:22

that, when it comes this is just gets into an Oster specific stuff, but there's no reason why you can't have multiple pieces of software in the software stack for for, like, Nostra infrastructure and distribute it where you're hitting

56:36

many different, like, normal, very dumb NOS relays, and then you're also hitting, like, more advanced

56:42

functionality you can add on to it as well. So, like, I would I would, like, it's very great software and, like, very thankful for the team for, like, building it. And, also, like, you know, any anytime we run into, like, little issues here and there, like, they they help provide support and, like,

56:56

you know, talk to us on, like, GitHub issues or, you know, the fit submit PRs,

57:00

based on our feedback and stuff. So they've been really easy to work with, but then the software itself has been great. Yeah. What

57:07

go.

57:08

Even on, like, feature requests, they've been great. Like, our Zap feed, we originally needed,

57:13

help with them for. And they, like within, like, 2 weeks or something, they had that feature ready for us. And, like, that's when we first set it up. And I think we need another one recently for, like, all the like, an API to see, like, is this a real user or not? And, they're like like, oh, yeah. We already built that. We didn't, put it in the GitHub repo yet. We pushed it up immediately, and now we're running it. It's, like, super nice that they just, like, work real quick for us.

57:35

Yeah. That Zap feed is an example of something that would not be, like, a feasible

57:40

query, like, between who I'm following,

57:44

you know, who is zapping them and who are they zapping? That was a question that there wasn't, like, a good

57:51

lost or query for at the time to traditional release. So that's just information you couldn't really really get. Another another this is kind of in the weeds, but To be clear, that shows, like, it shows which of my friends are paying other people

58:04

via zaps. Who's who's sending Bitcoin pay public Bitcoin payments between each other. Yeah. It's like stalking people on Venmo, but based on Master.

58:12

Yeah.

58:13

The another this is very weedy, but I think it's a good example of why, like, primal is nice as the primal API is nice as an app developer is, like,

58:21

you know, when I request that list of zaps, it comes with,

58:27

like, the the primal has, like, URLs

58:30

for for images. So, like, it it the way Nostra works, if you got a list of events, right,

58:37

and each of those has a profile, you you that query might come back with all those profiles, but all those profiles are gonna have those avatar image URLs, which are just hosted on a bunch of different places. Right? So now your client, like, you got a list of a 100 different profiles that you wanna display. Now your client is gonna have to hit up, like, a 100 different web servers for for a 100 different images,

59:01

that might be, you know, not super well optimized and all sorts of things.

59:05

It could be malicious in logging IPs even. Yeah. Yeah. So and and this this is not just something that, like, primal is fixing. You know? I think, I don't know, Stu, satellite dot earth, has been thinking a lot about this. Like, I in the ideal case, you know, you might

59:21

individual users might run something similar

59:24

to the primal caching servers

59:27

just for themselves. Like, I want something like this that acts as a proxy

59:32

and and and makes requests from my actual client

59:36

much more optimized and more private and and

59:41

and simpler in a lot of ways. So I'd love I'd love to see, you know,

59:46

Steve's working on stuff like this where you you're you're self hosting kind of your own

59:51

caching, relays and stuff.

59:54

And so I'm I'm I'm excited to see things move that way because that that, you know, that super naive Noster client that just wakes up and starts asking a 1000000 different servers for stuff. It's just not it's not gonna ultimately result in the best UX.

1:00:09

So we have pseudo Carlos in the in the chat, writer, Dietrich,

1:00:13

saying that he thinks the privacy option for each payment should be more prominent. I would go even further than that,

1:00:21

to submit another nonworking code issue.

1:00:25

It'd be nice if, like, if I typed in Tony and I wanted to pay Tony, it should default to private. And then if I want it to be public,

1:00:33

I can checkbox public it.

1:00:36

It is it's default it defaults to private every time right now. Oh, nice. Or default. And then, yeah, there is a relatively subtle button.

1:00:46

So private is just like, hey. The there's no master

1:00:49

metadata being attached to this payment. You know? It's just,

1:00:53

So if I search Tony and pay Tony, like, it's not publicly going to people's Zap feed. Right? Right. Then if you

1:00:59

push that little it is pretty small button that says private, it goes to private Zap.

1:01:04

So that is a payment to Tony where you can, like, include, like, you know, a zap message, and and it it it shows up for him as a as a zap.

1:01:14

But that is still not going to people publicly. And then if you push that button one more time, it goes to public Zap. And that's when you're, you know, telling everybody.

1:01:23

Well, the fact that we're having this conversation means the UX probably uses could use a little work, humble.

1:01:29

Yeah. But yes.

1:01:31

Absolutely. But but I would say,

1:01:35

I don't know the obvious answer to, you know, making that button

1:01:39

more prominent and yet not, like, you know Why not private Zap?

1:01:44

Why why not just default to private Zap? What's the trade off there?

1:01:49

I don't remember.

1:01:50

And there's a I think we talked about wanting to to do that instead. But but there's there's even yeah. There's, like, add ons apps, private apps, public apps.

1:01:59

It gets a little it gets a little Like, you may wanna send a payment to someone and not know you are the one who sent it.

1:02:06

Right. Like, private and public. Like, people

1:02:10

yeah. I think I think there is a use case for that.

1:02:15

There is some, like, weird implication as well. Like, with private zaps, like,

1:02:20

people can't see that I, you know, gave Paul a $100,

1:02:24

but everyone can see that Paul received a $100 from someone.

1:02:28

So it kind of, like, you know, you're kind of, like, flipping it where, like their payment kinda. They they were saying Yeah. So you don't

1:02:35

So, yeah, if you're sending, like, you know, a $100,000,000,

1:02:38

so now it's like, oh, that guy's rich. I need I need to go to his house to get money. I'll go hit him with a $15 wrench. Exactly.

1:02:48

Okay. That makes sense. Tony,

1:02:50

I I had, we've been talking a lot about Nostra here. I mean, I had the Nostra dev call a couple weeks ago,

1:02:59

with Huddlbot and, Pablo,

1:03:04

and Mike Mike Dilger. And you you were you felt a little bit there was a little bit of fence taken there. Do you have any comments that you you want to tell the freaks

1:03:15

about that that rip?

1:03:18

It went it was a good rip. I was listening to that during a long drive.

1:03:23

And I think I think And yeah. I think my main issue is that

1:03:27

yeah. Like, you know, the the concept model,

1:03:33

it's interesting. I would I would suggest if if people haven't

1:03:36

heard heard yet, go back and listen to that. It was it was good.

1:03:40

And then there's this there's this thing that we built at Muni called blaster,

1:03:44

which is, like it's it's compatible with with relays,

1:03:49

but its whole purpose is you add it as a relay to your Nostra client, and then it will send the message out to, like, every single relay up to, like, 300 relays that are, like, online on Noster. So I guess it blasts the message out

1:04:02

to to as many places as possible because

1:04:05

I consider I consider Noster

1:04:08

a broadcast network. It's really great at, like, discovering,

1:04:13

things that have been broadcasted and is really good at sending things to be broadcasted.

1:04:18

And that's how I see the best. Everyone has their own opinions. Everyone

1:04:23

can, like, have I mean, you can have different opinions. You can have, like, different things that you would want to build on top of Noster. Like, oh, that's fine.

1:04:32

But I think I think the things that I had problems with were just mostly some comments that were made throughout it that said, like, I didn't care about Noster and, like, my opinion doesn't matter.

1:04:43

And so, like, if yeah. Not if if anyone just said that, like, it's fine. I don't care. But, like, to have some of these, like, prominent Noster people,

1:04:52

consider, like, myself and and the mutiny team, like, not caring about Nostra. Like, we're building so much on on on on top of this and for the users and having this interoperability.

1:05:03

Like, we're we're very much ends right now on on the success of Noster as well as as anyone else's. So,

1:05:11

that was that was the main thing I wanna say, though. Like, the open protocol

1:05:15

of Nostr is is like it's it's both

1:05:19

a a great feature for users of Mutiny to have, just the fact that, like, they can take their identity anywhere else and things like that. But it's a great feature for a business. Just the fact that we can plug into this and, like, let's say let's say a war a more,

1:05:34

you know, well capitalized company than than Mutiny, you know, pulls in, like, 100 of 1,000 to 1,000,000 of users, you know, that we can't pull in ourselves.

1:05:43

But now all of a sudden we're interoperable with that. And and and now that we have,

1:05:50

I don't think Paul mentioned it, but now that we have this, like, social feature, like, anyone that uses Mutiny and is not a Nostra user

1:05:56

well, now they're a Nostra user. We, like, create an Nostra account for them if they don't already bring one in to the wall. You can import it, but if you don't bring one in, now you're an user. Now you can set a profile. You can set a lighting address. You can set, you know, your name and and other things like that. So now you're now we're starting to we haven't had this sort of support before. We were using Noster, but we weren't, like,

1:06:19

adding to the social Noster profile,

1:06:22

you know, part of Noster. But now with this latest feature, like, now anyone that comes in and likes MeetMe as a wallet, well, now they're a new Nasr user. Now they are interoperable with with Primal. They're interoperable with Amethyst and Domus, and they can send zaps back and forth.

1:06:38

You know, we just kinda specialize in in just the payment activity.

1:06:43

We we don't, like, show note fees, and I don't know if we want to get into that at all. I would prefer not to at least for a long time.

1:06:52

But, you know, now we're contributing back to the Nostra ecosystem through the use of its profile

1:06:58

feature. And I think I, you know, I think that's really valuable, and now we can contribute back and and kind of try our best to get more Bitcoiners

1:07:06

using our wallet and then now using Oster. So, yeah, I mean, I I thought it was a great episode. I really enjoyed it. I just had had a few complaints about

1:07:15

people just brushing off my opinions of of Noster and and the and the blaster thing we built and all of the other Noster features we built and kinda just saying we don't we don't care about Noster at all. I mean,

1:07:25

first of all,

1:07:26

I think you clearly care about Noster to the point where if there's probably a bunch of BlueCheck Bitcoiners listening to this rip

1:07:33

that think we've talked about Nostar too much,

1:07:37

already. Second of all, I wanted to mention that,

1:07:41

Huddl bod, is in the live chat saying that he appreciates your work.

1:07:47

I love that dude. He's a good dude. But I I definitely appreciate you guys. I mean, I think you guys are building,

1:07:55

one of, you know, the most useful Bitcoin apps and one of the most useful Nostra apps,

1:08:01

in existence right now. So thank you, guys. And I know I submit a lot of non code working issues.

1:08:07

So thank you for dealing with me. And then last but not least,

1:08:12

I'm kinda curious. So, like,

1:08:16

well, first, I wanna talk about blaster a little bit. So, like, blaster is, like, this idea that, like, I put

1:08:22

noster.mutinywallet.com in my relay list, and it just blasts my notes out to

1:08:29

what how many relays? 300 the top 300 relays, or is it every relay?

1:08:35

Top 300 that are currently on. Why why why do you stop at 300?

1:08:42

Just from a cost perspective. And and at the time, there was kind of only, like, 3 hun like, there's a, I think, maybe a 1000 or 2. Like, most of them are offline.

1:08:52

And yeah. At the time, I haven't checked lately.

1:08:57

There's an API that we hit to to nostril.watch,

1:09:01

to see who's online at the time. But, yeah, it's it's also cost perspective.

1:09:05

Every 50 that we add to it adds a little bit more to the cost. But, you know, we we do all that, and we push,

1:09:11

like, 25,000 messages,

1:09:14

a day through is, at one point, we at one point, we were doing a 100,000,

1:09:20

but I think I think someone was just broadcasting all all monster events through us. So we just we we censored that IP address.

1:09:29

We we yeah. I mean, we're we're we're I'm more of the perspective of, like, if an individual

1:09:35

wants to volunteer in the broadcast, you know, notes that they

1:09:39

see and the and the broadcast the notes that they make and get those to as much reach as possible, I'm all for that. I think I think, like, businesses

1:09:47

you know, if it was the master people themselves, I don't know who it was. You know, I think they should I think they should either do it themselves or or I don't know. I kinda pay. I kinda look at it like I look at Federman. Like, I'm into Nostr for the censorship resistance,

1:10:00

and, you know, I I hope that we have stuff like the outbox model and

1:10:06

and and other iterative improvements that make Nostr

1:10:10

more censorship resistant. But until then, like, blaster works today, so I'm gonna blast my notes out to every relay that will accept them. And and blaster makes it incredibly easy for me to do that,

1:10:21

without directly broadcasting to all of them and potentially leaking IP addresses if my VPN fails or something like that.

1:10:30

Exactly. And and and it's, you know, I say, like, from a cost perspective, we don't wanna just, like, bubble up into into, like, you know, thousands of relays. But, like, you know and, like, it has only costed us, like, 50, $60 a month for the past year in doing 25,000

1:10:44

a day. So, like, it's not even that as much, but I just don't wanna keep, like,

1:10:49

300 is fine. You know, if if we really need to get into more, we can. I'm happy to blast more if that's what people want. We have Kieran in the chat, by the way. He's the maintainer of, ZapStream. Thank you, Kieran, for your work.

1:11:05

I mean I mean, that's the thing. Like, some people wanted it to die since day 1. Like, we've been operating it for, like, over a year at this point, and not a single person has asked me to stop.

1:11:16

No. Like, I'm being honest. Like, not a single person said stop doing What I was gonna say is regardless of blaster, I broadcast to Cure and Relay just because I like ZapStream, and I wanna make sure it works correctly.

1:11:30

Yeah. But, yeah, that's the thing. I don't think anyone, like, will want to ask me to stop. I think I think I think they

1:11:37

also feel that it's a thing that they can't stop

1:11:41

as well, or if they try to stop, they would have some consequences of that.

1:11:46

So it's just like a thing that, like you know, I think it's a protocol that is great for

1:11:59

can close down things and create your community on top of it. I think client selection stuff needs to be a lot better if that's the goal, and I think you can make your own client that specializes in communities.

1:12:11

But I think Noster as it is right now is a broadcast assistant. That's what Hotabot was Hotabot is doing with the core goal.

1:12:18

Yeah. No. I think that's a great idea. I mean, I think I'd I'm not trying to, you know, I'm not trying to

1:12:24

say don't do that. Like, I think it's a great idea. But, like, you know,

1:12:28

you can build it on top of it, but, like, Nostra is

1:12:31

a cyst an open protocol system itself.

1:12:34

If you've run any open relay, you're participating

1:12:38

in this broadcast public broadcast system. And so if you have any problems with that, you need to close down your relay

1:12:46

to either, like, shut it down completely or just, like, close it off to just, like, a community.

1:12:51

If Blaster didn't exist, I would just broadcast

1:12:54

directly to a shit ton of relays.

1:12:58

No.

1:12:59

Or or create your own software to do it. Well, or ask you to. But yeah.

1:13:04

Yeah.

1:13:05

I also want the record to show that I invited Tony onto that rip, and he, declined.

1:13:10

Oh, wow. Wow. Yeah.

1:13:13

I was

1:13:14

I was I think I was, like, moving in that day.

1:13:17

But the important thing is the invite was made. And then last but not least, Tony,

1:13:22

following that rip, you said you were gonna integrate Twitter into

1:13:25

Unity Wallet. Are you actually gonna do that? Or

1:13:29

Just a minute.

1:13:30

That was that was a side handed note that maybe one day we actually do.

1:13:37

I mean okay. Let's talk about that for a second. Let's talk about it for a second because I think I think it's really interesting. Like, imagine

1:13:42

imagine this. Like, imagine if we were through the DMs.

1:13:45

You know? Like, we we let's say we just paid for the API access, and we just, like, you know, bow down to Elon for a moment.

1:13:53

But just the idea that, like, okay. Now we can we were already plugged into a a system where there's potentially, like, a 100,000 or so users

1:14:01

or, yeah, maybe 50 to a 100000 users to have set lighting addresses

1:14:05

on Noster. So, like, all of a sudden, we plug into that. But now, like, all of a sudden, we plug into a system where there's, like, millions of people with, like that could either have a Lightning address in their bio, or we can just send e cash to them in a DM.

1:14:18

Like, you know, at the end of the day, we're trying to pay people, and where are the most amount of people? I think that's I think that's on Twitter. So and and if you use MuniWad or or sign up to redeem the e cash,

1:14:30

then all of a sudden, like, now you have an Oster account. And, like, and there was already, like, a

1:14:35

a a website a year ago. I haven't seen it be used in quite a while or suggested in quite a while.

1:14:42

I think it's dead now.

1:14:44

Yeah. But there was a yeah. I think the API is closed off anyways and it died. But let's say you do pay for the APIs where you can just do that, or now you can link Twitter accounts and Nasr accounts and make this Discover around Nasr a whole lot better. And now the interoperability between the 2

1:14:59

Yeah. I'm not against it.

1:15:01

Of course, the issue is that Elon could just shut it down immediate whenever he wants.

1:15:06

Right. Yeah. You know, of course, like, a prices. Price the prices on the.

1:15:12

Week. Yeah. I mean, you should add TikTok integration,

1:15:15

Instagram, Facebook, Twitter,

1:15:18

LinkedIn. Why stop it? But I mean, if you think about it The key is that they can all get blocked at at Facebook was was, like, the portable social graph.

1:15:27

I I feel like that's a lot of my friends on Venmo, well, back when I used Venmo, was I think I did, like, a a Facebook import.

1:15:35

I love how, like, I'll be on some random device and I'll get like a calendar notification

1:15:40

from, like, somebody I knew 20 years ago. And it's all because

1:15:45

at some point I integrated something with Facebook and

1:15:49

that birthday info became viral. But,

1:15:53

Yeah, I do think there's, there's so much there too. I mean, it's, it ultimately, it's just, what are we trying to do? Like, we want, we want good money and we wanna be able to send and receive

1:16:04

that money. And so to, to, to people and to businesses.

1:16:08

And so, and, and

1:16:11

the, the problem is, is so many people

1:16:14

try to stop us from doing those things. And so we have to have these very

1:16:20

decentralized cypherpunk technologies

1:16:23

that are unruggable. But when we can, you know,

1:16:28

when we are allowed into spaces, I don't think we should be, you know, afraid of them.

1:16:34

Big community fans are big big fans of asking for permission.

1:16:40

The I I I think it's important to call out on the audio stream here that I responded in the word actually uses blaster. Don't shut it down.

1:16:50

Kieran knows that I will read any of his comments regardless of zaps being attached to them because I appreciate him so much.

1:16:57

He didn't include any stats with that comment.

1:17:03

This has been fantastic. Wait. Do you guys have anything else you wanna cover

1:17:07

while I have you?

1:17:13

I think

1:17:15

the the lightning is the, the lightning address stuff we just launched.

1:17:20

Yeah. That's badass. So I have to be a subscriber to get it. Right? It's it's an atmunity.plus,

1:17:26

lightning address?

1:17:27

Yeah. Exactly.

1:17:29

Can we talk about subscription payments? Yeah. Yeah. We can do that as well.

1:17:35

Because I I brought it up to Pierre on the Phoenix rep last week, and he made me feel like I was a crazy person.

1:17:45

It's true. I haven't listened to him on this.

1:17:47

How how are you crazy? Well, he's not paying attention to Nastr. They don't really care about Noster. And,

1:17:54

they're, like, full force ahead on bolt 12.

1:17:59

And he doesn't think, like I I mean, I don't wanna put words in his mouth. Like, people can listen to the rip last week, but I I it doesn't seem like NWC is a priority and, like, how you guys implemented

1:18:08

subscriptions through NWC. And then maybe part of the issue was me explaining it. So I will take some responsibility there.

1:18:17

I think the the main advantage is, like, bolt 12 has been talked about for, like, 4 years, it feels like now. And, like, we implemented NWC in about 2 hours.

1:18:27

So, like, you know, we can do subscriptions with NWC.

1:18:31

We've been doing them for the last year versus,

1:18:34

you know, both 12 still doesn't exist, at least in production yet. So it's like, you know Yeah. But if anyone can force it through, it's async and Phoenix.

1:18:42

Right. How

1:18:44

For them, but, like, you know, 90% of lightning nodes are l and d, which are, you know, not getting bolt 12 for, like, multiple years. So, like, sure, you could subscribe to async, but like, if I want to subscribe to bit refill or the Bitcoin company who like, they run LND nodes, it's like, Okay, I can't subscribe to them. And they have to change their entire infrastructure to support that. So let's talk about how NWC

1:19:04

subscriptions work.

1:19:06

And NWC is like basically just you're basically over

1:19:10

an Oster DM sending an invoice saying, like, please pay this.

1:19:13

And, then the wallet can implement any kind of logics, like a mutiny. We have either, like, we have 2 modes. One's, like, auto approve with a budget. So, like, as long as this payment this invoice isn't within my budget, I'll pay it automatically.

1:19:27

Otherwise, there's, like, the click to approve where every single invoice shows up as request,

1:19:31

and you can approve or deny it manually. And, so basically, like, for subscriptions, we just, you know,

1:19:37

at, you know, whatever the the days, like, your subscription lapses, we just send you an invoice of, like, hey, pay this for your next, you know, month of mutiny plus.

1:19:46

And then you're also configured to pay it however you want. And, like feels like a pull payment, like a credit card pull payment, but it's really a push payment. Right? It's like your client when your client comes online, it's actually pushing the payment. It's just getting the request, the invoice through Nasr.

1:20:00

Yeah. If you if you sign up for Mutiny Plus, it will create one of these wallet connections, which what we call the our NWC connections. And so those are it's like a list of, you know, outstanding NWCs,

1:20:12

like, that that your wallet will recognize,

1:20:15

but then you also have the option to to hit the checkbox for autopay.

1:20:21

So so but you are, like, always in control. It is not in fact a a poll payment, but it is a it is a client still needs to come online to

1:20:31

push the payment. Yep. And and speaking of with bolt 12, I don't know exactly how this would work with Phoenix

1:20:38

because if your your note isn't online because your phone isn't, you know, open,

1:20:44

you know, is it going to see the the the the bolt 12 payment request? Yeah. Because they're they are the only ones who have implemented trampoline, and the LSP has trampoline and so does the client. So Well well, even regard this,

1:20:59

Bolt 12 for for this specific case will solve will help solve receiving

1:21:04

into the wall. This is this is bolt 12 isn't something that's gonna help, like, subscription payments.

1:21:10

That doesn't do anything as far as that goes. So, like, it's not even, there's not even a comparison there. Like No. It handles, like, the Noster address book instead of having, like,

1:21:20

attach an M pub attached to a lightning address.

1:21:23

Right? You just have, bolt 12 attached to your contact book. Like a stat this instead of a lightning address.

1:21:30

Yeah. Yeah. There's the lightning address thing for but that's received. So, like, Nasir Wallet Connect, this is a

1:21:37

payment request solution. This isn't like a payment receiving.

1:21:42

Like, he would an invoice. You're sending an invoice through Nasr,

1:21:46

automatically.

1:21:47

And It's for for the wallet to pay. If you wanted to connect your Phoenix wallet to a Noster client, you you would want, yeah, some way to give

1:21:58

invoices to that wallet, asynchronously

1:22:01

so that when you open the wallet, it it can choose to pay them.

1:22:08

Awesome.

1:22:09

Do you guys see Kieran's comments

1:22:13

about trying to,

1:22:14

get his lightning address set up? How did we we scam him?

1:22:18

I don't know. Make sure make sure you're

1:22:21

make sure you're on the recent version, 0.6.3.

1:22:25

It should just be in your, like, profile settings.

1:22:32

Karen,

1:22:33

this is not a support line.

1:22:36

Just just for a little clarity for how mutiny plus works,

1:22:41

if because iOS doesn't allow

1:22:44

you know, you can't do, like, you know, you know, like, you can't pay for an Audible subscription

1:22:50

in, you can't pay for, like, digital products, especially the digital feature of the apps inside of an Apple app,

1:22:59

instead of an iOS app. And so if you have the iOS app, you can just go to

1:23:05

plus.mutiewalt, or what was it?

1:23:08

Meet me dot plus or whatever,

1:23:10

or plus. What is the domain?

1:23:12

Meet me dot plus. You go to meet me dot plus,

1:23:15

and there's a QR you can scan, and you'll get to, like, the secret page where you can,

1:23:19

pay for yeah. Pay for MeetMe Plus.

1:23:24

And then after that, then you go to your profile or at the bottom of that page, there should be a create an address button, or you can go to your profile page, and there should be an option to So you can go to the iOS and go to your profile page? If you've joined the Federation. So you'll need to join the Federation, and then you'll get the option to

1:23:43

create an address. Yeah. Yeah. I think we're answering, and he went af AFK. He's not even listening.

1:23:48

I know. Yeah. But

1:23:50

but yeah. I mean, on that on that topic,

1:23:53

lightning address in general, the the way

1:23:56

like, doing lightning address in a noncustodial

1:23:59

setting is very difficult, especially for mobile wallets.

1:24:03

It's why we haven't really seen it from

1:24:06

from Breeze or Phoenix for 1. Zeus has it. From Zeus and you banned them. You wanna talk about that? Yeah.

1:24:12

Yeah. Well, so this is the problem

1:24:15

with you. There's a choice.

1:24:18

Yeah. There's a problem with the way I mean, this is the problem with self custodial lighting addresses and the mobile context is you're not online to finish the payment.

1:24:28

So payments get stuck. Those get stuck across the whole entire Lightning Network.

1:24:34

Channels close as a result of it.

1:24:37

It especially hurts if you're a mobile user paying

1:24:42

to a Zeus address user because

1:24:45

you might not come back online to finish the failure part of the payment, and then your channel as a mutant user gets closed. So those have caused, like, too many problems for for mutiny, for mutiny users, for other wallet devs, for other routing nodes on the network.

1:25:02

And, you know, I think I think Blix has a similar solution as well.

1:25:07

The way we wanted to go about it is, like, using Fediment for federated addresses.

1:25:13

So instead of, a single custodian being, like instead of going this way where you just hold payments forever, instead of and then the other end of the spectrum is that you just have a custodian

1:25:24

for your Lightning address. We see that a lot with people with, well, it's associates

1:25:27

or get Alibi addresses. So that's the other end of the spectrum.

1:25:32

Or Yeah. Primal as well with with strike.

1:25:35

The middle ground is using a federation for it where, like, not a single

1:25:40

party could take the funds. And with the way we do it has been heavily inspired by,

1:25:46

I think it's the MiniBits people or or just the the Ecash address people. I I I forget if they're the same people, but there's they've been experiment like, they can move really they're moving really fast when it comes to Ecash innovation,

1:25:58

because a lot of Fediment is working on just the federated protocol

1:26:02

as well. So, like, e cash has has had this concept for a few months now,

1:26:08

ECash locked to your nostril pub key. So that that inspired

1:26:12

Cody Lowe and then us to to come in and and build a solution

1:26:17

like that, but on on top of Fedimint. So whenever you

1:26:20

whenever you create a Fedimint address, sorry, a Lightning add address immunity that's backed by a federation,

1:26:26

but not only that, is it's your

1:26:29

your e cache is locked to your public key. So when you come back online, only you can sweep the funds and and redeem it into your own Fedimint or to your own Lightning

1:26:42

that's to your own Lightning node. So it's this kind of middle ground where, like, even the Lightning address server

1:26:48

can't steal your funds after,

1:26:52

because it's it's it's settled. The Lightning payment is settled directly into

1:26:57

pubkey locked ecash. So even after that happens, the Lightning address server, like, DMs you on Nasr, here is your ecash information.

1:27:06

The worst they can do is just stop doing that and not redeeming the funds, but they can't they can't ever steal the funds.

1:27:13

They can stop you from getting paid. Right. Exactly. They can yeah. It can either shut down or they've not send the DM or something like that, but they can't steal the funds.

1:27:22

So, you know, it's it's it's still trusted, but it's, like, you know, not custodial on that regard.

1:27:28

Am I correct that you get

1:27:30

it's it's if you get paid via the lightning address versus,

1:27:35

like, sending an invoice, is it worse privacy?

1:27:41

Like, do you When? Okay. No. The landing address server can spy on your payment receipts. Right? Obviously, it knows. I mean, they'll know they'll know what you've received,

1:27:51

but here's the cool thing. And, like, very few people will probably appreciate this, but the way we've gone about lightning address names too,

1:28:00

we we we use the same e cash technology for lightning

1:28:04

name registration. So we we do what's called, like, blinded authentication

1:28:08

for Lightning address registration. So, basically, what that means is when you're a mutiny plus user,

1:28:14

you get these blinded tokens

1:28:17

that allow you to use one of them to redeem

1:28:21

a lightning address name. And so you reserve the name. You register it registers a pub key from the wallet,

1:28:28

that the e cash is locked to. And from there, there's, like, no way we can correlate,

1:28:35

any of your wallet information from your landing address.

1:28:40

So, like, at that way, it's kinda separate. So we know

1:28:43

we will know your your this random name is getting a bunch of sats and but we don't know anything about the user. We don't know who they are at the end of the day besides, like, okay. If it's Odell

1:28:54

if it's Odell at, you know, mutiny dot plus, then we it might be you or might be someone that took that name first. We don't know.

1:29:02

But we don't know anything about the underlying wallet. We don't know, like, their SaaS. We don't like, everything we build is so it's the most private as possible and that that go and so from there, like, we wanna use the same tech

1:29:13

to do support tickets. So if you make a support ticket, we don't know anything about you, your wallet, or anything else. You can and and we don't know anything about your previous support ticket. There's just a random support ticket that we know

1:29:25

that the user has, like, either paid for or been a plus user and they get a few for free,

1:29:31

something like that. So, like, this tech can be used to, like, basically, all we all we care about is, like, have they paid. We don't care about who they are, what they do. In fact, like, the more information we know, the worse the user is off, the worse we are off because now we have more information to protect.

1:29:47

So the least amount that we know is better for everyone all around.

1:29:51

And and we kind of started building this blinded authentication

1:29:55

registration stuff to kind of, you know,

1:29:58

build towards that direction.

1:30:01

That's awesome.

1:30:04

Do you wanna talk about the issues with Zeus' implementation

1:30:10

as you feel and why, like, why you have it blocked? I mean,

1:30:14

am I correct that okay. Go on. But let's talk about that. I thought I thought we were yeah. I thought I thought explain it. It it it just locks lightning payments. Anything that locks lightning payments for a long period of time

1:30:26

is is harmful for the network. It causes forced closures.

1:30:30

We just did it for zaps. We we mostly just did it for zaps, and you can turn that off if you wanted to.

1:30:36

The thing with zaps is, like, people were zapping, like, 21 sats or something like that to others and then going offline, and those payments were getting stuck and causing forced closure. And, like, you know, at first,

1:30:47

it's so funny. Like, one user, when we made that announcement,

1:30:51

he was like, what the fuck? This is not okay. I can't believe you're censoring. And then, like, 5 minutes later, he was like, oh, I just checked the wallet and my channel closed. I just like the future. And, you know, it's it's like, you know, it's not it's not you know, we might disagree with the approach.

1:31:07

I don't think it works very well for our wallet, but, you know, it's yeah. We'll we'll allow it if people wanna turn that off. Well, so if they're paying for Infini Mint, does it it's still it doesn't have that problem anymore, or does it still have that problem?

1:31:20

Yeah. So no forced closes on on Fedimint,

1:31:23

which is which is great. So the way we rolled out this Fedimint integration, there was some confusion about,

1:31:30

you know, some people at a Fannie Mae that have been a mutiny user for a long time. So, like, the first question they ask is, like, cool. I added a Fannie Mae. How do I how do I receive to it? How do I send from it? How do I, like, swap and all this stuff? And the whole point of it is that you have the Fannie Mae and especially if you have a lightning channel too and it's a hybrid mode, it just should make the best decisions for you based on the context. So it's like if you receive

1:31:52

yeah. If you create an invoice for under 200,000

1:31:55

sats, that just goes to the Fedimip first. And then you can decide when you wanna open a channel with it. We don't make we make no decisions for you on that. Like, you're you're in control of your funds. It's just, like, by default, under 200 k goes in the Fedimip.

1:32:08

Spending, you know, we spend from the Fedimip first. Right? Like, you should have you know, we kinda look it as a middle ground. Like, you should

1:32:15

you should spend your hot wallet sats first and keep your cold storage sats, like, protected. The same applies in this scenario. You should keep your Fedimint sats. You should let those go first,

1:32:25

and you should hold, you know, this sort of self custodial lightning

1:32:29

balance as much as you can. So we spend from the Fedimint First if there's a balance available and then fall back to, like, the the lightning channel if there's funds on there. The cool thing is that, like, spending for the Fedimint first, you know, all those, like, 20 set payments that might not complete that you go offline for, well, that's actually okay now. You can go offline.

1:32:48

When you come back online, you can settle the the e cash settlement, like, when they come online. Like, it's not a problem at all.

1:32:57

So there's no force closure concerns there.

1:32:59

You can go offline and come back online later.

1:33:03

Yeah. So I I just think it's,

1:33:06

yeah, kind of a kind of it solves a lot of pain points from channel closes unexpectedly

1:33:12

for just tiny payments. It would probably be able to pay SUSPay users a little easier because they won't have that problem.

1:33:21

And, yeah, no. I think I think that covers everything from that perspective. Fucking love the hybrid model.

1:33:27

Mhmm.

1:33:28

Some people have wanted, like, to make it configurable. I think I think that's reasonable in the setting somewhere.

1:33:33

I felt like 200 is, like, a good starting point.

1:33:37

There's a certain point where, like, if you're putting if you're putting millions, you know, millions and millions of sats in the Unity Wall, like, we're optimizing for being a hot wall, spinning wall at first.

1:33:46

So, like, at a certain point, you should just, like, get those sets off.

1:33:51

I know I know it's, like, a priorities thing, but, like, maybe, like, in 6 months, a year, or something, like, maybe the flow is

1:33:59

is that there's, like you know, like, Android, you can go into developer mode?

1:34:03

Like, maybe it's, you know, you go into advanced settings and you switch to

1:34:08

advanced mode or something, and then the interface is a little bit different for, like, advanced users.

1:34:16

May maybe that's the play. But, I mean, I'm not saying that this should be a priority in terms of development. But

1:34:22

at some point, you know, you add all these nice polish features, and then you wanna give

1:34:29

rolling. Maybe they're they add advanced mode.

1:34:35

Yeah. That is definitely the UX

1:34:37

trade off over and over is if you give more choices to people because you want to empower them to have, you know, more control,

1:34:45

you confuse other people.

1:34:49

Yeah.

1:34:50

Yeah. My hope is we could just have, like, payment only mode,

1:34:55

like, hybrid mode, like, which kind of exists now. And then, like, a third mode that's, like,

1:35:00

hybrid, but prefer self custody where, like, any stats in your feminine are just auto sweeps to self custodial. So you can still have so you can still have, like, all the nice features, but then, like, the second you come online, it's left to your self custodial, so you don't have to, like, have that trust when you don't need it.

1:35:16

You know, and, like, that wouldn't be too too hard to build. It's just, you know, priorities and stuff like you said. But,

1:35:21

something like that would be fun where it's like we can just kind of, like,

1:35:24

kind of have all these cases, which is like a mode selector or something.

1:35:29

Oh, the the cool one, we were talking about NWC and, you know, some of this stuff. The cool one is, like, we're thinking about some like a Fediment based module

1:35:38

that you know, one of the problems with Nasir Wallet Connect is, like, yeah, if you're a mutant user, you do have to come back online for those payments to go through. Even if it's on auto approve, you still have to come online and those payments will be auto approved, but you have to be online.

1:35:53

You know, we might be able to do something with, like, a FEDIMIP module where you can, like, prefund,

1:35:57

let's say, like, 10 k sats that,

1:36:00

you know, whatever your budget is, you can prefund

1:36:03

it and Nostra not because Nostra

1:36:06

because of the Fannie Mae could use the same keys as Nostra and it's all distributed,

1:36:10

like those you could have pub key locked, e cash to the federation,

1:36:15

or when Noster WalletConnect messages come in, then the guardians will, like, decide whether or not to fulfill those lightning invoices. So you could have, like, a federated

1:36:24

offline Nasrbot Connect module,

1:36:27

where now all of a sudden your NosterWall Connect messages are actually, you know, going to the federation, and those are being paid for while you're actually offline. And so, like, we can facilitate sort of, like, offline payments that way

1:36:39

for the users. So, like, that's that's something, like, pretty advanced, but, like, that's one of the things we're kinda running into now is, like, users are, like, unsure about Nasr Raw Connect and, like, oh, I had set auto approval, but, like, those didn't send out.

1:36:52

Another evolution of that could be, like, a federated instance for these Nostrilall connect messages.

1:36:57

Yeah. And then it's, like, you only need to come online once, like, that balance is depleted. And, like, we could just, like, you know, push notification. Oh, open the wall at the top up here in w c, and then it's, like, good to go from there.

1:37:11

Yeah. That makes sense to me.

1:37:16

Awesome. This has been a great chat, fellas.

1:37:19

I've enjoyed it. I hope, the freaks have enjoyed it as well.

1:37:25

If you're in the live chat, feel free to drop any questions if you think we didn't cover anything. Do you guys

1:37:31

have anything you wanna cover that we haven't covered?

1:37:37

I don't think so.

1:37:39

Yeah. I mean, I think one thing from our perspective, like, we we really do wanna get feedback and

1:37:45

to, like, feature requests, especially, like, you know, bigger ones. Like, yeah, bug features for sure. Like, keep sending those through. But, like, you know, one of the things now, like, we we finally got, like, some of the stuff in there. We finally got Lightning address. We'll have that released more broadly for other people soon. We're still working out the kinks. We had some few problems with new new addresses yesterday that we fixed.

1:38:06

So we're rolling that out slowly. But, yeah, any big features, any, like, direction you wanna see Muni head towards, like, this is kind of now the time to ask because, like, we're very, like, user

1:38:20

feedback driven, and we've sort of, yeah, solved a lot of those problems over the last few weeks. So we really wanna head towards a direction that, you know, people can, you know, suggest.

1:38:29

And and so some of the best feedback right now for us is is

1:38:33

I it like like, the, like, the user stories type. Like, I am I am this kind of guy,

1:38:40

and I'm trying to pay this kind of thing. Like, this is what I'm trying to accomplish. Like, you know,

1:38:45

if you wanted to tell us, like, the a certain button should be, like, you know, more visible or something, that's that's great too.

1:38:51

But explaining use cases that that right now, like, you think Lightning is almost able to fulfill, but it can't yet. You know? Like like, basic things, like, you know, like, I'm I'm doing remittance payments or, like, hey. There's a there's a guy, you know, that that wants to accept Bitcoin, but, you know, he had this misgiving, and so he wants me to be able to pay him in Bitcoin, but this is the reason he he, he won't let me pay him a Bitcoin.

1:39:17

Though those cut that kind of feedback because, you know, we're we're pretty technical, and we have the ability to, you know, potentially solve some of these these you know, get over some of the hurdles that maybe we haven't gotten yet for for, you know, general general spending in Bitcoin.

1:39:33

So, yeah, I'd love I'd love that kind of feedback as well. I see some questions in the comments that I'd like to cover real quick. Ben, in the beginning of,

1:39:42

in the beginning of mutiny, you kept talking about coin join. Is is coin join gonna happen

1:39:48

in mutiny?

1:39:50

And I would like to, but the I mean, it's

1:39:52

like we've more and more just gone down this, like, social payments wallet, so it doesn't fit in as much. And, like, the thing is like, Fedimint is kind of like a better privacy tool than CoinJoin.

1:40:02

So we've kind of like solve like, what we wanted CoinJoin to solve already with Fedimint.

1:40:08

I mean, like, the the real, like, then if you wanna do coin join, I'd wanna do something like you could coin join into a federation

1:40:15

and, then it'd be like, you know, it'd be like a coin join, but it's even cheaper. And,

1:40:21

you know, you get better privacy at at the, like, you know, the the post mix privacy is, like, a lot easier. But,

1:40:27

you know, it'd be a lot to build and, we you know, it's just like it'd be happy to be, like, a whole separate app versus from Unity because, like, CoinJoin on mobile apps don't work the best. So, you know, it's something, like, we'd like to do one day maybe, but Priorities.

1:40:40

Yes. Priorities.

1:40:44

Is,

1:40:46

if, Phoenix adds Bold 12, you guys are based on LDK, you're gonna add Bold 12 support?

1:40:52

I did a bolt 12 immunity,

1:40:55

in, like, October. I did one in untest network.

1:40:58

But, like, I had to, like, fork a bunch of stuff and, like, make channels public and all that stuff to get to work. I would love to add support for it. It's just I think, like,

1:41:07

LDK has it, like, in beta. It's I don't think it's full voice support yet. And then we have other issues where, like,

1:41:14

you know, even if, like, everything supported both 12 and LDK and mutiny, it's like, okay. Like, you need to allow the network to support, like, routing onion messages.

1:41:25

Otherwise, you can't get those payments across.

1:41:28

And, like, I think I forget who, but I think it's and Carla was posting the other day. 12 with with nostril messages instead of onion messages?

1:41:39

And, theoretically, but then it's not bolt 12 anymore.

1:41:42

The bolt 13? Yeah. Bolt 13. We we have bolt 12 at home, it's called, NWC.

1:41:47

Yeah. Yeah.

1:41:48

We we could we could pay bolt 12. Right, Ben?

1:41:52

Not yet. I mean, yeah, the receiving of bolt 12 is a lot more complicated or, like, especially for mobile, but in theory, we could add paying bolt 12 a lot easier.

1:42:01

It's just like, you know, I haven't I don't know. I haven't had the time to get it working. Like,

1:42:07

it breaks a lot of the assumptions we made inside the wallet for, like, everything not being being able to pay multiple like, multiple times. So we'd have to, like, do some big refactors in the code, but, you know, in theory, we could do it.

1:42:21

Awesome.

1:42:22

Someone someone mentioned someone mentioned splicing. That's

1:42:27

another thing that we would be basically waiting on LDK for,

1:42:31

but I I I think it would be great. Again, you know, Phoenix is doing such a good job.

1:42:35

I I do I do like that there's, you know, there's basically one big channel,

1:42:40

and it just makes it makes a a lot more sense. I feel like it's easier to to explain to a user,

1:42:46

which is exciting from from my perspective.

1:42:51

Yep. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I love yeah. Splicing is like getting pretty close in LDK. They just merged the,

1:42:58

basically like the negotiation protocol of the transaction. Now it's just like they just need to do, like, the opening of the channel part. So it should be pretty soon,

1:43:06

hopefully.

1:43:08

Awesome.

1:43:10

Someone mentioned said, do something to help poor people.

1:43:14

Uh-huh. You even care? Yeah. Do I do I even get one one feedback that we get, you know, when we're we're sitting in our ivory tower in our,

1:43:22

first world luxury, is

1:43:26

that, Tether

1:43:30

is a big deal to a lot of people around the world,

1:43:34

and it's tough for me because I don't deal with it day to day. I don't have anybody in my life that I'm, like, you know, doing remittances to.

1:43:42

And so feedback along those lines of, like, what are they actually trying to accomplish? You know, are they

1:43:48

are people walking around with, you know, a bunch of Tether in a cuss self custodial wallet?

1:43:53

Do you have a bunch of Tether on Binance? Does it never, like, really rest anywhere? They just use it as a a transport mechanism for USD value, and then they, like, swap it to a local currency right away?

1:44:04

That kind of feedback would be very helpful for me right now because we're, you know, we're definitely looking into, you know, how do we how do we serve those people.

1:44:12

Awesome.

1:44:16

Cool. I also, I'm having

1:44:21

I'm having Hazard on, dispatch next week to talk about blossom.

1:44:25

Oh, yeah.

1:44:26

That that's a product of Madera. Right?

1:44:29

Mhmm. Project that came out of Madera blossom is, like, this idea

1:44:33

of distributed storage using a noster

1:44:37

spec. Is my understanding correct?

1:44:40

Yeah. It's I mean, it's also I mean, the the the dream, right, is to

1:44:46

I mean, we we were talking about blaster before. Right? And I I think it's funny when when Nostra like, Nostra is all about, like, making, like,

1:44:54

dumb trade offs, doing the the dumb simple thing because it actually works, instead of having, like, the the the perfect galaxy brain distributed network

1:45:05

that nobody uses because it's too complicated or or it's fragile in some sense. Right? So, like, people use,

1:45:12

like, CDNs all the time on Nostr to host images. You know? Nostr has not solved,

1:45:18

like, some decentralized hosting. We don't put media on our relays.

1:45:24

We just put them on Amazon, basically. And,

1:45:27

and so, you know, there's this dream.

1:45:30

If you had a job before, even Noss has this really great essay on why IPFS doesn't work.

1:45:36

But there's this dream of having this, like, decentralized,

1:45:40

you know, ho media hosting. And so how do you do that?

1:45:44

And, yeah, there was a there I remember

1:45:49

I don't wanna take any more credit for this than, than, than I don't wanna take any credit for this, but I want, I want to brag that I was, I was

1:45:58

at a barbecue in Madeira. So every week in Madeira on a Friday, we would do a demo day. People would show off what they're working on.

1:46:06

And, and then we do a barbecue offer, and there's a lot of good conversations because we just saw so much stuff, and we're, like, started talking to each other about what we're working on.

1:46:15

And I I, I, walked up to to Stew

1:46:20

and Hazard talking,

1:46:23

about this, like, blossom idea,

1:46:26

and and the idea is is it was like, is this too dumb?

1:46:31

It was Hazard's question. It's like, is this is this too simple? Because all he's doing is basically

1:46:37

is basically using using CDNs. Still using Amazon,

1:46:43

but making the content hash addressable.

1:46:46

So the default is a hash,

1:46:48

And then there's also, you get better discoverability

1:46:53

because you have Nostra as this discoverability layer. And also you have,

1:46:58

you reduce the search space because when you publish some media, you also

1:47:03

have the the the pub key of the person publishing.

1:47:06

Yeah. Because that's one of the big problems with IPFS is you

1:47:10

have hash based, you know, content addressing.

1:47:12

So you you you know the exact hash of the thing, and that's enough to to find the thing theoretically,

1:47:18

but you end up searching this huge, sprawling, decentralized network and taking, you know, days to find the file.

1:47:25

And so if if Nostra can just say, like, yes. You know, here is somebody published this at this CDN,

1:47:33

and if it doesn't exist on that CDN anymore,

1:47:37

then because you have the hash, Nautilus is gonna help you, you know, with Blossom

1:47:42

find the fallback. And it's pretty simple of a concept,

1:47:47

but, it might just be he also has, like, an API for,

1:47:52

you know, uploading and listing files and stuff like that. But

1:47:56

it's a pretty simple idea, but it really might just be enough to do to add just enough decentralization

1:48:02

to, like, CDN based image hosting into, like, we we can live in this beautiful

1:48:07

world. I'm so I'm so stoked on it, and it was just so cool to, like, be around those guys when they're coming up with those ideas.

1:48:20

Yeah. I mean so I'm gonna have them on Wednesday, 1700 UTC,

1:48:25

same time as this rep. Should I should I have anyone else join me for it? I feel like it's a little is it a little bit above my grade? I think I can handle it on my own. Right?

1:48:35

I don't yeah. I don't I mean, what is your pay grade? I don't know. No one knows my pay grade. My pay grade is private.

1:48:41

Stew would be good to get on as well. Who the fuck is Stew? The satellite

1:48:45

satellite

1:48:47

Dude, he's had some bangers of episodes,

1:48:50

last few weeks. He should have a lot of stuff.

1:48:53

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. After we introduce

1:48:56

me to Stu, maybe I'll have him join me. Him, Hazard and Stu were working on,

1:49:01

also, like, a Discord alternative on on Noster.

1:49:05

Oh, yeah. Maybe I'll have Stu on too. Can you introduce me?

1:49:09

We're talking about business on air. That sounds good. So I'm gonna have Hazard on next week, Wednesday, 1700 UTC, and hopefully Stu as well.

1:49:18

And then, I have Will from Domus Day the week after that. Also, 1700

1:49:24

UTC. I really like 1700 UTC.

1:49:27

And sorry if you work a Fiat job in America, and that's, like, dead center in the middle of your workday.

1:49:35

I I just like it. It's good it's a good time to rip.

1:49:38

Guys, I don't know if you saw. We are officially an hour and 55 minutes

1:49:44

into this rip, which means it's ride or dies only have made it this far.

1:49:51

I don't did you see my notes about sailor and open source devs?

1:49:55

Oh, yeah.

1:49:57

Should we talk about that real quick? Or I mean, because you guys weren't aware. I don't think of any of that.

1:50:03

I did not see these notes. I've heard that that that Matt said something about Sailor, but I don't know. There's, like, all these conspiracy theories. Like, I really don't have much to gain from talking about this publicly,

1:50:14

except that I just feel like it should be public. I mean, I've sat on it for about 4 months now because this was prelaunch ETFs when this happened.

1:50:24

And everyone just keeps asking me for a source. Give me a source like SourceSeagulls.

1:50:29

Like, I'm the cofounder of OpenSats. Like, I'm in charge of trying to get as many donations as possible to open source developers.

1:50:37

What source. I'm the fucking source. You know? And, like, you don't have to believe me. That's fine. But, like, I felt like it needed to be public. And,

1:50:46

I'm very grateful for Bitwise that Bitwise decided to support

1:50:50

a split donation between OpenSats, Brink, and HRF,

1:50:54

10% for 10 years split evenly.

1:50:57

I'm very grateful to Van Eck, who's just supporting Brink. Like, I don't you don't have to donate to OpenSats. Like, I'm not I don't make any money when Open Sats gets donations. I do it all for free.

1:51:09

But, like, there's a shit ton of ETFs. It's like, is it not curious to anybody why there aren't more ETFs that are supporting open source developers?

1:51:19

And I I don't think I don't think anyone should be forced to support open source.

1:51:25

Like, if you don't wanna make a donation, don't make a donation.

1:51:28

That's fine. But when you're actively out there, stop trying to convince other people not to donate to open source.

1:51:36

That's a fucking problem, and it's frustrating. It's incredibly frustrating.

1:51:40

What is the what would the reasoning be? Why would Saylor prefer an ETF to not support open source?

1:51:47

The the most frustrating part of the whole thing is, like, if you just ask Sailor, he will tell you that he doesn't think you should support open source developers. Like, it's not like,

1:51:57

I don't I don't I don't think it's something he would deny. I think it's something he would proudly encourage you not to support open source developers.

1:52:04

And it's because he comes from the ossification side.

1:52:07

And I'm not a guy who's, like, super pro soft fork. Like, I hated on Twitter when people were like, these 10 people agree with the soft fork. Like, I'm gonna go for a soft fork. Like, I think we should be very deliberate with consensus changes.

1:52:20

And it should it take a lot of review. It should take I mean, Bitcoin's beautiful in that way. It it does take a lot of of momentum and motivation to do any kind of real changes to Bitcoin.

1:52:32

So so the idea would be if you have, like, a bunch a bunch of, like, protocol devs with cushy salaries sitting around bored that's They're gonna, like, dev up soft forks. Mhmm. Yeah. But, like, OpenSats has a 100 plus grants out, and none of them are focused on Softworks. Like, I mean, I think the XZ tools,

1:52:50

issue was, like, a maintainer that was was

1:52:55

absentee. Right? It's like maintenance is important.

1:52:58

Maintenance is important. Code review is important. Like, all these things are incredibly important. Like, we're securing 1,000,000,000,000 of dollars on Bitcoin. But Bitcoin's a $1,000,000,000,000 asset right now.

1:53:07

Like, a a we you have to support the open source contributors that keep all this shit secure.

1:53:13

And I've dedicated a large portion of my life to to making that a reality for free.

1:53:19

And I'm not I don't want credit for it. Like, I don't need credit for it. But, like, if someone's out out there actively attacking

1:53:27

that mission, right, and actively stopping that mission,

1:53:30

that's incredibly frustrating. And people say, like, oh,

1:53:34

like, what kind of threat could Sailor make to an ETF? Like, I don't, you know, I don't

1:53:40

I don't think Sailor has I owning more Bitcoin doesn't give you more ability to change the protocol or do anything with Bitcoin. That's the beauty of Bitcoin.

1:53:50

But that doesn't mean that just some random suit isn't gonna choose not to support open source developers because Saleor tells them not to.

1:53:58

And people should just question this. People should ask, you know, what the fuck is going on? Like, if it's purely because of, like, he's

1:54:06

in favor of Osmification, like,

1:54:09

I think that's like if you believe that, like, I have a lot less respect for him because, like,

1:54:14

he should, like, he's been running a software company for 30 years. He should understand like 99%

1:54:19

of like Bitcoin development is not working on soft works. It's like

1:54:23

literally everything else maintaining code and

1:54:26

wallets and, you know, everything that, like, you know, people do. Software anywhere.

1:54:30

Yeah. Exactly. Like, you know, he's he's been running one for 30 years, but,

1:54:36

they're like that that get that just makes me think, okay. It's much more likely, you know, he's he's just a bad actor and, like, you know, I mean, he he his company is, like, right down the street from the CIA and stuff. And he actively,

1:54:49

like, says on CNBC and stuff, like, you know, Bitcoin is not money. The dollar is money. Bitcoin is just a store value and stuff like that. Like, I think it's it's more he's trying to, like, subvert Bitcoin

1:54:58

and, you know

1:55:00

I just wanna be clear

1:55:03

that I haven't made these acqusums. This was that was Ben's words.

1:55:07

The I want I also wanna be clear that for the last 3 months, like, I don't have a personal relationship with Sailor, and, like, that is fine. So, like, I haven't talked to Sailor specifically, but, like, I have made attempts to back channel and privately talk about this stuff and because I don't think it benefits anyone. Like, me going public with it doesn't increase support for open source developers.

1:55:29

Like, I don't think it does. I think it creates more drama and more bullshit and more controversy.

1:55:35

And, like, it was not my goal. That that was never

1:55:39

the ideal situation. But I just felt like, at this point, like, it needed to be public.

1:55:48

And that's why I made it public. I did post it to Noster only. I think it's interesting that

1:55:55

people are talking about it that pretend that Noster doesn't exist.

1:56:00

But I'm glad the conversations are happening, and people should just ask him. Just

1:56:06

like he's gonna hide from it. Instead of making you ask him. My instead of making an excuse in my comments

1:56:12

for him and were calling me out and say, first of all, this has absolutely nothing to do with 1031. Completely fucking unrelated. And I will say that the gents at 1031

1:56:23

are incredibly, they're just amazing people that they're fine with

1:56:30

they're an up ship all the fucking and oftentimes, they support me. Like, when I deleted my Twitter, they completely supported it, which was impressive. Even though that was obviously

1:56:41

bad for 1031 that I deleted my Twitter.

1:56:45

But 1031 is completely unrelated to this. This is more of an open SaaS thing, and this is is is just frustrating to see. And I I would just once again ask you, like,

1:56:55

VanEck, Bitwise are supporting open source developers.

1:56:59

Why aren't more ETFs doing it? It's tax deductible.

1:57:05

I don't have to do any they don't even have to have Bitcoin.

1:57:08

They can be Fiat Maxis and donate Fiat,

1:57:12

and they get a tax deduction, and they get to help the the the devs that secure their fucking chain.

1:57:18

Would like, why is that not the case? Like, ask yourself that question.

1:57:24

And I'm not gonna name the specific ETF,

1:57:28

that I know this happened for because, like, I'm not gonna air that one

1:57:33

that's that's trying to

1:57:36

be deliberate about it, if that makes any sense.

1:57:41

Yeah. I think the only thing that there was confusion on was, like, whether or not it was a joke

1:57:46

and whether or not, like, there was some confusion around, like, which ETF. Like, like, people people were thinking bit like, wait. I thought Bitwise did Bitwise or can act. Yeah. Bitwise I think that's the most thing I saw.

1:57:58

Are legit, and they are supporting open source contributors. And they will continue to support open source contributor. Hopefully, that item fucked that up.

1:58:05

Yeah.

1:58:06

No.

1:58:07

Hong's dope. Like, his his reasoning for it just, like, makes the most amount of sense. It's like, look. You're putting 1,000,000,000 of dollars into this thing. Like, we need to protect it,

1:58:15

and we need to fund the protection of it, basically.

1:58:19

And if you're not doing that, you're not being good stewards of the ETF.

1:58:23

Yep. Yeah. And it's like, you know, you you have, like, a gold ETF, but you put it in, like, a $40 safe.

1:58:29

It's like, no. No, you should have a very expensive safe to store your gold. Like, same thing, like, you know, this is part of securing that Bitcoin is, you know, you could have the best hardware wallets and HSMs in the world, but,

1:58:40

you know, if there's a consensus bug or something breaks in bitcoin or people stop working on it, then

1:58:45

that bitcoin might not be as valuable and

1:58:47

this is a way to ensure that.

1:58:50

Exactly. Okay. I'm glad we covered that. I felt like

1:58:54

we should talk about it at the least. I'm sure I'm I'm gonna have to talk about it in our HR as well.

1:59:02

But I'm glad people are having the conversation having the fucking conversation. Just ask them. And, like, to all the people that are like, oh, what kind of influence can Saylor have on people?

1:59:11

Like, oh, this is Bitcoin. Like, he has no influence. It's like, yeah. Well, you keep softballing him questions because he has influence and you wanna go in his fucking yachts. So don't give me that fucking bullshit.

1:59:22

I don't need to be on a sailor yacht. I'm cool with that. Like, he can have his 7 yachts. I don't have to participate in that.

1:59:29

You you should join Twitter, get a blue check, and then ask him that question.

1:59:33

Yeah. I mean, Tony, you have a blue check. You can ask him the question if you want.

1:59:38

He actually wanna be invited on the yacht. Sorry. I wanna be invited on the yacht.

1:59:42

Udemy is hoping to get investment.

1:59:46

That's why I thought I got the blue check. I will say if you wanna talk about incentives, like, I we can pretty much guarantee that 10:30 one's not gonna get fucking investment from sailor, any sailor, adjacent people.

1:59:58

Like, I get I literally get no benefit out of making this.

2:00:02

I it is After over it, you can go fuck yourself. Like, I really don't give a shit.

2:00:09

It is it is cool. I mean, I I I don't know exactly what it's like to be a high net worth individual, but

2:00:15

the the idea that there here's this thing. Like, let's say you buy, like, you know, $10,000,000

2:00:21

of Apple stock. Like, how are you gonna improve that bag? Like, you're gonna, like,

2:00:26

you know, talk about it, if people ask you on, you know, maybe do you know, try to be an influencer,

2:00:34

you know, buy an I every new iPhone that comes out. But, like, with Bitcoin, like, you know, I've been to, you know, a lot of developer focused conferences, and you'll be in a room where it feels like, hey. Like,

2:00:44

it feels like 25% of the people who could, you know, possibly,

2:00:49

you know, write meaningful code for Bitcoin Core are here right now. You know? Like,

2:00:54

it it it it is a relatively small community,

2:00:58

and we're building so much cool shit. Like,

2:01:01

we're making so many important improvements

2:01:05

in how, you know, Bitcoin is secured, how it how we how we spend it, you know,

2:01:11

all sorts of, all across all the layers.

2:01:15

So much good work is being done by a relatively small number of people.

2:01:20

And so if you have the money to support a few more of those people, you're actually making a pretty big impact on, like, the value proposition of Bitcoin,

2:01:29

which which is awesome. I mean, I also want, you know, for profit companies to have, like, you know, just a good good old fashioned capitalism

2:01:36

reasons.

2:01:37

Yeah. That's what mutinius.

2:01:39

Yeah.

2:01:41

A false focused capitalist company. Alright.

2:01:45

That's fucking dope. That's really fucking cool.

2:01:50

Okay. Yeah. I mean, Sailor's official response so far today was, the big

2:01:55

point is top dog, and then you put AI generated

2:01:59

dog image wearing a Bitcoin collar,

2:02:03

which I really I just really I think that was a really compelling

2:02:07

response. Guys, this has been fun.

2:02:13

I look forward to kicking it in person. Hopefully

2:02:16

I think you're the top

2:02:18

dog. I'm not. Fuck that shit, Jake.

2:02:20

If you're like, oh, yo, dude. He, like, he, like, quit Twitter, and he, like, went to Nasr where there's 200 people because of engagement. Like, he's trying to get like,

2:02:30

yeah. Okay. Like, are you Total top dog move. Like, you fucking retard. Okay.

2:02:36

Guys, final thoughts.

2:02:38

Was we'll start with Ben. Ben, final thoughts.

2:02:44

Find open source devs. Try out me and you

2:02:48

I don't know. Try out me and you plus in our lightning address stuff. Give us feedback. Otherwise, I don't know.

2:02:53

Stay pretty.

2:02:55

Stay pretty. I love it. Thanks, Ben. Paul, final thoughts.

2:02:59

Yeah. Pay pay for MeetMe Plus. Make make capitalism work.

2:03:05

Only you can prevent copy open

2:03:08

source softworks by paying for beauty plus.

2:03:13

I love it.

2:03:15

Thanks, Paul. Tony, final thoughts?

2:03:17

Yeah. No. Just just appreciation for you, Odell, Ben, and Paul. It's,

2:03:23

it's been about a year since we started, and it's been a wild year.

2:03:27

And, yeah, couldn't do it without the support of, like, everyone, 1031,

2:03:31

Nostra Community, open source software like Bitcoin, Primal,

2:03:38

LDK, Fediment. Like, basically, our entire stack

2:03:42

is software that we didn't make. So we just put it together. So, like, def definitely a huge appreciation

2:03:49

to everyone that supports that that mission and and and and writes the code that,

2:03:55

that we can use. So, yeah, appreciate your student all around.

2:04:01

Thank you, Tony.

2:04:03

Like I said, I look forward to kicking you with the guys in person hopefully sometime soon. I'm sure I'll have you on dispatch again

2:04:11

relatively soon. Yeah. This was a great rip.

2:04:15

It would be who made to shout out our top supporters,

2:04:19

this week. You know, dispatch is a 100% audience funded. We have no ads or sponsors.

2:04:27

So we rely on Bitcoin donations either through podcasting 2 point o apps or through the Zap stream. And now I put them all together. So we have at Eric 99 with 50,000 sats, at 8 Myth Rander with 18,000 sats, and at d b cooper with 10,000 sats. Thank you, freaks who continue to support the show.

2:04:44

And thank you, freaks who joined the live chat.

2:04:47

You guys make this special. You know, I know 1700 UTC might not be the best time for some of you guys, but the fact that you joined the live chat, really does make you unique. So thank you. And last but not least, always, you know, share the podcast with friends, family.

2:05:03

It's available in every podcast app.

2:05:06

It's available on YouTube until we get banned.

2:05:09

It's available on Twitter, and

2:05:13

just subscribing to it, leaving reviews, stuff like that does help. So thank you, guys.

2:05:20

Love you all. Thank you.

2:05:29

Thank y'all.

2:05:31

Nice to play with y'all today.

2:05:33

Good seeing you again.

2:05:35

Yeah. We're gonna do another 7 point

2:10:38

Love you, freaks. That was The Allman Brothers,

2:10:43

singing Rambling Man 1982

2:10:48

at Florida State University. To all the freaks who wanna know

2:10:52

what track was played, I'm gonna try and let you know.

2:10:56

I love you all. As I mentioned earlier, I'm gonna have Hazard on to talk blossom

2:11:04

UTC. I'm gonna have Damas

2:11:07

not Damas. I'm gonna have jb 55 Will on to talk Damas and Noster

2:11:12

on the 23rd, also at 1700 UTC.

2:11:15

And, I might add some shows in between there. Not sure yet.

2:11:21

We'll do it as we come, but I appreciate you all.

2:11:25

Let's fucking do this thing. It's gonna take

2:11:32

visuals free

2:11:35

for this movement to succeed. And,

2:11:40

it's with pride and honor that, I'm a part of it with y'all,

2:11:44

but it takes you, it takes me, takes every one of us to make it a reality. So appreciate you guys. Stay on list access.