0:07

Welcome back to the Coffee and Bible

0:09

Time podcast . For those that

0:11

may be listening for the first time , our podcast

0:13

is an offshoot from our main platform

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, YouTube . Our channel is called Coffee

0:18

and Bible Time , where our goal is

0:20

to help people delight in God's

0:22

Word and thrive in Christian

0:24

living . We also have a website

0:27

and storefront with Bible studies , prayer

0:29

journals , courses and more . I'm

0:32

Mentor M ama , and today we're going

0:34

to be talking about encouraging

0:36

people to stick with the church through

0:38

hard and hurtful seasons

0:41

, and I know what you're thinking

0:43

, but I really want to acknowledge at first

0:45

that church hurt is real

0:48

. It happens every day

0:50

. Unfortunately , we've seen

0:53

the effects , with church membership

0:55

being down and church leaders

0:57

leaving the church . But

1:00

I want to propose to you what if God

1:03

is using this season of

1:05

hurt to mature you

1:07

, to help you grow in

1:09

your faith and strengthen your spiritual

1:12

walk , because along

1:14

with hurt also comes hope and

1:16

healing . Our church

1:18

family , just like any family , experiences

1:21

times of hurt within the body . But

1:24

today we're going to examine

1:26

how we can question

1:29

behaviors and beliefs

1:31

without quitting Jesus

1:33

and detaching ourselves from

1:35

the family of God . Our

1:37

guest today , Natalie Runion , experienced

1:40

a time when she was ready to walk

1:42

away from the church after being hurt to

1:45

the point where she actually buried

1:47

her dream of pursuing Christian

1:49

ministry . But thankfully

1:52

God wasn't through with her , because

1:54

she is here today to share

1:56

with us how to pursue love

1:58

and forgiveness during the time

2:00

of hurt and not abandon

2:02

our faith , but endure

2:05

and fight the good fight to

2:07

get to the side of healing . Natalie

2:10

Runion is an author , speaker

2:12

, worship leader , songwriter and

2:14

the founder of Raised to Stay

2:17

, a ministry for those in the church

2:19

who are finding their own healing

2:21

, calling and voice in church

2:23

leadership . Natalie and

2:25

Tony Runion live with their daughters in

2:27

Colorado Springs and they attend

2:30

New Life Church , where Natalie recently

2:32

served as a pastor . Natalie

2:34

is the host of the Raised to Stay

2:36

podcast and the author

2:38

of her recently published book

2:40

titled Raised to Stay

2:43

Persevering in Ministry when

2:45

you have a million reasons to walk

2:47

away . Please welcome Natalie .

2:51

Hey there , it's so good to be with you guys .

2:53

You know , Natalie , I'm so

2:56

encouraged by

2:58

your authenticity and

3:00

your willingness to write

3:02

down your experience

3:05

, to share with others and really

3:07

help people navigate this

3:10

type of a situation where they've

3:13

incurred hurt in the church . So

3:15

why don't we just start out by you telling

3:17

us your story ?

3:20

Well , I grew up in a pastor's home , grew up

3:22

in the church . I mean so much so that we lived in

3:24

the parsonage . If you don't know what a parsonage is

3:26

, it's a house the pastors live in

3:28

on the church property . And that

3:30

was our life . Our entire

3:32

existence was all focused

3:34

around what the church was doing and camp

3:36

meetings , revivals , youth camp and it

3:39

was such a family

3:41

that it became almost

3:43

more like we saw those people more than we saw

3:45

our actual biological family , and

3:47

I loved them . I loved the church . I loved

3:50

everything about being part of the church

3:52

and I did . I wanted to go into full-time

3:54

ministry . It was my dream to go to a

3:56

Christian college and be a youth

3:58

pastor or do something in the arts

4:00

with church . And then my senior year of high

4:02

school , we walked out a pretty formative

4:05

experience where one Sunday we

4:07

showed up , walked over to church just like

4:09

we did every single Sunday , and we were told

4:11

it's your last Sunday . You got to pack it up and go

4:13

and there was really no explanation

4:16

, there was no closure

4:18

, it was just pack your house and leave . And

4:21

I remember you know us driving

4:23

to this family's home that was

4:25

allowing us to live in this

4:27

apartment over a bar and they had on

4:29

the property and just feeling like

4:31

David running from Saul , like the very

4:33

people who are supposed to come to me and protect me

4:35

and teach me have betrayed me . How

4:37

do you reconcile that , at 18 years old

4:40

, when you have done nothing

4:42

but obey God and

4:44

love his people ? And

4:46

it was in that season I chose not to go to a Christian

4:48

college and I ended up going to a public university

4:51

, and at that public university

4:53

I wrestled with my faith for the first time

4:55

, and it wasn't a

4:57

rebellion , it was more of a detangling

5:00

from some of the things that I had

5:02

learned growing up that were placed on me

5:04

by people about a Jesus that

5:06

maybe wasn't the Jesus of the Bible . And so

5:08

that four to five years in

5:10

a public university , fighting for my faith

5:13

, wrestling with God , is

5:15

really what formed a lot

5:17

of my view of

5:19

God and a new view of his church

5:22

, as I realized that I did love him and

5:24

I did love the church . But

5:26

there was going to have to be a significant amount

5:28

of healing before I would ever choose to step

5:30

back into full-time ministry .

5:33

That must have been just such an incredibly

5:36

difficult time , especially being

5:38

so young , at such an impressionable

5:41

time in your life . You know you

5:43

described it as just you felt

5:45

shattered , and one thing

5:48

I thought that you said was so interesting

5:50

was that it's

5:52

okay to you

5:54

know when you're experiencing this wandering

5:57

, it can actually

5:59

be a time when you want to

6:01

be heard , validated , understood

6:03

, and how does that

6:05

help ? Tell us a little bit more about what

6:08

you ? You met by this wandering phase

6:10

.

6:12

Well , I think a lot of us feel alone . We

6:14

see other Christians , especially now on social

6:16

media Thank God , at the time there was no social

6:18

media but we see other people walking

6:20

out these perfected journeys that appears

6:23

like on social media , and

6:25

we can feel like we're the only one who

6:27

could be possibly experiencing anything

6:29

like this . And so when we find people

6:31

who are willing to listen to our stories , empathize

6:34

with us , but not let us stay wounded

6:36

, not let us stay hurt , but hear

6:38

us validate it . Like gosh , I've been

6:41

there too , but let me talk to

6:43

you about how the Lord brought me out of it

6:45

. There was just this hope that

6:47

came from people listening

6:49

to me and not just gaslighting

6:51

me and saying , oh , it wasn't like that , or you're not remembering

6:54

it right , but truly looking at me and saying

6:56

, hey , on behalf of the church , I'm sorry that

6:58

happened . And it took several conversations

7:01

with Christ followers and other

7:03

church people for me to first realize

7:05

I'm not alone and , second of all , to

7:07

understand that everybody's healing

7:10

journey isn't linear . We all are

7:12

going to go on these journeys with Jesus , but

7:14

he never leaves us in that , and so when

7:16

people are good listeners , that's a beautiful

7:18

ministry .

7:20

Yes , it's so , so important

7:22

. So many people want to talk and talk

7:25

and tell you things that maybe can make

7:27

things worse . Right , it is so important

7:29

to be a good listener . Well , you describe

7:32

this concept of deconstruction

7:35

, which has been fairly prominent

7:38

within Christianity in the last few years . Tell

7:40

us how in your

7:42

book that

7:45

that is part of the conversation

7:48

now .

7:48

Well , we can't deny that it's not a

7:50

hot topic If you're a Christian

7:53

, if you're a pastor , if you're a church leader

7:55

, like that word . Deconstruction has

7:57

been used in many contexts

7:59

, and sometimes correctly and sometimes

8:01

incorrectly , but it's all about how

8:04

the person's using it . That helps us understand

8:06

their story . And so , for Raise to

8:08

Stay , the book , I wanted to validate the people

8:10

who were afraid

8:12

of that word , deconstruction , and help them

8:14

understand that deconstruction is not

8:17

deconversion , like just because somebody is

8:19

deconstructing their faith

8:21

doesn't mean they're walking away from Jesus . It

8:23

could just mean that they're detangling

8:25

from some religion that isn't even

8:28

Jesus , that was put on them through a denomination

8:30

or through an organization

8:32

that wasn't our God at all

8:35

. And so I think it's really important

8:37

in this book for us to validate the

8:39

process by which somebody detangles

8:41

from some of that stuff but doesn't leave

8:44

them there . We don't stay in the rubble of deconstruction

8:46

. We start moving towards the hope

8:48

and the holy of rebuilding something

8:50

that is actually Jesus for

8:53

people to feel safe in .

8:56

You have a quote in this

8:58

area of the book that was

9:01

so encouraging to me , and not

9:03

just for hurting the church , but maybe

9:06

for people who have

9:09

children that maybe are wandering . You

9:11

said God does not give up

9:13

on us if we're gone a day

9:15

or 50 years . And

9:19

I just think that

9:21

sometimes we

9:23

tend to think , oh , the longer

9:26

either I stray away or

9:28

someone we know , the worse it's going to get , but

9:30

with my relationship

9:33

with God . But I think that what you said

9:35

there was so encouraging

9:37

.

9:39

I use the story of my daughter getting

9:41

lost in the mall as I'm talking about

9:43

that because , you know , at the time , my

9:45

youngest was only I think she was maybe

9:47

seven , six or seven . She's

9:49

itty bitty . We're in this huge city

9:51

, Colorado Springs , at this mall that is packed

9:54

that day because of events going on

9:56

, and I have never lost a child

9:58

before . I've never had that fear

10:00

grit me like that before , and

10:02

when my husband came running down the

10:05

hall of this mall and like where is

10:07

it , where's our kid ? And we couldn't find

10:09

her . The image of moms

10:12

who were all of this play area near

10:14

us , these moms jumping

10:17

up and running to us and being like what's

10:19

her name , what is she wearing , how

10:21

old is she , what color is her hair though

10:23

, the way these women just got up

10:25

and just went into action was

10:27

such a picture for me of heaven

10:30

, of how even the angels are scouring

10:32

, like you know , get , get them back . Like

10:34

, however long it takes , no matter

10:36

how many resources we need , we're going

10:39

to get this child back , and that's just how

10:41

I see God being with us , is

10:43

he's his eyes never leave us , but

10:45

he is always watching

10:47

and he is always in pursuit

10:50

, and , I said , nothing is stronger

10:52

than the power of a bunch of moms coming together

10:54

, other than the

10:57

love of Jesus , who doesn't give up on us

10:59

.

10:59

Yes , yes , I know , when I read that to

11:01

I I experienced

11:04

. You know something like that as well

11:06

, as a mom , and it does . It definitely

11:08

, definitely grips you for sure . Well

11:11

, can you tell us the difference

11:14

between church hurt and church

11:16

abuse , because I think people

11:18

might be , you know , wondering

11:20

what the difference is and how to tell the

11:22

difference .

11:24

I always start these conversations just by being

11:26

honest that I'm not a clinical counselor , I'm

11:28

not a psychologist , so obviously

11:31

I am not here to tell anybody that

11:33

their experience was not abused

11:36

. And so I just want to say that , first off , that

11:38

if you have been abused by a leader

11:40

, if you've been spiritually , sexually , physically

11:42

, emotionally abused by a leader

11:44

, first of all I believe you and

11:47

I would never say you weren't . I

11:50

do know it's happening , we know there

11:52

are wolves and sheeps clothing , and so

11:54

I just want you to hear this from me those listening

11:56

that I sit with you in the sorrow and

11:59

the pain of what it feels like to be abused

12:01

by a shepherd and it's not right

12:03

and it's never going to be okay , and

12:05

we will always fight for your health and your

12:07

safety in the church . I

12:09

want to preface that first . But when

12:12

I talk to people in the church

12:14

community who have been hurt by the church

12:16

, typically that hurt

12:18

is not anything that is causing

12:21

them psychological damage . It

12:24

is more of an offense . A

12:26

lot of times that festers

12:28

into more than

12:31

just an inconvenience or

12:33

something that made us uncomfortable . It becomes

12:36

something that is a relational hurt . It

12:38

is losing a job

12:40

, losing a position . It is , you

12:43

know , really losing people we loved , and

12:45

I think that's why it hurts , and I

12:47

think that anger is our secondary

12:50

emotion , because we're sad

12:52

we are frustrated

12:54

, we are confused

12:56

, and so , with church hurt , this

12:58

isn't anything that necessarily is going to

13:01

cause me long term

13:03

psychological damage . Hurt is more

13:06

going to be something that comes at

13:08

the hands of people who

13:10

I was in relationship with and

13:12

they betrayed my trust , they betrayed

13:14

my time or you

13:16

know , or worse . But I do think

13:18

that abuse that whole category

13:21

, is something where those offenders

13:23

, those who are abusing God's sheep

13:25

, need to go to prison . They need

13:27

to be taken off of positions of

13:29

the church . They should not be holding

13:31

high levels of office in the church , and

13:34

those who are saying they've been abused need

13:36

to be believed the first time . And it shouldn't

13:38

take , you know , several years

13:40

for there to be some sort of a third party investigation

13:43

. We just need to get the abusers out so

13:45

that people are safe . With hurt

13:47

, it takes longer , you know . Hurt is something

13:49

that can't be necessarily pinpointed . It's

13:51

something that might be , you know , very

13:54

subjective , and so it's

13:56

really hard to necessarily go to

13:58

our church leadership and say somebody

14:00

is hurting us , because it can

14:02

really depend on the relationship , on

14:05

the situation . But what we have to

14:07

take ownership of is are we

14:09

going to let that hurt turn

14:11

into offense or

14:13

are we going to let God heal

14:15

that hurt so that we can continue on mission

14:17

with what we're doing ? Hurt can be healed

14:20

easily enough to keep us on mission .

14:24

Abuse is something that takes much longer

14:26

and something that requires a

14:28

lot more , I believe , third-party

14:31

care on both sides yes

14:34

, I know , speaking

14:36

from my own experience

14:38

in the church and the church

14:40

that I was a member

14:42

of , had a

14:45

situation that was

14:48

very hurtful and I

14:51

think one thing that our church did really

14:53

well was have

14:55

some skilled I'm

14:59

not even sure like there's some kind of an organization

15:01

or something that really knows

15:03

how to handle these situations

15:06

and I think that

15:08

, at least for me , it helped . I don't know that

15:11

it helped everyone , but it's nice to

15:13

know that there are . I mean it's sad to know

15:15

that we have to have those right , but at the same

15:17

time , at least there are skilled

15:21

people that can help you walk through that

15:23

.

15:25

And I would say for church pastors or leaders

15:27

listening that there is probably

15:29

church hurt on your staff and you don't know

15:31

about it because it's not stuff that

15:33

your staff is going to be

15:35

running to you to talk about . What

15:37

they're doing is they're probably talking amongst

15:40

themselves . So these third parties

15:42

are more effective even than

15:44

doing like random or

15:46

anonymous surveys that go

15:48

out to your staff , because people are more

15:50

like to open up to a third party than

15:52

they are to tell the senior pastor

15:55

, who may or may not be healthy enough to

15:57

hear the information .

15:58

Yeah , absolutely . Well , how would you

16:01

tell someone when

16:03

to stay and persevere in

16:05

ministry or church and when

16:07

to leave ?

16:09

I wish there was a cookie cutter answer , because that's

16:11

the number one question that I get . Here's what

16:14

I always say . Number one you can't stay

16:16

where you're not safe . And so if they're in an environment

16:19

where you are not spiritually safe , emotionally

16:22

safe , physically safe , you can't stay

16:24

there . And God is not in heaven handing

16:27

out trophies for longevity . He's not up there , like

16:29

you know , a

16:31

well done , good and faithful servant . You stayed somewhere where you were being abused

16:33

, like . God is

16:35

not asking us to stay in abusive churches

16:37

, just like he and us . We wouldn't encourage

16:40

people to stay in abusive marriages . So

16:42

I think it's really important for us to be able to

16:45

have this conversation with each other and say no , if you're being

16:47

hurt , get out If you're being . Even if you're , you're not

16:49

being celebrated , even if you're somewhere where

16:52

people aren't nice and

16:55

there is no community . I mean , there's other

16:57

things that the church is also for , and community is

17:00

one of those , and mission work is another . And if you're

17:02

in a church that's not healthy spiritually , I

17:05

don't believe that God is asking us to stay

17:07

in dead soil . So I always say you have to know

17:09

the difference between

17:12

if you're safe or if you're just uncomfortable

17:14

, and I think a lot of us , when we

17:16

get on a church staff or we end up in a high

17:18

level volunteer position , we get uncomfortable right

17:21

Because people are hard . Ministry

17:23

is hard , and so we have to understand that hard is not

17:25

always wrong . Abuse

17:28

will always be wrong , but hard

17:30

can be holy , and so that's really for all of us . We

17:33

have to have a lot of wise counsel in our lives

17:35

. We need to have a lot of people who are speaking

17:38

into our ministries and into the

17:40

gifts that we have , so that on difficult days we can pick

17:43

up the phone and say , hey , can you help me unpack what

17:45

happened today and have a voice of reason

17:48

speak into it . I've had voices say

17:50

, natalie , you got to stick it out , you got to see why God has

17:53

brought you here . And then I've had voices say get out

17:55

. And you know you don't

17:57

jump every time somebody tells you

17:59

to do something , but it does help you make a decision

18:01

.

18:02

Yeah , praying about it . And I

18:04

know for me , I was on

18:06

church staff after I

18:08

had been in corporate America and it was such a big

18:11

transition for me because in

18:14

corporate America I was given

18:16

my assignment and I

18:18

did it and it was

18:20

done . And when I got into the church

18:22

environment it was I had so

18:25

many people telling me how to do my

18:27

assignment and that

18:29

was that was . I mean just

18:31

a whole frame of mind , like I do

18:33

need to be cognizant of what

18:36

other people think and how

18:38

this is their church , and so

18:40

I know that it can be . It

18:43

can be really hard to be on staff

18:45

sometimes .

18:48

And I think , too , we have to realize that a lot of our

18:50

staff people aren't lifetime

18:52

Christians . A lot of our staff

18:54

people didn't go to seminary . A lot of our staff

18:56

people did come from corporate America who did

18:59

have high level degrees . So

19:01

you're working with people across the

19:03

board , some who have only been believers for

19:05

a couple of years , others who have doctorates

19:08

and theology , and so how do

19:10

you , you kind of manage a team

19:12

or a staff that is at

19:14

all of these different levels , all these different

19:16

expectations ? I mean pastors have a lot of

19:18

weight on them .

19:19

Yeah , yeah , they sure do . Well

19:23

, in your book you phrase a couple

19:25

different coin

20:21

phrases the hurt and hard

20:23

and the hope and holy . Tell

20:25

us a little bit about the

20:28

relationship between those phrases .

20:31

Well , when I was starting to do

20:33

the Raised to Stay Instagram account that was

20:35

in 2019 . And that was when

20:37

deconstruction was really coming to

20:39

the forefront of social media . And

20:41

what I realized on those accounts is that there

20:43

was a lot of the hurt and the hard . There

20:45

was a lot of the hurt

20:48

, there was a lot of that , but

20:50

it stopped there , and what I realized

20:52

was that we weren't leading people to healing

20:54

. We were just all just bleeding over each other

20:57

. You know just kind of all complaining and

20:59

being frustrated and you

21:01

know going after leaders

21:03

, and while there's certainly a time for exposure

21:05

and there's a time for honesty , there

21:08

was no healing happening . I was like where's

21:10

the hope in all of this

21:12

? Because not all of us want to quit , like

21:14

some people might want to , but not all of us do . And

21:17

so for me , in the book , it was really important that

21:19

we didn't just talk about the hurts and the hard

21:21

and the and the all

21:25

the things that happen when we are in the bad

21:27

place , but that we talk about this hope

21:29

, this living hope that we have , and

21:31

the holiness that comes with

21:34

the promises of our God , who says that

21:36

he will finish everything that he starts , and

21:38

so it was interesting because I didn't have

21:40

a final chapter of the book

21:42

and the book was due in a couple

21:45

of weeks and I was like wait , what is my final chapter

21:47

? And so I get a phone call

21:49

from the church that had hurt my

21:51

family when we were 18 . And

21:53

the new pastors of that church

21:55

were in my youth group at that time

21:58

and they were in the room

22:00

like when everything happened and

22:03

they called me and they said Natalie , we're having the 100

22:05

year anniversary of the church

22:07

. We'd love for you to come back and be one of the worship

22:09

leaders . And you know , I

22:11

almost said no because I was like wait

22:13

, I've healed from that . I haven't

22:15

been back , like why would I go

22:17

back ? And the Lord just was so impressed me on

22:19

my spirit , like finish the book , let

22:22

me finish what I started . And so I

22:24

got on a plane , flew back home , went

22:26

to it and it was incredible . I

22:28

saw all the people I'd grown up with . The pews

22:31

looked the same . Everybody was still

22:33

sitting in their same spot , so they'd always sat

22:35

in . And after we got done leading

22:37

worship , there was a moment in the offering

22:39

time where the pastor went through

22:41

, each of us that was on the platform and introduced us

22:43

and he got to me and he said this is Natalie

22:46

Thomas . He used my maiden name . He said

22:48

her dad was one of our favorite pastors to

22:50

ever pastor this church and the whole room

22:52

went up in applause and

22:54

the Lord reminded me then like they

22:56

never hated you . It was like one or two

22:59

people who made a decision . They were

23:01

just as confused as you were , and

23:03

what you thought was in exile was actually

23:05

an exodus . I kept to you , I protected

23:08

you , I spared your family and

23:10

there was just this aha moment of

23:12

the Lord finishing what he started . I got off

23:14

the platform . All the old ladies were running

23:16

up to me and hugging me and saying things

23:18

like tell your daddy we miss him . Tell your mom

23:20

we miss her singing , Tell your dad he

23:22

was my favorite hunting buddy . I mean , it

23:24

was just this like big boy reunion

23:27

. And do you know , we moved back to Kentucky

23:29

. Since the last time that you and I spoke

23:31

, we moved back to Kentucky and my

23:33

parents attend that church now , and

23:36

so when I talk about the hope and the holy

23:38

, that's what I'm talking about , 30 years

23:41

later , that there would be that

23:43

kind of reconciliation , because that's what our God

23:45

does . So we can't just talk about the heart

23:47

and the hurt . We have to talk about the

23:49

hope and the holy and the healing

23:51

that will come , as we're

23:53

patient with the Lord , knowing that his timing

23:56

and our timing doesn't always line up .

23:57

Yes , yes , and I

23:59

just I applaud you for being

24:03

willing to do something that was

24:05

hard , that you knew it was gonna be hard

24:08

, going back and doing that , but

24:10

trusting God right , sensing

24:12

the movement of the Holy Spirit

24:15

and guiding you in that way . And what

24:17

a beautiful closing

24:19

chapter

24:21

. Well , tell

24:24

us about how you personally

24:26

decided to return to

24:28

church ministry after that

24:30

time of being hurt . What

24:32

was it that influenced your decision

24:35

?

24:36

Well , I was a gym teacher for

24:38

10 years . I graduated from college with

24:40

a kinesiology background

24:43

with physical education as

24:45

my main major , so I went

24:47

into teaching and I was in public schools

24:49

. But there was a church near

24:51

the school where I was teaching , where I started

24:54

to lead worship , and it

24:56

was an entry point back into

24:58

the church for me , this craft

25:01

of writing , of singing , that

25:04

I believe the Lord used as a

25:06

buffer Like I'm gonna let her do something

25:08

she likes , you know , to get her in the

25:10

door of the church . And there was one

25:12

particular situation and when I was

25:14

about 33 , I had been teaching full-time

25:17

, part-time worship leader , full-time

25:19

teacher . And I remember holding

25:21

an audition for the

25:23

praise team and one woman

25:26

came in . She was so excited , she just

25:28

was so prepared and she was awful . She

25:30

was just awful and

25:32

I had to be the one to break the news to her

25:34

that she wasn't gonna make the team . And

25:38

I remember sitting with her and just trying to beat

25:40

her on the bush like in a nice kind way

25:42

to let her know it's not gonna happen , and

25:44

she just starts weeping in

25:46

front of me and it was

25:48

so heartbreaking , I started

25:51

to weep with her and

25:53

it was in that moment that the Lord

25:55

showed me that I still had a deep

25:58

love for his people , enough where my

26:00

heart would break for something that was breaking a

26:02

sister's heart . And that was

26:04

the beginning of me leaving teaching

26:06

and leading into this worship

26:09

space , where I was starting to lead worship more and more

26:11

and I took a full-time position

26:13

and I was 33 . That's

26:15

how many years since college before I was really

26:17

ready to step back in

26:19

. But it was these little altars along the

26:22

way that the Lord used

26:24

to show me that I was ready

26:26

. But for some of us we'll jump right

26:28

back in , but others of us need 10 , 15 years

26:30

, and it's all God's timing .

26:32

Yeah , yeah , it sure is . What

26:36

does the word stay mean

26:38

to you in your book

26:40

Raise to Stay ?

26:43

I'm asked that a lot . My critics

26:46

get on me because they think that I'm telling

26:48

them to stay in an abusive situation

26:50

when I'm not . My heart behind

26:52

that word stay is out of John 15

26:54

. That if we will abide in Christ

26:57

, that he will abide in us , and that if

26:59

we remain in him , he will remain

27:01

in us . And so , in other words , if we stay with

27:04

Jesus , he stays with us and as

27:06

a result of that , we produce

27:08

good fruit . So , even in storms

27:10

, even in hard seasons , even when we're

27:13

tempted to disconnect from the vine , that

27:15

we understand that he is our life

27:18

source , he is our lifeline . And

27:20

even if we can't stay in a church , even

27:22

if we need a season where we're not on a church staff

27:24

or we're not involved in a community though

27:27

I don't recommend being gone for long if

27:29

there is a season we need to take a minute that

27:31

connecting to the vine every

27:34

single day , remaining with Jesus , staying

27:36

with Jesus , is how we will continue

27:38

to bear good fruit , even in barren seasons

27:41

. And so that's really where that word

27:43

stay has landed

27:45

for me in that phrase raised to stay

27:47

.

27:49

And it almost seems like now that we live

27:51

in this zoom world , you

27:54

can still at least maybe watch another

27:56

church or something like that I

27:59

wanna just ask you about

28:01

. You've described a huge

28:03

hurt . There

28:06

are other types of hurts in the

28:09

church and

28:11

that people have they're

28:13

. Maybe they don't like the style

28:15

of worship , or

28:19

that maybe the leadership decided to change

28:21

, or leadership decided to do something else and

28:23

they aren't happy about that . They

28:25

feel , you

28:28

know , it's just a different type of hurt .

28:30

I think when you see your church going

28:34

through changes , what

28:36

would you say to those

28:39

people as far as , like you

28:41

know , staying it's

28:45

hard when you've gone somewhere

28:48

for 25 , 30 years

28:50

and that senior pastor who has married

28:52

you and buried people you love and

28:54

known your kids since they were

28:56

infants I mean it's one of the hardest losses

28:58

when you lose a healthy

29:01

shepherd . And it's really

29:03

hard when somebody else comes in and

29:05

then the DNA starts to shift and

29:08

carpet color changes and pews

29:10

turn to chairs and you know the music

29:12

style changes and with

29:14

all of that I always go back to

29:16

are we called to people or are we

29:18

called to love people ? And

29:21

I think that sometimes we get so

29:23

caught up in who's behind the pulpit , who's

29:26

leading us in worship , the styles

29:28

of things , that we forget that the church

29:30

was never meant to serve us but

29:33

we were meant to serve the church . And

29:35

when we feel that conviction , then

29:37

again we have to go back to , almost like the abuse

29:40

versus hurt conversation . Am I

29:42

in a church that's no longer biblically aligned

29:44

? Am I in a church that's no longer operating in

29:46

that Holy Spirit ? Is this new

29:48

leadership ? Are the changes

29:50

irreverent

29:52

? Are they out of alignment with the Word

29:55

of God ? Or is it just not my personal

29:57

style ? And I don't think

29:59

it's wrong to leave a church because you

30:01

don't like something . I just think

30:03

you have to know that everywhere you go

30:06

, there's going to be something you don't like . And

30:08

so if we love the people

30:11

and we want to serve the people

30:13

more than we want to be loved and

30:15

more than we want to be served , we're

30:17

willing to stay in position and help bring

30:20

about change . And I will say to this

30:22

, to our dear saints , who I know

30:24

you are locked in to some

30:26

things the new pastors need

30:28

you , the new leadership needs you

30:30

, the people who are coming in need

30:32

the saints who have been around for 20

30:34

to 25 years to mentor them , to

30:37

teach them culture , to help

30:39

. And if everybody abandons ship

30:41

, if everybody jumps ship because they

30:43

don't like something , then we're

30:45

really missing out on opportunities to

30:47

disciple the next generation , be part

30:49

of a massive movement of renewal

30:51

and revival . All because of personal

30:54

preference . So it's always a heart check for

30:56

me of why am I

30:58

upset about this ? Is it unbiblical or am I just discontent

31:01

? And Lord , change my heart

31:03

Like it's always a Lord . Search my heart

31:06

before it's there , it's Lord . Search their heart

31:08

.

31:08

Yes , yes , well said

31:10

, I love how you just kind of summarize

31:12

that up heart check . And is

31:15

the church still , you know , biblically

31:17

sound and and , and

31:20

, and . Then let's , let's

31:22

see how things look

31:24

, as far as saying we're going oh

31:27

boy , it's so hard . Well , as

31:31

we start to wrap things up here , why

31:34

don't you just tell us , you know , what

31:36

are your hopes for people

31:38

that read this book ?

31:40

I hope people know they're not alone . Some

31:42

of the greatest compliments that

31:45

people give me words of encouragement are

31:47

I finally feel seen . I feel

31:49

like you . You have been in

31:51

my room reading my journals . You

31:53

know I didn't know other people

31:55

had gone through things like this . I

31:58

pray that people leave the book

32:00

feeling like they can do it , like they can

32:02

finish , but also understanding

32:04

that God has never taken

32:07

his eyes off of them , that even through all of the things

32:09

that they've had to

32:11

walk out and in the book I talk about Joseph and

32:13

I talk about you know Paul

32:15

and the different disciples and apostles

32:17

who went through their own seasons of wondering like

32:21

, where is God right now ? We

32:23

all go through that . So I pray that through the stories of the

32:27

Bible and through my own personal stories

32:29

, that people leave with a better understanding of

32:32

a kind God and a Jesus

32:34

who went to the cross and took

32:37

all of that so that they could run with freedom

32:40

and that they're not continued to be bogged down by unnecessary

32:42

offenses , unresolved

32:44

hurts or , if they've been abused

32:47

, that they would take action and go find a counselor , go

32:50

find a church that will help them heal , but

32:52

just to know that they have as many

32:55

resources as they want

32:57

, spiritually and physically , to be able to get

32:59

back into community and and be able to and be introduced

33:01

to a Jesus . They've been desperate to know .

33:03

Absolutely . Tell our

33:06

listeners about your

33:08

online ministry and how they

33:10

can find out more information about you in your book

33:12

.

33:14

Yeah , our largest community is over

33:16

on Instagram under Raise to

33:18

Stay , just at Raise to Stay . It's a pretty

33:20

vocal community . I oftentimes

33:23

have to turn my comments off because people get

33:25

pretty crazy , but it's a really

33:27

safe space , I think , for

33:29

us to wrestle with hard topics . And then on Facebook

33:31

, under Natalie Runion , you can just follow

33:34

along in the Raise to Stay public group

33:36

. We also have a private group where things are kept

33:38

a little bit quieter on Facebook

33:40

, called Raise to Stay , for those who are looking for

33:42

a safer , more intimate space to have conversation

33:44

.

33:45

That's so beautiful . Well , we will make sure we

33:47

have links to those in the show notes

33:49

Before we go . I have to ask you some

33:51

of our favorite Bible study tool questions

33:53

. What Bible is your go-to Bible

33:56

and what translation is it ?

33:59

I have a journal Bible . That's NLT

34:01

. I love NLT because it

34:03

allows me a little bit of flexibility between

34:05

New King James and the message , which

34:07

I know for studying purposes

34:09

. But I teach out of NLT , but I

34:12

study out of New King James and

34:14

a lot of times for cross-referencing out of

34:16

the message . And I love the journal Bible

34:19

because it gives me space to take notes . I'm

34:21

a big note taker so that's my

34:23

go-to .

34:25

Awesome , okay , great suggestions

34:27

. Do you have any favorite journaling

34:30

supplies , then , that you like to use ?

34:33

Okay , well , I'm a creative , so I

34:35

believe that the holier you're , you know

34:37

, the more colorful your journal

34:39

is , the holier you are . So I love

34:42

, I just love the flare pens . I

34:44

use flare pens all the time , but

34:46

for my Bible I use the Sharpie

34:48

fine tip that does not bleed through

34:50

, because it makes me so mad when they bleed

34:53

through . So I use a Sharpie fine tip

34:55

on my Bible that's a non-bleed through , and then

34:57

I use the flare pens for journaling

34:59

.

34:59

Excellent , yeah , oh , those are great . Okay

35:02

, well , last question

35:04

what is your favorite app or website

35:06

for Bible study tools ?

35:10

I love the Blue Letter Bible . I don't know

35:12

if anybody has ever gone to that , but you

35:14

can get like how to say things in the Hebrew

35:17

and in the Greek . You can get the commentaries

35:20

, you can listen in

35:22

and hear the word Like you can push the little microphone

35:24

and it will tell you like in real time , how

35:26

to say it , especially for teaching

35:28

, when you want to be able to say a word and

35:31

it's authentic , like or authentic

35:33

. I think that's a word . I don't know if that's a word , yeah

35:36

, and it's authentic , sound Like

35:38

it just helps to be able to have that , to

35:41

hear it , so that you know you're saying it right .

35:43

Yes , yes , oh , that's a great

35:45

website , okay , awesome . Well

35:47

, natalie , thank you so much for being

35:50

here today to share your book Raise

35:52

to Stay . We

35:55

just we need a movement of Christians . We're

35:57

willing to allow God to

35:59

use the hurt to mature us

36:01

and move us in a direction

36:03

of perseverance , and to be stayers

36:06

to advance the kingdom of God . So

36:08

thank you for sharing

36:11

that with our listeners today .

36:13

Well , thanks so much for having me .

36:15

All right . If you'd like to go dig deeper

36:17

into this topic , be sure and get a

36:20

copy of Natalie's book . We will

36:22

have the link in the show notes . Lastly

36:24

, head over to the Coffee and Bible Time website

36:27

for our prayer journals . That will help guide and

36:29

document your prayer life at coffeeandbibletimecom

36:32

. Thank you so much for joining us on our

36:34

podcast today . We love you all . Have

36:36

a blessed day .