0:00

I think too , when it's just when we're isolated

0:02

with us as a couple , by ourselves

0:04

, you get used to what

0:07

you're living in , and so

0:09

when other people look into it and they say

0:11

that is messed up , you know what I mean

0:13

Like that's not normal , and

0:15

where you're like , wait , this is our normal , but

0:18

someone else with fresh eyes and that's what

0:20

a counselor can do , that's what a small group

0:22

can do it's affirming

0:24

us to saying , okay , I thought something was

0:26

off , and so I

0:29

think we need people to walk alongside

0:31

us . When we're in isolation , that's

0:33

where the enemy gets a foothold in

0:35

our minds , our thoughts , what we

0:37

should do , and so we think that's

0:39

critical in a marriage .

0:48

Welcome back to the Coffee and Bible

0:51

Time podcast . For those that may

0:53

be listening for the first time , our podcast

0:55

is an offshoot from our main platform

0:57

, YouTube . Our channel is called Coffee

1:00

and Bible time , where our goal is

1:02

to help people delight in God's

1:04

word and thrive in Christian

1:06

living . We also have a website

1:08

and storefront with Bible studies , prayer

1:10

journals , courses and more . If

1:13

you've ever felt like your marriage could

1:15

use a bit tune-up a , you

1:18

are in the right place . Joining

1:20

us today are Dave and Ann Wilson

1:23

of Family Life Today , and

1:25

they are here to discuss the Art

1:27

of Marriage , the series

1:30

that has been transforming marriages

1:32

for years . This

1:34

episode is for you if you are

1:36

newly married , if you're a seasoned

1:39

couple , an empty nester

1:41

or part of a blended family

1:43

. Building marriages on

1:45

a biblical foundation matter

1:48

in fostering healthy relationships

1:50

, and families and couples who

1:52

are on solid footing , as well

1:54

as couples who are currently maybe

1:57

experiencing a rough patch , will

2:00

benefit from the knowledge and experience

2:02

shared here today . So

2:04

stick around to learn more about

2:06

setting your marriage back on the

2:08

right track . Dave

2:11

Wilson was the Detroit

2:13

Lions Chaplain for 33 seasons

2:16

, a lead pastor and a nationally

2:18

touring speaker , as well as

2:20

the radio host with his wife

2:23

, ann , of the nationally syndicated

2:25

radio show Family Life Today

2:27

, but it's his singular

2:30

passion for enriching lives through

2:32

spreading the word and wisdom

2:34

of God that truly defines

2:36

him as the co-founder

2:38

, alongside his wife , of Kensington

2:41

Community Church . Dave's energy

2:44

and experience allow him to engage

2:46

with crowds of any size

2:48

. Ann Wilson has

2:50

served alongside her husband

2:52

for more than 25 years

2:55

, co-founding Kensington Community

2:57

Church , speaking at Family Life's

2:59

weekend to remember and hosting

3:02

their own marriage conferences across

3:04

the country . They live in

3:06

the Detroit area and they have three

3:08

grown sons , three daughters-in-law

3:11

and five grandchildren

3:13

. Please welcome Dave and Ann

3:15

.

3:17

Good to be here .

3:18

It's great to be with you . Thank you so much

3:20

for joining us on our podcast

3:22

today . You know , I was

3:24

looking through all of the materials

3:27

that you guys sent over to

3:29

me and I decided

3:31

to check out your YouTube channel so

3:33

we're YouTubers and I thought , oh

3:35

, I'm going to check out and see what kind of stuff you have

3:38

over there . So I found

3:40

a video on there from 14

3:42

years ago called

3:44

Rock , your Marriage and

3:47

Dave . You started off with a

3:49

funny story about how

3:51

you used to drive the minivan on long

3:54

trips and

3:56

just you

3:58

finally got tired enough that you decided

4:00

to let Ann drive . And

4:02

just as you fell asleep , one of the kids

4:05

woke up . I

4:07

thought maybe you would like to share the rest of

4:09

that part of the story .

4:13

Well , that was a long time ago , you

4:15

know . As you said , we already have grandkids

4:18

now . So that

4:20

son that woke up , austin

4:22

, is now a literary

4:24

agent . So he

4:27

owns a company where they represent authors

4:29

to publish yours , so he's our agent , for

4:31

our writing stuff .

4:33

But back in those days . If anyone

4:35

has small kids , you know this

4:37

that the best

4:39

place to be in the car

4:41

when you have small children is

4:43

the driver's seat , Because

4:46

if you're in the passenger seat the kids

4:48

always have needs , and they're hungry or

4:51

they need something or they have to go to the bathroom

4:53

, and so Dave gets really

4:55

tired . All the kids are asleep

4:57

in the back , so when he says

4:59

, hey , do you want to drive ? My answer

5:02

is yes .

5:05

And so I thought I was safe because they were asleep

5:07

, yeah , so I literally

5:09

tilled it back the reclining

5:11

seat and I was going to take a nap and

5:14

I I don't think I even close my eyes

5:16

and my middle son , austin , said

5:18

I got to go pee pee , I got to pee pee and

5:21

we have boys , three boys , so we didn't really

5:23

stop . You know , we just had a Maxwell

5:25

coffee can you know one of those big

5:27

ones that will get on it . And we kept

5:30

driving so and , like you know , elbows

5:32

me like you've got it .

5:34

And also he's only two and a half . He hasn't been

5:36

potty trained that long .

5:38

And I know this , and every mom knows this

5:40

.

5:41

When they say that at that age you've got to

5:43

move quick . And Dave was

5:45

not moving quite .

5:46

I did not move quite quick enough . So by

5:48

the time I turned around he had already stand

5:50

up , stood up , pull his pants down

5:52

and it was coming . And so I

5:54

turned around and the first part

5:57

hit me right in the forehead

5:59

. I got the rest of

6:01

it , but this woman right here

6:03

could not . She laughed

6:05

, or she couldn't even keep the car in the road .

6:07

So funny . But also

6:10

we shared that story

6:12

because sometimes marriage

6:14

can be like that and raising kids can

6:16

be like that . You're going along and

6:18

then just something hits you that's

6:20

really hard to deal with , whether it's whether

6:23

it's a marriage that's struggling , kids

6:25

that are struggling , like outside

6:28

influences that are affecting your family

6:30

or a real trial .

6:32

You know , something devastating could happen to you or

6:35

a family member . And

6:37

yeah , that was the illustration that

6:40

we usually use it for is when you go

6:42

to a marriage conference or read a marriage book

6:44

or whatever , listen to a marriage podcast

6:46

, you can think , oh , everything's good

6:48

. And then you're going to be surprised . Reality

6:51

is going to hit you right in the forehead and

6:53

you got to be ready to deal with it . It's going to be hard

6:56

and God's going to be there and he's going to be with you

6:58

and he's going to meet you . But

7:00

life is life is sort of like

7:02

that . You never see what's coming Absolutely

7:04

.

7:04

Yeah , that's really what I got out of . I think

7:07

your point was that life is unpredictable

7:09

and you know . Based

7:11

on what you know now

7:13

, what advice

7:16

would you give your 14

7:18

years , your younger selves

7:20

that were

7:22

in that video today ?

7:27

I mean , my first thought is you

7:30

don't build a foundation in a storm

7:32

, you build it for

7:34

the storm . So we

7:37

all know the foundation is the most

7:39

important part of any structure

7:41

, especially a house , and so you

7:43

know , when it's calm and when the weather's good , you

7:46

go out and you dig and you build , and

7:48

it's hard work , and then you

7:50

build the house on that and then when the

7:52

storms come , you've got something . I

7:54

mean , so many times we don't have

7:56

a foundation . A storm comes and we want to build

7:58

it then and it's almost impossible

8:00

because you're in trauma and

8:03

in a marriage , you're yelling at one another and

8:05

there's no foundation . So I would say build

8:08

it now , build it while you can .

8:10

And we're saying the foundation is Jesus , it's

8:13

our faith , that's where we

8:15

find stability and hope . And

8:17

I would add to that back

8:20

then I don't think I realized I

8:22

don't think most of us realize , going into

8:24

marriage that every single

8:26

marriage naturally drifts

8:28

toward isolation . That

8:31

just happens in a marriage and we don't

8:33

. I didn't know that . I thought , oh , we're just

8:35

always going to be in love and it's always going to be easy

8:37

. No , it's super

8:39

hard and culture and our families

8:42

, even our kids demands and needs

8:44

pull us apart relationally . And

8:47

so if we don't intentionally

8:49

make sure we're moving

8:51

toward oneness and we have to

8:53

fight for that , we will all just

8:56

drift toward isolation and get

8:58

to the point where we feel like I

9:00

don't really know you , I don't know if

9:02

I really love you the way I used

9:04

to , and that is normal

9:07

and common . I didn't know that either

9:09

. That if you don't work at it , that's

9:11

and everybody deals with that those real

9:13

highs and real lows .

9:14

Absolutely Well . You two are

9:16

part of a group of wise

9:19

marriage mentors whose

9:21

mission is to inspire

9:23

and equip today's couples

9:25

. Tell us how

9:27

you guys , collectively , have done

9:30

that through the art of

9:32

marriage series .

9:36

Yeah , well , one of the tools that

9:38

Family Life developed almost

9:40

15 years ago was

9:42

a six session video

9:45

series called the Art of Marriage . Again

9:47

, this was over a decade

9:49

ago and it was

9:51

unique in its time because it combined

9:54

art whether it be poetry

9:56

or dance or , you

9:59

know , I don't know , skits

10:02

, you know and art with a

10:04

variety of voices on the topic

10:07

of marriage . So it wasn't just one couple

10:09

, it was several older

10:11

, younger , different diversity talking

10:13

about marriage . And you know , when

10:16

it came out Family Life , we really

10:18

didn't know how it could be used

10:20

. And next thing , we know , a million people

10:22

were using it around the world , in

10:24

different languages , either

10:26

as a one day conference at

10:28

a church or a small group in your home and

10:30

bring couples over six nights , six

10:33

weeks in a row , whatever . Anyway , all that

10:35

to say it was time to reimagine or refresh

10:38

it , and because it became

10:40

a little dated , and so we just

10:42

launched , just recently

10:45

, the new art of marriage . It's the

10:47

same but it's not the same

10:49

. It's the same but it's different . The

10:51

same is , there's still art . The

10:54

same is . There's different voices , but

10:57

it's different and it's it's fresh and

11:00

it's really , really good

11:02

. I mean , we were one of the couples they interviewed

11:04

on six different words . It

11:07

ends up being around six different words Hebrew

11:09

and Greek and

11:11

we didn't even know exactly how we

11:14

would end up fitting into it . But we've

11:16

seen them all now and we're just one

11:18

of about six couples that talk

11:20

about these different words and it's really

11:23

, really well done .

11:24

I think one of the things I really like about it , too

11:26

, is the diversity in

11:28

both age and race . I feel

11:30

like everybody will be able

11:32

to relate to it . I

11:35

really love this one of how

11:37

the couples are raw and

11:39

authentic , saying this

11:41

has been really hard or

11:43

we really struggled in this area

11:46

, but they'll give the hope of Jesus

11:48

, the hope of the gospel and what that

11:50

is look like . And I think the other

11:53

thing that I've really appreciated about it is

11:55

that almost all the couples are speaking

11:57

as couples . The old art

11:59

of marriage had a

12:02

few couples , but this

12:05

is mostly men teaching before

12:07

, but this one it has both men and women

12:09

, husbands and wives , talking

12:11

about what this looks like , because we know when

12:14

you're a husband speaking , the

12:16

men are relating , but sometimes it's good to get

12:19

that woman's voice in there to

12:21

say this is what it's like for me it's always

12:23

good it is good and our

12:25

being test is what our

12:28

kids , what our adult kids

12:30

like this who are in their early

12:32

and late thirties and , yes

12:35

, they really love it . We're finding

12:37

that , no matter how old you are , where

12:39

you are , whether you're doing great , your marriage or struggling

12:42

couples are loving this .

12:44

That's so awesome and it's so it's

12:46

so needed . Well

12:48

, the new series includes

12:51

really candid discussions on a wide range

12:53

of topics . Let's say money , for example

12:56

, is one . What

12:58

are kind of the hottest topics

13:00

, would you say , that marriages are facing

13:03

currently , and

13:06

how will the art of marriage

13:09

series help people tackle

13:11

them ?

13:14

I mean , I would say one of the hottest

13:16

ones is the one we cover in the first session

13:18

. The Hebrew word is hesead

13:21

, which means unwavering

13:23

, never quitting , resilient

13:26

love . And

13:28

I mean we live in a day and a time where people

13:31

are giving up . I mean , it's always been true . Divorce

13:33

has always been a part of marriage

13:35

. But man , at unprecedented

13:38

numbers , people are just quitting

13:40

. A ffairs , are

13:43

tearing apart families . How

13:46

do you stay in love when you got

13:48

to navigate through

13:50

one of your partner

13:52

betraying a vow ? So

13:54

that's covered and

13:57

we start right there . Let's go , let's

13:59

talk about how God's love is hesead

14:01

. It's unwavering , even

14:04

when we break our vows . How does that

14:06

, what's that look like in a marriage ? So

14:08

I think that's definitely one of the biggest

14:10

ones .

14:11

We've talked about conflict . Sex

14:13

is in there as we travel around the country

14:16

to that topic

14:18

of physical intimacy . I

14:21

mean , we're so bombarded with the culture

14:23

and what the culture saying

14:25

I don't think most of us have any idea

14:27

what biblical physical

14:31

intimacy or sex is supposed to look

14:33

like in a marriage . And we all carry

14:35

so much baggage from our past

14:37

. And so I like the practicality

14:40

of what do we do with all of that and what does

14:42

God's words say about this ? And

14:45

I do like the end too , because the end gets

14:47

into the now . What Like

14:49

can we use this to

14:52

affect our neighborhood and our

14:54

world ? And we're finding with especially

14:56

couples that are empty nest couples , our

14:58

kids are grown and I think they feel

15:01

a little lost , like now . Now

15:03

, what do we do ? Like we've raised our kids

15:05

, what's the purpose of our life and marriage

15:08

? And I think I like this because

15:10

it really gives you a vision . Oh , you're

15:12

not done yet . God has so

15:14

much more for you .

15:15

Yes , that's so

15:17

, so important . It's interesting because

15:19

my husband and I are kind of just like

15:21

right there at that stage . We have

15:24

one out of the house , two still

15:26

here , but it is it's starting

15:28

to . All those thoughts are going

15:30

through your mind because

15:33

you just are at least for me personally

15:35

, I've been , so you know , devoted as being

15:37

a mom , and that that

15:40

is a big transition . I

15:42

think the other part of that , too , is seeing

15:45

your own kids fall in love . And

15:48

you're like oh , that's

15:50

what you know , that's what that new romantic

15:53

love was like , and

15:55

sort of reminiscing back

15:57

on that , and I think

15:59

that's a perfect time for sort

16:02

of a tune up , as you said . Well

16:04

, Dennis Rady has

16:06

a quote which is your

16:08

marriage may be the most powerful

16:11

statement for the gospel of Jesus

16:13

Christ . Tell us , what

16:15

is that kind of marriage look like ?

16:20

I think in today's day

16:22

and age , I think it looks like . I think it looks like

16:24

weakness . I

16:27

honest , I mean it sounds crazy to say that I

16:29

think the next generation

16:31

, younger couples , are not looking for a perfect

16:33

marriage . They're looking for an authentic

16:36

marriage that has real victory

16:38

and real power in

16:41

Jesus . But we

16:43

share our struggles , we don't hide them , the

16:45

things we've struggled with . I

16:47

mean our books are all our

16:49

podcasts . Every day there's a you

16:52

know it's terrible to say , but we still struggle

16:54

, and so we share those authentically . And

16:57

so I think couples want couples they can relate

16:59

to , but then at the same time , they also want

17:01

to know do you have an answer , do you have ? Do

17:04

you know Jesus in a way that I need

17:06

in my marriage ? And so it's

17:08

both and it's the weakness , but it's the strength

17:11

in our weakness which Paul

17:13

says we find in Christ . So I

17:15

think that's what couples are looking for , and somebody

17:18

I can relate to that doesn't hide their pain

17:20

but sort of says here's

17:22

where we struggle , but here's where Jesus meets us

17:24

in that struggle , and Jesus is the

17:27

one that will meet you as well .

17:29

And I think too , when you look at a couple

17:32

, that when

17:34

you've been married awhile , you see

17:36

everything . You

17:38

see every flaw , you know the background

17:41

, you know the struggle , and so you

17:43

see each other now like

17:46

fully , fully . When you

17:48

get married on your wedding day you're

17:50

not , you don't see everything , you don't know everything

17:52

, but when you can married for awhile , you know

17:55

everything about this person and you're

17:57

still going to love them and stay

17:59

with them . You see it all

18:01

, but you extend grace and you love

18:03

in the midst of that . That's the gospel , that's the gospel

18:05

. Jesus sees our flaws

18:08

, our pain , our failure and

18:10

he continues to pursue us and love

18:12

us . When people see a marriage

18:14

like that , like wait , you

18:16

guys have gone through that and you still

18:18

love each other yes , that just points

18:21

directly to Jesus .

18:22

Yes , it sure does . It sure does

18:24

. One of the topics

18:26

on the list that was

18:28

mentioned was addiction

18:31

, and maybe we have

18:33

some people that are listening here

18:35

today where one

18:38

person , let's say , and the couple

18:41

is experiencing some kind of addiction

18:43

, how can the

18:45

art of marriage help

18:48

this couple and

18:50

when is it time for them

18:52

to , let's say , seek professional

18:54

counseling ?

19:51

I mean , my first response is if a person

19:53

is pondering if

19:56

my spouse has an addiction , I

19:58

would say , automatically you need professional

20:01

counseling . Just for someone

20:03

to say , yes , that does look

20:05

like an addiction . Yes , here's

20:07

what you can do , because it's hard

20:09

in marriage to know . Honestly

20:12

, I think every single person could use

20:14

a wise biblical

20:17

counselor . Not everyone can

20:19

afford that , though , and so to be a

20:21

part of a church where

20:23

you're in a community of believers

20:25

that some are more mature than you

20:27

, maybe they've had more experience

20:30

it's really good to be

20:32

in a circle of people that can

20:34

help you with that , and

20:37

that depends on if the spouse is willing

20:39

to even admit to it or talk

20:41

about it .

20:43

Yeah , I used to say sometimes when I was preaching

20:45

life change happens in circles better

20:48

than rose . So when you go to

20:50

church you sit in rows and that's great , it's

20:52

awesome I'm a pastor , I'm up there preaching

20:54

and it's great that people are there listening . But

20:57

you're not looking at anybody in the eye , you're not

20:59

hearing each other's stories , you're not going to

21:01

get in a small group and sit in a circle . Again

21:03

, it doesn't have to be in a circle , but if you're in a family

21:05

room or a coffee shop or a

21:08

basement , it doesn't matter where things

21:11

are going to happen , because you're going to be able to

21:13

share life on life . And

21:15

anybody's struggling with an addiction . The art

21:17

of marriage ends up just being a tool

21:19

. That's all it is . It's a tool that

21:21

puts people in circles , and

21:24

it's what it does , and it gives you topics to talk about . So

21:26

you pop it in for 20 minutes and it gives

21:28

you a topic , and then you turn to one another and say

21:30

, okay , based on what we just watched , let's

21:33

talk . And somebody that's got a hidden

21:35

sin or a hidden struggle or

21:38

an addiction . It'll take a few weeks maybe

21:40

, but it's going to come out because they're going to feel loved

21:42

, they're going to feel accepted . They're going to

21:44

feel like , wow , there's people here that struggle

21:46

like me . And whatever

21:48

around other people , you think you're the only one , and

21:50

even if you sit in a row at church , you may think

21:52

everybody in my row is a lot better than I am

21:54

. But when you get in a circle and you look people

21:56

in the eye and you get to the place where you trust

21:59

one another , that's where life

22:01

change starts to happen , and that's how addictions

22:03

get broken . They're never broken in

22:06

isolation , they're always broken in community

22:08

, and so this gives you a chance to

22:10

build community .

22:11

I think too , when it's just when we're isolated

22:13

with us as a couple , by ourselves

22:15

, you get used to what

22:18

you're living in , and so

22:20

when other people look into it and they say

22:22

that is messed up . You know what I mean

22:24

Like that's not normal

22:27

. Where you're like , wait , this is our normal , but

22:29

someone else with fresh eyes , and that's what

22:31

a counselor can do , that's what a small group

22:33

can do . It's it's affirming

22:36

us to saying , okay , I thought something was

22:38

off , and so I

22:40

think we need people to walk alongside

22:42

us . When we're in isolation , that's

22:44

where the enemy gets a foothold in

22:47

our minds , our thoughts , what we should

22:49

do , and so we think that's

22:51

critical in a marriage .

22:52

Yeah , that's , that's an excellent point . Do

22:55

you find that there

22:57

is , like usually , one person

23:00

in the couple that really wants to

23:02

do this art of marriage and they're kind of dragging

23:05

the other person along , or

23:07

, you know , is it like , oh

23:09

, they both really want to do it ?

23:13

I think it's so normal to have

23:15

one and , generally speaking

23:18

, not always , but generally the

23:20

woman's . Just we tend to be more aware

23:22

of the relationship , what's going on

23:24

, how we can get better . I

23:26

was so messed up I was like Dave

23:28

needs this so much . You

23:31

know , I don't need it as much as Dave

23:33

, Whereas , no , I needed it just

23:35

as much . But I think that's really

23:37

common . But I do think

23:39

if you can get your spouse

23:41

there , at least to the first one

23:44

, I think everybody will be

23:46

pleasantly surprised . Like whoa

23:48

, these people are just normal people

23:50

. They're messed up , but

23:53

their hope is in Jesus , and I can

23:55

relate to this and the art of marriage

23:57

. It's a very non-threatening atmosphere

23:59

too . It's just normal people .

24:01

And you're gonna laugh . It's pretty

24:03

funny stuff too as well . So humor is

24:05

gonna be something you need in your life .

24:07

but Breaks down well .

24:08

Some ways , I think it's like okay , if your spouse wants

24:10

to go and you really don't want to . It's like your spouse

24:12

is saying let's go work out , and you're like no , and

24:15

then you get in a gym and you do it and you're like

24:17

I'm really glad I did that . Yeah , it's

24:19

the same thing . It's good for me , it's better for me

24:21

. I was , you were pulling me

24:23

all the way into the onto the elliptical

24:26

, but guess what ?

24:27

But it's a lot easier than the gym .

24:30

A lot easier than gym , that's true , that's

24:32

a great analogy .

24:34

Well , what role does

24:36

Biblical knowledge and

24:38

insight play in fostering healthy

24:40

marriages and families ?

24:44

I think it's . It's critical

24:46

Cause again , you know , when we

24:48

first got married I was pretty new in my

24:50

faith . I'd just become a Christian a year or so

24:52

earlier . I had

24:54

no idea at that point . The Bible literally

24:57

had the foundation for marriage , a game

25:00

plan for marriage , how to deal

25:02

with conflict and struggles and sexual

25:04

area of

25:06

your marriage all in the word of God . I had no

25:08

idea it was that practical . So , yeah , we

25:10

think that's our , that's our book

25:12

. We go to the word of God for

25:15

anything but especially marriage . God

25:17

instituted it , he designed

25:19

it husband and wife , man and woman

25:22

and he knows how to make it work

25:24

. And , man , you got an issue , the

25:26

answer for you . There's practical tools

25:28

and advice right in the word of God .

25:30

I just , we just got off a love

25:32

like you mean it , marriage cruise , that

25:35

family life , and I

25:37

was supposed a huge ship , just on

25:39

marriage which is 4,000 , 5,000

25:42

people phenomenal . But I was just speaking

25:44

to the women on this ship and I

25:46

said one of the things

25:48

that has changed my life and

25:50

my marriage is that I

25:53

read the Bible through every

25:55

single year , and I've done it for 18

25:57

years now . And I say it's

25:59

not because I'm spiritual . I want you to hear this . It's

26:01

not because I'm more spiritual , it's

26:04

because I'm desperate , like

26:06

if I'm not in the word , my

26:08

eyes in three days will

26:11

be on myself in three days

26:13

.

26:13

No in one day .

26:15

Because the Bible takes

26:17

you back like , oh , here's my anchor

26:19

, Jesus is my anchor . Jesus

26:21

is my life . I find my hope and

26:24

my happiness and my life through

26:26

him , and the word always reminds

26:28

us of

27:07

that . And so I'm so desperate

27:10

and needy that I have to be

27:12

in the word continually . If not

27:14

, if the word doesn't disciple

27:17

us , the culture will . And I

27:19

don't know about you , but I don't think the culture

27:21

is doing a great job of pointing us to Jesus

27:24

.

27:24

No , no , that's for sure . Staying

27:27

grounded in God's word daily is

27:30

, yeah , keeps yourself in check first

27:32

and foremost , and

27:34

when that's done , then it definitely

27:36

contributes to the better outcome of

27:38

the couple . Well , you

27:41

had mentioned earlier that

27:43

when people do this marriage series

27:46

, they're watching a video , but there are also

27:48

some excellent like companion

27:50

workbooks that go with it and some

27:53

really cool activities that

27:55

can help develop connection

27:57

. Tell us a little bit more about that

27:59

.

28:01

Well , this one's unique in that there's a his

28:03

and her workbook . So

28:06

the wife has her own and the husband

28:08

has his own , and so you take notes

28:10

, you make

28:13

applications and then it has homework . So

28:15

after each session you have whatever

28:18

the time period is between

28:20

sessions . You have time to say okay , it's

28:23

one thing to hear the word , it's another thing to do

28:25

the word . So what's this gonna look like for

28:27

me personally as a husband , for me

28:30

personally as a wife , and then what's gonna look

28:32

like for us as a couple ? So it gives you activities

28:34

to say , okay , if we're gonna apply this , this is

28:36

what it could look like today , and

28:39

then we'll come back tomorrow or next week or whenever

28:41

the next session is , and the same thing will happen .

28:44

Do you have an example of what one of

28:46

those might be like ?

28:49

I mean , one of the biggest ones is what Anne mentioned

28:51

earlier is how do you stop the

28:54

drift to isolation ? Because

28:57

that's natural . Couples

28:59

don't realize this . That naturally

29:01

will happen . You'll drift

29:03

apart . So you have

29:05

to literally intentionally say

29:07

how are we going to build on this ? That

29:09

has to be an action step . So one

29:11

of the biggest things that

29:14

the art of marriage helps you do is say , okay , once a

29:16

week Again , if that's the time

29:18

period between sessions we're going to

29:20

sit on the couch or we're going to sit in the family

29:22

room or somewhere and we're going to talk

29:25

about us , about our relationship , about

29:27

our vertical relationship with Christ and our horizontal

29:29

relationship with one another . And so

29:31

it sort of forces you to say , okay

29:33

, this is an action step that hopefully

29:36

you'll continue to do after you're done with the

29:38

art of marriage . It's like this is something we got to do regularly

29:41

in our marriage anyway , and most couples get so

29:43

busy and they have kids and they have sports and they have

29:45

school and they have all kinds of activities going on . They

29:48

rarely we . You know

29:50

, if you don't put it on the calendar and make it happen

29:52

, you're going to just talk about stuff that

29:55

keeps life going , like your kid's schedule

29:57

rather than how are we doing ? So

29:59

it's sort of like a date night that's

30:01

spiritual in nature but also going to help

30:03

your marriage get better .

30:04

It's funny . We're mentoring a couple right now

30:07

. They're a younger couple and

30:09

they were talking about , like we started

30:11

, they've gone through some trauma , some hard

30:13

things . And so they said we found

30:16

that we were really putting so much time in when

30:18

we've gone through there

30:20

was some infidelity . When we went through that

30:22

we got closer . But now it's been

30:24

a while and we were finding that we're

30:26

not going as deep or intimate

30:28

as we did in

30:31

our conversations and so

30:33

I sent them hey , maybe this Sunday

30:35

you could ask these questions , and this is what

30:37

the art of marriage does . And then I said

30:40

and then pray for each

30:42

other , just a quick prayer

30:44

, like you pray as a wife

30:46

, and then have the husband pray out loud

30:48

. It could take 10

30:50

seconds each , you know , that's it

30:52

. And so she texts me the next

30:54

day and she said I'm just going to tell

30:57

you that we have never both prayed out loud

30:59

. She

31:01

said it was one of the most amazing

31:05

, gratifying things

31:07

that we have ever done as a couple and

31:09

I feel closer to him than I have felt

31:11

in ages , and so it gives

31:13

those practical kind of tools

31:16

that just draw us closer .

31:20

Yes , I completely feel the same way

31:22

. There is something supernatural

31:24

about that sharing

31:27

prayer together like

31:29

that . Well , as we start to kind

31:31

of wrap things up a bit , what

31:34

would you say to a

31:37

couple out there , maybe just even one

31:39

of the spouses , who is at

31:41

the point where they feel like their

31:43

marriage is hopeless ? What

31:46

encouragement would you give them ?

31:50

One of the things I would encourage you to do is

31:53

to fall in your

31:55

face every day before Jesus . What

31:59

I try to do as a woman is I try to figure

32:01

it out , or I blame shift , or I think

32:04

if he would just do this , we

32:06

could have made it . And we've been up

32:08

to a point in our marriage

32:10

. We wrote about it in our book , vertical Marriage

32:12

, where I told Dave I have nothing , I

32:15

have nothing left , I don't have any feelings

32:17

for you , I don't even care if we make

32:19

it or not , and I think that's where a

32:21

lot of people are , and

32:24

we become hopeless , thinking it's never

32:26

going to change . He's never going to change

32:28

. And one of the things that I

32:30

had to do every single day is

32:33

realize Dave is not my hope

32:35

. He was never created or made

32:37

to make me happy . My

32:39

happiness comes from Jesus

32:42

and my walk with him , and

32:44

it's not that I need to work on my marriage , but I'm saying

32:46

that's the first place , that every day I

32:48

fall in my face . This has become a habit since

32:51

that time in our marriage where my

32:53

prayer is Lord , I give you my life again

32:55

. Today it's like in Romans 12 , one and two

32:57

when he says to offer yourselves as

33:00

a living sacrifice . And

33:02

so here I am , Jesus . I can't

33:04

do anything apart from you and tell

33:06

God the truth , because confession

33:08

is telling the truth . I don't have feelings for

33:11

my husband , I don't have hope , I

33:13

don't know what to do . In James

33:15

one it says if any of you lacks wisdom , let him

33:18

ask of God who gives generously Lord

33:20

. I'm asking for wisdom because I

33:22

don't know what to do . I have nothing left

33:25

. I have no feelings and no hope . I

33:27

need you . That's where I would start

33:29

.

33:30

I don't know how I could add anything to that . That's

33:35

exactly my answer as well . You're not going

33:37

to solve your marriage by

33:40

looking at your spouse . That's wonderful

33:42

, and she or he is

33:45

something you care about . But you got to look to

33:47

Jesus first and then look

33:50

inside and own your part of the

33:52

sin or mistakes

33:54

in the marriage and start there . Probably

33:57

, if you're like me , you're pretty selfish and

34:00

so you easily blame your spouse instead

34:02

of yourself and say no , what is my responsibility

34:05

here ? How can I make this marriage better ? And

34:07

at some point and again we're

34:10

answering a complex

34:12

, deep question in just a minute or two

34:14

but at some point forgiveness is going to have

34:16

to become a part of that marriage

34:19

, because I guarantee you've been hurt , you've

34:21

hurt your spouse , and

34:23

at some point you're going to have to fall

34:25

into your face and say I can't forgive God

34:27

. You got to give me the power to forgive and

34:30

he will .

34:31

And we have a . Our book is about

34:34

that vertical marriage and we have a small group

34:36

that goes along with that . If you're at that

34:38

place where you're like I don't know what to do

34:40

, it's funny . We

34:43

gave one to our UPS guy that

34:45

was at our door and he goes hey , I

34:47

don't even know how you did that , but

34:50

anyway gave it to him , and this guy leaves the note , or

34:52

us , or UPS driver put

34:54

a note on the door . Hey , I

34:56

want to thank you because your book has

34:58

saved our marriage . I thought we were getting divorced

35:00

, but we're seeing that first .

35:02

That's amazing , isn't ?

35:04

that cool yeah .

35:05

Those Thank

35:07

you so much for for sharing from

35:09

the heart there , and and

35:11

Dave , both of you just

35:14

that . I think most couples

35:16

will hit rock bottom and

35:19

, like you said , falling on

35:21

your feet , looking towards Jesus

35:23

and and starting with yourself

35:26

is so

35:28

important . And then

35:31

people have the opportunity to start this art

35:33

of marriage program anytime

35:35

. Tell everyone

35:38

how they can connect with family

35:40

life and get started on the program

35:42

.

35:44

I mean , probably the easiest way is familylifecom

35:47

. Everything's there . It's

35:49

our website . You go to a marriage conference . You

35:51

can sign up for one there , but the art of marriage

35:53

and even vertical marriage is there

35:55

. Anything you want , just go

35:57

to the website , type in art of marriage

35:59

. It'll come up and you can get

36:02

it . You can get it today .

36:04

You know it's , it's just streams , it's

36:06

your device and the workbooks will

36:08

be sent to you and you're off our

36:10

radio podcast is called family life

36:12

today and so if you

36:15

go on to podcast or you can also

36:17

find it on family lifecom . But

36:19

we just got done a few weeks ago

36:21

doing like a week's worth

36:23

of conversations about art of

36:25

marriage on a round table

36:27

discussion with some of the speakers and that

36:30

that are on the art of marriage , so

36:32

that could give you a good intro to

36:34

on what could this look like

36:36

and what's what's it . How could it

36:38

help you ?

36:39

Yeah , that's what I think is so super

36:41

exciting is that people

36:43

can start today if they want

36:46

. You don't have to wait any longer . You

36:48

don't have to wait for a specific day for

36:50

a seminar or a conference or something

36:52

. I love that about

36:55

it . All right , well , we will make sure we have

36:57

a link to that in our show notes before

36:59

we go . I want to ask you some of our favorite

37:02

Bible study tool questions

37:04

. People are always curious to know what

37:07

Bible is your go to Bible and

37:09

what translation is it ?

37:13

Well , I have a few different

37:15

things Because I'm reading

37:17

. I read the one year Bible every

37:20

year . I actually just

37:22

and this is just reading , and

37:24

so I like a very easy to understand

37:27

, flowing kind of translation

37:29

. So I use the NLT version

37:31

, the new living translation . It's just an

37:33

easy read . But

37:36

then when I go into like a deeper

37:38

dive , I'll use a study Bible

37:41

. Honestly , I'll dive into a bunch

37:43

of different ones too , just to compare

37:45

those , whether it be the NIV

37:48

, the ESV . I'll

37:52

just compare a lot of them and I

37:54

mean , we have this Bible software

37:57

. That's pretty awesome that you can

37:59

compare them all together that

38:02

Dave uses and has used for

38:04

a long time for his preaching

38:06

and teaching . Yeah , I was just going to add .

38:08

I like them all . Yeah

38:11

, I mean , if I want to study , I'm usually ESV

38:13

and even the ESV

38:16

study Bible or the NIV study Bible

38:18

. But yeah , I have a Logos software

38:20

that I got years ago as a preacher and it

38:22

has every translation

38:25

and hundreds of commentaries and

38:27

dictionaries and psychopedias

38:29

and archeological stuff . Yeah , and

38:32

you know when you really want to take a deep dive , those

38:34

tools . I mean , back in the day I had books

38:37

. Commentaries from Seminary laid around

38:39

my office literally all over the

38:41

floor , and now all of that's digital

38:43

. It's crazy how you

38:46

know you can get that today and you

38:48

can become a scholar if you want to

38:50

, because you can dig in deep . And

38:53

so we use them . We use quite a bit .

38:55

And I would add , for those of you who are thinking I can

38:57

never read the Bible through any year , you

38:59

can also listen to it now . Yeah

39:01

, and there are some amazing apps that

39:04

we can just listen to the Bible . With

39:06

what my kids were little , I was like , are

39:08

you kidding ? I have barely any time to myself

39:10

. But we have different ways

39:12

that we can hear God's word , which is always

39:14

transformative .

39:16

Most definitely All right

39:18

. Well , we will definitely put a

39:20

link to the Logos software

39:22

in there . We use it as well , and it's

39:24

absolutely incredible

39:27

. Next question

39:29

, then do you have any favorite journaling

39:31

supplies or anything

39:33

that you like to use to enhance your

39:35

Bible study experience ?

39:39

I don't have any journal supplies . I

39:42

just take notes

39:44

and I do a lot of it digitally . So

39:47

I'm a paperless guy and I probably

39:49

should use paper . So someday my kids and grandkids

39:52

will see what I'm journaling . It's

39:54

all on my phone , it's all on my iPad , it's

39:56

all on my laptop . So that's sort

39:58

of how I do it , and one of the reasons

40:00

I do that honestly is

40:02

I do the same thing when I'm hearing a sermon

40:05

or a message or a Bible study . I take notes

40:07

digitally because you can send them

40:09

to people . So I used to send them to my

40:11

three sons . Just say hey , I just heard

40:13

this great talk . Here are the notes . And

40:15

the next thing , you know , you have a conversation going back and

40:17

forth , which was easier than sending

40:19

a letter . But now obviously you could take a picture of

40:22

your notes and send it digitally as well , but

40:24

I like to share and then start a conversation

40:27

. So digital notes for me .

40:29

I go in and out of journaling

40:31

, but one of the things I do like

40:33

now is I like the

40:35

Bibles that have

40:37

margins on both sides of

40:39

them so that when I read something

40:41

and God , something jumps off the page , I can

40:44

journal to the side of the Bible and

40:46

then put a date beside that . It's

40:48

fun to go back through and say , oh , look , what God was

40:50

doing three years ago . You know , it's

40:52

fun to see some of those

40:54

things that he was talking to me about

40:57

and also how he's met me

40:59

right there . A few years later

41:01

you can look back and see how God answers

41:03

some of those things that you are going

41:05

through .

41:06

Absolutely , absolutely . Oh , that's

41:08

awesome , all right , well , great tips

41:10

there , Dave and Ann . Thank you

41:12

so much for taking the time to

41:14

speak with our audience today about

41:16

the importance of strengthening

41:19

our marriages . Hopefully , if

41:21

you're listening out there , do it now

41:23

right . Build the foundation , if

41:26

not jump in at

41:28

any point .

41:29

Thanks , thanks , Ellen , for all you're

41:31

doing too . Yep , thank you .

41:32

Thank you and for our listeners

41:35

, consider investing in your marriage

41:37

today with the Art

41:39

of Marriage program . We

41:41

will have all the links in our show notes

41:43

. We love you all and appreciate

41:46

you listening . Have a blessed day

41:48

, thank you .