0:00

Sergeant and Mr. Smith,

0:02

you're gonna this house. Bunk

0:05

beds in a There's

0:07

no field manual for finding the home. But

0:09

when you do, USAA homeowners insurance

0:11

can help protect it the right way. Restrictions

0:14

apply.

0:29

I'm Max Burrill and this is Classic

0:31

Movie Must's double feature where

0:33

every week we break down a recent movie

0:35

destined to be thought of as classic. This

0:38

is the Patreon exclusive supplemental

0:40

show to Classic Must, thank you

0:42

so so much for your support on

0:45

Patreon. In this week's episode,

0:47

we welcome back Ted Walsh keep

0:50

our double rolling. And this week we'll be talking

0:52

about film stars don't die

0:54

in Liverpool. But first,

0:57

let's get into this week's opening credits.

1:07

Our film this week is Film Stars Don't

1:09

Die in was

1:12

directed Paul MacGigan. Film

1:14

stars Don't Die in Liverpool stars Annette

1:16

Benning and Jamie Bell,

1:18

and Julie Walters, Kenneth

1:20

Granham, and Stephen Graham. In

1:23

October of 1981, Gloria Graham

1:25

is playing the role of Amanda at the Glass

1:27

Menagerie and Lancaster and

1:30

takes ill.

1:31

She calls upon a former lover, Turner,

1:34

who reluctantly takes her to parents' home in Liverpool

1:36

to recuperate.

1:38

Back in 1979, in the twilight

1:40

of her once prolific and Academy

1:43

Award winning career, is

1:45

playing a role of Sadie in the play

1:47

Rain in London and asks

1:49

another tenant at her boarding house, Peter,

1:52

to practice dancing disco with her.

1:55

Glory is with who also

1:57

an actor. They see Alien together.

2:00

drink together afterwards and strike up a

2:02

friendship. After an argument,

2:04

their relationship becomes intimate

2:06

despite their noticeable age difference.

2:09

Back in 1981, Peter's parents are still

2:11

expressing support for Peter and Gloria's relationship.

2:15

Peter and his parents acknowledge that Gloria

2:17

needs more attentive medical attention

2:20

for whatever is ailing her. However,

2:22

Gloria insists that her illness isn't

2:24

serious.

2:26

In 1979, Peter visits Gloria

2:28

in Los Angeles and their romance continues

2:30

at Gloria's modest Malibu trailer park

2:32

home. Gloria's mother, Jean,

2:35

demonstrates support for Peter and Gloria's

2:37

romance, but Gloria's older sister,

2:39

Joy, is hostile. Both

2:42

encourage Peter not to marry Gloria, given

2:44

Gloria's earlier and scandalous marriage

2:46

to her former stepson, Anthony Ray,

2:49

who was also significantly her

2:51

junior. In October of 1981,

2:54

after contacting Gloria's doctor in Lancaster,

2:56

Peter learns that Gloria's breast cancer has returned

2:59

after initial remission in 1975. Gloria

3:03

has refused any further treatment.

3:05

Peter eventually confronts Gloria with

3:07

what he knows, but Gloria insists she'll

3:09

get better.

3:10

Peter reluctantly shares the prognosis

3:12

with his family.

3:14

From 1979, Gloria and Peter's

3:16

romance continues until the spring of 1981, and

3:19

Peter spends time with Gloria in New York City.

3:22

Gloria invites Peter to live with her in America

3:24

full-time. However, shortly thereafter,

3:27

Gloria suddenly cools to the relationship

3:29

without explanation, distancing herself

3:31

from Peter. Gloria kicks him out

3:33

of her New York City apartment and he returns

3:35

to Liverpool for an acting job in a local

3:38

play. It is revealed that Gloria's

3:40

sudden change of heart in New York City was driven by

3:42

her learning that her cancer had returned. Her

3:45

earlier refusal of chemotherapy in 1975 had

3:48

contributed to the cancer's return. Her

3:50

distance from Peter and keeping of secrets

3:52

was because of ongoing tests and doctor

3:55

appointments.

3:56

She doesn't share this with Peter and instead

3:58

hopes to drive him away.

3:59

as the cancer is diagnosed

4:02

to be terminal.

4:03

In October of 1981,

4:05

Peter struggles with his family on how

4:07

to approach the care for Gloria. She

4:10

has become increasingly weak and Gloria

4:12

decides to allow Peter to inform her family of

4:14

her illness.

4:15

Peter surprises Gloria by taking her to

4:17

the theater to read from Romeo and Juliet.

4:20

They reconcile Gloria's oldest

4:22

son Timothy arrives from the US

4:25

to assist in Gloria returning home. and

4:28

Peter gently packs her belongings as Gloria

4:30

sleeps. Gloria says goodbye to Peter and

4:33

his family and departs for the US, and

4:35

they share a final kiss.

4:37

Film stars don't die in Liverpool had a budget

4:40

of $10 million, but it only

4:42

brought in 4 million at the box

4:44

office.

4:45

Now, we need to do more Gloria

4:47

Graham movies on the show, but first

4:50

it's time for our feature presentation. A

4:53

new way to nitro is here. Try the new

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5:08

["The Star-Bucks

5:13

Outro"]

5:14

Joining us for the second

5:17

episode in our double feature, Ted Walsh,

5:19

you're back. How are you, Ted?

5:21

Very well, Max. And you? I am,

5:24

I'm doing very well. excited to talk about film

5:26

stars, don't die in Liverpool with you.

5:28

This was your idea that I had not, not

5:31

only had I not seen this film, Ted, I don't think

5:33

I had heard really of this film before

5:35

you said, Hey, I think it'd be really great

5:37

if we did a double feature on this

5:39

with Billy Elliott. And it just goes to

5:42

show how much I trust you because I'm like, if

5:44

Ted likes it, it's gotta be a classic.

5:46

Thank you for that. And I think, you know, what drew

5:48

me to the choice. And

5:52

that is the fact that

5:54

we have two very, very good actors appearing

5:57

again in a movie. but

5:59

you're

5:59

later, Julie Walters

6:03

and Jamie Bell.

6:06

But I shouldn't say that was what first attracted

6:09

me because I saw film

6:11

stars don't die in Liverpool when it first came

6:13

out by accident. I can't remember

6:16

exactly why, but I saw it in some

6:18

little art house and I just

6:20

fell in love with it. And then

6:22

very recently in a little film club I'm doing

6:25

with some former students and others.

6:28

We watched Billy Elliot and

6:30

I said to them, okay, since

6:32

we're watching Billy Elliot, I want to have

6:35

you look at a movie called Film Stars Don't Die

6:37

in Liverpool. And that's when the actual pairing

6:40

of the two

6:41

came to me. And I don't

6:43

want to over it's not there's no big comparison

6:46

to make except to watch two really strong

6:48

actors 17 years

6:49

later

6:51

doing some very

6:53

good work. I think it

6:56

makes for a complex

6:58

and delectable meal where

7:00

the flavors complement each other

7:03

without there necessarily having to be, as

7:05

you say, some profound connection

7:07

between the two.

7:09

But not least of which, thinking

7:11

back to Billy Elliot, and we spoke very

7:14

highly of Jamie Bill's performance.

7:17

And in any number of cases, with

7:19

child actors, they can give great

7:21

performances and that's a one-off.

7:24

It's something that's elusive.

7:27

But I think his performance in this film goes

7:29

to show that he's a really tender

7:33

and profound actor, the way he's able

7:35

to tap into his character.

7:38

I agree. In fact, I find

7:40

his performance And as highly

7:42

touted as Annette Beddings is, and it deserves

7:44

to be, I

7:45

find Jamie Bell's performance

7:48

deeply moving and affecting. vulnerable,

7:52

you know, to play

7:55

a 30

7:56

year old actor whose career

7:59

isn't doing so. well and

8:01

to let all the wounds

8:04

show and all

8:06

the band-aids show is really

8:08

lovely

8:11

and we get to see him dance again

8:13

and he's actually gotten better. Much

8:16

better. Yeah he was good in Billy Elliot

8:19

but when he and Benning

8:21

you know start

8:24

doing their stuff and that when they first meet

8:26

that's a great scene. That's,

8:29

yeah. It really is a great scene. And

8:31

I don't know about you, but I just like to imagine

8:33

that when it came time to film that scene, just

8:36

the number of times that

8:38

he probably had to hear that day of like, dance,

8:41

Billy, dance. You

8:43

know, like, I mean, I just, you can't help it. I

8:45

know I would have. But

8:48

to me, that scene is so emblematic

8:51

of

8:51

the charm that really constitutes so

8:53

much of the, at least the early goings of this

8:56

moving, which is just how

8:59

effortless and kind of effervescent their

9:02

early romance is between these two characters.

9:04

And it's something I appreciate about this

9:06

movie. I think it's something just reading a little

9:09

bit about it. That was kind of the criticism that we don't necessarily

9:11

get a tremendous amount of insight into

9:13

their

9:14

relationship. I mean, their relationship

9:16

constitutes a very short

9:19

window in time,

9:21

but what they do show us allows

9:24

us as the audience to kind of construct

9:26

so much of this movie at the margins, the

9:28

stuff we don't see, they allude

9:30

to just enough of it

9:32

that you're able to really put together this

9:36

very endearing relationship. And that

9:38

early scene and their kind of early courtship to

9:41

me, as

9:42

I say, it has this effortless

9:44

quality that I immediately buy

9:47

into this relationship. Agreed,

9:49

and I wanna add to that

9:52

that what the movie decides

9:54

not to do is to spend

9:57

any more than just a little bit of money

9:59

little bit of time on the age difference

10:02

between the two of them. I

10:05

do believe this was a genuine love affair.

10:08

I do believe that Peter was

10:10

truly in love with her. Certainly

10:14

that shows in the way he cares for her at

10:16

the end of her life.

10:18

And I believe to the extent that Gloria,

10:20

who was rather promiscuous and

10:24

had been married four times, but I believe

10:26

she was in love with him.

10:28

I have, They are both gone now

10:30

so I can talk about the little bit. I have two very

10:32

close friends Who uh, I

10:35

actually introduced because I was directing

10:37

them in a play together and

10:39

uh, he

10:41

was 21 years older Younger

10:45

than she so it was very

10:47

much exactly the same pairing And

10:50

I know that that kind of relationship

10:52

can be a very strong relationship when we were

10:55

so used to the flip

10:56

That we almost don't comment on it.

10:59

And what I love about this movie is that it chooses

11:01

not to comment on it It lets

11:04

it be Occasionally there's a little

11:06

remark made or this but not

11:08

much not much and

11:11

and

11:12

You know that the real guy appears

11:14

in the movie. I don't know if you Uncovered

11:17

this I didn't tell me tell me where

11:19

Turner is in the movie. He wrote

11:21

the book about their story, right? He's

11:24

the man who brings out the chairs.

11:26

Oh cool age so that they can do

11:28

the little Romeo and Juliet moment That's

11:32

a perfect. That's a perfect cameo

11:34

spot. That's that's actually incredibly

11:36

touching And he is he

11:38

is very pleased with

11:40

the movie. He feels it's faithful to their

11:42

story

11:44

That it's an honest depiction

11:46

there when he was interviewed about it. He

11:48

said there's not a whole lot. I would change This

11:51

is pretty much what it felt like like. So,

11:54

you know,

11:55

thumbs up for those. Yeah,

11:57

absolutely. And I mean, to your point.

12:00

All we have to go off of is the story

12:02

he wrote, which I haven't read, but if

12:04

you're saying it's extremely faithful, I believe

12:06

that. And if he's happy with it, then

12:09

it is all we have to go off of. And it doesn't,

12:11

as

12:11

you say, it doesn't

12:14

lead into or lend itself to a lot

12:16

of the tropes that this kind of story

12:19

might otherwise. Yes, as you

12:21

say,

12:22

their age difference accounts

12:24

for fairly minimal. In fact, really

12:27

it's more of insecurity on

12:29

her part about being a faded

12:31

star or old or no longer

12:34

attractive that really is a source of tension within

12:36

their relationship more so than

12:38

him feeling insecure by her success

12:40

or her age or anything that

12:43

might otherwise be the case. And I appreciate

12:45

as well how accepting everyone

12:47

around them tends to be, whether it's his friends,

12:50

his family, the conversation

12:53

he has with his father is

12:55

an incredibly, it's both, that

12:57

kind of enhances the humor of

13:00

this film, which you have to kind of latch

13:02

onto the humor that's present in this story because

13:04

it's also such a tragic story. But

13:07

when the father's

13:08

there saying that, when

13:10

you watch the Gloria Graham movie, you know that if

13:12

you walked home with her at night, that your lips

13:14

would be tired and he's sitting

13:16

there like, "'Dad, what are you doing? "'You

13:19

can't say these things to me.'" I

13:21

mean, it's great moments like that. And then

13:23

you also, as I say, kind

13:25

of constructing a narrative at the margins

13:27

of this story. You have a scene, an

13:30

incredibly taught one, I think, when

13:32

he visits her in Malibu and her mother

13:34

and sister come to visit. And

13:36

we don't get a lot of that story, but we get

13:38

just enough of her backstory to

13:42

help us really help construct

13:44

this world that really is left

13:46

off screen.

13:48

But we get enough of that flavor,

13:50

enough of the intricacies, But

13:53

again, it doesn't derail things

13:55

for them either. He has

13:57

a kind of implicit trust in her and...

13:59

Um, you know, yes, she's being

14:02

known as as you know, kind of a seductress woman

14:04

But at no point is there a narrative of her cheating

14:06

on him despite her kind of

14:08

you know closed offishness towards the end It's obviously

14:10

for very different reasons

14:12

Their relationship feels incredibly

14:15

authentic for what it is without playing into tropes

14:18

here

14:18

here and um You

14:21

just put your finger on one of my favorite

14:23

moments in this film and that is the five

14:25

minutes that we get of Vanessa Redgrave who

14:27

is a consummate actor

14:30

and in that deliciously

14:34

It's not cheesy exactly But

14:37

it was filmed on the cheap because

14:40

they're not in Malibu They're not even close

14:43

to being a Malibu there there were

14:45

they rear projection of

14:47

the water and but it's really quite

14:50

beautiful the way they've done it. It's, you

14:52

know, this movie was shot on a shoestring. And

14:56

but you if, who cares if you're shooting

14:58

a movie on a shoestring, then get Vanessa

15:01

Redgrave to come in and knock

15:03

it out of the park and show you how great acting

15:05

is done. I will

15:08

give, I will give away almost anything

15:10

just for a replay of the way Vanessa

15:13

Redgrave who says

15:15

she once played Ophelia, and

15:17

then she just does her little mad gesture.

15:21

I know that's just her instincts

15:24

as an actor. I'm sure that's not in the script.

15:26

That's just Vanessa being Vanessa. Also

15:29

in that scene,

15:31

we get just that little moment

15:33

of the most shocking part of Gloria

15:36

Graham's story. And that

15:38

is that she married the stepson

15:40

of one of her husbands and one of her husbands

15:44

accused her of actually having

15:46

had relationships with

15:49

that boy before he was 18.

15:53

Peter Turner, who

15:56

writes this story, says that is

15:58

absolutely not true. So we'll

16:00

never know for

16:01

sure. But right ago. Yeah.

16:04

And again, it speaks to the I think the what

16:06

what is constructed as a trusting relationship

16:08

when he asked her is what she said is what your sister

16:11

said true. And she just says, No,

16:13

it's not. But people believe what they want to believe. And,

16:16

and we just have to take their word for it. And that's

16:18

fine. And that's, I mean, that's ultimately what it is. We

16:20

have no other recourse in that way.

16:24

And again, that's not what this movie is about.

16:26

Exactly. Exactly. Right. I mean, you are it is

16:29

a is a story about their relationship

16:31

in this period of time, not

16:33

about

16:34

what is a long and clearly

16:39

interesting career in life, right? We're

16:41

just getting a tiny

16:42

look at her life through

16:44

the lens of this one particular relationship.

16:47

And I think that gives it a sense of intimacy

16:50

that

16:51

wouldn't otherwise exist if you tried, if

16:53

we were getting the Gloria Graham biopic, so

16:56

to speak. And also those

16:58

Malibu scenes,

17:00

to your point, again, it's, you know,

17:02

I think a certain amount of me, you

17:04

know, we expect certain Hollywood conventions

17:06

and then this isn't that kind of a story, which is

17:08

great, which is that we expect this

17:11

tension over

17:13

her insecurity, over potentially, you

17:15

know, not being as successful as she was, I

17:17

mean, in the sense of she's living in a trailer

17:19

park in Malibu.

17:21

And we expect that in there, you know, we

17:24

have this beautiful scene of them being

17:26

reunited at the airport and them

17:28

driving through Malibu. It's a great scene. But

17:31

we expect the other shoe to drop, some

17:34

sort of offhand line of like, oh, this

17:36

is where you live, but no, he loves it. And

17:38

that, I mean, I just think it speaks to their,

17:41

to the relation, how in sync these two characters

17:43

are. And we don't necessarily need to

17:46

see every step along the way of how they got to

17:48

be so in sync, but we can get those pieces of evidence

17:51

along the way. And it just creates a

17:53

full relationship for us.

17:55

Yeah, you know, Max, it's a matter of focus

17:57

in storytelling. And

18:00

so often, particularly when you're dealing

18:02

with a living,

18:04

breathing actual person, I

18:08

hesitate to call this a biopic, but let's

18:11

go with that for a second. It's

18:13

so tempting to try to bring

18:15

it all in. And this one decidedly

18:18

does just the opposite. And by staying focused

18:22

and staying focused on

18:25

the woundedness of both of

18:27

these characters, They are both,

18:30

they both have wounds. She

18:33

has physical and therefore

18:35

psychological wounds because of it. And

18:38

he's got some real psychological and professional

18:40

wounds. And that's

18:43

what this story is about. And

18:45

I don't know, I've seen this movie, gosh,

18:47

I've seen this movie six or seven times. And

18:50

I find it, maybe it's my age, I

18:53

don't know exactly what it is, but I find it

18:55

deeply affecting. I'm actually

18:57

quite, quite touched

19:00

by the way this movie looks at mortality.

19:03

And the fact that

19:06

here she is back in England doing

19:08

the Glass Menagerie, oh god, I would give

19:10

anything to see her as Amanda Wingfield

19:13

in the Glass Menagerie, anything. I would

19:15

pay serious money to have seen that because

19:18

it's one of my favorite plays and I love

19:21

her as an actor.

19:22

But in any event, here she is. And what

19:25

is it that compels her

19:27

to reach out to want to go

19:29

to this home

19:32

to die or to be cared

19:35

for? It's not a

19:37

glamorous home. It's not

19:39

it's in fact, it's in

19:41

its way the equivalent of the trailer, if

19:44

you will.

19:45

She loves Bella. She loves the parents.

19:48

She loves the security and she loves

19:50

Peter. And she loves Peter

19:52

so much that we know what she

19:54

did. she sacrificed something to

19:58

give him maybe his career?

19:59

So all of that, but again,

20:02

it doesn't dwell on

20:04

all of that. It simply stays

20:06

focused on their story. And

20:10

that's why I love this movie as much as I do.

20:12

It's not a big budget. It's not,

20:15

you know, it didn't score all that high

20:18

on Rotten Tomatoes, but

20:20

it scored very high in The Guardian. And I love

20:22

The Guardian and I love The Guardian's reviews. So

20:24

therefore they

20:27

like what I like. This is

20:29

one of my real favorite movies. And

20:31

I was just talking to an old friend this morning. He's

20:34

in Ireland right now, escaping the nonsense

20:37

of America because he happens to be lucky

20:39

enough to have a home in Ireland. And

20:41

I

20:43

said, he said, well, what's your podcast

20:45

on today? And I told him, he said, oh,

20:47

I love that movie. And it was

20:50

very much the same reaction I'm having.

20:53

And then I'll shut up. I just wanna tell you that when I

20:55

was a kid growing up,

20:58

Gloria Graham meant a lot to me, not

21:00

because of the performances we

21:02

always talk about in a lonely place

21:05

in the band, The Beautiful and Naked

21:07

Alibi or whatever it's called, but

21:10

The Greatest Show on Earth and

21:13

Oklahoma. Because

21:16

they were in color, so I was a kid in a light

21:19

color, and she

21:21

was just charming in both of those, as

21:23

the woman atop the elephant in The Greatest

21:25

Show on Earth. and as

21:28

Aido

21:29

Annie in Oklahoma,

21:32

which was really quite something

21:34

of a performance. She was terrific. And

21:38

Benning gets her

21:41

without mimicking her. She

21:44

goes for the heart of Gloria

21:46

Graham. I hate mimicked performances.

21:49

Anybody can do voices or whatnot.

21:51

That's not what she's doing. She's going for the

21:53

heart of the character. And I think she finds Graham.

21:56

It's actually one of the interesting things I find about

21:58

this movie.

21:59

that I actually quite appreciate

22:01

speaking to what you're saying about not, she's

22:04

not trying to imitate her or just pull

22:06

off her affect in any particular way, is

22:09

that the film includes the real footage

22:11

of Gloria Graham, both in

22:13

her films and at, obviously at the

22:15

end, at her Academy Award

22:18

winning moment.

22:20

And I think that has, to

22:22

me anyway, a fairly profound effect

22:26

in that one, it

22:28

distinguishes Gloria Graham

22:30

in her heyday from Annette Bening's character

22:33

of her, and that they are not

22:35

the exact same person, but very much

22:37

an extension and evolution of this character,

22:40

that we can see that these are

22:43

separate people,

22:44

but we can feel kind of

22:46

how this character, this person has

22:49

aged into the woman that she is now,

22:51

and then at the same time,

22:53

especially in the scene when

22:55

Peter goes to see her

22:58

movie by himself in the theater and

23:00

he's just, you know, he's in love with it. But

23:02

we have this old black and white footage of

23:04

Gloria Graham

23:06

and it feels entirely

23:08

of a different time and place, otherworldly

23:12

entirely.

23:13

And that is her reality. You

23:15

know, she is, obviously she is in this

23:18

time and place in which he is, you know,

23:20

falling in love with her.

23:22

But the Gloria Graham that the world knows is

23:24

of a different time and place, is almost an entirely

23:26

different woman. And so I appreciate

23:29

that contrast with that real life

23:31

footage, because I do think it helps kind

23:34

of set the tone and set up the insecurities

23:36

and the vulnerabilities that Annette Bening just,

23:38

I think, absolutely absorbs

23:41

into her very being, the way she can be

23:45

flirtatious and sexy and then immediately

23:48

insecure and then shift into

23:50

prideful. the way she

23:52

moves through the kind of emotional spectrum

23:54

over the course of not just the film, but within

23:57

an individual scenes is really quite something

23:59

to behold.

23:59

I've got

24:02

several things I want to say about that, and I think you say

24:04

it perfectly. The

24:07

first is going to be just a touch nerdy

24:09

and forgive me, but just this morning I was reading

24:12

a brilliant essay by the writer

24:14

Michael Cunningham about translations

24:17

of famous works of literature and how

24:21

each generation, you might have a new translation

24:24

of Anna Karenina or Death and

24:26

Venice or whatever. He was writing about Death and

24:28

Venice. And he points out that

24:31

translations are what

24:33

you are in a sense of saying about Benning's performance

24:36

and that is they are

24:38

not the literal

24:41

recreation of the story.

24:45

They're finding the story

24:47

in a new language, still

24:49

being faithful to the events in the story

24:52

and to the spirit of the story, but still

24:54

you have to recreate it in a new language.

24:56

And that's what Benning does with Graham's character.

24:59

She finds a way

25:01

to recreate her without

25:04

imitation in any way shape or

25:06

form. That's number one. Number two, the

25:08

way they tell the story when Peter first meets

25:10

her

25:11

He falls in love with the woman he's

25:13

dancing with in the room Not

25:16

with some idealized version of

25:18

Gloria Graham as you intimate and

25:20

that's very important also

25:23

to the story, because it's, if you

25:26

know, hey, if I could get a secret

25:28

date with Marilyn Monroe, well,

25:31

then that would be great. By the way, it's very interesting

25:33

that that's what her mother likens her

25:35

to, Marilyn Monroe. And,

25:38

but that's not the story again, it's

25:40

the real deal.

25:41

And so when some

25:44

snarky guy in the bar won't

25:46

even shake his hand in the pub, won't

25:49

even shake his hand after the show won't shake his

25:51

hand because

25:52

he thinks that that

25:55

that Peter is just a boy toy.

25:57

Peter is not a boy toy. That

25:59

is not a boy toy. not what this story is. And

26:02

there again, we are grateful because

26:05

we know that boy toys

26:07

and trophy wifes

26:09

to flip that. Those are other stories. That's

26:12

not what this story is, not at all. Very

26:14

true. I mean, it harkens back to that conversation that

26:16

Peter has with his father when they go to get a drink,

26:19

which is that he's not fallen in

26:21

love with the woman that his father

26:23

and mother

26:24

know all her movies and watch

26:26

them all. And his father has this sexualized

26:29

view of Gloria, it

26:33

is exactly that way you're saying. He finds

26:35

out from his landlady that she

26:37

used to be an actress, and that's great. And

26:40

he appreciates really

26:42

the dedication to her craft. He's admiring

26:45

her doing her warm-ups. He

26:48

says that he has that affection

26:50

for her. Or likewise,

26:53

you have those little moments. And I think, again,

26:55

setting the movie in 1981, the

26:58

movie was set, I mean, that's

27:00

when these things take place. But

27:02

you know, it being a pre-internet,

27:05

pre-social media time, that their

27:08

romance can be just the two of

27:10

them

27:11

without it being, you know, the tabloids

27:13

are chasing them, oh, who's Gloria Graham dating

27:15

this week, you know, type of a thing, I mean, that's just,

27:18

none of that is part of the story, that they can just live

27:21

fairly anonymous lives, the closest they

27:23

get to otherwise is the bartender saying,

27:25

wasn't that, Isn't that Gloria Graham? But

27:28

that's it. They're not being accosted. They

27:31

get to just be people.

27:33

And Peter can't pull out

27:35

a DVD or go to Amazon

27:37

Prime and watch the old movies. He has

27:39

to find, there has to be a rerun. That's another

27:42

thing. Great point. His parents

27:44

did. That's part of their time. Oh,

27:46

gosh, I could write a book

27:49

about what we've lost or

27:51

gained, depending on how you wish to look at it,

27:53

by the fact that we don't

27:55

write letters anymore, that we do emails

27:58

that.

27:59

We telephone calls blah

28:02

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

28:04

blah. You know I'm saying. Mm-hmm. It's it's

28:07

really something So

28:09

there you are. No,

28:11

I I think you're making excellent points across

28:14

the board

28:15

And then there's a you know, I

28:17

think a few points where the film

28:20

you know, it takes on its

28:22

film at quality and and

28:24

they speak to me and I could understand

28:26

how

28:27

maybe they'd be alienating to some people

28:29

and they are one, the first, I mean, the

28:32

way the film steps into flashback and

28:34

memory, quite literally by

28:36

often Peter stepping into another

28:39

room or

28:42

stepping through a doorway and stepping back in

28:44

time or forward in time. I

28:47

love this kind of technique. I mean, I find it incredibly

28:50

creative the

28:52

way the production design is designed, the way the

28:54

lighting shifts.

28:56

But at the same time, I think it's necessary

28:58

in this movie to have those kind of, a little

29:01

bit of that artifice, because this

29:03

film, given the story that it tells, it

29:06

walks a fine line into becoming

29:08

quite depressing

29:09

and overly tragic. You

29:12

have the tremendously ironic line of Peter saying

29:14

like, oh, doesn't she just ooze

29:16

tragic romance? And you're like, well, yeah.

29:19

But the way

29:21

the film is kind of embraces its

29:23

film at quality,

29:27

I think diffuses a

29:30

little bit of that tragedy and that the

29:32

depressing quality that's there and allows

29:34

you to enjoy the construction of the film

29:38

and take a step back from, I think

29:40

some of those sadder elements, or

29:42

it kind of spreads it out over the

29:44

course of the film so it never becomes too overwhelming.

29:46

What do you think about that? I agree

29:48

with that. Again, that's

29:52

sort of part of what

29:54

I was talking about with focus. Just

29:57

when you think that it might go...

29:59

there,

30:01

it shifts back to really

30:03

trying to stick to the heart of this story. And

30:06

although I do find it

30:08

sad, I find it

30:10

sad in all the right ways.

30:12

I'm sad because, but

30:16

I'm also exhilarated by

30:19

the human spirit. And

30:21

I know it sounds so corny, but I got to say it,

30:23

the goodness of this family, the

30:28

decency and

30:30

the warmth of their

30:33

embrace of her and

30:35

the effort to try to understand

30:37

their son's affection

30:40

to her,

30:41

and the honesty about the brother's

30:43

relationship, Joe Jr. and

30:45

Peter's relationship, which is clearly

30:48

fraught.

30:49

The focus on the trip to Manila

30:52

that

30:53

Gloria gets interestingly invested

30:56

in.

30:56

And even the very accurate,

30:59

very accurate to the truth of the

31:01

matter of the son

31:03

coming there to bring his mother home,

31:06

and she in fact, that is absolutely, that's all

31:08

true, to bring her home.

31:13

In a lovely little performance, by the way, by

31:15

the guy who is the new Grant Chester, if any

31:17

of your people have Grant

31:19

Chester. Some of our listeners must

31:21

love Grant Chester on BBC. So

31:24

there you go. Oh, Masterpiece Theatre,

31:26

excuse me.

31:26

I think the new version is awful,

31:29

but that's another story. But this is a very

31:31

engaging actor whose name I can't remember.

31:33

But there he is. As a young actor,

31:36

has his little cameo and now he's doing

31:39

a series of his own. Anyway,

31:41

yes to your story. It

31:44

is sad, but it is not depressing.

31:47

This movie is not depressing. Otherwise,

31:50

it wouldn't keep watching it. I don't like being

31:52

depressed. I don't mind being sad.

31:55

I think sad is a good thing sometimes. Yeah,

31:57

no, I hear what you're saying and

31:59

I do think that the

32:02

familial relationship at her home, I mean,

32:04

obviously this is her desire is to go there. So

32:07

there has to be, that location

32:09

has to be given flavor

32:12

and depth and they do an

32:14

excellent job of that. From what I understand

32:16

of the book, her

32:18

time spent in his childhood home is

32:20

a little bit more ironic

32:23

at times of kind of this faded star

32:25

living in different circumstances. But

32:28

I appreciate that the film kind of pushed

32:30

that element aside to say, to

32:33

give us really that sense of humanity

32:35

that exists in this home. And we

32:37

do feel that tension of them saying, it's

32:40

none of it's black and white. His parents do say,

32:42

you know, that we love Gloria and we want her, but

32:45

you know, she needs to be taken care

32:47

of and we understand the importance

32:49

of family. And if it were one of our own,

32:52

we would want to know what was

32:54

going on with that person. and it's

32:56

not fair to her children if

32:58

she dies here and they didn't have an opportunity

33:01

to save her or say goodbye or any

33:03

of those things. And I do think that's so much

33:05

a part of it. And

33:10

obviously

33:11

without hitting it over the head, we do have the contrasts

33:14

of her life in Malibu, but specifically

33:17

their life in New York, which is fairly

33:19

upscale.

33:21

And at no

33:23

point is that really ever something it seems she

33:25

craved per se as much as she

33:28

craved just kind of, you know,

33:31

adoration to a certain extent of, you

33:34

know, for her craft and for her looks and

33:37

obviously her insecurity over that is hit

33:39

at different notes at various points in the film. But

33:41

I think it never feels quite repetitious.

33:44

And when

33:45

it does bubble up from under the surface,

33:48

you do really feel like you've stepped on into

33:50

a minefield in those little moments

33:52

where, I mean, in the alleyway, what is this beautifully,

33:55

you know, it's romantic scene. And he says,

33:57

oh, well, if it is true, you know, I certainly

33:59

don't mind.

33:59

and you totally understand that he's making a joke,

34:02

but you just can't say

34:04

that.

34:05

Likewise, at the end when

34:07

he does say, you're

34:10

just a crazy old woman,

34:12

and she stops for that split second and said, what did

34:14

you say? And she's like, I'm not gonna get too

34:17

caught up in debating that with you,

34:19

but at the same time you've sealed your fate in this

34:21

moment. It's moments like that

34:23

where it comes to the surface in different

34:25

ways and in different moods and attitudes

34:29

that you feel like it is an evolution

34:31

of this character trait or this quality of

34:33

her existence and it's

34:35

stuff to deal with.

34:36

And here again, I think you used a minefield

34:40

metaphor and that's a very good one. This

34:43

movie gets so close at so

34:45

many moments

34:47

to ways it could go awry and

34:49

it chooses not to do that. It could

34:51

be a class story, it's not that. It

34:53

could be, I really want your

34:56

money story, it's not that. It's

34:59

not, or I really want your lack

35:01

of money. No, it's not that. It's just,

35:03

it has to do with human warmth and human understanding

35:07

and, and, and. Two things about that.

35:09

One, Benning is brave

35:13

in letting the wrinkles show, in

35:15

letting the age show. So

35:18

that when she asks, how do I look?

35:20

Because it does mean something to a movie star.

35:23

It feels like a painful,

35:26

important question. And there's

35:28

no effort to

35:30

light her or to make

35:32

her, have her makeup, make her look

35:34

anything but what she is at the age she

35:36

is. And that's, of course, that's Annette Binnink. She's a

35:38

very brave actor, a huge

35:41

fan of hers. And

35:43

again, when they put her in that

35:46

taxi, in the chair, and

35:51

of course, my question is, do they get the chair back?

35:53

I sort of was wondering too. I

35:56

imagine there's like a deleted scene where he says to

35:58

the taxi driver, like here's an extra. You

36:00

know five or you know, can you bring the chair back after you

36:02

drop them off at the airport? Two

36:04

those nice people who took care of my mother all

36:07

this time and And

36:10

even though it does use some of the little

36:12

corny movie moments that we love It

36:15

uses just enough

36:16

of them to make us love them, you know, they

36:18

the the the note

36:22

when we get the scene replayed and we find

36:24

out that she walked into the room earlier

36:27

and and heard the phone call and then

36:29

we understand the scene in a new context

36:31

sort of in Rashomon. I love

36:33

that, that's fine. And before we forget

36:35

it, because I know I'm gonna forget it, could

36:38

every actor in America

36:41

please watch

36:43

Gloria Graham's acceptance

36:45

speech of the Oscar as

36:48

a guide for how you

36:50

might do it better. She doesn't even stop

36:52

at the podium. She just grabs

36:54

her Oscar and says, thank you. Thank

36:56

you very much. I know

36:59

it's kind of perfect actually. Yeah,

37:02

they need to do it. A Delbert man who directed

37:04

Marty

37:06

famously said,

37:08

appreciate it.

37:09

And then he left the stage. So that's

37:12

all we need. We don't need more. I don't need

37:14

to hear about your agents. I don't need to hear about your

37:17

political causes. I just take

37:19

your Oscar. Thank you. Yeah, we're just, let's

37:21

celebrate the moment. Move on to the next. I couldn't agree

37:24

more. Excellent point.

37:26

And then you

37:27

can build up to, again, yeah,

37:29

you have these tropes that are not tropes,

37:31

but conventions of certain stories like the

37:34

story told from multiple perspectives. And

37:36

it doesn't feel revolutionary,

37:39

but it does give you insight into each character,

37:41

which is exactly what that kind of convention

37:43

is meant to do, to show you a scene from two

37:45

different perspectives, give you a little bit

37:47

of differing information, a little bit of insight

37:49

into how each person responds. That's the purpose

37:52

of that tactic. And

37:55

then, you know, we build up to this scene in the in

37:57

the theater where they get to read Romeo and Juliet

37:59

and apparently

37:59

your excellently placed cameo of Peter Turner

38:02

himself. And again, I think this

38:04

is a moment that

38:06

it would have been easier in a

38:08

lesser film to play up this

38:11

kind of Romeo and Juliet quality,

38:14

building on some aspect of

38:16

it, old and young, American

38:18

and British, successful actor, not successful

38:21

actor. There are so many different kind of divisions

38:24

between them that it could have been

38:26

like, oh, you know, and now they are here

38:28

reading Romeo and Juliet. it's some

38:30

modern day retelling of Romeo and Juliet.

38:32

And it doesn't do that, but the story

38:34

does have enough of those tensions that

38:37

go beneath the surface and around

38:39

that when they do read Romeo and Juliet,

38:42

it feels incredibly meaningful

38:45

for both their love and for

38:48

their circumstances.

38:50

Exactly. And I

38:52

love the moment much earlier when she

38:55

suggests that she wants to go to the Royal

38:57

Academy and do it. he comes oh

38:59

so close to saying the wrong thing about, well,

39:01

aren't you a little, hmm. He

39:04

does say it. I mean, he says the wrong thing.

39:07

He had to back, he realizes that he's

39:09

in one of those minefields there because- He treads

39:11

out of that one just closely enough, but you

39:13

know, she, I mean, that's when ultimately they start

39:16

their romance, but it's, yeah, you're absolutely

39:18

right. It's a great scene.

39:20

And the way she plays, even

39:23

forgetting some of the lines, I've

39:25

done, I've directed Romeo and Juliet, something

39:27

like five times. And

39:30

that

39:31

scene, I

39:32

love

39:33

more than I can say, so to have them

39:36

play it. And that's where, and

39:38

Max, you and I know this, it's why we love movies,

39:40

when movies become

39:42

very personal. So when

39:44

I watched this movie,

39:46

part of my

39:47

youth loving Gloria Graham

39:49

on the Technicolor screen in

39:51

Oklahoma and in the greatest

39:54

show on earth,

39:55

and my experience with Romeo and

39:57

Juliet later in life.

39:59

love of the movie Billy Elliot and

40:02

really almost fixated

40:05

with that 13-year-old's amazing

40:07

performance in Billy Elliot and

40:11

loving and abetting particularly in American

40:13

Beauty. And then

40:15

it all coalesces

40:18

here. You can't help that when

40:20

you go to a movie. You bring who

40:23

you are and your experience with

40:27

the actors,

40:29

with your own mythology, with

40:31

your own concerns. I'm 78.

40:34

I'm interested in mortality, probably

40:37

more than someone who's 40 years

40:39

younger than I am is interested in mortality.

40:43

And so this movie resonates. And

40:46

it really gets to me.

40:49

It's

40:50

an important personal experience

40:52

for me. That's where I come to this

40:54

and that's where I think most people who are going to

40:56

be touched by this movie

40:59

are going to be touched in similar ways, but for

41:01

different reasons.

41:03

Yeah, I very well said. There

41:06

is one detail in particular that I found

41:09

at first, you know, at first it didn't quite hit

41:11

me and then it did and it kind of sunk

41:13

into different layers of me as I really processed

41:16

it. My guess,

41:19

again, not having read the book, but it's a

41:21

scene in which he couldn't have

41:23

written about it because he wasn't there. So

41:25

I really do feel like it's the filmmakers bringing

41:28

a certain insight into these characters into

41:30

the mix. And

41:33

I think it speaks to Annette

41:35

Benning, her performance, but specifically

41:38

about the vulnerability and the insecurities,

41:40

kind of the deep insecurities that Gloria Graham

41:42

experienced. And it is

41:45

the scenes in which she sings her

41:47

iconic song

41:54

from Naked Alibi, Ace in the Hole.

41:56

And her character is singing it.

41:59

And at first I thought, to myself, okay, you

42:01

know, she's reliving her heyday type

42:03

of moment. And then I took the

42:05

time to really think and say, but Gloria Graham

42:08

didn't actually sing the song.

42:10

She was dubbed.

42:11

So she is both singing her most

42:13

iconic moment, but

42:16

it's not really hers either. I mean,

42:18

it is and it isn't.

42:20

And that she's lending it her voice

42:22

as though it always was her voice,

42:25

but it never was, I think, expresses

42:27

a

42:28

deep conflict inside this person.

42:31

And, you know, to, she is taking

42:33

on her own mythic status

42:35

at that point and not necessarily distinguishing,

42:39

you know, legend from truth. And

42:41

I just, as I say, I really

42:44

kind of pierced through my layers as I thought

42:46

about it.

42:47

Max, I think actually, if

42:49

nobody remembers anything else from what we've

42:51

said today, I hope they remember that because

42:54

it has to do again

42:56

with memory and

42:59

there's

43:00

that wonderful word, polemcest,

43:02

which is layers of things

43:05

in art and you might peel

43:07

away one thing and something else might

43:09

be underneath it.

43:11

On one level, obviously she knows

43:14

she didn't sing that song in the movie,

43:17

but on another level, she

43:19

did, as far as she's concerned. And

43:22

it's important to her,

43:25

because movie stars,

43:27

they can't help it. They are

43:29

in many ways, they get themselves defined

43:32

by these iconic moments, and that

43:34

is one of the iconic moments in her career.

43:38

So it is deeply touching.

43:40

And again, no more

43:43

is made of it than need to be made

43:45

of it. of it.

43:46

That's something for us

43:48

to bring to the storytelling. That's

43:51

something for us to unpack. That's

43:53

one of the layers in Palincess for us

43:55

to peel away

43:56

if we choose to. We're given

43:59

the information. but no more.

44:03

We don't have to have it smashed in our face like

44:06

a bad pie. Indeed.

44:08

At

44:09

the end of this film, I'm left

44:12

with, I think, what I got to imagine

44:14

these

44:15

people are left with having lived

44:17

it. And I think that really says

44:19

something about the power of this movie that to me, having,

44:22

you know, experiencing the rise of this relationship,

44:25

and then ultimately it's, it's tragic

44:27

decline, that I'm left

44:29

with that tragic romance of feeling

44:32

that the romance just was over

44:34

too soon. Watching the

44:36

movie, I want more of the romance and

44:39

more of their time together and you just

44:41

can't have it

44:42

because of life.

44:44

And I'm sure

44:46

to an infinite degree more, that's

44:48

how they felt as well. And

44:51

ultimately, I mean, what more can you say for a film that

44:54

if it can make you feel exactly the emotions

44:56

that potentially the characters are feeling

44:58

i'd i'd find this a surprising movie on

45:00

so many fronts and here again you

45:02

put it perfectly that

45:04

the director uh... paul mcgwigan

45:07

or however we pronounce his name we think we're pretty

45:09

good there is is not

45:11

a household name uh... he he

45:14

he gets some recognition but you know he's

45:16

not he's not one of the world's five

45:18

great directors uh... no big

45:21

budget they didn't get some good actors

45:23

probably didn't pay them that much. I

45:26

suppose I could have found out, but I didn't check that.

45:29

But by keeping the story

45:32

simple and heartfelt and

45:34

by acting it with such integrity,

45:38

without ever

45:40

pulling out the sentimental stops in

45:43

the way that you might in a story

45:45

like this. I mean, can you imagine?

45:48

Yes, you can. You can imagine

45:50

the music

45:52

swelling in the wrong ways. You can imagine

45:54

the scene going on for a little

45:56

too long. You can imagine the painful

45:59

close-up.

45:59

lasting too long. You

46:02

can imagine fill in the blank. No,

46:04

we don't have that. We keep it simple.

46:07

We keep it nuanced. We

46:10

do use some of the familiar movie tropes,

46:12

but we use them well. We

46:15

have very good actors. We

46:17

have a story that is

46:19

not only a true story, but apparently

46:21

a true story told

46:23

honestly and truly

46:26

without having to

46:30

pull out the stops in a way that

46:32

makes it untrue. So many of these stories

46:35

are that are based on actual books. And

46:38

you know something in me, I

46:40

just believe Peter Turner, who

46:42

is still alive today obviously, is a

46:45

really good guy. I just feel

46:47

he's a really good guy and God bless

46:50

his mom and his dad and his crazy brother

46:52

and their crazy household. They're

46:54

good people.

46:55

And even though, and there's where the title,

46:58

which is a crazy title, but it does

47:00

come in. Film stars

47:02

don't die in Liverpool, but

47:05

damn it, they stay in

47:07

Liverpool up to the very

47:10

last moment before they die. And they

47:12

are very lucky to have been there

47:15

because had she been in LA, she'd

47:17

be in either hospice or the hospital.

47:20

Yeah. It's

47:22

like one of those, again, in lesser

47:24

hands, that the title wasn't

47:27

like spoken as a line of dialogue in the film

47:29

because it would have just been too much. But

47:31

you gotta feel that it is, that

47:33

the title essentially is present in both

47:35

the beginning and the end. In

47:37

her desire to go there, I think she genuinely

47:40

feels that film stars don't die

47:42

in Liverpool, she can go there to recuperate.

47:45

And then of course at the end, the realization

47:47

that film stars don't die in Liverpool

47:51

and she needs to leave. And,

47:54

you know, I think there's a bookended poeticism

47:57

in that as well.

47:58

And now I'm ready. I'm ready.

47:59

for the spinoff story about the mom and dad's

48:02

trip to Manila. You know, I want to I want

48:04

the story of their 24 hour layover

48:06

in Manila. Give it to us.

48:09

I'm there and if I can

48:12

get Julie Walters and Kenneth crannum to

48:14

be there. I'm there. Has

48:16

to. Because I love them. I love Julie

48:19

Walters. We haven't talked about her enough, but

48:21

I love this actress. She can

48:23

do no wrong. And if you want to just

48:25

do nothing else, folks, Gloria

48:28

or Annette and Jamie dance together

48:30

and then go back and watch Jamie

48:33

and Julie dancing together and Billy Elliot

48:35

and then your days your days a better

48:38

day. It's all good Yeah, it's got it all

48:39

be you know a good day from there So Ted

48:42

I I thank you for bringing this film to my

48:44

attention and hopefully to any of our listeners who

48:46

hadn't already seen Its attention. This was

48:49

this was a lot of fun. As you said, I think they're just they're

48:51

two movies that

48:52

Kind of complement each other well without it

48:54

being that they're inherently connected but

48:57

they have a fun flavoring,

49:00

complimentary flavors. And I thank you, Ted.

49:02

Thank you for letting me bring them to

49:05

our podcast.

49:13

["The email

49:21

me at classicmovymus at gmail.com, or

49:23

you can DM me on Patreon. Thank

49:26

you to our Patreon producers, Eleanor B, Max

49:28

on Re, Pedro R, Ryan D, Jonathan,

49:31

Bernie, and Steven Scofield. And thank

49:33

you to all of you for your support on Patreon. It

49:35

makes such a difference. Remember,

49:38

Classic Movie Must double feature releases every Tuesday

49:40

on the podcast service of your choosing, as well

49:42

as on Patreon.

49:43

Thank you so much for listening.

49:45

Until the next episode, keep up with

49:47

your classics.

49:55

This podcast

49:57

is a part of the C-suite Radio Net.

50:00

For more top business podcasts visit

50:03

c-suiteradio.com.