0:01

You've you. You've all been super organized

0:03

a be like your this week any

0:05

today and I yeah yeah, orchestra before

0:07

it's all going to refine. I've turned

0:09

up and like a disaster zone like

0:11

a little disaster but it's all good.

0:13

I'm here and not all of us

0:15

a. Welcome

0:32

to Cloud Realities, a conversation show

0:34

exploring the practical and exciting alternate

0:36

realities the can be unleashed through

0:38

cloud driven transformation. I'm Dave Chapman.

0:41

I'm Shaq is now. An hour of

0:43

Canon and this week we're going to

0:45

explore product Engineering. Know products engineering is

0:48

is a subject and moving to products

0:50

based organizations is something organizations often think

0:52

is really only the the space of

0:55

born in the cloud. Companies are digital

0:57

companies, but actually there are a lot

0:59

of complex organizations that are implementing these

1:02

structures. Were going to examine that today

1:04

and some of the challenges and opportunities

1:06

that it can create. but before we

1:08

get to that. I

1:13

wandered into the office see the day just

1:16

as Rob was finishing his new his new

1:18

implemented daily stand up. I think he was

1:20

about to go into the third our of

1:22

his daily stand up and I I wandered

1:25

over to him and I'm like whoa, what's

1:27

going on inside Will Active I'm really enthused

1:29

by agile frameworks at the moment and I

1:32

thought I'm going to implement. A.

1:34

Daily Standoff wherein I can really diggin' what's

1:36

going on. Say give me a minute and

1:38

and I'll tell you about what I'm confused

1:40

about this week's I said okay, I'll just

1:43

concern over there. Any couple of hours later

1:45

I got a chance. said rob, what you

1:47

confused about this week. Say

1:50

David's. Love. It. But you

1:52

know, I'm. Not the best at

1:54

paying attention for long periods of time so

1:56

I don't think that would work with my

1:59

with my it's. I'm not, I'm

2:01

not suggesting you are consistent with

2:03

enough for ourselves. we kept falling

2:05

asleep halfway through is mostly white.

2:07

say that they get mugged slightly

2:09

less beyond his sister's face. It

2:11

split between David. I'm mainly confused

2:14

about good intentions Gum Pods America

2:16

how sometimes the auto corrects itself

2:18

and sometimes it doesn't I think

2:20

I think with all fallen over

2:22

on auto corrected times when I

2:24

die of paper the you know

2:26

what I'm going to call eyes

2:28

the cookie low. Born

2:30

In Born in the right ethos but

2:33

badly implemented. So Data Privacy cookies. A

2:35

truck in a solo. The internet's what's

2:37

as a day. Wow. Privacy law rises

2:39

and says you have to have the

2:41

right to control you cookie. So often

2:44

this really clunky implementation comes in. All

2:46

the web sites have an exit cookie

2:48

buttons and you can manage your choices

2:50

but this two thousand items to go

2:52

through. Which basically means the as we

2:55

talked about it before people like evaded

2:57

said everybody just clicks access over these

2:59

yet. Or space of the Law

3:01

with gray intention ended up. I'm

3:03

not really achieving. Forty. One

3:06

and yo you roll out as yona you

3:08

just gotta call, be bothered accept cookies right?

3:10

Cf and it will happen was the tech

3:12

industry has looked to that problem space and

3:14

is caught up. And if you

3:16

look at what the crime engines do,

3:18

any liquid Apple and Android phones during

3:21

the starting to implement new privacy systems

3:23

where you set your preferences at the

3:25

coal which is basically don't let anybody

3:27

track me and then the platform itself

3:29

takes control of that. so the accept

3:31

cookie button in the next six months

3:33

will be redundant because the the phone

3:35

and the browser has completely separates. I'm

3:38

still confused about the it took a

3:40

long time for the tech companies to

3:42

catch up with something that may be

3:44

the legislators should have thought. about and

3:46

said it's within the platforms right to control

3:48

this not each individual websites cost a huge

3:50

amount of money to implement and ended up

3:53

being a farce and anyway and actually it

3:55

was easier just to him and platforms i'm

3:57

confused about why that thinking wasn't that up

3:59

from I remember when the law came in,

4:01

a lot of people said, why don't you

4:03

just control this straight from a browser choice?

4:05

And it's just default set and that's the

4:07

end of it. Isn't it just the classic

4:09

case of well-meaning legislators and governmental

4:12

bodies, even with the best one

4:14

in the world, maybe not quite

4:16

understanding the thing they're trying to

4:18

legislate against? So they're probably understanding

4:20

it from a point of view

4:22

of your rights, whether it

4:25

be your consumer rights, your human rights, whatever

4:27

it might be. What concerns

4:29

me about this is actually, it's probably less

4:31

about the example you cite though, I'm

4:34

ultra guilty of accepting all cookies that

4:37

ever pop up in my

4:39

browser. It is then what

4:41

I'm signing up to in years to come,

4:44

given the rise of the robots. And yeah,

4:46

and your data's already out there and consumed

4:48

and the protocols have been made and the

4:50

big companies already know who you are and

4:52

have done it. So I think we've passed

4:54

the Rubicon as well. So we're trying to

4:56

retrospectively install laws, but the data's there,

4:59

the horse has bolted, whatever analogy

5:01

you like, the time for something

5:04

like this was at the very

5:06

beginning of when the big corpse

5:08

were forming. Do you think it's

5:10

completely unfixable now we're so far

5:12

past the Rubicon that actually the

5:14

game's over? I think you

5:17

need to change your name, move

5:19

house and think about a new

5:21

persona online if you want to

5:23

just go, it's all being collected

5:25

and processed and gone. I

5:27

think you've resolved that problem, Rob, with a nice easy

5:29

fix for everyone. Thanks for your

5:33

time. Consumer advice again. Thanks, but

5:36

exactly. Consumer advice. That's

5:38

what they come here for. So Rob, thanks

5:40

for that. Now I'm delighted to introduce our

5:42

guest for today. He's going to help us

5:45

work our way through the thorny subjects

5:47

of products engineering. So I'm delighted

5:49

to say that joining us is

5:51

Steve Westgarth, head of products engineering

5:53

at Halion. Steve, very nice

5:55

to see you. Thanks for making the time to join

5:57

us. Do You want to just say hello and introduce

5:59

yourself? So first

6:01

of all really good to be here.

6:03

I'm I'm Steve was scarf on the

6:06

and global Head of Engineering Architects or

6:08

hi Liam and am I sit within

6:10

a product or guys a son or

6:12

within the organization where we look at

6:14

how we can build products the drive

6:16

better everyday consumer health care with humanity

6:19

across the organization. right?

6:21

Let's start these by talking about Helium themselves. Very

6:23

interesting company. Lots of things have happened over last

6:25

couple of years. Why don't you just give it

6:27

what he set the scene for us and just

6:29

give us some. So

6:32

so highly On is a consumer

6:34

healthcare company. Couple of years ago

6:36

Consumer Healthcare was spun out solve

6:38

a joke Tsk we were Gsk

6:40

Consumer Healthcare and Gsk had committed

6:42

see to float a is that

6:44

consume healthcare on as a brand

6:46

new limited company. So into I

6:48

Twenty Twenty two we separated from

6:50

Gsk. Somewhere. The return of twenty

6:52

thousand staff operating out of a hundred and

6:54

thirty odd countries. I'm selling products. you know

6:56

if we days things like censored I'm valter.

6:59

All I'm said from all those consumer healthcare

7:01

blinds used to buy me a pharmacist wrong

7:03

by highly on but the Bond as a

7:05

whole is is brand new. Two years ago

7:07

we didn't exist So and eleven billion billion

7:09

dollar company born out of your a huge

7:11

pharma company that you will have heard of

7:14

boat but as a company ourself Whistler stop

7:16

us from yourself for the most it. Yeah,

7:18

Amazing. Exciting have to say in what

7:20

does that mean for I T So

7:23

given you described it's interesting that as

7:25

I allowed you to go in with

7:27

sort of modern I see right from

7:29

the outset are you still dealing with

7:31

some legacy that's coming across from your

7:33

parent company? to really good

7:35

question so i think those so many

7:38

opportunities that we've had been so festival

7:40

separation was a huge challenge so imagine

7:42

a world where you have a multi

7:44

billion dollar company you go all your

7:46

system set up all your heights all

7:48

your payroll grp all of those core

7:51

systems has to be separated and set

7:53

up again from scratch in the new

7:55

company so i am that requires us

7:57

to am have you been to the

7:59

ocean required us to go

8:02

and literally create everything

8:05

from day one as

8:07

a new installation, new teams to

8:09

support all those applications, new vendor

8:11

relationships to support all those applications.

8:14

The undertaking really can't be understated in terms

8:16

of how big a job that was for

8:18

our tech teams and our tech organizations. As

8:20

a company though, we approached that in a

8:22

way which actually got us to a point

8:25

where on day one of

8:27

launch of Helion, compared to

8:29

many other comparators you would look

8:31

at that have separated in recent years,

8:34

we had total separation of everything.

8:37

Every system was our own and

8:39

we were running our own payroll. But

8:41

a lot of that was replicated from what

8:44

we had in GSCAT. It

8:46

was based upon a model that we knew worked

8:48

and understood. We had made

8:50

some decisions along the way, things like

8:53

you're needing to be cloud-first and the relationship

8:55

we have with Microsoft.

8:58

You're wanting to move our workloads from physical data

9:00

centers into the cloud was really important to us.

9:02

We did make some big decisions to

9:05

allow us to do that. But even in that world, you

9:08

were moving along where you didn't necessarily

9:10

have the opportunity to create

9:12

all of our applications in a cloud-native way. We

9:14

might be using the cloud as a petri as

9:16

a data center, but a lot of applications

9:18

have been put into the cloud on

9:20

VM technology or using not

9:23

necessarily cloud-native technology.

9:25

That I think is a longer term opportunity

9:28

for us as we rationalize and see how

9:30

we can better leverage the cloud to support

9:33

what we're doing as a company. I guess you

9:35

find yourself there in an organizational state

9:37

or application landscape state that's actually pretty

9:39

commonplace to be, right? Where you've got

9:42

stuff running on the cloud, but it might not

9:44

be completely cloudified at that point. But

9:46

you've actually got an opportunity point forward

9:49

to create a modernization agenda. You

9:51

do exactly that. I think that's

9:54

also why engineering is so important

9:56

to Hylian. So historically, GSK

9:58

had outsourced. Lots of it's

10:01

engineering work to third party vendors and that

10:03

was very effectively to the organization, the away

10:05

with some of our arms, some back or

10:07

technology or how was being built, how was

10:09

being supported and us with the decisions that

10:12

been made along the way. And it's launch

10:14

those systems and to look at how we

10:16

can build out and state where you haven't

10:18

got a thing and to end every time

10:21

somebody comes along with a new proposition so

10:23

thrive I joined the or guys a sneezes

10:25

global had of engineering in your January. Twenty

10:27

Twenty two I was about maybe six months

10:29

before. Separations In my remit there

10:31

has been to to really established

10:33

application Engineering as a discipline with

10:36

of the organization and in to

10:38

help the organization to understand how

10:40

we can how we can build

10:42

out a modern product aligned an

10:44

engineering practice where we can move

10:46

to a world where are we

10:48

can build a P I once

10:50

built on a scale on then

10:52

we use the many times across

10:54

different areas of the state so

10:56

spend a lot of time. Really?

10:59

Mature and are reaping. I spotted see and

11:01

looking at how we can unlock data within

11:03

the organization but on it in a way

11:05

that can be. We used by many many

11:07

different applications. Where where win a world? Where

11:09

am I Guess this is a flick was

11:12

a lot of companies off core systems your

11:14

homes lots of all day so it's kinda

11:16

locked away it's very difficult to integrate with

11:18

it was lots of bend the luck in

11:20

your within their systems and a lot of

11:22

of what we've been trying to do is

11:24

to look at our state's how we can

11:26

look up and allow us to to be

11:28

able. To I'm your To to allow

11:31

modern applications, new applications that we've built

11:33

to be able to get access to

11:35

the customer data that will be going

11:37

to drive I'm or Growth as we

11:39

move forward as is a really interesting

11:41

scenario because he has a one of

11:43

the big things that we talk about

11:45

the on the show Laughs is that

11:47

when you're pivoting an organization from. Legacy.

11:50

structures which very common things you're

11:53

talking about like data locked away

11:55

big vertical applications outsourcing contracts and

11:58

reskilling so when you pivoting that

12:00

organization and just

12:02

doing transformation without having, say, detached

12:04

and created a new startup

12:07

along the way, you're dealing

12:09

with this huge cultural change. It

12:11

seems to me, I wonder how

12:13

you'd reflect on that

12:15

versus the journey that you're on, where

12:17

you've inherited a lot of the technical

12:19

aspect of the legacy problems, but presumably,

12:22

you've got a chance to sort of create

12:24

new culture right from the outset. We

12:27

do. The culture is so important

12:29

as well. I mean, we're in a world where

12:31

I would say across the digital and tech organization,

12:35

70% of staff within digital and tech are

12:37

net new to Helion, 30% obviously

12:40

coming from GSK. So

12:42

it's quite interesting because GSK as a

12:45

company is a pharma company and that

12:47

comes with different regulatory requirements to what

12:49

a consumer healthcare company might have. And

12:52

that opens up a new opportunity for us as a

12:54

CPG to make

12:56

different decisions about some of our governance processes,

12:58

some of the things

13:01

that we're operating, how we're facilitating

13:03

our operations and our software and

13:05

technology build. So because

13:08

we're in a world where we can live with that

13:10

opportunity, we have a lot of new people who have

13:12

a lot of new ideas and want to mature the

13:14

estate. And what we're now

13:17

finding is as an organization, we're unpicking

13:20

how things have always been done around here and looking at

13:23

how we can improve some of those processes, how

13:25

we can become more efficient as an organization,

13:27

how we can really

13:30

drive business value as an organization by

13:32

making things less complex. So I think

13:34

there's definitely been a lot of thought

13:37

given to how we can

13:40

drive efficiency with the organization and how

13:42

we can look to make better bang

13:44

for our buck if you like with

13:46

the investments that we're making. So

13:49

we're really intelligently looking at how we

13:51

can consolidate technology, how we can

13:53

use things in multiple areas

13:55

of the organization, how we can use Fewer

13:58

technologies in our tech stacks. All your

14:00

blessings to support so is this rationalization

14:02

exercise yo It is accessing a really

14:05

healthy thing for the organization today and

14:07

in from software engineering point of view

14:09

and and also with it makes sense

14:11

because you know we're in a world

14:14

where. I've inherited. Hundreds.

14:17

Of we post on there are You Literally

14:19

tens of different languages have been used your

14:21

to build some of these applications and from

14:24

a maintenance point of view if if I

14:26

for the support thirty or forty different held

14:28

in languages it's it's very difficult to to

14:30

do that your how can you possibly

14:32

have the skills to cover the anti A

14:35

breath of annual cause I see so so

14:37

we need to be more strategic about your

14:39

what what tools technologies languages were using to

14:42

build some of these applications while of the

14:44

same time not stifling innovation and still giving.

14:47

Our engineers the freedom of expression to

14:49

leverage the like this quite as tech

14:51

and also being aware that technology is

14:53

constantly moving and we need to keep

14:55

pace with way it with where technology

14:57

that and then not quite a quite

14:59

a difficult line to try to. And.

15:02

I think he south of if I am

15:04

sunday correctly of anti south like product remains

15:06

that aligns a. Big. Sections of the

15:08

business. but then you're managing product engineering

15:10

as a tribe across. The organization is

15:12

that broadly in the right. So plus

15:14

some other stuff. Neither a ballpark I

15:16

mean, so I am. I talk a

15:18

lot about the main doesn't design. And.

15:22

You that they're obviously different ways to

15:24

this in this cost different organizations will

15:26

do in different ways. But as if

15:28

you think back to Iraq Evans book

15:30

am Wix your Alex it is how

15:32

we can talk in the same language

15:34

is ah business We we have this

15:36

concept of coal mine so cold minds

15:38

are the reason that we exist there,

15:40

how were driving revenue and the organization

15:42

and code remains all of the things

15:44

that we're going to innovate and your

15:46

the things that are willing to differentiate

15:48

highly on so so those for me

15:50

or candidates to. Have you make

15:53

sure we could really good in house

15:55

knowledge of that is yo at actively

15:57

working on on some of those those

15:59

product line. Screams aligned to our business

16:01

strategies. Your the businesses very interested in

16:03

how we talk about some of those

16:05

technologies and what we're doing and and

16:07

with the outcomes. Went live once and

16:09

I then talk about generic subbed mine.

16:11

So a generic sub domain is something

16:13

which is a solved problem. So I'm

16:15

think about content management for example style

16:18

highly on should never I would argue

16:20

be in a position where we're going

16:22

to build content management system I'll be

16:24

ridiculous thing to dicks there are so

16:26

many content management systems of that you

16:28

would buy off the shelf. Really

16:30

important that it into a twelve hour ecosystem

16:32

so I really interested in Mccloskey Texture were

16:35

talking about and which is composed of Oaks

16:37

Ip I first a p I driven probably

16:39

was some sort of venting solution so we

16:41

can start. you're pushing content. The services doing

16:43

all those sorts of things was still something

16:45

which when a by of the shelf to

16:47

solve problems your past service that we're going

16:49

into buying and then you've got this idea

16:51

of of am supporting subbed minds So this

16:53

is your where We know this winter bison

16:55

this needed. It's probably a solved problem lot

16:58

of people don't before but no are not.

17:00

U S P. It's not where we would what

17:02

not were invited so. I. Have a

17:04

good example of that might be payments for

17:06

example. So everybody tax payments. there's a lot

17:08

of different payment provides out they eat into

17:11

grip of Can do you stay back and

17:13

do ya pain and all those things split

17:15

again. It's something the potentially is is a

17:17

really good space for a partner ecosystem to

17:19

operate and and we start to say wealth

17:21

and because were in in a P I

17:23

ecosystem that that's you're going away we're building

17:25

we want to be creating. Maybe a way

17:28

to describe this would be almost Can in

17:30

your internal software is a service products so.

17:32

Ominous put it to effectively Capability Sosa Think

17:35

about capabilities as things like payments or analytics

17:37

or order management or transaction management. So's bounded

17:39

context. They might be leveraging pasa of Assist

17:41

in Iraq sub domains that the we bought

17:44

off the shelf. They might be integrated into

17:46

the A state but the the concepts here

17:48

is is a Wednesday or a product line

17:50

scene comes along thanks to be able to

17:53

pick and choose these composer will services they

17:55

want to use and then we use those

17:57

within their up with haste. Think about speeds.

18:00

The take a different context of them highly

18:02

and think about something like payments if you're

18:04

going into a Paypal Fargo to develop it

18:06

or paypal.com and very quickly I could integrate

18:08

Pay Paul into my site because if give

18:10

me some sample code this will buy documentation

18:13

and he simply on through the into your

18:15

yeah stop and suddenly half an hour later

18:17

there are Co payments and have been taken.

18:19

I see that is very similar far capabilities

18:21

internally So we have this model where you

18:24

can pick and choose the capabilities you want

18:26

a week standardized around Bucks states die oh

18:28

to your give. Really good internal visibility. And

18:30

disc of ability of all of our if

18:32

the ice and services was really good documentation

18:34

that engineers can use to. The idea is

18:37

to Boone Pickens use all of these applications.

18:39

We've written some internal sdk used to able

18:41

to be used and then you can leverage

18:43

that's part of the up with a since

18:45

and and although we owe it were only

18:47

two years into this journey. but I think

18:49

you're so far that approaches is really starting

18:51

to pay dividends because that's where where would

18:53

he saw the drive to we use of

18:56

your demands from capability for example, we've done

18:58

one. Less. Ebay and and your

19:00

we'll need to integrate yo we don't need

19:02

to do that again for the of these

19:04

kids are that we gotta go. I'm interested

19:07

in having to levels of how our whole

19:09

ecosystem is to farming and the first from

19:11

the point of view of the consuming business

19:14

so how's it feeling to the comes to

19:16

the consuming business to the see like they

19:18

are now feeling intimate with that process and

19:20

feeding like they've got like a new innovation

19:23

speed that the been looking for and then

19:25

just to get elsewhere table a second element

19:27

is for one of the developers. Within the

19:29

ecosystem how do you feel like like it's functioning

19:31

in the are you functioning yet at the saw

19:34

tic speed the you want to be running or.

19:37

Definitely saw think I'm from the for

19:39

businesses point of he. it

19:41

definitely has had an impact on how quickly we

19:43

can achieve some of the things that that we've

19:46

been trying to achieve still though this is your

19:48

right now i'm isn't in in every area of

19:50

our business feel it's it's still a switch and

19:52

you can be going on seats i think

19:54

where where where we've seen your success i think

19:57

your it's it's definitely seen some some radical

19:59

improvement in in speed to market. And you've

20:01

come along and you've been able to do something

20:03

within a couple of months that actually achieve what

20:05

we want to achieve. So it

20:08

really has had a massive impact where

20:10

we've been able to deliver these sorts

20:12

of techniques with our business, which I

20:14

think is really having a tangible difference.

20:17

And when you've done this massive transformation,

20:19

you've greatly improved agility, very progressive

20:22

engineering thought process linking with

20:24

the business, creating

20:27

very high performing teams. Do you ever

20:29

go back to your GSK colleagues

20:32

where you came from and you split

20:34

from? And I know there are a

20:36

more regulated area, but do you compare

20:38

notes on the successes you had and

20:40

share strategy and see if there's something

20:42

that can benefit both? Is

20:45

that a conversation you sustain? Because you've

20:47

done an awful lot to transform the

20:49

way IT delivers to the business very

20:51

successfully. So I was just wondering if

20:53

there's still a compare notes process that

20:55

goes on. So

20:57

we are now a separate company. So I

21:00

joined Halion six months before separation. So

21:02

I haven't really got deep rooted contact

21:04

back within GSK. So although there has

21:06

definitely been conversations and obviously your GSK

21:09

is still you're a good friend of

21:11

Halion and will remain so. I

21:14

wouldn't say that we're actively comparing notes

21:16

and approach. What I

21:18

would say is though that as

21:20

a tech leader, I

21:23

get involved with a lot of

21:25

peers and colleagues and other organizations

21:28

and do evangelize a lot about this approach that we're going

21:30

to take. Even the fact I'm doing this podcast with you

21:32

today, I talk a lot

21:34

about some good benefits that this has driven and the

21:36

community it kind of brings. And I

21:38

do talk a lot about where many

21:40

of us are in non-computing industries and

21:42

a lot of the problems we're trying

21:45

to solve here are common across lots

21:47

of different types of organizations. I

21:49

think there's two things that I think I've learned is

21:51

I've kind of you went through my career and then

21:53

kind of your experiment with some of these things. The

21:56

first is the importance of having

21:58

long lived squad. regards how

22:00

you're funding something, but people that

22:02

know your organization, you're working with

22:04

you, you're for the long term,

22:07

is critical. And I don't

22:09

care whether those people are internal people

22:11

or whether they come from a partner

22:13

organization. However you're choosing to resource and

22:15

to scale up your engineering team, that

22:18

doesn't really matter. But the

22:20

importance is continuity. Because

22:22

you're actually by building that, you build so much

22:25

knowledge inside your teams and actually

22:27

where you lose velocity and where you

22:29

lose time is when you're

22:31

between programs and between projects, when something spins

22:33

down and something else spins up. That

22:36

knowledge which is lost, it's really intangible. And

22:39

I don't think people really appreciate how significant

22:41

that is to an engineering organization. So long-term

22:44

teams is the first thing that I would say is super

22:48

important. And actually within that,

22:50

what I've also found very effective is you're

22:52

taking work to the team. And

22:55

so as you are making this engagement around the role that you're

22:57

pushing and pushing it should be a useful idea to drive

23:00

completing work through or for the current components,

23:03

one of the Lanc breath coordinatorinco, are they there for you? And

23:06

anyone looking out for the technology has the funding

23:51

lines to be affected. It

23:53

requires a lot of change within an org to

23:55

make sure that the product can thrive. So

23:57

I Think there are a couple of different archetypes. The

24:00

we are so so I'm off. Each

24:02

I born is the true product organization

24:04

so you're against my bounded context of

24:06

two minds away. you have a team

24:08

that is it to a d against

24:10

important backlog in that's a long lived

24:12

thing. We're trying to live for the

24:14

team. this website to see commerce, destination,

24:16

whatever might be the where it's writing

24:18

and in developing on that that's aligned

24:20

to evaluating in the business. So soft

24:22

as one archetypes feel. the rocky type

24:24

of engineering we thought is what I

24:26

would tim continuous delivery on. this is

24:28

where you've got ad hoc demands. Of

24:30

things in our business with somebody is come

24:32

along and said hey I need to make

24:34

a change to this hey I called this

24:37

request or to my thoughts your hi I

24:39

need I just need to do this because

24:41

from unable something for what I'm doing so

24:43

what when we have a demand we we

24:45

have this this concept of continuous live with

24:47

into so was reported line whites to slip

24:49

a backlog islam a roadmap that it's it's

24:52

filled out for them both but that demand

24:54

is very much skill set based. So I

24:56

have some Ios jobs with engineers. I've got

24:58

some platform engineers, I've got some. Your

25:00

some some skill sets for the your maybe

25:02

if he ions whatever my face and. And

25:05

you're you're driving not demand seem to seem

25:08

to has the right skills to do it

25:10

and I think that that's another archetype the

25:12

will sway wealth and in both those scenarios

25:14

actually I'm in the funding guess it's importance

25:17

of but but if you're many people your

25:19

companies will work with with programs and this

25:21

is why work with programs and distance and

25:23

hims where the work rights very much at

25:26

your age and sandals you like your read.

25:28

It is no different to be something of

25:30

a business of the software development house and

25:32

selling my services that waited to multiple different

25:35

businesses and. by thinking this would

25:37

be like dancing can run how you

25:39

can without having to change all your

25:41

internal processes and since how your funding

25:43

i'm all of your projects and programs

25:45

initiatives you could you can actually can

25:47

meet your finance teams half way and

25:49

realize that to be odds i'll you

25:51

don't you don't necessarily need to have

25:53

yo we return the way we do

25:55

everything around here you can adopts and

25:57

than in mecca work which it it's

25:59

like to as being agile, right? So

26:01

there's a lot said, you used the big

26:03

A word in that answer there and it

26:05

felt like maybe to bring today's

26:08

conversation to a little bit of a conclusion, it

26:10

barely feels like we've scratched the surface. I just

26:12

want to talk to you about agile and it's

26:15

a well-worn path. So I'm all

26:17

about driving autonomy to the teams. I mean, this is

26:19

a big agile, your agile principle. How do you make

26:21

your autonomous teams that are

26:23

able to make independent decisions? Now

26:26

in commanding control management structures where you've got

26:28

people who need updates and all those things,

26:30

it's actually quite difficult to go off control

26:33

and give the team autonomy. But

26:35

one of the things we do, every six

26:37

weeks, each team comes

26:39

in with their leadership, so the product owner,

26:41

the engineering manager, the principal engineer, and we

26:43

have a health check and they

26:46

require some content, tell us what's

26:48

going well in the team, what our achievements are, what

26:50

team changes have got, what our challenges are, what

26:53

management intervention and what management support that

26:55

they need. And you actually find that

26:57

because you've given that accountability to the

26:59

engineers, certainly in my experience, they embrace

27:01

that and they go, this is brilliant

27:03

because actually we've got total control of

27:05

our own world. We can change what

27:07

we want in our world and that's all

27:09

good. The things we can't change, the things

27:11

you're outside of our control, I've now got a

27:13

mechanism by which people are genuinely interested in helping

27:15

my team to get better. So

27:18

to bring that kind of around, I mean, there are so

27:20

many topics in the space that I can talk about, but

27:22

I think organizations need

27:24

to stop talking about frameworks. I

27:26

think that's not where we're going.

27:28

I think we need to be talking truly about

27:31

what drives true business agility. And

27:33

the thing which does that is your product

27:35

line teams, your teams

27:37

that are the same individuals who you aren't spinning

27:39

up and spinning down teams according to work and

27:43

moving to a world where teams are able To

27:46

work with as much autonomy as you possibly

27:48

can and as few dependencies as you possibly

27:50

can. And Linking that back to the domain-driven

27:52

design stuff has found a context. That's a

27:54

really great way of trying to move to

27:57

a world where you haven't got as many

27:59

dependencies between teams. Enables them to to

28:01

any conclusions, South.

28:14

Or even looking at the sweet so. Each

28:16

I do some research on related ideas

28:18

and transformation and tech and this week

28:21

I thought was take a look at

28:23

the five key characteristics of high performing

28:25

teams. So high performing teams. consistency. Meet

28:27

their goals were. Cohesively as a

28:29

unit and are engaged in

28:32

their work. So what makes

28:34

a high performing team so

28:36

successful? First, trust is essential

28:38

for teams to reach their

28:40

full potential. clear communication, clearly

28:42

defined roles, present conflicts and

28:44

boost productivity, and Gates leaders

28:46

provide direction without micromanaging, and

28:48

last, the collective goals and

28:50

sure that individual contributions aligned

28:52

with the seems overall. Success.

28:54

So a question. Are

28:57

these the most important elements

28:59

of high performance? Heaps, Such.

29:01

A very interesting list earnings to

29:04

very key things and me that.

29:07

We. Need to think about first his

29:09

purpose and maybe that goes to

29:11

go Point people with a purpose

29:13

are better at creating something, especially

29:15

when it's a purpose of passionate

29:17

about and thus not increase shareholder

29:19

value, thus create a new experience

29:21

or something special or how. Assists

29:24

in our the consumer or whatever I

29:26

think the second point is they all

29:28

come together to make happiness and happy

29:30

people. I'm not not Sli more productive

29:32

so I think purpose and happiness and

29:35

leadership. Focusing on creating purpose. the isn't

29:37

some moronic business concepts and so the

29:39

happiness that goes with their remit. A

29:41

podcast that America is a specific filling

29:44

up guy yes but that stuff so

29:46

of just focus on the numbers bit

29:48

doesn't motivate the average person to go

29:50

and do something great. She got up

29:52

and then you've. Got a general happiness

29:55

of the environment. We talk about psychological

29:57

safety in their interest as a big

29:59

part. About out but without those underlying

30:01

facets. All the things you talk about

30:03

I think maybe don't work as well

30:06

as I think some foundations for success

30:08

I would maybe layering around those to

30:10

save you don't have those you don't

30:12

get. The other things he talked about

30:14

i was going if I was going

30:16

or a psychological thirsty I think it's

30:18

a like an imperative in those sorts

30:20

of environments because one of the things

30:23

that high performing teams do. Better

30:25

Way better than low performing seems is

30:27

the level of challenge that's involves an

30:29

idiot challenging each other the whole time.

30:32

To improve what you do him that

30:34

digital products or whether that's you know

30:36

kind of any type of work frankly

30:38

to doesn't really matter but you you

30:40

can't have edgy challenge without without a

30:42

level of cycle of society in the

30:44

same as feels like to me. The

30:46

the other thing I observe which is

30:48

a bit around the boundaries of the

30:51

of the list that you had which

30:53

is. As you ready as. People.

30:56

My been listening and he and I

30:58

have i at how funny or on

31:00

oh it's all quite obvious side then

31:02

of course you should have a clear

31:04

reason to do this and of course

31:06

she should measure things and procedures but

31:08

it's funny how many teams don't send

31:10

you got it that? That's the big

31:12

question to me which is like. It's.

31:14

It's worth taking a step back and looking the

31:16

even how kind of your team functions at the

31:18

moment or whatever it isn't. just go as they

31:20

have a got the basics. Of. Clean

31:23

lines in place here. Before

31:25

you even get to the more complex stuff

31:27

you know as a adding Steve were in

31:29

when you were closing. your point is don't

31:32

focus on frameworks, but folks on driving autonomy

31:34

in empowerment so that people can do the

31:36

right saying well. And I think that that

31:38

motivates people a lot when they're given the

31:40

freedom to be able to bills what they

31:42

know they need to build and it's everybody

31:45

comes to Xd the right thing. Yeah, so.

31:47

It's in the environment that allows them to do what they need

31:49

to The. and

31:51

unless psychological sixty points are just going back

31:53

of house total health checks is a really

31:55

good example of this a few weeks ago

31:58

where we went into a health check and

32:00

we have a team scorecard where I can do various

32:02

metrics and things that go out once a quarter. In

32:06

this particular thing, there's a team that looks after

32:08

enterprise search for us and they're measured

32:10

really on the number of users of enterprise search. One

32:12

of the things we're trying to do is drive more

32:14

users of search. So I

32:17

made an independent decision where we

32:19

had a stagnant three quarters of your not

32:21

increased usage and actually in some cases decline

32:23

in the use of enterprise search and I

32:25

downgraded it from a green to

32:27

an amber RAG rating. We went

32:30

into this team health check and the principal

32:32

engineer came in and he was like, yeah,

32:34

we just want to have a conversation about

32:36

the scorecard. The other team was really disappointed

32:39

that we were downgraded from a green to

32:41

an amber. We didn't understand why it happened. I

32:44

jumped off the back and I was like, you're what?

32:46

You're actually, I'm so sorry. I should have went into

32:48

the team and had a conversation with you before we

32:50

made that decision to explain to you why

32:52

we were going from green to amber and to help you kind

32:54

of go through that.

32:56

It made me realize that actually as

32:59

a leader, you're leading agile teams. You

33:01

make all these autonomous decisions and kind

33:03

of things, but that can have

33:05

a massive impact on the psychological safety within

33:08

the team. If I hadn't had that

33:10

health check opportunity where I'm kind of going into the team

33:12

and the team has the opportunity

33:14

and they're encouraged to challenge me, I thought it was a

33:16

really healthy thing for the team to call me out on

33:18

because they were actually spot on. I should

33:20

have absolutely had that conversation first. But

33:23

how many times do you have this thing where leadership's

33:25

made a decision and something's happened, the team doesn't

33:27

understand what it is and because you've got that

33:29

disconnect, that definitely damages the

33:31

psychological safety of the teams. I

33:33

think this comes to open and good communication lines

33:36

with the teams, understanding what the

33:38

team challenges is and the importance of leadership,

33:40

of having personal relationships with people in the

33:42

team so that they're aware that they can

33:45

have a robust conversation with you and then

33:47

call you out if something that you've done

33:50

isn't the right thing to have done. Yeah, absolutely.

33:52

Absolutely. And that's a great

33:54

conversation this afternoon. Lots of

33:57

room in that to explore more

33:59

deeply. There's been a brilliant

34:01

insight into the challenges as creating

34:03

a child both big and small.

34:05

A product engineering teams in complex

34:07

organization sustain. Thank you very much

34:09

Indeed, your time sustenance. Thank.

34:11

You very much for inviting me out places.

34:13

So we ended with sort of this podcast

34:15

spice asking our guests what they're excited about

34:17

doing next and that might be of got

34:19

a great restaurant or on do something exciting

34:21

at the weekend or it could be something

34:23

in your professional life so see what you

34:25

excited about do next. So

34:28

I'm actually I could lead to die

34:30

so I've I'm normally by since esta

34:32

and in accidents been interesting kinds of

34:34

his. We started to get in such

34:36

this podcast making all of my work

34:38

in a different location of i thought

34:40

because I'm don't see a very good

34:42

friends fiftieth birthday of view as a

34:44

surprise party tonight so amps I'm I'm

34:46

of out for that which is is

34:48

gonna be great zubov and then hadn't

34:50

missed a test an eel on on

34:52

Saturday at some point. so really excited

34:54

up.sounds great for a couple of things.

34:56

so so. Is go out well as to

34:59

your friends and birthday fi So yeah to

35:01

spoil the auto renewal run out on the

35:03

earth on spoiling that which is good for

35:05

everybody I think it's but also yeah the

35:07

arrangements of having to record this over five

35:09

g phone has been podcasting and a nice

35:11

i just think I would refer to a

35:13

dangerous podcasting his his yes indeed We should

35:15

have a range of music going on in

35:17

the background as even even it was assumed

35:19

the i'd say like a tightrope walk. So

35:21

thanks to Bury with the save it's been

35:23

there is made a pleasure talking the So

35:25

a huge thanks. To I guess this week's

35:27

d Thank you so much for being on

35:29

the show. Thanks also to a sound and

35:32

editing Ways It's been a Luis or Echoing

35:34

producer Marcel and of course to all of

35:36

a listeners were all linked in and access

35:38

Chapman, Roka, and and South South so free

35:40

to follow or connect with us and sees

35:42

getting such if you have any comments. Or

35:44

this for the shells. And of course if you.

35:46

Haven't already done that race and

35:48

subscribe to our focus. See you

35:51

in another reality next to. Me: