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Cognitive Dissonance. Every

1:47

episode we blast anyone who gets in our way, we

1:50

bring critical thinking, skepticism, and

1:52

irreverence to any topic that makes

1:54

the news, makes it big,

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or makes us mad. It's

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skeptical. The political.

2:01

And. There is no welcome mat. Today

2:03

is whatever they want or less

2:05

love for them. Warm day, long

2:08

form day as long for been

2:10

a better assess as as a

2:12

States Armory with a male. Friendship.

2:15

Yeah I thought to get one of them as. Fast

2:17

as you sir as their why men

2:19

struggle with friendship in the other one

2:21

is why it so hard for men

2:23

to make close friends. Are. Really,

2:26

You know I want to start with

2:28

the the the one there's There's one

2:30

article here is this business. First one

2:32

is why men struggle with friendship. Wanna

2:34

start here? Talking. About one

2:37

of the most glaring pieces of this

2:39

is is a split The is it

2:41

talks about friendship. From.

2:43

A thirty thousand foot view. but there's also

2:45

a very personal connection with two people in

2:47

it. Or two adult

2:49

male friends. Are one of

2:52

them. It's eventual he comes out as gay,

2:54

but they're very close friends for twenty years.

2:57

And. The other one is

2:59

afraid of being. Perceived.

3:02

As gay yeah I have friends circle

3:04

and by other people. So. The he's

3:06

not as close as I think he might

3:08

wanna be. You know, just be very close

3:10

and and and have that sort of friendship.

3:12

That close friendship and it would the The

3:14

very first thing I want to say is.

3:17

What? A crazy culture we live in

3:19

where we will we are so sort

3:21

of. Subtly.

3:23

Homophobic that we'd rather be lonely.

3:25

Yeah, eight off! We. Talked

3:27

a little bit about this just before the show and

3:30

I thought about the snow's reading the article. And

3:32

I I run Want to make sure, no, no, you're not.

3:34

I want to make sure that that. That I

3:36

don't sound blame me here. Because.

3:39

Like it's not the homophobia.

3:42

And necessarily of the people. It's

3:45

it's that we're living in a

3:47

society. As a society scam taught

3:49

everybody. Men: Women everybody

3:52

to look sideways at close

3:54

male friendships. Yeah, And.

3:56

It has it is really. Created

3:59

a system of. values and rewards for

4:02

things like male stoicism, male

4:04

individualism, male individualism. We

4:09

live in a society that has created a system of

4:12

rewards as well for

4:15

getting most of your emotional needs met

4:18

by women in your life rather

4:21

than men in your life. I know

4:23

so many men, and actually, I'll reverse

4:25

the sentence. I know so

4:27

many women who have

4:30

had men come to

4:32

them when they

4:34

need, when men need, like male friends

4:36

will come to the women in their

4:38

lives when they have something heavy weighing

4:40

on their heart, when they need advice,

4:42

when they need to be vulnerable or

4:44

cry, because men tend to feel more

4:46

comfortable going to, even if it's

4:48

not like they're a partner, men tend

4:51

to feel more comfortable because I think we've been

4:53

socialized that an expression of

4:55

vulnerability is more

4:57

well kept and more well received if it's

4:59

male to female than if it's male to

5:01

male. Because we also

5:04

value so much male to male competitiveness.

5:07

I think that's one of the major things

5:10

about this is the competitiveness

5:12

aspect between males

5:15

is something that makes this

5:18

friendship stuff, I think, a little more

5:20

difficult. What makes things more difficult. I

5:22

try not to compete with my friends

5:24

if possible. That's something I try to

5:26

separate. I try to keep that away.

5:30

Although in some ways, for many

5:32

years, I've been fencing and

5:35

I've been doing sort of competitive fencing for

5:37

gosh, at this point, it's almost it's

5:39

25 years plus, I've been

5:41

doing competitive fencing. And I've

5:44

gotten really close friendships with some of

5:46

the people that I've competed with for

5:48

years and years and years and years.

5:52

But the only competition we do is on that

5:54

field. It's only there. It's never anywhere

5:56

else. It's not like your whole. But

5:58

if you if you're not careful. It

6:00

can it sort of get involved in

6:03

a lot of pieces and a lot of facets your life

6:05

so you got to be careful with it to try to

6:07

keep it in its own place because Male

6:09

competitiveness can can be a big

6:12

it can be a big driving force in your life Yeah

6:14

And a huge what and yeah And it

6:16

can make huge huge waves in your relationships

6:19

If you don't know how to hold on

6:21

to it and and tamp that shit down

6:24

I still fight with myself in my

6:26

own brain about competitiveness in my own

6:28

head often and

6:30

I gotta you gotta you have to learn how

6:32

to control it and I think it's it can

6:35

be a Terrible thing and

6:38

can be a bad thing for friendships And I think

6:40

that that's one of the things that that

6:42

you know And and when you

6:44

it also to we were talking

6:46

earlier about how males In

6:49

our society and I want I do want to

6:51

also mention we're only talking about our

6:54

culture, right? The United States

6:56

culture and I don't know if this Culture

6:59

bleeds over into say

7:01

Canadian culture or UK culture I'm

7:03

thinking of English speaking cultures might

7:05

have a very similar type of

7:08

Way in which they treat men treat

7:10

each other But I

7:13

don't I'm pretty sure it's not it they were certainly

7:15

talking about how it's very common for people to hold

7:17

hands men's to hold hands or to have a Lot

7:20

of contact like holding contact with each other

7:23

in other cultures that it's just not the

7:25

same thing I had a boss who

7:27

was from Columbia and that guy

7:30

would put his hands on you all the time and it

7:32

was very In some

7:34

ways it's off-putting because you're not used to it.

7:36

Yeah, but in his culture For

7:38

him to reach out and grab your

7:41

your forearms while he's talking to you

7:43

is normal He just grab you and talk to you

7:45

like I need to talk to you right now and

7:47

he'll grab you and hold you It's

7:50

not there's nothing to it. But at the

7:52

same time It's a jarring

7:54

thing For us because we're a very space

7:56

oriented culture. We Keep a lot of things

7:58

away from us. Either way, eat

8:01

at a restaurant in the United States, in

8:03

the either the restaurant in Europe and see

8:05

the difference on how the how far away

8:07

tables are from each other, how far how

8:09

much space you have were spaced. Culture Margaret

8:11

right we like your arms length type culture.

8:14

And. To have somebody that close to your

8:16

hold you and to talk to you or

8:18

to walk up behind you and just not

8:20

like massage you or whatever, do anything caressing

8:23

but like to put their hands on your

8:25

shoulders. You. Know uninvited,

8:27

Is. A weird feeling but also. For.

8:30

Him. Totally natural.

8:32

Bread. Guinea. I

8:34

wanted I wanted to. I'm I'm I'm excited to

8:36

talk to you specifically your my closest friend of

8:39

yet when he fight and twenty five years mind

8:41

you know the i mean I my clothes us

8:43

rather twenty eight years I'd say yeah no it's

8:45

been a lot more time a little bit of

8:47

and stuff we're going over thirty grand we have

8:49

asserting what would what would it be would be

8:51

twenty twenty six. No Twenty Six Twenty

8:53

Six Twenty Seven Twenty Six Twenty Six Billion

8:55

Nine Twenty Six We really to become tight

8:58

friends Until until Ninety Ninety Ninety Ninety Eight

9:00

I think is Ninety Eight. So he came

9:02

became site friends and Ninety Eight but we

9:04

met in Nine Ninety Six. Get the Us

9:06

all have known each other very long time

9:09

We right But you're reading it tightens on

9:11

the got really close be became really close

9:13

friends a couple years before my marriage. Yeah

9:15

yeah and you sit up for me in

9:18

my marriage that at my wedding ceremony. And.

9:20

We were close friends all way leading up to

9:22

that and then added draft, Very close friends. Until

9:24

I mean, we've never, we never really. Sort of

9:27

had a moment where we have not really been

9:29

friends. We've been friends a whole the Ivory coast.

9:31

I think. maybe we've talked. At least

9:33

every week since then. Yeah, probably

9:36

Dagger probably. I. As the

9:38

my. Because. I think

9:40

it's important to acknowledge a couple things At least I want to

9:42

visit like. Even though. I

9:44

fully recognize that. Like there's

9:46

a. Hidden. Not.

9:50

So subtle homophobia that

9:52

drives men from. Like.

9:54

Engaging with each other in these intimate

9:56

ways, And. I know that and

9:59

I don't think. That's good. And.

10:01

I'm aware of it. I. Can't imagine

10:03

holding your hand. Know. I couldn't

10:05

right now or less. It's not our culture, it's

10:07

not of how closer And that's why I want

10:10

to say is that lion It's not because I'm

10:12

not com for was or not because I don't

10:14

love you. Guess it's because like. We

10:16

live in the super in there and

10:18

as something that I think this bears

10:20

say sure I think there's a i'm

10:22

wrong headed idea sometimes that gets kind

10:24

of pass around that if you can

10:26

recognize the something com is from a

10:28

wrong headed place that you will be

10:30

able to just immediately overcoming. Yeah and

10:32

because we can't and I as worth

10:34

saying that like I don't believe that

10:36

that's true. I. Think you can work

10:39

really hard if you want you to

10:41

overcome pieces of the records ration. Some.

10:43

People do that more naturally than other

10:46

people. Some people have incentives to overcome

10:48

incarceration because they're in and out for

10:50

yeah, right. And so they're already sort

10:52

of on the outside. So. But.

10:54

Just knowing that something is true.

10:57

And. Is like probably not good for

10:59

us. Does. It mean that

11:01

you just like wake up one day and your

11:03

over. Now You can see that I totally agree

11:06

him at doesn't mean that we can't touch each

11:08

other right as we've heard of I need many

11:10

times. Yeah you know we haven't siege other for

11:12

a while. We'll give each other a hard we

11:14

say no or I first saw you have to

11:16

the pandemics, death and like I gave you a

11:18

visitor. Young at heart lies you target miss Cnn

11:20

and then you know there's been times we've been

11:23

hanging out especially for drink and I throw my

11:25

armor a couple times that would talk in more

11:27

than once. I mean Gospel Daily. Many monuments, you

11:29

know, like you know I don't. Feel like

11:31

the. Ways in which

11:33

men show affection in our culture is something

11:36

that we've shied away from. We knocked on

11:38

those all of the things he a culturally

11:40

acceptable, culturally acceptable types of things all the

11:42

time. But. The way in which men

11:44

show cops, show section and other cultures we just

11:46

don't do for us it's not our culture right

11:49

because. Like me walking up see when

11:51

grabbing your forearms and talking to. You

11:53

is not anything I've ever done to

11:55

anyone and it right jarring. I've never

11:58

even thought my wife right. But

12:00

in their culture, it's a thing they

12:02

do, right? So for them, it doesn't

12:04

matter whether it's a male or female,

12:07

they would do it to whoever, and

12:09

that's how they communicate. Cool, but we're

12:11

not in that culture. We're here. And

12:14

our culture is very different. The

12:16

thing that I wanna point out too is

12:18

that I can still get

12:20

a very fulfilling friendship and still have a

12:23

very fulfilling, with a person who I love, we've said

12:25

that to each other, a lovely man all the time.

12:27

We say it to, we have another very close friend

12:29

of ours who's like the third month it's here for

12:32

us, who, you know, circle has

12:34

been a tight friend of mine, even a

12:36

little longer, love him like a brother too,

12:38

for years and years and years and years.

12:40

And so the three of us have been, we met

12:42

at the same time. And

12:44

I wanna talk about how to meet friends too

12:47

later, because I think that's important, how you meet

12:49

people. But, you know, we

12:52

have had this tight

12:54

relationship for a very long time where

12:56

we have had, you know, those

12:58

moments where we, you know,

13:00

talk to each other very intimately about like our

13:02

thoughts and our feelings and things. And

13:05

it's never been, I've never felt in

13:07

my life that I didn't

13:09

have a male friend I could go to for

13:11

advice. I never felt in my life

13:13

that I could, there was a male friend I couldn't

13:16

confide in, right? Because I've had tight, tight

13:18

male friendships. And there's other male friendships other

13:20

than you two that I have that are

13:22

very close, tight male friendships as well.

13:25

So I don't feel like what

13:27

they say in this article where they're talking

13:30

about, they're sort of lamenting about, oh, you

13:32

know, in our culture, guys can't

13:34

touch each other. And in some ways they're saying, well, and

13:36

they can't really confide in each other because of that. And

13:38

I think it's sort of, it seems like

13:40

those two things are connected. They're not at all.

13:43

They're not, but I will say that I think

13:45

that we are, in

13:47

many ways, unusual. Oh, I don't

13:49

disagree. I don't disagree. And

13:51

I've seen so many men, and this is a,

13:53

it is a crisis point. And like, it's something

13:55

that women complain about a lot too. There's

13:58

So many men who don't have, The

14:00

male friends. Other than drinking

14:02

buddies or fishing buddies, right? Yeah, they've

14:04

got. They've got male friends that they

14:06

are able to engage in activities. Were.

14:09

What? Did they don't have any emotional

14:11

connection or intimacy with. Because.

14:13

They paid me out no homo right? Like they

14:16

don't want to do that or whatever the reason

14:18

I don't want to like make fun of those

14:20

people because again were raised in the soup. The

14:22

were raised sir. So like. I

14:25

think that I think that is

14:27

much more usual for men. To.

14:30

Ask the women in their lives to

14:32

do all the emotional labor sure of

14:34

maintaining that friendship. You know the it

14:36

like. And. That's a really shit place for

14:38

women to find themselves. Like. As

14:40

a result of men's inability to.

14:43

Be. Comfortable connecting with each other.

14:45

And. I I do know bunch of men that

14:47

like they don't have strong male friendships they have

14:50

like. Buddies. And I think there's

14:52

a big difference between a buddy in a frat. You

14:54

know, any mean, like a buddy is somebody that you.

14:57

Hang. Out with and if you don't see him for six

14:59

months you you forget their name and you know you just

15:01

like yeah I'm in like if I ever see so and

15:03

so again like that. I'm. Not going

15:05

to be upset about it, you know, but like a close

15:07

friend, it's like. By. I've got

15:09

of a close friend of mine from.

15:12

My. Friend map out in California. I.

15:15

Haven't seen Mat now in

15:17

person. Since. I

15:19

was best man at his wedding. It's.

15:22

Been five six years. Something like that. I texted

15:24

him every week. yeah we stay in touch like

15:26

I know what's going on in his life by

15:28

knows going on his heart. Duke's we talk talk

15:30

yeah yeah you know and like I think that

15:32

that's unusual on his part of why like those

15:35

relationships are so treasure Sure I think in part

15:37

because I'm Mike. Dash. It's unusual, man

15:39

like, I don't think that a lot to do their

15:41

able to do that. And. I think these

15:43

articles. Really? Speak to that crisis

15:45

point where men are been so. Socialize.

15:49

Into that competitive stoic. Kind.

15:52

Of attitude that they they. They

15:54

don't know how to ponder connect

15:56

because there's a confusion about like

15:58

bonding and connecting. And like.

16:01

Romantic. Love. Yeah. Right? And

16:03

like I don't think it is actually doesn't

16:05

necessarily have to be confusing at all. But.

16:07

I think. Socially. We've told people

16:10

that it's confusing. And. If you

16:12

love somebody. As. A man,

16:14

it's romance. Yeah, I gotta be a friends

16:16

with benefits. We gotta. Get

16:18

that you. I mean, How many people? It's.

16:20

So funny guy. I like how many men.

16:23

Won't. Get a massage by a male missives.

16:26

even though like you just getting like a

16:28

sports your first because it's like whoa like

16:30

all touch should come from. Sure,

16:32

legacy be male female? Yeah, you know,

16:34

yeah, but that's highly normal discomfort. I

16:36

I I think that people would probably.

16:40

Shy. Away from a maybe a guy given

16:42

ama of. Cutting. Their facial

16:44

hair, their hair to yeah some way to they

16:46

might be a my baby.hair so much. What the

16:48

beer they have to touch with your clothes photo

16:50

say as when they pull us over might be

16:52

that some people are like no, I don't want

16:54

to do that with a i don't want to

16:56

have a guy do that. I'm.

16:58

Older, the. The They. Don't have

17:01

a male doctor grab their balls which

17:03

is a sell out on how far

17:05

as what do you think about. The.

17:08

The. Idea about

17:10

meeting people. And

17:13

meeting people with commonalities I

17:15

got. Think about how we

17:17

met. And how we met our

17:19

good friend circle. And. It was

17:21

because we all were in involved

17:23

in philosophy. Yeah, we all liked

17:25

philosophy and we all liked. We

17:27

all wanted to thank. For. A

17:30

little bit I think are a whole high

17:32

school. careers were all full of. Not.

17:34

That and it became an opportunity to

17:36

have conversations we were not our our

17:38

had before. Conversations. About things

17:41

that we were interested in. An.

17:44

Average day she's we've been looking yeah long,

17:46

long time and we found a group. It

17:48

wasn't just us three, it was a whole

17:50

know how de Blasio on that we became

17:52

pretty close friends with. for about it I

17:54

would see me about five or six years

17:56

after college right? Because it was a junior

17:58

college for all of us. And for

18:00

about five or six even after university. We.

18:03

we were so also pretty got a seat

18:05

with in communication with all those me more.

18:07

I'm an I think that

18:10

those. Those. Where's the clearly

18:12

created some of the greatest friendships of my

18:14

life, right? I've had close friends, you know,

18:16

my whole life. You know you near a

18:18

kid and then you work your way through

18:20

high school or whatever. But after when I

18:22

went to junior college. I.

18:24

Met friends that I've been friends with for the

18:26

rest of my life since then. Yeah, and I

18:29

think like because of something that we were, it

18:31

was an activity that I think we were all

18:33

really involved in. A really enjoyed. Yeah

18:35

I I I think a lot about. Like.

18:37

The problem of finding. Friends.

18:40

In your sort of middle of your life.

18:44

And I think about it because like I am

18:46

in a place where. I. Have I

18:48

work from home? I don't see people serving officer

18:50

so like there are. There are parts of my

18:52

life where I do get like kind of lonely

18:55

or like I like big parts. my for my.

18:57

Fucking. Like I have left this house and

18:59

four days. You know, five days. like I am

19:01

like kind of a little surprising. And

19:04

so it's something I just think about. This.

19:06

Article talks little bit about it's something I've thought

19:09

about you, Is it a lot of friendships? Are

19:11

a function of time. When.

19:14

Were younger. We have a lot

19:16

of. Downtime time to

19:18

just spend. And then we

19:20

can spend it on other people. We can

19:22

build relationships. Building relationships. Six lot of us

19:24

does a like I remember it because I

19:27

I courted my wife in my thirties. Or

19:29

you quarter your wife when you are in

19:31

your twenties. It takes

19:33

an enormous amount of time. To

19:35

build a relationship from scratch like it

19:38

was like kind of all consuming. To.

19:40

Build a relationship from scratch. It's

19:42

not much different to build friendships from scratch, it's

19:44

just that, like and were younger, It does

19:47

it feel that way. In the same in the same

19:49

way because we have so much more free time shirt.

19:52

And. when we were young i think it was

19:54

like oh we'll just hang out as interesting

19:56

observation yeah because it yet he there were

19:58

so much hanging out the i'm Remember, like

20:00

now all of my hanging out is planned.

20:03

I don't just drop by Tom's house

20:06

and then just get a beer out of your fridge

20:09

and sit down on your couch. I just don't do

20:11

that. Although in our 20s, that would have totally happened.

20:13

It would have happened with regularity with

20:16

certain groups of people. And

20:18

I think that that's a very different place

20:20

that you're in as you get older and

20:22

it does get more and more difficult,

20:25

but that also means that you've got

20:27

to go do those things that

20:29

then get those introductions in. You

20:33

met a close friend of yours because you worked

20:35

out together. Yeah. Right? So you and Matt, you're

20:37

just talking about Matt, you're best man in his

20:39

wedding. You're best man in his wedding because you

20:41

worked out that you had a thing you did

20:44

together. Activity, shared activities are

20:46

so important. Like building friends has got

20:48

to be something you look at with

20:51

I think if you want to do it as an adult, I

20:54

really think you've got to look at it with the

20:56

same kind of intentionality as finding someone to date. Yeah.

20:59

I really just have to say, okay, I want to make a friend and

21:02

I'm going to have to do the things that

21:04

I would do if I were going to meet

21:06

any other person with a relationship. I'm going to

21:08

have to go places where people are likely to

21:10

share common interests. And I'm going to

21:12

have to meet a lot of people and I'm going to

21:14

have to like kiss a lot of frogs, so to speak.

21:17

And that's true for like Matt is a great

21:20

example. He's become a good friend. Other people that

21:22

I met in that same community have all fallen

21:24

off. You kind of like weed through and

21:26

weed through and weed through and weed through. So

21:28

I think it's not much different, but I

21:30

think there's like the best way to do it is

21:32

like, all right, we've got to bound around activities

21:34

because I know I'm going to carve out the

21:36

time. And I know like when that's such a

21:38

resource right now, and I know this other person

21:41

is going to carve out that time. And

21:43

I know they'll have something in common. Right. Yeah.

21:46

That's how I met people through fencing for years

21:48

and years. They carved that out of their schedule,

21:51

right? It was a Tuesday night practice. We got

21:53

to meet, we got to hang out. It was

21:55

Saturdays at a big event somewhere in another place,

21:57

another state. That's how we got to hang out

21:59

was because. We. Had. Those times

22:01

that we all carved out of our schedule. same

22:03

thing goes for work and out. You work out

22:06

everyday for thirty at the same gym, right? You're

22:08

going to get a chance to be around those

22:10

same people. It's Five Am. You're going to know

22:12

the five A M True right? Another six Am

22:14

crew. Are you going to know the seven Am

22:16

true? Are you going to know that noone for

22:18

you want to iterate as early by the end

22:20

up meeting internet bye bye bye to have that's

22:22

not my was it back on my aunt lives

22:24

that were the five Am for and I was

22:26

like go fuck your face you buy am Five

22:28

Am I am still broken that is. I put

22:30

this together. In that short amount of time I

22:33

don't like myself. If I had five A

22:35

I'm like okay, let's be friends. I'll fucking

22:37

kill you or your there is but there

22:39

was. But there are so many things in

22:41

my life like little pieces and I think

22:43

you've gotta find something you're passionate about. He

22:45

knows yet the things like he's I grew

22:47

up with people that you the say I

22:49

want to start potency, get a decent, you

22:51

really love, get a decent and really want

22:53

to do. You. Know I really want

22:55

to talk to my friend right? right? Yeah,

22:57

that's what this whole show it is with

22:59

the city was only lot of shows out

23:01

there that pretend where people pretend they're friends

23:03

are close friends. are you know they might

23:05

know each other kind of. but there's this

23:07

is a French citizens like this is a

23:09

know shit. Really afraid of Ralph? What did

23:12

you know very much what you'd other shows

23:14

me script a lot of friends that are

23:16

a habit that are real friendship Zero there

23:18

they they know love each other. they probably

23:20

would both be okay around and I show

23:22

these are but then I close friend. right?

23:24

This. Is this is a different type

23:26

of experience and this is the things

23:28

that we've. Done for since the very beginning

23:30

and I think. You've. Just

23:33

like when you're starting a podcast, your passion

23:35

about something. The same thing here gotta be

23:37

passion about what you're gonna go do so

23:39

that you can meet other people who have

23:41

that same passion so it's so easy to

23:43

carve that same as one. I I think

23:45

doing that to create that. regularity of

23:47

cons access to think about like why it's so

23:49

easy to make friends when you're at school you

23:51

see him everyday a mass deaths know it's so

23:53

easy to make their friend of for thirty gym

23:56

you see him every day and monday tuesday wednesday

23:58

thursday what are we going to see him If

24:00

people make friends, oh, my besties at work.

24:03

Why do you think your besties at work? Because they're at

24:05

work and you're at work and you're there together. Time

24:08

is such a big function of this. So

24:10

like you've got to nurture a relationship with

24:12

time. I think it's the biggest thing you

24:14

have to feed a relationship with. If

24:16

you don't feed time into a relationship,

24:20

and that doesn't have to be in person. It can

24:22

be from afar. It can be over, you know, playing

24:24

computer games. It can be any way that like, that

24:27

satisfies two pieces. I'm not trying to

24:29

prescribe that. The only thing I

24:31

would prescribe though, is like a regularity of

24:33

time. I have thought so

24:35

many times over

24:38

the last 17

24:40

years now, how lucky

24:42

I feel that we started this

24:44

show or before everyone's a

24:46

critic. Because it forces

24:49

me to do what I'm not good at,

24:51

which is to carve out time. I

24:53

am the biggest sacrificer of time for

24:55

one thing to the other that anyone has ever

24:57

met. I'd be like, I'll just, I'll do

24:59

that next week. I'll put this off and I'll do this

25:01

other thing. I'll run this errand instead. I'll go do that

25:04

other obligation, whatever it is all

25:06

the time. This, this

25:08

carves out time that I

25:10

think in many ways has like solidified

25:13

a friendship into adulthood. Not

25:16

solidified, but has continued to friend with

25:18

adulthood. Yeah. That

25:20

like, I don't know. I'd see you every week.

25:22

Otherwise, I don't know that I'd be like, every

25:25

Thursday we'll have dinner. I don't, I don't, I

25:27

don't have as close a relationship

25:29

with, with our friend circle because of his,

25:32

we're not as close. We don't see each

25:34

other. We see each other. We actually, funny

25:37

enough, do a thing every two weeks. We

25:39

have a gaming night that I go to

25:41

see him every two weeks. And

25:43

I See a crew of friends that I

25:45

also met in junior college that all go

25:47

to his house and we play role-playing game,

25:49

a role-playing game. Um, that now we're playing

25:51

Star Wars, but we played Deadlands, we played D

25:53

and D, we played whatever it is, whatever the

25:56

person who's running wants to play. We Played role-playing

25:58

games at his house. Doing it.

26:00

Since. We're in college. Right right is

26:02

the know it game has been going. These games

26:04

have been going on since college so you know

26:07

I'll Yeah, I go over his house every couple

26:09

weeks and we play a game and then I'll

26:11

see him and I'll see his family and I'll

26:13

see those. Friends that I met like

26:15

I said at Jj see years. And

26:18

years and years ago at the magic

26:20

table we'd play magic at the ring.

26:22

Perfect I will heal again. Another thing

26:24

that introduce me to have a very

26:26

close friend of ours for many years

26:28

in a I got introduced to him

26:30

playing magic, the gathering them and and

26:32

that person one of living with you

26:34

I'll and yeah I mean here's somebody

26:36

was very glad very be so again.

26:38

it's like that the activity is that

26:40

world around us where the things that

26:42

really turned us into close close friends

26:44

and those you can't say enough about

26:46

some of those. Things that brought

26:48

us together. Exactly

26:51

what is known as a better way to do

26:53

them. Like bundling your home

26:55

and I saw as there

26:58

are still hiring someone a

27:00

more his yeah no instead

27:02

of doing is assess. So think

27:04

the better way bundle home and auto and

27:06

says of the twenty five percent off or

27:08

not they do vary by state and are

27:10

not available in every state saving up to

27:12

twenty five percent of the country by dapper

27:14

to the maximum available savings of the home

27:16

policy. Also vehicle and property insurance company and

27:19

affiliates not like Illinois I. Think like to

27:21

do. It here the I think one of

27:23

the things that you have to do that I've thought about to is

27:25

that. We. Have to decide that

27:27

certain time is sacred. In.

27:30

All the way. Yeah, yeah, so good, right? So

27:32

like. Thursday. Nights are just

27:34

indisputably say guess who does your nobody

27:36

in my Isis. Ever.

27:38

Posted Thursday night, right? My kids, my

27:41

wife. Nobody pokes a Thursday night. Is.

27:43

Thursday night doesn't happen. It's because somebody a

27:45

sec. Yep, that's it. Will be sick or there's

27:47

a vacation go around. it'll world has closed

27:49

down. Yeah, somebody would have that happens. I'm on

27:52

the phone. you know, like something, but something has

27:54

happened. To sift it, it's gotta be a

27:56

big deal. I. Do think that.

27:59

you know as we at older and our obligations pile

28:01

up, at least for me. And,

28:03

but I see it other places. I think,

28:05

I think it's easy to sort

28:08

of sacrifice the sacred for

28:10

the practical, for what's, you know, like, Oh,

28:12

is this expedient? I've just, just this once.

28:15

And people do that and their friendships fall away.

28:17

And I do think, you know, I've read other

28:19

articles about friendship, um, not just male friendship, but

28:22

friendship in adulthood. And there's this

28:24

like desert period in people's lives in the

28:26

thirties and forties where family

28:28

and work takes the place of friendship.

28:30

Sure. And then they find themselves later

28:33

in their later years, lonely

28:35

or reestablishing an entirely new

28:37

friend circle in their later

28:40

years. And some people who

28:42

successfully find that new friend circle in their

28:44

later years are very, very fulfilled. Other

28:47

people that are less successful in doing

28:49

that are very, very lonely. And

28:51

all the studies on flourishing and

28:53

happiness seem to suggest that the

28:55

most important thing for happiness and

28:57

flourishing is close intimate relationships

28:59

with an S. Yeah. Yeah. Not just one.

29:02

Yeah. You got to have many of them.

29:04

Yeah. And I think, you know, draw

29:06

off the ones you have to create more.

29:09

You know, that always helps. It's, it helps

29:11

you to see what, you know, what you're

29:13

involved in here can help

29:15

you become a better friend in other

29:17

places. And I think, you know, we

29:21

talk about, you and I have, I think

29:24

we have deep conversations on the

29:26

podcast. So we get a chance

29:28

to really talk about, maybe

29:30

you can talk about the intimacy of morality

29:32

in some ways, because that's a really intimate

29:34

part of who you are. Right. Yeah. That's

29:36

a good point. So you and I have

29:38

conversations about morality all the time. It's just,

29:41

it's just posed in politics and

29:43

in, you know, what would be

29:45

humanism. Right. No, it's posed in different,

29:48

it's not, you know, a blatant structure

29:50

about the philosophy of morality. It,

29:53

it has a, but their values,

29:55

but their values, exactly. Their values,

29:57

conversations, and those are intimate conversations.

30:00

You don't have those, you wouldn't have that with

30:02

your Uber driver normally. Right, yeah. Normally, I'm not

30:04

gonna say all the time because there's been times

30:06

I've been in a cab and I've had some

30:08

weirdest conversations. But for

30:10

the most part, you don't have

30:12

those conversations, those deep, deep conversations.

30:16

It's also useful to find a thing that

30:18

allows you to have some of those deeper,

30:21

deeper, more meaningful conversations. You

30:24

know, you were talking earlier about fishing or whatever

30:26

and my whole life going fishing, everybody always just

30:28

told you to be quiet, you can't talk because

30:30

you'll scare the fish away or whatever. So

30:32

it's not a thing you can do while, you know,

30:34

if you had like a movie club or something you

30:36

went out with, you would never talk to anybody. You

30:38

would just go to the movie and then that's it.

30:40

So you've gotta have something that there's at least an

30:43

interaction with and you can have some

30:45

of these more intimate conversations because that's the important

30:47

part of friendship. It is, and I think that

30:49

that's something men do a bad job at a

30:52

lot. When I look at like stereotypically

30:55

male bonding activities, the

30:59

ones that jump out to me off the top of

31:01

my head are things like golf. You

31:04

cannot have a real conversation

31:06

golfing. It's one of the things I hate

31:09

the most about golf. It takes four

31:11

or five hours. Jesus Christ. And

31:13

you're not having a real conversation because you

31:15

get in the cart, you drive

31:18

to the next hole, you're looking for your

31:20

ball, the other guy's looking for their ball.

31:22

You're like maybe some full camera's answer, it's

31:24

distracted. Then you get to the hole, you

31:26

can't talk while somebody's putting, you can't talk

31:28

while somebody's gonna take their swing. You're busy

31:30

getting something. You don't wanna fill up,

31:33

if you wanna like make a friendship and actually

31:35

like deepen and strengthen a friendship, it

31:37

cannot be full of things that

31:39

you're constantly doing that don't give you opportunity,

31:41

like your point. And men do a bad

31:43

job of that. We do things

31:46

that are so physically active and distracting a

31:48

lot of times when we get together with

31:50

other men that we don't have

31:52

a chance to like get to know who

31:55

the other person really is. We get jokes,

31:57

we get banter, we get like surface shit.

32:00

Yeah. And I'm thinking about, I

32:02

got a chance to meet a lot of cool people

32:04

while I was working out, but I never was while

32:06

I was working out. It was always after for the

32:08

beer. Yeah. It was always going next door for the

32:10

beer or that Friday night when everybody from

32:12

the gym was going to go get together,

32:14

then you got a chance to meet those people and

32:17

know those people. But while you were working

32:19

out, you didn't have those times to talk or

32:21

have conversation or have a banter

32:23

or a good back and forth. Think

32:25

about watching the big game together.

32:27

Something's happening. Something's always distracting you.

32:30

Something's always interrupting the action. There's

32:33

so many things that you can choose that

32:35

are bad things that you choose that won't

32:37

allow you to have an

32:40

intimate conversation. So it's something to think

32:42

about that if the activity

32:44

itself doesn't allow for it, at least there's

32:46

an after activity that it does allow for

32:48

it. You've got to have that time because

32:50

if you don't, then what you have is

32:52

a person who makes it

32:55

so you're not lonely on the golf course. Yep,

32:57

that's right. And it's funny because my

32:59

buddy Matt, we became friends exactly the same way.

33:01

There was like a routine kind of group

33:04

of people that would hang out in

33:06

the evenings after workouts. And Matt

33:08

and I started going to these things. We started getting together

33:10

and hanging out. One thing I would

33:12

suggest that you notice a great way to

33:15

force not force, but a great way

33:18

to have conversations is to drive places

33:20

with people. Yeah, right, man. When

33:22

we were younger, how many conversations,

33:24

how many great conversations that really

33:27

deepen your understanding of somebody in a way because

33:29

you're in a car. That's it.

33:31

This is what you've got to do. Take a fucking road

33:33

trip somewhere. If you're going to like, if you

33:36

want to have a friendship and you want and Haley made

33:38

met her best friend this way. Yeah.

33:40

Haley just, you know, somebody, somebody was having something

33:42

that was, there was an activity and she

33:45

belonged to this dance

33:47

organization and somebody was like,

33:49

oh, this is going to be this photo shoot. It's like an hour and a

33:51

half away. And Haley was like, I'll ride

33:54

with somebody. And she purposely put herself in the

33:56

car with somebody and she drove and the other

33:58

person was in the passenger seat. Seat mad

34:00

three hours the cardigan I'll talk and he became

34:02

best friends. You gotta talk and that's how we're

34:05

Yeah you know driving is a great way to

34:07

to create to great that opportunity in a in

34:09

the sensing organization I'd like to the Us. yeah.

34:12

I've. I've I drive within a

34:14

several state area so on a weekend

34:16

I may drives Ohio row to a

34:18

fencing events. And I have very close

34:20

friends for many years who would go with me. They

34:23

get in the car, I'd pick them up with our

34:25

house at six in the morning and we drive. To.

34:27

Toledo, right? And you know we'd have all

34:30

that day. we'd hang out, sometimes we'd get

34:32

it a shared rumor, a room next to

34:34

each other in a hotel than the night,

34:36

and then come back the next morning. or

34:39

we drive back late night and you have

34:41

those long conversations. the great. Amazing

34:43

long com and you have to talk about

34:45

that you can't right listen the radio or

34:47

what the weather the about a bright you're

34:50

constantly talking about something. Great. Conversations with

34:52

so many people However, long road trips and that

34:54

I I love a road trip because of that.

34:56

because you get a chance to to talk to

34:58

somebody for a extended period of time get When

35:00

you and I went hunting were hunted gray area

35:02

and I get sick of five and a half

35:04

hour drive down to where we were going and

35:07

I let. I enjoyed the drive every bit as

35:09

much as I enjoyed accept any other part of

35:11

that only we the great and it was. It

35:13

was a ten hours in a car with India

35:15

four days when it was all risk. It was

35:17

awesome and I genuinely that's a good measure and

35:19

you have to new and that you have to.

35:21

Think about that suicide nether carvel right away.

35:23

Harder in your adult life to give up

35:25

a whole weekend to do something that happens

35:27

to be you. Oh, four hours in a

35:30

car? Somewhere. Four hours in a car Summer.

35:32

But you. Know I'm reminded to have

35:34

some images I saw just this last weekend.

35:37

Of. People who look like they were really

35:39

getting a chance to have a great time

35:41

at the American Atheists Conference. Yeah. And

35:44

what a great way to meet

35:46

people. have a very like mind.

35:49

In. A situation where morality

35:51

and I'm you know your

35:53

values are being discussed right

35:55

openly with a group. Of

35:58

people you're in the same room with them. you

36:00

might be drinking what them afterwards you with

36:02

them for a whole weekend. That's.

36:04

A great way to meet people to is something

36:06

like that. So yeah I did that. we met

36:08

plenty of people. I mean I am become close

36:11

friends of the but I bet if you know

36:13

I went every year there's people who you would

36:15

might want to see even sooner than a year.

36:17

and a lot of that like be a lot

36:19

of it as a function of distance or realize

36:21

that it's just a function distance. But yeah, I

36:23

agree with that completely. I. Like. So.

36:26

Much of this comes down to use. Gotta

36:28

put yourself in places where the people. That.

36:30

You wanna talk to? have time to talk

36:32

to them, You know? I'd. Like

36:35

it's It's not like go into a

36:37

big loud bar. Yeah, like a fucking

36:39

loud sports bar. Like that's nothing like

36:41

that's a win. Is that nothing? If you like it, it's

36:43

fine. Do the things that you like. What? I'm

36:45

saying like you're not going to be able to create

36:47

that depth of friendship that way. So.

36:50

This other article I want to talk about

36:52

it or quickly. I'm this New

36:54

York Times why It's so hard for men

36:56

to make close friends. And. They have

36:58

in it. On. Several little

37:00

pieces of advice and I

37:02

wanna just sort of read

37:04

some of these larger pieces.

37:08

Practice. Vulnerability, even if it

37:10

makes you uncomfortable. And.

37:12

A time when it's you, read these

37:14

two paragraphs here. Though.

37:17

Mr. Figures mindful speaking in generalities,

37:19

he believes the challenges some and

37:21

face and meaningful platonic bonds boil

37:23

down to how the been socialized

37:25

to quite masculinity was strength, competitiveness

37:27

and stoicism even as traditional gender

37:30

norms of shifted. Those. Qualities from

37:32

a close friendship Tricky. If

37:34

you look at boys, the pretty open an

37:36

affectionate with each other and then something happened.

37:39

Said Fred Rabinowitz the chair of the Psychology

37:41

department University of Redlands and the author of

37:43

Deepening Group Psychotherapy with Men Stories and insights

37:45

for the journey. Suicidal. Messages

37:48

teach them that openness and emotional

37:50

vulnerability or taboo he said. natalia.

37:52

that leads rights What we're talking

37:54

about with that competitiveness names because.

37:57

This. makes you somebody who's gonna

37:59

lose You're going to

38:02

lose this. If you show that

38:04

vulnerability, you show that weakness, you're not

38:06

as competitive as you could be.

38:08

And those things tie together really tightly

38:10

and they form sort of a toxicity.

38:14

They really do. They form

38:16

a toxicity that makes

38:18

people not experience

38:20

a natural emotion of

38:22

being vulnerable. And it's only, it seems

38:25

to be primarily, I don't want to say only,

38:27

it seems to be primarily with men that the

38:30

focus on strength as

38:32

a masculine trait negates

38:36

or is mutually exclusive with

38:38

other men from vulnerability. And

38:41

I think that that's, it's just dishonest,

38:43

right? We know that it's dishonest, right?

38:45

Like it's a sign of real strength

38:47

to be able to be vulnerable. But

38:49

that's not how we code it. And

38:52

that's not how we hide it and express

38:54

it. What we do instead is we show

38:56

a stoicism, we show a shield of strength

38:58

instead of actual strength or pretense or a

39:01

performative strength. And because that's kind

39:03

of what men demand of other men in

39:05

order for us to like not be made fun of.

39:07

And we learn these lessons pretty young.

39:09

We learn these lessons really, really

39:12

young. Like it is a

39:14

true that like young boys

39:16

are touched less, cuddled less, held

39:19

less, comforted less. And

39:21

we start teaching these messages to little

39:23

kids right away. And

39:26

it's really hard to just grow up and be like,

39:28

well, I'll just do something different. Have

39:30

you seen a difference at all in

39:32

any of the younger generation? Because you're in touch

39:34

with some of the younger generation. Has it changed

39:36

much? So different. I think it's,

39:39

I think it is

39:41

and it's not. I'm worried. I'm very

39:43

worried about this generation. The

39:45

worries that I have, I think we've spoken about this

39:47

a little bit on the air, is that as these

39:50

norms around masculinity have begun to shift

39:52

and gender norms have begun to shift.

39:55

And I think that that's overall a good thing. I

39:58

think a lot of the focus, very rightfully. Boy.

40:00

Has. Been on telling young boys what not

40:02

whatnot you? Yeah, we don't fill in a

40:04

lot of the gaps is what they should

40:07

do and how they should be. I think

40:09

a lot of really toxic. Shitty.

40:11

Past filled those those spaces. The

40:13

Guy you're Tate's the Jordan Peterson,

40:15

their save come In and sat

40:17

in the absence of other a

40:19

broader social messaging that says yes.

40:22

I. Will fill your head with these other

40:24

yes, Is this more Plates were dates bullshit

40:26

right? Like all that horrible evil toxic shit.

40:28

what is that even mean the more you

40:30

eat the model and more played you back.

40:32

I'll let him. I like it's a stretch.

40:34

Yeah, like it's yeah. I'm an

40:36

alcoholic and eliminate him as when

40:38

I go not allowed. yeah I

40:40

got down got physicists have that

40:42

hard part of a really toxic

40:45

get a Allegro valid it's own

40:47

that as at the setting is.

40:49

Put. On the other hand, I

40:52

do see I heard that that that

40:54

that is walk back like six plate

40:56

full effect of what's that lady lady

40:58

what's up on carried out from the

41:01

but I be them may have that

41:03

I'll feed you have this is. Amazing

41:07

but I do see or the other hand

41:09

I do see the this sort of polar

41:11

opposite nights in a feels like there's not

41:13

much in the mid air. him and the

41:15

polar opposite I really like like the polar

41:17

opposite is. Like Really?

41:19

Sensitive young man who are not at

41:21

all afraid to be censored and not

41:23

at all afraid to express a certain

41:25

amount of sensitivity. Vulnerability be on themselves

41:27

Yeah, would not have been acceptable when

41:30

I was their age. Yeah, well as

41:32

it's heartening, the other did a thing

41:34

that is also. An.

41:36

Interesting thing to see his

41:38

I'm. Reading. And

41:40

seeing that gens he feels lonely

41:42

as it is. Yeah, because of

41:45

covered. How it took a bunch

41:47

of people away from each other

41:49

and. There's. Been a lot

41:51

of gens the that was isolated

41:53

and they're not sure how to

41:55

reintegrate with each other end so

41:57

that isolation even though there may

41:59

be. some people who can

42:02

experience that vulnerability, the isolation might be

42:04

the thing that prevents them

42:06

from actually getting those friendships. You know what

42:08

I mean? I do, yeah. Yeah,

42:11

there's real problems with that, you know,

42:13

with the face-to-face contact.

42:16

Yeah, I see that definitely with my

42:18

boys and it's something that I'm

42:21

worried about. Like I think the pandemic did

42:23

not do them favors. Yeah. Like

42:25

it did not do them any favors, so. The

42:28

next one is don't assume

42:30

friendships happen organically. And so

42:32

this really just means like work at it. You gotta

42:34

do the work. You can't just be

42:37

like, you're not gonna, you know,

42:39

just like you're not gonna just walk into a place

42:41

and fall in love with somebody. The same thing's not

42:43

gonna happen. You're not gonna walk in and become best

42:45

friends with somebody. Right. Right, that's just us,

42:47

that's not how it works. That's not how any of this works.

42:49

You've gotta work at it. It's not

42:52

gonna just happen. And the more

42:54

passive you are, to be honest, the

42:56

easier it is for somebody to just walk away. I mean, I've

42:58

had so many friends, I don't know if you've had this, but

43:00

I've had a lot of people

43:02

who I've been close with or closer with that

43:05

just fell off the map because there's never been that,

43:07

it's not a two-way street. No one's working, yeah.

43:09

There's parties aren't working. There's no work, right? So I

43:12

might've done some work initially, but

43:14

if that work's not reciprocated, then

43:17

it's not anything you're gonna wanna keep doing

43:19

the work for. I was

43:21

pretty close friends with a guy that

43:23

I went to culinary school with. I thought he was a

43:25

really nice guy, he was fun to hang out with. I

43:27

enjoyed him and his wife going

43:29

out to dinner with them. He was always

43:32

funny. And we had very wildly different sort

43:34

of political views, but he was a really

43:36

nice guy. And we were tight friends

43:38

for a couple years. And then just

43:40

after a while, there wasn't

43:42

any back and forth. There wasn't any, neither of us put

43:44

any time in. And then now I have no idea where

43:46

he is. I literally couldn't tell you if he's dead or

43:48

alive right now, I don't know. But he was a close

43:50

friend of mine for a couple years. And that's happened

43:52

to me with many different friendships throughout

43:55

my life. And I think a friendship

43:57

is... a

44:00

relationship like any other. And

44:02

what I would add to this is just

44:04

like you would consider, or you should

44:06

consider, making

44:09

yourself as appealing a prospect as

44:11

possible by being as good a

44:13

person, interesting. Like if you're going,

44:15

if you're seeking to find a romantic partner, right?

44:18

You would naturally put your best foot

44:20

forward. You would naturally want to be

44:23

as interesting as, you know, whatever your best

44:25

traits are, the things you would want to

44:27

put out there, because you're trying to

44:29

attract somebody. With friends, it's

44:31

the same thing, right? You're trying to attract somebody.

44:33

So I think it is worth thinking

44:36

about when you're trying to make friends with

44:38

an intentionality, what kind of friend am

44:40

I trying to attract? What are the qualities in

44:42

a friend? I want to slut. All

44:47

the same intentionality that should go into finding

44:49

a romantic partner, you know, like

44:51

who should I be in order to attract that kind of

44:54

person? That's the kind of

44:56

intentionality that will land you the highest quality

44:58

of friendship, the deepest friendship, I think.

45:00

Yeah, no, I don't disagree. And I think,

45:03

you know, friendship is a two-way street.

45:05

It's a two-way street. And this next

45:07

piece really calls to that. It says

45:09

harness the power of casual check-ins. And

45:11

that's something that you've just got to do with your friends. You've

45:13

got to check in with them. Tom

45:15

is really good about that. Tom, always, almost always,

45:17

I get more texts from Tom than I send

45:20

to Tom. I'm not a texter. You're not a

45:22

texter. So I don't. And I'm also not

45:24

a phone guy, really. But we also see each

45:26

other every third of the week. And

45:28

we talk on Mondays, too, because we record citation

45:30

needed. So we talk and see each other multiple

45:32

times a week. But

45:35

with your friends and with other people, you've

45:37

got to go out there and reach out

45:39

and do that reaching out. I had

45:42

a close friend of mine recently had

45:45

a casual check-in with me when

45:47

he was vulnerable. I'm not feeling great. We haven't

45:50

talked to him all. Can we talk? And

45:53

I had an opportunity to talk to him. And

45:55

then we set up another recurring chance for us

45:57

to see each other. And so that sort of...

46:00

thing is so important because

46:03

the casual check-in is the way in which

46:05

you stay in that context. If nobody's making

46:07

that outreach, then then it

46:10

just disappears, dissipates. You'll forget about

46:12

each other. Like you were saying, you

46:14

won't put the time aside. You won't put the time aside.

46:16

I would add to that because I 100% believe in that.

46:18

And like, don't be embarrassed

46:20

if you have to put those check-ins

46:22

in your calendar. I

46:24

am the dumbest person that's ever lived. Cecil

46:26

knows this. If I don't put something in

46:29

my calendar, I'll never do it. It's like,

46:31

yeah, it's like, it can't happen. It literally

46:33

can't happen. If Tom

46:36

didn't put the eclipse in as a calendar calendar, it did

46:38

not happen. It did not happen two

46:40

days ago. So I put in, I

46:43

put stuff into my calendar. Like if I find out

46:45

somebody's going to have, uh, we've

46:47

got a friend of ours that, that is struggling with

46:49

some, with some health issues. So when

46:51

I know that she's got like a big doctor's

46:54

appointment or something, I'll see something on Facebook. I'll

46:56

put it in my calendar and check in with you

46:58

that day. And then it'll be like, beep, beep, send,

47:00

you know, just say like, send so-and-so a text message.

47:02

Hey, hope everything went great today. It's all you gotta

47:04

do. It takes 10 seconds. It means

47:06

so much to people to do. I've put shit

47:09

like that all in my calendar constantly. It's

47:11

a thoughtful thing that requires

47:15

very little effort, but had an

47:17

amazing return on your friendship. Because

47:19

if something big, I, uh,

47:21

every time there's a big event in my life,

47:23

I will get a text from Tom. It doesn't

47:26

matter what that big event is. Tom will remember

47:28

to text me if it's my anniversary, if it's

47:30

my calendar. Remember, but like,

47:32

but like you put it in there

47:34

and it's, and it's birthday or, uh,

47:38

anniversary, or like, if I go in for surgery,

47:40

Tom's going to send me a text that day.

47:42

I know that's going to happen. And, and that's

47:44

because that sort of thing shows that

47:47

he cares, but also is like, you, like you

47:49

said, it's an easy thing. It's not

47:51

like, Tom's not going out. I mean, it's

47:53

five calories of energy and four seconds of

47:55

time for him to quickly type something out

47:57

and send it. But it means a

48:00

lot. Even just that tiny little bit of effort

48:02

means a ton. And like when you get

48:04

something like that, it means like, hey, you're

48:06

on somebody's mind. Absolutely. It feels nice. Feel

48:08

like you want to feel seen. Everybody wants

48:10

to feel seen. It feels good. All

48:18

right, so we hope you enjoyed that conversation. We

48:20

hope you enjoyed the stories that were for this

48:22

week. Like we said, patrons got a chance to

48:24

hear Tom read them. If you're a patron, you

48:26

can go check those out. They got posted on

48:28

Tuesday. If you're not a patron, you can become

48:30

a patron and go listen to those stories. All

48:33

right, that's going to wrap it up for this Thursday

48:36

episode. We've got Monday with a new

48:38

episode. We will also still not be

48:40

on YouTube. They keep taking our videos. One

48:44

by one. They're chipping away. Like they'll just

48:46

find some random like this week at 641.

48:48

We took it down because of four

48:51

seconds of the skeptics creed with a bad

48:53

image of. Oh, my God.

48:55

Keep taking it down because it's fucking YouTube. It's

48:58

fucking amazing. So we're still not on YouTube. We're

49:00

looking at early May entry, maybe

49:02

late May, something like that. But we're probably not

49:04

going to do any live streams until then. So

49:07

we're probably going to skip the live stream next week. But

49:09

we're going to be back on Monday with a full

49:12

show. So come back, hang out. And

49:14

we're going to leave you like we always do with the skeptics

49:16

creed. Crudulity is not

49:18

a virtue. It's

49:21

fortune cookie cutter mommy issue.

49:23

Hypno Babylon bullshit. Couch

49:26

and scientist and double bubble

49:28

toil and trouble. Pseudo quasi

49:31

alternative acupunctuating pressurized stereo gram

49:33

pyramidal free energy healing water

49:36

downward spiral brain dead pan

49:38

sales pitch late night info

49:40

dacu-tainment Leo Pisces

49:43

cancer cures detox reflex foot

49:45

massage death and towers tarot

49:47

cards Psychic Healing

49:49

crystal balls Bigfoot Yeti

49:52

aliens, churches, mosques and

49:54

synagogues, temples, dragons, giant

49:57

worms Atlanta's dolphins, truthers,

49:59

birthers, witches, wizards, vaccine

50:02

nuts same and healers

50:04

Evangelist conspiracies doublespeak, stigmata,

50:07

nonsense. Expose

50:09

your size, thrust

50:12

your hands bloody.

50:14

evidential, conclusive, Doubt

50:17

even this. Information.

50:31

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