0:07

Welcome back to the Coffee and Bible

0:09

Time podcast . For those that

0:11

may be listening for the first time , our podcast

0:13

is an offshoot from our main platform

0:16

, youtube . Our channel is called Coffee

0:18

and Bible Time , where our goal is

0:20

to help people delight in God's

0:22

Word and thrive in Christian

0:24

living . We also have a website

0:27

and storefront with Bible studies , prayer

0:29

journals , courses and more . Hey

0:31

Jordan , what a joy it

0:34

is to reconnect with you today

0:36

.

0:37

I always love hanging out with you

0:39

and your daughters . Ellen , how have

0:41

you been ?

0:42

Oh , my goodness , there's so much been

0:44

going on since we last met , but

0:46

I'd like for you to catch me

0:48

up on what's going on in your life

0:50

. Like what would you say ? So

0:53

Jordan and I were in a mastermind

0:55

group together . That's how we met . He's

0:57

an incredible author

0:59

and I'm just

1:02

excited to tell

1:04

our audience like what's been maybe the most

1:06

challenging thing and

1:08

the most exciting thing that's happened

1:10

since we talked last .

1:12

Oh man , it's probably been a year since we connected

1:14

the most challenging thing

1:16

. Oh man

1:19

, it's gotta be finding

1:22

the courage to say

1:24

, yeah , I'm going to publish this book that we're publishing right now

1:27

because , as you know you've seen an advanced

1:29

copy of it I'm

1:31

saying some things that aren't said a lot of times

1:33

in evangelical circles , around the topic

1:36

of faith and work , and saying some hard

1:38

things , and I was just really

1:40

blessed , actually right before Dr

1:42

Keller died . Tim Keller , we

1:44

had a great conversation

1:46

and talking about the contents of this

1:49

book and just my work in general and him just like blessing

1:52

that , encouraging me to just

1:54

, you know , lean

1:56

into the message of this book . And

1:58

so when I think about the biggest challenge and the

2:00

biggest blessing , I think kind of that goes hand

2:02

in hand . The biggest challenge is like finding the courage to

2:04

beg . Yeah , I know we're going to say these things , and

2:07

the blessing is having people like Tim and others

2:09

come around the book . This

2:12

is what the church needs to hear right now . And

2:14

then just more on a personal level , I

2:17

got three young kids right

2:19

, so a very full life . I have three daughters

2:21

who are nine , seven and four .

2:24

And yeah .

2:25

so like there's just like constant challenges

2:28

and blessings wrapped

2:30

up in being a father to

2:32

three girls , I mean you get it . Oh yeah , your

2:34

mama bear .

2:35

Oh yeah , yeah , I have

2:37

three as well , and boy . I just know those

2:40

are busy , busy years . A

2:42

lot going on is they get involved in all their

2:44

different things and yeah , and man

2:46

, maybe , maybe

2:48

you can counsel me .

2:50

We have a therapy session here . It's . What's

2:52

challenging is to push back on

2:54

the cultural assumption of business

2:56

and hurry .

2:57

Yes .

2:58

Right and

3:00

just refusing to be

3:03

in sports six days a week . Right

3:05

, like I just like not the courts

3:07

and listen . That's fine . For for some people I'm

3:09

not I'm not judging other people who are doing that , but , like for

3:11

me and my family , I think I would go crazy living

3:14

that kind of lifestyle . So I feel like

3:16

, by God's grace , we're living at a really sane

3:19

pace and , by his grace

3:21

, this is just like a really fun , sweet

3:23

season . Yeah , yeah , because when they're

3:25

super young it's not fun . I don't care what anybody says

3:27

. Everyone's like ah , you're going to miss the baby years . I

3:31

don't think you are . I don't think you are . When

3:33

they get older , it gets more fun .

3:35

Oh , yeah

3:37

, no , I think you know

3:39

, just

3:41

putting boundaries on your time

3:44

is so valuable especially like

3:46

now that I've come to the point

3:48

in my life where my kids are half moved

3:50

out that you

3:52

know you can't get those years back , right

3:55

, yeah , so I

3:57

, I love that you said that

3:59

you're you're keeping tabs on

4:01

that . That's awesome . Yeah , well

4:04

, Jordan , I'm so excited

4:06

actually to talk to you about this topic today

4:09

, and I think back now about

4:11

I wish I would have read your book , like

4:14

while I was a stay-at-home mom or while

4:16

I was working in corporate America

4:18

, because as I was going

4:20

through it , I just found it so tremendously

4:23

encouraging , so insightful

4:25

. You really turned

4:27

my head a few times as I thought about

4:29

things . So , let's , let's

4:32

jump right in . So

4:34

our goal here today , right

4:36

, is to help our listeners see how

4:39

their secular work matters for eternity

4:41

. Yeah , and

4:43

I found it so interesting that , right

4:46

from the get go , you

4:48

first turned around my understanding

4:50

of the word work . So

4:52

I think it's important for our audience

4:55

because you know we have such a

4:57

diverse , you know , age group here

4:59

students and moms

5:02

and all kinds of people so

5:04

help us understand , like , what

5:06

is this definition of work

5:09

? The Biblical way .

5:12

isten , the Bible doesn't come with a glossary , unfortunately

5:15

, right ? So I think we've got to look to scripture

5:17

for clues as to how God might define these

5:19

terms . And I think if God

5:21

were were , if Jesus

5:24

were sitting here on this podcast and forced to define

5:26

work , I think he would define it a lot more broadly

5:28

than the way that we typically do . We

5:31

typically define work as the thing

5:33

somebody does for income , but

5:35

God's definition of work is so broad

5:38

that in Ex odus 20 is he's handing

5:40

down the 10 commandments . He says that even

5:42

animals work , right

5:44

. The fourth commandment to Sabbath

5:46

is a command for humans to rest and

5:49

animals to rest from their labor

5:51

. So I think the most biblical

5:53

way to define work is

5:55

simply to expend energy in

5:57

an effort to achieve a desired

6:00

result or stated negatively right

6:02

. It's the opposite of leisure

6:04

and rest . And that definition

6:07

Obviously includes what

6:09

you do for pay as a

6:12

marketer or a librarian

6:14

or a teacher or an entrepreneur or whatever . But

6:17

it also includes the work we do at home , doing laundry

6:19

and mowing the grass or

6:22

studying for an exam . All of that

6:24

is work , and I think the story

6:26

we see in scripture is that all of it matters

6:28

for eternity , and that's

6:30

really the crux of

6:32

this new book that we're launching

6:35

out the long way .

6:36

And it's just . It adds so much value

6:39

to your life when

6:41

you think of it this way . So the second

6:43

clarification then that

6:45

also really broadened my understanding

6:48

was how all Christians

6:50

can instantly view their

6:52

secular workplace as

6:54

sacred . Tell us what you

6:56

mean by that .

6:58

Yeah , these terms matter , right . I'm glad we're

7:00

defining terms . This is how every one of these

7:02

interviews should start , Ellen , and you're doing it right . That

7:05

word secular literally

7:08

means without God , with

7:11

no regard to religion , without God . But

7:13

we Christians believe we just

7:15

prayed this before we started recording that

7:17

God is with us literally

7:20

wherever we go through the power of

7:22

his Holy Spirit , and so the only

7:24

thing you listen or need to

7:26

do to instantly make your quote

7:29

unquote secular workplace sacred is walk

7:31

through the front door or log on

7:33

to Zoom . That's it Now

7:35

. I'll say that with a big caveat . Clearly there's

7:38

some work that's off limits for Christ followers

7:40

, right . But I'm gonna go ahead and assume that our listeners

7:43

are not making a living explicitly

7:45

exploiting the poor or peddling pornography

7:48

or something else that overtly contradicts

7:50

God's word . And if that's true and

7:52

you are seeking first the kingdom

7:54

of God , then , in the words of

7:56

the great preacher Charles Spurgeon , nothing

7:59

is secular , everything

8:01

is sacred , because everywhere

8:03

you walk is sacred ground . So for

8:06

me , there's no question of

8:08

the sacredness of the

8:10

seemingly quote unquote secular work our

8:12

listeners do , I think . The more interesting

8:14

question , I think the more life

8:17

changing question , is okay , how

8:19

does that sacred work matter beyond the present

8:22

, because we understand that in the present it's a means of

8:24

loving my neighbors , myself , it's a means of glorifying God

8:26

. But how does it matter for eternity

8:29

? And that's the question . I'm helping readers unpack

8:31

the sacredness of secular work .

8:33

Absolutely well in

8:36

the book that you say that the great

8:38

commission , as we know , is

8:40

great and you're not

8:43

denying that , but you're

8:45

saying it's not the only

8:47

commission . So tell

8:50

us about the great commission

8:52

and the danger in treating

8:54

it as the only commission that Jesus

8:56

gave us .

8:58

Yeah , and I'm glad you

9:00

pointed out that I'm not saying the great commission isn't

9:02

great . I think the great commission is very great . But

9:05

it is a very new

9:07

idea in church history , roughly

9:09

200 years old , that the great

9:11

commission is the only commission that Jesus's

9:13

followers are called to , this call to

9:15

make disciples . And it's really

9:18

problematic for a lot of reasons . I'll just give you three reasons

9:21

why it's so problematic to treat it as the only commission . Number

9:23

one Jesus never did . Matthew 28

9:25

, 19 through 20 said go , make disciples of all

9:27

nations , teaching them

9:29

to obey everything I have commanded

9:32

you to do . And

9:34

the gospels were called Jesus giving us about 50

9:36

unique commands . If Christ

9:39

meant for us to interpret the call

9:41

to quote unquote save souls and make disciples

9:43

as the totality of Christian mission , he

9:45

could have said so , but he didn't . Instead , he

9:48

used his final words to reiterate

9:50

the importance of following the totality

9:52

of his teachings . That's the first

9:54

problem with treating the great commission as the only commission Jesus

9:56

never did . Here's the second . Ironically

10:00

, it makes us less effective

10:02

at the great commission . I

10:06

would argue that for

10:08

the foreseeable future , just

10:11

as it was in the first few centuries of Christianity

10:14

, full-time missionaries and pastors

10:16

are not going to be the most effective people at making

10:18

disciples of Jesus Christ . It's going to be

10:20

near Christians going to work

10:22

Monday through Friday with people

10:24

who will never darken the door of a church

10:27

to hear about Jesus for the first time . But

10:29

when the Great Commission is

10:31

the only one we hear preached in our churches

10:33

and when the only people

10:35

we see on stages in our churches are pastors

10:38

and full-time missionaries , we near Christians

10:40

in the pews inevitably feel guilty

10:43

about working in the very

10:45

places most likely to make disciples , and

10:47

I think most dramatically , that

10:50

guilt will drive people to leave

10:52

those workplaces , but at a minimum

10:54

it will make us half-hearted creatures

10:56

while we stay there . I've

10:59

spent the last two years writing this book about how our work matters

11:02

beyond the Great Commission , and the irony

11:04

is in those two years

11:06

I've shared the gospel

11:08

more than in the 10 years prior

11:10

. Why ? Because when you understand

11:13

how 100% of your time

11:15

matters for eternity , and not

11:17

just the 0.1% of the

11:19

time that you're walking somebody through the Romans road

11:22

. It makes you come fully

11:24

alive , and fully

11:27

alive people attract the loss like

11:29

honey attracts bees . So I promise

11:31

three reasons why it's so dangerous

11:33

to treat the Great Commission as the only commission . Number one

11:35

Jesus never did . Number two why

11:37

, ironically , make it the church less effective at the Great

11:39

Commission when we do this ? And then , finally , and

11:42

most relevant to the topic

11:44

of this book , when the Great Commission

11:46

? When we treat the Great Commission as the only commission , it

11:49

is impossible to see

11:51

the full extent of how our work matters for

11:53

eternity . Because if the Great Commission is the only commission

11:56

, then our work only has

11:58

eternal value when leveraged to the instrumental

12:01

end of saving souls . And if our work

12:03

only has instrumental value , then

12:05

most of us are wasting the vast

12:08

majority of our time . That's deeply

12:10

depressing . More importantly , it's deeply

12:12

unbiblical . And so

12:14

the purpose of this book . Readers

12:16

are listeners right now . They understand that

12:19

their work matters because they get to show the gospel . What

12:21

about the other 99% of your time at work ? How

12:24

does that matter for eternity ? And

12:26

that's what we're really sinking our teeth into

12:28

with this book .

12:30

Absolutely , you know . You

12:32

know more definitions here

12:34

, but it also really helped me when

12:36

you talked about instrumental

12:38

value versus intrinsic value

12:41

, and both

12:43

of those , you

12:45

know , lend additional insight into

12:48

this whole topic .

12:51

Yeah , for sure , and this is kind of what

12:53

we were just talking about . So I define instrumental

12:56

value and I think this is what most Christians understand

12:58

already my work has value

13:00

because , let's say

13:02

, as a barista , right , my

13:05

work is eternal value because I can leverage

13:07

that job as a barista to the instrumental

13:10

end of sharing the gospel with my co-workers

13:12

or writing a check to my church

13:15

. Instrumental value , right , yeah . What

13:17

I'm arguing in this book is hey , yes

13:19

, your work has instrumental value , absolutely

13:21

100% , but it also has intrinsic

13:24

value to God . On the days in

13:26

which you're making a latte and don't

13:28

have a chance to share the gospel

13:30

with somebody , that act

13:32

of making a latte has

13:34

the potential to matter for

13:37

eternity . Right , that's the

13:39

that's the crux of this book .

13:41

Okay , so that's a perfect

13:43

lead into this idea

13:46

of the

13:48

abridged version of the gospel

13:51

versus the unabridged . So

13:53

tell our listeners

13:55

, like what you mean by that . Because

13:57

, wow , this was like

13:59

a pop the cork out of

14:01

the bottle moment for me

14:03

when I read this section .

14:06

Yeah . So the introduction of the book is really

14:08

setting up the problem . It's like , okay , we're treating the Great Commission

14:10

as the only commission . How do we move away from this

14:12

lie ? And I would argue there are two

14:14

thick roots feeding that lie . Number

14:16

one are these half truths

14:18

about heaven that we've begun believing

14:21

in our current day and age . And number two are

14:23

these half truths that we bought about the gospel

14:25

, or what I call the abridged gospel

14:28

, which I would argue is the dominant

14:31

version of Jesus Good news

14:33

preached today . Here's what it sounds like the

14:35

gospel is the good news that Jesus came to save you

14:37

and me from our sins . Listen

14:40

, every word of that statement

14:42

is praise God, gloriously

14:45

true , but it is a tragically

14:48

incomplete and truncated version

14:50

of the gospel , hence the name the abridged gospel . And

14:52

there's tons of practical implications for this right

14:54

, because if the gospel is

14:57

only good news for our souls

15:00

, as the abridged gospel suggests

15:02

, then the great commission to save

15:04

souls and make disciples is the singular mission

15:06

of your life , and most of you are wasting most of your time , including

15:09

myself . Right , but this isn't the good news . This

15:11

isn't the totality of the good news we

15:13

see in scripture . Right , the unabridged

15:16

gospel says that in

15:18

the beginning God created

15:20

a perfect world and invited

15:23

his children to be with him first and

15:25

foremost , and to rule

15:27

over this world with him , filling

15:29

, subduing and ruling

15:31

the earth via the first commission

15:33

that we see in Genesis one

15:35

. Right there in Genesis one , God doesn't

15:38

just call our souls good , he

15:40

calls all of creation , including this

15:42

material world and our work with

15:44

that material world , very good

15:46

. Turn your Bible over to Genesis three

15:48

. We sin , we usher in the curse that broke every

15:50

part of creation . Ensuring our need for a savior

15:53

and Jesus' resurrection

15:55

, fast forward thousands of years , proved

15:57

emphatically that he was the savior

15:59

that God promised in Genesis

16:02

three , who saves us by grace

16:04

, through faith , and while we are not

16:06

say by our works , we have been saved

16:08

for the good works God prepared

16:10

an advance for us to do all along . And what are those good

16:12

works ? Go back to Genesis one , working

16:15

with this material world

16:17

to cultivate heaven

16:19

on earth . And if that's the gospel

16:21

, this indescribably

16:24

great news , not just for my soul

16:26

but for the cosmos , right

16:29

For this material world , then

16:31

we can be confident . This is kind of where

16:33

I land in the book , in this

16:35

dual vocation we

16:37

have in the present yes , the great commission

16:39

to make disciples , but also the

16:42

first commission to make culture

16:44

and make a world that oozes

16:47

God's goodness over

16:49

the face of the earth . Right , there's this lie

16:51

that is crept into Christianity that says that

16:53

somehow , post Genesis three , the

16:56

great commission has replaced the

16:58

first commission . That's a lie , you know why ? Because

17:01

Jesus' blood paid the price to redeem

17:03

the spiritual and the material

17:05

world , to put us back to the

17:07

work we were meant to do from the beginning

17:09

in the garden to cultivate this

17:11

world and make it more useful

17:14

for other human beings' benefit

17:16

and enjoyment . And because of

17:18

that you could start to see how

17:20

100% of your life matters

17:22

for eternity , not just the

17:24

explicitly spiritual tasks

17:26

of evangelism and prayer .

17:28

Absolutely . One of the

17:31

things that you talked about that

17:36

really solidified this for

17:38

me was when you talked about how

17:41

they used

17:44

the parts

17:46

of the earth to create

17:49

things with right , like

17:52

the stones and gold

17:55

, so , and then you refer

17:57

to it , then look at the end

18:00

story , right , the new

18:02

creation , and that's what we see as well

18:04

. Can you just elaborate a little

18:06

bit more on that part ?

18:09

Nobody ever asked about this . It's one of my favorite

18:11

details in all of scripture

18:13

. I'm so glad you appreciated it . Okay

18:16

, so there's this little detail

18:18

in Genesis two that I skipped over

18:20

for years . I'm like I don't know what

18:22

this means . I don't know the relevance , and

18:25

it's a perfect symbol for Christian mission

18:27

. Okay , genesis two , human

18:29

mission , really . Genesis two , 10 through 12

18:31

, says a river watering

18:34

the garden flowed from

18:36

Eden . It winds through the

18:38

entire land of Havala where there is gold

18:40

. The gold of that land is

18:42

good . Aromatic resin and

18:45

onyx are also

18:47

there . Okay , so

18:49

in the second chapter of scripture we find

18:51

these three elements underneath Adam

18:53

and Eve's worksite Gold , aromatic

18:55

resin , which is also translated , pearls sometimes

18:58

. And onyx , which , for those of us

19:00

who are not geologists , is this beautiful , precious

19:02

stone right ? Where else

19:05

do we see these three things in God's word

19:07

? In the second to last

19:09

chapter of scripture this could not

19:11

be more poetic which describes

19:14

the new Jerusalem , god's eternal

19:16

city , as having streets of gold

19:18

, gates made of pearls and

19:21

walls decorated with every

19:23

kind of precious stone , including onyx

19:26

. I've read a lot of

19:28

theologians who argue that these

19:31

materials were placed beneath

19:33

the ground to be discovered by

19:35

Adam and Eve or their descendants for

19:37

the literal construction

19:39

of what would become the city

19:42

of God .

19:42

I think that's right .

19:44

I think this is God's poetic way of

19:46

illustrating the first commission , of

19:48

saying hey , kids , I created

19:50

this world good . I created

19:52

for you to fill it and subdue it and rule

19:54

it with me for my glory and your joy

19:57

. And somehow miraculous

19:59

is the resurrection that would come a thousand years later . Somehow

20:02

, all of your labor is not gonna be in vain . Somehow

20:05

I'm gonna take all of that labor and use

20:07

it to build our eternal

20:09

home . Right , it's just this

20:12

beautiful symbol of what we were meant

20:14

to do in the beginning , what Christ has redeemed

20:16

us to do today . I don't think we're literally constructing

20:18

the new Jerusalem now , post Genesis three

20:20

, but this is what we were made for in the beginning and

20:23

fast forward to our eternal vocation . This

20:25

is what we're gonna be doing forever and ever . Right , I talk a lot

20:27

about this in the book . Eternity is not

20:30

a vacation but a perfect vocation

20:32

.

20:32

Yes , I laughed when I read that . Yeah , I

20:34

love that .

20:35

Yeah , working this earth with King Jesus , without

20:37

the curse .

20:39

Yeah , yeah

21:34

, incredible , incredible . But

21:37

let's talk a little bit about the half

21:39

truths about

21:41

heaven and

21:43

the five whole truths that

21:46

are really relevant to our work

21:48

. You

21:50

don't have to go to all of them , but what , oh

21:53

man , let's no , let's do it , let's

21:55

wait .

21:56

I don't think we can get to all of them . There's so much impact , but

21:58

here's the problem , and I

22:00

had this problem for years . Most

22:04

of us spend more time planning a one week

22:06

vacation than we do

22:08

think it about eternity . What

22:11

happens is that that , inevitably

22:13

, will lead us to settle

22:15

for wishy washy . We have to think about the

22:17

half truths about heaven that are full blown lies but

22:21

are half truths , pedal by culture , rather than

22:23

the epic whole truths

22:25

that we find in scripture , that are

22:27

essential for fueling

22:29

our hope for the future and , I believe , our purpose

22:31

in the present . Yeah , let me just unpack a couple

22:33

of one . This

22:36

half truth that Earth is our temporary

22:39

home , kind of true . The

22:42

whole truth is that

22:44

Earth is our temporary home until

22:46

it is our perfect and permanent one . Contrary

22:49

to what the American end time tabloids

22:51

might tell you , the earth

22:53

is not going to be vaporized like

22:56

the Death Star in Star Wars

22:58

. Right , this is a . This is all

23:00

based on a single verse taken out

23:02

of context and a very , very old translation

23:04

of this passage of second Peter 3 , 10 , where

23:07

it says that the earth and everything in it will be

23:09

burned up . Right , and the scholars

23:11

will tell you , and this is why we see a newer translations

23:13

of the Bible that word isn't there because

23:16

, based on the new manuscripts of the Bible

23:18

that we have the newest manuscripts we have , that

23:20

word isn't in there . The word that's

23:22

there says the earth will be found out , will

23:24

be disclosed , will be revealed , and

23:27

that's consistent with God's character . God

23:29

is not a creator who obliterates

23:32

and destroys . He reconciles and

23:34

redeems . That's true

23:36

of our souls , that's true of human

23:38

bodies . We see the risen Christ and

23:40

I would argue that's true of

23:42

this earth we are . Hope is

23:44

not for a whole new world , but a whole

23:47

renewed world , and more and more

23:49

Bible translations are actually translating

23:52

new earth to renewed

23:54

earth , because that's a far more biblical

23:56

picture of this . Now the listeners asking why

23:58

the heck does this matter ? Here's why this matters

24:01

. If this earth is truly going to

24:04

be obliterated in the end it's going to be

24:06

destroyed cosmic destruction Then

24:08

our work with this material

24:10

world of planting gardens and

24:12

typing on MacBooks made out of aluminum

24:15

from the earth does not matter

24:17

in the grand scheme of eternity . But

24:19

if this earth is eternal and

24:22

the things I'm working with are eternal

24:24

, oh , suddenly my work has a lot

24:26

more eternal significance . So I got a lot more purpose

24:29

in the present and a lot more hope for the future

24:31

, realizing that nobody's

24:33

going to spend eternity in heaven . As we think about

24:35

heaven today , nobody , not one person

24:37

. Heaven will be here on

24:39

earth . That's what Revelation 21 promises

24:42

and that gives us much more concrete

24:44

hope for what it will be like

24:47

to worship with Christ forever and ever . That's

24:49

another half truth in the book , this half

24:51

truth that we will worship for all eternity . The

24:54

whole truth is we're going to worship for eternity by singing

24:56

and by working

24:58

with our hands .

25:00

See Isaiah 65 . Yeah

25:02

, and I

25:05

think , like I

25:07

love how you've dispelled , I think

25:09

, a lot of these half truths

25:11

that people that are so predominant

25:15

even in Christian culture right that

25:17

you know you

25:20

explaining all of that was

25:23

incredibly helpful . Well

25:26

, part of the title of your book , Jordan , is Four

25:28

Ways your Job Matters for Eternity

25:30

. What

25:34

are those four ways ?

25:36

Yeah , let's do it . Number one , you

25:38

work marriage for eternity because it is

25:40

a vehicle for contributing

25:42

to God's eternal pleasure Wild

25:45

thing to think about . God doesn't need

25:47

anything from us , but he allows us in

25:49

our work to contribute

25:51

to his eternal joy . Psalm 3723

25:53

. It says that the Lord

25:55

directs the steps of the godly and delights

25:57

in every detail

26:00

of their lives . God does

26:02

not just delight in

26:05

watching you give money to your church , although he certainly

26:07

delights in that . He doesn't just delight

26:09

in watching you explicitly share the gospel with your coworkers

26:12

. He delights in every

26:14

detail of the lives

26:16

of the godly , which means that everything

26:19

you do at work today , with excellence

26:21

and love and in accordance

26:24

with God's commands , is an

26:26

ingredient to his eternal pleasure . And

26:28

that's the essence of worship . That's the first way

26:30

you work marriage for eternity , all of it , not just

26:33

the explicitly spiritual things . Number two you

26:35

work marriage for eternity because

26:37

it is largely through your work

26:39

that you can earn eternal

26:42

rewards , which we never talk

26:44

about in the church , and these are not

26:46

. We're not talking about earning salvation . We

26:48

are talking about Jesus's incessant

26:51

command not

26:53

just urgent command that

26:56

we chase after eternal

26:58

rewards like treasures , like

27:00

crowns and like increased job

27:02

responsibilities on the new earth . Number

27:04

three you work marriage for eternity because through

27:07

it , I believe , we can scratch

27:09

off the thin veil currently separating

27:11

heaven and earth and reveal glimpses

27:13

of the kingdom of God in the present . That's

27:16

very mysterious and we can unpack that more , if you want to , later

27:18

. And then finally , number four , you

27:20

work marriage for eternity because , yes , you

27:22

can leverage it to the instrumental end of sharing

27:24

the gospel with those you

27:26

work with . In the first few centuries of Christianity

27:29

, it was mere Christians who contributed , according

27:31

to scholars , more than 80%

27:33

of conversions to Christianity . It was not religious path

27:35

, it was not religious professionals , it

27:38

was not pastors preaching in synagogues , it was mere

27:40

Christians working as tent makers and

27:42

his mothers and his marketers

27:44

. Whatever I would argue , the same is going

27:47

to be true today if

27:49

we accept that our work has intrinsic

27:51

and instrumental value to God .

27:56

I just want everybody to kind of like soak

27:58

that in , because it just

28:01

breeds new life into you . It

28:03

really , it really does .

28:06

Well , that's been my favorite . I've been reading all

28:08

these early reviews of the book . I

28:10

have heard a few people say

28:13

this book has made me come up fully alive

28:15

for the first time . Like man

28:17

. Yes , that's the net of

28:19

when you understand that God cares about everything you're doing

28:21

.

28:22

It's not the book .

28:22

It's the biblical truth in the book .

28:23

Yes .

28:24

That free us to embrace

28:27

this work that we've always loved

28:29

but felt guilty for loving right

28:31

. It's a gift from God . I need to light

28:34

in that and I'm just giving you the biblical framework to be like no

28:36

, no , no , no you're . You've known

28:38

in your bones that this matters beyond the Great

28:41

Commission . I'm giving you the biblical evidence

28:43

to support it and the net of that is , yeah , being

28:45

a fully alive human being who , ironically

28:47

, is more effective at the Great Commission because

28:49

you're fully alive .

28:53

Well , Jordan , you mentioned

28:55

in the book

28:57

that your favorite evangelism

29:00

tool is a

29:02

list of launchers . So

29:04

, as you said , the fourth principle

29:07

there was that we can actually evangelize

29:10

. This list of launchers helps

29:12

us have these conversations , and

29:14

I think that that would be a great way

29:16

to kind of wrap things up here with our

29:18

listeners to , like you

29:20

know , give it like some practical tools

29:23

when you're at that point .

29:25

I made a promise to readers in this book that

29:28

the book would not just be interesting but

29:30

that it would be profoundly helpful . Said

29:33

another way , I'm not just going to show you how your work

29:35

matters for eternity , I'm going to show you

29:37

practically how to respond to that

29:39

truth and maximize the eternal

29:41

impact of your work . So there's 24

29:43

practices throughout the book . My favorite

29:46

is this practice of building

29:48

a list of launchers to

29:50

take conversations with the lost from the surface

29:53

to the serious , to the spiritual

29:55

, because I don't know about you on , but if

29:58

not for some intentionality , my

30:00

conversations with my lost neighbors and coworkers

30:02

tend to stay pretty superficial right

30:05

Sure but . I found that , with God's grace

30:07

and just a tiny little bit

30:09

of intentionality , it's pretty easy to

30:11

move conversations towards spiritual things . So this

30:13

is how this works . I have a Google

30:15

doc on my phone it's literally

30:17

just called "launchers and I

30:20

got a list of names in that Google doc

30:22

of people that I am intentionally

30:24

trying to share the gospel with , and next

30:26

to each name I've listed

30:29

out a number of topics to bring

30:31

up the next time I see that person , to

30:33

intentionally steer the conversation

30:36

from the surface to the serious , to the spiritual . So

30:38

let me give you an example . I'm recording this in December

30:40

, a few weeks before Christmas , and

30:43

I'll change names here to protect the innocent

30:45

, but my buddy will call Brian , my buddy

30:47

Brian , he's a Lambs Catholic . Next

30:50

time I see Brian , I'm going to ask Brian , hey Brian , what's

30:53

your family's favorite Christmas traditions ? Right

30:56

, it's a fairly superficial , surface

30:58

level question . But then I'm going to

31:00

ask hey man , when

31:02

did you stop going to Christmas Eve , man , because I know

31:04

you don't go anymore . Right , it's getting a little bit

31:06

more serious . And then I'm going to go to

31:08

the go to the spiritual big hey man , like

31:10

what , where are you at with

31:12

your faith ? I knew you grew up in the church

31:14

I know you haven't been in a long time . Where

31:17

are you at with the question of Jesus ? And maybe ask

31:19

, hey , would you and your family want to come to

31:21

church with my family on Christmas

31:23

Eve this year ? So you see how just a

31:25

tiny little bit of intentionality

31:27

of asking about Christmas traditions with your kids

31:29

that nobody's going to not talk

31:31

about can be intentionally structured

31:34

in a way to move , to launch

31:36

that conversation from the surface

31:38

to the serious , to the spiritual . So , listeners

31:41

, if you want to do this , this is the easiest thing you'll do . It'll

31:43

take you 10 minutes , three steps to building

31:45

your own list of launchers . Step one choose

31:47

where you're going to keep your list of launchers . This could be a Google

31:50

doc , like me . It could be a physical journal

31:52

, it could be a simple note on your iPhone

31:54

, whatever . Step two list

31:56

out the people Shoot

31:58

for five people You're intentionally

32:00

trying to share the gospel with in this season . And

32:02

then step three just next to each person's name , list

32:05

a few questions , a few topics

32:07

, a few conversation starters

32:09

that you think might buy God's

32:12

grace . Lead that conversation for the

32:14

surface to the serious , to the spiritual . So

32:16

the 24 practices in this book . That

32:18

one has been a total game changer

32:20

for me . Specifically , tell

32:23

me be better about making disciples , which

32:26

, again , is only one of the ways I work . Matters for eternity , but it's certainly

32:28

an important one .

32:28

Yes , yes , yes , absolutely

32:31

. And and like you said , there's

32:33

so many other things in this book

32:35

. Listeners , you're going to have

32:37

to get Jordan's book , the Sacredness

32:39

of Secular Work , because , like

32:42

you said , there are so many other

32:44

principles that you can

32:46

put into place . Really

32:48

make sure that you're fully living

32:51

, right Understanding

32:53

that your work matters for eternity .

32:56

That's right .

32:56

Well , jordan , thank you

32:59

so much for joining us

33:01

here again today and

33:03

I just wish

33:05

you all the best on

33:07

this book and I I

33:10

know listeners for you that

33:12

are listening . I hope

33:14

that you feel challenged

33:16

and encouraged

33:18

and have a desire

33:21

to investigate this further

33:23

and check

33:25

out Jordan's book .

33:27

So thank

33:29

you , and I can't wait . I can't wait to see you write

33:31

a book someday . Okay , that's what we're all waiting

33:33

for .

33:34

We're working on it All right , Jordan

33:37

, such a joy to have you with us . We

33:39

are so grateful

33:42

for you listeners . Thank you for

33:44

joining us on our podcast . Have

33:46

a blessed day .