0:07

I'm Ariel Wilkins in This Is Coaching Real

0:09

Leaders part of the H B or a

0:12

podcast network. I'm a long time executive coach

0:14

who works with highly successful leaders who hit

0:16

a bump. In the road. My job

0:18

is to help them get over that month

0:21

by clarifying their goals and figuring out a

0:23

way to reach them so that hopefully they

0:25

can lead with a little more at ease.

0:27

I typically work with clients over the course

0:29

of several months, but on this show we

0:31

have a one time coaching meeting focusing on

0:33

a specific leadership challenge they're facing. Today's

0:42

guest is someone will call John to

0:44

protect his confidentiality. He works in the

0:46

marine industry as a boat captain and

0:49

it's something he's been passionate about for

0:51

as long as he can remember. Started

0:53

in both. she knows a years old. I

0:55

have my own boat before I well before

0:58

I even knew how to drive a car.

1:00

Managers kind of happened. It was funny because

1:02

my father was very corporate and I always

1:04

said that I would never want an office

1:06

job. You know it, I don't work on

1:08

beauchemin, have a good living. Some of it

1:10

was rebellion. I guess the first saying I'm

1:12

going to go into this industry make it

1:14

happen. but at this point so I know

1:16

I love it. I mean it's really hard

1:18

to have a bad day when your job

1:20

is running around in the water all day.

1:23

You know, I like it. did. It's different

1:25

every day. I like it. Then it's a

1:27

challenge. Everyday doesn't matter how capable you are,

1:29

those elements of it that are completely out

1:31

of anyone's control. Mother nature for one, even

1:33

if it's the same, every day's different. John

1:36

has moved through different parts of the

1:39

industry and has proven himself as a

1:41

leader on the water. But as as

1:43

professional and personal aspirations have shifted, he's

1:45

moved closer to the corporate side. And

1:48

wants to make that transition more

1:50

permanent. I have been

1:52

kind of bridging the gap between

1:54

captain and then working in the

1:56

operations area of the company you

1:58

know in the court. side of

2:00

things. And what I'm trying

2:02

to get at is moving fully into

2:05

the operations. You know, I have made

2:07

a transition that very few people are able to pull

2:09

off, coming from, you know, let's

2:11

say the working class of the industry into

2:13

the office job, and that's where

2:15

I'm kind of struggling with getting to the next

2:17

level. John has been successful

2:20

in making this transition so far, in

2:22

part because of his ability to jump

2:24

in and help fix problems. He's

2:27

become someone a lot of the management team

2:29

calls on in a pinch. But

2:31

he's struggling to make sure that

2:33

translates into long-term full-time value and

2:36

the permanent role. I started the

2:38

conversation by asking him why he thinks he

2:40

has become someone that people can call on.

2:48

Part of it is my personal want

2:50

for more. You know, sometimes

2:52

I just inject myself where I want

2:54

to go and just say, hey, I

2:56

want to be here so I'm gonna tag along

2:58

and learn and do it to

3:00

the best of my ability until you think that I'm worthy

3:02

of being brought along. You know, and that's so I did

3:04

some of that was just kind of inserting

3:06

myself wherever I could. There's a split reputation

3:08

which is always a guy that gets it

3:11

done, the guy that you can count on.

3:13

I think the negative part of

3:15

that which is affecting me now

3:18

with this transition is that I

3:20

always get it done. There may be some

3:22

friction there in terms of I'm plowing ahead

3:24

because I want to get somewhere and

3:26

for me to get where I want to go, the task at

3:29

hand needs to be done. And

3:31

I think that that comes from my early

3:34

experience in the industry, in the career

3:36

where, you know, it's tough

3:38

being a captain because no one else is

3:40

watching you manage. You're on the boat, your

3:42

job is the boss, everyone understands that there

3:44

is no negotiation. You know, you

3:47

can't go about it like I'm the king, that's not

3:49

what I'm saying, but at the same time there's a

3:51

very clear, this is what the expectations are and this is

3:53

what's going to happen. So

3:55

I bring some of that with me while trying to

3:58

get into the new space and I think... I think

4:00

it's ruffled a few feathers in the completely

4:02

corporate world. Okay. All right.

4:05

So tell me a little bit about

4:07

this. You're now wanting more

4:09

on the corporate side, right? Yes. So

4:12

what is the more? Like, what is it that you're

4:14

trying to accomplish? If 12 months from

4:16

now, you know, we

4:19

talked and you said, mission accomplished,

4:22

what would that be? What is it that would

4:24

be different? That would be

4:26

the, I guess, creation of a

4:29

position for me and the

4:31

validation that I am there

4:33

on the operation side of things. Because

4:36

right now I'm asked to help kind

4:39

of on the corporate level. And then I go in there

4:41

to kind of, you know, maybe straighten something out or

4:43

just some lessons. And

4:45

the people that I'm tasked with going to assist,

4:47

let's say, once they kind of figure

4:49

out what's happening, they're like, who is this guy? Why

4:52

is he helping me? Because I'm a

4:54

manager at this level. And this is

4:56

just John. And John's title is John.

4:58

Okay. Gotcha. You know, the fixer. That's

5:00

been difficult. And that's also caused a

5:02

little, I think, of the reputation of

5:05

me coming in with, I don't want

5:07

to say friction, you know, not yelling and screaming. But

5:10

there's a certain amount of I need to prove what I'm

5:12

doing there every time. Because there's

5:14

an awful lot of people that don't understand why

5:17

I'm doing what I'm doing. So

5:20

what I'm hearing is you are

5:23

being placed in

5:25

a position to make

5:27

some changes, fix some things, right?

5:31

And when you're coming in, the people

5:33

who are going to be impacted are sort of

5:35

like, why is he here? Because

5:38

they don't know who you are because you

5:40

don't have the title or both. It's not

5:42

so much as a why is he here.

5:44

They understand that what I'm there to fix

5:46

are, you know, said issues at hand. It's

5:48

not why am I there. It's why

5:51

am I the person that's there?

5:55

If that helps delineate it. Okay, why

5:57

is he the person that's there? And so

5:59

as a result, Of that. You. Then

6:01

feel like you have to prove that you

6:03

should be the person that's their. right?

6:06

And. Then what happens?

6:09

I mean nothing that we just get to work about

6:11

whatever the the task at hand is. You.

6:13

Know it's just a very odd dynamic.

6:16

So what you would like and correct me if I'm

6:18

wrong. Hear what you would like as you walk in.

6:21

And they're like oh, it's on.

6:23

Yeah. Let's get

6:26

on with it, right? I think there's

6:28

a lot of unnecessary explaining every time

6:30

that needs to happen. Ah,

6:32

about. Experience.

6:34

Qualifications. You know,

6:36

trust in expectations. I. At

6:39

their position where I feel I really need to drive at

6:41

home. Or. I'm not sure

6:43

where the future leads with the

6:45

okay. All right. So if

6:47

you need to drive it home, who

6:49

do you need to? Drive. It home

6:52

with. The people

6:54

that your question while I'm there. There's.

6:56

Never been a problem after we worked

6:58

together after their some training. it's all

7:00

good. After the initial,

7:03

this is what we're doing. You know you came

7:05

from the corporate space. I came from more of

7:07

the industry space. So we need to talk, we

7:09

need to combine and and and that's how we

7:11

can move forward here. To. Help you you

7:13

know because these people are doing something that is

7:16

is not operations is to some a more micro

7:18

thing. You know ignored

7:20

explains this. no issues but from the

7:22

to the complete corporate side you know

7:24

they have their checklist and you know.

7:26

Business. Degree. No formal education

7:29

other than than Maritime College

7:31

know attack. So what have

7:33

they said? Cel? What? Conversations

7:35

have ensued. And. That I

7:37

think is why I'm. Also. Seeking

7:39

your expertise is getting those

7:41

conversations to happen. There

7:44

has been no conversations and say no. But

7:47

no one really gets down to the nitty

7:49

gritty. Of. The conversation and I'm

7:51

trying to nudge that along. To.

7:53

Make that happen. And and that's where. it's

7:55

a little difficult because I get sent out

7:58

to work in the field, a different things

8:00

and a narrow in the office and then

8:02

I come back and it's just a it's

8:04

a leave and come back. There's not a

8:06

constant. Relationship there with the people of

8:08

that I feel. And to have a

8:10

say in me moving up. Aren't So

8:12

if you were, let's imagine that

8:14

you can get the conversation to

8:17

the nitty gritty. That. You.

8:20

Want it to get to? what would that

8:22

look like? You. Know clearer

8:25

expectations. Of the role. And

8:27

or role being created. You

8:29

are not so much worried about

8:31

compensation and things like that. I

8:33

mean, obviously that's that's part of

8:35

it, but it's I'm doing two

8:37

jobs completely different. they don't overlap,

8:40

and. It's. Just been odd

8:42

mix on all sides when I

8:44

slip into the operations role usually

8:46

to sissy new people coming into

8:48

the company from a different side

8:50

of the industry so their expectations

8:52

are unclear and perhaps their knowledge

8:54

base has not. Been. Of We're

8:56

We're on the same level, about the same things. I'm

8:58

trying to figure out how to word it is that

9:01

they expect me to do what I do, which is

9:03

why I get. Sent. To do It. But.

9:05

At the end of the day there is no seats. It says this

9:07

is what you're doing. And what do

9:10

you think is getting in the way as

9:12

it being. On a see

9:14

that says this is. Part of your job description.

9:16

I. Think that my little position is probably

9:18

not the highest priority right now. There's

9:22

massive changes going on, which I understand that, which is

9:24

why I've tried to be patient with this. But.

9:27

Again, going back to watching what's going on.

9:29

I feel I need to make it stick.

9:33

Okay, you know is not a personal

9:35

problem and it's not even a business

9:37

problem is just they don't come from

9:39

the industry they're learning and the whole

9:41

thing is so far and. And

9:43

so you need. That I'd I'd

9:45

I'm sure that anyone knows how to start

9:47

and wrapped head around it or it's. Let's

9:50

talk about the supporters that you have to. That

9:52

sounds like you do have. Some.

9:54

Folks who are. Very. Positive

9:56

on you and support you

9:59

just one. What conversations have you had

10:01

with them about all this? One,

10:03

I'm very close with. We've had conversations.

10:06

He's helped me quite a bit in

10:08

terms of getting here and seeing

10:10

my desire to get here, as well

10:14

as the other supporter. They see it.

10:16

I have a desire to get here. I do what I can. I

10:18

learn a lot. Anywhere that I can soak up

10:21

knowledge to better myself and get somewhere, I do.

10:24

We spoke earlier in this about I like the

10:26

industry because it's a different challenge every day. I

10:29

mean, I'm a person that gets up every day and

10:31

goes, what's today's challenge? Whatever

10:33

it is, I want one. Even if it's a little one, and I want to

10:35

get through it and be higher

10:37

on the other side. They both

10:39

see that. They've helped me

10:42

a lot. They have to protect themselves, as well. They

10:44

can only go so far, and I understand that. What

10:47

I'm trying to get is I just need my foot in the

10:49

next door just a little bit. What

10:54

is the next door for you? Getting

10:56

this little operations assistant

10:58

position and being

11:01

on the road there. Have you made

11:03

that specific ask? Yes. I've

11:05

done a couple courses with that. The

11:08

company has paid for me to do some training. They

11:10

are doing everything that they can. We're

11:14

just going to the corporate side of things and trying

11:16

to say, listen, here's everything that we've done. Here's

11:18

all the education. Here's all the skills. Here's all the

11:20

history. Let's create a role here.

11:24

We never get no, but we don't get

11:26

yes. Okay. So

11:29

you don't get no. You don't get yes. You're

11:31

kind of in limbo. You

11:34

have these folks who support

11:36

you. They

11:38

also agree with you that a

11:40

role could be carved out for you.

11:43

It's taken to corporate. They take it to

11:45

corporate or you take it to corporate? They

11:47

have. They take it to corporate. The

11:51

response is not a no. It's

11:53

not a yes. Right. I feel

11:55

like we're doing, what was it? The three

11:58

bears. Something like that. It's

12:00

not hot, it's not cold, whatever, something like that.

12:02

So what is the response? I

12:04

mean, the reality of it is there

12:06

is no actual response. There's another fire

12:09

maybe with something else that gets attended

12:11

to, and then it gets circled

12:13

back and there's a lot going on and there's

12:15

some bigger fires that have been put out. And

12:19

where I am is you've put me through

12:21

this training, I've showed my desire to do

12:23

it, let's get there. Let's

12:26

make it a priority. Okay. So

12:28

what is stopping you from saying exactly what

12:31

you just said to me, to the

12:33

folks that you know incorporate? I

12:35

know you don't have as much

12:37

of the deep relationship with them

12:40

as you do with these other

12:42

individuals, but what has stopped you

12:44

from having that direct conversation with them?

12:47

The fact that we don't really have a

12:49

chance to have direct communication unless

12:52

it's about an issue at hand.

12:55

There's not really room for,

12:57

shall I say, free speech. This

13:00

is what you're up to, how are we resolving this? This

13:02

is what we need you to be up to. Okay,

13:05

have a good day. Trying

13:07

to get somebody's ear long enough has been tough. And

13:09

then when I do, it gets

13:11

put back down a level to my people, and

13:14

then my people bring it up again, and then

13:16

it's this cycle that has been going

13:19

on. And then

13:21

okay, I'll do more training, I'll do more courses.

13:23

Okay, great. There's

13:25

been a lot of turnover at that corporate level.

13:29

So that's also been a little bit of a

13:31

hindrance because there's a learning curve, let's face it,

13:33

of a year or so before anybody's

13:35

really comfortable in what they're doing. So

13:38

we've gone through that with upper management changes.

13:41

So you're saying that if you

13:43

were to, I'm a tactical type of

13:45

person, right? You're saying if you tried to

13:47

get on the calendar for

13:49

one of these folks up in corporate and you

13:51

just, whoever you need to

13:53

contact to get 30 minutes on their calendar,

13:56

they wouldn't take the meeting? They would

13:58

say, well, you have to go through your map. That you to get to us.

14:01

Which. Has been done. Part. Of the

14:03

need of of trying to prove that I fit

14:06

in his I really don't want to step on

14:08

a buddy's toes and I don't want to seem

14:10

to pussy. You. Know and I'm I

14:12

don't consider myself a timid person. To.

14:14

How I got here. But now that I have something

14:16

that is. To. Me. Kind of delicate

14:18

that I really want. I'm. Almost at

14:21

the point where I just want to take it

14:23

real easy How I don't I don't want to

14:25

be seen as time in charging saints. Gimme gimme

14:27

in a yeah. Yeah. I

14:29

understand, And so there's a part of

14:31

like you want an answer. Right

14:34

And when he is, the part of you

14:36

who wants the answer is like come on

14:38

already ate right? Like. Let's get to it,

14:40

Like have the conversation. Let's put it

14:43

down on paper. Let's make it happen.

14:46

And. Then there's the other side of

14:48

years that's like, hey, you know there's

14:50

a lot going on. You don't want

14:52

to ruffle any feathers. Because

14:54

if you ruffle any

14:57

feathers. It can end up

14:59

not being the response that you want. right?

15:02

I think you need to think about kind

15:04

of. What? Do you

15:06

feel most comfortable with dealing

15:08

because you're seeing the potential

15:11

impact of both, right? Way

15:13

and. Neither one is giving you

15:15

the actual result that you want

15:17

today. But which

15:20

one? Do. You feel

15:22

you could. Live.

15:24

With the most. A

15:27

good point. I. Suppose I'd like to

15:29

say ripped the band aid off and just

15:31

get the answer. I'm at the

15:33

point of my career where I'd like to make something

15:35

happen. I've not done this transition twice in two different

15:37

careers, so I know that if I push too hard

15:40

to the answer. Was. Was happy with

15:42

the industry right now. I. Don't think I'll be

15:44

out of a job at all. But. I don't

15:46

know what the job will be. So.

15:49

I. Didn't answer your question. that was the same

15:51

answer is I'm afraid to know the answer but I

15:53

wanted tomorrow. You know? Yeah,

15:55

I mean that's the tradeoff feel. Like

15:58

I can't give you an answer. Around

16:00

that you know it. But that's the tradeoff

16:02

right? The trade off is the you push

16:05

hard today. For. An answer?

16:07

Knowing. That it might not be the. Answer

16:10

that you want. Or.

16:12

Do you let it play out? Also.

16:15

Knowing that it might not be easy answer, he wants

16:17

it to be. A could not be. I mean so

16:19

the end of the day, you know there's uncertainty. Here.

16:22

And they. Didn't

16:27

pay the. Coaching in his

16:29

challenge seems relatively. Straightforward.

16:32

He was looking to find a permanent

16:34

position and a different kind of role

16:36

at his organization than what he'd previously

16:38

done. He wanted to know how to

16:40

say the headwinds for just because a

16:42

problem is straightforward doesn't make it simple

16:44

because in the case of a promotion

16:46

or job change, it isn't always sits

16:48

about you and the work you put

16:50

in. It's also about

16:53

the preconceived notions what past experiences

16:55

you bring with you and the

16:57

preconceived notions of others have. About

17:00

you. I wanted to get

17:02

some basic ground covered with John first,

17:04

why he wanted his job, what he

17:06

had done and similar roles so far,

17:09

and perhaps most importantly, what, if anything

17:11

he has concretely done to get this

17:13

new prominent role created. And

17:16

as I started getting those details, we

17:18

started to scratch. The surface of something

17:20

deeper. Why he fell? It

17:22

was time in his career for this

17:24

kind of move. We'll dive into this

17:26

more as the session goes on. The

17:28

first: I wanted to help him think

17:31

about similar experiences he's had in the

17:33

past when he faced uncertainties. When.

17:39

You had to make these types of

17:41

choices before. Where it's. Go

17:43

now or way and let it play

17:46

out. How has he made those decisions?

17:48

Always pushed, always gone Now. You

17:50

know, and that comes back to the

17:53

conversation. Settle earlier. As I say one

17:55

reputation that is detracting little bit is

17:57

being kind of a hard charger and.

18:00

In every company needs the people that get

18:02

it done but then we also get labeled

18:04

as. Enough. Not

18:06

team players I guess. So

18:09

do you think that's the third thing

18:11

from you getting the answer? Or. I

18:14

think that's my biggest attractive. For

18:16

the whole thing. You know cause I I

18:18

don't think that the people that are probably not on

18:20

my team. I mean what I say, they're not on

18:22

my team No one has said know your that There's

18:24

never been any issue. right? But we

18:26

we all work and companies We all know

18:29

conversations happen. You know? And

18:31

I think that the conversation I've been trying so

18:33

hard to prove because I've taken all the courses

18:35

or to I've done all this thing than than

18:37

schoolwork. And that's where

18:39

we are, as I'm just trying really hard

18:41

to. Show. I I

18:43

understand what your concerns are, folks.

18:45

I've heard them and. Look at

18:48

me playing nice. Cel I hear

18:50

you around. You know that

18:52

trying hard to make it

18:54

happen, right? Yeah, and

18:56

part of what I really.

18:58

Appreciated. Around when

19:00

I ask you what do you. Love. About

19:02

your. Career. Or even

19:04

getting. Into the space right? getting

19:06

into working and maritime As he

19:08

said. I want the fact that every

19:10

day I wake up and it's a challenge and I'm

19:13

dealing with things. You. Know like Mother Nature that are

19:15

out of your control. right? Yep,

19:17

so. What I'm hearing is there's a lot here

19:19

that's out of your control. Or

19:22

yes and where it is is is coming from

19:24

a confidence of. The things that

19:26

I deal with out of my control

19:28

send the maritime space. I know

19:30

how to deal with and the sales side

19:32

of the company. Those are things that when

19:34

I started kind of doing this I was just

19:36

faking it until I made it with my

19:38

direct supervisor. He gave me as much now

19:41

as as he could. But

19:43

let's face it is and as I said you

19:45

know this little outside of normal will house because

19:47

I don't have a business education. And.

19:50

I'm getting in. Been a business the deeply into

19:52

the business side of the company. And

19:55

is definitely times the conference table where where I

19:57

kind of. Feel. Like I'm in

19:59

elementary school. don't the to teach call

20:01

on me up soon. Go home to

20:03

my research, learn it, and I have.

20:06

And. Know not to talk to talk but

20:08

I'm. I. Don't want to be seen through.

20:11

I. Don't feel like I'm faking. I don't feel like I

20:13

don't belong All And no one has ever said that.

20:16

But certainly I am aware of.

20:19

Areas. I could learn. and you're a learner and

20:21

that's. Okay I think the question is

20:23

do they feel you know as the

20:25

expectation that you need to know more.

20:28

On the business side. In

20:31

order to has and a soul.

20:33

Portal. From. In that

20:35

capacity, But I think there's a

20:37

couple of things You're right because. On

20:40

the one hand, there are things that are

20:42

happening at the macro level. They are out

20:44

of your control like that. Have any. Whether

20:46

you're there, you're not there. You know it's

20:48

the mother nature of your company right now.

20:51

Of her. And then. There

20:53

are the things that are within your control.

20:55

Which I'm hearing as. What?

20:59

Are the capabilities that I need to build.

21:01

To. So up as somebody credible in this

21:03

role, just in terms of background and knowledge.

21:07

Hideaway. Make sure that my behavior.

21:10

Is aligned with being seen as

21:12

a team player. And a collaborator

21:15

and all the Ss the expectation,

21:17

right? one that doesn't feel. And

21:19

eight folks. Are

21:21

non what is also in your control? The

21:23

third piece that's in your control is. How

21:26

hard do I push for clarity

21:28

of this? role? Given. Everything

21:30

going on, A Per.

21:33

Call. Those. Are the

21:35

three things that I hear the number

21:37

one around? The gaining the now it

21:40

sounds like you're working on right? You're

21:42

taking classes, you're going home and during

21:44

the research, etc. Check. That. Case.

21:47

You're working on that. There's. The

21:49

second piece around. What?

21:51

Are you doing relative to

21:53

this? You know? Potential.

21:55

Reputation that you said you have.

21:58

That. Is also. Possibly.

22:00

Contributing to being at the track, their.

22:04

From you. Getting.

22:06

The role that you want. So.

22:09

Under behavioral side. Meaning how

22:11

you deal with people. And

22:13

showing up more a sort of athena.

22:16

Team player more collaborative What are you

22:18

doing on that end? The

22:20

sand so cliche, but you know engage

22:22

brain before speaking. thinking. Hard

22:25

about how. Real. My

22:27

view the situation from the

22:29

industry side. And. Then putting

22:32

on top of it the corporate side of

22:34

what the company and restructure is trying to

22:36

get and saying, you know, how can I

22:38

melt the two thoughts. For. Pertinent

22:40

information only. Reason.

22:42

You're no one has ever said eternal you talking

22:44

about but I say people said well. that doesn't

22:46

matter. And to me or of

22:48

getting bogged down in the in the

22:51

micro. Comes across sometimes is not

22:53

a d player. Because.

22:55

We're not talking about the micro at

22:57

the operations level, you know, and we

22:59

are to some extent. but you know

23:01

it's a more general idea. So.

23:03

That's what they have been working on. This is

23:06

not trying to buy down and details and are

23:08

not necessarily need to be at the table. If.

23:11

I have a solution trying. Do. With.

23:13

How can we do this? What about this

23:15

you know and not trying to be like

23:17

wanna know what you people say. It.

23:20

Up and and and I know that

23:22

that's a win for have my i

23:24

fully admit. When. That's why this

23:26

transition. I'd die do so little on

23:28

eggshells. To. The sort a certain

23:30

been trying their. You. Know email He

23:32

everyone the should be emailed. not going around people mean

23:35

all the basic stuff that we do. You

23:37

know it's it's been, it's been in learning curve there.

23:39

But. Just try really really hard to

23:42

think about how can we invite of people to

23:44

all. Kind of a solution? That

23:46

we need to a not at all levels. I've

23:48

always admired. You know when I was just

23:50

a captain, everybody's to be on board. With.

23:53

What's happening? Mean agree with that. Everybody needs

23:55

to know what's going on. and

23:57

i think there was a part of me when

23:59

i first got into this role and was learning

24:01

it that just didn't involve the people that didn't

24:03

want to play along. Whether

24:06

they could contribute or not, in that

24:08

particular instance, everyone needs

24:10

to be involved. So that's been a

24:12

little bit of a curve there. Okay, so that's

24:14

been a focus for you. Right.

24:17

You're working that piece of it. So

24:20

that means category number two, let me

24:22

make sure I'm being

24:25

a team player is work in progress,

24:27

but you're not ignoring it and you're

24:29

working towards it. Right. And

24:31

as of recent, you know, there's never been a comment about that. There

24:34

certainly was much earlier on in

24:36

this process, you know, which is why

24:39

I'm very sensitive to that. But,

24:41

you know, there's been no problems there. It's

24:44

just something that I know that I need to work extra

24:46

hard on. And it's also bogging

24:48

me down at the same time, because I feel

24:51

that I focus almost too

24:53

much on that to where I lose

24:55

a little bit of myself in the let's

24:57

make a plan and get after it. Mm

25:00

hmm. Yeah. So may

25:02

I suggest in that area that you're not

25:04

necessarily losing a bit of

25:06

yourself, you're using one

25:09

of the muscles that you have less, well,

25:12

sort of countering that with another muscle that

25:15

you're building. I suppose. Yeah.

25:17

No, I get that. No, you know, it's just,

25:20

I get it. I completely understand that.

25:23

I mean, look, I think you're sort

25:25

of saying, hey, in order for me

25:27

to have XYZ

25:29

position, I need

25:31

to be able to do it in a more collaborative

25:34

way. Yes. Or in including more

25:36

people. Yes. Does that

25:38

mean that you're

25:41

losing a part of yourself? No, because that get it

25:43

done piece of you is still there.

25:46

It's not like you're kicking it to

25:48

the curb and saying, you know, never, ever, ever

25:50

show up again. Right.

25:53

You're just saying in this particular situation,

25:56

you know, that's not what's going to

25:58

help me get to my goal. So which one is? Is

26:01

it that you just want to keep doing things the way

26:03

you have been doing them or do you want to do

26:05

things that are going to get you closer to your goal?

26:08

Okay. Yeah. I have

26:10

learned that getting it done on Wednesday sometimes is better

26:12

than getting it done on Tuesday if everyone agrees. Yes,

26:14

exactly. And that's kind of

26:16

the situation. I mean, I think that's sort

26:19

of the issue with this whole

26:22

what's next, what's the role, let's make it

26:24

clear. Getting

26:27

the answer today, it sounds like,

26:29

would make you a heck of a lot

26:32

more comfortable because it

26:34

provides you with the security that you

26:36

know it's your role. And

26:40

you can, as you said, show up and

26:42

have that credibility, etc. But

26:46

I don't have clarity around

26:48

how it would benefit

26:50

everyone else, the

26:53

decision makers. How

26:55

would it benefit them to have

26:57

clarity on your

27:00

role today? How

27:02

would that benefit them in any way? I

27:04

feel that it would benefit them because they

27:06

then know that they have a person

27:08

in that role which they can utilize,

27:12

you know, without the added layer of, oh,

27:15

John has that ability to send him. But

27:17

don't they already have you in the role? Well

27:20

they do, but there's, you know, the

27:22

people that support me, I feel always

27:24

remind the folks that necessarily don't send

27:27

John. So I feel like if the role is

27:29

there, then everyone's in agreement that

27:31

it's been earned, which I've tried

27:33

to do, to the best of my ability

27:35

to at a point in my career where I feel it's

27:37

kind of a pivotal time to make

27:40

the move. But

27:42

John trying to figure out a word this

27:44

you know, if I'm in the position that's

27:46

been created with rules and

27:48

regulations and expectations, then

27:51

that's my role and I can be utilized in

27:53

it. So here's the thing, I

27:55

think that this is an

27:58

exercise in getting people to

28:00

sort of see things the way that you're seeing it.

28:03

What's unclear to me is do they see,

28:06

as I mentioned before, right, do they

28:08

see the benefit of having that

28:10

level of expectation? Because guess what? Regardless

28:13

of whether they've given you the title or not,

28:16

minus that little extra step of St.

28:18

John, you're doing

28:21

it. Like you're fulfilling, you're

28:23

fulfilling the role. Well,

28:25

right, but, and I think also what would benefit

28:27

them and this goes back to

28:29

the start of the conversation when I go and the

28:32

people that I'm working with don't necessarily understand

28:34

my role, because there is no role, there's

28:37

a lot of back and forth that has to go

28:39

back up to them that tells the person, yes, we've

28:42

decided that John is the guy for this. So

28:45

I feel that could be a little benefit to them because

28:47

there's an awful lot of time wasted. Yeah, I

28:49

understand that. I think I'm asking, is that

28:51

a real pain point for them? Doesn't

28:54

matter, right? Because if

28:56

it doesn't matter, there's not gonna be any

28:58

urgency to make that

29:00

decision today. I don't think it's a pain point.

29:02

They just have to deal with it. I mean, every time I get

29:04

sent somewhere, there's probably two days where the

29:06

emails go back and forth about it before I can implement

29:09

anything, you know? Okay. So

29:12

if they're fine with that. Yeah, what would

29:14

create the sense of urgency that

29:16

would make them come

29:18

to a decision of whether there should

29:21

be clarity or not, or whether you have the

29:23

role or not on

29:25

Tuesday versus Wednesday, as you put it? You

29:28

know, I don't know, to be honest with you. A

29:31

lot of people are filling roles that are kind of gray

29:34

area. And I feel

29:36

that that's bogging down the entire process because

29:40

I think there's probably a lot of people in my position.

29:42

I think there's a lot of gray area, all the way up and

29:45

down. And it's just bogging down

29:47

a lot of things. All

29:49

right, so let's go back to the

29:52

choices, okay? The choices, do you

29:54

push today? Or

29:56

do you wait it out? Keep

29:58

doing what you're doing. even

30:01

though there's some discomfort with it,

30:03

right? Keep doing what you're doing and

30:08

wait it out till there's

30:11

a little less uncertainty organizationally

30:15

and then you make your move. We've been talking

30:17

a lot about what it looks like if you push

30:19

today. What would it mean to you if you

30:21

waited it out? I mean the

30:23

self-satisfaction of knowing that I made it would be nice,

30:27

but that's not really a

30:29

factor in company. But just

30:31

knowing that everything I've done and tried

30:33

to accomplish and have been able to

30:36

accomplish for someone who really on

30:38

paper probably shouldn't have been able to get

30:40

there. That

30:42

would be good. And I will

30:44

continue to do what I do because that's just who

30:47

I am. I will always do what I am expected

30:49

to do the best of my ability, but with a

30:51

little bit of a push along the way, I'm sure.

30:53

I mean I feel like either way you're

30:55

going to keep doing what you're doing. It

30:58

sounds like. Right, but with all the uncertainty

31:00

and everything, I don't want to keep doing

31:02

what I'm doing until there's no opportunity to

31:04

do it anymore. That's kind of where

31:06

I'm at. And I

31:08

don't feel that if I don't secure this position, there's

31:11

no upward mobility. If this doesn't happen, I

31:14

will be at this level for the

31:16

foreseeable future. Okay, got

31:19

it. What I wanted to double click on

31:21

is whether you are

31:24

going through some of the basics of

31:28

what it means to try to secure

31:30

a position. And

31:35

from what I'm hearing from you, it sounds

31:37

like you are. I think

31:40

the question is how

31:43

much pressure can you put on the

31:46

people who do support you to get

31:49

some clarity? Right, if you don't

31:51

have access to that upper management, which

31:53

is what you're telling me, that you don't

31:55

have access to them, then

31:57

somebody else needs to be speaking on your behalf.

32:00

Are they. Putting. The type

32:02

of pressure. That. You think

32:04

is warranted. By. Think there's a

32:06

certain kind of apathy for? well, it doesn't

32:08

matter, John. Because we're going to get you there.

32:10

them is going to be a change in a restructured a new

32:12

person and you're still going to be doing what you do. Yeah.

32:16

And you wouldn't have to rely on the system

32:18

you know? So they have put pressure on. And

32:21

some of that is also to your point about when

32:23

do I need the answer as opposed to the end

32:25

of the day? It doesn't matter because of I got

32:27

the answer tomorrow and things could change the next day.

32:29

And all it is A is a different

32:32

business card? Really enough? Yes! I.

32:34

Mean you want an answer which I get.

32:36

You. Know not sign at The smith said. You're

32:39

not surf. You're gonna get the answer that you want.

32:41

Whether that's today, Or. Tomorrow.

32:44

You. Don't know if you're gonna get any answer

32:46

at all. Super hit because that's what's been

32:49

happening. You. Know

32:51

I'm a little curious around. Like what's

32:53

the consequence of you're not getting answer

32:55

Likes? You never get an answer. What

32:57

are you gonna do? I.

33:00

Would keep doing this right now.

33:03

And. Perhaps. Start.

33:05

To pursue other opportunities. But.

33:07

The problem with that is. Getting

33:10

to this particular transition level.

33:13

Would. Be extremely difficult the first.

33:15

sorrow. Your. Honor know that that

33:17

would be warranted and I don't wanna make them will be

33:19

a hoax. Yet so. There's a

33:21

better that you know. Man

33:25

at this is what's coming up for me. My

33:27

mom. When. She was alive on.

33:29

Our favorite things to do is sit go to

33:31

church but then after Chertsey. Would go to

33:33

the casino and play the slots. Cel

33:37

mai kind of my time Sunday he up. And

33:41

I used to be like mom because I was

33:43

this wait for her outside the that I'm i'm

33:45

not us, we're not my thing and I severe

33:47

like. A that how

33:49

long he thinks it's like, well if

33:51

they leave now. For freight.

33:53

Yeah, I'm either leaving with nothing

33:55

because I haven't lost a sort

33:58

of netted out zero. Or.

34:01

I'm. Leaving with whatever. the twenty.

34:03

Five dollars that she had one at that point,

34:05

right? You know? But if I

34:08

stay, maybe there's the possibility. That

34:11

I'm gonna get more. And. Co.

34:14

Would. Like grew. From. And

34:17

I'm not comparing your career like

34:19

literally, to playing the slots like

34:21

it's not that unpredictable. But.

34:24

There's a bit of patching that

34:26

you're doing. And. In

34:29

those situations is really. No

34:32

right. Answer: It's not that

34:34

black and white. Bird

34:36

more. Which one

34:38

do I know? Provides.

34:41

Me with. What? I

34:43

want the most. At

34:45

this point and maybe. You

34:47

then give your suffered a deadline or

34:49

a milestone and say. You

34:52

know if I don't have an answer if

34:54

I don't have clarity by a. Period.

34:57

Of time. Then. I

35:00

have to make a decision then. You.

35:02

Know do I start looking elsewhere? Great knowing that

35:04

I wouldn't be starting at the level that I'm

35:06

at now. I kind of be

35:08

starting a little bit over again. Or

35:10

do I continue to say it's always

35:13

a trade off? And I think right

35:15

now because there isn't clarity, you're not

35:17

getting that clarity from above. Only you

35:19

can answer for yourself which one. Feel

35:22

for most right for you at this moment.

35:24

This. Is why by scratch off ticket you

35:26

just know that a mere scratch tickets I

35:29

don't. Know

35:31

if you might end of the industry was it

35:33

in such blocks the whole industry in? I don't

35:35

They did be as much pressure to from now

35:37

understand. Ah, industry wide, not company

35:39

wanted this point. It's just. An

35:41

added pressure at this point. I

35:44

mean again, I think you're dealing with a lot

35:46

of uncertainty and I hear you around wanting to

35:48

nail down and you wisely said, even if I

35:50

nail it down doesn't mean that it's gonna be

35:52

nailed down. Tomorrow night. So

35:55

we sort of pullback. bigger picture

35:57

I think what? you're. Looking.

35:59

For. Some sense of

36:01

like stability. And

36:04

security in the larger

36:06

context. Of a lot of flux and change.

36:09

Where. You're looking. You're kind of

36:11

looking for this job. Clarity pieces

36:13

that ether. Way. But.

36:15

It's say I in it, I'm not being

36:18

car right? Now. Sits.

36:20

In each on like there's a little

36:22

bit of like okay, are there other

36:24

areas that you could look for that

36:26

gives you some form of. Stability.

36:29

While you. Wait

36:32

for the clarification. And

36:35

when you're being passes. By.

36:38

We wouldn't be having this conversation if you

36:40

being passive. But while you continue

36:42

to do the work to get clarity, With

36:45

her. So that's a question to you.

36:48

Like what do you think you can anchor

36:50

in. To give

36:52

you the wherewithal? To continue

36:54

to do the work that you have been doing.

36:57

To. Get clarity. I. Mean,

36:59

I'm in the company or I was. make a

37:01

point. Now the people that. I. Don't say

37:03

doubters, but that needed clarification of why I

37:05

was there in the first place. Once

37:08

we get past that, I always make it

37:10

a point to reach out and keep the

37:12

relationships. almost of the other

37:14

not be to keep your enemies closer kind of thing.

37:17

And that has served me well because you know,

37:19

be able to convert people Converse the wrong word.

37:21

I'm a note I make it like that. it's

37:23

a Us versus Them kind of say. Knew it

37:26

wasn't even with no One's Against me. But

37:29

some of the doubters I have definitely been able

37:31

to. Nudge in my favor.

37:33

You know it's like that. gives me a

37:35

lot of purpose in charge. You just keep

37:38

doing on. Do and prove it. Show it.

37:40

You know something good has to come in at is a way

37:43

that I feel about it. Yeah. But

37:45

then I'm also seeing. You know, Not.

37:47

Necessarily. In. Isn't this? And

37:50

this world as we we all have uncertainty but

37:52

trying to get into the corporate space is a

37:54

little more surgeon and just. In

37:56

this industry them kind of. One.

37:59

Level down. Yeah, no I mean, I

38:01

I, I get it and I wish I could

38:03

tell you. You know here. Third,

38:05

one, two, three. That's gonna get you. A

38:08

hundred percent guaranteed corporate security. But head

38:11

corporate security is not. There is no

38:13

such thing, right? It might be more

38:15

secure than the world that you were

38:17

in before. For sure. A relatively in

38:19

terms of. Job Security maybe? Orders

38:22

were however you wanted to

38:24

find security. But there

38:26

is no guarantee. I. Will

38:28

show you my got the next point. If.

38:30

For whatever reason, That

38:32

didn't work out. at least getting to that point.

38:35

Would. Give you a leg up on starting higher elsewhere.

38:37

Okay, great. Okay, so let's keep

38:39

that. And that one for

38:42

in heard that one. Trajectory

38:44

that could be and if you get

38:46

there, it'll give you a leg up.

38:49

That's a possibility that. The.

38:51

Potential! Book that you right Hook that.

38:54

There. May also be because this is the

38:56

future. We don't know exactly what's gonna happen,

38:58

even if you take all these steps that

39:01

you're taken. The other story

39:03

might be hey John, you did all

39:05

these things. You checked all the boxes,

39:07

And because of all this gray area

39:10

because of things being so influx. It

39:12

and work out that way you didn't get

39:15

that role he know that you had been

39:17

eyes. So. How do

39:19

you finish that story? Yeah. I

39:23

do a story. That's.

39:25

A. It. Doesn't

39:28

necessarily mean you don't have a leg up.

39:31

I mean, that's one way to end it. But.

39:34

Is there a way of and then that story where

39:36

you still. Can. Pursue.

39:39

Whatever goals you have. right?

39:41

I mean if you just keep going along. You

39:44

don't? I just keep going along my merry way here,

39:46

doing what I've been doing. I

39:48

don't get there and we so. Still

39:51

kind of the same thing at the end of the day, I

39:53

suppose. I know I might not

39:55

be the book that you want, right? Yeah, It's

39:58

not even about the time. In terms

40:00

of. Having the title. whom.

40:03

You know it's about the recognition or

40:05

the efforts were trying to go and

40:07

the ability to say. Here we are.

40:10

Respected see that? The table? You know? Before

40:16

we can really start crafting an action

40:18

plan, we have to really understand what

40:20

the goal is and what might be

40:23

holding someone back from that goal and

40:25

more importantly, what is and isn't in

40:27

our control. And it's

40:29

conversation. We headed down the path

40:31

of what is a bit to

40:33

really say is uncertainty. Even embrace

40:35

it because as much as someone

40:37

wants to reach this goal, the

40:39

reality is that like the whether.

40:41

We can't always control what our

40:43

boss or industry or our economy

40:46

is doing. Taking a step

40:48

back and getting prospectus can actually help

40:50

us gain. Confidence We can't predict

40:52

the future or we can

40:54

control. What's in our control in

40:57

the president? With that

40:59

in mind let's see the turn that to take

41:01

it from here. So

41:08

do the efforts mean anything? if you don't

41:10

get the seat at the table. Yes,

41:13

because it wasn't for the efforts, I wouldn't even

41:15

have a chance. This chance does

41:17

not exist elsewhere in the world if

41:19

we if we really zoom in right

41:21

now to how I've kind of come

41:24

up and and what I'm doing making

41:26

the transition, you know, Commercial.

41:28

Commercial Corporate Recreational Recreational Corporate.

41:32

Not was that is not a big industry. You

41:34

know? So so the efforts do. Mean.

41:37

Something. I mean, there's enough people at that have

41:39

seen it happen to. Getting

41:41

here is almost just as just as

41:43

good as finishing your, you know, But.

41:46

It would be nice to also get the see. That, but I

41:48

don't want to be finished here. Yeah, I

41:51

understand, right? And so.

41:54

I think they'll what we're dealing is

41:56

sort of opening the aperture to say.

41:59

That. end all is not the getting the

42:01

seat at the table. It would be nice. I

42:04

want that for you. You want that for you.

42:06

And recognize that

42:09

it may happen, it may

42:11

not happen, or even third,

42:14

it may not happen on your

42:16

time. Because that timepiece

42:18

is the part that's not in your

42:20

control. Right. So

42:23

then knowing all of that, it is

42:25

a decision, right, around

42:28

do I push for

42:30

it to try to make it happen right now,

42:33

knowing that it

42:35

doesn't look like people are really willing

42:37

to make that decision? Or

42:40

do I continue to put in the effort,

42:42

continue to have the conversations, continue

42:45

to express my interest in

42:47

this, continue to try to get

42:50

closer to whoever the decision-makers are,

42:52

continue to try to schedule time

42:54

with them, no matter

42:56

how many times they sort of say talk

42:58

to your manager, talk to your manager, bring

43:00

the managers along with me, right, scheduled time

43:03

for all of us to

43:05

sit and talk until I

43:07

get to a point where I'm like, you know what, the

43:10

effort's not worth it to me anymore, which

43:12

maybe you'll never get to. It

43:15

goes back to the challenge we talked about. I

43:18

got to probably where I am faster than most at

43:20

an age younger than most. You know, every time I've

43:22

always gone for more, I've gotten more. And now that

43:24

I can't have it, it's nothing I

43:26

can't have, it just hasn't happened, you know. It

43:29

just hasn't happened on your time. Right. That's,

43:31

I think what the and for somebody

43:33

who is, you know, let's

43:36

just get it done now.

43:39

Right. Yesterday, actually. Yesterday.

43:41

That can be hard.

43:43

Right. But sometimes, you

43:45

know, just because you want to get

43:48

something done, as you said before,

43:50

if nobody else is wanting to get it

43:52

done, unless you can create a reason for

43:54

them to get it done now, that's why I

43:56

was asking, right? Like what creates the urgency

43:58

for them? Yeah, that. I just should,

44:00

I wrote that down. That's sitting with me about coming

44:02

up with kind of, how does

44:04

this benefit you reasons? Yeah.

44:07

I mean, I think you have to meet them where they are,

44:09

right? Like you are proposing

44:11

a change and

44:14

in order to get a change through, you

44:16

have to frame it from a place of

44:18

how is the change gonna benefit these

44:21

other folks who are decision makers? And

44:23

not only are you proposing a change, you're

44:26

kind of proposing it as an urgent change,

44:28

right? And urgent meaning, hey, out of all

44:30

the stuff that's happening right now, I

44:33

would like this for you to be paying attention

44:35

to this. Which means it

44:37

needs to be higher on the priority list. Well,

44:39

how do you make things higher on the priority

44:42

list? You have to give them a reason for

44:44

it to be important to them. Yeah. A

44:47

hundred percent. Because the way I've been looking at it,

44:49

which you've given me the light to today is, you

44:52

brought me over here, you let me do this role, so

44:54

you guys must see something. And

44:57

I've been looking at it too much that way of, you let me

45:00

do it, why can't I, I need to

45:02

change my way of thinking about it a

45:04

little bit to what can I do for

45:06

you instead of look what I've

45:08

done for you. Yes. If

45:12

that makes sense to me, but. Yeah,

45:14

no, absolutely. I think

45:17

that your success has been

45:19

around people calling

45:21

you in, right? You've

45:23

been in demand. Right. When

45:26

I asked you, oh, well, why are you the guy who

45:29

gets called in? You were like, oh, just because I get

45:31

it done. So I get the phone call, I get the

45:33

phone call. But now you're the one having to make

45:35

the phone call. Right. Nobody's

45:37

calling, not nobody. I know

45:39

what you mean. They're not calling. Yeah, and I'm

45:41

just a results person. So the whole, in my

45:43

mind, look what I've done. Yeah. Equals

45:46

what can I do for you, but that's

45:48

not necessarily the case. You need to differentiate

45:50

that. That's not necessarily the case, exactly. So

45:53

I think that's your homework. And I don't know these folks.

45:56

So I can't tell you, oh, here is what, let me lay out for you

45:58

what's important to them. I will

46:01

tell you that when you're operating

46:03

you know at a more senior

46:05

level and you are operating are

46:07

leading or managing a restructuring or

46:10

change in the company framing. Any.

46:13

Opportunity to them in a way where

46:15

they understand what would be lost. If

46:18

you weren't the one in that room

46:20

from the perspective that they sit great

46:22

Lakes, how do you make the restructuring

46:24

easier for them? How do

46:26

you make? The. Issues that they

46:28

are dealing with. So.

46:31

That's the homework units have like live keeping them

46:33

up at night. And had

46:35

is you. Being. In

46:37

this particular role, help them get a

46:39

little more sleep. That's the

46:42

question. Yes, it's me. And

46:44

so do you have a sense of

46:46

how you might be able to. Get.

46:49

A little bit more. Information

46:51

as sir. How to answer that question? There

46:54

are others. Are ya the My: Talk

46:56

to my direct supervisor. We

46:58

could break down little more. What?

47:01

I take off his plate. So what? He's able to

47:03

do more. And get than

47:05

up to them! Yes,

47:08

So. Without knowing the

47:10

details, Something you might want to

47:12

look into is how do you

47:14

create. A proposal.

47:17

For. Your role and maybe you

47:19

provide different. Options I here

47:21

are the three different options

47:23

for ethic. Of how john

47:25

play a role. But.

47:28

Show them how it sits with this

47:30

new plan that they've articulated. And

47:33

how it will help make that plan

47:35

succeed. Case. I

47:38

think there's a little bit of making sure that. This

47:41

conversation that you're having about your

47:43

career internally and your role is

47:45

Not. Corporate

47:47

divorce from. What's.

47:50

Happening. Bigger picture.

47:53

Because. Then it feels like to. An

47:56

aside. Rather, Than

47:58

being credible. To. What's. Happening over

48:00

all. Yeah, okay. Continuing

48:03

to put it down, you know for

48:05

you to put it down on paper

48:07

and then use the people you know,

48:09

your manager, etc to try to get

48:11

it to the folks. More.

48:14

Senior And better yet, if there could be a

48:16

meeting where it's all of you together. It

48:19

would give you a chance that kind of present

48:21

to pitch yourself. right? Yeah, we

48:23

are so many meetings. We were

48:25

all together. Business always the agenda.

48:28

Be. Ah, so I need. I need, as you say, put

48:30

myself on the agenda. Units. Put

48:32

yourself on the agenda. Of

48:35

understand that Me: that that to me that big

48:37

thing right? Like. As you said,

48:39

you sort of said, I'm doing great work.

48:41

Europe mindset has been: I'm doing great work

48:44

they should want. Me to be and us.

48:47

And that's what's worked for you in the past,

48:49

right? right? You've been in the man and now

48:51

it's like. I

48:53

need to kind of advocate. For. Myself

48:55

I need to present it and all I

48:57

can do is put the best effort forward

49:00

to present myself whole thing right. How do

49:02

I increase the chances that they notice and

49:04

they say yes? But knowing that that's not

49:06

a guarantee, right? And if it's not a

49:08

guarantee, then here's what I know. What: I'm

49:11

an idiot. Exactly. And

49:13

then yeah, okay, I would

49:15

love to hear. How

49:18

you're feeling, Now. Versus

49:20

at the beginning. Of our conversation and where

49:22

you've gained clarity. Definitely.

49:24

Game clarity in the how. To.

49:27

Presented. To the upper

49:29

management corporate about what can I do for you.

49:32

How can be doing that for you or

49:34

sector big picture? And focus

49:37

less on this is what I have been

49:39

doing. This. Is Howard been doing it?

49:42

Which. Is why I'm allowed a seat at the table. In

49:44

the first place. That's been my

49:46

mindset, which has been I've gotten here

49:49

based on my merits, and I'm here.

49:51

But. What are we doing? So

49:53

now you know I I need to. Bring.

49:56

It to I'm here If I stay here.

49:58

This. Is how I can help. You've allowed me

50:00

here because of these reasons, and it's because of his

50:03

reasons that I can continue to do these things for

50:05

you. And.

50:07

To push and to not be afraid to, you know, do a

50:09

little proposal Because I I got to the point of where I

50:11

wanted to be and then I'd. Got. Gun shy

50:14

about. Don't. South, you know, It's

50:16

going south so. Yeah yeah.

50:19

And either way you'll be able to handle. It right has

50:21

you've handled it before. And it turned out

50:23

pretty that. Could. Look at where you are now. Yeah.

50:26

Thank you and again thanks for taking me

50:28

I I presented. No

50:33

matter what the issue when I caught a

50:35

client, my goal is not to leave any

50:37

one down one path or another. It's

50:40

really about guiding them to see and the

50:42

find The trade off Stay safe, And

50:44

sound case it's weighing the trade off or

50:47

whether he should keep pushing for the role

50:49

he wants or wait it out a bit

50:51

longer and then help them start working through

50:54

with each path might lead and discerning whether

50:56

either direction deaths than closer to where they

50:58

really want to go and important take away

51:00

Sir John and many others striving for their

51:03

next role is also to step out of

51:05

what you want as it and really think

51:07

about how your ask might be made more

51:10

relevant for the decision makers above them back

51:12

in hope you start building a different kind.

51:14

Of action plan and thickness steps to get

51:16

you closer to your goal that you've been.

51:18

Before. That

51:26

said for this episode of Coaching Really

51:28

Earth Next time I start my new

51:30

jobs and a few days and as

51:32

I look ahead I am asking myself

51:35

the question. How do

51:37

you stay out of burn out. Ahead

51:40

and really into his. And if you, if

51:42

you love the coaching conversations and pitching really

51:44

does, it would mean the world to me.

51:47

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52:08

Become a member at Coaching Real Leaders.

52:10

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52:12

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52:14

Jarrell. Wilkins. Thanks. To

52:16

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52:19

editor Nick Punto, music composer

52:21

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52:23

Sofa and the entire. Team at

52:25

H B O Much gratitude to the

52:27

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52:29

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52:31

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52:33

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52:36

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52:38

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52:45

Wilkins until next time The Well.