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Alan Alda, and this is Clear

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and Vivid, conversations about

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connecting and communicating. I

1:01

feel comfortable saying that I'm an

1:03

atheist. Even though you can't prove there's no God, there's

1:05

no way to prove a negative, God

1:07

is conveniently invisible. I don't need to

1:10

give that particular imaginary creature any

1:15

more benefit of my doubt than I

1:17

give, you know, monsters that

1:21

may or may not be in the closet of my

1:23

kid's room, right? Why do we have a much, much,

1:25

much higher requirement for

1:29

this particular imaginary being than we

1:31

have for other ones that we easily say,

1:33

no, no, that's not true. It

1:36

was made up. That's Washington Post columnist

1:38

Kate Cohen. She's

1:41

written a thoughtful book called, We

1:44

of Little Faith, Why I Stopped Pretending to Believe, and

1:48

Maybe You Should Too. It's

1:50

about the difficulty she had in finding It's

1:53

about the difficulty she had in finally admitting

1:55

to family and friends that she was an

1:57

atheist. Her goal, she said,

2:00

says isn't to convince believers to

2:02

become unbelievers, but to

2:04

convince non-believers like her of the value

2:06

of being honest and forthright about

2:09

their non-belief. You

2:12

know, we talk a lot about communication

2:14

on this podcast. And one

2:17

of the most difficult communications to

2:19

have was a difficult conversation about

2:22

coming out. And your story

2:25

is not like most coming out stories, is

2:27

it? No, I guess

2:29

it isn't. For so many years,

2:31

once you realized you weren't a believer,

2:34

you found it hard to tell others that

2:37

you were an atheist. Why did it take

2:39

so long? I wanted

2:41

everyone to like me. And

2:45

growing up in America,

2:47

I absolutely

2:50

got the, I think,

2:53

probably true impression

2:55

that atheists or

2:57

people who didn't believe in

2:59

God were suspect in

3:02

some way. Possibly

3:05

immoral, absolutely

3:08

alien. And so I wasn't

3:11

honest with people around

3:15

me. And that included your

3:17

family, didn't it? It

3:19

certainly included my parents, my family that

3:21

I grew up with. I

3:24

was raised Reform Jewish. We

3:26

went to synagogue and we

3:28

had Shabbos dinner every Friday

3:30

night. We lit candles and

3:33

I was bat mitzvah. My sisters and I were

3:35

all bat mitzvah. And I would

3:37

sit in synagogue

3:40

and pray and sing

3:42

like everybody else. But

3:45

I never really believed that the

3:47

person that there was a person

3:49

that there was a supernatural being

3:51

actually listening to my prayers. I

3:53

always thought of God as

3:56

a literary character. Rich,

3:59

sir. of tradition and because I

4:02

was Jewish, a rich source of

4:04

argument and discussion

4:06

and lore, but

4:09

not an actual being who

4:11

was up there who

4:13

cared about how my day went. So

4:16

that's what I thought. I

4:18

didn't really have discussions with

4:20

my parents about

4:22

what they believed. You know, it's

4:24

certainly possible that they felt the

4:27

same way. Did you ever find

4:29

out? Were you ever able to have any discussions

4:31

with them? Yes.

4:34

And my

4:36

father tells a story now about

4:38

how he

4:40

wasn't sure until my mom

4:43

got cancer and then he was like, you

4:46

know, screw this, I don't

4:48

believe this. You know, that was

4:50

his moment of rejecting the idea.

4:53

Some people go the other way when there's a health

4:56

crisis. Yeah. They feel it's time to

4:58

make a deal. So

5:04

when was it that you finally had a face

5:06

up to the fact that you had to tell

5:08

someone else? It

5:12

was when I had kids. Yeah. It was when

5:14

I had kids. And that

5:16

really made me take a leap,

5:19

at first, just in the privacy of

5:22

our living room. But that really made

5:24

me articulate what I

5:26

really believed because I

5:28

felt more than wanting

5:30

to be liked by people, I felt

5:33

this kind of

5:35

awesome responsibility to them and

5:38

to their developing brains. And

5:41

I realized that,

5:44

you know, when they're little, everything

5:47

they know comes through you. And

5:50

I felt that power. I

5:53

felt that power. And I

5:55

felt very serious about not passing

5:58

on to them. anything I didn't

6:01

believe and telling them

6:03

how the world was as I saw it. It

6:06

was just very important to me. I

6:08

didn't want anything to get in

6:11

the way, any sort of lies

6:14

or not even lies, conventional wisdom.

6:18

You know, the sort of easy things that people

6:20

say to their kids when the cat

6:23

dies or something like that. What

6:25

prompted the conversation? Had you cat died?

6:29

The first conversation was really we were

6:31

reading a book of Greek

6:34

myths. And your kids were how old? Five

6:37

and three. I must have been

6:39

pregnant with a third. So I had

6:41

the two little boys in their little

6:43

footy pajamas. And it

6:45

was the Layers book of Greek myths. And

6:47

one of them said, well, what's a myth?

6:51

And I said, it's a

6:53

story people tell about how the world

6:55

works. Like the stories

6:58

of Moses that we

7:01

tell for Passover and like

7:03

the stories about Jesus that

7:05

people tell around Christmas time.

7:07

It's a story about how

7:09

the world works. And

7:12

it's called a myth when people don't

7:14

believe it anymore. And it's called religion

7:17

when people still believe it. But

7:19

they're just they're all stories that people

7:21

made up because they didn't understand how

7:24

things work. They didn't understand

7:26

where thunder came from, for example, when

7:28

we talk about Zeus. And so that's

7:30

where it started. And they just

7:33

nod and they take it in. And

7:35

then every little step then, every

7:37

conversation that you have, you

7:40

have to think about, well, do I really think

7:42

this? Do I really believe this? It

7:45

was a wonderful way to raise kids,

7:47

honestly, because it meant

7:50

that everything, every

7:52

difficult thing about life and every wonderful

7:55

thing about life, we could

7:57

talk about them and experience them

7:59

together. without any kind of

8:03

anything in the way, any

8:05

story I was trying to tell them or

8:07

appearance I was trying to keep up or

8:10

anything like that. All of that was cleared

8:12

away and we could just talk

8:15

about what it means to

8:17

be dead, for

8:20

example. How did you talk

8:22

about that? Because that's a

8:24

difficult idea. That's difficult. For

8:26

anybody to get. Absolutely. I

8:28

think especially kids, especially

8:30

if a death occurs in the family or

8:32

to a pet. Yeah. You

8:35

had an experience like that, didn't you? I

8:37

think my eldest was two when

8:40

his uncle's dog died. And I

8:43

definitely was sort of like, well, what do I

8:45

do? Obviously, I didn't wanna say that the dog

8:47

went to heaven. Didn't believe that. You

8:49

don't say went to go live on a farm. We lived on

8:51

a farm that wouldn't work. That

8:54

wouldn't work. Some other better

8:56

farm. Right.

9:00

You cannot say that the dog went

9:02

to sleep. That is bad. You don't

9:05

do that because- The kid's afraid

9:07

to go to sleep then. Kids afraid to go to sleep.

9:09

So what I realized

9:12

is that I could just say

9:15

that Lobo was dead.

9:18

And that then my son

9:22

could ask questions about what that meant. And

9:24

what that meant could sort of accrue

9:28

significance over time. When

9:31

I say dead, even as a 30 year old,

9:33

however old I was, it

9:35

has all these tendrils

9:38

into sorrowful things and

9:42

the terrible things that people do

9:44

to one another. And I don't

9:47

know, it has such a heaviness

9:50

that it doesn't necessarily have to have to

9:52

a child. That will

9:54

come in time. I

9:56

just felt that if I use the right

9:59

language and I- made it clear that

10:01

Noah wasn't going to see Lobo again. It

10:05

would be confusing. It's confusing for

10:07

everybody. Something that you

10:09

love is there and then it's never

10:11

there again. It's just baffling.

10:14

But I wouldn't be

10:19

weighing it down with any untruth, anything

10:21

but what he wanted to know or

10:23

needed to know at that point. I

10:26

mean he was too. Yeah, that's

10:28

a good path to follow, I

10:31

think. Yeah. What are their questions

10:33

actually? Right. I think

10:35

adults too sometimes wonder about

10:37

what the experience of death is like as

10:40

though you would experience it the way

10:42

you experience things when you were alive. Last

10:44

week I was talking to someone who I knew when

10:47

they were a child and they

10:49

had asked me, what do you

10:51

feel when you're dead? How can you feel nothingness?

10:56

And apparently he reminded me that I said to

10:58

him, well you feel the

11:00

same thing you feel before you're born. Yeah.

11:03

What did you feel then? That's a good answer. And

11:07

I don't know if that was original to me but it's

11:09

a good idea. It is

11:11

a good idea. It's so hard

11:14

to conceive of our own non-existence.

11:17

I really believe that's where

11:19

religion came from. I really

11:21

believe it's this complicated architecture.

11:23

Each one is this beautiful

11:27

human construction, this complicated

11:29

creation to just

11:32

avoid this one piece of knowledge

11:35

that we came upon quite early

11:37

in human existence.

11:40

And how do you

11:42

deal with that? We came up with

11:44

some just incredible concepts. I

11:46

always say that God is a human

11:48

invention and religion is a human invention.

11:50

And I don't necessarily mean that in

11:53

a negative way. I think it's kind

11:55

of beautiful

11:57

sometimes to think about the

12:00

lengths that people

12:03

have gone to to comfort

12:06

themselves in the face of their

12:09

own mortality. Which is why I personally,

12:12

although I'm not a believer, I'm

12:15

very careful about how I spread that

12:18

around. Because a lot of people seem

12:20

to really need that

12:22

belief and to take it away from them is cruel.

12:26

But is your saying you're not a

12:28

believer taking it away from someone else?

12:31

No, but I don't sermonize about it. I

12:35

don't try to convince them. There

12:37

was a time when I was very

12:39

young when I was a very staunch

12:41

believer. And I used to make

12:43

sermons to people because they

12:45

should believe because what I believed was obviously

12:47

true. I wanted them to

12:50

have the benefit of my

12:52

truth. But now, thank

12:55

goodness I'm older and a little more compassionate

12:57

about people around me. If

13:00

they believe it, maybe they need to believe it. As

13:03

long as they don't keep me from believing and

13:05

acting on my own belief. Exactly.

13:07

Or as long as they don't sort

13:09

of start to try to make laws,

13:12

for example, based on their beliefs that

13:14

affect your life. I

13:18

totally agree with you. And my book

13:20

is not in

13:22

any way an argument against religion

13:25

or an argument against God. I'm

13:27

not trying to convince believers

13:30

not to believe. I am

13:33

trying to convince people who don't

13:36

believe to be

13:39

comfortable with that and to be honest about

13:41

it, to raise their kids that way. I'm

13:44

really trying to give people courage and

13:47

to ask

13:49

people to live more

13:52

honestly. Because I think it's

13:54

just incredibly rewarding. Like I say,

13:56

I regret some of the years

13:59

that I spent. sort of

14:01

passing as a believer, partly

14:03

because of the, you know,

14:05

the relationships that I didn't have,

14:08

the conversations I didn't have. And

14:10

since I have started to talk

14:12

about it more and to

14:14

be more honest, I

14:17

was astounded how many

14:19

people responded with

14:21

anything from, you know, interest

14:25

to stories of

14:27

their own about their

14:29

not believing or about their doubts

14:31

or about their religious upbringing, whatever

14:33

it was, I didn't find what

14:37

I expected, which was that it would cut me off

14:39

from people, to be honest, I

14:41

found the opposite, that it made me

14:43

feel more connected to people that there

14:45

were people out there who wanted to

14:47

have these conversations, and then just didn't

14:50

like, like I hadn't, didn't feel like

14:52

they were supposed to say anything. I

14:55

mean, there really is an assumption in this

14:58

country still that belief in God

15:00

is sort of the base

15:03

point, the starting point, you know,

15:05

that maybe we all believe in

15:07

different gods, or maybe we have different religions,

15:10

but the belief in a higher power is

15:12

a necessity. My

15:19

guess is that it was difficult for you to

15:22

stop passing as a believer, because

15:24

you don't always know what the consequences

15:26

will be. Right. Would you lose your

15:28

job? Will you lose a friend? Will

15:31

someone think you're not trustworthy or not,

15:33

you can't possibly be a

15:35

moral person? How do

15:38

you navigate that? How do you know

15:40

when to speak up and when not

15:42

to? I would

15:44

say that I feel myself to be

15:46

in a position of great privilege with

15:48

regard to that issue. I

15:50

live in a fairly liberal area.

15:53

I live in Albany, New York.

15:55

I have open-minded

15:58

friends and family. I'm

16:01

white, I'm in a very

16:04

secure position financially, all these

16:06

things. Generally speaking, I'm

16:08

in a position where I'm not risking

16:11

much. The risk that

16:13

I took, that I felt the

16:16

most seriously, and I talk about it in

16:18

the book, I had to do

16:20

with my husband's family, particularly

16:22

his father, and the expectations

16:24

that he had on

16:27

us in terms of raising our

16:30

kids. And so when my

16:33

son Noah was born, we decided

16:35

not to have a brisk, which

16:37

is a ritual circumcision and

16:40

a party that goes along

16:42

with it. And we decided not

16:45

to do that. And

16:49

my father-in-law refused to

16:51

hold his grandson for

16:54

eight days. And

16:58

it was very upsetting. I

17:03

don't think we

17:05

knew what was going to happen when

17:07

we made the decision. And

17:10

I suppose in a way, eight days of

17:13

not being held by your

17:15

grandfather is not a big

17:18

deal, but it wasn't a good way to

17:20

start. So

17:26

again, the risk that I took was

17:29

family disharmony. And what

17:32

I argue in my book is

17:35

that people who

17:38

are risking less possibly

17:40

have more of a responsibility

17:43

to be honest, to come out,

17:46

you might say, than people

17:48

who are living in

17:50

a place where they

17:52

might truly

17:55

be risking their jobs or their

17:57

kids could get out. bullied

18:00

or, you know, or even

18:02

something more violent,

18:05

perhaps. I

18:08

never, I never had any kind

18:10

of fear on that level. Honestly,

18:13

it was always

18:15

more about wanting

18:18

to seem like a good person. And

18:21

I feel

18:25

that the more kind

18:27

of regular people

18:30

around the country

18:32

who can say without

18:35

rancor, oh no,

18:38

you know, I don't believe that there's

18:40

a supernatural being in charge, the

18:42

more people will understand that you can be

18:45

a perfectly good person, you know,

18:47

perfectly involved

18:50

in the PTA, perfectly teaching

18:52

your kid manners, everything, and

18:55

not believe in God. When

19:04

we come back from our break, I talk with

19:06

Kate Cohen some more about her conviction that

19:08

you don't have to believe in God to be

19:10

a moral person. Just

19:16

a reminder that Clear and Vivid is

19:18

non-profit, with everything after

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expenses going to the Center for

19:22

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20:45

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20:48

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20:50

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20:52

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20:54

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is always a great gift idea. This

21:15

is Clear and Vivid and now back to my

21:18

conversation with Kate Cohen. We've

21:20

been talking about her experience of

21:22

talking with people who believe that

21:24

atheists can't almost by definition have

21:27

morals. Have

21:30

you had conversations like that where you

21:32

were confronted with the idea that if

21:35

you're not religious, you don't have

21:38

a moral ground? Yes. How

21:40

did those conversations go? Well,

21:42

I have a whole chapter on morality in

21:45

my book because although

21:48

I think that death

21:50

is really the reason why religion was

21:53

invented, morality is kind

21:55

of like why we all think

21:57

we're supposed to believe, you know? But

22:00

morality there's this sort of like oh, this

22:02

is where our ethics comes from and we

22:04

we if we let go of religion We

22:06

won't have that anymore um,

22:09

and so my book I um

22:12

Have a jolly old time Showing

22:15

that morality does not come from

22:18

Religion that and it's not hard to do

22:20

and it is not about whether or not

22:22

religious people are moral or not not at

22:24

all it is about

22:27

how different people focus

22:29

on different parts of their holy books

22:32

to Emphasize and other

22:34

parts to completely ignore right

22:36

you some people focus on

22:39

um, but the parts that say

22:42

That men are not supposed to have sex

22:45

with other men And think that

22:47

that is the most important thing And

22:49

some people focus on the parts that

22:51

say you're supposed to feed the hungry

22:54

and help the poor And

22:56

think that that's the most important thing and there

22:58

are parts that today make it hard

23:00

for us to read without A

23:03

critical life like the best way

23:05

to treat your slaves absolutely

23:09

and Good people who believe

23:12

Just either ignore those

23:14

parts decide those parts are

23:16

outdated Decide they're metaphorical

23:18

to reinterpret them in whatever way, which

23:21

is totally fine I'm glad rather they

23:23

did that than that. They took them

23:25

literally But my point

23:28

would be that you're bringing or

23:30

those people are bringing their own

23:33

morality to their religious texts Their

23:36

own their innate sense of right and

23:38

wrong. That's what they're doing to decide

23:40

whether Christianity is

23:42

about You know helping

23:45

the the weakest among us

23:47

or whether christianity is about

23:49

you know enforcing sexual sexual

23:52

mores or You

23:54

know gender hierarchy or something like that. So

23:58

people religious people all

24:00

the time are using their own in

24:03

innate sense of right and wrong to

24:06

pick and choose. And

24:09

I feel like this is sort of

24:12

evidence that morality doesn't come from

24:15

their books. They bring it to

24:17

their books. They bring it to

24:19

their teaching. I've

24:22

met amazing, wonderful

24:26

religious people who

24:29

even see God in a very

24:32

specific way that comes from them and

24:35

who they are as people. And

24:38

that's the God that they believe in.

24:43

And I feel like that is the answer

24:46

to that morality question. It's

24:48

sort of like it's all there. You can

24:50

use it for good and you can use

24:52

it for evil. People use it

24:54

to inspire people and people use it to hurt

24:57

other people. And

25:00

it's not that it comes from there

25:02

in any sense. I really think it's

25:04

a very simple question of

25:06

the golden rule, essentially, which

25:08

I repurpose

25:11

as the rule of how would

25:13

you feel. That's

25:15

kind of what all parents use. I

25:18

don't know any religious parents who

25:20

are actually looking up chapter and

25:22

verse before they have a talking

25:24

to their kid about hurting another

25:26

kid. The

25:29

question you're bringing up is the question of respect

25:33

for the other person, whatever they believe. For

25:35

instance, some people are comfortable

25:37

calling themselves atheists. Other

25:40

people are more comfortable calling themselves agnostics.

25:45

And what they mean by it varies by

25:47

what definitions they give to those two words.

25:50

I mean, atheist could mean that you're without

25:52

a God, you just simply don't believe in

25:54

a God. Or it could mean

25:56

you know there's no God or it

25:59

could mean that you believe you can prove there's no

26:01

God, which is kind

26:03

of difficult to do. Yes, you can't do

26:05

that. It's pretty hard to prove a

26:08

negative. To be an agnostic

26:10

can mean to some people, I don't know, maybe

26:12

there is, maybe there isn't. If

26:14

there is, good, I'm on board. If

26:16

there isn't, that's okay too. Or

26:19

it could mean I can't know

26:22

whether or not there is or there isn't. So

26:25

I'm confined to saying, I don't

26:27

know, but not in the way

26:30

of saying, I don't know, therefore,

26:32

what's all say or prayers. I

26:36

feel comfortable saying that I'm

26:38

an atheist. Even

26:41

though you can't prove there's no God, there's no way

26:43

to prove a negative. God

26:45

is conveniently invisible. But

26:51

I feel like I don't need to give

26:53

that particular imaginary

26:55

creature any more

26:58

benefit of my doubt than I

27:00

give monsters

27:02

that may or may not be in the closet of

27:04

my kids' room. I

27:07

can just say, no, there are no monsters. If

27:09

I get any kind of proof

27:11

to the contrary or evidence in the

27:13

future, I will say, oh, I

27:16

was wrong. There are monsters. And I feel

27:18

the same way about atheism, but I feel

27:21

like why do we have a much,

27:24

much, much higher requirement

27:26

for this particular imaginary being

27:28

than we have for other

27:30

ones that we easily

27:33

say, no, no, that's not true. It doesn't, it's

27:36

not true. It was made up. So

27:42

your book is really directed at

27:45

people who have decided that they're

27:47

atheists, hoping to give them the

27:49

courage to say so. I think maybe

27:51

even more, people who have

27:53

felt that they needed to

27:56

pass on religion to their kids,

27:58

to carry on whatever faith

28:01

they were raised in because kids

28:03

need religion or because that's the

28:05

sort of responsible thing to do.

28:07

You know, people who are doing

28:09

it without really believing

28:12

it. I want people to

28:14

match a little bit more their

28:18

beliefs with their behavior and

28:20

also to know that you

28:22

can raise kids, you know,

28:25

you can sort of face all

28:28

the sort of things that we face in

28:30

life without having

28:32

that religious structure or without

28:35

a belief in a higher power.

28:37

So half of my book is

28:39

really about each of the

28:41

things that I feel like

28:44

religion promises to give or

28:46

does give people and

28:50

my search to find whether or not

28:52

I can give those

28:54

things to my kids or have those things

28:57

for myself. So the question of dealing with

28:59

death is in there and the

29:01

question of morality but also things that are,

29:03

you know, like churches, which

29:05

I love. I love churches and I feel like they

29:08

play a wonderful part in civic life.

29:11

So how do we get that, you know, without

29:14

belief? That's a really interesting

29:16

question because in many parts of the

29:18

country the social life

29:21

of the community revolves

29:23

around a church. If the

29:25

ranks of unbelievers grows to

29:28

such an extent that we

29:30

lose those centers

29:32

of community, what

29:34

can we replace them with? What can give

29:37

us the benefit of having people

29:39

who you trust, who you have a

29:41

communion with? How can we have that

29:44

in the absence of belief? Since

29:46

writing this book I have been

29:48

to some amazing places

29:50

where people are building community. I was

29:53

just in Orlando with the Central Florida

29:55

Free Thought community is incredible. The number

29:57

of things on their notice calendar,

30:01

you know, sewing circles

30:03

or volunteer opportunities

30:06

or or wonderful speakers

30:08

like me or it's

30:12

incredible. It's a lot of work

30:14

and you know I have to

30:16

laugh sometimes because I feel like

30:18

people turn their noses up at

30:21

so-called organized religion and

30:23

I always

30:25

say the organization is the

30:27

best part, you know. It's,

30:29

you know, these people

30:31

are organized and that is hard to

30:34

do. It's hard to, for me

30:37

it would be hard to be a

30:39

member of something where the core idea,

30:41

the animating concept is

30:43

this, you know, thing that I

30:46

don't believe but it's

30:48

an excellent question where else to find it.

30:50

In my book I talk about noticing

30:53

where you already have it. I'm sitting

30:56

here right now in a public library

30:58

which has events

31:00

all the time and has

31:02

free internet for people like

31:04

me who live on farms

31:07

and has places to bring your kids

31:09

when it's cold and you need, you

31:11

know, you need to entertain them in

31:14

some way so libraries could

31:16

be the answer too. But I

31:19

think it's a space, it's

31:21

organization, it takes money and

31:24

then there's also that

31:27

sense of community of

31:29

like-mindedness, some of which probably

31:31

just comes from doing things

31:33

together, achieving things together, putting on a

31:36

soup pantry. But, you know, I think

31:38

we have these extra spaces in our

31:40

lives and we might need to turn

31:42

more attention to them if we're

31:45

not going to invest in our

31:48

churches or if we don't feel we can for

31:50

whatever reason. And there's the

31:52

pleasure of the rituals. You

31:54

have a charming section in the

31:57

book where you talk about creating your

31:59

own holidays. Yes over

32:01

pizza. I love this. Yes. So

32:03

that chapter is

32:06

sort of about my hunt for a

32:08

holiday that I can both believe in,

32:10

really believe in, and also share with

32:14

the community around me,

32:16

which is the feeling that, you

32:20

know, I think real believers have

32:22

about things like Christmas. I mean,

32:24

how wonderful that sort of actually

32:26

believe in this and

32:28

also be sharing it with

32:30

your neighbors. And I tried

32:32

a bunch of different holidays. And

32:34

the one that stuck is one

32:37

that we just happened upon was

32:39

just accidental, which

32:41

was International Pizza Day. This

32:43

is an internationally recognized day.

32:46

Yes, I think it is an internationally

32:48

recognized day. It's on some calendars, Alan.

32:50

I mean, you don't have to do

32:52

two, you know, it's definitely on my

32:55

mom's calendar. Anyway, so we

32:57

just happened to read a book called

33:00

Pizza for the Queen by Nancy Castaldo.

33:02

And at the end, it had a

33:04

little note. It said if you want

33:06

to celebrate pizza, February 9 is International

33:09

Pizza Day. And I think it was February 4.

33:11

So Kismet, we're going

33:14

to do this, we're going to celebrate International

33:16

Pizza Day. And we just made homemade pizzas.

33:19

And then it stuck. We just kept

33:21

doing it every year, and it got bigger and bigger

33:23

and bigger. More people wanted to join you, right?

33:25

People wanted to join. And then

33:27

once they got on the list,

33:30

you couldn't get them back off the list. The

33:34

problem is that International Pizza

33:36

Day involves homemade pizza crusts

33:38

and, you know, homemade

33:41

toppings and everything. So it is

33:43

now the hugest pain. But I

33:46

really believe that a really

33:48

good holiday has to be something

33:50

that is, you know, exhausting. Like

33:53

Thanksgiving. Like Thanksgiving. It's

33:56

murder for the person who does the cooking. Absolutely.

34:00

Everybody appreciates it and joins

34:02

in. I'll bring the cranberry. Right.

34:05

And it's actually important to give

34:07

people jobs because there should be some

34:09

effort. I feel like that is kind

34:12

of what makes it stick.

34:14

You know, at Thanksgiving, because

34:16

it's secular, that ended up being

34:18

kind of really, it's my favorite

34:21

holiday. Well, now everybody will

34:23

be celebrating International Pizza Day.

34:25

And that would be great if we

34:27

could just, if this book does one thing, and

34:30

it adds to a Pizza Day around so

34:32

that it's not just a thing

34:34

in my house, but it's a thing in everybody's

34:36

house, that would be awesome. Pizza, I mean, who

34:39

doesn't love pizza? A great and

34:41

delicious way to end the conversation. We

34:49

always end our conversations with seven quick

34:51

questions. First question, of

34:53

all the things there are to understand, what

34:56

do you wish you really understood? I

35:00

wish I understood music.

35:03

I feel its power. I love it.

35:08

But I don't feel like

35:10

I really understand the way

35:12

it works. And I feel

35:14

like I might be a little too

35:17

old to understand it on

35:19

a kind of

35:21

automatic level. My kids all learned

35:24

when they were really young. Good

35:26

for them. And I blame my parents. OK,

35:31

next question. How do you tell someone

35:33

they have their facts wrong? I

35:36

guess this depends. If it's

35:38

just me and a person, and I

35:40

really think I can try to convince

35:42

someone, I'd

35:44

start with questions. I would say, where did

35:47

you read that? Or where did you hear

35:49

that? Or why do you think that? That

35:51

might be the best way to go. But it's tough

35:54

to do, as we know. Yeah. OK,

35:57

next. What's the strangest question anyone has ever

35:59

had? asked you? Yeah,

36:02

I think I'd go back to what we were

36:04

talking about before, which is how do you teach

36:06

your kids right and wrong? Where do you get

36:08

your morality? And I think

36:10

it's strange because it is invariably

36:12

coming from people who don't

36:15

use religion to teach

36:17

their children right or wrong. You know, I

36:19

don't know people who would say, hang on,

36:21

let me check Leviticus and

36:24

let me just see, you know,

36:26

what's right here. Nobody, nobody

36:28

that I know, I'm

36:32

sure there are people, but nobody that

36:34

I know teaches their kids right and

36:36

wrong using the Bible

36:38

or the Torah or the Quran. They

36:41

use other things. So it's funny to

36:43

me that they still ask it as

36:45

if that's where moral authority resides. Okay,

36:48

good. Next, how do

36:50

you deal with the compulsive talker? Well,

36:53

I would try to voice that person

36:55

onto someone else. You

36:59

must meet this person. Exactly. That is

37:01

so interesting. Have you met my husband? Okay,

37:07

let's say you're sitting next to someone at a dinner

37:09

table who you've never met. How

37:12

do you begin a genuine conversation?

37:14

By sharing something, by

37:16

being honest about something, by

37:20

making it clear that you

37:22

are willing to skip

37:25

that first layer and go

37:27

to some truth about yourself.

37:31

Okay, next to last, what

37:34

gives you confidence? Probably

37:36

started with always feeling loved

37:39

and safe. So my parents can have credit

37:41

back for that now that they've, although they

37:43

messed up the

37:45

music thing, I will.

37:47

And I guess I

37:50

would say sometimes when I'm

37:52

feeling insecure or uncertain in

37:55

a social situation, for example, I

37:58

just remind myself that other

38:00

people are too. And then

38:02

I pretend that it's my job

38:05

to make them feel more comfortable.

38:07

And as soon as you do that,

38:09

as soon as you feel like you have that

38:11

purpose and that's your job, you know, the

38:14

insecurities kind of go away. Last

38:16

question. Alright. What

38:19

book changed your life? I'm

38:22

a reader, lifelong reader. This is a really

38:24

tough one. My mind

38:27

flashes to when

38:29

I was a kid and my father would

38:33

read us PG Woodhouse

38:35

stories. You know PG Woodhouse? Yeah. We would

38:37

go to his study. His study was also

38:39

where the wood stove was. So we'd all

38:41

crowd around and he'd read us these stories.

38:44

And he would be in

38:47

the middle of a story and he

38:49

would start to crack up. Squealing would

38:51

laugh. He could not stop himself. And

38:54

of course then we're all cracking up.

38:56

We, you know, it was hilarious. But

38:58

the image of a person

39:00

looking at a page and

39:04

laughing uncontrollably, it's just miraculous to

39:06

me. I feel like my sort

39:09

of respect for the written word

39:11

partly comes from that

39:13

and that sort of joy that it

39:15

can bring people. And I feel like

39:17

even when I'm talking about

39:19

serious things, you know, in way of little

39:22

faith, there's chapters on death, there's chapters

39:25

on morality. I still think

39:27

it's important to be silly

39:30

and have fun. And if

39:33

we're not cracking up every once in a

39:35

while, you know, what are we even doing?

39:38

Well, I love it that after

39:41

this conversation, you

39:43

finally have something you feel is miraculous.

39:47

That's right. This has been a

39:49

really fun conversation, Kate. Thank you so

39:51

much. Good. It's a pleasure and

39:53

an honor. This

40:01

has been Clear and Vivid, at least I

40:03

hope so. My thanks

40:05

to the sponsor of this podcast and to

40:08

all of you who support our show on

40:10

Patreon. You keep Clear and

40:12

Vivid up and running. And

40:14

after we pay expenses, whatever is left

40:16

over goes to the Aldous Santiver Communicating

40:19

Science at Stony Brook University. So

40:21

your support is contributing to the better

40:23

communication of science. We're very

40:25

grateful. Kate

40:28

Cohen is a Washington Post contributing

40:30

columnist. Her new book

40:32

is We of Little Faith, Why

40:35

I Stopped Pretending to Believe, and

40:37

Maybe You Should Too. You

40:39

can check in with her at katecohen.net. This

40:44

episode was edited and produced by

40:46

our executive producer, Graham Chedd, with

40:49

help from our associate producer, Jean

40:51

Chumet. Our publicist is

40:53

Sarah Hill, our researcher

40:55

is Elizabeth Ohene, and

40:57

the sound engineer is Erica Hwang. The

41:00

music is courtesy of the Stefan Koenig

41:02

Trio. Next

41:12

in our series of conversations, I talk with

41:14

the charismatic actor Leslie Odom Jr. He's

41:17

one of the stars of the hit musical Hamilton

41:20

and the hit revival of the great

41:22

play by Ossie Davis, Pearly Victorious. Here

41:25

he is talking about the time he

41:27

discovered the exhilaration of abandoning

41:30

caution. And the next day I

41:32

came, I was so pissed off. I said, OK, you want

41:34

me to go to 10? I'm

41:36

going to go to 17. And

41:40

I'll show you, I'll show you. Not

41:42

only am I going to fail, this whole

41:44

production is going to fail. The

41:47

audience is going to walk out. They're

41:51

going to shut the show down.

41:53

And I hope you're happy. Like,

41:55

Alex, I was so

41:57

enraged and ready to show him

41:59

how. wrong he was that

42:02

I went to 17 and then I went to 18 and

42:04

25 and 37 and hit and the

42:10

sky opened up I don't know

42:12

if you saw Hamilton but I come out at

42:15

Hamilton I'm like how soon can I get to

42:17

17 like you

42:19

know in the opening number I'm trying to

42:22

get there as quick as possible because

42:24

I love that space now it's the

42:27

the abandon of that space Leslie

42:30

Odom jr. now starring in the hit

42:32

revival of the play pearly victorious next

42:35

time on clear and vivid for

42:38

more details about clear and vivid and to

42:40

sign up for my newsletter please

42:42

visit Alan Alda calm and

42:45

you can also find us on Facebook

42:47

and Instagram at clear and vivid thanks

42:50

for listening bye bye you

42:59

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