Join us in this episode of the Class E Podcast as we dive into the extraordinary journey of Callie Goodwin, the mastermind behind a thriving greeting card company born out of the challenges of the pandemic. From a humble start during quarantine to becoming a household name on TikTok, Callie shares her inspirational story of turning isolation into innovation. With her background in education and social work, Callie's path to entrepreneurship was unexpected but undeniably rewarding. Tune in to discover how she navigated obstacles like funding shortages and leveraged the power of social media to skyrocket her business. From viral TikTok campaigns to unexpected partnerships, Callie's journey is a testament to the resilience and creativity of small business owners everywhere. Join us as we explore the highs, the lows, and the invaluable lessons learned along the way. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking inspiration, practical tips, and a glimpse into the limitless possibilities of entrepreneurship in the digital age.

Guest: Callie Goodwin. Founder Sparks of Joy  

Host: Mary Sturgill

Producer: Isabella Martinez 

 

Transcript:

MARY: Hi there, everyone. Welcome to this episode of the Class E Podcast. I am your host, Mary Sturgil. This podcast is brought to you in partnership between the Hill Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship and the Communication Studies Department here at Furman University. And today we have a very special guest…you may know her from Tik Tok and some Tik Tok ads. It's Callie Goodwin, who is the founder of the greeting card company, Sparks of Joy. Callie, welcome to our show.

CALLIE: Hi! Thank you so much for having me. 

MARY: Callie, I want to start with… Do you remember the first time that we met in person? Because we’ve known each other for a while though.

CALLIE: It's been quite a while. I was helping film in Columbia. I don't know what year it was. But it's been quite a while.

MARY: It's been at least seven years probably. Yeah. Yeah. I was still in news. I was still a news anchor. And Callie had this drone and I was you know me, I'm a gadget girl. And so I went up to her and I was like, oh, show me what you're doing. Like we were just talking off air that we were flying drones and we didn't really know any of the rules back then. So we just flew them all over the place.

CALLIE: I look back now and I'm like, Ooh, yeah, we were definitely breaking some rules then. But honestly before… it was still the wild wild west of drones. 

MARY: You were on the cutting edge then and now you're on the cutting edge again. That's your life. 

CALLIE: I like to live on the edge.

MARY: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So tell us a little bit about Sparks of Joy for people who might not have seen your TikTok ad because your TikTok ad… I say TikTok ad guys but it is all over TV right now.

CALLIE: Yeah, so Sparks of Joy started as a pre stamped greeting card company in the middle of the pandemic. I bought a house the summer 2020, moved in, was exposed to COVID had to quarantine and during that two weeks was going stir crazy. Neighbor dropped off a handwritten card and some brownies. And that handwritten card like really kind of sparked this idea of like, I want to send out cards out with my new address like I finally have an address on my own. But I realized that I didn't know what boxes my cards were in. And I didn't have any stamps. And so I used that two week quarantine period to start a business. I design all my own cards. And then we pre stamp the cards so that our customers don't have to or don't have to try to track down stamps at the post office so it has grown I started my TikTok right as I started my business and now it's grown into this massive account and this like really cool opportunity to partner with TikTok on these things. And I never would have dreamed that this loneliness of my brand new house would have turned into this three years later.

MARY: Right and so the…let's back up a little bit and talk about your education because everything that you've done in your education so far is geared toward education. For kids right?

CALLIE: So I thought I wanted to be a preschool teacher growing up. I worked in preschool for seven years. So I got my Associates in early childhood. And then I transferred to Columbia College and got my Bachelor's in social work, essentially social work, and decided that's not what I wanted to do. I began working at Columbia College doing social media and got my master's in higher ed administration. And now here I am, I work for a social media app for high schoolers going into college. So still kind of like higher ed adjacent, but also run a greeting card company.

MARY: Right. So you're doing social media and you're a master at social media by the way. You're doing social media for them and you're running this company that has just literally blown up. How did it come to be that Tik Tok contacted you and said we want you to be in this for us.

CALLIE: So I retold the story recently or was talking with the people that this all started with. It started in the spring of 2022. So we actually got a very kind of vague sketch email from TikTok that was like, Hey, we're working on a new upcoming project. If you think you might be interested in being part of this vague project that we can't tell you information about, like fill out this Google form. And I clicked it and like it really was just a basic Google form asking about my business and I'm like, well, nothing I'm sharing here is like proprietary information that they can’t like find on my website. So I filled it out. And three months later, they got the green light from legal to start this. It was called TikTok Impact and showing the impact of TikTok on small businesses. So they got the green light to start it and so it started as a website with about I think 10 to 20 of us, representing 10 states. And that rolled into the first campaign with TikTok, which was South Carolina based…a couple of billboards and newspaper ads and stuff that ran in October of 2022. And then thought that was it… thought the campaign was done. And then I was contacted in July of 2023 by a production company, they're like, Hey, we think you're a good fit for a project again, super vague. We can't tell you the client. Like are you interested? And I'm like, sure we've done this before and it's been great. So sure, let's try it again. Turns out the client was TikTok again. But it was a much bigger scale. So it involved filming this commercial, they came to my house. I think there was like 13 or 14 different production team members that came out and we filmed all day long. And then this is part of a national campaign so it's rolled out. I think the commercial is rolled out to South Carolina at this moment, but will continue to roll out nationwide. And then it also included billboards in places like… Vegas is covered. I think there's like 13 or 14 in Vegas. Times Square, the New York subway system… all around South Carolina and it's been really cool to watch that grow.

MARY: Yeah I love on your Instagram when you put your…. you took a picture of yourself in front of your billboard in Times Square.

CALLIE: Yeah, we went up for my birthday in December and I was like, told my parents we have to go to Times Square to see this. It's just surreal to see yourself in public on these advertisements. So I just flew to Washington DC. And I saw myself in the airport like on the screens and I was like, Oh wait, that's me like, and nobody else around me like notices in this moment that I'm standing here like in all of this ad and everyone else is just going about their busy day, but I'm like, right. Oh my gosh, I'm on this giant screen like that's crazy. 

MARY: Yeah,I know that feeling. The first time I saw we had a billboard for one of my stations that I worked at when I was broadcasting. And the first time I saw one of our billboards I had to like stop. I've literally pulled up on the side of the highway. Like oh my god, that's huge.

CALLIE: The first night that somebody texted me that the billboards were live in Columbia, because I didn't know that that was part of this campaign. So somebody's like, I just saw a billboard of you and I'm like, What are you talking about? They're like, Oh, yeah, it’s over onForest drive and it actually was not on Forest drive. It was somewhere completely different. They got the location wrong. So I'm driving around Columbia, like just looking for myself. And yeah, it's probably crazy, but it’s a lot of fun.

MARY: I love that. But I do want to point out to our listeners that this is a prime example… I do a workshop sometimes for women entrepreneurs who… how to get your story told. Right? And so let me ask this question… was anything… did you have to pay for any of this? 

CALLIE: Not a penny. 

MARY: Exactly. So saying yes to things will get you free advertisement. Right? Now, of course, there are a lot of scams out there. So do be careful about that kind of stuff and kind of use the techniques that Callie used to say, Okay, this is just business stuff that I'm giving them, right? 

CALLIE: Absolutely. 

MARY: And then you can always do your background checks, make, make the phone calls, send the emails, you know, do whatever you need to do to check the background of things like this. But let's talk about how this has blown up your business.

CALLIE: Yes, so, through the first campaign, we ended up getting verified on Tik Tok and being able to reach a large amount of people and through that campaign, rolled into the opportunity to… so that started with the vague sketchy email to begin with, which then turned into the first South Carolina campaign, which then rolled into the opportunity to speak at South by Southwest last March on a panel with TikTok which led to go into DC with TikTok, which led to like this campaign, and so saying yes, at all these points, continues to just open doors. But yes, I think I missed the rest of your question there.

MARY: I think you got it. Saying yes to one thing opened all those other doors. South by Southwest is huge, you know, being able to go to DC all off this one, you know, thing that you said yes to was really the catalyst for all of that, right. So, let's talk about the art just a little bit because you were an art major, right. And how does that play into part of your personality, part of who you are and into the whole thing?

CALLIE: Yeah, it's been cool to be able to take some of these designs that you don't see represented in greeting cards every day. And I know again, like I always tell people like you, if I can succeed on Tik Tok, you can succeed on TikTok. I am selling greeting cards in a digital world. Like people don't send mail, people love to receive mail, but don't take the time to send mail. And so the fact that we've sold over 50,000 cards in the last three years is proof that like people want that connection, they want human connection. And I think a big thing is like people like to purchase from me because I show myself on my account a lot. I also share not just business stuff, but I I share a little bit of the personal side. We talk about mental health. We talked about behind the scenes of packing orders and so people connect on a personal level there and feel like they're supporting a person in a business. And that's something they could get behind. 

MARY: Yeah, I think you bring up another good point with that because part of marketing yourself on social media and you just gave us a tactic right there. Right. So it's not all about the business. It's not all about buy buy buy this right. It's about sharing and connecting on a personal level.

CALLIE: Absolutely. So originally I had gone back and privated all at the beginning of my TikTok because they were so cringy I couldn't even like stand to see them on my account. They were… it was bad. I was just watching the waters…. and I had to go back and unhide them because the reality is like I didn't want to minimize, like how rough the start was, like sure we're at 113,000 followers now. But we weren't there at the beginning. And we started small. We started cringy it took a while to find our stride. And when I did, it really changed when I started getting on camera and being myself and realizing like, I am not going to be equal to the people that have millions of followers like I don't have the pretty perfect setup. This is me in my garage selling greeting cards and so once I found what was unique to me and just like the fact that like this is who I am and embracing that, like that's when we saw growth because I got comfortable with who I was instead of just trying to be everybody else. 

MARY: Yeah. Wow. What you just said is so powerful. Right there. I think that being comfortable with who you are and finding the power within yourself can transcend any area of our life. But at the same time holds us back from all areas as well. Right? If we don't have those feelings. Even in my own daily life I catch myself ... .that self talk, you know that we have that Oh, I shouldn't do this because I don't have this or I don't do this right. And, boy, I need to take your advice today. And I know somebody listening does too. Wow. 

CALLIE: I often have to remind myself that especially as my account grows larger, I find myself hesitating before I post up I'm like Ooh, is this worth the post? Like is this gonna fit things and I realize I'm like, that's not how we got here. And that's not how we're going to continue to grow if I'm if I stray away from where like what our tried and true like method is so yeah, everything doesn't have to be perfectly filmed. My hair always looks like a disaster. It's always a frizzy mess. Usually whatever t shirt I wear for the day, or I slept in and just showing whatever I'm working on really connects with people,

MARY: Yeah whatever part of your life that it is for that moment. Yeah, yeah. You also brought up the fact that you started with… You know, I mean, everybody has to start somewhere. Right? And so with the followers on Tiktok, you started with small followers with a small number of followers and then that grew over time, the more that you became your authentic self and I think so many of us, me included, tend to not be as consistent as perhaps we should be to help really gain those followers and take advantage of what Tik Tok and other social media outlets have to offer for free advertising for us. 

CALLIE: Absolutely. Yeah. It's really cool for me to connect with the people that used to join my live streams like I remember when I hit 1000 followers and I got to finally live stream for TikTok specifically and there was two people that would join my live streams all the time. I think we ever we maxed out at like five people viewing for the first couple months and now whenever I go live, there's sometimes there can be a couple 100 people in there, but sometimes I see those, those original two or three and it's always such a special moment when I see it pop up, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, you're you're still here. Like you're still like, I don't care about the rest of them like you followed me through either there at the beginning. Like it's really it's really important for me to connect with my followers in general in the comments, but then also to like, remember people and remember that, like I wouldn't be here today without the support of the people along the way.

MARY: Yeah, that's an excellent point too. And that connection, you know, when those live streams, you're creating community.

CALLIE: Yeah. 100% we have whole like, like conversations in the comments, or I think at one point, I was taking a new medication that had to be taken at night and I'm a nighttime like live streamer. Like that's usually when I'm going live and I had one follower who is now a really good friend of mine we've never met but she would remind me every night and she's like remember to take your meds and I was like thanks because I forgot and they're ADHD meds so like it's seem funnier that like usually it was the thing… the thing you need to take to remember to do the things consistently. And so she was my consistent reminder during live streams and he's like, Did you take your medicine and like, Oh, thank you so much. Let me take one right now. And so yeah, we got through that entire, like, season of that specific medication because she reminded me every night because I wouldn't remember.

MARY: I love that. So what inspires you?

CALLIE: That's a great question. I am fueled by trying new things, and seeing what can happen. So I also love a good challenge. So recently, back in August or July…I had an opportunity to work with a laser company called… and they sent me a laser and I was to make content with it. And so I wanted to do a 90 day payoff challenge. Because I thought, You know what, that'd be a cool like source of content…have all these projects. I need to pay this laser off anyway, like let's, let's do it in 90 days. And so I made a list of all these projects that I wanted to do and started working my way through it. And on day 15, our Stanley topper file went viral and we sold $30,000 worth in nine days on TikTok shop. And so those videos collectively have over 10 million views. My house is a train wreck for weeks as I had about 14,15 people rotating in and out to help me fulfill these orders. But I'm constantly like inspired by trying new things, seeing what will take off and then watching the power of social media work. We've had multiple cards go viral, we've had multiple products and so it's always fun to kind of chase that like new level of success but also like what is going to connect most with our followers.

MARY: Right. Do you sell the cards as singles or in groups? How does that work?

CALLIE: So we have cards that are available as singles. We have postcards. We have flat cards that go with an envelope and a stamp. And then we have like little baby like mini cards. And you can buy them individually but you can also bundle them to get them at a cheaper price. 

MARY: Okay, excellent. So what has been the most rewarding about this process for you… this experience?

 CALLIE: I think the experiences and being able to meet people and connect with people. I think social media allows you to really connect with people that are outside of your circle. And so I have been able to make some really incredible friends through Tiktok through social media in general. I actually went to VidCon out in California last year with four creator friends that I had, or three creator friends that I'd never met in person. We all rented Airbnb and went out together and had an absolute blast. But we've just built all these relationships, friendships, partnerships with different people. And that is… it's just so fulfilling.

MARY: Yeah, that's really cool. And I think you know for all of its faults, social media does that really well. 

CALLIE: Yes. 

MARY: Is there any obstacles that you had to overcome that you other than, you know, the self talk which we've talked about, you know, that you've had to overcome in the process?

CALLIE: I think our biggest challenge is always like money, and funding. I started this with 20 bucks in the bank account and have used the profits from whatever I sell to reinvest back into my business and so every time we go viral or we have these like big influx, it's like okay, now how do we, how do we upgrade our stuff? Instead of outsourcing, we now print all of our stuff in house. We've purchased the equipment, you know, we've purchased the lasers, we've purchased the shelving like never, never knew shelving was so expensive. But to house all of the cards that we offer, we have about 150 designs. And to also to hire an assistant that helps with fulfilling card orders. That was important but yeah, I think funding especially when not going like traditional, like loan routes, because that wasn't something I wanted to do. It's also sometimes hard to find small business loans when you're brand new, but not like when I still consider myself like a pretty like a baby business compared to like a retail location or something like that. Everything operates out of my dining room and so sometimes that funding is usually like one of the hardest parts. 

MARY: Yeah, that's…it is hard, especially for a company that's starting up because for banks to lend you money of course they want to see three years of growth right?

CALLIE: Yeah. 

MARY: And you're like, Well, how do I get the growth but don't have the money? CALLIE: Exactly, exactly. 

MARY: So you have to be creative in the ways that you find. So then when you have this big orders like that $30,000 order right… or 30,000 card order, then you just hire part time people to come in and help you get them out quickly.

CALLIE: Yes, my dad was here everyday helping. My assistant was here and then I literally put the call out on Facebook. I was like who has extra time during the day… night. We would have people that would come in at 7:30 in the morning. A friend of mine… I gave her my house code and was like here's the key to the door. She would come in and start working. I would sleep in a little bit. But I would also work until 2,3,4 in the morning with the late night crew and so we made it through like you find your community, find your local people that will jump into help but yeah, August was chaotic.

MARY: And that but you know what, that's a great problem to have.

CALLIE: Yes, it is. Yeah. Yeah.

MARY: So looking forward, what are some of the goals that you have for the card company? I mean, do you I mean, I guess you want to stay in your garage forever.

CALLIE: Yeah, I don't know. 

MARY: Although that might be kind of nice. 

CALLIE: But yeah, it's well, it's nice, not having like an overhead of a shop or warehouse or anything. Our garage is converted so it's like a two car garage size but it's a nice like workspace. For me I think I've specifically this past year I've been operating essentially two businesses under one name. So we have the greeting card side and then we have the laser engrave side and low backs are how the laser engraving came in. It's because no one gets rich off of $2 greeting cards. Takes a lot of greeting cards to build up by capital. And so we introduced laser engraving personalized items to help get our cost per order up. But they still kind of feel like two separate verticals. So the goal this year is to invest in a UV printer, which will allow me to take the full color designs of my cards and print them onto cups, wood, stuff that I can use in my laser engraver and be able to finally merge those two businesses and have them like mesh a little bit more cohesively. So that's a large investment of a pretty expensive piece of equipment. And so yeah, I'm sure I'm excited to figure out how we obtain that but that is the ultimate goal for 2024.

MARY: How do you proceed TikTok helping you in the coming year?

CALLIE: Well, this specific campaign is not a short, the ads may stop running soon, like the print and digital ones. But this is… it's going to be a long term advertisement for them and for me, and so I know that's going to help with business. I already get orders all the time. That's like hey, we saw we saw your ad like we're now ordering. But TikTok the platform itself is… 98% of my customers find me through TikTok so that's where we put all of our time and effort. We have Instagram, Facebook, we don't put as much stock time investment into those platforms because when you find something that works like I'm investing my time there on TikTok so continuing to create content that engages people that I think going back and doing a lot more content about the how… how we get to places the start of a card, how we design it, how it’s printed, cutted, showing the behind the scenes of that is something like my followers have asked to see more of this year. They also asked to see more of the laser and so we're gonna be featuring more of that

This year as well. 

MARY: Yeah, that's fun to see. That's fun to watch.

CALLIE: I realized like as much as I see it working and it may like lose its sparkle a little bit when you're running it consistently. My followers don't get to see the chaos of watching it run and so I've got to remember that’s not…most people don't have multiple lasers in their house. So I need to share that more with people. It's very common for me, but it's not common for 99% of the population.

MARY: Right, right. You know, I want to circle back around to DC because we I know there were these huge hearings about TikTok and potentially regulation or, or even not allowing Tiktok to operate in the United States. And I know that if that were to happen, it would hurt small business owners and I think you would be one of those people.

CALLIE: Yeah, yeah. I actually just got back from DC. I was up there talking about credit card swipe fees. Additionally talking about the impact of Tiktok on my business and kind of my stance on things is a lot of the questions right now are about internet security, data privacy, and we're having these conversations. Tik Tok gets called out a lot because the parent company has owners that are also Chinese based. And so that causes a lot of fear. But the reality is that data security and privacy is a much bigger topic that is not limited to TikTok. We have those issues with Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, LinkedIn, Twitter, whatever, all of them have the same issues. And so when I'm talking with our representatives, talking about let's have the broader conversation, let's not single out one because the reality is if we can pass legislation that protects users and people. It's just eliminating one, it's not going to fix the problem. We need to do more to protect everybody. And so I'm hoping that some of those conversations we’ll realize that that's the bigger issue. But yeah, it's a risk, putting kind of like a lot of my all my eggs in that one basket but right now, like it is the most accessible platform for small businesses the way that the algorithm works, the way that the platform shows stuff that you're interested in. And so it's easier for small businesses to have a fighting chance of being seen versus Instagram and Facebook that really value the amount of followers you have over the interest of what you have. So it'll be interesting to see. But I continue to use our voice to talk to our representatives because I met with our representatives office this week, and Lindsey Graham and talked to their office and showed my stats and they're like we've never heard a small business story from Tik Tok. And I'm a constituent and so going and showing the staff with like, 98% of my customers find me here like here's… our audience is actually older, like it isn't young kids and so kind of changing the narrative by giving the other side of the truth there.

MARY: And thank you for doing that. And I think all small businesses should thank you for doing that. Because, you know, the good thing about social media, no matter what platform it is, is it's free advertising for you. Every time you're on there, right? You are the face of your company. You are the brand so to speak, right? And that's some advertising that you don't have to pay for. Absolutely, it's free. And if you're not using social media, then you should start using social media.

CALLIE: Yeah, we don't pay. I think I ran one ad last year. And it was a very targeted ad because it was for a very targeted product for our cutting boards, like it was a targeted age group for that specific product. But yeah, we've done so much. I mean, I think we did probably close to $50,000 in sales last year without a single like dollar of advertisement.

MARY:

That's great for the bottom line. 

CALLIE: Yeah.

MARY: Let's give some advice to people because we just talked a little bit about the age, you know, and that's a misnomer that ultimately kids on Tik Tok, right, because it's not. It's only old people on Facebook because it's not, right. And so let's talk about if you can give some advice to some of our listeners about maybe some tips and tricks of the trade so to speak of getting yourself noticed. CALLIE: Um, specific per platform or just in general?

MARY: In general, or if you want to go specific, specific, that's fine.

CALLIE: I think often that we target certain platforms for certain ages. And that's not necessarily true. Facebook's become older generation. Snapchat is just like the high schoolers TikTok is like Gen X, millennials, whatever. But that's not true. Some of my favorite Tik Tokers are actually like quite old. We have… like I follow a Grandma, that's one of my favorite people on the app. I think there is a spot for everybody on all platforms. All say that the demographics from my Tik Tok account and actually have this beside me. So I'm not just pulling out numbers. 71% of my followers are between 25 and 54 and 87% are women. 96 or 96% of them are in the US. So I do have international followers. I've shipped a lot of international orders from that percentage that is internationally, but I think that not specifically targeting a certain age… I think making your stuff broader is the best way to appeal to people on all platforms. My dad loves TikTok. Does he create content on there? Absolutely not. But he does scroll it nightly for hours because he sends me them all the time. So it's, it's really cool for him or for me to see certain brands like really embrace the fact that like all ages are on TikTok and be able to target across all generations with their content and like it's resulted in…he has purchased us specifically because he saw it on TikTok. 

MARY: Yeah. I do that all the time.

CALLIE: We joke about like Facebook ads are like super targeted because of your like interests or whatever. You think and it appears but there are still younger people on Facebook. They may not be posting but they see stuff. Same with Instagram, I think a lot of people watch but don't necessarily post and so just because you may not be seeing their content on there doesn't mean they're not there. 

MARY: That's a great, great point. Because there are 1000s, millions of people probably on Tik Tok that just kind of scroll and watch and whatever, the videos and they're seeing those ads, right? I don't I mean, you know, as I said, I'm a gadget girl, which is how we met each other. And because I went up to Callie and I was like, hey, show me what you're doing here man. And I am forever ordering gadgets off TikTok shop. 

CALLIE: The amount of stuff that I need to do an entire video of stuff that I've ordered because I saw it on TikTok and there is a hashtag TikTok made me buy it but I have peach mango toothpaste because I found it on TikTok. Like I hate the taste of normal mint toothpaste. And I got served an ad for flavored toothpaste and was like done… immediately purchased. And that was like such like such a good decision that like makes an impact on my daily life. But like a random thing.

MARY: I will tell you I have not gotten anything that's cheap or bad or anything from any of my Tik Tok purchases. 

CALLIE: Yeah, most of them are pretty solid. I will say as a TikTok shop seller, the regulations that they have…they're pretty strict. And so we're constantly fighting the product authorization stuff on like getting our stuff posted because sometimes it says like I think this is… like your price is too low, we think it's a scam and I was like it's a mini greeting card like I can't charge more than $1.50 for this like sometimes it'll flag us like we think this is a scam it's because you're offering it for $1. So…but yeah, I think the last probably eight months has been really heavy on TikTok shop as they released that and try to grow it. I think that now that Black Friday and Christmas and stuff are over I think it'll chill out a little bit. But it is interesting to watch how the different platforms are changing their algorithms and changing what they're promoting. I recently got a message from Tiktok saying that they're wanting you to post some vertical or some horizontal videos and longer videos and you've got YouTube over there promoting shorts and then you've got Instagram that wants to be everybody… do all the things. So it's important to pay attention to all of the platforms and see what they're favoring. And if you can ride the wave as soon as they announce something…I will say that's like one of the things we found the most successful is when a when a platform releases a new trend or not necessarily like a trendy type of thing, but like TikTok specifically said recently that they're favoring longer videos and they're favoring the, the horizontal so they're fighting YouTube essentially. I have friends that are posting that and going viral for those longer videos and it's counterintuitive what we think Tik Tok should be but if TikTok is saying, Hey, we're favoring this. It's pretty dumb to not ride that wave. Even if we don't agree with it because like, I don't have it like I don't TikTok to be YouTube… I want the short fun videos but like as a creator, as a marketer, you got to sometimes you got to suck it up.

MARY: Right. Callie, thank you so much. This has been such an interesting conversation.

CALLIE: Thank you so much for having me. It's always fun to talk about this kind of stuff.

MARY: Yeah, absolutely. Before I let you go though, tell our listeners and we are on YouTube too. So tell our listeners and our viewers how they can get in touch with you and how they can order from you and that kind of thing.

CALLIE: You can find my stuff at sparksofjoyco.com. Our handle is sparks of joy co on all platforms. And then we have our website.

MARY: Perfect. Again, Callie thank you so much. We can sit here and learn from you so so much. So everybody, you know she gave us some really good nuggets and even some Easter eggs in there, to use a Taylor Swift term, that you can pull out when you listen to this podcast and kind of put to use in your own life and your own building of your business. So Callie, thank you so much again.

CALLIE: Thank you. 

MARY: Take care.