0:07

I'm Ariel Wilkins and this is coaching Real

0:10

Leaders part of the H B or Podcast

0:12

network. I'm a long time executive coach who

0:14

works with highly successful leaders who have a

0:17

bump in the road. My job is to

0:19

help them get over that by clarifying their

0:21

goals and figuring out a way to reach

0:23

them so that hopefully they can lead with

0:26

a little more ease. I typically work with

0:28

clients over the course of several months, but

0:30

on this show we have a one time

0:32

coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge

0:35

they're facing. Today's

0:42

guess this someone will call Sabrina

0:44

to protect her confidentiality. She's an

0:46

Hr leader at a global company

0:48

and has been in the industry

0:50

for a few decades. I am

0:52

a driver and so I'm always

0:54

looking for something new and challenging.

0:57

A New Hills. What was

0:59

new for me when I made the transition

1:01

to more broader? Hr was that it was

1:03

something I had never done because I had

1:05

such a strong technical background. I

1:07

start. My own business, you know, shortly after

1:10

that. And what was exciting about that

1:12

man is the fact that I had

1:14

to work with multiple clients. I reinvented

1:16

myself multiple times during. That. Time

1:18

and I think put just keeps

1:21

me moving. And set my desire and

1:23

to want to grow. I want to learn

1:25

something new in every role that I take

1:27

on. Now that

1:29

she's further along in her career and

1:32

in a different place in her life,

1:34

Sabrina wants to continue to pursue new

1:36

interesting opportunities, but in a different way.

1:38

She feels like she isn't learning as

1:41

much as she used to and is

1:43

itching for that new challenge. When I

1:45

look at the first half of my

1:48

career, the striving felt different because I

1:50

was in my twenties, the my thirties

1:52

and reason children who are now grown.

1:55

I was a single but I'm still

1:57

am a single parent. The motivation. was

1:59

to to make sure my family was very

2:01

well cared for because I'm their sole provider. I

2:04

think it's a different point of view now than

2:06

I had in the first half of my career. The

2:09

striving feels different. I

2:11

characterized the first half of my career as a

2:13

hustle, like I was hustling a lot.

2:17

And I don't feel as motivated to hustle,

2:19

but that doesn't mean I don't still have drive

2:22

and ambition to do well and

2:24

to do more things and to have greater impact

2:26

in my work. And so

2:28

as I look at this, I guess I call it

2:30

the back half of my career, I'm

2:32

more looking at how I want to end

2:34

it versus where I want it to go, which

2:37

feels like a different perspective to look at my career.

2:39

And so I'm less clear

2:41

what it looks like to strive at

2:43

this phase in my career. Sabrina

2:46

recognizes she's still ambitious, but wants help

2:48

in navigating what that ambition means at

2:50

this stage in her career and life.

2:54

So let's start the coaching session as I asked

2:56

her how exactly she's feeling about her

2:58

work right now and how

3:00

that's different from previous years. I'm

3:04

feeling less certain

3:06

about what the next

3:08

step should be, which is unusual for me

3:10

because I'm a planner. Although

3:13

I know there's not a straight path to anything

3:15

because if anyone knows anything

3:17

about my history, it has a lots of

3:19

curves and bumps. But

3:21

before I always had a vision for

3:24

what was next. And right now I

3:26

don't have a super clear vision. And

3:28

so that feels different to me and

3:30

uncomfortable. I usually

3:32

know what mountain I'm climbing. And

3:34

this time I'm not, I know I'm gonna wanna climb a mountain.

3:36

I'm just not sure which one. I mean,

3:38

what if this is the mountain? It's

3:41

a great question. I

3:43

don't know. I mean, you said it's

3:45

uncomfortable. Yeah. It's

3:48

challenging right now. It is.

3:51

I finished something really big last year and I

3:55

have a lot of really big accomplishments in

3:57

my life. And people ask me when

3:59

I'm gonna. I just rest and be content

4:01

in what I've achieved. And

4:04

I did that for about a

4:06

year, maybe a year and a half

4:08

now. And now I'm just ready for whatever's next and

4:10

I'm just not sure what it is. And

4:12

maybe the challenge is that I need to

4:15

be content. I'm kind of thinking about

4:17

when I end my career in 15 years,

4:20

what do I want that exit to look like? Say

4:23

for example, I exited my career now and stayed in my current

4:25

role for the next 15 years, which I

4:27

just don't see happening. But let's say that kids, this

4:30

wouldn't be where I want to exit. It

4:32

doesn't feel like it's the place. Yeah. You

4:35

know, you use the term content. It's

4:38

not what you're feeling is your motivation right now.

4:41

Yeah. And in no way, you know, when

4:43

I said maybe this is the mountain, I said

4:45

the mountain for now, doesn't mean that it has to

4:47

be the mountain forever, but it's

4:49

feeling challenging to you right now. So I'm

4:52

curious about a word that

4:54

you've used to describe yourself is,

4:56

you know, as a striver. So

4:59

what does that even mean to you?

5:03

To me it means it's

5:06

hard for me to be happy

5:09

with where I've gone. Like there's

5:11

always one step further I should

5:13

have gone. This

5:16

has been ingrained in me though, since

5:18

I was young. And

5:20

A was never good enough. It

5:23

was, why wasn't it A plus? That

5:25

wasn't an A and an AP class. So

5:28

I think that that kind of

5:30

mentality is still in my mind when I think

5:32

about I'm always striving for,

5:35

I don't want to say good enough, but maybe that's what

5:38

it is. Like, is this good enough? Am I happy

5:40

with what I have now? And

5:43

so how does that notion of always wanting

5:46

to go for

5:49

something else that will make you happier,

5:51

right? Because when you are right now

5:53

is not good enough.

5:56

How does that work out for you? I

5:59

mean, it's gotten me. I am, I

6:01

have a lot of track record

6:03

of successes. I guess if I

6:05

looked at like the shadow side of that,

6:07

it might be that I rarely have this

6:10

sense like I used earlier of being content,

6:13

because I'm always looking for the next big thing

6:16

around the corner. And that's why I said this

6:18

last year, where I kind of took a pause

6:21

and didn't do that so much was

6:23

good. But I'm

6:26

antsy again. Yeah. So

6:28

let me ask you a question. What would it look

6:30

like for you to be content and look

6:34

for what's next around the corner? Hmm,

6:36

it's a good question. I don't

6:39

know. I'm trying to think of what that would look like.

6:41

I don't I, it's funny, I

6:43

studied paradox. So that's it feels like paradox

6:45

to me. I'm trying

6:47

to figure out a situation where I could be

6:50

content and strive. Why

6:53

didn't they strive? I said look for what's around

6:55

the corner. Because

6:58

inherent in that is, and I don't know, I

7:00

mean, I'm just playing around here. You

7:03

know, I mean, inherent in what you're saying is

7:05

that the two are mutually exclusive. Right?

7:08

You're either content, or

7:10

you're looking for what's

7:12

next. And then inherent

7:15

in that is also that there's a causality.

7:18

The only reason you would look for something around the

7:20

corner is if you're not content. I

7:23

don't know. I mean, I went to

7:25

a phenomenal restaurant this past weekend. I

7:27

was very pleased with the dish. And

7:31

I was looking at the menu like, Hmm,

7:34

what else could I have? Yeah.

7:39

If not today, maybe next time

7:41

we come. Right? Yeah, but

7:43

I was very, very satisfied. But

7:46

looking forward to what's

7:48

next. Yeah, it's

7:52

a good perspective. And I,

7:55

to say it that way, and I kind of think about

7:57

what I'm doing, I do

7:59

think being content For example, I've

8:01

really to like my current role. For.

8:03

You. Enjoy it. I

8:05

like the level of pat. A.

8:09

Hundred percent think I could be delivering

8:11

war. and have higher level

8:13

and pats. Where. I am. So.

8:16

I feel content and and proud of the

8:18

work that I'm doing where I am, but

8:20

at the same time. I'm

8:23

having conversations outside of my.

8:25

Organization. And

8:28

are not necessarily interviews, but it's

8:30

more of conversations with people externally

8:32

to understand what's happening. In

8:35

other places see and that to me

8:37

is a little bit of looking around

8:39

the corner he he to seeing what's

8:42

available. Okay what my opportunities

8:44

might be in my next. And

8:47

what does it feel like for you to do them?

8:50

That third for me because. I worry

8:52

that it will distract me from the good work

8:54

I'm doing and my current wrong. And

8:56

I don't want to distract from that because it

8:58

said, Like I said it's a high impact

9:01

ball he he. That delivers a

9:03

lot of value to the leaders that

9:05

I work with and so I don't

9:07

want to adversely impact that, but at

9:09

the same time at also excites me

9:12

and learning again. By.

9:14

Going external. And just talking to

9:16

people outside of my own organization? Aca.

9:20

Yeah, I mean you said you

9:22

have. Kids. That sounds like they're

9:24

adults. Thrown. Launched.

9:27

Assess A mostly launched them. I mostly

9:30

launched them all at once. Leah, I'm

9:32

looking forward to the day. Yes, and

9:34

that brings up a good point. I

9:37

mean, I don't know, Like, as you

9:39

were raising your kids when they were

9:41

younger, Were. They are ever moment.

9:45

When. You could.

9:48

Enjoy them for where they were.

9:52

At that age. And

9:54

look forward to when they

9:56

would launch. Guess all

9:58

the time. All the time.

10:01

All the time. Although, I think with

10:03

them in particular, it was more present,

10:05

I hope. It's

10:08

interesting to compare the

10:10

two. Sorry, I'm having

10:12

like a reflection on all

10:14

the great times that I had raising them.

10:16

Yeah, but you said you were more present,

10:18

right? Like, felt that way. And

10:21

what I'm not hearing is, if I

10:25

thought about the future and I thought about

10:27

when they would launch, it

10:30

would mean that I'm not being present, that I'm

10:32

being distracted. Yeah, it's true.

10:35

And so what's the difference between

10:37

that and being able to apply

10:39

the same thing at work?

10:43

I don't know what the difference is,

10:45

but it definitely feels different.

10:48

So there's this interesting duality

10:50

I feel when I go

10:52

outside of my organization just to

10:54

explore because I'm exploring, it feels

10:57

like I have two motivations. I'm exploring

10:59

to learn more than I can bring

11:01

into my current role and grow

11:03

it. But I also have

11:05

a second layer of my listening and

11:07

exploration where I'm kind of listening and being attuned to, hmm,

11:10

what are the opportunities out there and how

11:12

am I fostering these relationships outside? So

11:16

there's a small piece of me that feels

11:18

duplicitous in that way. And so

11:21

that just, I'm trying to

11:23

negotiate that piece a little bit. Duplicitous

11:25

to who? To the organization that I

11:27

work for and then

11:29

the opportunities I'm looking

11:32

for, potentially outside of the

11:34

organization. Because the organization

11:36

you work for, I'm trying

11:38

to understand why it would be duplicitous

11:40

to them. I think every organization

11:43

hopes that the people that work for them

11:45

have some level of, I

11:47

hate to use the word loyalty, but loyalty. To

11:50

the work that you're doing there and focus

11:53

to the work that you're doing there. So

11:56

I think that's where that comes from. Yeah.

11:59

So then what is... causing you to listen to it

12:01

for yourself as well. Because

12:03

I don't feel content. So

12:07

that's why I said it's, this

12:09

is the part where I'm just trying to navigate it.

12:11

I like my role. I love the people.

12:14

At the same time, there's

12:16

that, is this it? Is

12:19

this all for me? I can

12:21

feel there's more. I'm

12:24

wanting to take that next step, whether it's within

12:26

my organization or outside. And

12:29

I think I just want to be more secure in

12:31

what that next step should be. Okay.

12:35

So what I'm curious about, and we've used the word,

12:37

we've thrown around the word content for quite a bit,

12:39

right? Like, what does it even mean for you to

12:41

be content? And to know

12:43

that this is a, like, what is it? I'm

12:47

not sure. What

12:49

I'm pausing with is, I

12:51

guess there's a question that pops up in

12:53

my head, which is, I've been the kind

12:55

of person that about every two to three

12:57

years, I want

12:59

to do something new. When I ran

13:01

my own business for a long time, it

13:03

really worked out well because while I

13:05

had long tenure as a business owner, I had

13:09

multiple clients. So it was always something

13:11

new. And I wonder

13:13

if the contentness has to do

13:15

with, I just feel

13:17

like I'm stagnating somehow in the

13:19

current role. And I just have

13:21

this urge to do something new. Yeah.

13:25

And what would that newness look like for you? I've

13:28

been thinking about this a lot. I wonder if I like the,

13:30

I don't know if it's

13:32

adrenaline. I'm having a

13:34

parallel experience where I think about

13:37

my upbringing, the military upbringing,

13:39

where we moved every two to three years. I

13:42

had to make new friends, you know, start new relationships.

13:45

And I'm wondering if there's something around that,

13:47

because I do enjoy the onboard

13:49

part of my roles, where

13:51

I get to meet

13:53

new people, where I get

13:56

to learn about the business that I'm supporting

13:58

and really dig in with leaders. I really

14:00

enjoy that and I'm not

14:02

saying that there isn't way more to learn in

14:04

the organization I'm in, but

14:07

I do feel that I've plateaued in the

14:09

current role and that's why

14:11

I'm saying I'm missing that opportunity to kind

14:13

of learn something new and grow into something

14:15

new. My inclination

14:17

or habit would be just to move to

14:19

another role in another company versus try to

14:22

build something new within the company I'm in.

14:25

So what's holding you back from doing that? Going

14:28

external. Yeah, from doing what

14:30

you have been doing, which is, it sounds

14:33

to me like what you've been doing that's worked well

14:35

for you, at least up

14:37

until now. I'm just self-reflecting back is

14:40

you get a role, you do well in

14:42

it, you learn, you grow, it's challenging, you

14:45

get to the top of the mountain, you

14:48

plant the flag, and then

14:50

you're like, okay, next

14:53

mountain. Yeah. You

14:55

know, that keeps it fresh. And

14:58

then it's next mountain, let's keep it fresh. And

15:01

the mountain is all about the learning,

15:03

the newness, the creating. The

15:06

grace. Yeah. So

15:09

if you know that, right? Yeah.

15:12

What is it that's holding you

15:14

back from continuing down that place?

15:16

Like, why are we even having this

15:18

conversation if you know that that's the

15:21

formula that's been working, that you feel

15:23

has worked for you? I think my

15:25

question is kind of circles back to the

15:27

whole first half of my career, back

15:29

half of my career. I

15:31

feel like in the first half, I was

15:33

more of a

15:36

risk taker, which is interesting being a single

15:38

parent, I took a lot of risk to

15:40

kind of move around and make sure that

15:42

I could raise my family. I

15:45

think the biggest thing that's different for me or that

15:47

feels different for me goes back

15:49

to my age. I

15:51

don't know if it's a thing or if it

15:54

matters, but I worry about ageism. I

15:57

worry, can I continue this?

16:00

They continue to a it can. I continue to be in

16:02

a role every two to three years to I. Have

16:04

the stamina and will to do that.

16:06

Easy. It's funny because every time I

16:09

take a new role at least and last

16:11

five years or so I think okay, this

16:13

is the role. I'm gonna stay at this

16:15

company until the end of my career and

16:17

then and there a couple years and my.

16:19

Ready. For my next thing. You.

16:21

Do And so. It's

16:24

trying to manage this. Success.

16:27

Formula that I see like I had. With.

16:30

The prospect of what is it means?

16:32

Aids. In my career as

16:35

a woman. With.

16:37

That same habit like will that formula still work

16:39

for me. I just

16:41

don't know. I think that's what it

16:43

is. Will that formula still work for

16:45

me? Yeah, and I think. What's.

16:49

Happened is because it has worked for

16:51

you. There is a bit of hesitation

16:53

of letting it go. You

16:56

know, That. This, I let it

16:58

go. And oh no, see you like

17:00

what the opposite of a Strasser? Complacency.

17:04

That. right? If I

17:06

let it go, will I become. Complacent,

17:09

And what does complacency look like to you? The.

17:12

One who gets overlooked.

17:15

Someone. Who. And

17:18

a South Korean company like Flit

17:20

I Men will soon become obsolete.

17:22

You. And not a values driver.

17:25

And those are just all things that I don't want

17:27

to be. Great. Because if you're

17:29

those things, In my head.

17:32

My. Hr Head. Amount of a job

17:34

throughout. Have a job because what? I'm there. To

17:36

deliver value At the end of the day. And

17:39

I know that and I want to do

17:41

that says from on my own personal kind

17:43

of ethics, point of view and my work

17:46

ethic. So I think it is a. Are

17:49

you willing to let go of the formula? I don't know

17:51

what the new formula is. What are

17:53

you willing to like on formula and and you don't have

17:55

to? That's why kept saying what's holding you back, You don't

17:58

have the end. you keep doing it But

18:00

you can keep using the formula that you've

18:02

had. You really can. I

18:05

really have no skin in the game,

18:07

which way you go. Yeah. But

18:10

what I'm hearing from you is, I don't know if

18:12

I can keep this formula up. Yeah. So,

18:15

if you feel like it's not sustainable, are

18:19

you willing to let it go and

18:21

open up to potentially

18:24

a different formula? Yes.

18:27

And I think that's the motivation for this conversation.

18:30

I don't know that I'm willing to keep up the

18:32

formula. I don't know if it'll continue to work.

18:34

I feel like I'm kind of hedging my bets. I

18:36

think it'll work. Maybe.

18:40

So, here's the thing. If you change the

18:42

formula, you can't expect the same outcome. I

18:47

am an avid, or was, an

18:49

avid runner. I've been running for over 25

18:51

years. I

18:54

got news earlier this year

18:56

that if you keep running,

18:59

this is what's going to happen. XYZ. And

19:01

you don't really want that to happen right

19:03

now. Yeah. So, I'm really,

19:05

really, you have a choice. You

19:07

can keep on running, and this is

19:09

what it'll be. But you will

19:11

be a runner, which is what

19:14

I strongly identified with. Or

19:17

you can do these things. One doctor was like, you should become

19:19

a swimmer. I was like, no, thank you. What's

19:21

next? Right? And I decided,

19:23

oh, I'm going to become what's

19:26

called a rucker. Right?

19:29

I'm going to walk with weights on my back. So now

19:31

I'm a rucker, and I'm a walker, and I'm a

19:33

hiker, and I sometimes jogger. But

19:35

I'm, for now, no longer, and probably

19:38

in perpetuity, no

19:40

longer a runner. It's

19:42

a different formula, because

19:45

the goal is I want longevity.

19:49

So, the formula you've had up until

19:51

now has been your formula to be

19:53

a striver. If

19:56

you change the formula, I can't

19:58

guarantee you that. that the

20:01

outcome will be a striver.

20:04

What I'm curious about is

20:06

how would it feel to you to no

20:10

longer be a

20:12

striver? So two things

20:14

came to mind. The first

20:16

was like I felt my

20:18

shoulders kind of relax and go, what a

20:20

relief. I

20:23

don't have to strive. The

20:25

second reaction was, well,

20:27

what the heck, what am I going to do? What

20:30

does that mean? Like I'm just going to flow around in space. And

20:33

that, so that feels like complacency. And

20:35

so, yeah. So

20:38

we don't know. We don't know if it's complacency. We don't

20:40

know what it is. Right. But we already know you don't

20:42

want it to be complacency. So we

20:44

know it's not going to be that. Right. Like I knew

20:46

I didn't want to be a swimmer. So

20:48

let's just not even include that as part

20:50

of the options. Okay. Yeah. There's

20:53

a whole bunch of other options

20:56

that we can go after. Yeah. I

20:59

think in order for you to be

21:01

able to start seeing more clearly what

21:05

this next phase looks like for you,

21:09

self candor and with

21:11

commitment, you've got to be able to

21:13

also let go of what

21:16

the picture has looked like for you up until now.

21:19

Yeah. And

21:22

it doesn't mean that that picture has been bad. Right.

21:25

Yeah. Like look

21:27

at it with gratitude

21:29

and appreciation for how

21:31

far it's brought you. And as I

21:33

said, you can continue with it. You don't

21:35

have to change course. You really don't. Yeah.

21:39

But there's something in you that's saying, I

21:42

think it's time. I think it's

21:44

time for me to change course. Yeah. Yeah.

21:48

It is. So let's

21:50

not fast forward towards what's

21:53

next without fully examining what

21:56

we're leaving behind or

21:58

what we're building on. Yeah. Sabrina

22:04

came to this coaching conversation at a point

22:07

in her career that many faced. A

22:09

time where she felt like she had accomplished a

22:11

lot, but was looking for something

22:14

more exciting, and wasn't sure

22:16

she wanted to strive in the same way

22:18

she did when she was younger. In

22:20

the early part of the conversation, it might have

22:23

felt like we were going in circles a bit,

22:25

but I kept pressing and asking questions to

22:27

get to the bottom of certain phrases she

22:29

was using, and certain assumptions she

22:32

seemed to have. It was

22:34

only after plotting a few times, a

22:36

few different ways, that some underlying concerns

22:38

started to unearth themselves. Sabrina

22:41

is concerned about ageism in the

22:43

workplace, and worried if

22:45

her blueprint for moving through her career

22:47

in the past could even continue to

22:49

apply as she looks toward the future. She

22:53

felt connected to that formula she used previously

22:55

because it had served her well, but

22:57

I thought a helpful next step for her would be

22:59

to explore what a different formula might look

23:01

like. We'll dive back

23:03

in now as we explore some of her

23:06

assumptions piece by piece, and

23:08

see if we can imagine what a

23:10

different scenario or approach might look and

23:12

feel like to her. This

23:17

notion of, you mentioned

23:19

you're a little concerned about ageism.

23:22

Ageism from who? I

23:24

think perspective employers,

23:26

if I were to look outside or

23:28

even potentially internally, if

23:30

I think about, you know, do people

23:32

look at me and say, well, how

23:35

much runway does this person have? And

23:39

how have you dealt with isms in the past? I

23:42

just stomp them down and overcome them. You

23:46

strive through it.

23:50

So what's different this time? I

23:53

mean, if I'm being completely transparent, I

23:55

physically feel different. I feel

23:57

it differently than I did, you know, before. So

24:00

there's that piece to. One.

24:03

It's funny cause Eight when you said how I deal

24:05

with all the isms because they're been plenty of isn't

24:08

selective. Still my

24:10

career, but. There's. A Fisa me

24:12

that's tired of fighting the Isms. You know

24:14

you just. Can't get to a plant where. I

24:17

don't want to resign to it says yeah I'm not. There.

24:19

Yet. And. I

24:21

do still like a have enough experience. Perspective

24:24

and. Ability to

24:26

continue to. I don't know if I'm going

24:28

to strive to rip up. continue to move

24:30

through it. Easy. And the other point

24:32

is I've never faced this isn't before, right? Because

24:34

it's first time I've been the seeds. You.

24:37

You, I don't know how to navigate it because

24:39

it's noom, right? Okay, know this is really interesting.

24:41

You're a like you've never navigated at so

24:43

it's new. Yeah and what are you look

24:45

for you look for. We know what sounds

24:47

like it really just as you up or

24:49

new. Opportunities New

24:52

challenge so. When I

24:54

said maybe this is the. Mountains. Yes,

24:57

I think it's just a phase that you're in

24:59

in and of itself if you approach the as

25:01

you did. In the

25:03

past your new roles which is ooh,

25:06

it's new, there's a place for growth.

25:08

this period of discomfort that you're in

25:10

this. Tipping Point: This inflection

25:12

point. In and

25:14

of itself feels like. It's.

25:17

Giving you exactly what it is

25:19

that you always want which is

25:21

it's new. It is.

25:24

Soil. For growth. I

25:27

have to learn how to navigate it.

25:29

Yeah, the only differences? It's not wrapped

25:31

up. In a nice pretty

25:33

bow of a position. Within.

25:35

A corporation with a title and

25:37

a team and metrics. And

25:40

a performance review. And

25:42

maybe a bonus and a reward at the

25:44

end of the year? Yeah.

25:47

But. It. Has. all the components

25:49

that you said you're looking for right

25:51

it's like again going back to the

25:53

restaurant analysis view it as merely like

25:56

a man i like spicy food save

25:58

for read with a touch of I

26:00

like sweetness, I like complexity, you take me

26:02

at a nice fancy restaurant and I'm like,

26:04

oh my God, this is great, but then

26:06

you hand me a dish with the same

26:08

components, but it's in a brown paper bag

26:10

and I'm like, ugh. Well,

26:13

why? You just told me these are the things that you like.

26:16

Yes. And I like

26:18

them packaged and all the other things that we talked about.

26:22

You like them packaged and all the things. And

26:25

yeah, so I get it. Like I think

26:27

you're totally right, but the first thing that I thought

26:29

of even before you said it was like, well, gosh,

26:31

it's, you're right. It is

26:34

new. It's a challenge. It's different. It's

26:36

all the components. But

26:38

the first thing I thought of was those

26:40

are internal things that I need to work

26:42

with. And I don't, I've never been a

26:44

person that needs external recognition,

26:48

but I guess the way that I receive

26:50

that external recognition, it's packaged in my

26:53

title, my role, my

26:55

greater impact and visibility in the

26:58

organization. And

27:00

so yes, I can certainly tackle all of

27:02

those, but who

27:04

will know? But

27:07

let me ask you a question then, right? Like

27:09

let's fast forward to 15 years from

27:11

now, 20 years from now, because you said

27:13

you see like maybe another 15, 20

27:15

years in your career. Yeah. So

27:18

15, 20 years, career

27:20

ends. And so then

27:22

where do you get your motivation from? That's

27:25

a scary moment. I don't know yet. I think

27:27

about that too. It's a great question.

27:30

I don't know. Okay. I

27:32

tease when I say this, you know, I tell people I

27:34

was like, I'll probably work until the day I die. But

27:37

at the same time, I know that I don't physically

27:39

want to work until the day I die. I

27:42

would love to retire and literally sail off into

27:44

the sunset. Let me know

27:46

when you're leaving. I'll

27:48

be right there with you. But

27:51

I might not be content on the sailboat. You

27:53

might not be content because you're not, you know why?

27:56

Because the things that you said make

27:58

you content actually. the

28:01

new challenges, growth, feeling

28:03

like you're learning, you

28:06

are basically saying, they only

28:09

make me content under certain

28:11

conditions. And

28:13

those conditions, Sabrina,

28:16

are not conditions that are going

28:18

to stay around forever. It's

28:21

like saying, and I'm just going back because you have

28:23

kids, it's like saying, oh my gosh,

28:26

when I hear my kids laugh, it

28:28

brings me such joy. But

28:31

you know what? I only liked it when they were like under

28:33

six years old. Now that

28:35

they're 20, I don't want to, it doesn't count

28:37

anymore. I don't know, still the

28:39

laugh, right? So what is it? So

28:43

the packaging is the external piece,

28:45

is the external piece. And that

28:47

changes. We don't have control over

28:49

that. We do not.

28:54

You and I are both aging as we speak.

28:56

There is no control. I mean, somebody's trying to

28:58

figure out how to stop that process from happening,

29:00

but it ain't us. And

29:02

it is not happening in this coaching session. But

29:06

what remains the same is

29:08

whatever it is that brings

29:10

you a sense of meaning, and

29:13

what brings me a sense of meaning. The

29:15

container of it though might change

29:17

over time. So I

29:19

think the real question is how do you

29:21

maintain what you

29:24

have identified as important

29:27

to you, as valuable to you,

29:29

as what provides you a sense of purpose,

29:31

which is what motivation is, right?

29:34

You find meaning in what you're doing, you find a

29:36

sense of purpose. How do you maintain

29:38

that even

29:41

when things around you

29:44

might be changing? And in

29:46

your case, what's changing is

29:49

your physical energy, your

29:51

physical stamina. So

29:53

what do you do? Do you keep pushing and

29:56

say, damn it, I don't care that? You know, that's

29:58

like me saying, I don't care that my body is changing. The telling

30:00

me not to run anymore. Me to keep running. Yeah,

30:02

sure you can do that, but we all know where

30:04

that leads to. Or

30:06

do I say know what I love about it

30:08

is the sense as. Energy that I

30:11

get in the communities that a a

30:13

half from it and thus sense of

30:15

accomplishment. Okay, so I want a sense

30:17

of accomplishment. I want community and I

30:19

want energy. I wanted to orphans. In

30:21

what other ways can I get that? besides

30:23

running. Or.

30:26

Do I say you know what? That

30:28

was good but now I value something

30:30

different. But sticking to it

30:32

has to look a certain

30:34

way in order for me

30:36

to be content. Is.

30:40

Telling yourself. A

30:42

magical story which has worked for

30:45

you for your long time. Yeah,

30:47

the mass ain't massing anymore because

30:49

there's something in that story that

30:51

is not. Following. The

30:54

storyline? Yeah, and that's your physical

30:56

energy. In. Order for that

30:58

to work. The physical energy has to be

31:00

there based on your experience. Yeah.

31:04

I think that one of the

31:06

analogy use that resonated with the

31:08

container. Peace Be him. So I've

31:11

spent my whole career like the

31:13

container been like the role. The

31:16

compensation, the title the right as I

31:18

continue to move to my career. And

31:20

so when you have broken apart and said

31:23

wall the fertile I'm in right now. That's.

31:25

Newness that talents as far in

31:27

escrow. That's difference, but it doesn't

31:29

have the container of like that

31:31

professional container. And

31:34

some does, I'm just processing. Whether or not.

31:36

Or how to sis my perspective on

31:39

the container. That. All

31:41

that's and stop looking for the

31:43

current container that you're in to

31:45

provide you with your full sources

31:47

contact with him. Because. Right

31:49

now it's not giving it's you. Yeah. That

31:52

doesn't mean you can't be in it, but you've gotta find

31:55

another purpose for it. Yeah. You.

31:57

Told me in the past hey what enabled

31:59

me. to really do what I did is

32:01

my purpose was I took care of my

32:03

family. I

32:06

was the provider. Okay, so now

32:08

that's gone, right? You don't have to

32:10

do that as much. Maybe we have to provide in a different

32:12

way. So then it becomes, oh,

32:14

but I still need something meaningful, something

32:16

that I'm learning that's new, that's growth.

32:18

Okay, but it's not happening in my

32:22

current organization. Okay, so you have a choice. You

32:25

can either go look for it in another way,

32:27

but then you said, I'm just playing back everything you said,

32:29

you said, I don't know if I

32:31

really want to, like, I don't know if I want to

32:35

keep climbing the corporate

32:37

mountain. Yeah, because I don't know if

32:39

I have the stamina, but I still want something that's

32:41

new and that helps me learn. And

32:43

so all I'm suggesting is, okay, then option number

32:45

three is you get

32:48

the newness and the learning opportunities and

32:50

the growth, but it doesn't happen within

32:52

the container of being within

32:55

the corporate job. That doesn't mean you leave

32:57

the corporate job. Yeah, you

32:59

don't have to. All it means is

33:01

that might not be what gives you

33:04

the things that you're looking for. Yeah,

33:08

no, that's, it's good because you also

33:10

alluded to another point. The

33:12

first part of my career, the motivation was

33:15

raising my kids and providing for them. And

33:18

now there's a shift and I always

33:20

say I'm a kind of a halfway empty nester

33:23

because I feel like one, but not fully, but

33:25

I am essentially one. And so now the motivation

33:27

is different. The

33:29

why for working and striving in

33:32

my roles feels different, but

33:34

I'm just so used to how

33:36

I've done it for so long that

33:38

it's like tapping into a different motivation

33:41

source. It's tapping into

33:43

a different motivation source. And I don't

33:45

really know what that is exactly right

33:47

now. And I think you have to figure

33:49

out what that is before you figure out what

33:51

the container looks like. Yeah.

33:55

And so when you describe

33:57

like motivation,

34:00

Because right now you're saying, oh, if

34:02

I'm motivated, it means I

34:06

strive, right? I

34:09

climb the next mountain, that's what it looks like.

34:11

Or I get motivated to climb the next

34:13

mountain. What else could you

34:16

be motivated to fill in

34:18

the blank, do you think, at

34:20

this point in your career? The

34:22

word that comes to mind is impact.

34:27

That could be in my professional container, but it

34:29

could be in other containers as well. There's

34:32

a... I'm

34:35

questioning myself. I'm not sure if it's

34:37

about seeing, am I shifting

34:39

from growing for

34:42

my own personal use so I can grow

34:44

my career or growing as I teach others

34:46

to grow and learn in their own careers?

34:49

I don't know how motivated I would be. I love

34:51

doing that as a mother, raising my kids that way.

34:54

I'm in a helping profession right now as

34:56

a leader in HR, and so I do

34:59

that professionally. I don't

35:01

know, maybe that's my innate

35:03

motivation, but I also... I've

35:06

always been in kind of a helping

35:08

role professionally and personally. There's

35:10

a piece of me that's tired too from that.

35:13

It can be de-energizing at the end of

35:15

the day to have to hold space for

35:17

so many people all the time. I'm

35:21

just pausing too. This goes back to

35:23

when I think about the second half.

35:25

Do I have the stamina and the

35:27

will to continue to be

35:29

in this very intense kind

35:31

of helping profession really? HR

35:34

is not an easy space to be in. I

35:37

mean, I think there's a question around, because you also

35:39

used the word like teaching.

35:43

The shift that I propose

35:45

to you is to reframe

35:47

it as thinking as, what

35:50

would it look like for me to

35:54

help others while

35:56

also helping myself? Because

36:00

you framed what you've done

36:02

up until now as a helping profession

36:04

in helping others fully.

36:07

And that that's tiring. And

36:10

I don't know what that profession is. I don't

36:12

know what container it's in, but I think it's

36:14

like, where can you find your

36:16

motivation? Would it feel more

36:18

motivational now to say, I want

36:20

to continue helping others, but I have to do

36:22

it in a way where it's also helping me? Yeah.

36:26

I'm just trying to picture what that is. I know we're

36:28

not going to... We're not there yet,

36:30

Sabrina. I know. We're

36:34

just now just envisioning

36:36

the possibilities of what the

36:38

parameters might be, right? Before

36:40

we get concrete and start

36:42

picking out the paint colors. You've

36:45

got to have some guiding

36:48

principles. The guiding principles that are

36:50

going to motivate you. What is the new sense

36:52

of motivation, as you said? So

36:54

I think that that's part of the work is like,

36:57

is this being the

36:59

provider for my family, that's not

37:01

it anymore. And

37:04

helping others in a way where it's fully

37:06

giving out, but not really

37:08

receiving anything back beyond compensation

37:11

title, all that stuff. That's

37:14

not it anymore. It doesn't mean it's bad.

37:16

It's just it's not it. It's not what

37:18

is moving you, which is not giving you

37:20

a sense of purpose and meaning. Okay, so

37:23

we cross that off the list. I

37:25

think you need to go through just an exercise to

37:27

say, okay, what else could it be? That

37:31

would, oh, by the way, still gives me

37:33

a sense of learning and growth. And

37:36

my sense is anything that you do is that's new is

37:39

going to give you that sense. Have

37:42

you ever read the book From Strength to

37:44

Strength by Arthur Brooks? I've

37:47

heard of it. I haven't read it yet. Strongly recommend

37:49

you reading it. Okay. But in the book,

37:51

just so you know, you are not alone.

37:58

In the book, Miss The Bricks.

38:00

He talks about the fact that we

38:02

go through two phases and are career.

38:06

Oh by the way of

38:08

the first. Phase happens like

38:10

in early twenties. thirties.

38:13

Forty? Yes, maybe? And

38:16

a second phase is like usually hits

38:18

in the forties and then in their

38:20

sixties. Man. He

38:23

and the first phase. And

38:25

I don't have. He made the supports he leopard some

38:27

research. So to don't buy. Fully.

38:29

Fully quote me on this list or the

38:31

first phase is built on what we call

38:33

fluid intelligence. And it's

38:35

one. We have this like. Energy

38:38

to focus and work and

38:40

the live for and dry

38:43

me know. What?

38:45

We don't. Tend to understand,

38:47

but the data bear that out

38:49

is that that fluid intelligence is

38:52

not in perpetuity. By

38:55

the time we hit. Different

38:57

age for different people by but there

39:00

is a point in time for hims

39:02

where it starts being on the decline.

39:05

Yeah. But. Instead

39:07

of accepting that and

39:09

saying. How

39:11

do I now recreate. My.

39:15

Work, my career Or were how I

39:17

operate? how I walk in the world

39:19

in a way that aligns with where

39:21

I am in that curve. Yeah, we

39:23

resisted. And then feel

39:25

potentially. Burn down or went wrong. But.

39:29

What also happens is why all

39:32

this fluid intelligence happens. There's a

39:34

different form of intelligence that also

39:36

tix in. In the

39:38

second half. And this is

39:40

what he calls crystallized intelligence. And

39:43

crystallized intelligence is all of the

39:45

intelligence and the knowledge and the

39:47

he calls it was some. Reason.

39:50

That use has built up. Over

39:53

the span of time and the real

39:55

key. Is rather than

39:57

resisting that the fluid and thompson.

40:00

on the decline and trying to like force fit

40:02

it. The key is

40:04

actually figuring out how do you

40:06

leverage this crystallized intelligence that you've

40:08

built as

40:11

your career work or

40:14

just way of being in the second half. Yeah.

40:17

So when I share that with you,

40:19

and again, you should read the

40:21

book because I've probably blasphemized what

40:24

Mr. Brooks has to say. But

40:26

when I say that with you, how does it land with

40:28

you? It makes a

40:31

lot of sense because it's funny

40:34

that used words wisdom because that was one of the first

40:36

things I think about is I have

40:39

so much to learn, but

40:42

I have so many experiences

40:44

and I'm able to connect so many different

40:47

dots of that experience, like there's layers to

40:49

it that there is

40:51

a sense of wisdom that's associated with it that

40:53

I would never have had in my 20s

40:56

and 30s. Because I can pick

40:58

up books that I read 20 or 30 years ago and I

41:01

read them today and I'm like,

41:03

you have all the pieces to have all that

41:06

content make sense. And

41:08

I think, gosh, am

41:10

I destined for a career as a professor? Is

41:13

that my fault? But

41:15

I think what's happening though, Sabrina, is

41:17

you're sort of rushing to try to

41:19

figure out like, what's the title associated

41:21

with that? That's the container piece,

41:23

right? I'm used to one container for all this.

41:25

Yeah. And I wish I could tell

41:27

you, hey, by the time we get to the end of this

41:30

coaching session, we're going to name what that

41:32

container is. And

41:34

I would be irresponsible as a coach to

41:36

tell you that's what's going to happen in the

41:39

next 30 minutes, right? Yeah. But

41:41

what I can tell you is I think

41:44

you sort of cracked open that you're in

41:46

this new phase. You're

41:49

understanding that in order to fully immerse

41:51

into this phase, which by the way,

41:53

you're not alone in, okay?

41:56

Yeah. In order

41:58

to fully immerse into this phase, there's somewhat The

42:00

letting go of the previous space. Marine.

42:02

A bad way now because it was bad. but it's just

42:05

not where you are. Now. And

42:07

now figuring out okay, all this with

42:09

them. As he said this experience, this

42:12

knowledge. What? Is

42:14

it number one? Hand.

42:16

How can I. Use.

42:19

It. In a way. That

42:21

isn't. That go brings in.

42:24

A sense of now. Accomplishment

42:26

and newness. And or by the

42:29

way, last thing. And then

42:31

what container doesn't need to look? Do I

42:33

want to get paid for it though? I

42:35

won the title with it. Do I wanna be

42:37

in a corporate environment? Do I not want

42:39

to be in a corporate environment? Yeah, Those

42:41

are the finishing touches. To.

42:43

Some was like you've gotta stop picking out

42:45

the pillows and the candle. This

42:48

is a candles and the lighting

42:51

for the houses for. Before.

42:53

You've actually even come up with the

42:55

architectural plans for the house. Play.

42:59

With. Her to that that says just

43:01

gonna distracted Yeah so. This.

43:04

No sin. Of crystallized

43:07

intelligence of. For.

43:10

Being in this place where you yourself

43:12

are recognizing I do have this knowledge.

43:14

I do have. This.

43:16

Experience. I'm. Tired

43:19

of. Expanding

43:21

the type of energy that I have expanded,

43:24

I'd still willing to expend energy, but not

43:26

the way I did before. Okay,

43:29

So. How do you want to use it?

43:32

Where. Do you want to use it? What?

43:35

Kind of energy. Do on expand on what do you

43:37

want your life to look like? Potentially

43:40

a pretty exciting place to be because I

43:42

think this is a time when you said

43:44

hey, I've been helping other people. I think

43:46

part of the helping you as maybe it's

43:48

one of the first times where you've been

43:50

able to say oh my gosh like I

43:52

get to choose what my life. Can.

43:54

Look like right now. I think

43:57

you're right because I do think about

43:59

that. The decisions I can make

44:01

decisions on where I live, for

44:03

example, right, are

44:05

going to be different than I would have

44:08

made 10 years ago, 15 years

44:10

ago, because it would have been tied

44:12

to my children and where they went to school and, you

44:14

know, those types of priorities. Yeah,

44:17

so it is different. It

44:19

is different. Yeah. But

44:21

I sense a non-excitement

44:24

about the difference. Yeah,

44:27

it feels, it doesn't feel as

44:29

exciting. And I'm

44:31

not 100% sure why, except

44:33

that it's going to be different, which

44:36

should excite me. But, yeah,

44:38

it just feels like, okay.

44:42

You know? I think it's coming back to me when

44:44

you said, you know, is this it? I

44:46

guess it doesn't feel like big

44:49

enough. I

44:51

think that's why I immediately go to the solution of,

44:53

well, what is it, right? But

44:56

it just feels like more of the same. So

44:58

it kind of feels like complacency a little bit

45:00

to me still. Let's

45:06

pause here, because even within coaching sessions

45:08

where we make a lot of progress,

45:10

it's easy to go backwards a bit,

45:13

to look back to some of the previous

45:15

worries or focus on the same challenges again.

45:18

This is common and very natural as we

45:21

start to coach towards a new way of

45:23

approaching a problem that we go

45:25

back to the same concerns. It's

45:28

not always a linear progression. And

45:30

though we've opened the aperture a bit

45:32

on possibilities, there's still a long

45:34

way to go. Change is

45:37

hard. It can be frustrating. And

45:40

it takes being iterative. Since

45:42

this is natural, I wanted to dig in

45:44

more to these concerns that Sabrina had

45:46

that were resurfacing, because

45:48

returning to the Y might just

45:51

help us take another step forward. Here's

45:56

the thing, right? Like, I think you

45:58

started off this conversation even better. saying,

46:00

you know, nothing ever really feels good

46:02

enough. And

46:04

I'm not, you know, judging that in any way.

46:07

But if your mindset is that nothing is ever

46:09

good enough, nothing is ever big enough, then

46:11

guess what? Like, it's no surprise that this

46:13

doesn't feel big enough. Yeah. Or good

46:15

enough. You know what I mean? You

46:17

know, if I always think

46:20

string beans are nasty. Yeah.

46:23

Yeah. Doesn't matter what you do with them. I'm

46:25

gonna just tell me it's a string bean. I'm

46:27

gonna say it's nasty. I don't think

46:29

string beans are nasty, but I can think of a different example.

46:31

Yeah. Right? So

46:34

it's your perspective. And I

46:36

think you're also at a place of choosing. Is

46:39

that the perspective that you want to continue to

46:41

carry? Because it is not going to bring you

46:43

the sense of contentment that I also think you're

46:45

seeking. You can't have it both

46:47

ways. Yeah, you can't think nothing is

46:49

good enough. And yet I want

46:52

to feel content and satisfied.

46:55

And that's a newness that I need to tackle. Like, that's

46:57

a challenge in and of itself. And I

46:59

feel like I have been doing it progressively year

47:01

over year, trying to be more

47:04

content with as is versus not

47:06

good enough. Right? Yeah,

47:09

but I think it's something I just need to kind

47:11

of settle in. And it's a mindset shift, obviously. And

47:14

this notion of like, if you're feeling like,

47:17

hey, like this might feel a little too

47:19

restrictive for me, like not

47:22

a big enough impact, although we haven't even

47:24

really defined the impact. So I don't, you

47:26

know, I think you're assuming that that's what

47:28

it might be. Yeah. Then maybe

47:32

where you were is good enough. But

47:35

you're not going to know unless you explore. Yeah,

47:38

I think there's one last thing that I kind of think

47:40

about. And maybe I used

47:42

to be a runner too. So it's funny that you use

47:44

analogy and I can no longer run because it just did

47:46

a havoc on my knees. So I'm a walker. Although you

47:48

gave me an idea. It's like I'm gonna put weights on my

47:50

legs. On

47:53

your back, on your back, on my back. What

47:56

I thought about is what we've

47:59

prescribed so far. If I

48:01

don't like watching people pass me by.

48:04

The I know that I could. Pass

48:06

them. There's a little bit of competitive edge and me

48:08

a little. Said that I need to.

48:11

Navigate past two. And

48:14

I don't want to call it storm. Oh, but maybe it is. A. Little

48:16

bit of that. But. I.

48:18

Don't want to watch people passing. Me by. When I

48:20

know it's I guess I could have climbed that mountain. Sure

48:23

you you could have with you need to.

48:26

Know. Not all of them. Do.

48:29

You want to? Some. Of them.

48:32

Okay, So climb the ones that you want to

48:34

climb. Near. Not. Every

48:36

mountain needs to be fined. Yeah.

48:40

I think the way you've been operating

48:42

as up there's a mountain. I'm in

48:44

a climate. Yeah, success right? Because it's

48:46

a mountain. Of. The

48:49

mountain. It's high. It's a challenge and if I

48:52

get up there. I one yeah

48:54

right here. And

48:56

now you're saying but I'm tired. Yeah,

48:58

okay, so then what? Does winning

49:00

look like free right now. Does

49:02

it mean climbing every mountain. And. Doesn't

49:05

mean climbing the highest mountain. Near.

49:08

His. It'll be a mindset cysts and

49:10

I think just as I think about

49:12

it from a professional. Branding.

49:15

Prospective to it'll be a brand

49:17

cyst. It'll be

49:19

different for people to see me. Not

49:21

claiming they pounds. So.

49:25

Yeah, noticeably different. So.

49:29

I think part of what I'm

49:31

hearing also is a concern. You

49:33

know, going back to. This word

49:35

complacency that you talked about

49:37

right? Oh my gosh. like

49:39

if I don't climb mountains

49:41

and gonna be the person

49:43

to slight chill and on

49:45

the side not doing anything

49:47

Now being a slacker. Yeah.

49:53

Listen, I wanna be a slacker,

49:55

didn't. Lead us other stuff. I

49:57

mean, sometimes I feel, sometimes. But

50:01

again, I go back to the two aren't me. I

50:03

don't think you're seeing the middle ground. Yeah,

50:06

you're probably right. Which

50:08

is you're at a

50:10

place where you can define what it

50:12

means to win. What

50:14

it means to, you know, and I'm using the

50:16

word win because you said you're competitive. If

50:20

it is to continue doing what

50:22

you're doing, then do it. But I'm

50:24

hearing you say that's not it.

50:26

Yeah. And so maybe you're

50:28

at the moment right now, actually. You

50:31

know, I always think somebody told me this a long time ago,

50:33

and I think they were right. I resisted

50:35

it when they said it. They said, look, you know what it

50:37

means when you're not ready to make a decision?

50:41

And I was like, no, what does it mean? And

50:43

they said, all it means is you're not ready to make

50:45

a decision. You're just not

50:47

ready to do anything right now. And

50:50

it's probably because you haven't spent enough time, not

50:53

in a negative sense, but like grieving what it

50:55

is that you may be letting go. Yeah.

50:58

And getting excited about what's

51:01

coming. But if you're looking at

51:03

what's coming with this like, dread,

51:06

it may not be time. Yeah. Nobody's

51:08

forcing you to do anything right now. No,

51:11

no one's forcing me. It

51:13

goes back to my age. I

51:15

do feel, I don't know why I'm so stuck

51:17

on it, but I do feel like there's a

51:19

clock on it in some ways. I

51:22

don't want to say I'm rushing to figure out what's

51:24

next. Like I said, it took a year, but that

51:26

year was like a long year of

51:29

me. And now I'm just kind of coming out of it.

51:31

And I'm like, I can't just sit around and wait

51:34

for this epiphany to come. And

51:37

is there anything intentional that I can do? But

51:40

what we're doing right here is very intentional. Yes,

51:43

I agreed. Agreed. Okay.

51:46

Yeah. I would

51:49

encourage you to not

51:53

think that pausing and

51:55

being reflective and thinking

51:59

through this. And at

52:01

times not doing anything about it.

52:03

Just letting it marinate

52:06

till you know what

52:09

to do immediately next. That that's not

52:11

part of doing the work. That

52:13

is part of doing the work. Okay.

52:16

Around this. Yeah. This is why

52:19

if I had a huge

52:21

ego about me being a coach and I was like, oh

52:24

my gosh, I need to perform and I need to like

52:26

give a result. Right now we would be trying to come

52:28

up with a list of here are the 10 different roles

52:30

you could take on next. Yeah. But

52:33

I don't know if they would answer your question. No.

52:37

I'm kind of smiling because I'm thinking about when

52:40

I did run. And

52:42

when I was training for all these

52:44

half marathons that I did that, you

52:47

know, as part of the training they tell you, you probably

52:49

know this, that you need to take your rest days. So

52:52

you can probably imagine how I approached that, the high

52:54

achiever that I am. Do

52:56

you think I took rest days? No.

52:59

No. And so as a result, look

53:01

what happened. I can't run

53:03

anymore. I ran my knees till basically

53:06

you can't, I can't run. Like I heard it's to

53:08

go over three miles. And

53:11

so I kind of, if you kind of layer that on to this, what

53:13

I'm managing now kind of professionally, I think

53:16

that if I keep running in

53:19

the professional sense, they'll come

53:21

a point too early. Like I wasn't

53:23

ready to retire from running when it happened. I

53:26

think that if I layer that on to my professional world, I could

53:31

hurt my professional knees to the point where

53:33

I'll be really walking and doing something slow.

53:35

So I think there is some

53:37

value in what you say in terms of letting it

53:39

marinate to take some rest

53:41

days, multiple, right, to

53:44

figure out what's next. Yeah.

53:47

And I don't think you're

53:50

as far away

53:52

from figuring out what's next

53:54

as what you think. Yeah. I

53:56

think you have A, determine that

53:59

some- something different. That's

54:01

a huge step. Accepting that, yeah,

54:04

I don't want to be, I don't want to keep

54:06

going at this pace that I've been

54:08

going in. Okay, so now you

54:10

know that. What's the pace?

54:13

B, you've identified that

54:16

you want to be able to leverage

54:19

all this knowledge and experience and

54:21

wisdom that you've accumulated. Okay.

54:26

C, that learning

54:29

and growth

54:31

and newness are

54:34

still things that you

54:36

value. Okay, so those

54:38

are three areas already.

54:40

D, we don't know

54:43

what the container looks like, but

54:46

there's a possibility. I think this is actually the

54:48

part you have to dig into. How

54:51

tied am I to the current type

54:53

of container that I'm in? Meaning, does

54:56

it have to be in this corporate structure,

55:00

reputable company, with a

55:03

brand, or am

55:05

I open to different containers without identifying

55:07

what the container is? That's

55:09

like what you said. Is it that

55:11

I need to stay living in this

55:13

geographic region, or am

55:16

I open to other geographic regions?

55:18

Without yet knowing what those other

55:20

geographic regions might be. That's

55:23

a choice, and just be honest with yourself.

55:25

There's nothing wrong with saying, nope, I need to

55:27

stay right here. Nope, I need to stay in this

55:29

type of container, no matter what. Okay, so that becomes

55:32

a non-negotiable for

55:35

whatever's next, but understanding that with

55:38

every choice that you make, there's

55:41

always going to be a trade-off. So

55:44

maybe it could be that you could reframe

55:46

if you said, hey, I want to keep

55:48

it in this corporate container. Okay, but I'm

55:50

going to pivot in terms of what I

55:52

do, how I do it, etc. Maybe it

55:54

would mean that you're no longer on the

55:56

high potential track

55:59

or whatever. the track, the fast track.

56:01

Okay, that's the trail. Are

56:04

you okay with that? At the end of the day, it's

56:06

as long as you can live with it. So

56:11

tell me where you're landing right now. I'm

56:14

landing on, I feel a little bit more excited

56:16

than I did about 10 minutes ago when

56:18

I felt kind of flat. But

56:21

the idea of exploring this different container

56:24

piece is, I

56:26

was reflecting as you were talking, because I've

56:28

had a couple of opportunities come across where

56:31

the container would be very

56:33

different than the one I'm in. And I've

56:36

kind of continued to explore

56:38

it a bit, but kind

56:40

of on the edges kind of going, I don't really

56:42

know if that's the right container because I really like

56:45

this flashy container that I'm in. But

56:49

it makes me think about, well, what is it about

56:51

the flashy container I really like? And when you

56:53

talk about trade-offs, what

56:55

are the trade-offs that I'm willing to take? And

56:58

also knowing that whatever

57:00

decision I make, I know this too, and I'm going

57:03

to keep this one. Whatever

57:05

decision I make, it's not permanent. I

57:08

know that from my history, that

57:11

nothing lasts forever. And

57:14

whether it's voluntary or involuntary, it doesn't have to

57:16

be permanent, whatever the next container is. I could

57:18

choose to go back to the flashy container if

57:20

I wanted to. It'll still

57:23

be there. Okay, so maybe that

57:25

gives you a sense of security to

57:28

be able to go and explore. Yeah. And

57:31

I think when you look at what

57:33

is it that you like about the

57:35

flashy container, right? I would encourage you

57:37

to also look at to what extent

57:39

are you holding onto it tightly? Yeah. What

57:41

does it provide for you? And

57:43

do you need that or do you not need

57:45

that? Okay. Yeah, it's a good question. So

57:48

I think where we are is that

57:50

you have some questions that you need to sit

57:53

with. Yeah. To continue to

57:55

work through. Before you can get to,

57:58

here's going to be... what

58:00

my exact next step is. I mean, goodness

58:03

gracious, like you've had 20, I think 20,

58:07

25 years in your career. Yeah. Don't

58:09

diminish how much to invest in

58:12

figuring out what the next 20 years look like.

58:14

Yeah. Okay.

58:17

Yeah. But

58:20

I have all this wisdom I should know. It's a

58:22

process. Okay.

58:24

Yeah. You're going through the process. I

58:27

think to keep the momentum going, I

58:29

would ask you to

58:31

commit to spending some time, even

58:34

if it's 15 minutes a day or an hour

58:37

a week, where

58:39

you are, I know it might be hard for you,

58:41

I don't know, but sit somewhere

58:44

and maybe write out,

58:46

keep a journal of just what your thoughts are.

58:50

And you have the questions. Yeah.

58:52

So let's just to

58:55

ensure that there's some follow through. I'm going

58:57

to give you a little bit of homework. Okay. Okay. The

59:00

assignment is to journal

59:03

with some questions. I just want you to

59:05

stay in questioning mode right now, rather than

59:07

like the answer. Okay. The

59:10

answer. We landed here

59:12

with a bunch of questions that you could start

59:14

with. Yeah. So I'd like you to pick what

59:16

is the first question that

59:19

you want to start with next

59:21

week that you're going to sit

59:23

for 15, 20, 30 minutes and

59:27

just without judgment, write

59:29

out what you think. What's the question

59:31

you want to start with? I think the

59:33

question I want to start with was the one

59:35

that I wrote down was how

59:37

tight I am to my current container. I want

59:40

to explore my connection to this container I'm

59:42

in or I have. So start

59:45

with that and then say, right with you. Yeah. Okay.

59:49

I think you are on the path. Thank

59:52

you. Thank you. I appreciate

59:54

it. Absolutely. As

1:00:04

much as people come to coaching to sort

1:00:06

through career challenges, we also know

1:00:08

that we can't separate work from the rest of our

1:00:10

lives. The two are intermingled,

1:00:13

and Sabrina's challenge was partly that, figuring

1:00:16

out how to adapt her working style

1:00:18

and approach as her life started to feel

1:00:21

different. At any

1:00:23

career transition phase, it's important to go

1:00:25

back to your goals and motivations, to

1:00:27

make sure you have a basic understanding of what

1:00:30

you want and what is driving you. Once

1:00:32

you have that foundation, you can see how

1:00:34

the ways you're viewing things might be limiting,

1:00:37

or how you can change your perspective. In

1:00:40

Sabrina's case, she felt less

1:00:42

content at work than she had hoped, but

1:00:45

in the background, she felt her age

1:00:47

might be impacting her energy level, and

1:00:50

felt her motivation change as her kids

1:00:52

were no longer as dependent on her. As

1:00:55

I walked Sabrina through articulating what

1:00:57

really mattered to her, we were able

1:01:00

to get a fuller picture of everything that was

1:01:02

going on in her life and how that was

1:01:04

impacting her work. Then

1:01:06

we could take a step back and really start

1:01:08

working through how her work could change, or

1:01:11

where she could look for motivation and energy

1:01:13

and endeavors outside of work. What's

1:01:16

nice is, she doesn't really have to

1:01:18

make a decision right now. She can

1:01:20

let things marinate a bit more. But

1:01:23

it was really important for her to realize, don't

1:01:25

focus solely on that external container.

1:01:28

But instead, focus on

1:01:30

the substance of what's inside, and

1:01:33

make that what you're really looking

1:01:35

for. That's

1:01:42

it for this episode of Coaching Real

1:01:44

Leaders. Next time... You

1:01:46

know, I have made a transition that very few people

1:01:49

are able to pull off, coming

1:01:51

from, you know, let's say the working class of the

1:01:53

industry, into the office job.

1:01:56

And that's where I'm kind of struggling

1:01:58

with getting to the next level. I

1:02:01

have a really important ask of you. If

1:02:04

you love the coaching conversations on Coaching Reel

1:02:06

Leaders, it would mean the world to me

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or wherever you listen to subscribe to the

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1:02:20

If you want more of Coaching Reel Leaders,

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You can also connect with me on

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1:02:37

to my producer Mary Dew,

1:02:39

sound editor, McClinco, music composer

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Brian Campbell, my assistant Emily

1:02:44

Sofa, and the entire team at HPR.

1:02:47

Much gratitude to the leaders who join me

1:02:49

in these coaching conversations and to you, our

1:02:51

listeners, who share in their journeys. If

1:02:54

you're dealing with a leadership challenge, I'd love to hear

1:02:56

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1:02:58

show. Apply at

1:03:01

coachingreelleaders.com. From HPR

1:03:03

Podcast Network, I'm Muriel Wilkins.

1:03:06

Until next time, be well.