0:07

I'm Yriel Wilkins and this is Coaching

0:09

Real Leaders, part of the HBR Podcast

0:11

Network. I'm a long-time executive

0:14

coach who works with highly successful leaders who've

0:16

hit a bump in the road. My

0:18

job is to help them get over that bump

0:20

by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way

0:22

to reach them so that hopefully they can lead

0:24

with a little more ease. I

0:27

typically work with clients over the course

0:29

of several months, but on this show

0:31

we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing

0:33

on a specific leadership challenge they're facing.

0:42

Today's guest is someone we'll call

0:44

Rachel to protect her confidentiality. She's

0:46

been at her company for a while and has moved

0:48

quickly up the ladder. My growth

0:51

path has been very steep. I started

0:53

as an individual contributor, moved very quickly

0:55

into managing a small team, and now

0:59

I manage a larger

1:01

team and I manage managers. So

1:04

I've constantly find myself thrust in

1:06

these new spaces and

1:08

like I'm playing catch-up. In

1:10

terms of, okay, I move into

1:13

a role probably before I was

1:15

a little bit ready and

1:17

so I feel like I'm in the

1:19

role while I'm figuring out what that

1:21

role is and what you were supposed

1:23

to do at that level. I

1:25

tend to feel less like I'm

1:27

catching up and more comfortable

1:30

when I have

1:33

conviction around my

1:36

priorities and my approach.

1:39

Like every once in a while I will get

1:41

to a point where I

1:44

know where I can add value. While

1:46

Rachel hasn't always felt like her footing was

1:48

steady in new roles, she does feel like

1:50

there's been some data to show that she's

1:52

done a good job so far. She's

1:55

gotten direct team feedback and

1:57

the aforementioned promotions, including most

1:59

recently to be a manager of managers. She

2:02

attributes much of her advancement to her

2:04

ability to work well with others. I

2:07

had done a relatively good job

2:09

with my smaller team, and

2:12

I had been at the company at

2:14

that point for a number of years,

2:16

and so I knew the company, and

2:18

I think I had built a pretty

2:21

strong network of people internally,

2:24

and for my type of role, that's important, the

2:26

relationships is sort of our

2:28

currency. I don't have authority over these

2:30

other functions that I work with, and

2:32

so I think because I had done well

2:34

with my team, I had a

2:37

history at the company and the relationships, they

2:39

were willing to give me that chance. Now, Rachel

2:41

wants to make sure she's positioning herself

2:44

in the right way to continue to

2:46

show her value and to adapt with

2:48

the organization. While she managed

2:50

to climb the ladder previously, she wants to

2:52

make sure she's being strategic going forward. Let's

2:54

start the coaching conversation as I ask how

2:56

the role is going a few years and

2:59

where she thinks her pain points might lie. Part

3:04

of the problem is I can't

3:06

even write a problem statement

3:08

at this point. I feel

3:10

very scattered, I feel

3:12

very reactive to my environment,

3:16

and the thing I'm thinking a

3:18

lot about is both for where

3:20

the company is and for myself,

3:23

it very much feels like as

3:25

a company, what got us from A to B won't get us

3:27

to B to C, it very

3:29

much feels like a transitional, scaling

3:32

growth phase for the company, and

3:35

for myself, okay, what got me

3:38

where I am is not what's gonna get me to

3:41

the next level, and I feel

3:43

like the stars could align, again,

3:48

for me to continue to add value and

3:52

expand my influence and grow to the

3:55

next role. I

3:57

don't know that I'm positioning myself well for that

3:59

opportunity. And so I'm worried

4:02

if I'm not a part of that B2C,

4:05

someone else will take everyone

4:07

from B2C and I'll sort of

4:09

be relegated to you were the

4:11

A2B person. And

4:13

you did great at A2B and we appreciate you for that.

4:16

But you know, now these other things are happening.

4:18

So I feel like there's so

4:20

much opportunity in front of me. And

4:23

just given what's going on with the company and the

4:25

kind of role that I'm in, there's

4:28

so much opportunity sort of sitting right

4:30

in front of me. And I could grab

4:32

it, but it's hazy. And I don't know how to do

4:35

that. And I don't know how to take

4:37

advantage of that or not let it pass

4:39

me by. And then in the

4:41

meantime, there's all these facts and

4:43

emails and meetings that are, you know,

4:45

creating a lot of noise and distraction.

4:47

And I'm having a really hard time

4:49

figuring out what is my biggest challenge

4:51

right now? What should I be focused

4:53

on? What is that opportunity?

4:55

How do I take advantage of the

4:57

opportunity? Okay. And just playing it back just

5:00

to make sure I understand you feel like you've

5:02

been able to operate at a

5:04

certain level, right? Like play the sport.

5:07

Almost like I've been playing, I

5:09

don't know, pick a sport. We

5:11

can do baseball. Baseball. Okay.

5:14

I know nothing about baseball. You've been

5:16

playing local baseball. And

5:19

now you're like, hmm, but

5:21

I think I can play

5:23

at the regional level, you know, or

5:25

maybe even at the national level, but

5:30

not quite clear what that

5:32

even looks like. And

5:35

I don't even know like what

5:37

I'm supposed to do to prepare

5:39

myself to play at that level.

5:42

And so I'm concerned that because of

5:45

that, I'm just going to stay stuck playing

5:47

in the local town team. Did

5:49

I get that right? Exactly. And

5:52

it's not like right now there is an open

5:54

role on that national team. There's

5:57

not a role that I'm trying to move into. There's

5:59

no specific. role out there. So it's not like,

6:01

oh, they're going to be recruiting for the national

6:03

team next week and I want to be ready.

6:06

It's very much, I just want to be ready no

6:08

matter what. I don't know when or

6:10

if that opportunity is going to be

6:13

there, but I would like to position myself

6:16

so that if it does and the stars

6:18

align again, it's not something

6:20

that's just happening to me

6:22

because of these other circumstances. It's because

6:25

I've prepared and I'm ready. So

6:27

going back to sort of the baseball analogy,

6:30

it's like, hey, I don't know if

6:32

there's going to be a spot that opens up on

6:34

the regional team, but I want to be ready so

6:36

that if a spot opens up, they

6:38

can look at me and select me. Yes,

6:41

understood. I think. And

6:45

so why do you want to play at the regional

6:47

level? A couple

6:49

things. My goal in

6:52

my head for my career for a while

6:54

has been I would love to be a

6:56

COO someday. I don't even know if I

6:58

could tell you exactly what a COO does,

7:01

but just that

7:03

how do people work? How efficient

7:05

are we? So I would

7:07

love to get to a very senior level

7:10

in my career right

7:13

now. I mean,

7:15

I sort of constantly feel like I'm in a

7:17

learning space, which is what I love.

7:20

And so if the company is going from

7:22

B to C, I really

7:24

want to be front and center and a

7:26

part of that. So I'm seeing it all

7:28

up close and able to learn, okay, what

7:30

does it look like when this

7:33

happens and when you're scaling in this way?

7:36

Because I want to be able to learn from

7:38

that and have that experience and be able to

7:41

take that wherever if I go somewhere next or

7:43

just apply it where I am. So

7:45

I feel like the

7:48

kinds of problems either

7:50

I'm experiencing or the company is experiencing

7:53

are the kinds of problems I like to solve and

7:56

I'm interested in and I want to know what that's

7:58

like. I want to be a part of. that transformation.

8:02

And what's holding you back from being a

8:04

part of that transformation? Just me. It's

8:07

honestly just me because

8:09

I think I've gotten a lot

8:11

of positive signal from our leadership

8:14

team. Recently, I've gotten a lot

8:17

more exposure working with our executive team, which I

8:19

never had before. So I feel

8:21

like everyone's kind of leaving the door open

8:23

for me and they maybe still see some

8:25

potential and they're willing to invest in me.

8:28

But that's not their job to make sure I get

8:31

there. But the door's open and I feel

8:33

like no one's telling me

8:36

I can't do something or I shouldn't

8:38

do something. I think it's the

8:40

time where I need to

8:42

be proactive about what's needed

8:44

and can I add value

8:47

there. So there's nothing. Hold

8:50

it. Just me figuring out what do I

8:52

do? How do I do that? And what

8:54

is getting in the way of you figuring out what do

8:56

you do? Especially because

8:59

there is a lot of noise

9:01

in my day-to-day. Things

9:04

feel really urgent and it can

9:06

be really distracting and it's hard

9:08

to carve out the time

9:10

to sit in focus. I

9:13

think the other thing that's

9:15

keeping me from doing some of this

9:18

is I've been more aware

9:20

recently that I don't know that I'm

9:22

speaking the same language as

9:24

the senior leaders around

9:27

me that I'm now interacting a little more

9:29

with. It's like

9:31

there's this group of senior leaders that

9:34

have all been playing chess together

9:36

for a very long time and

9:38

there's politics and there's biases

9:40

and there's their priorities and

9:43

there's a lot of things that they're dealing with that I

9:45

have no idea about. They've all been playing chess together for

9:47

a very long time and I'm kind of the new person

9:51

watching on the side and trying

9:54

to understand those dynamics but I'm

9:57

still new in that space and I'm not at the

9:59

same level. as those people. And so

10:01

I just feel like I'm speaking

10:03

a different language sometimes. Because

10:06

what I know is probably more tactical

10:08

than how they're thinking about things. And

10:10

I don't know how to talk

10:13

about either what's needed

10:15

from them or the value that I could

10:17

bring. Because I see a lot

10:19

and I feel like there's a lot happening at the

10:21

organization and the company and we need to scale and

10:24

we need to do this and we have all these

10:26

problems. I feel like

10:28

I could be a really good bridge with our

10:30

leaders. They want to understand what's going on. They

10:32

don't always get the real story from people. So

10:35

I just don't know how to

10:37

figure out where's the right

10:39

place to add. Do they

10:41

even want me to add value there? But

10:44

I feel like I need to be proactive

10:47

about something there. So I

10:49

don't know if you can tell. It's very hard for

10:51

me to even describe what

10:53

that's like and that's why

10:56

it just feels like opportunity. But it's

10:58

very hard for me to even articulate what that is.

11:03

And then it makes it easier for sort of the,

11:06

as you put it, the day-to-day noise

11:08

and distraction to just kind

11:10

of avoid it. Exactly.

11:12

Exactly. It's like I don't know

11:14

what to do so I'm not

11:16

doing anything. But great, I have

11:18

all these things to make me feel important and busy.

11:20

And then I'm like,

11:23

well, shoot, if I keep doing that, this is going to

11:25

pass me by whatever this is. Whatever

11:29

this is. Exactly. Yes, whatever

11:31

this is. And I'm just

11:33

going to be honest with

11:36

you. I don't know what

11:38

this is. Because I'm not in

11:40

your company and part

11:43

of being proactive is defining

11:45

what this is. And

11:48

then testing it out. So

11:51

let me ask you a quick question.

11:53

I know you're feeling like you're

11:56

speaking a different language. Have

11:58

you gotten any... evidence that

12:02

supports that belief? A

12:05

little bit. So for

12:07

example, there was one meeting with

12:11

some of our executive team, and

12:14

I was presenting. And

12:17

I think I even knew

12:19

going into that that I

12:22

don't think I'm sharing the right information

12:24

that's going to enable the decision that

12:26

needs to happen, but I'm

12:28

also working with a bunch of other people

12:30

that have opinions about this, and I'm trying

12:32

to bring the collective voice. And

12:35

the feedback I got after that meeting from one

12:37

of the executives, because I asked for

12:39

it, he

12:42

knew how he wanted to

12:44

see things and what he wanted to see

12:46

and what I had put together with the

12:48

team and presented, wasn't

12:51

giving him what he needed. And we actually were not

12:53

able to make a decision in that meeting,

12:55

and then things had to be

12:57

followed up afterwards. So I have gotten

13:00

some feedback like that. And

13:02

then in a couple

13:04

other conversations, just body

13:06

language, and it just feels like

13:08

what I'm saying isn't always landing

13:11

or resonating, but

13:14

they're still giving me a shot. It's like, I don't think

13:16

I quite understand what you're saying. Let

13:19

me try to offer something. And

13:22

again, no one has told me, don't

13:24

do this. No one has stopped talking to me. But

13:27

it's like, well, how many chances am I going to

13:29

get to figure this out before they think, oh, well,

13:31

actually, I don't think she's that person who can help

13:33

us do this. OK. So

13:35

first of all, I do want

13:37

to acknowledge your

13:40

astuteness in

13:42

sensing that something is

13:45

not quite on path, because

13:48

that can come from one of two places, right? It

13:50

either comes from internally, you're kind of

13:52

feeling like something's something, right?

13:57

Or externally, you get the feedback. And I'm a

13:59

big believer in. triangulation. This isn't really

14:01

triangulation. It's dualation, I guess, I

14:03

don't know. And that's why

14:05

I asked, you know, okay, you're, I hear

14:08

you in terms of you feeling like you're

14:10

not speaking that language, but have you gotten

14:12

validation that others feel like you're not speaking

14:15

the same language? And it seems like at least

14:17

you have one or two data points where that

14:19

might be the case. Okay, which means we're

14:22

dealing with something that's maybe

14:24

real rather than, you know,

14:26

the story that we're telling ourselves. And

14:28

that's the first place that we want to start. You've

14:31

stated a couple of times, I don't know how to

14:34

speak their

14:37

language. If you

14:39

knew how to speak their language, right?

14:42

The matter of language, would you

14:44

know what to say? So

14:46

for example, if I go to a

14:49

different country, where I don't know

14:51

how to speak the language, I

14:53

might know what I want to say, right? In

14:55

a restaurant, I might know that I want to

14:57

say I would like to order the pizza,

15:01

but I might not know how to say it.

15:04

I see. Versus going into a restaurant and being

15:06

like, I have no idea what I want, or

15:08

what I want to say. And

15:11

I don't know how to say what I

15:13

don't know what I would say. You get what

15:15

I'm saying. I'm getting myself all mixed up. So

15:17

if we decouple the two, you've already

15:20

checked the box on, I don't know

15:22

how to say it. And

15:25

I'm just kicking the tire. Do you know

15:27

what you would want to say in those

15:30

meetings? That is a

15:32

really great distinction and a

15:34

really great question. And I think

15:37

the answer is no, I don't even know what I

15:39

want to say. And I don't know

15:41

how to say it in a way that's going to

15:43

land with them. What

15:46

I think about in those situations

15:49

is I really see it as my

15:52

role and where I add

15:54

value when I'm bringing transparency

15:56

to things and a neutral

15:58

opinion. And so I

16:00

know that I want to do that and

16:03

whatever I'm reporting to this group,

16:06

that I want to have that lens.

16:09

So I have some sense of what I think

16:11

I need to be, but I don't know that

16:14

it's not always clear to me,

16:16

oh, this is what I want to go say to

16:18

them. How do I say it? I think it's like,

16:20

well, I think I, there's definitely things I need to

16:22

be surfacing and there's definitely things they're going to want

16:24

to know about and there's information they're going to need.

16:27

And I don't know how to say that. So I think

16:30

I understand what I, the lens I want

16:32

to bring to it, but I don't know

16:34

what that content would even be. Okay.

16:38

Well, it's very hard to figure

16:41

out how to

16:43

share your perspective if

16:46

you don't have a perspective. Right.

16:49

And I think what I hear you saying is

16:51

I have an

16:54

intention or an approach on

16:57

the type of perspective I'd like to

17:00

share. Yes. Right. Which is your lens.

17:02

Yes. So you said, I want

17:04

to be able to provide a

17:07

neutral, transparent perspective on

17:09

this issue. And

17:11

then you've jumped from that to, so how

17:14

do I share that? Right. In a way

17:16

that's going to resonate with them and

17:19

land with them and give them a

17:22

chance to absorb it. And

17:26

in between those two things, there

17:28

has to be, well, what is

17:30

your perspective? Right. And

17:32

you used a word earlier in

17:34

our conversation and you

17:36

said, well, I never really feel like I've caught up, but

17:39

I, I did get to a point where I

17:41

felt comfortable. And the word

17:43

you use to describe your level of

17:45

comfort, of being comfortable, you said, I had

17:48

conviction. And

17:52

so I'm curious, what

17:54

is your level of conviction?

17:57

Forget the language piece.

18:00

Okay, let's like before you even

18:02

get in these rooms and in

18:04

these spaces. I'm curious What

18:06

is the level of conviction that you have

18:08

on? These

18:11

perspectives that you're trying to bring

18:13

in a neutral and transparent way.

18:15

I Would say very

18:17

low. I have very low Conviction

18:21

there's a lot of information. There's also a lot

18:23

of voices in the room

18:26

Because part of my role is I'm

18:29

working very cross functionally the

18:31

way our company is structured is very

18:34

matrixed and I feel like

18:37

because I Don't

18:39

have conviction in my own Perspective.

18:43

I'm also very easily influenced

18:45

by the people I'm working

18:48

with and it's I just yeah, I can't believe

18:50

now we're getting here because this

18:53

has been another thought bouncing around

18:55

in my head is I

18:58

feel like I I haven't built

19:00

yet a good judgment about when

19:03

do I have

19:06

conviction and feel comfortable about my

19:09

Perspective and then I really push that

19:12

to the front of the conversation First

19:15

when should I be deferring to these

19:17

people that are maybe more senior than me and seem to

19:19

have a lot more conviction Than

19:21

me and so then okay now My

19:24

conviction is just low going into

19:26

this situation. And so I kind

19:28

of default to well,

19:31

let me neutrally

19:33

present everyone else's perspective

19:37

Rather than taking that in and

19:39

then bringing that forward so

19:42

by you Presenting

19:45

it in a neutral way. It's almost

19:47

like you're preempting The

19:50

possibility of them for lack

19:52

of a more gracious Elevated

19:54

word like poo-pooing all over your idea

19:58

Mm-hmm. Yeah And what if

20:00

you went in with conviction around what you

20:02

think needs to be done? And again, I

20:04

don't know exactly what your, you know, what

20:06

the content is that you're focused on, but

20:08

let's just play it out because they're not

20:10

here, it's just me. Like what if you

20:12

went in with conviction

20:15

and a perspective

20:18

on what needs to be done or

20:20

the data that you're presenting and a

20:22

point of view? What's

20:25

the worst case that could happen? I

20:28

mean, the worst case, I

20:30

think there's two things that

20:32

come to mind. One is that

20:35

my perspective or what I am presenting or bringing

20:37

to the table causes

20:39

more confusion and chaos,

20:43

for lack of a better word.

20:45

Like I really want to be bringing clarity

20:47

and progress to the table and I worry,

20:49

okay, if I'm wrong or

20:51

if I'm off base or if I'm not doing this

20:53

the right way, it's going to cause

20:55

more confusion and be a

20:57

waste of time. And those

20:59

meetings are really expensive. So

21:02

I think that's part of it

21:04

is it's my job to bring clarity to

21:06

chaos, not create the chaos. And so I

21:09

really worry about that. And I think the other

21:11

thing is a little bit what we talked about

21:14

before. I feel like I'm at the 1,000

21:17

foot view and I am working with people that have the

21:19

10,000 foot view. So my perspective

21:21

that I'm going to bring to that group.

21:25

Is going to be missing a

21:27

lot of factors or what matters

21:30

to them because I did test this

21:32

one time I was messaging

21:34

an executive and I said, here's

21:37

where I think there is confusion.

21:40

I think we should just focus on A and

21:43

the response was, well, actually, no, we should focus on

21:45

B, which is fine. At least I knew. And

21:47

then I can go focus on B. So

21:50

my gauge of, OK,

21:52

what I think would be the

21:54

way forward or my perspective was not

21:56

lining up with that person's perspective in

21:58

that one. instance.

22:01

So I think that's what I worry about too. Am

22:03

I going to cause more chaos if

22:05

I bring my neutral perspective and

22:08

is my neutral perspective just going to be

22:10

so off base from how they're thinking about

22:12

things that they're going to be like, okay, yes,

22:14

this is the A to B person. She's bringing

22:16

the A to B perspective and we're

22:19

seeing things from a whole other level and

22:21

talking about them in this whole other language that yeah,

22:23

she doesn't get it. When

22:29

our coaching meeting kicked off, Rachel initially

22:31

had trouble articulating the exact problem

22:33

she was facing. She knew

22:35

that she'd gotten a lot of great opportunities so

22:38

far in her career, but wanted to make sure

22:40

she was making the right moves to continue to

22:42

advance. The first thing I

22:44

aimed to sort out was whether there was external

22:46

evidence that she might not be making the right

22:48

moves or whether she was the only

22:50

one who thought so. But she actually

22:52

had some examples of interactions that made her feel like

22:55

she might not quite be hitting the nail on the

22:57

head. And those examples

22:59

centered around communication and interaction with

23:01

senior leaders. So that's where

23:03

we dug in, trying to get a

23:06

better sense of both how and what

23:08

she wanted to communicate better. There

23:11

we hit on something interesting. The

23:14

idea that she was trying to remain

23:16

neutral with pieces of information, which actually

23:18

ran contrary to situations where she did

23:20

feel like she was adding value. Those

23:23

times when she took a perspective and

23:25

had conviction behind that point of view. I

23:28

was curious to explore with Rachel why she

23:30

felt the need to back away from her

23:32

perspective when it came to interactions with senior

23:34

leadership. So we went there next. Now

23:40

what difference would it have made if that

23:42

other person had been a peer or somebody

23:45

more junior than you than

23:48

if it had been a senior executive? That's

23:51

a great question. I think if it had been

23:53

a peer, I think

23:55

I probably would have tried

23:58

to continue the conversation. and

24:00

okay, we have different perspectives,

24:03

let's hash it out a little more because

24:06

I wanna understand why you have a

24:08

different perspective. I want you to understand

24:10

why this is my perspective. I shared

24:13

the perspective, I can say more about

24:15

why. So I think I would be

24:18

wanting to engage a

24:20

little further in that conversation

24:22

and just hash that out. I think

24:25

if it was someone more junior

24:28

than me, I think the

24:30

same thing, I would really wanna understand why

24:33

that is their perspective and maybe I'm

24:35

missing something or maybe they're missing something.

24:37

Maybe in that case, I have more

24:40

information that they don't have that's leading

24:42

them to have that

24:44

perspective. I think specifically

24:46

when it's executives or

24:48

people that are more senior than me, my

24:51

response was like, okay, great, thanks. I'll

24:53

just go do that rather than

24:56

taking that any further. And

24:59

what holds you back from taking it any

25:01

further with somebody who's

25:03

more senior than you? I

25:06

don't think I have a good answer or

25:08

reason for that. I think maybe

25:10

it's scary, maybe I don't

25:12

wanna waste that person's time.

25:16

Yeah, probably those, like

25:18

it's scary to engage in that

25:20

conversation further because I

25:22

don't know that person well

25:24

enough to really know how that's gonna go or

25:27

if they're willing to engage in that. And

25:30

I think I worry

25:33

about wasting their time or

25:35

taking their time. Okay,

25:38

so if you were, let's just

25:40

go down both those paths, okay? Cause I kinda

25:42

wanna unravel this a little bit. If

25:45

you were wasting their time, what do you think would happen?

25:49

How would you know? They would either

25:51

not respond to

25:53

my message, they

25:56

could maybe just write it off

25:59

and... Say, hey, like I

26:01

need you to go figure this out somewhere

26:04

else. I

26:06

don't know. I feel like that's where I worry.

26:08

They would be like, okay, if this

26:10

person doesn't get it, I don't want it. Like

26:13

I have so many other things to do than spend

26:15

my time unraveling this with

26:18

this person. Okay. So

26:21

they would shut it down, which would basically leave

26:23

you where you already are. Yes. Okay.

26:27

Gotcha. Has that happened, by the

26:29

way? No, it has not happened. And

26:31

I think the other thing that

26:34

I worry about there is they could shut

26:36

it down and I'm right back where I am, but

26:38

does their perception of me or my

26:40

reputation change as a result of that?

26:43

I think is the worry. So I

26:45

would be back where I am in terms of

26:47

the information that I have to work with, but

26:50

then I worry they're forming their

26:52

perception of me too. So they

26:55

might, you know. Yeah. But

26:57

you know, Rachel, guess what? The perception

26:59

is forming one way or the other. You're

27:03

right. The

27:06

perception does not discriminate. It's

27:08

always happening. You're right. That's a

27:10

good point. Okay. So one case

27:13

is they could say, oh my gosh, or you could

27:15

say, oh my God, you know, I'm wasting their time

27:17

and they're like, hey, listen, and

27:19

we have five more minutes and that's

27:22

all I can. Okay. Great.

27:24

I got you. I'm off the phone. The

27:26

other thing is that what was the other part that

27:29

was scary to you? One

27:31

was that you waste your time and the other part,

27:33

what was scary about? I think it's like, because I

27:35

don't know them

27:37

that well, I haven't worked with

27:39

them that extensively. So I don't,

27:41

I don't really know where that

27:44

conversation is going to go. And

27:46

so it's scary. Like I'm talking to

27:48

someone who is much more senior than

27:50

me and I don't know how they

27:53

operate, but their beliefs are

27:56

what they care about at the moment. Like

27:58

it's just, I have no information. And so

28:01

it's scary to forge into that

28:03

territory with things I'm trying to bring clarity

28:05

on and just not really having a sense

28:07

of how to bring that forward or what's

28:09

going to happen once I do. Right.

28:12

So because you don't know them, if you

28:14

brought it forward, what could happen? I

28:17

mean, I think it is just the perception

28:20

thing. Like I'm either bringing

28:22

them something that they don't care

28:25

about or is not resonating with them

28:27

or maybe it's even annoying them. I

28:30

think sometimes that has happened

28:32

where if I'm bringing something, this

28:34

happened actually with one executive where

28:37

I brought something forward because I

28:39

thought we needed some alignment on something

28:41

and the response was, no, we've already talked

28:43

about this, we're already aligned. So

28:45

that feels bad to me when that happens.

28:48

Like, oh, shoot. Okay. I

28:50

didn't bring the right thing or I shouldn't have brought

28:52

that forward. They're annoyed now that

28:54

I did. How do you know they were annoyed?

28:57

I think the tone and

29:01

afterwards that I talked to

29:04

someone who I do know and understands

29:06

that space a little bit better and

29:08

they said, oh yeah, they hate to

29:10

hear that they're not aligned with

29:12

this other person. I understand. Okay.

29:15

So there is a part around

29:17

being careful of holding

29:20

back so much from

29:22

engaging with these folks that

29:26

you then are not seeking

29:28

to understand what they

29:30

care about. Because on the one hand, you're like,

29:33

I don't want to say anything because I don't really

29:35

know what they care about. And

29:38

on the other hand, you're saying, well, I don't want

29:40

to ask the questions because

29:43

even though it would help me understand what they care about,

29:45

I don't want to ask the questions so that I can

29:48

hear what they care about. Right.

29:51

Okay. On either side of those, as

29:53

I said before, a perception is being,

29:55

you're sort of left in the same

29:57

place. Right. You still don't know what they

29:59

care about. Right. I still don't know. Yeah. I

30:02

kind of want to go back to when you

30:04

said, you know, I don't have a good judgment

30:07

yet. I don't have judgment on

30:11

when I feel convicted, you know, when I

30:13

have a strong perspective. And as a result,

30:15

when I start hearing all these other perspectives,

30:19

it makes me like,

30:22

even more uncertain. Right, right. And

30:24

that's like a tree, right? Like, you

30:27

know, when it's windy outside, a

30:30

tree will be as strong as its

30:32

roots. You

30:34

know, what is the foundation of

30:37

that tree? You know, if the roots are weak,

30:39

the part that we don't see, which

30:42

is analogous to your inner conviction

30:45

on something, the

30:47

weaker they are, those roots, the

30:49

more that tree is going to

30:51

like sway, you know, every which

30:53

way. Right. That's definitely how I

30:56

feel right now. It's like, I don't feel

30:58

like I'm rooted in

31:00

anything and I'm certainly not rooted

31:02

in anything I have conviction

31:05

around. And so I'm really

31:08

just being very

31:10

influenced by everyone around me and

31:13

it's confusing. And then I can't make sense

31:15

of that. I don't have a perspective. So

31:17

then I'm bringing forward something that

31:20

I think is just then ultimately not helpful

31:23

for anyone. Yes.

31:26

And if we continue

31:28

with sort of that visual,

31:30

yeah, I don't know, maybe it does exist. I've

31:33

never seen it. I've never seen a tree that's so

31:35

rigid in its roots

31:37

where the roots are so

31:39

strong that when the wind blows, it

31:41

doesn't move. Right, right. So it's exactly

31:43

that's exactly how I feel

31:45

is like, when am I

31:48

being flexible and when

31:50

am I being rooted in my

31:52

conviction? And I feel like

31:54

I'm not doing a good job of making

31:56

the decisions because the times when

31:59

I had conviction, I said, But I thought, okay,

32:01

someone else had a different perspective and then

32:03

when I don't bring my perspective, things devolve

32:05

because there's no perspective brought to the table.

32:08

So I feel like I don't have the

32:11

right judgment built up about when

32:13

am I putting my perspective forward with conviction?

32:16

When am I letting myself blow in

32:18

the wind and kind of like understand what

32:20

everyone else is doing and maybe bringing

32:23

some of that to the table. And

32:25

have you had moments, maybe not

32:27

in this role, but in the past where you felt

32:29

that you were able to do both, that you were

32:31

able to bring a point of

32:33

view, conviction and be flexible

32:37

to what else was going on in

32:39

the room and what stakeholders thought and

32:41

where stakeholders agendas were? I

32:43

think I've definitely had

32:45

that before. I think it happens when

32:48

I have an idea of

32:50

what my North Star is in that situation.

32:54

And so then I can build

32:56

everything around that. Like

32:59

well, this is the North Star and this is my

33:01

perspective and this is everything else I'm hearing.

33:04

Okay, I can do my job

33:06

now and bring all of that

33:09

together and package it up in

33:11

service of that, whatever

33:13

that is. It could be a

33:15

meeting goal, a company goal, like someone

33:17

on my team, a conversation with them. I

33:21

feel like I definitely am able to do

33:23

that when I know what I'm organizing

33:26

that information around. And

33:28

how were you able to figure out your

33:30

North Star in the past when you did

33:33

have it? I think in

33:35

some cases it felt a little more

33:38

obvious to me or I had information

33:41

signal to point in that direction.

33:43

For example, when I first inherited

33:46

the broader team, I

33:49

think it was clear something was not working

33:51

there. And so when I

33:53

inherited the team,

33:55

I knew exactly, like that's the

33:57

thing I need to go to. need

34:00

to go listen to everyone. I need to go

34:03

acknowledge the things that have

34:05

been happening. So I think

34:08

I had something to anchor to and I

34:10

knew that that's what I had to bring

34:12

to every conversation I was having with the

34:14

team that needed to be at the

34:18

forefront and everything I was doing and hearing

34:20

and saying kind of had to be getting

34:22

everyone comfortable with, I hear you, I understand

34:24

what happened, we're going to make this better

34:27

and I'm just listening. And then I got

34:29

feedback that people really appreciated that. So

34:31

I think I've had signal from

34:34

somewhere whether someone's telling me something

34:36

or there's actual information to point

34:38

to, like that was a

34:40

very obvious one. But you

34:42

got that validation after you decided this is

34:44

it, this is what I'm going to place

34:46

my bet on and then I'm going to go out

34:48

and do it because I believe this is what

34:51

needs to happen. And then you

34:53

got positive affirmation that

34:55

like, we're so glad you did that.

34:58

And in this situation, you

35:00

feel like you have not

35:03

been able to articulate what that North

35:05

Star is. And

35:07

as a result, what are you expecting

35:09

back from people? I

35:11

don't know that I am expecting anything

35:15

back. I think I'm expecting

35:18

myself at this stage

35:20

to be able to

35:22

define what that North Star is.

35:25

Like I should be able to do that, someone at

35:27

this level should be able to do that.

35:30

And I feel like I haven't done it in

35:32

this context I've been in. And

35:35

have you explored coming

35:37

up with hypotheses

35:40

of what that North Star

35:42

could be and testing it out

35:45

with others? I have

35:47

not. No. I have

35:49

basically been procrastinating and

35:52

ignoring because I don't know. And I don't know.

35:54

It's interesting to think about it as could I

35:56

come up with hypotheses

35:58

because I I think in my

36:00

head it was like, there's got to be

36:02

the one North star. It's

36:05

there and I just need to figure out what

36:07

it is or define it myself and it's this

36:09

one thing and it's right or wrong. And

36:12

so I think it's helpful now that

36:14

you're saying that to think about that as like, well,

36:17

like I've almost even just avoided writing

36:19

anything down because I'm like, I just,

36:21

I don't know what it is. I don't know what

36:23

to write down, but I think thinking about it as

36:26

hypotheses, like what are the various,

36:28

there could be more than one

36:30

thing to focus on and what

36:34

would even be my initial set of ideas

36:37

around what that would be. I mean, I haven't, yeah,

36:39

I haven't even done that step. Yeah.

36:42

And understandably so, right? Sometimes we think

36:44

if I write it down, it means

36:46

it's permanent in the book of life

36:48

forever there. If

36:53

I write it in my, you know, when I was

36:55

small, when I was younger, I should say, not know. So

36:58

I had a diary and I would like literally it

37:00

would just stay empty because I was like,

37:02

if I write it down, then

37:05

it means it's in through and forever there.

37:08

Yes, it feels very permanent. And

37:10

then I am very much an

37:12

overthinker and a little bit of

37:15

a perfectionist. So if I'm going to write

37:17

it down, it's going to be permanent. It's got to

37:19

be perfect and it's got to be the thing. And

37:22

so, well, I don't know yet, so I better not write it down yet.

37:25

Yeah. And there's this beautiful

37:27

thing called pencils

37:32

where we can write any writing and

37:35

then this other beautiful thing called delete

37:38

on our laptops. Yes. And

37:42

So there's a bit of taking it lightly. And

37:44

I Love the fact that you're thinking about it,

37:46

you know, as a North star, because I don't

37:48

know if you've ever had that experience, but I

37:50

have where, you know, you go out and you

37:52

look up and particularly, you're with other people, which

37:54

you are too. And You look up and you're

37:56

like, oh my God, there's the North, there's the

37:58

there's Venus, right? It or

38:00

you're like oh there's the Big Dipper there.

38:02

So this little different of people like way

38:04

or what, know and it takes a while

38:07

and they're like know, it's a moment there,

38:09

then the North Star or that's the in

38:11

as you're like know and then you'd the

38:13

be it and then eventually. Everybody

38:15

starts seeing at the same way

38:17

and I yeah, that's kind of

38:19

when you're experiencing except that you're

38:22

not pointing out with the North

38:24

Stars, you're sort of waiting for.

38:26

It. To just magically appear and

38:29

other people to say oh,

38:31

we'll see it You know

38:33

Rachel There it is. Go

38:35

Go forth, A hundred percent.

38:37

This is a really good analogy for this

38:39

because I think the other thing I'm doing

38:41

is because I'm not pointing out where it

38:43

as. or maybe I can't even see. I

38:45

don't know. So I am looking at the

38:47

people around me. Okay, this person thinks it's

38:49

fair. That person thinks it's fair, that. Okay,

38:51

Well, you also Okay, so I'm just out

38:53

of. Yes, It's it's all

38:55

those places in must be there Break it

38:58

must be somewhere in there, right? And I'll

39:00

just share what they say because that's what

39:02

they're saying and I don't see it so

39:04

I don't have a way to. Get.

39:07

Every one aligned so I will to share

39:09

what they all think which is all very

39:12

different and then how can anyone move forward

39:14

if I'm just saying. Well. Person

39:16

A thing Susteren person be thinks of second person

39:18

see things that are now what do we do?

39:20

I mean the yeah, that's helpful. right?

39:23

An Endless Since It's an and in

39:25

no way am I saying. Where are

39:27

we saying that? Pay Whatever you think,

39:29

Rachel, That's what it is. you know

39:31

and go for it because that would

39:33

be the rigid tree Rainham. What we're

39:35

saying is. I. Think in the

39:38

past what's happened in the inflection point

39:40

that you are on your leadership pass

39:42

in your career. I think in the

39:44

past. You. Could create your

39:46

North Star based on what you heard

39:49

from others ring. oh that's what they're

39:51

saying. This is how they're feeling. I

39:53

can make meaning out of this vast

39:55

going to become my goal and I

39:57

know what to do to move it.

40:00

forward. And I think the

40:02

difference that's happening a bit of here,

40:04

which happens to a lot of leaders

40:06

at this inflection point, right, the value

40:08

creation, the value that you bring to

40:11

the table is not only being able

40:13

to hear what others have to say,

40:15

but being able to bring to the

40:17

table, here's my perspective, here's my point

40:19

of view. And do you take a

40:22

risk when you do that? Yes,

40:25

absolutely. But that's also where the juice

40:27

is. That's where the value is. The

40:29

value is in your interpretation of what's

40:31

happening, and being able to say, I'm

40:33

going to put a stake in the

40:35

ground. Here's what I think

40:37

the North Star is. Now let's open up. What

40:39

does everybody else think? Right? Yeah,

40:42

and let the wind begin. And

40:44

I'm willing to bend a little bit, right? I'm

40:46

willing to bend a lot even, but

40:48

I'm not going to break. So

40:51

what does that mean in

40:53

the context in practical, practical

40:55

terms? I do

40:57

believe that step one, before

40:59

you can start talking about

41:01

now, how do I language that

41:04

in a way that resonates? I

41:07

think you've got to come up with these

41:09

North Stars. Yeah. And I'm saying North Stars

41:11

because I think they're the hypotheticals for now.

41:13

Right, right. And you

41:17

can create a process out of it where

41:19

you're not doing it in isolation. Hey, I've

41:23

been around, I've been observing for two years. I

41:25

know I'm at this level. You think through things.

41:27

So you have been observing the

41:30

chess game. You haven't been

41:32

a bystander.

41:34

You've seen how it's being played. You

41:36

must have picked up some things over

41:38

the past two years, right, around what's

41:40

important. Yes. Okay. So based on what

41:42

I picked up, here's what I think

41:44

is important, or here's what I hear

41:46

or observe as being important. Here's what

41:48

I think is important. Here

41:50

is hypothetically what I think these

41:52

North Stars can be and

41:56

why they're important to me at the

41:58

level where I sit and also why

42:00

there is important to these folks at

42:02

the level where they sit. And

42:05

then let me go pick

42:07

a few senior level people,

42:09

one on one. Hey,

42:12

I'm really trying to articulate the goal

42:14

here. Here are a couple

42:17

of options. Here's what I think it could be, but

42:19

I want to get your reaction. This has been faked.

42:21

I want to get your reaction. Right.

42:25

A, tell me if you've done that already. And

42:28

B, if not,

42:30

how it sounds to you. I

42:33

have not done that. And it

42:35

sounds amazing because even as you're

42:38

talking through it, there's

42:41

three hypotheses in my

42:43

head. And I think

42:45

before, I didn't know

42:47

how to categorize them. So it was just

42:49

a lot of thoughts bouncing around in my

42:51

head. I didn't know which one was right.

42:53

So I'm not writing it down. I'm not

42:55

committing to it, but thinking

42:58

about them like

43:00

hypotheses, I'm like, great, there's

43:02

probably three or four at

43:05

least. I know what they are even bouncing

43:07

around in my head. I just didn't know

43:09

those were hypotheses I needed to go test.

43:12

So I haven't done that. And

43:14

I think the thing that

43:16

stood out to me about what you said when I am

43:19

having those conversations, which I have not

43:21

had, I have not pressure tested. My

43:24

hypotheses that I did not have

43:26

before. So

43:28

the thing that stood out to me when you said that

43:30

was, here's options.

43:32

Here's what I think. What

43:34

do you think? Because I think before I was

43:36

treating that as, well, I

43:39

know I should be bringing my perspective to the table,

43:41

so I'm going to say it like

43:44

I think this is the option. Which

43:47

then I think puts me in that

43:49

place of like, is there perception of me going

43:51

to change versus if I bring it,

43:53

these are options. This is what I think. What

43:55

do you think? This isn't baked for

43:57

me yet. I'm trying to pressure testing.

44:00

engage it, then that's

44:02

a much more open conversation.

44:04

And then if they don't agree

44:06

with my perspective, they're not

44:08

viewing that as like, wow, this person had a

44:10

lot of conviction about something that doesn't align with

44:12

me. This person has

44:15

ideas, they're willing to talk to me about it. I

44:17

can give my perspective and they can absorb

44:19

it. So I think that last piece of like, what

44:21

do you think about that? This isn't fully that I

44:24

wasn't doing that. I thought I had to just have

44:26

my perspective and have conviction. That was the thing

44:29

I was supposed to be doing. Yeah. I

44:31

think that there's a certain pace to it too.

44:33

I'm going back to you saying, I don't want

44:35

to waste people's time and create chaos in the

44:38

meeting. And I don't know

44:40

what these meetings are, but like, you

44:42

do want to be careful of sort of the

44:44

big reveal at the meetings, meaning you're

44:47

waiting for that one shot to say,

44:49

and here's my perspective.

44:52

So there's a bit of a

44:55

warm up in terms of

44:57

you've been around these senior people enough

44:59

now. I mean, I know some

45:01

of them are not completely known and you're not

45:03

a completely known entity to them, but

45:06

I'm curious around like, what have

45:08

you done to sort of identify

45:11

who are these critical senior stakeholders?

45:14

Am I spending a bit of time

45:16

with them outside of these big meetings

45:19

to understand them and so

45:21

that I can be in collaboration

45:23

with them in the way that

45:25

you just described? Yeah. So

45:28

that by the time I get to the big meetings, right?

45:31

Like I'm, you know, 80%

45:34

sure that what I'm sharing

45:36

has a certain level of

45:38

alignment. Yeah, that's a

45:41

great point. And I

45:43

think I'm not taking

45:45

advantage of like the kinds of

45:47

conversations you're saying because the couple

45:49

times where I have, you know,

45:51

I asked for feedback about the meeting, that

45:54

executive was like, let's jump on the phone. I'll

45:56

tell you what I thought. And

45:58

I think, okay. Okay, rather than doing

46:01

that after the meeting, I could

46:03

have reached out before and

46:05

just said, hey, here's what I'm

46:07

seeing. Here's my perspective of what we should

46:10

try to be doing. Is

46:12

that aligned with you? Is that what you're looking

46:14

for? So I think this is where I feel

46:16

like they've left the door open. They're willing to

46:19

so far talk to me about these

46:22

things in a couple, like probably three

46:24

instances that's happened where

46:27

I've actually had their

46:29

one-on-one time for a number of

46:31

minutes, but I wasn't using

46:33

that time properly or

46:35

effectively, I guess. So

46:39

to what extent have you

46:42

sat with these stakeholders

46:46

purely from the perspective of

46:49

learning what

46:51

is important to them at that

46:53

altitude level that they're at? Zero.

46:57

Okay. The time that I have

46:59

spent with them has been about a

47:01

very specific project

47:04

and the things happening

47:07

on that project. So

47:10

I mean, yes, I have spent

47:12

zero time trying to understand what

47:15

does it look like at 10,000 feet? What

47:17

else is up there? I'm engaging

47:19

with you at this thing that's happening here. What

47:22

else is going on over there at that

47:24

elevation? Right. And

47:27

so there's no way you

47:29

can even formulate your

47:31

own perspective that

47:34

reflects the context that

47:36

they're dealing with, the

47:39

issues they're facing, the

47:42

priorities they have, what's keeping

47:44

them up at night, the

47:46

pain points they're trying to solve. There's

47:49

no way you can solve issues at the 30,000 foot

47:51

level if you stay at the 10,000 foot

47:58

level. You've got to be careful. to meet

48:00

people where they are. And so what

48:03

does that require? It requires

48:06

you to actually go

48:08

where they are, particularly

48:11

if they're not coming to

48:13

where you are. Yes.

48:19

Yes, that's very true. And

48:21

I think I was

48:24

always approaching those relationships

48:26

as like, I need

48:29

to demonstrate value with

48:31

this thing that I'm working on,

48:33

this one thing. I need to

48:38

demonstrate value and make sure

48:40

everything's resonating with them. But

48:42

you're right, without the

48:44

other information or spending any amount of time,

48:46

and I don't have any reason to believe

48:48

they wouldn't give me that time if I

48:50

asked. That's exactly how I feel

48:52

like I'm flying in the dark then. I'm going

48:54

to take some very uninformed guesses

48:57

about what I think this might be,

48:59

and then it's not going to resonate.

49:05

Before we start putting together concrete action steps

49:07

for Rachel, I think it's important to point

49:09

out a couple of things we've discovered so

49:11

far. As we dug deeper into

49:13

the interactions that she'd had with senior leaders,

49:16

we unearthed that she often feels like she

49:18

isn't saying the right thing or

49:20

aligning herself in a way that works for them. This

49:23

is a common issue when someone heads up

49:25

the leadership ladder, because as

49:27

much as leadership is about knowing how to manage

49:29

your team and execute on task, it's

49:32

also about working with the leaders

49:34

around you and above you more

49:36

effectively. In our conversation, Rachel

49:38

realized that she doesn't always know where

49:40

her North Star is, and that changing

49:43

the way she engaged with senior leaders

49:45

might actually help point her in the

49:47

right direction. She can

49:49

only do that by being less hesitant, by

49:51

learning to speak the leadership language at her

49:54

organization, and by approaching issues

49:56

more from their vantage point. And

49:58

one way to learn about the leadership is to The advantage point

50:01

is by asking questions. Otherwise,

50:03

as she says, she'll be

50:05

flying around in the dark. Let's

50:08

get back into the conversation as we start

50:10

to think about next steps for Rachel. So

50:15

I think part of your assignment is

50:17

coming up with like, well, who are

50:19

the key people? What

50:22

they perceive and what

50:24

they think and what they're

50:26

doing matters. So the critical

50:28

stakeholders. And let's

50:31

not even think about it in terms

50:33

of a tactical deliverable. This is just

50:35

you getting context, getting a better appreciation

50:37

for what they are leading at

50:43

their altitude. So you're going to go up to

50:46

their altitude. I

50:48

remember I went on a trip where

50:50

we had to go up in altitude before we

50:52

could come back down in

50:55

order to adapt to the environment and

50:57

not suffer. And

51:01

so in preparation,

51:04

it was, well, what do

51:06

I need to know about that altitude? Let's

51:09

say you're up there with them. What

51:11

are the two or three questions that

51:13

you would want to ask that you think would be

51:16

helpful to you in not

51:18

only shaping these North stars, but

51:21

also so that when it's time

51:23

to communicate them and share them, you

51:25

can do it in a way that resonates with

51:29

them. OK, so I think it's

51:32

interesting because there's questions I want to ask

51:34

because I'm curious. And then what you asked

51:36

is what questions would be helpful to me.

51:39

So I think one

51:41

of the big ones that I

51:43

would want to ask is actually

51:46

pretty simple. Like, how do you

51:48

view my function and

51:50

my role? What

51:52

do you hope to get from our function? You've

51:54

got us involved. But I don't

51:57

actually know if they see us as

51:59

you. are the executors or you

52:02

are the strategic thinkers.

52:05

I would have to figure out maybe how to say that

52:07

more concisely. But how do they think about my

52:10

role? I think some of

52:12

the other ones would be

52:14

around, I don't know exactly what

52:16

question this would be, but like what does the

52:18

landscape look like for them? Like what are the

52:20

things that are top of mind for

52:23

them in general outside

52:25

of the context of this particular

52:28

project and what are

52:31

the things top of mind for them in

52:34

the context of the project? So I kind

52:36

of want to understand how

52:39

this fits into everything else they're

52:41

worried about or just

52:43

prioritizing or thinking about. And the questions I'd

52:45

like to ask that I don't know if

52:48

it would be appropriate to ask would sort

52:50

of be some question

52:52

around probing on the dynamics and

52:54

the relationships between those groups.

52:57

Because part of what I sense

53:00

and what I'm trying to navigate is

53:02

like how everyone perceives

53:04

each other and other teams,

53:07

but it gets a little bit into just the

53:10

politics of is there a

53:12

question I could ask to better understand how

53:15

they view these other people and teams

53:18

and like what's their perspective there?

53:21

Because occasionally if I pressure

53:24

test, well, I think this

53:26

person either thinks highly

53:28

or not so highly of

53:30

this other person. Like I kind of want

53:33

to know that so that

53:35

I can tailor things that are going to

53:37

resonate. So I hear

53:40

four different agenda items for

53:42

you, right? One is around

53:45

expectations. So what

53:48

do you expect of our

53:50

function and

53:52

my role regardless of who were to sit in that

53:54

role? What do you expect to

53:57

get from us? What

53:59

would you consider success? us in terms of what you get

54:01

from us. So that's one. The

54:04

second is around priorities. So what

54:06

are your priorities? What's

54:08

top of mind for you? What's keeping you up at night? Which

54:12

might be different than priorities, but hopefully they're the same

54:14

thing. I

54:16

think the third is you didn't name it in

54:18

this way, but it's, you know, what's their delta?

54:20

Like what's the difference that they're trying to make?

54:22

How do they define this? Where do they want

54:24

to be in six months, 12 months, 18 months,

54:27

right? So it's more the outcome of

54:29

those priorities. What are they on

54:31

the hook for? Right. And that in

54:34

particular is very important because

54:36

if you can't connect what you're doing to

54:40

what they're on the hook for, it's very

54:42

hard to influence. That's a

54:44

great point. And I think

54:47

I'd want to think about that also. And maybe

54:50

this is part of those conversations in testing

54:52

this. I have a hypothesis

54:54

about what they're on the hook for.

54:57

Like I know enough to make some

54:59

hypotheses or some guesses about

55:01

what they're on the hook for,

55:03

but I've never validated

55:06

that. So I don't

55:08

know if I'm speaking to what matters to

55:10

them or I'm speaking to what I'm guessing. Right.

55:13

I think you got to, you have a lot

55:16

of hypothesis validation. First you need to put

55:18

them down on paper. Then you need to either

55:20

go ask or validate. You choose what you

55:23

want to do. And then I think the fourth element we were kind

55:25

of going down, because I just want you to have sort of an

55:27

agenda going to these meetings

55:30

is what are the dynamics? And

55:32

I understand your hesitation around being

55:34

like, do you have a problem with these people?

55:36

Who are your problem people? We don't want to

55:39

do that just yet. But maybe

55:41

there's a question around what

55:43

can you share with me about the dynamics that

55:47

would help me help you? Is there

55:49

anything I should be aware of? But

55:52

a lot of that is going to be the reading between the

55:54

lines. And as you get to

55:56

know other people who might have

55:58

to deal with the same dynamic. folks, just

56:00

learning from them and being like, Hey, I'm about to go

56:02

into these meetings with these two folks. What should I know?

56:05

Right. And I haven't been seeking that

56:08

help either. I feel like I've just

56:10

sort of been trying to figure

56:13

it out myself.

56:15

So I do think there's people I can talk

56:17

to like, okay, what do you think the dynamics

56:19

are? And again, I don't, this

56:21

is where I will very much keep

56:24

the tree analogy in mind. I don't

56:26

have to take their view of the

56:28

dynamics, you know, as like

56:30

the rigid thing I have to stick with,

56:33

but it can form my own perspective

56:35

of the dynamic. And then I

56:37

can actually go validate that with

56:39

the people directly. And

56:42

that's where the discerning, right? Like, is that going to

56:44

send them off? Or right? How do

56:46

I play it? And I didn't tell you, right?

56:48

Like, I don't know who these people are. But

56:50

certainly having that, you said, you know who you

56:52

could ask, you're new

56:54

at this. Why are you thinking

56:56

you need to figure it out all on your

56:59

own? I think

57:01

it's just because things get busy and

57:03

I'm scattered, you know, so I just

57:05

never even took the time to stop

57:08

and come up with this plan

57:10

and approach of how to navigate

57:13

this space. It was just

57:15

sort of, I will try random

57:17

things. I'm sort of paying attention

57:20

to like the responses and the

57:22

signals, but I'm not really

57:24

processing or organizing or diagnosing anything.

57:27

You know, I just feel like

57:29

I've been putting one step in

57:31

front of the other and doing stuff,

57:34

but not in any kind of... And,

57:38

you know, we all get into that.

57:40

So you've spent some time just throwing

57:43

stuff against the wall and

57:45

hoping that a beautiful painting

57:47

comes up. And now

57:49

you're going to step back and say,

57:52

but actually, what's the painting I'm actually

57:54

trying to create? Yes,

57:57

I've gotten some inspiration from that, but now I'm

57:59

going to... to figure out what's the painting I'm actually

58:01

trying to create and what are the

58:03

conversations I need to have to create. Yes. That

58:06

painting. And let me go test

58:08

out if anybody else likes that painting. Right? Because

58:11

I wanted to sit in the main hall versus

58:13

in the basement. Yes, I do not want to

58:15

be relegated to the basement. That's exactly. That's the

58:18

A to B place that I do

58:20

not want to be there. Okay. So

58:23

this is all about raising your

58:25

game and knowing

58:27

these tweaks that you need to make and

58:29

that you're still in learning mode on being

58:31

able to operate at this different altitude. So

58:35

tell me, because I think you were also

58:37

very tackle, like I haven't taken the time.

58:39

So I want to hear what

58:41

are the one

58:43

or two takeaways

58:45

that you have from this conversation that are

58:48

going to make a difference in terms of

58:50

how you spend your time in the

58:52

very near term. Yeah,

58:55

that's a great question. And like

58:57

I know exactly what it is.

58:59

I think part of why I haven't

59:01

taken the time is because I didn't

59:03

know what I was taking the time

59:05

for. So I

59:07

have no issue blocking off time on my calendar,

59:10

but I didn't know what I was going to

59:12

do with that time. So I think now I

59:15

have much more concrete things,

59:17

right? I know. Okay. Now

59:20

I can clear the time because I know what I'm going to do with it. And I think the

59:23

two things that

59:25

stood out the most

59:27

to me are one, really

59:30

articulating my hypotheses for my

59:33

North Star. I

59:35

feel like I can't, I'm

59:38

not going to be able to make progress in

59:40

the ways I want to and build the conviction

59:42

that I want and

59:44

build my perspective. If I don't

59:46

have those North Stars, like I

59:50

need that to kind of anchor around.

59:52

Right now I have no anchor. So

59:54

I think writing down those hypotheses,

59:58

having a perspective about it and the validating

1:00:02

with others is a big one.

1:00:04

The second one is

1:00:06

how I am leveraging

1:00:09

my time that these

1:00:12

executives and senior leaders are giving me and

1:00:15

being more purposeful with those interactions.

1:00:17

When am I talking to them? What

1:00:19

am I talking to them about? I

1:00:22

was not really being purposeful with that. I

1:00:24

think I was again just letting things happen

1:00:26

or sharing what I thought in the moment,

1:00:28

thinking that might be helpful. I think definitely

1:00:30

the star analogy is really

1:00:33

working for me. Everyone's pointing at a

1:00:35

different part of the sky. I don't

1:00:37

even know where I'm

1:00:39

looking. That I

1:00:42

think really is resonating and it's going to

1:00:44

help me just use

1:00:46

that to gauge where I am. Going

1:00:48

into this next meeting or this next

1:00:51

interaction, where is everyone looking?

1:00:53

Do I know where I'm looking? Am

1:00:55

I having the conversations to

1:00:57

work through those things? Are we all pointing

1:00:59

to the same thing? If not, then at

1:01:01

least I know that and that's what we

1:01:03

can talk about. That all really

1:01:06

resonated and now I can go carve out the time

1:01:08

to really think about that,

1:01:10

come up with my questions, figure

1:01:12

out when the right time to talk to

1:01:14

those folks is going to be. Then I'm

1:01:17

in a place of being

1:01:19

proactive. When are those conversations going

1:01:21

to happen? Is there an

1:01:23

opportunity where that's going to come up in the next

1:01:25

couple weeks or not? Then now

1:01:27

I feel like I'm getting prepared rather

1:01:30

than just letting things happen

1:01:32

around me and react to them. Awesome.

1:01:35

I'm curious, in one word, how

1:01:37

did you feel at the beginning

1:01:39

of our conversation and how

1:01:42

do you feel now? At

1:01:44

the beginning of the conversation, I felt very

1:01:48

scattered. I

1:01:51

really didn't even know exactly what

1:01:54

I was going to need to talk about. I

1:01:56

just knew I needed something. I felt very scattered.

1:01:58

I think... after

1:02:01

this conversation, I feel like

1:02:03

I have, like

1:02:07

the word that's coming to mind is clarity.

1:02:10

I don't have everything figured out yet, but

1:02:12

at least I know what I need to

1:02:14

figure out. And I have some

1:02:16

concrete steps I can take to do

1:02:18

that. So I feel like I have clarity on what I

1:02:20

need to do next. And before I really

1:02:22

just was gonna just go into

1:02:25

another day of meetings without. I get

1:02:27

it. You

1:02:30

know how I feel? I

1:02:32

feel like I'm never gonna be able

1:02:34

to look up at a starry night

1:02:36

again without thinking about Rachel. I'm

1:02:42

gonna be looking for that North star and wondering,

1:02:45

did she find her? Did she find it? Which

1:02:47

I convinced you, you will, and you are. So

1:02:49

thank you, thank you so much. Thank

1:02:52

you so much. When

1:02:56

we started the coaching session, Rachel wanted to

1:02:58

make sure she was leveling up her leadership

1:03:01

and demonstrating that to those more senior at

1:03:03

her organization. But she

1:03:05

wasn't really sure where to start. So we began

1:03:07

with gathering examples of what was making her feel

1:03:09

that way. From there, we

1:03:11

were able to think through specific ways she

1:03:14

was approaching communication with senior leaders and

1:03:16

maybe where some of her gaps were. What

1:03:19

had made her successful previously was when

1:03:21

she felt she had stronger conviction. But

1:03:24

in some of her more recent interactions

1:03:26

with senior leaders, she wasn't so unwavering.

1:03:29

A key for Rachel to better understand the

1:03:31

leadership perspective at her company was to

1:03:33

ask more questions about

1:03:35

expectations, priorities, desired outcomes,

1:03:38

and dynamics. Understanding

1:03:41

those things about her senior leaders will

1:03:43

help Rachel get herself to that next

1:03:45

level. That's

1:03:50

it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time, this is the

1:03:52

part where I'm just trying to

1:03:54

navigate it, I'm content in my, I like my

1:03:56

role, I love the people. At

1:04:00

the same time, there's that, is

1:04:02

this it? Is this all for me? I

1:04:05

can feel there's more. I'm

1:04:08

wanting to take that next step, whether it's

1:04:10

within my organization or outside. And

1:04:13

I think I just want to be more secure

1:04:15

in what that next step should be. I

1:04:19

have a really important ask of you. If

1:04:22

you love the coaching conversations on Coaching Real

1:04:24

Leaders, it would mean the world to me

1:04:26

if you could head over to Apple, Spotify,

1:04:28

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1:04:31

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1:04:33

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1:04:36

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1:04:39

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1:04:43

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1:04:51

You can also connect with me on LinkedIn

1:04:53

at Muriel Wilkins. Thanks

1:04:55

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1:04:58

editor, Nick Krynko, music composer,

1:05:00

Brian Campbell, my assistant, Emily Sofa,

1:05:02

and the entire team at HBR.

1:05:05

Much gratitude to the leaders who join me

1:05:07

in these coaching conversations and to you, our

1:05:10

listeners, who share in their journeys. If

1:05:13

you're dealing with a leadership challenge, I'd love to

1:05:15

hear from you and possibly have you on the

1:05:17

show. Apply at

1:05:19

coachingrealleaders.com. From

1:05:21

HBR Podcast Network, I'm Muriel

1:05:24

Wilkins. Until next time, be

1:05:26

well.