0:03

Key and top issue for our small business owners. According to our latest CNBC SurveyMonkey Small Business Confidence Index, only 1 in 4 now say that inflation has peaked. That's down from nearly a third last quarter. Meanwhile, 3 quarters say they still expect inflation to continue to rise. That's also up from 69%

0:21

last quarter. More than 1 in 3 said their, that inflation rather is their biggest threat to business right now. That is 3 times as many who say consumer demand, labor shortages, supply chain, or interest rates are their top threats to business.

1:08

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another CIL dispatch,

1:13

the interactive live show focused on actionable Bitcoin and Freedom Tech discussion.

1:19

That intro was completely unrelated to the show as always,

1:23

but will make a great time stamp

1:26

in the future. People are waking up to the fact

1:29

that their money fucking sucks and that inflation

1:33

will probably spread. It's pretty crazy watching normies kind of come to that conclusion.

1:41

And we live in a unfortunate or fortunate position

1:46

where we kinda kinda observe that from afar and see it unfold.

1:50

But I have a great guest here, today,

1:55

mister Jeff Jeff g,

1:58

Nostra contributor, and recently has been focused

2:02

on making our DMs better.

2:07

How's it going, Jeff?

2:09

He's going great. Thanks for having me on. It's kind of long time listener, first time caller sort of situation, so it's great.

2:16

Let's fucking go.

2:18

So, Jeff, I don't know where we should start.

2:23

I kinda like starting with why Noster.

2:28

Like, why do you why do you even care about Noster? Like, time is scarce. Time is probably the only thing more scarce than Bitcoin.

2:35

Why are you so focused on Noster?

2:39

Yeah. So I found Noster,

2:42

you know, kind of shortly after the kind of Jack announcement, giving away a bunch of Bitcoin to fiat JAF.

2:48

And I remember seeing it and kind of

2:50

going, okay. That looks really interesting. Like, look into that a bit later.

2:54

At the time, though, I was actually in the middle of shutting down, kinda more traditional web 2 startup that I had started, you know, a couple years prior

3:01

and, you know, just for having run out of money. And so I was like, okay. We come back to this, but, certainly not right right now.

3:08

So about a month later, kinda mid January last year, I started looking into it. And,

3:13

I, you know, I spent the first couple of days kinda just digging through everything, tried to build a real simple little client, you know, got everything set up. And and then, like, I had this little, you know, like, splinter in my mind sort of situation where it was like,

3:24

there's something here that, like, doesn't

3:27

like, sort of making my Spidey sense tingle. And, like, the more I dug into it, the more I was like, no. I must be missing like, this is this is huge. Like, this is gonna be absolutely the entire Internet all over again. And then I was like, no. I must be missing something. Like, that's insane.

3:40

And so I started looking around for people I could, like, you know, call and go, you know, hey. You're another developer. Like, what do you think of this thing?

3:47

And one of the very first people I found was Pablo.

3:50

And so I jumped on the phone with Pablo, and it was supposed to be, like,

3:54

a 20 minute call or something. And an hour and 45 minutes later, you know, having both, like, yelled yelled ourselves hoarse at each other in excitement. We were both, like, okay. So you're seeing the same thing? Okay. We're not crazy? Okay. Well, at least we're the same crazy if nothing else. So at that point, it was like, this is definitely gonna be a huge thing, and no one can see it yet. And so I just happened to be in that transition period where I was starting to go, what am I gonna do next? And it was just like, this is definitely what I'm gonna do next.

4:21

So I just jumped straight in and started building stuff full time.

4:25

Badass. I mean, Pablo is a fucking legend.

4:28

Yeah.

4:29

Yeah. It's funny. We've got, like, a ton of weird,

4:32

coincidence things. You know, he spent a bunch of time in Blacksburg, Virginia, where I went to university, and we both climb. And so there was, like, all these little things where it was, like, wait, what? How? Okay. But you're from Argentina, and I'm from Virginia. And this is so strange.

4:47

Well, that's awesome.

4:51

Yeah. Freaks, I I mean, I see in the live chat that there was a little bit technical difficulties.

4:56

So the title that you might see on YouTube,

5:00

is incorrect. We're with Jeff. We are not with Ben Arck of last week,

5:04

but I do appreciate the people who joined us last week.

5:09

The Ben Arck episode was good as well. So Did you listen to that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you haven't listened to it, definitely go listen to it. It was my first public socialism argument that I've ever had,

5:20

but besides that, I enjoyed it thoroughly. I feel I feel like that is probably the right person to have that first public argument with. It had to be done. Right? It had to be done.

5:29

It had to be done. I appreciate Ben. He's he's a great person,

5:33

and a great contributor. So so, Jeff, a lot of your focus has been on

5:39

the actual name of this episode is no privacy, no freedom. I would go further, and I would say no privacy, no freedom, no freedom, no wealth.

5:47

I think people that are focused on

5:50

on just being as wealthy as possible,

5:53

don't realize the connection between,

5:57

first of all, freedom and then the connection

5:59

down the line of privacy in terms of freedom.

6:03

So a lot of your focus on Nostr has been on the privacy side, and I really wanna talk about,

6:09

your new DM spec, for Nostr. So right now, the way Nostr DMs work, they are encrypted,

6:17

but they're encrypted with your single public key that is known to the world.

6:25

So anyone who has that public key, which is everyone,

6:28

can just, like, sign into a NotSure client, see exactly who you messaged,

6:33

and how often you messaged them. And then the secondary

6:36

issue is if that private key

6:39

ever gets exposed of either participant,

6:42

then the entire message history, is also exposed, which is just bad. That's not Really bad. Yeah.

6:50

To the point where I noticed you do the same exact thing I do. Whereas as soon as you receive a DM on Noster,

6:57

you just send a signal link. It's like, message me on signal,

7:01

which is a 100% what I do as well. So how are we how are we solving that? And by we, I mean, you. Like, what is the plan here?

7:08

Yeah. We're looking at. I guess before I jump into that, like, I'll jump I'll go back just a little bit to your, like, earlier statement. You know, like, without privacy, you can't have freedom. Without freedom, you know, you can't have wealth.

7:18

That actually was something that stuck with me really early.

7:21

You know, I got my hands on a copy of, like, Rich Dad Poor Dev when I was a kid. And, like, the only takeaway I took away from that was, like, actually, wealth is being able to do whatever you want whenever you wanna do it. And, like, nothing else matters.

7:33

And so I think, like, that that sort of has always been in my head, and and I think it's a huge part of why I'm really into Bitcoin and and then really into Nasr and and, like, why I'm not out trying to start another Web 2 startup and, you know, do things like that. Right? Like, I'd much rather spend my time building this sort of stuff.

7:51

With DMs, so, yeah, it's it's kind of always been a known issue. Right? Like, even from the very beginning, it was just like, yes. This is a,

7:59

very naive, simple way to encrypt content.

8:03

You know, when fiatjaf wrote the original spec,

8:07

it was never meant to be perfect. It was never

8:10

advertised as being perfect by any stretch.

8:12

You know, and, like, people wrote some, like, funny little bots and things that would just report on, like, who's DM ing who because, like you said, you could see all the metadata about, you know, what those conversations were.

8:23

The NIPO 4 spec as well, which is the original DM spec,

8:27

like, the encryption it uses is, like, a pretty simple, you know, asymmetric key cryptography. Like, it doesn't try to hide how long the message is. It doesn't really do anything fancy

8:37

around, you know, trying to make that encryption super strong. It's literally just like, okay. Just, you know, do one pass on it and then, you know, stick it in the content, and it's good.

8:47

So, you know, knowing that we always had this problem,

8:50

a lot of people have, I mean, 1, talked about this,

8:53

and 2, there was a a group kind of, last autumn that took on, you know, just trying to improve the encryption,

9:00

algorithm that we were using. So they built out NIP 44, which is a much stronger,

9:05

like, encryption for the actual message content. But that actually doesn't talk about at all, you know, okay. How do you use that encryption scheme with something else to make DMs more private and actually hide the metadata and make sure that, you know, content can't be seen, like you said, if someone gets a hold of,

9:25

your private key or your, you know, the other person in the conversation's private key.

9:30

So that was kind of a big step forward in the sense that, okay, we've got this much better way to encrypt things. But then again, you know, there weren't really any, strong contenders for how to do, you know, properly private DMs.

9:42

There was one that actually was, merged just, like, a couple of weeks ago. Maybe it was last week, in fact, like, NIP

9:48

17, which Vitor from Amethyst put out there. And that actually uses the the newer, stronger encryption

9:54

and uses gift wraps, which, you know, is basically just a way to put an event inside of another event inside of another event so that it hides all that metadata.

10:02

The problem there still is if you lose one of the keys,

10:05

everybody can read, you know, going forward and going backwards, in time, all the messages between 2 people. And people don't realize how bad that is.

10:14

Yeah. I mean It's like like if an individual participant is compromised at any time in the future

10:19

Right. The malicious actor has everything.

10:23

Everything. And if the malicious actor gets that private key without anybody realizing, they can just quietly read everything going forward into the future forever as well. And backwards into the past, however long. Right. Right. You have no idea if that has actually happened to anybody's keys. You know what I mean? Like, there's there's no way to know that for sure. So,

10:41

I think we take it like, we kinda take for granted at this point that we've got, like, most messaging is end to end encrypted.

10:48

And the way that that was mostly handled is because we've had these centralized trusting that, like, yes,

10:53

they're using the, you know, right encryption. And for the most part, they're all using signals encryption algorithm. You know, the guys that built the signal, protocol

11:04

ended up, you know, basically selling or licensing that to Facebook and Google and and, like, all the other services started using a variant of that same protocol.

11:14

So that was basically what I you know, I kept hearing, okay, we need to fix DMs. And I kept going, okay, somebody smarter than me is gonna figure this out. Like, this is not you know, this is above my pay grade. Like, I'm not a cryptographer. I'm a, you know, mostly a web developer, client developer. And so I was just like, somebody will solve this. This is, like, soon we'll have a a fix. And it kept not happening. It kept not happening. And I kept listening to the, you know, Bitcoin review podcast and kept listening to NVK, you know, moaning about it and, like, saying we need, you know, double I was just on that.

11:42

Yeah. Well, he probably didn't hopefully mention it this week.

11:46

You did? Oh, did he? Okay. Yeah. Well, it's still not list it's still not out there merged yet, so, I suppose you can still moan about it.

11:55

But, yeah, it was, like, one of those things. Like, I was listening to the podcast on a run, you know, whatever 2 weeks ago and was just like, for god's sakes, like, somebody needs to sort this out already.

12:04

And so I got home from the run and was like, I'm gonna look into this. You know, like, how hard is signal? Like, everybody just keeps saying you need a centralized server in order for it to work. Like, there's no way to do it on Nostr, but no one's given me, like, an actual real, you know, run through that makes sense.

12:18

So I just started looking at the signal docs and started peeling it apart and going, okay. How does this work? How does this piece work? You know, where is the actual central server

12:27

really required here? And, like, can we adapt it a bit to make it work on Nostra? And turns out it's actually completely possible and actually not even that hard.

12:37

Syncing devices gets a lot more complicated, but, you know, for a DM spec that actually

12:43

does properly encrypt between 2 parties,

12:46

you know, the double ratchet DM is is absolutely possible. And so that's what the spec that I wrote, you know, a couple of weeks ago was about.

12:52

So you actually decided to be the change you wanted to see in the world? Exactly.

12:57

Someone had to do it finally to get NVK to stop talking about it. So, it turned out it was gonna be me.

13:02

It would have been in fairness, actually, like, it it it, you know, it was one of those things that's, like, pretty above my pay grade. Like, some of the cryptography stuff in there took me a little while to get my head around.

13:12

I had definitely a couple of great conversations with folks like Pablo and and Max Hillebrand about, you know, how the pieces fit together and stuff. And,

13:21

once you kinda crack it in your head and you understand how the thing moves like a machine, then all of a sudden it makes sense. But, if you try to just look at it on the surface, it's, it is quite complicated.

13:31

So, I mean, let's talk about this.

13:34

A big issue you mentioned. So so the goal the end goal

13:38

is DMs

13:41

that no one no one can easily see the meta metadata for. Right? So so they can't easily see how often I'm messaging, who I'm messaging.

13:52

Yep.

13:53

And then also that if my key gets compromised,

13:57

they can see past conversations. Correct?

13:59

Or future conversations.

14:01

So there's, there were kinda 3 main things that I, like, had in mind, and it was basically those three things. It's like, one, all the metadata has to be hidden.

14:09

That was pretty well figured out with gift wraps already, so that part wasn't so difficult. You just had to sort of be aware of where you were, you know, putting data and and make sure that you weren't accidentally leaving something out in the open.

14:24

The forward secrecy is very badly named, but, like, forward secrecy is being able to read stuff into the past. So if you, you know, leak a key, if somebody can read all your past messages, that's forward secret compromise.

14:38

Post compromise secrecy is when somebody gets your key, and then they can read messages into the future. Okay. And so That's confusing. What I wanted was basically both of those things to be solved as well as the metadata to be hidden.

14:51

Forward secrecy is actually for the past.

14:53

Yes. Yeah. It's terrible name. It like, the convention is I don't know why it's like that. But yeah.

14:58

Okay.

15:00

So it's supposed to accomplish all of these things.

15:03

Yes. And the way it does it is by basically using one of Nastro's superpowers to me, which is, like, we've got an almost infinite number space

15:12

for public private key pairs. And so it doesn't matter that we can just, like, we could basically use as many key pairs as we want and just throw them away as we please, and we're never gonna run out of key pairs. And so

15:23

the way we do this for, you know, this protocol is, you know, with some really fun, clever cryptography called a Diffie Hellman key exchange, which basically

15:33

is a a cool way to say, if we know each other's public keys, we can come up with a shared secret without having to do anything else,

15:41

you know, without having to have a a third number involved or anything.

15:45

So you use kind of a combination of Diffie Hellman

15:48

plus a bunch of ephemeral keys, and you create a machine that has basically 3 separate,

15:54

kind of, chains of keys.

15:57

And those 3 sets of keys, you know, are that forms the double ratchet. You know, one set of keys is sort of run off of 1 ratchet, or 2 of the chains is 1 run off of 1 ratchet, and the one main chain is on another ratchet that's totally separate. And those ratchets, you know, one is for forward secrecy, and one is for post compromise secrecy.

16:18

Okay.

16:19

So you, like, actually were able to try and accomplish this problem because you had so much previous work that you were able to build on top of.

16:28

Yes. There is there is like I will be very quick to, like, point out I did nothing

16:33

new here that is, like, of any supreme difficulty. I just went, okay. How does the signal protocol work?

16:40

How does Nostra work? How do these things how can these things work together in a way that, you know, accomplishes these goals?

16:46

And I think, like, most of the people that had, you know, gone around saying, like, you can't use a signal protocol because it needs a centralized server, had never really looked into it.

16:56

And, you know, it turns out, yes, you've got to tweak a few things, and it gets a little more complicated for sure. But it's it's no, like, new cryptography or anything super difficult there. I mean, it helps that, like, now we have Noster, so you have, like, a

17:10

open permissionless

17:12

interoperable comms protocol

17:15

to actually handle the key exchange and stuff like that. Right? Exactly. And, actually, the identity system is one of the main things that signal, you know, their centralized server is there for, is to serve as the sort of source of truth for who's who's who. Right? And so that's another thing that just noster on its own as a network gives us. And so,

17:34

you know, you're like, okay. Don't need a centralized server for that. You know, we know each other's public keys.

17:40

And so from that starting point, you're already set up, ready, you know, to do this Diffie Hellman exchange.

17:45

Great. So, I mean, to me, there's, like, 2 main

17:50

friction points here. I mean, obviously, the first one is

17:54

actual client adoption because am I correct in assuming that

17:58

relays don't have to do anything different? So it just comes down to clients actually

18:04

adding the new standard.

18:06

Correct? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So relays, this is all just totally standard events. I mean, you wanna use all 3 relays,

18:13

and you wanna make sure that you're using the relays that a user tells you to use, you know, as they're, like, inbox relays. But, I mean, relays don't have to change anything themselves.

18:23

And then the second thing

18:26

is so, I mean, that's not on you. I mean, hopefully, we see client adoption.

18:31

Yeah. And, like, one of the things that I I instead of just writing the spec, I actually spent probably twice the amount of time, you know, on building a little demo app that would try to show people, you know, each step along the way, like, what's happening here,

18:43

so that, you know, there was a bit of code that could show people, okay. This is, like, how this thing gets implemented in in the hopes that, you know, we can get client developers to implement it faster.

18:53

Awesome.

18:56

But one yeah. One of the cool parts about Nasr is that we have many clients.

19:00

They're all run by different people. And,

19:05

as a result, they will merge things as they see fit, when they see fit, and,

19:11

these types of upgrades will take a little bit of time, I expect. I think right now, like, things happen a little bit quicker

19:17

because there's, like, a dozen people.

19:21

It's, like, not that many people. It's more than a dozen. I mean, open sense is a dozen. But yeah. 21 clients. But it's, like, 45 people.

19:30

And as a result, it goes a lot quicker. But over time, like, people should assume with Noster,

19:37

that these things will take time to roll out across many different clients.

19:42

And then the second big thing that I

19:45

and, also, like I mean, you say this above your pay grade. Like, I feel like this is way above my pay grade.

19:51

I just want privacy. I I want privacy in communications. I want financial privacy.

19:55

I think humans flourish under that environment.

20:01

One of the things that seems like a very basic concern with this implementation is

20:09

So, like, if I'm having a

20:12

and I think you kinda mentioned this. If I'm having, like, a private chat with you on Domus

20:17

and then I moved to Nostrudal, like, what happens with my ephemeral keys? Like, can I actually continue that conversation? Or is that a whole new session or something?

20:27

This is the tricky part. Yeah. This is actually what so I got that spec out last week. You know, I was kind of I kept trying to kind of make the point to people that, like, hey, this is, you know, step 1 of several.

20:39

You know, we we've got a little ways to go before we're gonna be ready to, like, properly implement something that feels like a modern amazing user experience. You know, like it feels when you use signal on your computer and then you pick up your phone and it's all synced up and ready to go. Right.

20:51

The syncing between devices and between clients,

20:55

so the best way to think about this is, the combination of a device and a client is a session. Right?

21:01

Right. So, you know, Damas on your phone, no Strudel on your computer, Primal on your phone,

21:07

those are 3 different sessions. Okay.

21:10

And so those that's sort of the atomic unit that you have to keep synced here.

21:15

The way that the keys work is that,

21:18

you're not, remember, you're not actually using your Nostra private keys to encrypt anything here.

21:23

The only thing you use those for at the very beginning is this initial Diffie Hellman key exchange

21:29

that gets you a shared secret key. And that shared secret key is sort of the, you know, first input to the ratchet machine.

21:36

You know, you stuff the token in the very top, you turn the ratchet, and then you turn the other ratchet once. Actually, you turn the other ratchet twice, and then you're ready to go.

21:44

Every time you introduce a new device client, you know, a new session,

21:50

you need to set that whole thing up again.

21:53

Now that only takes a fraction of a second to set up, you know, as a computer,

21:57

but it does mean that each of those device client combos

22:01

needs to keep track of its own set of keys. And that's where all of the kind of security in this comes from is that you use the keys, you decrypt the messages, you throw the keys away.

22:11

You know, they're sort of zeroed out like you don't want them anymore.

22:14

And in kind of a weird quirk, there's actually potentially a reason that you would want to

22:19

publicly publish those private keys,

22:22

those message keys later on. Because once you've decrypted the message, you wanna re encrypt it on the device in a different way.

22:31

Now I don't think we're there because it like, obviously, stuff is gets kept around on relays for a long time in a lot of cases. So we're not there yet, but,

22:39

there is some, like, weird stuff you can do that feels really,

22:43

wrong, but actually increases privacy and deniability over the long term.

22:47

But there's a bunch of preconditions. So, anyways, yes. The syncing part is the hardest part by far. And so what's gonna have to happen is that,

22:55

basically, your conversation will get broadcast

22:58

to multiple sessions, and each of those sessions will have their own sort of inbox.

23:03

And each of those sessions will handle decrypting that conversation and managing the content of that conversation separately.

23:10

And so, you know, there is

23:13

duplication there. There's chance for stuff to get kinda lost or messages to arrive out of order.

23:17

This protocol handles all that stuff just fine. Like, it will handle out of order messages. It'll handle missing messages just fine. But it it that sort of thing does make it very complicated for developers to put together.

23:28

It's a lot of moving parts.

23:30

Well, I mean, I think if we think about it from,

23:34

like, a user perspective, like, most users probably will not be using

23:41

separate sessions. And they might be

23:45

so am I correct that if

23:50

I'm using, like, Primal on desktop and Primal on phone, there's there's a 2 different sessions? Yes.

23:56

That could that's probably gonna happen all the fucking time.

24:00

Yes. Yeah. There there's gonna be some weirdness here. And, like, it's sort of like when you use session on desktop phone. Right? Like, you don't Right. Get your your past conversation history when you sync up to desktop, you know, the first time. You're just like, okay.

24:12

I've got a brand new thread here, and it just kinda starts in the middle. And then 2 days later, you've kinda forgotten that that was ever a problem because they're in sync and you've got history on both sides. But,

24:22

but, yeah, like, you don't get the like, you don't get to sync up past conversation history,

24:27

in a model like this because we don't have a centralized server.

24:30

But you'd still would future be

24:33

future would be the same?

24:35

Yeah. As you go forward, basically.

24:38

So the way this would work is, say, you've got Primal on desktop, Primal on your phone, and I'm using Domus, and I send you a message in the conversation on Domus. Domus knows,

24:49

based on, you know, some mechanism, which is what I'm still working on, but knows based on some mechanism

24:57

that you have these 2 sessions running, and it needs to send an encrypted version

25:02

to both of those sessions. Okay. And so it just it basically just takes the exact same message, encrypts it, you know, using the keys that it knows, you know, belong to each of those sessions, and then sends, you know, 2 events instead of 1.

25:15

And your inbox relays pick those up and and know which one is for which.

25:21

Right.

25:21

Okay.

25:22

And the reason I use Primal as the example is just because I I'm aware that they have a desktop and

25:30

and a mobile, app.

25:33

It it it is not specifically

25:36

focused on primal. It was just the easiest example I could think of.

25:41

I see Manimi.

25:45

M anime is actually probably how you're supposed to pronounce it. Sometimes one client has trouble syncing when another doesn't. This is why people may switch sessions.

25:54

I do think, like, right now right now, we're in the glory days of Nasr.

26:00

Like, people, will look back,

26:04

and, like, maybe it'll be like a sitcom about, like, the early days of Nastur and, like, everyone will be wearing, like, vibrant clothing and whatnot,

26:13

like we see with the eighties sitcoms now. But I think in the future,

26:18

and and one of the beauties of Noster and will continue to be one of the beauties of Noster, one of the key fundamentals

26:24

is that you can switch clients. Like, I think

26:27

that is a core foundational element. You know, people should shun any kind of

26:31

app or client, client, but I call it an app,

26:37

that that doesn't give you access to your end, so you can't easily switch.

26:42

But I do think that we are rare and we will continue to be more and more rare. This idea of the user,

26:50

the active user who is is using 6 different clients. Right? Like, I'm

26:56

I I use all these different clients. Like, we're we're not we're not gonna be when when we onboard a a 1000000000 people to Noster,

27:04

the overwhelming majority of them aren't gonna be using a shit ton of different clients. No. So I don't know if this is necessarily a problem that needs to be solved.

27:13

But it is a pain point in in this kind of spec. Right? Right. Right. And and look, I and I think I totally agree with you. Like, we are the definition of early adopters here. Like, we're the ones that want to tinker with as many possible things as possible.

27:26

We wanna be switching constantly between clients.

27:29

We're actually not even that bothered when, like, something goes totally wrong

27:32

and it nukes our relay list. Like, it's just like, oh, well, that was annoying, but whatever. The follow list is a big one for me. Yeah. Follow this is a bit more.

27:39

So many times.

27:41

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, I guess, like yeah. I think it's it's probably fair to say that, you know, the people that come later will not be switching clients quite so much, but, also, they're gonna have they're just gonna expect stuff to work, and they're not gonna understand why there's, like, a weird limitation

27:56

or stuff goes a bit slower or, you know, stuff doesn't sync. Whereas, I think we generally, early adopters have this more this mindset of, like, you know, like, you're expecting things to be a little bit rough around the edges.

28:09

So I think the syncing thing needs to work, at least to the degree that, you know, is easily explainable to folks. So, like, when you sync up to, you know, another client and there's no chat history, it's easy to explain to somebody that, like, hey. The reason is because it's so secure. Like, they're you know, like, we're really not sharing data between these two devices. We just care about privacy.

28:29

So Exactly. You can't see the shit.

28:31

Yeah. Exactly. I mean, I think the other thing is, like I mean, we're getting a little bit away from it in some senses, but, like, I I want Nostra to be an array of things. Right? Like, I don't want to have every single client have to implement DMs.

28:45

You know, I don't think that's a really unnecessary thing.

28:49

And I think it's totally fine that, like, I really only use signal for messaging with people, and, like, it doesn't have to be my social client as well. Right. And so I I don't think it's weird that we would say, okay. The the client that does DMs in the most incredible way possible and handles all the syncing and all the edge cases

29:06

is gonna win in that realm. And then the the social clients might, like, do a little bit of that, but, like, they won't handle they won't handle multi device or something like that. We might have, like, a DM client. Like, that is the client that, like, 95%

29:19

of users use for DMs.

29:21

Right. But they don't actually use it for their, like, Twitter competitor or their Instagram competitor or whatever.

29:27

Yeah. Yeah. Like, I think that would probably be the much better outcome because it also means that,

29:33

you know, the the people who are focused on building that app are solving that problem completely.

29:38

Like, what we don't want is a bunch of apps that do, like, half of the job for for users. Like, we want the job, like, properly solved.

29:46

And especially in a case like this where, you know, this sort of client, you know, with this sort of security requirement or at least proposed security requirement, like, should be capable of, you know, being the messenger in really hostile situations where you've got maybe activists and, you know, authoritarian regimes where this is how they're organizing. And if they get caught, like, they're they they could actually

30:08

die. Yeah. And their whole families get thrown in jail and shit like that. Right. Right. Right. Right. So, like Bad shit.

30:13

Yeah. You would want the people building that client to be, like, completely deep into that, you know, problem space.

30:20

So I'm kinda curious.

30:22

Okay. I think this DM spec is fucking awesome, and we need it.

30:27

I don't know how long we need to actually talk about it on the show.

30:32

I think we've done it. We've definitely got, like I guess the main thing is that, it's still a little ways out. Like, there's you know, people are starting to tinker with implementations.

30:41

You know, anybody that's wanting to do some implementation, like, please reach out to me. I'm more than happy to walk through all the, you know, nitty gritty details.

30:50

You know, I'm gonna definitely build a bunch of,

30:53

kind of the low level stuff into NDK so that it's much easier for client devs to do this without, you know, screwing it up.

30:59

But, like, more than happy to talk to folks about it. And, you know, yeah, there's a couple of, like, small pieces that we need to keep working on and and get, you know, kinda pushed further along before it's really ready.

31:10

Awesome. Well, thank you for your service.

31:13

I would like to see this implemented in as many clients as possible, because right now, I literally just use DMs to respond back, message me on signal

31:21

Right. Which clearly you do as well.

31:26

And I think it's important. Like, it is

31:29

which is why the original NIP for DMs exists in the first place. It was like, you can't compete with Twitter if you don't have DMs.

31:36

Like, there's actually, like, one of the things I lost when I deleted Twitter was, like, I had this global address book of people I could message.

31:45

Yeah. And hopefully, Noster eventually replaces that, but it hasn't yet.

31:50

Right. And I just straight up sacrificed it by

31:55

burning it and just saying fuck all. And Yeah. We can do this thing.

32:01

I I I think there is a strong argument about just burning the bridges

32:04

and just forcing yourself to improve,

32:08

which is why I personally did it, and everyone can make their own decision.

32:12

Yeah. Like, I'm kind of with that. You know, I definitely sympathize with it. There was, like, a a thing that,

32:18

the 37 signals guys said years ago where they, like, don't track feature requests for their products. They just, you know, answer the questions. And the questions that just keep coming back are the ones that then become top of mind, and they know without having to track anything or look up anything that, like, okay. This is what, generally, our customers are really asking us for.

32:36

There you go.

32:38

Okay. So I would like to see this DM spec,

32:41

moved along. I think Nostra DMs are

32:45

a major pain point right now. And it's not even really a pain point to adoption. It's just a pain point of users

32:53

that are actively using the protocol, whatever

32:56

20,000 of us, 30,000 of us that are using it. Right. Because the new users actually don't realize that they're shitty.

33:03

Right. The new users This is a more dangerous myth. Yeah. I mean, it sucks for them. Like, it's really fucked up. And especially if they're,

33:12

like, just uploading image links, and they don't even realize the images

33:16

are public. That's a whole different ballgame. I mean, your spec doesn't even solve that.

33:21

No. No. No. Your images are somewhere on some server somewhere, and they're not private.

33:28

Yeah. Depending on the client. Yeah. That that's totally true.

33:32

Yeah. For sure. I mean, one thing I would actually suggest for client developers is, like, NIP 17 was recently merged.

33:39

It is a huge step up in privacy,

33:42

over NIP 0 4. It uses the NIP 44 encryption.

33:46

It uses gift wraps. It's really quite trivial to implement,

33:52

you know, for client developers. And so, like, I would pretty highly suggest that, like, most that solve?

33:57

It solves the metadata leakage, and gives you, like, stronger encryption of the actual content. So it you know, instead of using,

34:06

your private key to encrypt things, it uses a conversation key, which is sort of a variant. You create, like, a new private key that you both share. Right?

34:14

Kind of. Yeah. Kind of. And so, you know, again, if that leaks, like, the conversation is,

34:19

fully visible to anybody that wants to decrypt it. But at least all of that data is hidden behind this wall of metadata. So it's it's actually hard for people to tell, like, who's talking to who. So who should I go and try to attack for this, you know, conversation key?

34:35

So, like, it's definitely not ideal, but it's way better than what we've got. And I think, like, if you went to the point where, you know, okay, if you're gonna wait for, you know, all of the double ratchet stuff to be ready,

34:47

oh, you can't hear your no.

34:50

I can hear you. Sorry. Harry is Harry is in the studio.

34:54

Harry Sudhak. I'm just crashing with my Harry Sudhak is What's up, Harry? What's up, brother? And he was asking me questions, so I was just answering. I just thought we could use a rotating key. Yeah. He's he's asking the questions that you're you're solving. Like, the same way that the same way that signal has time locked

35:11

erasure Yeah. That's could all you could also just encrypt This is literally on the same schedule. This is literally what we're having conversation about. I should get that.

35:18

Yeah. Yeah. You should. I mean, you should definitely be there. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's alright. Your comments on the, spec.

35:25

He says he he's waiting for your comments on the spec, Harry. I'm just pulling requests.

35:31

Sorry. This is Bitcoin Park. So we just have, like Exactly. Great Bitcoiners just walk in,

35:36

tell me what they want.

35:38

Exactly. They just stroll and, like, give you the, give you the answers.

35:42

We try and make it happen. So NIP 17, they should implement NIP 17 ASAP.

35:47

And then after that,

35:49

let's do that.

35:50

It's, like, pretty trivial to to, like, conditionally handle different types of DMs as they come in. Right? Like, you can see when a when a message is just encrypted with,

36:00

you know, standard NIPO 4 encryption versus it's okay. This is like a NIP 17 d m. We need to do 2 extra steps before we can actually show this message. And so, you know, like, a thread between 2 parties could literally be going back and forth between, you know, NIP o four conversation, you know, encryption

36:16

and NIP 17, depending on what's coming in. But, you know, the clients do have to handle it. So, like, there is a bit of work there.

36:24

Right.

36:25

Okay. Awesome. Yeah. We definitely need better DMs.

36:33

Like, people who have It's coming. We're improving. We're iterating. It's happening over time. Takes time. It takes time. What what else are you working on in Nostra?

36:43

Yeah. So I spend,

36:45

a bunch of my time, like, playing effectively, like, experimenting with weird other stuff clients.

36:52

I think the one that, most people know of is Lister.

36:55

That was the first thing I started building on Nostr once I, you know, I built, like, Nostr dot how, which was, like, just a basic educational site,

37:02

you know, very first because, basically, signing up and, like, figuring out the keys and everything and, like, trying to download brand name. That's a great domain.

37:10

Yeah. It is a good domain. Actually, it wasn't my domain. It was even $5,000,000.

37:15

Yeah. Nostril.com?

37:16

No. Nostril.how?

37:18

I mean, maybe maybe, like, 2,000,000? Maybe 2. I mean, 1 1.2 maybe. Like Oh, yeah. We should be able to get some more. Point 2. There you go. Yeah. Okay. So sorry. I interrupted you. Yeah. You built nostr.how,

37:30

lister, continue.

37:32

The next kind of client that I played around with was, ostrich dot work, which was,

37:37

effectively it was like the implementation

37:40

necessary for a spec for classified ads that I wanted. Okay. So NIP 99 is classified ads just in general.

37:48

And if you, you know, squint, like, one type of classified ad is a job job posting. Right. So I built a real simple client for people to post jobs. I'm actually in the middle of kind of, tearing that apart and rebuilding it completely.

38:01

You know, I've it's like the one client that I, you know, built in a week have put very little kinda maintenance into, and people still like, every time I'm at a conference, people come up and they're like, when are we gonna have, like, some better way to do recruiting and find work and, like, you know, hire freelancers and

38:17

yeah. It's a problem looking for an answer, and I'm like, I'm the problem stuck in the middle going, I've I'm doing too many other things as well. Like, I don't have time.

38:24

But it's it keeps coming back, and so I think I'm gonna have to work on it more. So

38:29

Yeah. I mean, that's something that people really want solved. I mean, I don't think you can ever fully solve it, but monster.com

38:36

definitely did not solve it. Yeah. Indeed didn't either. LinkedIn hasn't done a great job. Like, it's Fuck LinkedIn, man. Yeah. Exactly.

38:43

Hey, Jeff. Do you have a LinkedIn?

38:46

I do still have a LinkedIn. I'm barely looking. I know, man. I know. I know. Do you have any self respect?

38:51

Yeah.

38:53

I've decided Barely on low on dignity.

38:55

Instead of shaming people for Twitter, I've just decided that I'm gonna go for the low hanging fruit.

39:01

Yeah. Why? You don't need anything. Know. You know what? You're gonna not delete my LinkedIn after this. You don't need a LinkedIn.

39:07

Yeah. I'm gonna delete my LinkedIn after this. It is really important. Use it. It literally sits

39:11

there. You can't even, like, privacy lock it down. Like, it's designed to just leak as much information as possible about you. Yes. Yes, it is. It's pretty bad.

39:21

I'm going to I'm

39:23

going to delete it. I'm going to get rid of it. You have a Twitter account. Has worked. I do still have a Twitter account, but I don't have a TikTok account?

39:29

No. Oh, god. No. Jesus. Why? Why I'm too old for that?

39:34

I'm like, if you have a Twitter account, you should have a TikTok account. Because TikTok, you get a bigger audience.

39:40

Yeah. And, also, the Chinese government's buying on you. Yeah. So what? I mean,

39:45

instead of the US government. Right? It's like you Yeah. I don't know. At this point, actually, which is worse. Maybe it's actually the US. So, I mean, that's a hard call. But

39:54

Yeah. I mean,

39:55

it sucks. I love this country. I think America's amazing.

39:59

The American government can ruin my life. The CCP,

40:03

you know, it's it's a little bit disconnected. Like, I don't know. I do not have a TikTok account. I'm not trying to justify a TikTok account. But I'm saying if you have a Twitter account, you should probably have a TikTok. If if the argument is, like, to reach more people keep it around, then You would reach more people that way.

40:19

But, yeah, let's just get rid of the LinkedIn account, and we can move on from this conversation. Yeah. But that means that means I'm gonna have to build LinkedIn Noster, and I'm not sure I'm really ready to do that. We'll make sure you get a job.

40:30

You don't have to worry about that. Okay. Or I gotta build the tools so that I can find a job. You're part of the you're part of the family now. We'll we'll get you a job. You don't you don't need you don't need to be subservient to your LinkedIn account.

40:43

Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. But But fuck It is funny, though, actually. LinkedIn is one of those weird ones because I never really used it at all.

40:50

But People use it. Yeah. Yeah. Like, millions and millions and millions of people use it on a daily basis. And, like, every time I go on there, I see people that

40:59

you know, I would be like, oh, yeah. This person would not be at all into this, and they're, like, posting these long, you know, threads and, like, giant blog posts and stuff on LinkedIn. And it's just like, what? Okay.

41:10

Bizarre.

41:11

It's a community.

41:13

I,

41:14

Yeah.

41:15

I was at a bar,

41:19

like, 4 weeks ago with my baby because that's that's what we do now. We That's how you roll. You bring your baby to a bar. Yeah. You bring the

41:28

baby. And it was local. It was in Nashville. We were in the bar,

41:34

and I started talking to these 2 guys about Bitcoin.

41:38

And my wife is ride or die Bitcoiner.

41:42

Super ride or die Bitcoiner. She, like, eyes them up and down, just immediately rolls her eyes, walks away.

41:50

And I talked to them for, like, 30 minutes, 35, 40 minutes, like, trying to

41:57

explain to them, like, why Bitcoin is what matters. They were, like, more crypto people. Like, they were, like, more focused on, like, all the shit coins and stuff. Yeah. And then at the end, they said,

42:06

like, so my wife is at at this point, is, like, at the far end of the bar

42:11

giving me, like, dirty looks. She's got her baby. Taking the baby away from me, making sure the baby doesn't listen to it. She has possession of the baby. And and I'm like, I gotta go. I like, the the time has ended. Our our our time together has ended. And they say to me, they're like, oh, well, like, we would love to continue this conversation. I was like, oh, do you have signal? I was like, I'm ready to give them my signal contact. Yeah. Which they should be grateful for that they have direct access to me. And they're like, oh, no. We don't have signal. Do you have LinkedIn? And I was like, holy shit. She was right.

42:45

And, like, and I feel like a lot of people, like, that is their main method of it's insane. It's crazy.

42:52

It is kinda nuts.

42:53

It is kinda nuts, but, I mean, it is what it is. So Yeah. I guess. But, anyway, delete your LinkedIn.

43:00

Yeah. I will. Okay. So you're building a keep it around. You're building a lot of stuff on master. I'm building a lot of stuff. I mean, the other thing that I I try and and make sure I keep an you know, a reasonable amount of time for is, working on NDK.

43:13

You know, Pablo does the vast majority, but I feel like I'm the janitor,

43:17

on NDK where I kinda go behind them and clean stuff up and Oh, that's cool. Try and document things and, you know, add stuff, you know, where it makes sense. So what is NDK? Let's talk about NDK.

43:27

Yeah. So NDK is Nostra Development Kit.

43:29

You know, it was, like, you know, literally sitting on the plane on the way to,

43:35

Nostra Rica last year with Pablo.

43:38

He's like, yeah. I think I'm gonna I think I'm just gonna start building a library to, like, you know, help people build stuff on Nostrand. I was like, yeah. Definitely.

43:45

You know, JavaScript sucks. It's easy to mess it up. There's a lot of, like, low level stuff about handling, you know, relay subscriptions and, like, how do you get events and how do you manage user profile data and, you know, that most developers don't wanna deal with. Right.

43:59

And so it started from shit. Yeah. Exactly. It literally just started from him being like, okay. I've done all this 3 or 4 times for these clients that I've built. Let me just, like, pull chunks out.

44:08

And I had started doing the same and kind of chucking bits of my apps into the in the NDK, and then we added some Svelte,

44:14

component library stuff so that, you know, you could just, like, drop in a single component, and it would load up an avatar.

44:21

So it's, awesome. I'm like seeing people saying, NDK is is great. It's making their life easier. That's good. That's basically the gist is that, like, it should be,

44:31

you know, it's one of many libraries out there that help developers just work at a higher level and work faster.

44:38

Awesome.

44:40

I mean, I I think NDK is like

44:45

I mean, I think Pablo is completely underrated, but I think I think NDK is incredibly underrated.

44:53

And part of the reason most people don't realize, like,

44:57

part of the reason that OpenSats'

45:00

nostril fund exists is because NDK needed funding. Like, the whole idea that,

45:07

this idea of a Nostra development kit. Like, let's let's enable nostril developers

45:14

to build what they wanna build with as little friction as possible.

45:19

And how do we do that in the most most responsible way? And the original idea was

45:25

that there was gonna be, like, an NDK foundation or whatever.

45:29

Right. Right. Remember this. Yeah. And I I, like, I came into understanding that this thing was happening, and I was like, we are killing ourselves trying to build open sats.

45:40

Like, all this stuff that we've already killed similar to MDK in that regard. Like, we've already done all the kill yourself part.

45:48

Yeah. Why don't why don't we just have a nostril fund at open sats?

45:52

Right. And I think that there's not enough appreciation on it. Like, NDK is, like, a 1,000 flowers bloom kind of shit.

45:59

Yeah. And and it's, like, definitely by no stretch, it's the only library out there. Like, there's a lot of other libraries out there. You know, like, I have talked at length with Kieran about his, like,

46:09

you know, he's, like, built an entire stack of his own that's, like, sort of similar but different.

46:14

I think it's great to have multiple libraries out there that, you know, developers can use to build.

46:19

Again, though, like, having amazing tools is why, you know,

46:24

like, a protocol can actually flourish. You know, developers come to spaces where it's super easy to build, and they can see the output of their effort very, very quickly.

46:35

And so, you know, I I keep threatening this. I've been doing it for months. I should stop saying it out loud, but I kind of do it so that I feel bad about it, and then I will one day go and make more videos. But I made a couple of videos last year, you know, just kinda basics, you know, within DK. I need to go back and, like, go through the whole thing and show people again, like, you know, here's how you do the basics, but also, like, here's all the other shit that it can do now,

46:56

because it's a lot. Like, it covers, you know, like, caching things. It handles relays. It handles a ton of the, you know, much more complicated, you know, remote signing stuff.

47:06

It's it's really good. Like, it's a really, really helpful library.

47:10

Fuck. Yeah.

47:13

So, I mean, you've mentioned Pablo multiple times. Were you part of the Sovereign Engineering crew?

47:18

No. So I've got a bunch of kids. Yeah. I was Besides besides LinkedIn, you brought great shame to your family.

47:25

So much shame. Yeah. But it's actually really hard to get, like, you know, school age kids away in the middle of the school year for 2 full months. So

47:33

That's fair. And a wife that has a job. So it was, like, one of those things where I went back and forth to Pablo for ages and was just like, dude, I just can't make this work. So I went out to Madeira at the end of sovereign engineering, and I was always with him for the last week,

47:46

which is probably the best week to be there because, like, they were all pumped and all built for the stuff.

47:50

Yeah. Of course I would. Yeah.

47:53

Yeah. So what do you think about that? Because I didn't even make it for the last week. So I've I've brought greater shame to my Greater shame. Yeah. Deep, deep shame. You should fall on your sword. Yeah. I I do it every week, basically. Yeah.

48:06

It was

48:07

really impressive. It it was like so I kind of landed on a Friday. I came straight into demo day. You know, I knew about half the developers in the room, but, you know, the other half, I'd never met before.

48:20

The demos were incredible. Just the level

48:23

that, you know, they had kind of pushed understanding around just, like, what was possible, what was a good idea, what wasn't a good idea,

48:33

with sort of what you could do on Noster,

48:36

was really impressive. And, like, you know, in every

48:40

group, there's, like, a few ideas that come out of the group that's sort of the standout ideas.

48:45

And and I think those things are gonna go on to become really, really impressive,

48:50

projects. But, yeah, it was cool. Like, I mean, the concept like, the whole concept of we're gonna go on walks. We're gonna spend a bunch of time together just, like, hashing stuff out, arguing over things. We're gonna build stuff too, but, like, that's almost the secondary concern. Because, like, when we go away to our separate, you know,

49:06

little offices and corners and whatever,

49:08

then we can actually build the right stuff. Yeah. I mean, it's probably the first accelerator program in human history that has lost money

49:17

So far. Which is impressive. Yeah. So far. Yeah. I I Well, no, but they didn't take any cut on anything. So yeah. No. They've definitely just lost money. That's it. Yeah. They've just incredibly lost money. And usually, I mean, usually they provide money to to the participants. Like the participants also lost money. Like they also had to pay for travel.

49:34

But it was probably as someone who hasn't been there,

49:39

but as someone who considers both Gigi and Pablo brothers and is grateful for that fact,

49:47

it is it could be one of the most substantial,

49:52

actionable, real change mechanisms in terms of accelerator programs that has ever existed.

50:00

And every single participant of the program, including the operators,

50:04

lost money on it, which is insane.

50:07

And as as as someone who prides himself in being a capitalist,

50:14

Pretty crazy to witness unfold. And I I

50:19

will bring it up over and over and over again because

50:23

grateful. I'm grateful. And I I it's just crazy that that happened.

50:28

Yeah.

50:29

I mean, I'm a full capitalist as well, but, like, I think there's certain things like that where you just go

50:35

well, 1, it's proof of work. 2, it that is actually low time preference thinking. You know, you're you're just like, I'm gonna get way more from this than, you know, the the money matters at this point.

50:47

And, yeah, like, I think it was

50:50

it I would love to see, though. Like, I mean, yes, it was incredible. I think, obviously, having everybody in a place is is amazing.

50:58

I would love to see more programs like that. Like, I would love to see people just sort of come together and do this kind of almost like a, okay. How many people can we get in x, you know, island or x, you know, village in the mountains or wherever it is?

51:11

Let's all just stay in the same place. I've, like, sussed out the details.

51:15

You know, show up, and we're gonna, you know, hack on this sort of vague space of ideas. But you can shortcut your way there. Like, there's no

51:24

like money doesn't buy that. I think the whole key is that it's it was just pure ideology. It was, like, pure

51:31

people cared. Right? Yep. I mean, you mentioned your own,

51:37

flock of children. But, like,

51:40

at the end of the day, like, if you have children, like, you wanna see them live in a better place. Right. And, like, it doesn't matter

51:47

what does it cost time wise or what does it cost monetarily.

51:50

None of that fucking matters. And and if you solve those problems, though, you might not actually have the thing.

51:57

Like, the thing might not actually happen. Right. So I don't know if we can I don't think we can manufacture it? I think it's just one of those beautiful things that happens.

52:05

Yeah. And, Yeah. As someone who would like to manufacture

52:10

better things Right. I don't think we can. I I think it's unmanufacturable.

52:16

Yeah. There are certain things like that. Right? Like,

52:18

you know, time and place and people

52:21

matter. I I think they matter, like, a lot more, and they're a lot more serendipitous than a lot of people give them credit for.

52:28

Like, you know, one of the things that I kind of always, you know, think is, like, sort of, I've been working remotely for more than 15 years. And, like, you know, for a long time, at the beginning, it was, like, super weird. No one works remotely. And then it, you know, over time, it's become more and more normal. But,

52:42

I remember the beginning, I was like, no. No.

52:45

Yeah. Exactly. But, like, it's

52:49

it's one of those things that I think in the beginning, I was like, no. No. Like, you can do like, you can get just as much benefit being remote as being in the place with the other people. And

53:00

certain things, yes. But, actually, there's this there's this layer that really is the kind of I don't know. It's like the thing you can't describe that we've just been talking about, which is, you know, there is some

53:11

magic of when you get the right people in the right place together,

53:14

and they're all, you know, similarly minded and they're all pushing against the same topic, they are gonna come out with something that is

53:22

exponentially or, like, surprisingly much better,

53:25

than any you know, than the same group would have done even if they'd been working on the same problem, but not in the same place.

53:33

Damn right. Yeah.

53:35

So yeah. I mean, I love living where I live, and I'm, like, out in the middle of nowhere. But at the same time, it's,

53:40

I do put a you know? We got a lot of guitars over there.

53:44

Yeah. I do have a couple of guitars. They don't get played as much as they should, but I do have some guitars.

53:48

It's a lot less than I used to have.

53:52

I also live kinda in the middle of nowhere, but

53:55

close enough to Nashville that I get to see a bunch of big corners.

53:59

Right. Exactly. And, like, you know, you prioritize

54:01

that time. Right? Like, you're like, oh, no. This is this is the time that I need to go spend in the place with the people. It's important to see people in person as much as I just wanna,

54:12

like, crawl into a hole or not crawl into a hole, but, like,

54:17

you know, just not see anybody.

54:21

It's important it's important to be in person with people, shake hands with people, look them in the eyes, argue with them in person,

54:29

have a few beers, like, make the things happen. Like, it Yeah.

54:34

Humanity progresses based on a small group of individuals,

54:40

like, who just decide that they wanna make shit happen,

54:44

and this thing happens. Yeah. Like, it's crazy.

54:47

It's crazy how much, like, we've

54:50

removed personal responsibility from this world. Yes. This is this is the thing that kills me more than anything else, especially about living in Europe. Like, it drives me mad. No. I didn't know you were in Europe. But okay. Yeah. I've been we've been in, like, Northern Italy for 14, 15 years. So Madero is kinda close to you, bro.

55:08

Ish. Still, like, 4 hour 4 and a half hour flight. It's closer than Nashville.

55:13

Only marginally, though. Like, not much.

55:17

Yep. I mean, it comes down to individuals. Like, that's the crazy part. It's like

55:21

like, the one thing I would want to impress on as many people as possible

55:26

is that you can change the fucking world. Yes. All progress happens at the margin. Yeah. This whole idea that,

55:33

like, you raise kids, you're like, oh, like,

55:36

you can do anything you wanna be, like, that is probably bullshit.

55:41

But individuals do change the world. It happens

55:45

constantly. It comes down to single people,

55:49

groups of people, 5, 6, 10 people, 15 people. Change the world.

55:55

And you just gotta keep pushing forward and, like, make that actually fucking happen.

56:00

Right. And pick the right thing to work on. Right? Because, like, wouldn't be And not have a LinkedIn.

56:05

And not have a LinkedIn. Yeah. Don't get don't get distracted with LinkedIn or TikTok

56:09

or BlueJeans.

56:11

I love by by the way, Harry's listening to this episode now.

56:15

He's over Listening. He's around the he's put his headphones in so he can actually hear what we're talking about. Excellent.

56:23

Harry's a good example, actually. So, like, I was hanging out with Harry there just, like, a month and a little bit ago and, like, that whole crew, and it was awesome. Like, you know, it's one of those, like, highlights of being able to go to these, you know, Bitcoin events, meet a bunch of people and go, I know your voice from a bunch of podcasts. Now I know you, and we've hung out, and we've, like, done stuff together. So I think Wait. What event did you meet Harry at?

56:44

In, at cheat code in the UK. Oh, chi oh, I

56:48

I probably should've went to cheat code. Yeah. You probably should have. It was fun. Yeah. Bedford was sick. He's listening. Bedford was sick. The Paris of the UK?

56:58

Well, I sent Harry. Harry was my

57:00

I was here. Designated

57:02

conference goer? Yeah. So my diplomat you we kinda met each other

57:06

through Kind of. Yeah. Maybe. Okay. Sure. Well, one day one day we'll meet each other. I honestly, like, there's too many conferences.

57:14

There are too many conferences now.

57:16

And I like I like I was saying, I actually really love to get this done.

57:20

Yeah. I'm, like, a bit of a binary type of person, though. Like, I need to go to the conferences and, like, meet all the people and stay up all night long and, like, not sleep at all. But then I need to come home and work for a month quietly by myself in my attic, and that's it.

57:35

Yeah.

57:35

No. I mean, I agree. I but I went through that phase already. Like, I did

57:40

I did a lot of events. I've done too many, but I don't

57:46

yeah. I mean, I I I do not wanna be an influencer. I do not wanna be

57:54

a celebrity. Like, I, like, kind of stumbled into this position,

57:58

and I just care about freedom. Like, I just want people to have freedom.

58:03

Jeff, I have you here.

58:06

You know your shit. You're involved with Noster.

58:12

I've I've put the call out that I will go on

58:15

any show that wants to ask me hard questions.

58:20

They don't exist, unfortunately, which is why Ciel Dispatch exists.

58:25

Live, unedited.

58:28

No shows with hard questions? None? I

58:31

do you know one?

58:34

I haven't thought about that, but let me think.

58:42

No.

58:46

It's pretty sad.

58:49

I mean, I I feel like,

58:52

what's the guy in the black suit? I can never remember his name. I haven't listened to his podcast in a long time. Fucking suits.

58:57

I don't know who you're talking about. You know who I'm talking about? The kinda AI guy who does, like, the 5 hour podcast with all the same famous people. Yes. Lex Friedman. He doesn't ask hard questions. He has no is is that he had the possibility

59:09

of being the person that would ask the hard questions. Not that person. Blew it. He does. Yeah. You do the opportunity.

59:14

Yeah. You now just kinda like Because it's easier it's easier to take the sponsor that will pay you the most, and it will say the things. And you make everything edited and super polished,

59:26

and you don't you don't do the fucking hard questions. So, Jeff Yeah. Yes.

59:30

You're active in the Nostra community. I have respect for you.

59:34

Do you have any hard questions, for me? Like, do you have any hard questions? I think this is I'm gonna make this

59:43

a reoccurring segment on dispatch. You're the first.

59:47

So sorry

59:48

for putting you on the spot. It on me. Okay.

59:50

But if if you have hard questions for me, and I'll I'll

59:54

I'll actually do you a favor, and I'll prime your questions.

59:57

Okay. Open SaaS. Do you have issues with Open SaaS? Primal 1031 is a major investor in primal. We are the largest investor in primal. Yes.

1:00:07

We're the largest investor in mutiny wallet

1:00:11

and and 34 other Bitcoin companies.

1:00:14

Do you have any hard questions for me?

1:00:17

So and and I'm going to I'm going to talk. I know you're an open session for a moment. Yeah. I know you're an open sass grantee.

1:00:24

Just know. Yes. I will still approve any grants.

1:00:29

I get the blanket stamp of approval.

1:00:32

No. No. No. No. No. No. Not get a blanket stamp of approval. That's also bad. That's also

1:00:37

bad. But your proof of work has shown that you should get an approval.

1:00:40

So you will still get approval. I just care about approval work. While I think about a hard question, I'm gonna actually just talk about that whole thing because I actually don't think that's a hard question at all. And

1:00:51

The whole thing about OpenSats and 1031

1:00:54

and primal and, you know, conflicts of interest and things like that. Right?

1:01:01

Like, I think all of these things are,

1:01:05

nuanced, and I think humans in general, especially in social media are very, very, very bad at nuance.

1:01:11

And they're very bad at understanding that, like,

1:01:15

you know, situations and people like, the people are the messy bit, and it's not, like, it's most of the time not some sort of,

1:01:23

you know, system that's against them. Right? Like, even when I think about,

1:01:28

you know, Janet Yellen and, you know, Liz Warren and, like, all these,

1:01:34

we'll leave all the words out. But I I kind of think, no, this is just a really, really bad, gigantic set of incentives that have gone on for so long that they don't even see most of it anymore. And so all of that is just a really complex system that has spit out these really bad

1:01:53

externalities. Now, like, I think the only question here is, like, OpenSats, amazing. Like, OpenSats is one of the most incredible resources that Bitcoin and Noster has. Right? Along with Spiral, along with Brink, along with, you know, other systems that provide, you know, kinda no strings attached developer support.

1:02:11

Like, that's incredibly rare. And I think, like, if anybody looks anywhere else around any other kind of space in the world, you'd be hard pressed to find a more sort of,

1:02:23

like, ideologically aligned and incentivized

1:02:26

group of nonprofits They're, like, do great work and don't take a cut off the top and don't you know, like, they're very

1:02:34

I mean, I think, like, it fucked you for the Janet Yellen comparison.

1:02:39

Well, I didn't say you were Janet Yellen. I mean, you're probably taller than her. So I think Janet Yellen is, I mean, who knows? I'm quite short,

1:02:46

but full disclosure.

1:02:49

But I think Janet Yellen is malicious. But I I that's just my own personal opinion. I I don't think there's any nuance needed there. I think she is like she's got the Cantillionaire,

1:03:01

like Yeah. Antillion effect. Drinking from the spigot. Straight from the spigot. Yeah. And I just I think she's a bad actor. And but, I mean but you could argue that the

1:03:12

incentives enable that Yes. Which is the incentive is that this big exists.

1:03:17

Yeah. I think they became bad actors because of the incentives.

1:03:21

Yeah. Like, very few people go through the world being like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna go, you know, totally screw those people over there. Right? Like, I just

1:03:29

if I didn't believe that, I think I would be, like, fully depressed all the time. Right? Like, you kinda have to just kinda go through life and be like, most people are trying their best.

1:03:37

It drives me mad that most people are capable of doing better, but, like, that is kinda what it is. Yeah. Most people are just, like, in their hole, and they just don't realize what's going on for the most part. And they just they are they are they actually think they're doing well. Like Right. And back to the personal responsibility thing, most people don't actually want to take responsibility. They don't want to make the decisions. They don't want to have to make hard choices. And so they would actually just rather be told,

1:04:03

if you do a, b, and c, then, like, you'll be pretty much fine. And as long as that contract mostly works out, like, honestly,

1:04:11

unfortunately, from, you know, my point of view, like, that's what most people want.

1:04:16

So you have no complaints about Open SENSE?

1:04:19

I mean, my experience has been incredible. Like, one, I, you know, obviously, I'm a grant recipient. So, like, I have a dog in this horse or a race whatever it is, horse in this race.

1:04:32

And but, like, you know, at no point has OpenSats ever tried to, like, nudge me one way or the other.

1:04:40

In fact, it'd probably be better if openSats

1:04:42

Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah. Exactly. Like, it'd probably be better if OpenSats was a little bit more, like, hands on and pushy about, you know, their opinions.

1:04:51

But, you know, I think you guys have, you know, set it up in a way as best you possibly can to make it uncorruptible.

1:04:58

Like, there's a bunch of people that are board members that aren't resistant paid. Is what I'm Corruption resistant. Yeah. Exactly. Nothing is uncorruptible.

1:05:05

Okay. Okay. Corruption resistant. You know, I think

1:05:10

everybody's been super transparent about how the whole thing works.

1:05:13

You know, I think, obviously, it's really hard when you get a ton of grant applications to actually sift through them and go, okay. What are our,

1:05:22

like, what are the criteria that we judge these things based on? And I think for the most part, this last year has been you guys trying to figure out, like, what is our actual system here.

1:05:30

So it's been a little bit

1:05:33

Gigi told me that I I act too often.

1:05:37

I like, so we do act knack. Everything is issue GitHub issue based.

1:05:43

And I'm I'm, like, way too fluid with giving out the money. Like, I just

1:05:50

Yeah. I just I because I I figure, like, the whole point of Open SaaS is that we're

1:05:57

supposed to review it over time. Right? Yes. So, like, if I accidentally

1:06:00

give someone 50 k for the year

1:06:04

and and we give out larger larger grants than that. But if if I give out if we give out someone 50 k for the year and they don't actually hold up their end of the bargain and one of the beauty beautiful parts about open source software

1:06:17

is that there's true proof of work. Like, you you see a record of what commits happen and and what happens.

1:06:23

Right. I don't think that's, like, the biggest negative in the world. Like, that's fine. It's like, okay. I'm sorry that that we lost that money. Like, it could've went to a better developer.

1:06:32

That does suck. There's opportunity cost there. Money is scarce. But but on the other hand, like, I mean, I don't know for all the grants, but, like, my understanding is that most of the grants are kind of, paid out over time. Like, it's not like you just throw.

1:06:46

Exactly. And so Isn't that nice? Are not things that are you know, you you lose all the money immediately, and then you wait a year to figure out whether it's actually worth Oh, we'll figure it out in a couple months.

1:06:55

Exactly. Exactly. So, I mean, people are messy. Like, it's really hard to figure those things out. And, like, sometimes

1:07:01

you do need to take wild bets on projects that look super bizarre and weird. And, like, you know, that's exactly what this is for in my opinion. And so

1:07:09

to be honest, like, I, I've got no gripes with OpenSats.

1:07:14

I've got no gripes that, there's board members who are,

1:07:18

also VCs. You know, I happen to have a lot of friends at VCs. That's you.

1:07:23

You know, I just think VC friends. I have VC friends. Yeah. I know. Wow. Some of them are actually friends yet. So it's not me. You're not talking about It's not you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean

1:07:32

yeah. But, like, yeah, some of them are busy. Hopefully, Jeff.

1:07:35

Maybe one day. Maybe. May we'll see. We'll see. We gotta meet. You know? We gotta hang out.

1:07:39

You might ask me for, like, you know, my, like, LinkedIn DMs or something. I don't know. I would never ask for that. That'd be ridiculous.

1:07:47

Okay. I think I have a hard question. Okay. Thank you. I need the hard questions. I'm gonna, like, try to find out what's going on. Bit of a softball hard question, though, because it's, like, one of those, like, what if type of things. But then I'll ask you, like, another hard question that gets better. But I do have this one because I think I'm just kinda curious.

1:08:05

If there was no Bitcoin, what do you think you'd be doing? I'm so fucked.

1:08:11

I don't know. What do you want my answer to be? I've dedicated my life to this. Literally think about, like, what else is there out there and where might you have ended up?

1:08:20

My my core incentive

1:08:22

is that if Bitcoin fails, I'm fucked.

1:08:26

Like, I have nothing. Yeah. I just hear Harry just said, hey, Ben. Yes. I have nothing.

1:08:33

Yeah. I don't want anything. I,

1:08:38

Yeah. I just

1:08:41

I guess it's less it's less about if Bitcoin fails. It's what if Bitcoin never was.

1:08:45

Yeah. I mean, Bitcoin must succeed.

1:08:48

Bitcoin must succeed. I mean, I was

1:08:50

I don't talk about what my previous my previous,

1:08:55

but it it's relatively unrelated.

1:08:58

Okay. And it sucked.

1:09:01

It fucking sucked. And I was just a wage slave. You know? I was just,

1:09:06

yeah, I was just I was just making money and not really saving much of it. And,

1:09:13

I mean, I've been in Bitcoin for over a decade now. So

1:09:19

so Bitcoin is my life. Like, I just Right. And then Nasr recently has has taken up a larger portion of my life.

1:09:27

But I think it's complimentary to Bitcoin. Like, it's really just a Yeah. I forget which episode we talked about this in, but I think Nasr is, like, the first Bitcoin child project.

1:09:37

Like, it's not directly anchored in the blockchain or something like the shitcoiners would say. But, like,

1:09:44

noster exists because Bitcoin exists,

1:09:47

and it exists because Bitcoiners needed a communication protocol.

1:09:51

And so noster was made. So Nasr, to me, is a child project to Bitcoin,

1:09:57

and it's a feature, not a bug. Like, people say, like, oh, like, too much Bitcoin conversation happens or there's too many Bitcoin. Like, it's a feature, not a bug. Like, the reason

1:10:05

we might have a possibility of a chance on a on a free speech protocol is because of

1:10:12

because Bitcoiners exist, because Bitcoiners wanted to see it happen. Yep. Yep. But yeah. I've I've I've

1:10:19

I've essentially you know, I say stay humble, Stack stats. People should stay humble in Stack stats.

1:10:26

But, like, I'm all in. No regrets. Like, that's really my lifestyle. It's been my lifestyle for about 7, 8 years now.

1:10:33

Yeah. And if Bitcoin were to fail,

1:10:37

me and my family would have to do major,

1:10:41

rediscovery over what we were supposed to do with our lives and also how we're gonna live our lives. Like, I don't really have a

1:10:48

clean answer to that. That's a good question. Yeah.

1:10:52

I have another one.

1:10:53

And also, as we fucked because we just have

1:10:57

Right. All of our funds are just held in multisig bitcoin. Like we have

1:11:02

our treasury strategy is straight up. If you donate fiat, it immediately gets converted to Bitcoin.

1:11:08

There's no, you know, time to market anything. It's just like we just hold in Bitcoin multi sig. Because the moment where Jack Dorsey's $21,000,000

1:11:18

goes into a bank account Right. I assume it's lost until it gets to the multisig.

1:11:25

Right? Like, it's like you don't actually have the funds. Well, like, can you imagine that? Can can can someone

1:11:32

can one of the open sats haters out there just imagine $21,000,000

1:11:37

entering into a bank account and trying to get that to Bitcoin. Like, that's the scariest fucking

1:11:43

1 week, period where until we get it to the multisig.

1:11:48

Yeah.

1:11:49

Yeah. Look. I mean, coming back to that that conversation, like, I think that the,

1:11:54

you know, for people out there that, wanna hate, like, it's the most,

1:11:59

it's the worst way to actually get anything that you want done done. Right? Like, if you've got a Good hate it. A legitimate gripe, be positive and optimistic and talk to people in good faith and, like, point out why you think it's a problem.

1:12:11

If you are annoyed that you haven't gotten a grant, and you really want one, keep applying.

1:12:17

Like, I didn't get a grant on my first application either. So, you know, just apply again and, you know, make your case, show proof of work, like, do the legwork.

1:12:27

So I I don't know. Like, the the whole thing, I've kinda tried to stay out of it, but, like,

1:12:30

I just find it kinda tiresome because I don't think it,

1:12:33

really is helpful for it's not a good use of anybody's time, basically. I love that I chose, like, one of the most optimistic people for my

1:12:41

hard For your first hard questions?

1:12:43

I Okay. I have a better hard question actually for you.

1:12:47

What is the one thing that you think

1:12:52

it's kind of a 2 part question. I hate 2 part questions, but I'm gonna do it anyways.

1:12:56

Alright. What's the one thing that you think is holding

1:12:59

Bitcoin and Nostra Development back,

1:13:04

like it's slowing it down? And

1:13:08

is there something that, like you know, is it something that we could learn or take from,

1:13:14

you know, the shit coinery that tends to grow very quickly,

1:13:18

and tends to get a lot of, a lot of, you know,

1:13:22

I guess, interest overall in the tech community

1:13:25

or just from, like, tech in general. So, you know, it doesn't have to be shitcoiners, but, like, you know, AI or any of the tech stuff that tends to grow, you know, exponentially faster than most Bitcoin and Nostra stuff. I mean, it's straight up money, man.

1:13:38

Like, that's

1:13:40

that's why I was a masochist and agreed with Ben Price when he reached out. When Ben reached out to me about Open Sats, he was a complete nobody. Bitcoin company didn't exist.

1:13:51

He had a different name. He reached out to me on Keybase because

1:13:55

signals at that point still didn't let you communicate without doxing your phone number. So, like, Keybase was the main way that people could just reach out to me.

1:14:04

And he was like, we need to start open sets.

1:14:07

And I was like, no. Like, it's anti Bitcoin.

1:14:11

Like, there shouldn't be a middle man. Like, you should just people should just donate directly.

1:14:17

So then I talked to Dennis Reiman, and we built bitcoin devilish dotcom. And, like, people could donate directly, and no one donated directly.

1:14:25

And then I went back to Ben, and I was like, okay. Fine. I'll do this thing, but please

1:14:31

limit my paperwork. Like, I don't wanna deal with paperwork.

1:14:35

And he's done a good job with that. Like, he dealt with the majority of paperwork, and he deserves mass of credit for that. And he also deserves massive credit for the idea of a 100% pass through organization.

1:14:45

Yeah. Because I would be lying if I didn't say, like, oh, well, what if we took, like, a humble 3%,

1:14:51

you know, for our troubles,

1:14:54

which is significant. Like, we have significant troubles.

1:14:58

Yeah. And that's how this whole idea of the operations fund got born. But, anyway, my point is

1:15:05

is it really does come down to the money and the support.

1:15:08

And as much as we can say, like,

1:15:13

oh, like, that doesn't matter, like, open source, like, let's do this, let's do that.

1:15:18

Like, all the shitcoiners have, like, these massive debt funds that are paid by the foundation that takes the prima and that does the fucking thing.

1:15:26

And in Bitcoin, we don't have that liberty. We don't have that,

1:15:31

gratefully I'm very grateful. We don't have a free mind,

1:15:35

that can fund all that shit. Right? And and this is where you get all this bullshit. Right? Where it's like Right.

1:15:43

You know, like OpenAI or whatever. Like, oh, we have this dev fund, and and it's, like, super easy. You could build apps on top of our surveillance software, and you can do this and you can do that. It's not it's not just shit coins.

1:15:54

Right. And I think people underestimate

1:15:58

the fact that Open SaaS is an organization

1:16:00

that it's something like that has never existed before.

1:16:03

And, like, we built it from the ground up to try and be as corruption resistant as possible,

1:16:09

and we built it from the ground up to be a Bitcoin standard organization.

1:16:13

I mean, this whole idea of of monthly payouts is insane

1:16:19

if you're not doing Bitcoin batch transactions.

1:16:23

Right. And and the idea that an individual board member doesn't have access

1:16:29

to the funds because it's multisig

1:16:32

is fucking groundbreaking.

1:16:35

And, like, it's simple shit. It and but it's it's super simple. It's not like I'm not pretending like we reinvented the wheel. We just decided to do the hard thing

1:16:44

using simple tech that existed.

1:16:48

Yep. And I think it does change the game. I think I think at the end of the day, especially in this regulatory environment,

1:16:56

if you look at it, I think

1:16:59

people are over indexing on

1:17:05

I mean, you're Italian, but, most of our audience is American. They're like, oh, the government's coming after self custody Bitcoin ownership. The US government's coming after self cuss I really don't think that's the case. I think most self custody Bitcoin owners are fine.

1:17:21

I think the bigger concern would be, like, future self custody Bitcoin owners. Like like, try and add friction

1:17:27

to Yeah. Own self custody Bitcoin so you just end up in ETF somehow in coin based custody.

1:17:33

Yeah. Whether it's an ETF or some other product, it's like you're in Coinbase custody.

1:17:37

Right.

1:17:39

But

1:17:41

the bigger issue the bigger issue is that, like, if you're gonna build Freedom Software, if you're gonna build software that enables Freedom,

1:17:49

you have immense liability if you take a profit off of it.

1:17:53

And I think Open Sats kind of, like, bridges that gap.

1:17:58

Yep. OpenSats provides a way for people to live. I mean,

1:18:04

I get and one of these things is, like, people don't realize. They're like, oh, it should just only be devs as the board members. They everyone has their complaint about what it should be.

1:18:16

But at the end of the day, it's a it's a high pressure position to be in, and I respect that position. Like, I

1:18:22

I respect the fact that people think

1:18:26

that my integrity matters. And I I agree my integrity matters. Like, it does matter.

1:18:32

It should matter less because we have 9 board members. That's why we designed it that way.

1:18:38

But my I I I guess my point is

1:18:41

is that to provide

1:18:45

no strings attached funding to open source contributors

1:18:49

that might not be able to monetize their open source project because then they get thrown in a gulag

1:18:55

is incredibly important. And some of these open source contributors

1:19:00

that received grants from OpenSats have better take home pay than I had this year.

1:19:06

And I'm cool with that, because, first of all, I care about the mission. 2nd of all, I have a child, and I plan to have more.

1:19:15

And I want them to live in a better world.

1:19:18

And third of all, because that's the only way that it's gonna fucking happen.

1:19:23

Like, there's no way that it doesn't happen that way. That it's either it happens that way or it doesn't fucking happen.

1:19:30

I would love a world where everyone just zaps people directly.

1:19:35

Congratulations. There's, like, 3 people that zap more than me. No one fucking does it.

1:19:42

Citadel Dispatch has been funded on Zaps since before Zaps existed.

1:19:47

And Lionel Shriver came on the podcast, and she got, like, 3 x more than I ever have gotten ever in Cielo Dispatch history.

1:19:55

And that is fine. But, like, my point is is, like,

1:19:59

I would like there not to be a middleman. I would like there not to be a 9 person board that decides that allocate stuff. I would like,

1:20:07

the best complaint we haven't really gotten

1:20:10

is that open source,

1:20:12

Open SaaS contributors and HRF contributors and Brink contributors and Spyro contributors

1:20:18

all have to submit 10.90 nines and essentially KYC with themselves with the US government.

1:20:25

I would prefer if that wasn't the case.

1:20:27

Me too. Prefer they receive donations directly.

1:20:32

We haven't gotten into that point yet. Right. So someone has to do the hard shit, and we're doing the hard shit. Yep. Yep. I'm trying to make it happen. Yep.

1:20:41

I mean, I saw somebody's, made a point about, it's kinda gone in the comments now, but kinda saying, growth at all costs is a bad trade.

1:20:48

And I think, like, yes,

1:20:51

100%, but, I guess, the point of my question was not necessarily how do we do growth at all costs.

1:20:59

I think what we all want is more freedom. And we know that this space has to grow, and we have to get more people

1:21:06

to realize that this is normal and okay and and reasonable. Like, we're never gonna convert the entire world to be as psychopathic as we are. Right? Because, like, as we talked about before, it's a small number of people that that make things change in the world.

1:21:19

But we do have to make this normal to a lot more people so that they don't keep attacking us. Right?

1:21:28

I I am very sympathetic to to your point there. Right? Like, I've worked in a lot of venture funded startups where, you know, the money comes in and it's put to, you know, good or bad use, but it's put to use.

1:21:41

And I think, you know, for better or worse, that's the world we live in. Like, it costs money to make things happen. And so you need to have a way to, you know, exert that force in the world and, you know, and use that as a, you know, kind of multiplier against, you know, the actual effort that you can expend.

1:21:58

What do you think about, since I feel like you're not asking the hard questions, what do you think about Muni with 2 u's saying non NIMs are an attack vector?

1:22:13

Wait. Mutiny with 2 u's. I'm still confused about this part. It's muny. It's m u u n y Asking

1:22:19

he he's not asking. There's it's not a question.

1:22:22

He's just saying non nims are an attack vector. And, obviously, both me and you have our faces

1:22:28

here. Obviously, your name is Jeff.

1:22:30

Yeah. Look. My name is Odell.

1:22:33

I go back and forth here. Like, one, people can do what they want. Like, I'm the last person that is gonna stand up and be like, no. People should not have NIMs.

1:22:44

I have NIMs. But there you go. But, like, I think the main point is that,

1:22:50

we have to operate from where we are now,

1:22:53

and we're gonna need probably both things. Right? We're gonna need people that,

1:22:59

are able to do things that are well outside what's, you know, technically legal,

1:23:04

And they can do that because they've got great OPSEC and good NIMs. And we also need people that are doxed and can have the conversations in public and be a little bit, you know, more,

1:23:15

I mean, for lack of a better word, a little bit closer to the normal Overton window of what people expect.

1:23:21

I think we need both of those things. And so I don't think that,

1:23:24

it's really a question of, like, we must be all on one side or, you know, it's not worthwhile at all.

1:23:32

And this is, like, when people level, you know, all the the hate at primal for KYC ing Oh, yeah. Let's talk about that. That's just dumb. Give me the hard questions.

1:23:41

That's not even a hard question. Like, these are like, in my mind, that's just a simple trade off of, like, hey. We wanna operate in a space

1:23:48

where we're in the fully regulated thing that people are

1:23:51

normal like, normies expect. They are not weirded out by this, and we wanna make it super, super, super easy. And the only way to do that right now is to do that in a KYC light way.

1:24:01

And, yes, it's not the client you wanna use if you wanna be, like, you know, a full OPSEC, you know, ninja with your mask up. Like, just pick your tools. Like, I don't know. It's just it just seems like, you know, people missing the point again where it's like, okay. We have different tools for different things. Like, you don't need to, like, turn everything in your toolbox into a hammer. You're the worst person to ask for hard questions, I guess. But,

1:24:25

I I think I just look at Nuance, and I'm like, there's a lot like, there are no solutions. There's only trade offs. And so, like, you can pick the trade offs you want, but, like, you're never gonna get something that's just perfect. I'm I'm glad I started a hard question hour with you, though. I think it's

1:24:38

I I rolled the softball to you on the ground.

1:24:42

I,

1:24:43

one thing I would say about the nims versus

1:24:48

completely exposed individuals. Because I I mean, I that's how I would describe myself, completely exposed,

1:24:57

which is not great. It's not an ideal situation to be in.

1:25:03

I'm not asking for people's sympathy.

1:25:08

I'm asking for their understanding, maybe.

1:25:12

Or if you if you're just fucking retarded and you don't wanna have that, then then fine. That's whatever.

1:25:18

But, like, just know where I'm coming from.

1:25:21

I feel personally completely fucking exposed, and a lot of that was my own fucking choices.

1:25:27

Okay. That's where we stand. If you are one of those people,

1:25:33

it is imperative that you support the nymphs.

1:25:38

That you actually, elevate them, that you give them more,

1:25:45

a larger audience. Because at the end of the day,

1:25:49

humans appreciate seeing a person,

1:25:53

understanding a person, feeling the person. They they they want

1:25:58

they want an individual they can,

1:26:00

recognize and and and feel like they are are friends with.

1:26:05

And as a result, the people that are exposed

1:26:09

have a greater a a greater influence in terms of,

1:26:16

elevating those that aren't. And I think it's incredibly

1:26:20

empowering, when you have those people

1:26:25

help the nims. Right? And help out the nims. And and this is one of the reasons why, like, someone like a Jordan Peterson was so disappointing to me,

1:26:34

because you had, like, this guy who has this massive audience.

1:26:38

And not only did he decide not to elevate the nims, he decided to pariah the nims and, like, make them out to be this horrible

1:26:47

and it's like, if you're not going to elevate them, then just shut the fuck up. Like, don't do this. Don't do that. The far extreme of the other side.

1:26:56

Did you did you see the TED talk there recently with Scott Galloway where he, like, ripped into TED and basically all the boomers for, like, ruining their you know, the children's future, basically.

1:27:06

No. Not. It was really good.

1:27:09

You know, it's like I don't know. Whatever. 11 minute TED talk. And it's, like, great until the last, like, 30 seconds when he's like, here are some concrete things we can do. And it was like, you know, only, you know, real identities on the Internet. And I was like, oh, I'm lost. Like, you've lost me completely. Like, you had great ideas. You are totally speaking. You you are a Bitcoiner. You just don't know it yet, and you screwed up.

1:27:30

Because I totally agree with you. Like, I think, again, it's really important that we also, as people that are out there, normalize the fact that it's fine for people to hide their identity. It's not nefarious. It's not something that is dangerous. Be the norm. It really should be. Like, people should default

1:27:47

to nims.

1:27:48

And then if they want to be

1:27:52

exposed, then they choose to be exposed in the future.

1:27:57

It shouldn't be it it shouldn't be the opposite. And it's one of the reasons why the way I built dispatch

1:28:03

is that we're audio first. Right? It's like most of the time, we don't have

1:28:08

video enabled with it. Mhmm. It's because

1:28:12

even if you are a person that cares about

1:28:15

protecting your face, on most podcasts, like, you're the ostracized person. It's like, oh, it's a random guest that just decided to do it.

1:28:24

The norm should be not that. The norm should be

1:28:30

not exposing yourself. And and especially as we move to this more digital first era,

1:28:38

it becomes even more important. And we we've we've actually done the opposite

1:28:43

for the most part, and it's been incredibly disappointing.

1:28:47

Yeah. Yeah. A 100%. Yeah. It's one of the reasons I keep coming back is just because

1:28:52

if I think someone can do it better than me, I'm just gonna let them do it.

1:28:56

But no one does, and it

1:28:58

it's sad. It's sad. I challenge everyone out there.

1:29:03

Build a better open sats. Build a better 1031. Build a better silhouette. Build a better civil dispatch. Build a better rabbit hole recap.

1:29:08

I will listen to your rabbit hole recap. I will listen to your civil dispatch. I'll invest in your 1031,

1:29:14

and I'll donate to your open sats. But no one's fucking done it.

1:29:19

And it's frustrating and exhausting,

1:29:23

and I'd rather them do it. Jeff, we need to talk about primal k y c.

1:29:28

Okay. Let's do it. I know you don't want to. I know you think No. I don't mind. Mind.

1:29:33

I don't mind.

1:29:34

I I don't like it.

1:29:37

Okay.

1:29:38

I don't like it either.

1:29:39

I don't like it either. But, like,

1:29:42

I don't like it. It's a trade off. And it's definitely a trade off.

1:29:49

I think, first of all, what people don't realize

1:29:53

and I mean, it should be immediately obvious

1:29:56

is, as investors

1:30:01

at, with 1031, like,

1:30:04

first of all, I'm grateful that I have amazing partners at 10:31.

1:30:10

Grant, Jonathan, Marty, amazing. And then we have John Arnold

1:30:14

who does, everything.

1:30:17

He does so much for us, and he's a

1:30:20

he's a a junior member of 1031.

1:30:26

I am probably the most

1:30:30

active with our founders out of all of us.

1:30:35

And still, like, I don't tell founders what to do.

1:30:40

Like, we we don't we don't we don't dictate how they operate their businesses.

1:30:45

One of the key value props of 1031

1:30:48

is that is that we're not just, like, suits entering the room and just decide how you run your business. Like, if you need our help, we are here for you. If you don't want our help,

1:31:00

we will fuck off. And

1:31:02

and then we'll do everything in the middle.

1:31:05

Everything in the middle, like, you you need our help but want us to fuck off in different situations. We'll fucking do that. Right.

1:31:13

And I love Milan. I think Milan cares about Nasser. I think he cares about freedom. I think he cares about Bitcoin,

1:31:21

Milan being the founder of primal. I don't think Milan wants to attach k y c to m pups.

1:31:30

I don't think I don't think Milan has, like, this massive evil agenda.

1:31:35

I think he wants more people to use Bitcoin, and I think he wants more people to use Nasr.

1:31:40

And he finds himself in this regulatory environment where if you're a

1:31:45

founder, you're just, like, stuck with all this liability.

1:31:50

Yes. And he also wants ease of UX, and lightning fucking sucks if it's not custodial.

1:31:57

It's tough. Yep.

1:31:59

So we end up in this weird fucking situation,

1:32:02

where he's doing KYC. And he's doing KYC, but it's it's like KYC.

1:32:09

I mean, it's doing email verification. It's still KYC. Yeah. But it's still KYC.

1:32:13

Is it it's attaching it to m pups, and that fucking sucks. Like, I I don't pretend that doesn't. Like, if if you think, like I woke up this morning. I was like, that fucking sucks. Like, that was my first thought this morning. Yeah. Like, I woke up next to my beautiful wife.

1:32:29

Like, I had my 2 dogs my 3 dogs You are the meme.

1:32:34

You know? Yeah. She's like, what is he thinking about? I was just like Exactly. Primal KYC. Primal KYC.

1:32:41

That's what I woke up thinking about. Yeah.

1:32:44

Yep. Again, I this is lit like, you just literally spelled out the trade offs. And and, like, that's

1:32:51

being a founder is the hardest job in the world because, 1, you're doing something that's never been done before or or at least you should be.

1:32:57

And 2, you know, the buck stops with you, and you are left with a bunch of really hard choices that that are basically suck. And, you know, I have worked in a bunch of startups. I ran my own startup. I advise founders. And, like, I've had a bunch of conversations the last week where it was literally like,

1:33:14

okay. You know, after the samurai situation, like, what are you guys thinking? And Yeah. Almost all those conversations are basically the same. It's like, here are 2 really shitty, horrible decisions

1:33:24

or paths that we can take. They both suck. They're both horrible. We don't wanna do either. We just wanna be left the fuck alone so we can build this really cool thing we wanna build. But we have to make a choice one way or the other so we don't go to jail. Yeah. You don't wanna have, like, regulatory

1:33:40

action by SWAT team.

1:33:42

Right. Exactly. Like, we don't want our door kicked in. We don't We wanna keep building this thing in some version. Like, maybe it's not quite the version we had in mind, but, like, we wanna build some version of it, and we wanna be able to help rather than sit in jail.

1:33:54

And so, like, for all the people out there that yell about, oh, like, you know, just tell them to go fuck off and, like, do whatever you want. Like, it doesn't technically work like that. Like, yes. Some things,

1:34:06

you know, you have to be very, very careful about where you apply that sort of force.

1:34:10

And if you want a system that's going to be for normal people to use and you want it to be super easy and really approachable

1:34:17

and easily easy to understand, like, Like, you're gonna have to swallow some of those bitter pills. Like, it's just a fact. And so I don't like, again, like, I kind of I don't look at that and go, oh, like, million has failed us. Like, you know, Pranula is, you know, such a bad tool. I just go, it's a certain type of tool for a certain type of user. And if you're the type of user that that you really hate POIC, there's plenty of other tools over here for you. Like, you know and that's the beauty of Nostra is we have the choice.

1:34:43

Yeah. The beauty of Nostra is you can literally leave

1:34:45

and Exactly. Choose a different tool. And I will still see your notes, and I could still Exactly. Engage with your notes. And, like

1:34:53

yeah. And and and the negative

1:34:57

the negative is and this is one of the reasons why I've been so focused on OpenSats,

1:35:02

is the negative is is there aren't really tools

1:35:06

that work as well. You know? I I had,

1:35:12

like, a full dev team, like,

1:35:17

NostredevIlluminati dispatch,

1:35:22

with Fiat Jeff and Pablo.

1:35:25

Mhmm.

1:35:27

And I was like

1:35:28

and Huddl bot. I was like Yeah. We

1:35:32

I was like, I think primal is the best place for someone to start. Like, okay. Do you guys have a response to that? And they're like, yeah. Yeah. No problem. It's the best place to start start. Yeah.

1:35:42

It's like we just don't like, it works. It works really well.

1:35:46

Turns out it's really hard to build software that's beautiful and easy to use. Like, it's really, really fucking hard. It's a difficult problem to solve. Yeah. You know? So, like, again, I mean, I think,

1:35:58

again, you're taking trade offs. Right? Like and this is the reason, like, most people don't use,

1:36:03

you know, Lightning in a noncustodial way. Most people don't, you know, wanna have to figure out, like, how do Bitcoin transactions work. You know? Like, they they only do these things when they really, really need to. And that's why you see most of the adoption on a lot of this stuff from places that don't have a functioning, you know, finance system. Because if you've grown up with, you know, PayPal is even a pile of crap, but, like, it still functions. It's still bad. Yeah. It's terrible. But, like, you know, if you grew up with Venmo and PayPal and and, like, Revolut, and you're like, oh, yeah. I just make instant transactions between my bank accounts, and it's fine. It's no big deal. Like, you don't see the need. And so it's the same, you know, in in this sort of situation. It's like, if you're expecting to have a consumer grade experience with this new social media thing that people are trying to get you to use, and then you try to use it, and it's, like, 20 minutes of pain and suffering, and you still have no idea what the fuck is going on. Like, you're never gonna look at it again.

1:36:54

Or maybe it'll you know, if it's super successful, you'll bump into it years later, and you'll be like, oh, yeah. I tried this way back in the day and, like, couldn't figure anything out. Now it looks a little bit better.

1:37:04

What do you think about

1:37:09

and this is something I've wrestled with in Bitcoin land for a while,

1:37:13

but now in Nostriland as well, specifically with primal.

1:37:17

This idea of mainstream adoption

1:37:21

versus fuck you, only the writer dies matter,

1:37:25

which I kind of did adopt because

1:37:29

I just deleted my Twitter. Exactly. And Oscar's only ride or dies.

1:37:34

But Yeah. Should Nastr only focus on the ride or dies, or should we be focused on trying to get

1:37:42

new users? Because, I mean, I think that solves it. If you agree that

1:37:47

only the right or dies matter, then we don't even need primal as a client,

1:37:53

because, like, clearly, primal is trying to solve the

1:37:57

TikTok user or the LinkedIn user like you,

1:38:00

or or the or the Twitter user.

1:38:04

They're trying to solve that problem where

1:38:06

like, Milan's trying to solve that problem where, like, you're comparing it

1:38:10

to traditional social networks and bring it in.

1:38:15

I I see Pablo. Yeah. Pablo,

1:38:18

you should just Fight me a good fight over here. Pablo, by the way, you're welcome to join every single civil dispatch. It doesn't matter what we're talking about. We can be talking about, like, whales.

1:38:26

You know, I I won't have a dispatch about whales, but if we hypothetically had a dispatch about whales and I only had whale experts on, you're still welcome to join.

1:38:36

But he's saying a false dichotomy, massive false dichotomy.

1:38:40

Of course, don't have to choose. I mean, it is a false dichotomy, but at the same time, I get the angle of the question, which is,

1:38:48

like, is our job to try to convince the entire world that we're right and that they should come over and join us?

1:38:55

Or should we just be like, nah. We're cool. We got our own thing, and we can just move on with our you know, we'll just be over here doing our thing. And I think the unfortunate fact is that,

1:39:07

they're not gonna leave us alone. Like, they're not gonna let us do what we wanna do.

1:39:11

If I thought that was the case, I would definitely be in the 2nd camp, and I'd be like, no. We're all moving to wherever it is, Madera or Costa Rica, and we're all just gonna chill together, and they're literally gonna leave us the fuck alone.

1:39:21

I would pick up and move the family immediately. But,

1:39:24

like, it's just not the world we live in. And so I think more and more, we are like, we've benefited from flying under the radar for many years here,

1:39:34

and I think that's given us enough time to build something that's effectively unstoppable, hopefully.

1:39:39

But we're in a situation now where we're gonna have to interface with a large chunk of the world if we wanna continue to, you know, be able to do the things we wanna do. And

1:39:48

to some degree, that is going to require us to, if not get everybody on board, at least get them to recognize that, like, you know, this is a reasonable thing to do and a reasonable thing to want to work on, and, you know, there's no reason to stop it.

1:40:03

And so it's not that we have to convince everybody to join and, you know, get everybody to quit TikTok and Twitter,

1:40:09

but it is, like, really, really important that we, like, know that the game we're playing and, like, know that it's not just what we wanna do that matters.

1:40:17

You know, like, they can make things very, very uncomfortable.

1:40:22

They can't ban it. They can't totally stop it. They'll never be able to, but they can definitely make things uncomfortable.

1:40:29

Jeff, who is they? Yeah. All of them. The people that mostly the US government. Let's be honest. Okay. Mostly the US government, the European government, and all of the international agencies that, are in their pockets.

1:40:44

I agree.

1:40:48

Like,

1:40:49

you know, they they are they benefit from all of this. Right? Like, they benefit from all the hegemony. They benefit from all of everything.

1:40:56

Are they still talking about whales?

1:40:58

Yeah. The live chat is,

1:41:00

we will now have a civil dispatch folks on whales, and I think Pablo is joining for

1:41:06

it. Excellent. Walester. I mean, honestly We've got a new client. Walester is on the way. Like, if you don't care about whales, do you even care? Like, what like, I think whales like, if you talk about, like, foundational elements of society, I think whales are, like, the base

1:41:21

of all society was built on top of whale law. I mean, they are big. Yeah.

1:41:27

They are large. They are large they are large creatures.

1:41:33

I mean, the live chat is is what makes this show special. So shout out to the freaks

1:41:38

who Jonas in the live chat. By the way, I think we're nearly about to wrap up, but

1:41:44

if you're watching this through Twitter or YouTube, the real live chat is at sale dispatch.com/streampoweredbyzapstream,

1:41:53

which requires a nostril account, but you can create one

1:41:56

in the browser. So you don't even have to know what nostril is.

1:42:01

And it just it just fucking works.

1:42:03

Back to those disposable in pubs.

1:42:06

Yeah. Disposable in pubs. I think I think there's a weird

1:42:10

oh, oh, so I have a hard question for you, Jeff.

1:42:13

Okay. Since, honestly, like, you really failed on the hard look.

1:42:18

You sprung it on me. Okay? Yeah. You sprung it on me. I don't actually know you that well either, so it's, like, not even how am I gonna get a hard question? We have friends of friends. You know? We do have friends of friends. We're friends. Should've known better. Yeah. We're basically friend like, way closer than Kevin Bacon system or whatever. 6 Very very much though. We're one degree.

1:42:37

We're one degree friends. One degree from multiple angles. You're totally correct. Right? Like, you were seeing me, like, we're basically best friends. Will come with a very, very hard question for you. We're basically best friends.

1:42:49

I have a hard question for you. So Carnage

1:42:52

had a great post, shout out, Carnage,

1:42:56

about Noster. How will people react

1:43:02

when the big mega corp start monetizing your data?

1:43:09

I think it's inevitable. Like, I think,

1:43:13

and it's weird that I'm asking you the hard question. I'm answering it, but I'm gonna answer it.

1:43:18

I think it's inevitable. Like, I think

1:43:20

the most monetizable dataset in the world is going to be

1:43:25

Nostopro's. It's gonna be signed Nostopro's

1:43:28

in the age of AI, Like, cryptographically

1:43:32

verifiable proofs of of of what you think are gonna be the most monetizable things in the world. And it's broadcast to the world and you have easy access to it. It's not closed behind walled gardens of x or LinkedIn or

1:43:47

Reddit. Every single centralized platform except for TikTok

1:43:51

right now is closing their doors and making sure that people don't have access to it. And TikTok has the additional benefit that the CCP is trying to boost adoption.

1:44:01

Right. How do you think about that? Like,

1:44:06

what what is your opinion on Mega Corp's

1:44:10

monetizing Noster data?

1:44:15

Well, mega corps are gonna mega corp. Like, they're definitely gonna do it 100%. Like, it's not even gonna that's not even a question on my mind. They probably I mean,

1:44:23

we're still small, so that would be the only reason I would say they probably haven't gotten there yet. It's just because they're like, oh, there's this thing we should try to mess with, you know, tomorrow or next week or whatever, But no one's gotten there yet. But,

1:44:34

I mean, it's gonna happen. And and I think, like, that's a good reason for everybody on Noster now to be,

1:44:39

you know, thinking a little bit about, you know, what is it that they're putting out there in the world,

1:44:46

and and how are they doing it? You know, back to our earlier thing, like, you know, you only have privacy if you keep privacy, and you don't just immediately, you know, live completely in in the, you know, public sphere. So

1:45:00

I guess it doesn't really necessarily bother me. I guess the only thing that really bothers me about it is that, like,

1:45:07

you know, those large platforms and those mega corps are mega corps because they are tollbooths. You know, all the like, the whole of web 2 was literally built on this idea that, you know, we're gonna aggregate audiences,

1:45:17

then we're gonna build a choke point, and we're gonna just monetize like crazy on that choke point. And we're the only ones that are you know, have that availability.

1:45:26

And I feel like this is another one of those situations where we're providing them with tons and tons of data that they can then aggregate,

1:45:34

And then they're gonna build a, tollboob stop. They're gonna build a checkpoint. They're gonna build a choke point again to say, okay.

1:45:40

You know, you advertisers, you wanna be able to advertise to these people. Well, we figured out how to get to them.

1:45:46

We've built these special bots that operate on Nostra and, you know, x, y, and z. I guess the one thing that I I have hope on that whole situation there is is that we still have total control to build whatever we want on Nostr. And so it's not like Google where you wanna get the benefit, you're gonna have to look at the ads, or Facebook where they're just gonna mix it in, you know, to all the stuff with your friends.

1:46:07

You have total freedom to switch to whatever client you want. You have total freedom to use whatever tool you want. Your identity and your data can go wherever you would like it to go.

1:46:16

But that data, if you leave it public, is definitely gonna be used in the public sphere as publicly open data.

1:46:24

Yeah. Damn right. Like,

1:46:26

that's the argument. A 100 percent the argument. The argument is,

1:46:30

is you're going to monetize me regardless. So I'm just going to allow anyone to monetize me.

1:46:36

And well, and also. You have all the data.

1:46:39

Yeah. It's cryptographically signed monetize at will.

1:46:42

Yes.

1:46:43

Monetize at will. But also, like, I don't have to also look at whatever you're doing. I don't have to suffer, you know, using your shitty products with all of your ads

1:46:52

because, you know, you've taken this data. And I think, honestly, like, that probably sort of breaks the tollbooth

1:46:58

model because if they don't have you captured there,

1:47:01

then them having information about, you know, you through your posts

1:47:05

doesn't really make it easy for them to, you know, make a case to their,

1:47:11

to their customers that, like, hey. You you wanna advertise with us because, you know, we can advertise to these people. No. You actually can't. Like, they can just just as easily leave and never see your posts. Yeah. Like, some random schmuck in Thailand can have the same exact data.

1:47:24

Exactly. Yeah. Right. Exactly. You're

1:47:27

missing the point.

1:47:28

The point oh, come on. Harry's getting Good. I like this. Why why is Harry getting involved? You're missing the point. So the Okay. The other component is that it's not just about

1:47:39

the social graph user map data. It's the combination of the social graph user map data with the algorithm in order to reserve

1:47:47

the same user base back to itself. Right? You you have to human centipede

1:47:53

the social platform in order to monetize the data properly because,

1:47:58

really, it's not just the ass where the data comes out. You gotta give it back to the mouth

1:48:03

where you actually monetize it again.

1:48:07

Yes. But the only way to monetize that data is if you, as a user, are forced to go through their platform for one reason or another. Right? Like, you've got I mean, in in Google's case, like, you wanna use Google search, you wanna use Google Maps, you wanna use Gmail, you're gonna see their ads. You wanna use you wanna see what your grandma is saying, you're gonna go to Facebook. You wanna like, you know what I mean? Like, the only reason they've got the captive audience to show that stuff back to and force feed us is because

1:48:31

we're stuck. Exactly. It Yeah. And so I think that's the piece that Nostra breaks apart.

1:48:36

To totally totally agree. But I think, like, the the critical piece is, like, the the,

1:48:42

the product is fused into the monetization mechanism. It's not just the user data that informs the monetization.

1:48:49

It's the it's the it's the decoupling.

1:48:52

Right. Right.

1:48:54

I think we're saying the same thing. I agree with you. Okay. Excellent. I'm glad we had this talk.

1:49:00

Sorry.

1:49:01

No. That was great.

1:49:02

Love it. Let the record show that I I flipped my ear cup and then rested against his ear so that he could hear your response.

1:49:12

Very good. I have one more question for you, Jeff, and then we'll wrap it, and we'll ask you for your final thoughts.

1:49:19

Pablo said in the comments, you're not asking the hard questions. You didn't ask him about Fetti. Do you know what that means? Do you wanna ask me?

1:49:30

Tell me about what you think about Fetty.

1:49:33

What I I mean, that's Oh, okay. Let I don't see. This isn't really hard okay. Maybe this is a hard question for you.

1:49:41

Tell me what you think about ECASH. Is it,

1:49:44

both Fedi and Cashew? Are they useful things that people should be spending time on, or do you think they're distractions?

1:49:51

I think they're incredibly useful.

1:49:54

Okay. I don't know a problem with that one. You have nothing else? Do you not like do you not like FETI for some reason? No. I mean, I'm we're first of all, 1031 is investors in FETI. In regards to issuing money and So So I thought it had something to do with that.

1:50:10

Well, I mean Are you gonna, you know, you're gonna wait for Pablo to tell you what you saw?

1:50:15

Oh, like, them just being fucked in the sense. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I get it. What do you think is gonna happen to Fetti? Like, do you think they're gonna be able to find a way around this Okay.

1:50:23

Current situation? I'm not gonna speculate

1:50:26

about portfolio companies, how they handle this regulatory environment

1:50:31

on air. That would be dumb.

1:50:35

That would be a stupid thing to do. Yes. I will say

1:50:41

that I think Charming e cash is good for the world.

1:50:47

I think Bitcoin powered Charming e cash is a powerful force for good

1:50:52

in the world. I agree. And I will say that from the very early days

1:50:58

before FETI existed as a company,

1:51:01

before immunity existed as a company,

1:51:03

I thought that was the case. I think

1:51:06

our civil dispatch with Eric Sirion,

1:51:10

and I say our as in me, my civil dispatch

1:51:14

with Eric Syrian was a

1:51:17

pivotal point in terms of the e cash development.

1:51:21

And I think it's fucking awesome. Like, it's just great. And I think it's really cool how you can, like, link shit to end pubs,

1:51:31

and you can do, like, native shit. There's, like, a bunch of like, I think the closest thing to, like, native Nostril payments is e cash. Yes. Yep.

1:51:40

The problem is obviously, like, who is the custodians?

1:51:43

Like, who is, like, handling that shit? I think that's where FEDAMET is really interesting.

1:51:49

Mhmm. I will say 1031 is given no strings attached grants

1:51:53

to both FEDAMET and Cali for Fedimant and Cashew,

1:52:01

where they were in investments. Like, we just took a portion of management fees, and and and we gave grants towards them because

1:52:08

we think it's better for all of us. And, like, it it's not it's not just altruism

1:52:14

reason. We we we think it benefits the whole ecosystem. We think it benefits our, quote, unquote, investments.

1:52:21

And so when I say to Saylor,

1:52:24

like, why aren't you supporting open source contributors?

1:52:27

I can also say, I do for my pocket.

1:52:31

Right? Like, I actually practice what I preach. I'm not just,

1:52:36

you know, just some random ass fucking board member that makes no money that's just, like, preaching,

1:52:41

quote, unquote communism or whatever he wants to pretend it is.

1:52:47

So that's that's where we are right now. But I would say that, like, e cash

1:52:53

is massive. Like, anyone who's sleeping on e cash is

1:52:58

they're missing out. They're missing out. Like, the development that Cali is doing, the development that the Federman open source contributors are doing is is fucking massive.

1:53:07

The the aspect of of, like, creating the federated e cache

1:53:12

is actually really fucking complicated.

1:53:14

Yes. People don't I don't think people realize how complicated it is, which is one of the reasons why Casio has been able to develop

1:53:21

so quickly. Yep. But it's awesome because we do need it right now.

1:53:27

But I I think I think, really, the future is

1:53:32

Federated ECASH. I think the I think the future is

1:53:36

multisig, you know, sovereign banks, essentially,

1:53:42

that that cannot see what their account holders are doing.

1:53:47

And that is that is what Federman is in, like that's, like, suit lingo for what Federman is. It's like Well, but it's also exactly what Cashew is. Right? Like, I mean, just add a multisig, and it's I mean, it's not as quite the same as the federation, but it's, you know, it is similar.

1:54:02

And they are banks. And, like, that's the thing. It's,

1:54:05

this is I think the scariest thing right now is that, yes, I agree with all those statements that it's fucking amazing and it's the future and all that, and I think it's also the most at risk

1:54:15

part of the ecosystem at the moment. And also, like,

1:54:20

God bless the people that run them because

1:54:24

it takes it's like even if you are

1:54:27

if if you're everyone always focuses on, like, the bad actors. Right? They're like,

1:54:33

oh, like, if you're a bad actor, you can just rug, a cashew man. Well, what about the good actors?

1:54:39

Like, the good actors have massive mental burden,

1:54:42

massive economic burden. Like, there's a real burden on these people.

1:54:49

If it's a single sig, if it's a cashew fucking mint,

1:54:53

fucking substantial. Like, significant.

1:54:56

If it's a sediment, still. It's still substantial. But it's it's a little bit less so because maybe it's a 3 or 5, maybe it's a 2 or 3, whatever it is.

1:55:06

It's substantial. And, like, people just assume, like, other people will operate that for them. And I would say to you, be the change you wanna see in the world. Like, it's fucking ridiculous.

1:55:17

Yep. But I do think that's probably where we're heading. You don't have to it doesn't require protocol changes, which is key.

1:55:26

Yep. I've been in Bitcoin long enough where I just don't assume protocol changes.

1:55:31

People think, like, oh, like, oh, oh, that's the guy that supports open source contributors. Like, he just, like, believes in soft forks left and right.

1:55:38

He's like, no. No. I don't. I know there's a lot of work

1:55:42

that doesn't involve soft forks. I actually do not support soft forks.

1:55:46

For most situations, I think we should be slow and steady about it.

1:55:52

But yeah. There's a whole lot we can do without a soft fork with with e cash. So Yeah. Man but but it's a shit ton of liability for the people that run that shit. So, like, just have in several directions. Like, it's not just the liability of, like, don't mess it up and lose people's money. It's, like, a bunch of other liability that,

1:56:09

we're seeing the sharp end of recently.

1:56:11

Exactly.

1:56:13

Exactly. Yeah. But I I think Fedimint are are particularly cool because you have this, like, multisig element to it.

1:56:21

Right? Like, it's not just a single person. And it shouldn't be it it really

1:56:26

like, if we can avoid it, it shouldn't be a single person.

1:56:30

And I I don't think Cali necessarily disagrees with that. No. I think he just realizes that it's way easier to develop

1:56:38

if you just exclude that variable.

1:56:41

Yes.

1:56:42

And he just push it he just pushes forward. And I respect the fact that he pushes forward. And I would say, like,

1:56:50

all it takes is, like we could have

1:56:54

we could fund a 1,000 developers

1:56:56

through open sets. We I mean, maybe maybe that's bearish.

1:57:01

Maybe we fund 10,000 developers through open sets.

1:57:04

But all it takes is, like, 5 or 6 people. Like, it's 5 or 6

1:57:09

of those people that actually, like, get shit done

1:57:13

and, like, push through changes that matter to the world. And if and if those 5 or 6 people get funded and supported and

1:57:23

and and have backing, then then our grandchildren live in a way, way, way better world

1:57:29

than we currently live in today. And and that's why I'm focused sides.

1:57:34

Yeah. Yep.

1:57:36

Makes total sense.

1:57:38

Damn right, Jeff. You you're horrible at asking hard questions. I know. I'll work hard. You've been a great guest. You've been a great guest.

1:57:45

Jeff, do you have any final thoughts before we wrap?

1:57:49

I'm really interested to hear the whale episode with Pablo.

1:57:53

I mean, he has told me in private, maybe I shouldn't dox this, but he's told me he knows quite a few whale calls. So make sure to ask him about that when he gets on, you know, gets on the call.

1:58:03

No. Really, like, actual final thoughts.

1:58:05

Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any new contributors

1:58:07

or something to all the amazing open source projects you're working on? Like, what do you mean? Yes, absolutely.

1:58:12

Like one, I've been a horrible absentee landlord on Nastr. Howe. I think that is, like we talked about before, you know, great. It gets a lot of traffic.

1:58:22

It is totally meant to help, you know, new people to Nostra just, you know, do it easier and better.

1:58:29

I wanna have it in a ton of languages. I think it's in, like, 8 or 9 languages already, but I'd love more, and I would also just love more content there. So you're nontechnical and you're looking for a place to help, like, please, that's a great place.

1:58:41

I think and as well, like, you know, anybody that is wanting to get into it with the on the DM stuff,

1:58:47

I'm, like, actively looking for people to come and poke holes in this. Because, again, like I said, I hope this is used in really high stakes environments eventually,

1:58:55

and I want it to be super, super secure and, you know, be something that we can set one time and be like, alright. We we figured this out. We're done with this section. We can move on to the next thing. We don't have to think about DMs anymore, at least for a while.

1:59:11

Well, Jeff, thank you for joining us.

1:59:17

You're welcome. Say something? Well, I was about to say something, and I looked over, and I was like, nustr.how is in rust? No. It's not written in rust.

1:59:25

I wanna I just wanted to thank the freaks for joining us in the live chat. As always Yeah. All the links are still dispatch.com.

1:59:34

But but the live chat freaks are the ones who make the show run.

1:59:37

You guys are the hosts alongside me.

1:59:41

And if you listen to any civil dispatch, you'd realize that is truly the case,

1:59:46

because I read every single post you post,

1:59:50

and I don't moderate any of this shit.

1:59:52

So thank you. I also wanted to obviously thank the freaks who support the show with sats,

2:00:00

with Bitcoin. We don't have any sponsors.

2:00:04

So unlike other Bitcoin shows,

2:00:08

I don't just, like, randomly support what whoever pays me the most money. I, like, ride or die with them till the end,

2:00:17

to to who I agree with, to who I think is is is the best product. And I might be fucking wrong, but at least I fucking

2:00:26

go with the with the guys that I think are providing a solid product.

2:00:31

Not on Dispatch, but on our HR, we do have sponsors. But I I I try and focus on the good sponsors. But the point is dispatch has no sponsors. Thank you for supporting us with Bitcoin. We have natgas immersion with a 100 k sats,

2:00:46

and we have at gunnerson. Our Gunson what is it? It's it's coming around. It's coming around. Let's wait. Let's wait for it to come around. Where is it coming? We have Natgas Oh, spinning around at the bottom. Immersion. Yeah. With a 100 k sats, and we have at Gunson

2:01:01

with a 121,000 sats. Thank you, Freaks, for supporting us.

2:01:07

But I know sats are scarce. If you can't support us that way,

2:01:12

share with friends and family. We're on every podcast app. We're on YouTube until we get banned. We're on Twitter until we get banned.

2:01:21

I should probably just get rid of the Twitter, and, like, no one really engages with it.

2:01:26

But I deleted my personal Twitter account. I felt like it was enough. But, maybe, I'll delete that Twitter account. But we're on YouTube. You just search YouTube.

2:01:34

Keep in mind, YouTube, does hit me with copyright violations

2:01:41

very often. So you will not get the video,

2:01:45

the music video that's about to play.

2:01:47

Jeff, thank you for joining.

2:01:50

Thank you so much. It's been great fun. Did you enjoy it? Was it fun? I did. I did. I can't wait for your next round. That's awesome.

2:01:56

We're gonna be talking about tomorrow at 1790 UTC. We're gonna be talking about Bitcoin design with the Bitcoin Design Foundation.

2:02:03

They're trying to get their legs off their

2:02:07

they're they're they're trying to make shit happen over there in in Bitcoin design,

2:02:12

which is hard. It's hard enough in open source development. It's even harder in design. No one no one really gives a shit about design. We're gonna make it sexy. We're gonna make it exciting. We're gonna have a fun conversation.

2:02:22

Join us tomorrow at 1700 UTC.

2:02:25

And then I have Matt from start 9,

2:02:28

start OS. We're gonna be talking about start OS, cell phone, sting, all that stuff

2:02:32

at 1700 UTC next Friday.

2:02:36

And I'm gonna be traveling, visiting my grandma,

2:02:40

my son's great grandmother, and we're gonna have a fun time. Jeff.

2:02:45

Amazing. Thank you. I appreciate you. You're welcome, man. Thank you for all you do. Keep pushing. Appreciate you. Peace.

2:02:52

See you.

2:03:29

Ten soldiers and Nixon

2:03:31

current, we're

2:07:50

Love you, freaks.

2:07:51

That was Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young.

2:07:55

At Wembley in London

2:07:57

1974. Pretty crazy.

2:08:02

Well, time capsule into the past.

2:08:06

I'll see you freaks tomorrow. 1700 UTC.

2:08:12

For you American freaks, that's 1 PM EST,

2:08:16

noon CST. It'll be a fun time.

2:08:20

Jeff is fucking awesome. I hope you enjoyed it,

2:08:23

and, keep pushing forward. Stay on for success.